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View Full Version : John McEnroe, Mary Carillo, Ted Robinson: Sprem Knew It


CJ07
Jun 26th, 2004, 09:32 PM
Watching NBC. Lord knows they're going to harp this up till the next week. But really watching that for the 139752 time....it really does look like Sprem knew it.

tennisIlove09
Jun 26th, 2004, 09:33 PM
As previously said, regardless of what happens for the rest of the event, the Venus-Sprem match is THE highlight of Wimbledon 2004. Not because of the tennis, or the match itself, but because of the second set tiebreak.

harloo
Jun 26th, 2004, 09:35 PM
The tennis in the match was great and very competitive, but the controversy adds more umph to the match. This will continue to be discussed for a long time. ;)

Đ@ŪeLess
Jun 26th, 2004, 09:37 PM
oh americans, get over it

Joana
Jun 26th, 2004, 09:38 PM
And so what if she knew it? Oh yes, she should have followed Roddick's example and tell it to the ump. Andy knows all about it, as he's been in those situations hundreds of times and always behaved like a saint he is. :rolleyes:

CJ07
Jun 26th, 2004, 09:39 PM
As previously said, regardless of what happens for the rest of the event, the Venus-Sprem match is THE highlight of Wimbledon 2004. Not because of the tennis, or the match itself, but because of the second set tiebreak.
I agree. Unless Serena loses, this will be the memory everyone has from Wimbledon 2004

SilK
Jun 26th, 2004, 09:39 PM
it's true, it's a match to be remembered a long time.

just like we're still talking about the Hingis vs. Graff match.
the Serena vs. Kim match (Aussie Open 2003)
the Serena vs. Justine match (RG 2003)

ys
Jun 26th, 2004, 09:40 PM
Yeah, maybe. They don't even realise that by stating that kind of stuff they insult Venus Williams. Equivalent of saying that "Venus is much dumber than Karolina Sprem".

Crazy Canuck
Jun 26th, 2004, 09:43 PM
Sprem is every bit as responsible as Venus is. If you blame one, you have to blame the other. Or, you're a complete tard with no credibility who is not worth listening to.

And, Cool Canuck... the FBI isn't investigating it, they were in on it and are trying to cover their tracks :)

lizchris
Jun 26th, 2004, 09:43 PM
Yeah, maybe. They don't even realise that by stating that kind of stuff they insult Venus Williams. Equivalent of saying that "Venus is much dumber than Karolina Sprem".
Good try, but not so.

Venus wasn't the one who hit the ball out and then was told she was tied 2-2 in the tiebreak.

cool bird
Jun 26th, 2004, 09:44 PM
THE FBI KNOWS IT TOO AND THEY'RE INVESTIGATE.
So is scotland yard

gweeny
Jun 26th, 2004, 09:45 PM
Watching it again, I believe she Knew it. And Venus also knew it, but I don't know why Venus did not argue or complain.

I can't imagine how Sprem must be handling it. Unfortunately, her tennis career has been tainted. All she had to do was report it, and I'm sure she would have still won the match.

!<blocparty>!
Jun 26th, 2004, 09:48 PM
enough is enough, cant we let it rest plz.

SJW
Jun 26th, 2004, 09:48 PM
i believe this will be forgotten soon enough. just a hunch.

jenny161185
Jun 26th, 2004, 09:50 PM
Sprem was told she was 2-2 in the tiebreak?yes. But she didnt exactly walk over to deuce court , she hit a second serve, you can t just come in and blame Karolina like you cant blame Venus. Get over it.

CJ07
Jun 26th, 2004, 09:50 PM
Maybe you should speak for yourself and a couple of others. :awww: Because except the American medias, people have move on with this match or will soon.
when I say everyone, I say the media.
The 2003 French Open is only remembered for the "hand", not the tennis.
I think this might trump that....atleast in terms of significance.

GoSandrine
Jun 26th, 2004, 09:50 PM
Watching it again, I believe she Knew it. And Venus also knew it, but I don't know why Venus did not argue or complain.

I can't imagine how Sprem must be handling it. Unfortunately, her tennis career has been tainted. All she had to do was report it, and I'm sure she would have still won the match.An extra set point changes the whole complexion of the match so I don't think we can speculate one way or the other but it is great tennis fodder...

I'm extremely disappointed for Venus that she lost but she handled it with class. I don't blame Karolina for not speaking up. Venus could have done so but she herself said she wasn't sure and didn't want to lose focus so I would give Karolina the same dispensation.

:wavey:

lizchris
Jun 26th, 2004, 09:51 PM
Watching it again, I believe she Knew it. And Venus also knew it, but I don't know why Venus did not argue or complain.

I can't imagine how Sprem must be handling it. Unfortunately, her tennis career has been tainted. All she had to do was report it, and I'm sure she would have still won the match.
According to today's NY Daily News, she was sullen and not spreaking to many people, wich leads me to believe that other players privately believe what Serena and Andy said

gweeny
Jun 26th, 2004, 09:51 PM
enough is enough, cant we let it rest plz.

I have never understood why a poster will post on a thread, that he/she is not interested in.

If you are so bothered by the threads, don't log on to Wtaworld for a few days.

