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WhatTheDeuce
Jun 25th, 2004, 05:36 PM
If Venus didn't know the correct score, then why is it fair to accuse Sprem of knowing the correct score???? Where's proof??? K-Lina was just as focused and intense as Venus was.

Tennisfan-Mtl
Jun 25th, 2004, 05:38 PM
If Venus didn't know the correct score, then why is it fair to accuse Sprem of knowing the correct score???? Where's proof??? K-Lina was just as focused and intense as Venus was.

That's exactly what I've been trying to say on this board since yesterday :worship: :worship: :worship:

To those people who accuse Sprem of "knowing" : do you think Venus knew as well ? And if she did, why on Earth didn't she say a word ?

GoDominique
Jun 25th, 2004, 05:40 PM
They both knew the correct score, but they don't have faith in their intelligence.

Spunky83
Jun 25th, 2004, 05:40 PM
Thatīs correct! If Venus had complained, then it had worked out, but fact is, she didnīt.

Hey, now, what do you think: Will Sprem take away the first place of Justineīs glamorous hand??? LOL

WhatTheDeuce
Jun 25th, 2004, 05:41 PM
They both knew the correct score, but they don't have faith in their intelligence.
even if that was the case, which we have NO PROOF OF, it's venus who should have said something before k-lina, that's for damn sure.

Tennisfan-Mtl
Jun 25th, 2004, 05:42 PM
even if that was the case, which we have NO PROOF OF, it's venus who should have said something before k-lina, that's for damn sure.

:worship: :worship: :worship:

Spunky83
Jun 25th, 2004, 05:42 PM
They both knew the correct score, but they don't have faith in their intelligence.

Exactly...how weird is it to go to the umpire and say:"Excuse me, I think you are counting wrong."...while millions of people are watching...I think they didnīt want to get embarrased. It probably wasnīt the first time that they "think" the umpire is counting incorrectly.

-Em-
Jun 25th, 2004, 05:45 PM
Wait, are you trying to make sense?

Common sense is forbidden on planet Venus. :haha:

:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

GoDominique
Jun 25th, 2004, 05:47 PM
even if that was the case, which we have NO PROOF OF, it's venus who should have said something before k-lina, that's for damn sure.
It WAS the case, because they were both preparing to play a point from the right side.

I agree on the 2nd part though. :)

WhatTheDeuce
Jun 25th, 2004, 05:51 PM
perhaps they knew the ump said 3-2 instead of 3-1... but they didnt necassarily know k-lina got a free point. because after k-lina missed her first serve and hit the backhand "winner"... she went to hit a second serve, which would imply that she was under the impression that she was given a free point.

WF4EVER
Jun 25th, 2004, 05:51 PM
If you bothered to watch Venus' interview you'd realized that even though Venus might have known, she was so uncertain of herself at the time that she felt she was probably mistaken.

She did a doubletake when she heard the score, from what I saw, but down a set and fighting to stay in the match, it's understandable that she was second-guessing herself. If you look at the reaction of both players they both thought something had gone wrong but Venus was too frazzled herself to make any claims of certainty.

I heard that Alan Mills said neither player had questioned the score, so it should stand. The point is, it wasn't a bad line call; it was a bad score. Therefore, one can't honestly expect the players to go out there and do their own scoring as well. If they should why not get the rid of all the fucking officials?

In the heat of a game as tense as that one, how dare they expect the players to do the scoring as well. That's what offcials are for!

WhatTheDeuce
Jun 25th, 2004, 05:53 PM
If you bothered to watch Venus' interview you'd realized that even though Venus might have known, she was so uncertain of herself at the time that she felt she was probably mistaken.

She did a doubletake when she heard the score, from what I saw, but down a set and fighting to stay in the match, it's understandable that she was second-guessing herself. If you look at the reaction of both players they both thought something had gone wrong but Venus was too frazzled herself to make any claims of certainty.

