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DA FOREHAND
May 28th, 2004, 05:02 PM
black players can only hope to win on thier athleticism and physical strength... :rolleyes:

lizchris
May 28th, 2004, 05:04 PM
Who said that?

- L i n a -
May 28th, 2004, 05:05 PM
:haha:

DA FOREHAND
May 28th, 2004, 05:06 PM
Who said that?
In so many words some of the commentators and if you read these boards some idiotic fans.

lizchris
May 28th, 2004, 05:06 PM
In so many words some of the commentators and if you read these boards some idiotic fans.
Then how do they explain Venus and Serena being so sucessful?

cheo23
May 28th, 2004, 05:08 PM
Whatever Name the CommentatorS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That Comment is so NOt True! Get it Together Da Forehand!

Tennisfan-Mtl
May 28th, 2004, 05:08 PM
Pleazzzzeeee...

None of that black vs white bullshit....Stop reading or hearing between the lines...

brickhousesupporter
May 28th, 2004, 05:10 PM
Then how do they explain Venus and Serena being so sucessful?


They are very athletic.....come on Liz try and keep up... :rolleyes:

DA FOREHAND
May 28th, 2004, 05:11 PM
Then how do they explain Venus and Serena being so sucessful?
As Chris Evert said after Venus beat Lindsay at the 00 Wimbledon Championships..."Venus just showed who the better athlete is out there today" Not the better player, not played smarter...but damn athleticiscm wins again.

lizchris
May 28th, 2004, 05:11 PM
They are very athletic.....come on Liz try and keep up... :rolleyes:
You don't win as much as they have on being athletic alone.:rolleyes:

That's why I asked the question.

lizchris
May 28th, 2004, 05:12 PM
As Chris Evert said after Venus beat Lindsay at the 00 Wimbledon Championships..."Venus just showed who the better athlete is out there today" Not the better player, not played smarter...but damn athleticiscm wins again.
I wouldn't worry about what she has to say; she no longer has a commentating job.

Tennisfan-Mtl
May 28th, 2004, 05:12 PM
Well..It would be hard to say that the Williams aren't the most athletic players out there :rolleyes: Doesn't mean they are not smart on the court....

bandabou
May 28th, 2004, 05:12 PM
Yeah....didnīt you read it?! Maria K was "out-thinking" Serena yesterday...

DA FOREHAND
May 28th, 2004, 05:13 PM
You don't win as much as they have on being athletic alone.:rolleyes:

That's why I asked the question.
have you heard one commentator say the Venus or Serena outwitted, or outsmarted thier opponent?

In my mind that's exactly what Serena did to Hingis 99 Us Open.

samn
May 28th, 2004, 05:13 PM
As Chris Evert said after Venus beat Lindsay at the 00 Wimbledon Championships..."Venus just showed who the better athlete is out there today" Not the better player, not played smarter...but damn athleticiscm wins again.

Evert used to say that even when Graf played Seles, and when she (Evert, that is) played Navratilova. Besides, what is wrong with being stronger and faster, anyway? Tennis is, after all, a sport .

lizchris
May 28th, 2004, 05:14 PM
have you heard one commentator say the Venus or Serena outwitted, or outsmarted thier opponent?

In my mind that's exactly what Serena did to Hingis 99 Us Open.Of course not.

But that is how most white commentators in the US for any sport thind about black athletes.

DA FOREHAND
May 28th, 2004, 05:16 PM
I wouldn't worry about what she has to say; she no longer has a commentating job.
trust me i'm not...Venus won Lindsay didn't.

She also said V&S have no play "b" and you'll see LIndsay go to plan "b", or start mixing in dropshots etc....as it turned out Venus was the one executing that game plan after falling behind early. Did Evert comment on Venus' ploys? Nope...all she saw was raw athleticism...

bandabou
May 28th, 2004, 05:20 PM
When you watch Serena, does the word "outthink" or "outsmart" comes into mind. :tape:

It's more like, the bull just demolished her opponent with her brute force and agressive play.

You let the size of her body blind you....because the same can be said about Lindsay, Nadia, Elena B, etc too, no?!

DA FOREHAND
May 28th, 2004, 05:21 PM
When you watch Serena, does the word "outthink" or "outsmart" comes into mind. :tape:

It's more like, the bull just demolished her opponent with her brute force and agressive play.
You need a copy of the 99 Us Open Open final?

lizchris
May 28th, 2004, 05:23 PM
trust me i'm not...Venus won Lindsay didn't.

She also said V&S have no play "b" and you'll see LIndsay go to plan "b", or start mixing in dropshots etc....as it turned out Venus was the one executing that game plan after falling behind early. Did Evert comment on Venus' ploys? Nope...all she saw was raw athleticism...
Then I guess she needs to look at the Amelie 2002 final. If Venus didn't have a plam B, she would have lost.

Knizzle
May 28th, 2004, 05:24 PM
When you watch Serena, does the word "outthink" or "outsmart" comes into mind. :tape:

It's more like, the bull just demolished her opponent with her brute force and agressive play.
Exactly the attitude Da Forehand was talking about.

alexusjonesfan
May 28th, 2004, 05:34 PM
The Chip on the Shoulder
by Arthur Guiterman

Learn this now before you are older:
Don’t go through life with a chip on your shoulder,
Always aggrieved and ever offended,
Fancying wrongs that are not intended.
Let not a sense of humor desert you,
Take it that nobody means to hurt you,
Find no insult in idle chatter,
Pass it over; it doesn’t matter.
Look for the best in everybody,
Value the wool, forget the shoddy;
Get in the habit of liking people.
Love is the spire on every steeple.

Helen Lawson
May 28th, 2004, 05:34 PM
Sorry but Neely is lazy as hell and does not care about winning when she is playing in a celebrity tennis tournament. Neely could not outsmart or outthink a fly.

PointBlank
May 28th, 2004, 05:35 PM
G-d :rolleyes: and #1 reason you are probably on of the most racist people on the board :kiss:

mboyle
May 28th, 2004, 05:36 PM
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH THE WHOLE WORLD'S RACIST AS HELL!!!! Stop the madness! STOP THE FREAKING MADNESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Geri
May 28th, 2004, 05:37 PM
You need a copy of the 99 French Open final?
What does that match have to do with this topic?

Crazy_Fool
May 28th, 2004, 05:37 PM
Its true they win because of 2 things:

Power
Mental strength.

Yeh their tennis is good, but its what sepearates them at all imo,if they weren't built like that, they wouldn't stand a chance.

whorehand
May 28th, 2004, 05:39 PM
When you watch Serena, does the word "outthink" or "outsmart" comes into mind. :tape:

It's more like, the bull just demolished her opponent with her brute force and agressive play.

I agree mostly. That's because Serena doesn't need to out-think her opponent because her power tends to do the job. When she wins, her big serve and ground strokes land in. When she loses, as Serena often says herself, its down to her shots going out. You would have to say there's not much thinking going on there.

Knizzle
May 28th, 2004, 05:41 PM
Its true they win because of 2 things:

Power
Mental strength.