Geez. I know that when some threads are annoying to me, I just not log on. :wavey:

!<blocparty>!
Jun 26th, 2004, 09:58 PM
I have never understood why a poster will post on a thread, that he/she is not interested in.

If you are so bothered by the threads, don't log on to Wtaworld for a few days.

Geez. I know that when some threads are annoying to me, I just not log on. :wavey:When did i say I wasnt intersted in it? I just read it coz it came up on the "next thread" so i posted a "quick reply". Is that OK?

And dont be so pathetic, im not going to stay away from wtaworld for a few days coz theres a thread I dont like.

And i have never understood why a poster posts on a thread to bitch at another poster about not being intersted ina thread, just seems totally outragious :rolleyes:

KoOlMaNsEaN
Jun 26th, 2004, 10:01 PM
i was soo astonished that NOONE IN THE CROWD said anything or ONE OF THE COMMENTATORS didnt yell out it's actually 2nd serve not 2-2

pigam
Jun 26th, 2004, 10:04 PM
i believe this will be forgotten soon enough. just a hunch.
yep.
Just like :wavey:
;) :haha: (sorry for reminding you about it -yet again-)

chris whiteside
Jun 26th, 2004, 10:08 PM
i was soo astonished that NOONE IN THE CROWD said anything or ONE OF THE COMMENTATORS didnt yell out it's actually 2nd serve not 2-2


Exactly, how come the other officials on the court didn't say anything?

hingis-seles
Jun 26th, 2004, 10:13 PM
Sprem is every bit as responsible as Venus is. If you blame one, you have to blame the other. Or, you're a complete tard with no credibility who is not worth listening to.

And, Cool Canuck... the FBI isn't investigating it, they were in on it and are trying to cover their tracks :)
OMG! :eek::eek::eek: There's actually someone on these boards with a modicum of intelligence. *faints in shock*

harloo
Jun 26th, 2004, 10:28 PM
This trumps the Justine hand cheating scandal. Sprembledongate.LOL

!<blocparty>!
Jun 26th, 2004, 10:34 PM
This trumps the Justine hand cheating scandal. Sprembledongate.LOL
:haha: @ the scandal part!!!!!!!

I don't think it quite trumps it, but its close behind. :D :p

Strange Famous
Jun 26th, 2004, 10:38 PM
It doesnt matter if K-Lina knew or not, it is not her responsibility to say.

And like other people said, if K-Lina MUST have known, then venus must have known, so why didnt she say anything?

GoDominique
Jun 26th, 2004, 10:38 PM
It will be forgotten after Sprem has lost.

Martian Willow
Jun 26th, 2004, 10:40 PM
According to today's NY Daily News, she was sullen and not spreaking to many people, wich leads me to believe that other players privately believe what Serena and Andy said

...maybe that's because the biggest win of her career (so far) has been overshadowed by something that wasn't her fault...?...either way, it's nice to know the American media is just as impartial as ours...they don't know she knew, they just want to think she did, which is very sad... :)

Ballbuster
Jun 26th, 2004, 10:40 PM
These wtaplayers have lowered the esteem of the Game.

They so damn thirsty for a win over a Williams they'll do anything to get one.

Sprem should retire from Wimbledon.

Strange Famous
Jun 26th, 2004, 10:42 PM
You keep calling Sprem a cheat. Which rule did she break, Ballbuster?

!<blocparty>!
Jun 26th, 2004, 10:42 PM
These wtaplayers have lowered the esteem of the Game.

They so damn thirsty for a win over a Williams they'll do anything to get one.

Sprem should retire from Wimbledon.
:haha:

VenusSerenaBlvd.
Jun 26th, 2004, 10:49 PM
Oh My Gosh! Let's move on already! There are still many more matches to be played. Sh*t, none of the matches are into the 3rd round yet. And it almost the end of the first week.

njguido11
Jun 26th, 2004, 10:53 PM
...maybe that's because the biggest win of her career (so far) has been overshadowed by something that wasn't her fault...?...either way, it's nice to know the American media is just as impartial as ours...they don't know she knew, they just want to think she did, which is very sad... :)

Again people on the board grab the chance to attack the americans in some way or other because im sure if this happened to henman the british press wouldnt still be talking about it or any other country for that matter. Stop being hypocrites its just a story people will get over it, I for one dont even think its been that big of a story in the american media. As far as Sprem knowing who really cares I personally think she came off as an arrogant bitch in her interviews, but english isnt her first language so maybe she just came off worse than she really was.

Strange Famous
Jun 26th, 2004, 10:58 PM
Again people on the board grab the chance to attack the americans in some way or other because im sure if this happened to henman the british press wouldnt still be talking about it or any other country for that matter. Stop being hypocrites its just a story people will get over it, I for one dont even think its been that big of a story in the american media. As far as Sprem knowing who really cares I personally think she came off as an arrogant bitch in her interviews, but english isnt her first language so maybe she just came off worse than she really was.

I thought she seemed pretty nice when I saw the interview.