I heard that Alan Mills said neither player had questioned the score, so it should stand. The point is, it wasn't a bad line call; it was a bad score. Therefore, one can't honestly expect the players to go out there and do their own scoring as well. If they should why not get the rid of all the fucking officials?

In the heat of a game as tense as that one, how dare they expect the players to do the scoring as well. That's what offcials are for!
well said...

GoDominique
Jun 25th, 2004, 05:56 PM
Errr ... people like you and me can have heated matches as well, and we're still able to do the scoring by ourselves.

Don't tell me it's no difference for Venus (or anyone else) whether it's 40-30 or 30-40. :o

WhatTheDeuce
Jun 25th, 2004, 05:58 PM
Errr ... people like you and me can have heated matches as well, and we're still able to do the scoring by ourselves.

Don't tell me it's no difference for Venus (or anyone else) whether it's 40-30 or 30-40. :o
I've had score fuck ups in my matches before. This just so happened to be on Centre Court at Wimbledon. :haha:

franny
Jun 25th, 2004, 06:16 PM
You know, I don't want to start any accusations here but did anyone notice the smirk on Ted Watt's face after he gave Sprem the extra point? And also, did anyone else see how when Sprem was walking during the changeover, down 4-2, she was walking with like a little smirk of her own? I think she may have even looked up at the chair with a smirk but that I cannot be too certain of. Again, I'm not saying that it represents anything, just wondering if anyone else saw it. I still think that she deserves the match though, she played a hell of one.

The Crow
Jun 25th, 2004, 06:28 PM
They both knew the correct score, but they don't have faith in their intelligence.
Don't see how this has anything to do with (lack of) intelligence? :confused:

The Crow
Jun 25th, 2004, 06:30 PM
Errr ... people like you and me can have heated matches as well, and we're still able to do the scoring by ourselves.

Don't tell me it's no difference for Venus (or anyone else) whether it's 40-30 or 30-40. :o
Partly true. The difference is that in an official match someone is supposed to keep track of the scores for you. So I cannunderstand that you concentrate more on making the points than on the actual scores.

baleineau
Jun 25th, 2004, 06:37 PM
It can be argued that Sprem was disadvantaged by the mistake, as she was limited to just one less point on serve in the tie-break. She earned a free point because of the mistake, but then lost a point by hitting a second-serve and Venus nailing a winner.

Williams Rulez
Jun 25th, 2004, 07:11 PM
Partly true. The difference is that in an official match someone is supposed to keep track of the scores for you. So I cannunderstand that you concentrate more on making the points than on the actual scores.Yes, i think tt's why they didn't question anything...

tterb
Jun 25th, 2004, 07:14 PM
Thanks, dlandy22, it's good to see people actually thinking in this thread. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing that can be implied by either Venus or Karolina's actions/expressions during the tiebreak is that they were both very confused. I think GoDominique has a good point... Even if it can't be proved what the players were thinking, in my mind it's likely they knew the score was wrong. But the reason neither one said a word about it has less to do with malicious intent or intense focus than conformity. If anyone's taken psychology, when the majority (i.e. the crowd, linesperson, and your opponent) appear to take a certain position (i.e. nothing was wrong with the score), almost all of the time an individual will go with the majority. Both players likely thought they must be wrong, since the other player and all the linespeople were going along with the score, and so both kept playing.

This being said, I don't think it's fair for anyone to speculate what was going on in the heads of these players... they were both obviously confused, let's leave it at that. The only person to blame is the umpire (and linespeople) who get paid to prevent these exact kinds of mistakes from occurring. Not much can be done now to make the situation any better (besides the very appropriate banning of the umpire). The best we can do is congratulate Venus and Karolina on playing a highly entertaining match that showed off their enormous abilities. It's a shame the quality of the match will be overshadowed by controversy... and bad luck that these players were the victims of such an outrageous error.