Yeh their tennis is good, but its what sepearates them at all imo,if they weren't built like that, they wouldn't stand a chance.

There are many players who are built "like that", as you say, but they have no success, so what separates the sisters from them??

Geri
May 28th, 2004, 05:42 PM
black players can only hope to win on thier athleticism and physical strength... :rolleyes:

Isn't Arthur Ashe's Wimbledon victory considered and often talked about as the greatest 'thought out' win of all time? He definitely did not win that match on sheer force - far from it - and he gets the credit he deserves so I don't think you can make a sweeping generalisation that commentators go by this rule.

bandabou
May 28th, 2004, 05:44 PM
Its true they win because of 2 things:

Power
Mental strength.

Yeh their tennis is good, but its what sepearates them at all imo,if they weren't built like that, they wouldn't stand a chance.


Serenaīs serve alone will always let have a chance!

DA FOREHAND
May 28th, 2004, 05:47 PM
What does that match have to do with this topic?
It's a match in which Serena out/hit/witted/smarted Martina Hingis

Geri
May 28th, 2004, 05:47 PM
There are many players who are built "like that", as you say, but they have no success, so what separates the sisters from them??

You are correct but when a well built white player like Mary Pierce hits someone off court I have not heard her described as outsmarting the opponent either.

Serena thinks out there. We all know that. If commentators disagree then they are not the experts they are supposed to be.

Knizzle
May 28th, 2004, 05:48 PM
Some people have to understand that DAFOREHAND is American and is really lashing out at the American media first and not necessarily the whole world. He may be a little cranky lately, but he has a more than valid point.

bandabou
May 28th, 2004, 05:49 PM
I agree mostly. That's because Serena doesn't need to out-think her opponent because her power tends to do the job. When she wins, her big serve and ground strokes land in. When she loses, as Serena often says herself, its down to her shots going out. You would have to say there's not much thinking going on there.


But duh....if your serve isnīt working and if your shots arenīt falling no matter how you think, you ainīt gonna win, no?!

Geri
May 28th, 2004, 05:50 PM
It's a match in which Serena out/hit/witted/smarted Martina Hingis

Actually Steffi outhit/smarted Hingis in that match. I was not getting on you for making a mistake. I just thought you were maybe making a point about how Steffi is regarded to have outsmart Hingis in that match but Serena never gets that kind of credit.

Knizzle
May 28th, 2004, 05:50 PM
You are correct but when a well built white player like Mary Pierce hits someone off court I have not heard her described as outsmarting the opponent either.

Serena thinks out there. We all know that. If commentators disagree then they are not the experts they are supposed to be.
She probably doesn't get tabbed as overpowering or winning because she hits hard only.

CapFan#1
May 28th, 2004, 05:51 PM
Just because someone says that so&so is a better athlete than so&so, does it mean that the only thing they have going for them is strenth, speed, etc..... Saying someone is a better athlete means that they are stronger, faster, in better condition, thinking better, using better tactics, etc..... It is not so 1 dimensional.

Now I will conceed that some commentators did make the criticism of Venus and Serena that their games were 1 dimensional, no plan b, etc.. But to be fair, when Vee and Rena first came onto the scene, their games were pretty much based on raw power and a game plan of blasting the ball at every chance. Since then, their games have really developed into more than just power---- now there is angles, drop shots, moving to the net to finish with a volley, etc...... When they made these changes is when the ascended the rankings to reach #1!

*JR*
May 28th, 2004, 05:52 PM
As Chris Evert said after Venus beat Lindsay at the 00 Wimbledon Championships..."Venus just showed who the better athlete is out there today" Not the better player, not played smarter...but damn athleticiscm wins again.
Perhaps Chris Can explain Venus' famous comeback win vs. Justine @ AI '02, where she came back from a set and 2 breaks down by doing the exact opposite: playing backboard tennis as her power game Wasn't Working that day. :rolleyes:

TonyP
May 28th, 2004, 05:53 PM
This is garbage, designed to prove that white people are racist. I think more people should listen to what Bill Cosby recently said. And I was very pleased to hear Charles Barkley praise Cosby for it. In effect, both said stop trying to blame everything bad that happens to black people on white racism. There are plenty of problems black people themselves need to stand up and take responsibility for, and that includes the 70 percent out of wedlock birth rate and a very high rate of violent crime in the black community, including murder.

But as long as black people concentrate on proving silling things like the meaning of this thread, no progress will be made on the issues that really matter. They continue to be swept under the rug, because you don't "air dirty laundry."

Geri
May 28th, 2004, 05:55 PM
Pete Sampras always said that he played his best tennis when he didn't think.

It's a sport, not a chess match :scratch:

Yes but you have to be thinking the whole time. Surely that's obvious. Thinking about where to put a serve on a big point. Thinking about when to make a net rush. Thinking about what how to change a match you are losing.

DA FOREHAND
May 28th, 2004, 05:56 PM
What does that match have to do with this topic?
My bad I meant Us Open 99

lizchris
May 28th, 2004, 05:57 PM
This is garbage, designed to prove that white people are racist. I think more people should listen to what Bill Cosby recently said. And I was very pleased to hear Charles Barkley praise Cosby for it. In effect, both said stop trying to blame everything bad that happens to black people on white racism. There are plenty of problems black people themselves need to stand up and take responsibility for, and that includes the 70 percent out of wedlock birth rate and a very high rate of violent crime in the black community, including murder.

But as long as black people concentrate on proving silling things like the meaning of this thread, no progress will be made on the issues that really matter. They continue to be swept under the rug, because you don't "air dirty laundry."
Blacks don't nned whites like you telling us how to think.

Though I don't have a problem with what Bill Cosby said, when it comes to morals, he should shut up. He is the one who admitted to cheating on his wife. Sames goes for Barkely.

Ad far as a high crime rate, while it is disproportanate to the overall black population, I wish whites would get it thought their dumb heads that most blacks in this country are NOT criminals.

BTW, TonyP, can you explain to me why the infertility rate in the white community is abmormal and these people have to try to adopt children they really don't want, like black children?

"Topaz"
May 28th, 2004, 05:58 PM
The Chip on the Shoulder
by Arthur Guiterman

Learn this now before you are older:
Don’t go through life with a chip on your shoulder,
Always aggrieved and ever offended,
Fancying wrongs that are not intended.
Let not a sense of humor desert you,
Take it that nobody means to hurt you,
Find no insult in idle chatter,
Pass it over; it doesn’t matter.
Look for the best in everybody,
Value the wool, forget the shoddy;
Get in the habit of liking people.
Love is the spire on every steeple.God stuff here, folks. Everybody should learn this one or keep it as a private note. The only thing missing is "Watch your blind-side though."

Knizzle
May 28th, 2004, 05:59 PM
This is garbage, designed to prove that white people are racist. I think more people should listen to what Bill Cosby recently said. And I was very pleased to hear Charles Barkley praise Cosby for it. In effect, both said stop trying to blame everything bad that happens to black people on white racism. There are plenty of problems black people themselves need to stand up and take responsibility for, and that includes the 70 percent out of wedlock birth rate and a very high rate of violent crime in the black community, including murder.