!<blocparty>!
Jun 26th, 2004, 11:02 PM
I thought she seemed pretty nice when I saw the interview.
yeah, same here, i thought she seemed well nice. I dont know how people can call her an arrogant bitch, but there you go....:rolleyes:

bwguy
Jun 26th, 2004, 11:07 PM
This all continues to be very silly. Sprem did what any rather inexperienced teenager would do in a situation which seems strange or not quite the way it should be: She just went with the flow. If she eventually indeed did figure out what was wrong, when apparently no one else in the stadium did, she should be congratulated for being more present than any of the other evidently disinterested parties. And just to illustrate that not all US journalists are holding her accountable for allowing the official's error to stand, I give you an excerpt from today's column penned by Charles Bricker, tennis writer for the South Florida Sun-Sentinel:

Here's what happened:

Sprem was serving at 1-2, into the ad court and struck a fault on first serve. The linesman not only called out but made a clear signal. Watts apparently did not see the gesture or hear the "out" call and announced "2-2."

There were odd glances from both players toward the chair, but Williams did not protest, and Sprem might not have understood because she returned to her serving position on the ad side, indicating she thought she was taking her second serve with the score still 1-2.

Williams then pasted Sprem's "second serve" down the line for a winner, and Watts announced, "Miss Williams leads 3-2." Still no query from either player, nor any attempt by a linesperson to correct Watts.

Furthermore, at that point, there was yet another Watts foul-up. If he thought the score was 2-2 after Sprem's first-serve fault, as he called it, why did he allow Sprem to then serve the next point from the ad side instead of the proper deuce side? If there is an answer to that question, Mills, who had Watts on his carpet not long after the match, wasn't saying.

You could understand Sprem, at 19 and playing only her second Wimbledon, not being brave enough to confront Watts over the mismanagement of the tiebreak. But there was no reasonable excuse for Williams, who is 24 and playing her eighth Wimbledon. Her surprising comment: " ... Sometimes I do lose track of the score and I just felt that maybe ... maybe I had lost track again."

To lose track of the score when you're up 6-1, 5-1 is one thing. To lose track of the score with your back against wall in a tiebreak is another. It leaves you to ponder whether Williams' lack of concentration on such a major issue as the score is in any way connected to her lack of concentration during points.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/columnists/sfl-bricker26jun26,0,736222.column?coll=sfla-sports-col

sartrista7
Jun 26th, 2004, 11:15 PM
Sprem was serving at 1-2, into the ad court and struck a fault on first serve. The linesman not only called out but made a clear signal. Watts apparently did not see the gesture or hear the "out" call and announced "2-2."

There were odd glances from both players toward the chair, but Williams did not protest, and Sprem might not have understood because she returned to her serving position on the ad side, indicating she thought she was taking her second serve with the score still 1-2.

That article pretty much sums up the situation sensibly. One more thing was that Watts called 2-2 very late, as Sprem was beginning her service motion - so both Venus and Karolina would have been focused on the "second serve". It's perfectly plausible that neither heard Watts say 2-2 - even the BBC commentators didn't pick the phantom point up until Watts called 3-2. And that's when the players started to look puzzled, too - but they wouldn't have known exactly where the score had gone wrong, probably both assumed they were the ones at fault as no one else seemed to have noticed, and so didn't complain.

It's still bizarre that one of the linesmen didn't correct the umpire.

Martian Willow
Jun 26th, 2004, 11:15 PM
Again people on the board grab the chance to attack the americans in some way or other because im sure if this happened to henman the british press wouldnt still be talking about it or any other country for that matter. Stop being hypocrites its just a story people will get over it, I for one dont even think its been that big of a story in the american media. As far as Sprem knowing who really cares I personally think she came off as an arrogant bitch in her interviews, but english isnt her first language so maybe she just came off worse than she really was.

...I wasn't attacking Amerikans...I was merely noting that all the people who have suggested that Karolina knew, but Venus didn't, and specifically those people named in the thread title, are American... :)

GoDominique
Jun 26th, 2004, 11:20 PM
...I wasn't attacking Amerikans...I was merely noting that all the people who have suggested that Karolina knew, but Venus didn't, and specifically those people named in the thread title, are American... :)
That's because everyone else has moved on already. :)

bandabou
Jun 26th, 2004, 11:37 PM
This is maybe an indication that Venus still isnīt fully mentally there yet...maybe the death of her sister still is on her mind.

Principessa
Jun 26th, 2004, 11:41 PM
This is gettin soooo freakin hilarious.

Šprem that lil lying arrogant biatch.

Crycrybabies.

CC
Jun 27th, 2004, 12:25 AM
The confusion occured because after Sprem blasted the faux-winner, the crowd applauded. I figured that's what threw off the crack head umpire.

Leo_DFP
Jun 27th, 2004, 12:33 AM
I agree. Unless Serena loses, this will be the memory everyone has from Wimbledon 2004
Not me.

It was a stupid mistake but it was actually fair to Sprem considering she had the first point of the tiebreak taken from her by a horrible call from the linesman (one that the blind ump should have corrected since it was on his side of the court). Anyway, Venus and Richard have gotten over it and have realized that the match was not decided by that one point, so why can't everyone else just let it go?

Leo_DFP
Jun 27th, 2004, 12:35 AM
The confusion occured because after Sprem blasted the faux-winner, the crowd applauded. I figured that's what threw off the crack head umpire.
I think so too. But he must have been deaf not to hear that loud fault call and also blind not to see that Sprem and Williams then played "the next point" from the same side.