In conclusion: Venus is talented... she will be back. Karolina is talented... she will continue to rise. :D

Spunky83
Jun 25th, 2004, 07:14 PM
You know, I don't want to start any accusations here but did anyone notice the smirk on Ted Watt's face after he gave Sprem the extra point? And also, did anyone else see how when Sprem was walking during the changeover, down 4-2, she was walking with like a little smirk of her own? I think she may have even looked up at the chair with a smirk but that I cannot be too certain of. Again, I'm not saying that it represents anything, just wondering if anyone else saw it. I still think that she deserves the match though, she played a hell of one.

Didnīt even the umpire smiled at Sprem when the players were looking confused and lost on court? I remember me thinking: "Why is the umpire smiling towards Sprem"...maybe they have a conspiracy going on??? lol

Kabezya
Jun 25th, 2004, 07:15 PM
Why do the people feel it was up to Venus to query the error? What's the point of having an Umpire, who's sitting up on a stool with pen and paper, supposedly writing down the score, making mistakes?

The players are concentrating on their game. But, had she made a noise about it, people would have said she was a sore loser. I wish Venus had said something, but she didn't probably considering the point in the match she was in. I fail to see how players can be blamed when a ref is there for a reason - he should have served his purpose as an official.

fammmmedspin
Jun 25th, 2004, 07:15 PM
If you bothered to watch Venus' interview you'd realized that even though Venus might have known, she was so uncertain of herself at the time that she felt she was probably mistaken.

She did a doubletake when she heard the score, from what I saw, but down a set and fighting to stay in the match, it's understandable that she was second-guessing herself. If you look at the reaction of both players they both thought something had gone wrong but Venus was too frazzled herself to make any claims of certainty.

I heard that Alan Mills said neither player had questioned the score, so it should stand. The point is, it wasn't a bad line call; it was a bad score. Therefore, one can't honestly expect the players to go out there and do their own scoring as well. If they should why not get the rid of all the fucking officials?

In the heat of a game as tense as that one, how dare they expect the players to do the scoring as well. That's what offcials are for!
its worse than that even. Venus would wonder if the fault had been over-ridden or whether the previous score call was right so she wouldn't know what happened and would feel foolish interupting a tie break to find out what everyone else seemed to know. Sprem would expect Venus to protest if it was wrong as well as expecting the umpire to be able to count.. It was watt's job not theirs . The surprising thing is that the lines judges, who are also all qualified umpires, didn't tell Watts which is what usually happens

Anne K.
Jun 25th, 2004, 09:41 PM
Why do the people feel it was up to Venus to query the error? What's the point of having an Umpire, who's sitting up on a stool with pen and paper, supposedly writing down the score, making mistakes?

The players are concentrating on their game. But, had she made a noise about it, people would have said she was a sore loser. I wish Venus had said something, but she didn't probably considering the point in the match she was in. I fail to see how players can be blamed when a ref is there for a reason - he should have served his purpose as an official. 1.) Venus was the player disadvantaged
by the umpire's decision to award Sprem a "phantom" point. In most scoring
screw-ups, it's the player being screwed who complains.
2.) You and many others have mentioned how Venus and Karolina were so
immeresed in the moment, the "now", so to speak, that they were not really
sure what the score was. A lot of people seem to be willing to believe Venus
was confused and unsure, but that Sprem "knew." COME ON!!! If Venus,
a 24-year-old veteran with 4 Grand Slam and innumerable other titles, was
confused, what about Sprem? Playing on the revered Centre Court for the
first time in her life, a veritable rookie compared to Venus, SHE'S supposed
to take the responsibility for the mistake??? This was an total mistake on
the umpire's part, and yes, I believe he should be censured for it. But I
also think the players bear some blame. I used to have a copy of The Code,
the official rulebook of tennis (but I lent it to someone who didn't return
it :( ) and I believe there is a rule in there somewhere about how if a
mistake in scoring is made, if it isn't noticed and corrected at the time, the
mistake stands. There are no special rules about whether the match is
a USTA doubles or a Grand Slam tie-break--same rules for all occasions.
Hopefully, Venus, Sprem and all other professional players will learn a
valuable lesson from this--that it's great to have an umpire, linesmen and
ballkids, but the ones ultimately responsible for remembering the score
are the players. As we've seen, it could be the difference between winning
or losing a match.