But as long as black people concentrate on proving silling things like the meaning of this thread, no progress will be made on the issues that really matter. They continue to be swept under the rug, because you don't "air dirty laundry."
Who are you to talk about what the black community needs to do?? Why don't you focus on the white community and their problems. You just need to leave these particular topics you brought into this thread alone because you are definitely not doing anything to help and are not in ANY position to criticize.

Bill Cosby has no room to talk because he has done plenty of movies where bad English was used. Don't let him fool you. Bill Cosby is jealous because his own elitism hasn't exactly endeared him to the majority of the black community over the years.

LiliaLee-Frazier
May 28th, 2004, 06:00 PM
She is just trying to start trouble or is just incredibly bored with her life. :kiss:

lizchris
May 28th, 2004, 06:01 PM
Who are you to talk about what the black community needs to do?? Why don't you focus on the white community and their problems. You just need to leave these particular topics you brought into this thread alone because you are definitely not doing anything to help and are not in ANY position to criticize.

Bill Cosby has no room to talk because he has done plenty of movies where bad English was used. Don't let him fool you. Bill Cosby is jealous because his own elitism hasn't exactly endeared him to the majority of the black community over the years.
I's still waiting to hear why the infertility rate is abnormal in the white community and why they can't seem to solve that.

DA FOREHAND
May 28th, 2004, 06:03 PM
This is garbage, designed to prove that white people are racist. I think more people should listen to what Bill Cosby recently said. And I was very pleased to hear Charles Barkley praise Cosby for it. In effect, both said stop trying to blame everything bad that happens to black people on white racism. There are plenty of problems black people themselves need to stand up and take responsibility for, and that includes the 70 percent out of wedlock birth rate and a very high rate of violent crime in the black community, including murder.

But as long as black people concentrate on proving silling things like the meaning of this thread, no progress will be made on the issues that really matter. They continue to be swept under the rug, because you don't "air dirty laundry."
I don't see it as a problem at all... commentators and fans can say what they wish about V&S, meanwhile they keep winning. The best revenge is living well, and if you haven't noticed they are the biggest stars in tennis. That doesn't mean I won't speak on the subj. If you knew me personally you'd know that I also take blks to task for always blaming "the man", but this isn't a all about blk. people msg. board it's a tennis msg. board and i'm speaking on the players and fans perceptions....so if you have anything to add on this specific subj. feel free to do so, if not you can go back to your reg. routine of trolling the boards for any mention of Martina Hingis. :wavey:

bandabou
May 28th, 2004, 06:10 PM
No tony p it ainīt blaming nada on nada...itīs just the biasm: white is thinking and black is athletiscism...watch it in the NBA. Blacks canīt shoot and the euroīs are the shooters...etc,

griffin
May 28th, 2004, 06:10 PM
[QUOTE=CapFan#1]Just because someone says that so&so is a better athlete than so&so, does it mean that the only thing they have going for them is strenth, speed, etc..... Saying someone is a better athlete means that they are stronger, faster, in better condition, thinking better, using better tactics, etc..... It is not so 1 dimensional.
[\QUOTE]

It is if that is all they're given credit for - Evert's commentary during Venus' matches the first year she won Wimby is a perfect example. Venus would be on court right in front of her, mixing up her shots, moving an opponent around and pulling her out of position, and Chrissy would go right on saying how Venus only knew one way to play and that was to hit hard.

Do I think people look at Venus and Serena and think "They're black, so they can only win through athleticism"? No. But I do think the stereotypes we all grow up immersed in shape the way we see what people do: that the fact that they're black makes people more likely to only see/recognize their athletic skills.

Rocketta
May 28th, 2004, 06:17 PM
[QUOTE=CapFan#1]Just because someone says that so&so is a better athlete than so&so, does it mean that the only thing they have going for them is strenth, speed, etc..... Saying someone is a better athlete means that they are stronger, faster, in better condition, thinking better, using better tactics, etc..... It is not so 1 dimensional.
[\QUOTE]

It is if that is all they're given credit for - Evert's commentary during Venus' matches the first year she won Wimby is a perfect example. Venus would be on court right in front of her, mixing up her shots, moving an opponent around and pulling her out of position, and Chrissy would go right on saying how Venus only knew one way to play and that was to hit hard.

Do I think people look at Venus and Serena and think "They're black, so they can only win through athleticism"? No. But I do think the stereotypes we all grow up immersed in shape the way we see what people do: that the fact that they're black makes people more likely to only see/recognize their athletic skills.
Damn, I couldn't rep you! Why do I have to spread it around to be able rep a mod again. :fiery: Anyway, here's what I was going to say in the rep.......

:yeah:

Bezz
May 28th, 2004, 06:22 PM
I think there is a certian opinion amoungst alot of people that race plays alot in determing how ppl view them, which is only reinforced by the types of sports black and white ppl enter. Things such as boxing, 100m Sprints, Basketball, all require the main element of power and speed. Where as things like tennis, Golf and even the triple jump rely more on the techincal side as well as the physical side. But since sports are classified as either "white" or "Black" when ppl cross into a sport they traditionally wouldnt, its only normal (i would assume) that people would apply the attributes of there conventional sports to there new one, so serena is gonna be seen as athletic and powerful, and tiger woods only does well cos he has the power to hit balls far. It isnt correct, but its only gonna change when all sports, not just white ones, start to have a more varied selection of players from all walks of life.

Stamp Paid
May 28th, 2004, 06:48 PM
This is garbage, designed to prove that white people are racist. I think more people should listen to what Bill Cosby recently said. And I was very pleased to hear Charles Barkley praise Cosby for it. In effect, both said stop trying to blame everything bad that happens to black people on white racism. There are plenty of problems black people themselves need to stand up and take responsibility for, and that includes the 70 percent out of wedlock birth rate and a very high rate of violent crime in the black community, including murder.

But as long as black people concentrate on proving silling things like the meaning of this thread, no progress will be made on the issues that really matter. They continue to be swept under the rug, because you don't "air dirty laundry."
You know, I don't buy into the significance of the Black illegitimacy rate in the US. I know that black women aren't having MORE sex than white women, and I don't believe black women are having more unprotected sex than white women. I believe if we looked at ABORTION RATES, we would see that the vast majority of white illegitimate conception ends in abortion, whereas Black women don't abort their babies as often as whites do, and they end up having to raise their children without fathers and in low-income neighborhoods.

bandabou
May 28th, 2004, 06:51 PM
You know, I don't buy into the significance of the Black illegitimacy rate in the US. I know that black women aren't having MORE sex than white women, and I don't believe black women are having more unprotected sex than white women. I believe if we looked at ABORTION RATES, we would see that the vast majority of white illegitimate conception ends in abortion, whereas Black women don't abort their babies as often as whites do, and they end up having to raise their children without fathers and in low-income neighborhoods.