Still, it's happened and history can't be changed. Let's get over it already.

freshcarrotjuice
Jun 27th, 2004, 12:41 AM
Well said bwguy,
The fact is Venus had her chances and lost this second round match. I can understand the fans being in shock but the bottom line is that 1 point didn't make or break this match. Sperm just took it to Venus and beat her, end of story.
Venus should have been keeping better track of the score or better yet, played a warm up event prior to Wimbledon. Ever since their mother took over coaching both Serena's and Venus's games have gone down hill. Why isn't anybody talking about that. :confused:

CC
Jun 27th, 2004, 12:53 AM
One point didn't make or break the match, and she had ample opportunities. But if not for the mistake she would have had 4 setpoints instead of 3.

jbone_0307
Jun 27th, 2004, 01:28 AM
Now you wonder why you want to have the French crowd, of course Karolina knew about it, but didn't say anything, because its not her responsibility to keep track of the score.

BigTennisFan
Jun 27th, 2004, 02:05 AM
I'm surprised that nobody has come up with a way to blame this on Richard Williams.

Doc
Jun 27th, 2004, 02:20 AM
It's still bizarre that one of the linesmen didn't correct the umpire.

It's not the linesmens job to keep score, or to correct the umpire - particularly in a tie break when the scoring is confusing anyway, going from 1--2 to 2-1 with change of server.

The linesmen are meant to concentrate on their lines - a difficult enough job with 120 mph serves flying about.

Similarly TV Commentators are a long way from the umpire, either high on a show court, or more usually in boxes in the TV building, several hundred yards away.

As for Karolina, why should she be more aware of the score than Venus? Especially as she is the stranger on the show court and she is the one who doesn't have English as her language?

Umpires quite often make mistakes on the score, and generally these are immediately queried by the affected player.

Bright Red
Jun 27th, 2004, 02:24 AM
Please stop telling us when to get over it. You guys have been saying this since about a second after the whole thing started.

DiZZiA
Jun 27th, 2004, 02:59 AM
That's Americans!!! :devil:
Wonder when G.W. Bush is going to make a statement about it too????? :p

Jamie
Jun 27th, 2004, 04:01 AM
Face it, Sprem outplayed Venus in the first set and repeated her performance in the second set. Sprem got a bad call but the cry babies don't mention that. Their so called goddess lost and they can't face it. Get use to the new guns, they will be around for some time.

Yonexforever
Jun 27th, 2004, 04:33 AM
I was more amazed to find out this was the same Ump from that match where the service lines were incorrecty drawn and resulted in 29 double faults!!!!
He WAS questioned there, and did NOTHING!
Apparently he was also responsible for a NOvotna/Fernandez match at WImbledon a few years back, forcing Mary Joe to say to him "you just cost me that match"!

Calimero377
Jun 27th, 2004, 04:48 AM
it's true, it's a match to be remembered a long time.

just like we're still talking about the Hingis vs. Graff match.
the Serena vs. Kim match (Aussie Open 2003)
the Serena vs. Justine match (RG 2003)


The name is "Graf", "Steffi Graf". With one "f". She was a famous tennis player some years ago.

BTW, what happened in the other two matches?
They were no finals, weren't they?
Who then is discussing certain incidents in the matches?
Some people in the hometowns of both players?

Calimero377
Jun 27th, 2004, 04:50 AM
Please stop telling us when to get over it. You guys have been saying this since about a second after the whole thing started.


C'mon, get over it.

treiber04
Jun 27th, 2004, 04:53 AM
Why do we all care about this so much....if Venus doesn't care and Sprem doesn't care the two players that were playing the match, then why should we care?

rjd1111
Jun 27th, 2004, 05:56 AM
Watching NBC. Lord knows they're going to harp this up till the next week. But really watching that for the 139752 time....it really does look like Sprem knew it.



Of Course Sperm Knew

Rtael
Jun 27th, 2004, 06:07 AM
One point didn't make or break the match, and she had ample opportunities. But if not for the mistake she would have had 4 setpoints instead of 3.
:retard:

I do believe your head is more cracked than your crystal ball, swami.

alexusjonesfan
Jun 27th, 2004, 06:16 AM
Mary Carillo's been spending too much time with the McEnroe-Robinson brain trust :o

Let it go ESPN, you're only shooting yourself in the foot again by tarnishing another up and coming player.

Cyandream
Jun 27th, 2004, 06:19 AM
One point didn't make or break the match, and she had ample opportunities. But if not for the mistake she would have had 4 setpoints instead of 3.
Can I buy your crystal ball, because if not for the mistake, K-Lina would have served to the deuce court, and no one here or anywhere else knows how that point would have turned out. K-Lina could have just as easily have won it.

SpikeyAidanm
Jun 27th, 2004, 06:21 AM
The girl is probably finding it harder to sleep now.

pff@ the media.

dansnewbeg
Jun 27th, 2004, 07:04 AM
In my opinion the scoring error was still costly. Venus may have blown her 3 chances to win the 2nd set, but in reality she earned a 4th chance. And who knows how that would have turned out.

chris whiteside
Jun 27th, 2004, 07:15 AM
In my opinion the scoring error was still costly. Venus may have blown her 3 chances to win the 2nd set, but in reality she earned a 4th chance. And who knows how that would have turned out.