Vass22
Jun 25th, 2004, 10:11 PM
If Venus didn't know the correct score, then why is it fair to accuse Sprem of knowing the correct score???? Where's proof??? K-Lina was just as focused and intense as Venus was.
I'd say it's pretty damn hard not to listen to the score in the tie break, that's one. She also perfectly knew that she had to serve a second serve, that's too.

But here's a scenario in which Karolina doesn't know the score: she thinks she served a double-foult and just moves on. She doesn't have to listen to the score. Plus it's sometimes hard to remember what was the previus score, hell I myself often argue that no it was 30-30 and not 40-30 for him when I lose a game... And I sincerely don't know the score.
I also was faced with the following situation ones: I was running a school 1000meter race, that's 5 rounds. There were people counting the rounds of each runner. I ran 5 rounds but someone miss counted and told me to run one more, I didn't argue...

miranda_lou
Jun 25th, 2004, 10:12 PM
Wait, are you trying to make sense?

Common sense is forbidden on planet Venus
Making sense in regard to Venus can get you banned from this board.:lol: :lol:

I hope this controversy doesn't affect Karolina in her next match, which she has a really good chance of winning.:kiss:

fammmmedspin
Jun 25th, 2004, 11:09 PM
I'd say it's pretty damn hard not to listen to the score in the tie break, that's one. She also perfectly knew that she had to serve a second serve, that's too.

But here's a scenario in which Karolina doesn't know the score: she thinks she served a double-foult and just moves on. She doesn't have to listen to the score. Plus it's sometimes hard to remember what was the previus score, hell I myself often argue that no it was 30-30 and not 40-30 for him when I lose a game... And I sincerely don't know the score.
I also was faced with the following situation ones: I was running a school 1000meter race, that's 5 rounds. There were people counting the rounds of each runner. I ran 5 rounds but someone miss counted and told me to run one more, I didn't argue...Not only do you have to have remembered the previus score but you also don't know if it was right or the new version is right or what on earth reason there was why you gained the point - was the serve out, was there a call or not. You can't replay the whole TB in your head to work out what the score actually is as you are serving.

Martian Willow
Jun 25th, 2004, 11:23 PM
...personally I wouldn't walk up to the umpire and demand he remove one of my points, either in a crucial potentially career-changing tiebreak, nor indeed at any other time, unless I was 100% sure of what had happened, and Karolina clearly wasn't 100% sure...the end... :)

mykarma
Jun 25th, 2004, 11:39 PM
Why do the people feel it was up to Venus to query the error? What's the point of having an Umpire, who's sitting up on a stool with pen and paper, supposedly writing down the score, making mistakes?

The players are concentrating on their game. But, had she made a noise about it, people would have said she was a sore loser. I wish Venus had said something, but she didn't probably considering the point in the match she was in. I fail to see how players can be blamed when a ref is there for a reason - he should have served his purpose as an official. I agree, if Venus had challenged the call and been wrong, then what? You know everything they do is under a microscope. I bet it won't happen to her again, or anyone else for that matter. Not only should the umpire not to allowed to do any additional matches this tournament, neither should the lines people.

bandabou
Jun 25th, 2004, 11:43 PM
The even bigger question: How the hell can this happen at wimbledon?! I mean...a linecall is understandable, but a wrong SCORE?!!

Bright Red
Jun 25th, 2004, 11:46 PM
I think Andy Roddick did a very good job of answering the "ultimate question". He said that if it's the match of your life, then you probably do know the score.

Of course, it's just an opinion; but it seems reasonable to me.