You nailed it!

DA FOREHAND
May 28th, 2004, 06:51 PM
I think there is a certian opinion amoungst alot of people that race plays alot in determing how ppl view them, which is only reinforced by the types of sports black and white ppl enter. Things such as boxing, 100m Sprints, Basketball, all require the main element of power and speed. Where as things like tennis, Golf and even the triple jump rely more on the techincal side as well as the physical side. But since sports are classified as either "white" or "Black" when ppl cross into a sport they traditionally wouldnt, its only normal (i would assume) that people would apply the attributes of there conventional sports to there new one, so serena is gonna be seen as athletic and powerful, and tiger woods only does well cos he has the power to hit balls far. It isnt correct, but its only gonna change when all sports, not just white ones, start to have a more varied selection of players from all walks of life.
So you're saying if a blk girl comes along and idolized Hingis, molded her game to Martina's, she'd still be stuck w/the she's athletic tag?

Bezz
May 28th, 2004, 06:59 PM
So you're saying if a blk girl comes along and idolized Hingis, molded her game to Martina's, she'd still be stuck w/the she's athletic tag?
Well, maybe, but i think its got alot to do with the stature of a player aswell. Chanda is credited with having skill on the court especially at the net, but with serena and venus they look physically imposing. So if a new black girl came on the scene and was only 5'6 5'7 and average build, i think she would get labelled a techincal player if she played like that. I mean not many praise pierce as very technical, the same as they dont for petrova or bovina.

Bezz
May 28th, 2004, 07:04 PM
You know, I don't buy into the significance of the Black illegitimacy rate in the US. I know that black women aren't having MORE sex than white women, and I don't believe black women are having more unprotected sex than white women. I believe if we looked at ABORTION RATES, we would see that the vast majority of white illegitimate conception ends in abortion, whereas Black women don't abort their babies as often as whites do, and they end up having to raise their children without fathers and in low-income neighborhoods.
I would like to know where yu got your stats from for some of these statements :confused: . How do yu know that a MAJORITY of illegitmate conception by white women ends in abortion. I think if anything its probably less than 10%.

Renee
May 28th, 2004, 07:08 PM
You know, I don't buy into the significance of the Black illegitimacy rate in the US. I know that black women aren't having MORE sex than white women, and I don't believe black women are having more unprotected sex than white women. I believe if we looked at ABORTION RATES, we would see that the vast majority of white illegitimate conception ends in abortion, whereas Black women don't abort their babies as often as whites do, and they end up having to raise their children without fathers and in low-income neighborhoods.


:tape: :worship:

DA FOREHAND
May 28th, 2004, 07:14 PM
Well, maybe, but i think its got alot to do with the stature of a player aswell. Chanda is credited with having skill on the court especially at the net, but with serena and venus they look physically imposing. So if a new black girl came on the scene and was only 5'6 5'7 and average build, i think she would get labelled a techincal player if she played like that. I mean not many praise pierce as very technical, the same as they dont for petrova or bovina.

Venus Williams more physically imposing than Lindsay? Bovina?

DA FOREHAND
May 28th, 2004, 07:14 PM
:tape: You know, I don't buy into the significance of the Black illegitimacy rate in the US. I know that black women aren't having MORE sex than white women, and I don't believe black women are having more unprotected sex than white women. I believe if we looked at ABORTION RATES, we would see that the vast majority of white illegitimate conception ends in abortion, whereas Black women don't abort their babies as often as whites do, and they end up having to raise their children without fathers and in low-income neighborhoods.
:tape: :tape: :worship:

bandabou
May 28th, 2004, 07:15 PM
I would like to know where yu got your stats from for some of these statements :confused: . How do yu know that a MAJORITY of illegitmate conception by white women ends in abortion. I think if anything its probably less than 10%.

Where did tonyP get his numbers?!

- L i n a -
May 28th, 2004, 07:23 PM
You shouldn't reply to a blatant trolling topic like this... :p

Anyway, I'll share my views which everyone will probably hate.

1) As we know... as a majority, blacks have proven themselves to be better athletes... and as a majority, whites have proven to be smarter, and willing to be more educated. The hypersensitive blacks can give any reasons they want for this... it's not stereotype, the stats prove this.

2) As for the Williams girls... their fans have to realize that they are power players. Yes, tennis fans like me know that they're much more than that... they have incredible quickness, and have the ability to hit angles, and mix it up...

However, if they weren't amongst the hardest hitters on tour... they would be nowhere near the Top 10. If they didn't have the other attributes that I mentioned, they would still be amongst the best players in tennis today. They would, in effect, be like Maria Sharapova.

azza
May 28th, 2004, 07:26 PM
black players can only hope to win on thier athleticism and physical strength... :rolleyes:
cant say that about Steveson :haha:

bandabou
May 28th, 2004, 07:27 PM
You shouldn't reply to a blatant trolling topic like this... :p

Anyway, I'll share my views which everyone will probably hate.

1) As we know... as a majority, blacks have proven themselves to be better athletes... and as a majority, whites have proven to be smarter, and willing to be more educated. The hypersensitive blacks can give any reasons they want for this... it's not stereotype, the stats prove this.

2) As for the Williams girls... their fans have to realize that they are power players. Yes, tennis fans like me know that they're much more than that... they have incredible quickness, and have the ability to hit angles, and mix it up...

However, if they weren't amongst the hardest hitters on tour... they would be nowhere near the Top 10. If they didn't have the other attributes that I mentioned, they would still be amongst the best players in tennis today. They would, in effect, be like Maria Sharapova.


You were quick to point out that itīs the russians who are just power players...

DA FOREHAND
May 28th, 2004, 07:29 PM
You shouldn't reply to a blatant trolling topic like this... :p

Anyway, I'll share my views which everyone will probably hate.

1) As we know... as a majority, blacks have proven themselves to be better athletes... and as a majority, whites have proven to be smarter, and willing to be more educated. The hypersensitive blacks can give any reasons they want for this... it's not stereotype, the stats prove this.

2) As for the Williams girls... their fans have to realize that they are power players. Yes, tennis fans like me know that they're much more than that... they have incredible quickness, and have the ability to hit angles, and mix it up...

However, if they weren't amongst the hardest hitters on tour... they would be nowhere near the Top 10. If they didn't have the other attributes that I mentioned, they would still be amongst the best players in tennis today. They would, in effect, be like Maria Sharapova.


YOU ARE A DUMBASS!

Mary Pierce, Marjiana Lucic, Jelena Dokic all hit the ball as hard or harder yet I don't see them near the top, and they have two slams between them both owned by Mary.

You basically contridicted yourself, on one hand you say you're wise...er smart enough to realize that they do more than just hit the ball hard, then in typical fashion you go and say they'd be nothing if they couldn't hit the ball hard....

Step off.

azinna
May 28th, 2004, 07:35 PM
Well, my early years as a serious tennis fan were spent trying to convince others that an in-form, calm and efficient Steffi Graf played with a good deal of finesse, anticipation and point construction. My arguments rarely influenced anyone, mostly because Steffi's power and athleticism made a big impression on fans and players alike.