No, in reality there would have been another point played before the players changed ends and no-one can say who would have won that. So, the whole course of the tie-break would have been different from 4-1. Venus would not necessarily have got to 6-2.

Had the umpire not fouled up it's impossible to know what would have happened but there can be no question it disadvantaged Venus.

Elvira
Jun 27th, 2004, 09:08 AM
Face the facts people, the "extra point" didn't have an effect on the match at all. Even AFTER the scoring error, Venus had THREE set points... it never affected her in any way, and Karolina never gained anything from it. She fought back fairly to win the tiebreak.

so, get over it already..... VENUS LOST!!!!!! :kiss: The beat-down has re-commenced indeed.

Trent
Jun 27th, 2004, 09:16 AM
oh americans, get over it

I agree fully.



Watch the match a thousand times but unless you have the powers to hear what Sprem was thinking (which none of you don't), you're bull shitting yourself if you think you know.

gentenaire
Jun 27th, 2004, 09:55 AM
That article pretty much sums up the situation sensibly. One more thing was that Watts called 2-2 very late, as Sprem was beginning her service motion - so both Venus and Karolina would have been focused on the "second serve". It's perfectly plausible that neither heard Watts say 2-2 - even the BBC commentators didn't pick the phantom point up until Watts called 3-2. And that's when the players started to look puzzled, too - but they wouldn't have known exactly where the score had gone wrong, probably both assumed they were the ones at fault as no one else seemed to have noticed, and so didn't complain.

It's still bizarre that one of the linesmen didn't correct the umpire.

That's how I saw it as well. I didn't hear the 2-2, when Watts said 3-2 I thought it was just a slip of the tongue, it wasn't until he said 4-2 that I realised he had awarded Sprem that extra point. But by that time it's a bit late to complain. The players were clearly confused, didn't know whether to change sides or not.
I think the person in charge of putting the score on the scoreboard must have been confused the most.

queenz of tenniz
Jun 27th, 2004, 10:03 AM
i was soo astonished that NOONE IN THE CROWD said anything or ONE OF THE COMMENTATORS didnt yell out it's actually 2nd serve not 2-2

Cmon you guys, Karolina Sprem beat Venus Williams fair and square. Venus had her chances, in fact many chances including 3 set points but she blew it. Venus Williams, a former Wimbledon champ-with much more experience on Grand Occassions than Sprem should know better.

Venus Williams looks more like challenger in her match against Sprem. With tons of unforced errors, Venus Williams was outplayed and outgunned by a player who reminds me so much of the young Monica Seles- the unrelenting aggression and hitting winners on both wings was simply amazing.

Crazy Canuck
Jun 27th, 2004, 10:26 AM
Again people on the board grab the chance to attack the americans in some way or other because im sure if this happened to henman the british press wouldnt still be talking about it or any other country for that matter. Stop being hypocrites its just a story people will get over it, I for one dont even think its been that big of a story in the american media. As far as Sprem knowing who really cares I personally think she came off as an arrogant bitch in her interviews, but english isnt her first language so maybe she just came off worse than she really was.
And again, njguido11 tries to call Anti-Americanism when it's completely and totally unrelated to the matter at hand. Imagine that.

Crazy Canuck
Jun 27th, 2004, 10:29 AM
Can I buy your crystal ball, because if not for the mistake, K-Lina would have served to the deuce court, and no one here or anywhere else knows how that point would have turned out. K-Lina could have just as easily have won it.
Another point that most people here seem to be missing. The tiebreak may well have played out totally differently if that one point was changed. There is not telling that Venus was going to go up 6-whatever. I'm not sure why people are making that ridiculous assumption.

sartrista7
Jun 27th, 2004, 10:44 AM
Another point that most people here seem to be missing. The tiebreak may well have played out totally differently if that one point was changed. There is not telling that Venus was going to go up 6-whatever. I'm not sure why people are making that ridiculous assumption.

Yes, exactly. After 3-2 was called, Venus and Karolina both looked utterly puzzled, and it really showed in the shots they hit - they both made very elementary errors all of a sudden, and it was evident that neither was totally focused on the match. Without the confusion, both would have been able to keep their concentration... and each point would have been different.

Therefore, there is no question that Venus was cheated of an extra set point... because she might have not even had any set points if Watts hadn't screwed up... or she might have taken the tiebreak 7-1. We can't tell.

chris whiteside
Jun 27th, 2004, 11:17 AM
Face the facts people, the "extra point" didn't have an effect on the match at all. Even AFTER the scoring error, Venus had THREE set points... it never affected her in any way, and Karolina never gained anything from it. She fought back fairly to win the tiebreak.

so, get over it already..... VENUS LOST!!!!!! :kiss: The beat-down has re-commenced indeed.


Sorry, but this is just plain rubbish. Of course it had an effect on the match. What we cannot know is what this effect would have been.

tterb
Jun 27th, 2004, 05:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy Canuck
Another point that most people here seem to be missing. The tiebreak may well have played out totally differently if that one point was changed. There is not telling that Venus was going to go up 6-whatever. I'm not sure why people are making that ridiculous assumption.