(I'm not accusing Sprem because I choose to give her the benefit of the doubt).

G-Ha
Jun 25th, 2004, 11:52 PM
No, Andy did not do a good job of answering "the ultimate question". Because Karolina is allegedly "playing the match of her life" she's required to keep track of every single scoring detail, but Venus is granted the luxury of being completely oblivious? That's ridiculous!

Havok
Jun 25th, 2004, 11:59 PM
I just find it bizarre that absolutely nobody said a word about it. I have no clue who knew, who didnt know, etc, but its just :scared: that nobody said anything. Anyways, it was just one point, and it didn't decide the match anyways, it was at the start of the TB, nowhere near a crucial stage of the match.

Havok
Jun 26th, 2004, 12:01 AM
No, Andy did not do a good job of answering "the ultimate question". Because Karolina is allegedly "playing the match of her life" she's required to keep track of every single scoring detail, but Venus is granted the luxury of being completely oblivious? That's ridiculous!But he also said that you sometimes space out and forget the scores and don't feel confident enough to say anything. please read stuff before you comment :)

Bright Red
Jun 26th, 2004, 12:07 AM
No, Andy did not do a good job of answering "the ultimate question". Because Karolina is allegedly "playing the match of her life" she's required to keep track of every single scoring detail, but Venus is granted the luxury of being completely oblivious? That's ridiculous!
No one will ever be sure of whether Sprem knew or not, but what Andy said is very reasonable.

The real question is why have we already seen two professional players suggest that Sprem should have known the score, but no professional player has yet taken your position in defense of Sprem?

G-Ha
Jun 26th, 2004, 12:11 AM
But he also said that you sometimes space out and forget the scores and don't feel confident enough to say anything. please read stuff before you comment :)
I'm very capable of reading, thank you. My post was directed towards Bright Red's comment which he attributes to Andy: "if it's the match of your life, then you probably do know the score." Which suggests that Karolina did know the score and was not confused as she claims. Please try to follow the flow of the thread before you comment. :)

Bright Red
Jun 26th, 2004, 12:13 AM
I'm very capable of reading, thank you. My post was directed towards Bright Red's comment which he attributes to Andy: "if it's the match of your life, then you probably do know the score." Which suggests that Karolina did know the score and was not confused as she claims. Please try to follow the flow of the thread before you comment. :)
LOL!

Just_lindsay
Jun 26th, 2004, 12:25 AM
My feelings on the matter:

KAROLINA: :worship:

VENUS: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

Bright Red
Jun 26th, 2004, 12:29 AM
I should add what I think is most important. Instead of questioning, we should just give Sprem the benefit of the doubt. She did play an outstanding match, after all.

cheesestix
Jun 26th, 2004, 12:44 AM
Why do the people feel it was up to Venus to query the error? What's the point of having an Umpire, who's sitting up on a stool with pen and paper, supposedly writing down the score, making mistakes?

Why do people feel it was up to Sprem to query the error?


The players are concentrating on their game. But, had she made a noise about it, people would have said she was a sore loser. I wish Venus had said something, but she didn't probably considering the point in the match she was in. I fail to see how players can be blamed when a ref is there for a reason - he should have served his purpose as an official.

Everyone watching at home says that it was so blatantly obvious that there was an error. So why would anyone criticize Venus for contesting that? Especially when she would have been 100% correct in doing so. It's not like she normally contests a lot of points or anything.

darrinbaker00
Jun 26th, 2004, 12:57 AM
Everyone watching at home says that it was so blatantly obvious that there was an error. So why would anyone criticize Venus for contesting that? Especially when she would have been 100% correct in doing so. It's not like she normally contests a lot of points or anything.
Because of what happened to her sister at Roland Garros last year, that's why. Serena was 100% correct when she questioned a couple of line calls, but that didn't stop the crowd inside the stadium from turning on her. Perhaps Venus had that in mind yesterday when she decided not to say anything.