I didn't mind, though. Because the tour's players and coaches spent so much time strategising against her power that come court time they were dumbfounded by the lowness of her slice, the slow angle of her wide 1st serve, the kick of her 2nd, the crispness of her occasional volleys or by their fatigue at running from side to side to side (weren't Steffi points supposed to be short?) . For years, up until 1999 even, there seemed to be two Steffi Grafs: the Forehand against whom the tour plotted and the Near-Complete Player that showed up, took whatever you came up with as a plan, and eventually spanked you with it. I think the one person who benefited most from the misrepresentation of Steffi was Steffi herself. And as a Williams fan, I'm keenly aware of the same damn thing happening all over again. History always repeats itself; it's just that folks don't pay attention.

Black Mamba.
May 28th, 2004, 07:36 PM
Guys, people are racist we know that and the standard at which White athletes and Black athletes are judged is unfair, but that is just how life is. If we stop and dwell on every little thing like how commentators describe different players we are setting ourselves up to have conversations on race that spiral put of control like this one has. In my life I've dealt with racism not by dwelling on it, but overcoming it because I understand if I dwell on it it will turn me into the racist people I encounter.

Bezz
May 28th, 2004, 07:37 PM
Its also abit difficult to judge that all black players will get labelled as athletic aswell, cos there are only 3 in the top 50. And one of those, Chanda, isnt labelled as a power player or hard hitter anyway. Since serena and venus are sisters and played each other all there life, its not that surprising they play the same type of game. Its abit premature to start thinking all black players will only be labelled athletic and nothing else. :)

faboozadoo15
May 28th, 2004, 08:05 PM
As Chris Evert said after Venus beat Lindsay at the 00 Wimbledon Championships..."Venus just showed who the better athlete is out there today" Not the better player, not played smarter...but damn athleticiscm wins again.
wow, you are just looking for things to hate people for! that was a compliment! she was able to get to the ball quicker, stay balanced, and hit harder-- that's tennis. if someone called u "the better athlete" i'd hope you could takle a compliment out of that!

and chris evert didn't say she wasn't as smart and that she wasn't the better player...

faboozadoo15
May 28th, 2004, 08:15 PM
YOU ARE A DUMBASS!

Mary Pierce, Marjiana Lucic, Jelena Dokic all hit the ball as hard or harder yet I don't see them near the top, and they have two slams between them both owned by Mary.

Step off.
that's just to name a few. if there were more black girls, we would see some players like smashnova or hingis who play a lot of strategy, but when all we see is venus and serena, people could think that all black girls just overpower. venus and serena do what they need to do to be the best, and no one can be mad for them being there. they may win a different way, but it's all about keeping the ball between the lines.
we in general have seen a lot of tactical players who were white and ultimate power players who are black. venus and serena have strategy to beat the band, don't get me wrong. they're consistent too. but they win more points by simply hitting the ball hard. so when they see a slight russian girl go against her, they want her to win... it's biblical.

faboozadoo15
May 28th, 2004, 08:16 PM
Venus Williams more physically imposing than Lindsay? Bovina?
yes! and she should be praised for it! look at her muscles, her shoulders, her legs. you go up against her and you know you're in a battle.

no offense to lindsay and bovina.

bandabou
May 28th, 2004, 08:19 PM
Well, my early years as a serious tennis fan were spent trying to convince others that an in-form, calm and efficient Steffi Graf played with a good deal of finesse, anticipation and point construction. My arguments rarely influenced anyone, mostly because Steffi's power and athleticism made a big impression on fans and players alike.

I didn't mind, though. Because the tour's players and coaches spent so much time strategising against her power that come court time they were dumbfounded by the lowness of her slice, the slow angle of her wide 1st serve, the kick of her 2nd, the crispness of her occasional volleys or by their fatigue at running from side to side to side (weren't Steffi points supposed to be short?) . For years, up until 1999 even, there seemed to be two Steffi Grafs: the Forehand against whom the tour plotted and the Near-Complete Player that showed up, took whatever you came up with as a plan, and eventually spanked you with it. I think the one person who benefited most from the misrepresentation of Steffi was Steffi herself. And as a Williams fan, I'm keenly aware of the same damn thing happening all over again. History always repeats itself; it's just that folks don't pay attention.


It does, it does!

faboozadoo15
May 28th, 2004, 08:20 PM
You know, I don't buy into the significance of the Black illegitimacy rate in the US. I know that black women aren't having MORE sex than white women, and I don't believe black women are having more unprotected sex than white women. I believe if we looked at ABORTION RATES, we would see that the vast majority of white illegitimate conception ends in abortion, whereas Black women don't abort their babies as often as whites do, and they end up having to raise their children without fathers and in low-income neighborhoods.
you are probably right. but you are foolish to think that the "vast majority" of illigitimate pregnancies end in abortion...
i have a question though-- why do so many black men leave their children and mother of their children? thoughts on that?

Martian Willow
May 28th, 2004, 08:22 PM
...only morally impeccable black people can sort out 'the black community's' problems...good luck to ya... :)

bandabou
May 28th, 2004, 08:23 PM
that's just to name a few. if there were more black girls, we would see some players like smashnova or hingis who play a lot of strategy, but when all we see is venus and serena, people could think that all black girls just overpower. venus and serena do what they need to do to be the best, and no one can be mad for them being there. they may win a different way, but it's all about keeping the ball between the lines.
we in general have seen a lot of tactical players who were white and ultimate power players who are black. venus and serena have strategy to beat the band, don't get me wrong. they're consistent too. but they win more points by simply hitting the ball hard. so when they see a slight russian girl go against her, they want her to win... it's biblical.


Sounds like someone in your sign..the description of venus and serena...

faboozadoo15
May 28th, 2004, 08:25 PM
Sounds like someone in your sign..the description of venus and serena...
i don't know what that was supposed to mean...

jenny161185
May 28th, 2004, 08:26 PM
Ofcourse Venus and Serena think out there - Every player does even if they seem a bit whack whack whack, and then there are exceptions like Martina Hingis and Amy Frazier who think ALOT when oncourt .

Martian Willow
May 28th, 2004, 08:28 PM
...by the way, did anyone mention Chanda Rubin yet...? :)

DA FOREHAND
May 28th, 2004, 08:32 PM
wow, you are just looking for things to hate people for! that was a compliment! she was able to get to the ball quicker, stay balanced, and hit harder-- that's tennis. if someone called u "the better athlete" i'd hope you could takle a compliment out of that!

and chris evert didn't say she wasn't as smart and that she wasn't the better player...
I don't hate anyone.

To basically say the only reason she won a match was because she was the better athlete is a backhanded compliment, but thanks for pointing out that there is a tiny compliment in there somewhere.