Yes, exactly. After 3-2 was called, Venus and Karolina both looked utterly puzzled, and it really showed in the shots they hit - they both made very elementary errors all of a sudden, and it was evident that neither was totally focused on the match. Without the confusion, both would have been able to keep their concentration... and each point would have been different.

Therefore, there is no question that Venus was cheated of an extra set point... because she might have not even had any set points if Watts hadn't screwed up... or she might have taken the tiebreak 7-1. We can't tell.

Good logic :) . There's absolutely no way to know what would have occurred if the error never happened.

On that note, if people are going to hold one player responsible for this mess (which can be argued either way... one can see how a focused player might or might not still be expected to know the score), they need to hold both players responsible - one player shouldn't be given the benefit of doubt on knowing the score while the other is expected to act.

But if you insist on holding the players responsible, at least consider the circumstances that led to their inaction. As sartrista pointed out earlier, the actions of the players showed that they weren't entirely sure what was going on. And though they both probably did realize there was an error, why should any of us fans expect the players to correct the umpire? They're on an enormous stage, the person who's paid to keep score seems confident of the score, and nobody else (including the opponent, fans, linespeople, etc.) is arguing... Regardless of how much experience you've had playing matches on a big stage, a bizarre event like this would certainly cause you to doubt yourself.

The point is, they both could tell something was wrong... but IMHO the reason neither acted wasn't because of lack of intelligence, or inexperience, or worry about the crowd reaction, or gamesmanship. It was self-doubt in the face of an once-in-a-lifetime kind of error, plain and simple. The girls probably did realize the score was wrong... but they probably wondered if they had made a mistake. Because how many times is the score called wrong by the people paid to keep track of it? And would the girls want to look like fools in front of so many people if they were wrong, and risk losing concentration in the middle of a HUGE tiebreak for nothing? And how exactly do you approach the umpire in that situation without feeling like you're either insulting his intelligence or your own? It's such a crazy circumstance, that the players did what they felt was best - went with the flow and played on.

Anyway, I think that the reasonable tennis fans around have put the blame on the parties responsible - the umpire - and while I know everyone's having such a fun time with the conspiracy theories ;) , everyone should realize that there's no way of knowing how this one would have ended, and nobody to blame except the official who made the mistake. Anyway, there are plenty of matches left, and much as I like Venus and Karolina, there are players who are playing matches in the present that probably deserve some attention. :D

DA FOREHAND
Jun 27th, 2004, 05:42 PM
enough is enough, cant we let it rest plz.


sure and let's not ever mention what happened 11 years ago last april! No...it shouldn't be just swept under the rug, it happened it was fucked up, and as long as she's playing I will see her scarlet letter.

I was beginning to like this girl, and then she shows her darkside, all just so she could say I beat Venus Williams at Wimbledon.

"Tennis doesn't build character, it reaveals it"

Bright Red
Jun 27th, 2004, 05:55 PM
Good logic :) . There's absolutely no way to know what would have occurred if the error never happened.

On that note, if people are going to hold one player responsible for this mess (which can be argued either way... one can see how a focused player might or might not still be expected to know the score), they need to hold both players responsible - one player shouldn't be given the benefit of doubt on knowing the score while the other is expected to act.

But if you insist on holding the players responsible, at least consider the circumstances that led to their inaction. As sartrista pointed out earlier, the actions of the players showed that they weren't entirely sure what was going on. And though they both probably did realize there was an error, why should any of us fans expect the players to correct the umpire? They're on an enormous stage, the person who's paid to keep score seems confident of the score, and nobody else (including the opponent, fans, linespeople, etc.) is arguing... Regardless of how much experience you've had playing matches on a big stage, a bizarre event like this would certainly cause you to doubt yourself.

The point is, they both could tell something was wrong... but IMHO the reason neither acted wasn't because of lack of intelligence, or inexperience, or worry about the crowd reaction, or gamesmanship. It was self-doubt in the face of an once-in-a-lifetime kind of error, plain and simple. The girls probably did realize the score was wrong... but they probably wondered if they had made a mistake. Because how many times is the score called wrong by the people paid to keep track of it? And would the girls want to look like fools in front of so many people if they were wrong, and risk losing concentration in the middle of a HUGE tiebreak for nothing? And how exactly do you approach the umpire in that situation without feeling like you're either insulting his intelligence or your own? It's such a crazy circumstance, that the players did what they felt was best - went with the flow and played on.

Anyway, I think that the reasonable tennis fans around have put the blame on the parties responsible - the umpire - and while I know everyone's having such a fun time with the conspiracy theories ;) , everyone should realize that there's no way of knowing how this one would have ended, and nobody to blame except the official who made the mistake. Anyway, there are plenty of matches left, and much as I like Venus and Karolina, there are players who are playing matches in the present that probably deserve some attention. :D
Brilliant post. Bravo.

htm
Jun 27th, 2004, 05:59 PM
It's amazing how people continue to say one point does not make a difference, but I does when the person benefiting from it wins. This will hunt Sprem for the rest of her life. I think Venus could have won this match had she won the second set because she usually does. In my opinion some peole wanted Venus to lose so badley it didn't matter to them if she was cheated or not just as long as she lost. Like I said in a previous post had this had been Venus or Serena mostly everyone would want them banish from tennis because they truly don't want them to play in their sport anyway their just looking for that one reason.