BlinX
Jun 26th, 2004, 12:57 AM
If Venus didn't know the correct score, then why is it fair to accuse Sprem of knowing the correct score???? Where's proof??? K-Lina was just as focused and intense as Venus was.

I agree 100%. :worship: Venus and Sprem were on the same court, playing the same match. If Sprem had not stepped up to complain, Venus could have. It was her choice so people just get over it.

cheesestix
Jun 26th, 2004, 01:05 AM
Because of what happened to her sister at Roland Garros last year, that's why. Serena was 100% correct when she questioned a couple of line calls, but that didn't stop the crowd inside the stadium from turning on her. Perhaps Venus had that in mind yesterday when she decided not to say anything.

I believe the French crowd is a little different than the Wimbledon crowd.

We're also talking about Venus, not Serena.

This also IS different than a line call, IMHO, despite what others say. The point was awarded for a bad first serve, essentially. Unlike a line call, this wouldn't have been a judgement call. It would have been a clear mistake.

Plus, if you're getting beaten the way Venus was, you can't afford to give away any points. She was very close to getting knocked out of Wimbledon, and ultimately, she was. Why care what the crowd thinks? If you get knocked out, it isn't going to matter anyway.

darrinbaker00
Jun 26th, 2004, 01:23 AM
I believe the French crowd is a little different than the Wimbledon crowd.

We're also talking about Venus, not Serena.

This also IS different than a line call, IMHO, despite what others say. The point was awarded for a bad first serve, essentially. Unlike a line call, this wouldn't have been a judgement call. It would have been a clear mistake.

Plus, if you're getting beaten the way Venus was, you can't afford to give away any points. She was very close to getting knocked out of Wimbledon, and ultimately, she was. Why care what the crowd thinks? If you get knocked out, it isn't going to matter anyway.
We have no idea what would have happened if Venus had questioned the umpire about his mistake. Like officials in other sports, this guy might have thought he was infallible and denied making the error. He might have given Venus a warning and/or a point penalty for arguing with him. I'm not saying that Venus was right or wrong for not saying anything, but all those things could have crossed her mind at that time. Also, it wasn't as if Sprem was clearly beating Venus; at that point, Venus was ahead 84-83 in total points won. She probably thought, justifiably so, that she could shake it off, win the tiebreak (which, quite frankly, she SHOULD have done), and take the third set. The only "right" answer is that the mistake never should have happened in the first place.

franny
Jun 26th, 2004, 02:25 AM
Didnīt even the umpire smiled at Sprem when the players were looking confused and lost on court? I remember me thinking: "Why is the umpire smiling towards Sprem"...maybe they have a conspiracy going on??? lol
Lol, I truly hope not. It would suck if they were. But then again, I honestly think that it was just a mistake. It just kinda creeped me out that the umpire was smirking like that after he made a mistake, and even if he didn't know that he made a mistake, why on earth would he be smiling in that tense of a situation. Sprem was probably just smiling back, lol. But the umpire, man, talk about a weirdo!

Kabezya
Jun 26th, 2004, 02:50 AM
Why do people feel it was up to Sprem to query the error?

Ask them, I am not one of the people who called for Sprem to be not only a player but also an ump. Venus and Karolina are players - that's all I ask of them.

bandabou
Jun 26th, 2004, 11:32 AM
I believe the French crowd is a little different than the Wimbledon crowd.

We're also talking about Venus, not Serena.

This also IS different than a line call, IMHO, despite what others say. The point was awarded for a bad first serve, essentially. Unlike a line call, this wouldn't have been a judgement call. It would have been a clear mistake.

Plus, if you're getting beaten the way Venus was, you can't afford to give away any points. She was very close to getting knocked out of Wimbledon, and ultimately, she was. Why care what the crowd thinks? If you get knocked out, it isn't going to matter anyway.

so you mean it wouldnīt have been right to complain if the player was Serena?!