You're pretty smart for a white guy...That's a compliment ....right? :rolleyes:

DA FOREHAND
May 28th, 2004, 08:32 PM
Ofcourse Venus and Serena think out there - Every player does even if they seem a bit whack whack whack, and then there are exceptions like Martina Hingis and Amy Frazier who think ALOT when oncourt .
Yeah Martina "thought" she couldn't hang anymore so she quit.

Bezz
May 28th, 2004, 08:33 PM
Yeah Martina "thought" she couldn't hang anymore so she quit.
She hung around to score more wins over the Williams than any other player :rolleyes:

Bezz
May 28th, 2004, 08:34 PM
...by the way, did anyone mention Chanda Rubin yet...? :)
I did, but it was just ignored :tape: ;)

Knizzle
May 28th, 2004, 08:36 PM
I did, but it was just ignored :tape: ;)
What about Chanda??

faboozadoo15
May 28th, 2004, 08:36 PM
You're pretty smart for a white guy...That's a compliment ....right? :rolleyes:
this is a sport! to call someong the "better athlete" is a compliment. the end. there was no racial slur in there like that thing you just handed over right there. the better athlete competes better and wins. to be the better athlete and lose wouldn't make much sense in a sport, would it? unless someone took you out of your game...

bandabou
May 28th, 2004, 08:37 PM
i don't know what that was supposed to mean...

go re-read your post about venus and serena. How did you think your fav wins almost all her points?!

Bezz
May 28th, 2004, 08:37 PM
What about Chanda??
exactly lol ;)

DA FOREHAND
May 28th, 2004, 08:39 PM
this is a sport! to call someong the "better athlete" is a compliment. the end. there was no racial slur in there like that thing you just handed over right there. the better athlete competes better and wins. to be the better athlete and lose wouldn't make much sense in a sport, would it? unless someone took you out of your game...
I know you're not that dense.


And had Lindsay won, I wouldn't have been the least bit surprised if she'd said well the smarter player won today.

bandabou
May 28th, 2004, 08:39 PM
Please...we donīt wanna denigrade the sisters by including Chanda in this conversation, do we?!

Knizzle
May 28th, 2004, 08:39 PM
exactly lol ;)
Obviously someone is trying to make a point by mentioning Chanda. What is it??

faboozadoo15
May 28th, 2004, 08:44 PM
go re-read your post about venus and serena. How did you think your fav wins almost all her points?!
yea, i see. and that's precisely why monica didn't have crowds on her side and why people said she won everything with power. i didn't mind. i loved watching her sharp angles, her blistering, well- timed returns. i love power tennis, and i defended it with my post. monica has the crowds on her side now because everyone has gotten to see how beautiful of a person she is.

venus and serena have strategy to beat the band, don't get me wrong. they're consistent too. but they win more points by simply hitting the ball hard. so when they see a slight russian girl go against her, they want her to win... it's biblical.

that's what i said in my post ^^^^
looks like there are a lot of parallels between the williams sisters and monica!
btw, i should also add that hitting the ball harder takes more timing and energy-- therefore you deserve each point you get by outhitting your opponent.

bandabou
May 28th, 2004, 08:47 PM
yea, i see. and that's precisely why monica didn't have crowds on her side and why people said she won everything with power. i didn't mind. i loved watching her sharp angles, her blistering, well- timed returns. i love power tennis, and i defended it with my post. monica has the crowds on her side now because everyone has gotten to see how beautiful of a person she is.

venus and serena have strategy to beat the band, don't get me wrong. they're consistent too. but they win more points by simply hitting the ball hard. so when they see a slight russian girl go against her, they want her to win... it's biblical.

that's what i said in my post ^^^^
looks like there are a lot of parallels between the williams sisters and monica!
btw, i should also add that hitting the ball harder takes more timing and energy-- therefore you deserve each point you get by outhitting your opponent.


O.k. dan!

SJW
May 28th, 2004, 08:49 PM
if if if if if......if Serena and Venus didn't have arms, they wouldn't be as good, so the view that they only are good cuz they have power is complete bull :kiss:

V&S do not hit has hard as they can on court...this should be noted. they take pace off, mix it up, Serena likes her angles and Venus is the volleyer and better drop shotter out of the two...if they did just play "power tennis" nobody would be able to touch them...i've seen them get fed up and just hit the cover off the ball...particularly remember the RG semi vs Justine Serena just wacked a forehand that was right next to Juju, but she didn't even move cuz it was so hard....

fact is that physically, they are good. sport is physical. mentally, they are brilliant, and tactics don't just involve hitting drop shots and slice...to have the ability to place the ball where you want it with that much power over and over again has a lot to do with mental ability, motor programmes and such.

so re. race, i'm frickin' sick of it. ignoring it is the best way.

Bezz
May 28th, 2004, 08:49 PM
Obviously someone is trying to make a point by mentioning Chanda. What is it??

The point is, the thread starter said that all black players will be labelled athelitc and strong, and nothing else. Well there is chanda, last time i looked she was black, but is by no means is the strongest or most atheltic person on the tour, she has to mix up her shots and uses and all court game. No one thinks of her as a power player at all, she is a tactical player. The fact there isnt enough black ppl in the game makes it difficult to make a general sweeping statement of how black players will be percieved.

faboozadoo15
May 28th, 2004, 08:49 PM
I know you're not that dense.


And had Lindsay won, I wouldn't have been the least bit surprised if she'd said well the smarter player won today.
i see what you mean.
however, for a player who is not as fit as venus, they do need to strategize against her to optimize their chances of winning each point.

if lindsay would have won that match, she probably would have played smarter tennis than venus.

lindsay could have taken that as a diss to her fitness and saying that she couldn't win a fitness war against venus. (which would be true)

this could go both ways...

faboozadoo15
May 28th, 2004, 08:51 PM
O.k. dan!
you're welcome. i never have any trouble with the comparison of the williams sisters to monica (though i don't really like serena).
they're so fun to watch in the same way she was and is, but they have the quickness she didn't have and she has the angles that no one has.

bandabou
May 28th, 2004, 08:52 PM
The point is, the thread starter said that all black players will be labelled athelitc and strong, and nothing else. Well there is chanda, last time i looked she was black, but is by no means is the strongest or most atheltic person on the tour, she has to mix up her shots and uses and all court game. No one thinks of her as a power player at all, she is a tactical player. The fact there isnt enough black ppl in the game makes it difficult to make a general sweeping statement of how black players will be percieved.


So the Williamses ARE?!

DA FOREHAND
May 28th, 2004, 08:52 PM
The point is, the thread starter said that all black players will be labelled athelitc and strong, and nothing else. Well there is chanda, last time i looked she was black, but is by no means is the strongest or most atheltic person on the tour, she has to mix up her shots and uses and all court game. No one thinks of her as a power player at all, she is a tactical player. The fact there isnt enough black ppl in the game makes it difficult to make a general sweeping statement of how black players will be percieved.
I never once used the word "all"

bandabou
May 28th, 2004, 08:54 PM
you're welcome. i never have any trouble with the comparison of the williams sisters to monica (though i don't really like serena).
they're so fun to watch in the same way she was and is, but they have the quickness she didn't have and she has the angles that no one has.