Jericho
Jun 27th, 2004, 06:00 PM
Good logic :) . There's absolutely no way to know what would have occurred if the error never happened.
Thats why i get annoyed at those people who say that the point didn't make a difference and Sprem would've won anyways. Venus coud have very well taken the seocnd set and won the third, or she could've just lost. Those people act like they've never seen a match where a point changed the balance of a match.


Anyway, I think that the reasonable tennis fans around have put the blame on the parties responsible - the umpire - and while I know everyone's having such a fun time with the conspiracy theories ;) , everyone should realize that there's no way of knowing how this one would have ended, and nobody to blame except the official who made the mistake.
:worship:

Bright Red
Jun 27th, 2004, 06:04 PM
If the score ended up being 7-4 in the tiebreak, I could see how some might argue that the extra point wouldn't have mattered, but to be convinced that Venus would have gone on to lose a match that ended 7-6 because of a free point is ridiculous.

The free point absolutely mattered.

Jericho
Jun 27th, 2004, 06:09 PM
If the score ended up being 7-4 in the tiebreak, I could see how some might argue that the extra point wouldn't have mattered, but to be convinced that Venus would have gone on to lose a match that ended 7-6 because of a free point is ridiculous.

The free point absolutely mattered.
of course it did...it was a tiebreak on top of that, and even more so a close one, a very close one. Imagine if Hingis was given an extra point against Capriati in the Australian Open finals. If Hingis won, everyone would be saying that it wouldn't have mattered too, but we all know what happened

Bright Red
Jun 27th, 2004, 06:17 PM
of course it did...it was a tiebreak on top of that, and even more so a close one, a very close one. Imagine if Hingis was given an extra point against Capriati in the Australian Open finals. If Hingis won, everyone would be saying that it wouldn't have mattered too, but we all know what happened
It's pretty much only on this board that you'll hear things like it didn't matter. I've only read it here.

gentenaire
Jun 27th, 2004, 06:25 PM
It's pretty much only on this board that you'll hear things like it didn't matter. I've only read it here.

And it's only here that you'll read that someone stole a match, cheated, after getting ONE extra point! What about all the other points Sprem had to win in order to get to that point? The fact remains that Sprem didn't steal that match, she proved that she could win it and she did. Why can't the fans be as gracious as Venus?

azza
Jun 27th, 2004, 06:28 PM
Sprem knew it Sprem Cheated Sprem is the new Jhh.

Thanks.

Cheat.

Jericho
Jun 27th, 2004, 06:36 PM
Why can't the fans be as gracious as Venus?
i'd love to see your vast list of Venus fans who claim she cheated! :angel:

Bright Red
Jun 27th, 2004, 06:42 PM
And it's only here that you'll read that someone stole a match, cheated, after getting ONE extra point! What about all the other points Sprem had to win in order to get to that point? The fact remains that Sprem didn't steal that match, she proved that she could win it and she did. Why can't the fans be as gracious as Venus?
First of all, there are a lot of things posted on this board. And although, I never said or even believe that Sprem cheated, it is not true that only on this board that you'll hear that she did. Several professional tennis players and sports commentators also believe she knew (didn't you even read the title of this thread?). But that's not my point. I was talking about whether the free point cost Venus the match.

Bright Red
Jun 27th, 2004, 06:50 PM
And it's only here that you'll read that someone stole a match, cheated, after getting ONE extra point! What about all the other points Sprem had to win in order to get to that point? The fact remains that Sprem didn't steal that match, she proved that she could win it and she did. Why can't the fans be as gracious as Venus?
But you are right. I think it's pretty bad that Sprem's good performance is being overshadowed by this controversy. I figure that in the long run, people will ultimately leave the blame on the umpire - which is where it belongs. It's also unfortunate that Venus lost. In the grand scheme of things, it's just a game. I'm 100% confident that The Queen will be back! :bounce:

bandabou
Jun 27th, 2004, 06:59 PM
Of course Sprem didnīt cheat, but that is it. To say the extra point awarded to Sprem didnīt matter, goes a very bit far. It DID matter, because it ended up costing Venus a match she in fact didnīt even lose.

gentenaire
Jun 27th, 2004, 07:20 PM
Of course Sprem didnīt cheat, but that is it. To say the extra point awarded to Sprem didnīt matter, goes a very bit far. It DID matter, because it ended up costing Venus a match she in fact didnīt even lose.

Do you have a crystal ball? We don't know if that point mattered or not, no one knows. Even if the points had been played in exactly the same manner, it would have been 7-6 for Sprem and one more point needed to have been played, maybe more points needed to have been played, maybe even less, maybe Venus wouldn't have raced to a 6-3 lead, it's just as likely that the point wouldn't have mattered than that it would have. We don't know if that point mattered or not, we only know that one point does not make a whole match. What makes you think Venus would have won had the umpire not made that mistake?

Martian Willow
Jun 27th, 2004, 07:29 PM
...the umpires mistake clearly had some effect, but what grates is the implication coming from some people that Karolina wouldn't have won without it...she was looking most likely to win at the end, being a set and 7-6 up in the tiebreak...we'll never know, because the mistake took away our chance to find out... :)

Jericho
Jun 27th, 2004, 07:34 PM
What makes you think Venus would have won had the umpire not made that mistake?what makes people think that Venus couldn't have won either. Who would've thought that raymond would come back from 0-6 0-5 30-30 down. If the umpire gave her opponent an extra point, no one would think that she would've won anyways...but we all know that she would end up winning ;)

Im not saying that im sure Venus would've won but because of that stupid umpire, we wont know. But to say that one point does not make a match doesnt always apply. In a 6-0 6-0 thrashing obviously it wouldn't matter, but if it was a tight match then of course it would.

chris whiteside
Jun 27th, 2004, 07:41 PM
I don't think anyone is claiming Venus WOULD have won but no-one can say that that point didn't make any difference - in the circumstances she MIGHT have won. On the other hand Sprem could still have won.

But that's why so many people are incensed about a totally inept umpire.

Bright Red
Jun 27th, 2004, 07:42 PM
Do you have a crystal ball? We don't know if that point mattered or not, no one knows. Even if the points had been played in exactly the same manner, it would have been 7-6 for Sprem and one more point needed to have been played, maybe more points needed to have been played, maybe even less, maybe Venus wouldn't have raced to a 6-3 lead, it's just as likely that the point wouldn't have mattered than that it would have. We don't know if that point mattered or not, we only know that one point does not make a whole match. What makes you think Venus would have won had the umpire not made that mistake?There's a fine distinction being made here. Maybe I can highlight it.

All of this talk about whether Venus would have raced to a 6-3 lead or crashed out 7-3 is irrelevant. If we introduce fluff and hypotheses and the "what might have happened" or "what could have happened", we'd be here all day posting. However, we don't have to rely on fluff. We have the facts. What we do know is that Sprem won with a score of 8-6 when the true score was 7-6. This means that because of the error, the match ended prematurely. And that's a fact that no one can argue.

The mistake resulted in the match ending prematurely which means it cost Venus the match. This is not to say that Venus would have won the set, because we do not know. But we do know it cost her the match.

If you believe that the free point didn't matter, then you're saying that you know for a fact that Sprem would have won another point. Or you're relying on conjecture and hypothesis to blur the issue. That's what I have a problem with.

chris whiteside
Jun 27th, 2004, 07:46 PM
There's a fine distinction being made here. Maybe I can highlight it.

All of this talk about whether Venus would have raced to a 6-3 lead or crashed out 7-3 is irrelevant. If we introduce fluff and hypotheses and the "what might have happened" or "what could have happened", we'd be here all day posting. However, we don't have to rely on fluff. We have the facts. What we do know is that Sprem won with a score of 8-6 when the true score was 7-6. This means that because of the error, the match ended prematurely. And that's a fact that no one can argue.

The mistake resulted in the match ending prematurely which means it cost Venus the match. This is not to say that Venus would have won the set, because we do not know. But we do know it cost her the match.

If you believe that the free point didn't matter, then you're saying that you know for a fact that Sprem would have won another point. Or you're relying on conjecture and hypothesis to blur the issue. That's what I have a problem with.


I agree that the free point obviously did matter but we don't know that the score would have been 7-6. There would have been another point played before ends were changed, we don't know who would have won that and the course of the rest of the tie-break would have been different.

Bright Red
Jun 27th, 2004, 07:48 PM
I agree that the free point obviously did matter but we don't know that the score would have been 7-6. There would have been another point played before ends were changed, we don't know who would have won that and the course of the rest of the tie-break would have been different.Again, all I'm saying is what actually happened, not what might have happened.

bandabou
Jun 27th, 2004, 08:16 PM
Bottom line is that there were only 13 points played in the tie-break and there is this fact that Venus won 6 of them....so what we DO know is that Sprem could impossible have won the tie-break, because there isnīt a two-point difference.

Spunky83
Jun 27th, 2004, 08:19 PM
According to "Friends": Now we know that they knew that she knew...doesnīt make much sense, but thatīs basically it.

gentenaire
Jun 27th, 2004, 08:22 PM
Bottom line is that there were only 13 points played in the tie-break and there is this fact that Venus won 6 of them....so what we DO know is that Sprem could impossible have won the tie-break, because there isnīt a two-point difference.

heh? Venus couldn't have possible won the tie break either using your twisted logic. Sprem won 7 of those 13 points which means Venus would have needed at least 3 more points, Sprem needed only one more.

bandabou
Jun 27th, 2004, 08:58 PM
heh? Venus couldn't have possible won the tie break either using your twisted logic. Sprem won 7 of those 13 points which means Venus would have needed at least 3 more points, Sprem needed only one more.


Yep....Venus couldīve won it because she set points. Sprem only reached mp, so she didnīt win it either...

chris whiteside
Jun 29th, 2004, 10:54 PM
John McEnroe did a phone-in programme on British radio tonight. When asked about this incident he said from the look on Sprem's face he thought she knew and should have had the morality not to take the point.