:yeah:...now if you only loved Serena, you could see that her angles do rival Monicaīs at times! :lol:

Black Mamba.
May 28th, 2004, 08:54 PM
Race has nothing to do with this guys. Sports commentators have been using the same language for years, it's not that big of a deal. For example in the NBA they talk about how European players are more fundamentally sound, while American players specifically Black players are more athletic. IMO this isn't true, Vee and Serena are very good tennis players and it isn't because they are just athletic, but because they are complete players.

Knizzle
May 28th, 2004, 08:54 PM
The point is, the thread starter said that all black players will be labelled athelitc and strong, and nothing else. Well there is chanda, last time i looked she was black, but is by no means is the strongest or most atheltic person on the tour, she has to mix up her shots and uses and all court game. No one thinks of her as a power player at all, she is a tactical player. The fact there isnt enough black ppl in the game makes it difficult to make a general sweeping statement of how black players will be percieved.
Chanda was dubbed with the "athletic" label in her best years on tour. She has lost some of that athleticism these days. When she wins today all you hear is her dominating with her forehand. Chanda is considered a power player. No one calls Chanda a smart player either.

DA FOREHAND
May 28th, 2004, 08:54 PM
you're welcome. i never have any trouble with the comparison of the williams sisters to monica (though i don't really like serena).
they're so fun to watch in the same way she was and is, but they have the quickness she didn't have and she has the angles that no one has.
Yeah well as it turned out Lindsay started off blowing Venus off the court, Venus (in her own words "stopped feeding her", ) changed her strategy mixed it up hit some droppers ...in effect outsmarted Lindsay and the rest is history.

bandabou
May 28th, 2004, 08:57 PM
Yeah well as it turned out Lindsay started off blowing Venus off the court, Venus (in her own words "stopped feeding her", ) changed her strategy mixed it up hit some droppers ...in effect outsmarted Lindsay and the rest is history.

bingo!

bandabou
May 28th, 2004, 08:57 PM
Chanda was dubbed with the "athletic" label in her best years on tour. She has lost some of that athleticism these days. When she wins today all you hear is her dominating with her forehand. Chanda is considered a power player. No one calls Chanda a smart player either.


ssshhh......

faboozadoo15
May 28th, 2004, 08:59 PM
:yeah:...now if you only loved Serena, you could see that her angles do rival Monicaīs at times! :lol:
haha, she's warming on me. i was happy she pulled that match out yesterday. plus, if she wins the olympics, mmmm, mmm. i don't hater her or anything, it's just a like to see people give her a challenge.

and in response-- well maybe-- at TIMES. her forehand is there sometimes, but her backhand crosscourt has a ways to go ;)

Doc
May 28th, 2004, 08:59 PM
1) As we know... as a majority, blacks have proven themselves to be better athletes... and as a majority, whites have proven to be smarter, and willing to be more educated. The hypersensitive blacks can give any reasons they want for this... it's not stereotype, the stats prove this.

This is awful stereotyping. The sort this thread is all about.

"White people" whatever race they are supposed to be. (There is actually no such thing as a "white" race genetically) are not "proven smarter and more willing to be educated"". Well-off people with more advantages and resources, do better at school, go to better schools, and get better motivation and support.

This is also why black people aren't seen much in sports that need a lot of finance or facilities to take part in - polo, golf, sailing, etc. They have only the "cheap" sports like football, basketball, boxing, where the facilities required are goal, a hoop or a pair of gloves.

2) As for the Williams girls... their fans have to realize that they are power players. Yes, tennis fans like me know that they're much more than that... they have incredible quickness, and have the ability to hit angles, and mix it up...

However, if they weren't amongst the hardest hitters on tour... they would be nowhere near the Top 10. If they didn't have the other attributes that I mentioned, they would still be amongst the best players in tennis today. They would, in effect, be like Maria Sharapova.

So what you are saying is that without hard-hitting V & S would be nowhere near the top? I don't think so. Of course hard-hitting is part of their game. You can't survive without power today (look at Hingis). But defining them ONLY as hard-hitters seems to me to be a way of belittling their achievements, and making it seem as if it is unfair of such big nasty women to come in among the delicate flowers....

Venus and Serena revolutionised tennis, not just by being big, but with accuracy, speed and new tactics. That's why they made a bigger impact than say Brenda Schultz or Betty Stove.

Bezz
May 28th, 2004, 09:00 PM
I never once used the word "all"
Well the title of your thread and subsequent post didnt imply that. There was no "some" or "many".

SJW
May 28th, 2004, 09:00 PM
Venus and Serena revolutionised tennis, not just by being big, but with accuracy, speed and new tactics.
i think i found my new sig :)

Knizzle
May 28th, 2004, 09:06 PM
Riddle me this people. There are other players like Clijsters/Capriati who are just as powerful as the sisters, almost as athletic, and thought to make less errors and hit a cleaner ball, why are their H2H records poor against the sisters??

faboozadoo15
May 28th, 2004, 09:10 PM
Riddle me this people. There are other players like Clijsters/Capriati who are just as powerful as the sisters, almost as athletic, and thought to make less errors and hit a cleaner ball, why are their H2H records poor against the sisters??
the serve...
sorry, but at times, it's just that simple. capriati's is very good for her height, but it doesn't hold up or penetrate for as long in a match as it used to, and kim's just plain isn't as good as venus's or serena's.

i should add that they can win at times because their games match up well in everything else, and if cap or kim have a good returning day, it equalizes it.

Bezz
May 28th, 2004, 09:11 PM
Riddle me this people. There are other players like Clijsters/Capriati who are just as powerful as the sisters, almost as athletic, and thought to make less errors and hit a cleaner ball, why are their H2H records poor against the sisters??
Capriati's record isnt that bad, she hasnt any win over venus, but they hardly play.

There record is so poor cos they havernt figured out how to beat them, kim has wins over both but hasnt been able to be more consistent. I think kim is just as athletic as serena and venus, and i think on the court is a better mover than venus cos she doesnt get caught up and wrong footed like venus can. Also there is the mental side, venus and serena are really confident and are strong mentally in every match.

Knizzle
May 28th, 2004, 09:13 PM
the serve...
sorry, but at times, it's just that simple. capriati's is very good for her height, but it doesn't hold up or penetrate for as long in a match as it used to, and kim's just plain isn't as good as venus's or serena's.

i should add that they can win at times because their games match up well in everything else, and if cap or kim have a good returning day, it equalizes it. They are just as powerful, why aren't their serves on par with the sisters'??

bandabou
May 28th, 2004, 09:15 PM
the serve...
sorry, but at times, it's just that simple. capriati's is very good for her height, but it doesn't hold up or penetrate for as long in a match as it used to, and kim's just plain isn't as good as venus's or serena's.

i should add that they can win at times because their games match up well in everything else, and if cap or kim have a good returning day, it equalizes it.


And thatīs the thing....it ainīt just the power, itīs the whole package. Really the sisters arenīt the best at almost anything, but they donīt have no obvious holes either, specially serena.

Plenty people can hang with serena off the ground, but canīt serve as well. Lindsay can serve nearly as well, but she canīt move with Serena, etc....just the package.

bandabou
May 28th, 2004, 09:16 PM
Capriati's record isnt that bad, she hasnt any win over venus, but they hardly play.

There record is so poor cos they havernt figured out how to beat them, kim has wins over both but hasnt been able to be more consistent. I think kim is just as athletic as serena and venus, and i think on the court is a better mover than venus cos she doesnt get caught up and wrong footed like venus can. Also there is the mental side, venus and serena are really confident and are strong mentally in every match.


Thought it was all about power?! :shrug:

Knizzle
May 28th, 2004, 09:17 PM
Capriati's record isnt that bad, she hasnt any win over venus, but they hardly play.

There record is so poor cos they havernt figured out how to beat them, kim has wins over both but hasnt been able to be more consistent. I think kim is just as athletic as serena and venus, and i think on the court is a better mover than venus cos she doesnt get caught up and wrong footed like venus can. Also there is the mental side, venus and serena are really confident and are strong mentally in every match.
They haven't figured out how to beat them. :eek:

Could it be that the sisters are outsmarting them on the court??

The sisters aren't consistent on their games if you listen to most people so what gives??

Why still does every article and every commentator still say that V and S are overpowering people who have just as much power as them?? People who are also given credit for being more talented.

bandabou
May 28th, 2004, 09:17 PM
haha, she's warming on me. i was happy she pulled that match out yesterday. plus, if she wins the olympics, mmmm, mmm. i don't hater her or anything, it's just a like to see people give her a challenge.

and in response-- well maybe-- at TIMES. her forehand is there sometimes, but her backhand crosscourt has a ways to go ;)


Now, during her first round match....Serena hit a angled cross-court backhand...my, my!!

Callie20
May 28th, 2004, 09:31 PM
you are probably right. but you are foolish to think that the "vast majority" of illigitimate pregnancies end in abortion...
i have a question though-- why do so many black men leave their children and mother of their children? thoughts on that? Shouldn't this topic be in the non-tennis forum? What does the absence of black males have to do with tennis?:rolleyes:

dreamgoddess099
May 28th, 2004, 09:45 PM
As for white always accusing blacks about whining about racism; that's like a rich person sitting at on end of a table with more food than they can possibly eat, but instead of having compassion for the starving person at the other end of the table; he calls him annoying and whining about being hungry. Racism will stop being talked about when it no long exists. Just like homelessness and hunger. The only way to solve a problem is by bring attention to the subject. Problems don't just go away, they are solved because people bring attention to them and action is taking. Complants about the subject will not stop until action is takin to solve the problem. That's like saying that people dying in war torn countries should just stop whining and die waiting for the bombs to stop comming on their own. I guess they are annoying too for not accepting their deathes in silience.

abayen
May 28th, 2004, 09:49 PM
dont stir up trouble for no reason!

serena and venus are known for their athleticism! just like lindsay is known for sheer power! no one says lindsay outsmarted her opponent either!

people will always be perceived for one unique strength. serena and venus outsmart their opponent? comeon, you know it as much as the next person- that's not how they win their points...

graf will always be remembered for her forehand... but do you guys remember her shot which baffled seles the most.. it was graf's low slice... the point i am trying to make is people associate great sportsperson usually with one trait or the other. and athleticism for venus and serena (and don't go about accusing me for clubbin them together) is the rare unique trait...

and dont be such an overzealous fan that you want us to call venus/serena great athletes, great thinkers, best forehand, best serve and tomorrow best volleyers.. let them first prove themselves consistently before we give them the greatest labels... when it comes to where martina N, steffi, chris, and monica are most of the current players (venus , serena, the retired martina hingis, jennifer, lindsay) pale in comparison.. so being a true tennis fan, even if i accord them with one great attribute, that's a lot....

and yes i am from a minority community; i have often been discriminated against (as much as by black folks as by the white ones and even by a few asians).. but i still dont think comments against serena or venus are racist...
anyone who thinks so is plain silly.

faste5683
May 28th, 2004, 10:48 PM
Ad far as a high crime rate, while it is disproportanate to the overall black population, I wish whites would get it thought their dumb heads that most blacks in this country are NOT criminals.


The majority of whites don't think that way. As a matter of fact, I don't think they worry too much about it at all. They have school, jobs, no jobs, kids, personal and professional problems of their own to deal with. Just like you.

:wavey:

faste5683
May 28th, 2004, 10:51 PM
No tony p it ainīt blaming nada on nada...itīs just the biasm: white is thinking and black is athletiscism...watch it in the NBA. Blacks canīt shoot and the euroīs are the shooters...etc,

Well, you got to admit those damn Euro's CAN shoot the eyes out of it.

:eek:

:wavey:

cheesestix
May 28th, 2004, 10:59 PM
As for white always accusing blacks about whining about racism; that's like a rich person sitting at on end of a table with more food than they can possibly eat, but instead of having compassion for the starving person at the other end of the table; he calls him annoying and whining about being hungry.

Nobody's denying that racism exists. But some people bitch about racism when it sometimes is not there. Some people LOOK for it in everything that doesn't go their way. It's sometimes used as an excuse. I don't know that I wouldn't be the same way if I had to go through that, but that doesn't make it right.

When a black person:

doesn't get a job
gets cut off by another car in traffic
gets shitty service at a restaurant

is it ALWAYS racism?????? NO!

Shit happens to everyone, regardless of race, nationality, color, whatever.

But I'll bet you there are SOME on this board whose first inclination in all 3 of the scenarios above is to blame it on racism! There are some people that think EVERYTHING that doesn't go their way is because of racism, rather than accept any responsibility for it, or to realize that shit happens to everyone. Who on this board hasn't had all 3 happen to them? But are we all black? No.

No doubt racism exists, and no doubt people get discriminated against based on their skin color, but some people become so sensitive to it that they blur the line between "racism" and "shit happens". Instead of saying "Well, maybe this waiter just sucks." or looking around and seeing that other (white) patrons are getting shitty service too, some are too quick to say "Oh, the waiter's just ignoring me because I'm black."

This thread is bullshit anyway. The guy's digging up a quote from FOUR YEARS AGO to prove his point! And his point ain't even valid based on that quote! It's open to interpretation.

volta
May 28th, 2004, 11:06 PM
WTF is this doing with race? now because iīm black i canīt be smart? f*** off and the williams they are smart thank you itīs just their type of game (wich every player is doing now kim, Sharapova and others). this has nothing to do with race. get over it

cheesestix
May 28th, 2004, 11:29 PM
WTF is this doing with race? now because iīm black i canīt be smart? f*** off and the williams they are smart thank you itīs just their type of game (wich every player is doing now kim, Sharapova and others). this has nothing to do with race. get over it

1. The title was meant to be sarcastic (I think).

2. Nobody said that the Williams sisters aren't smart. (That's just what the creator of this thread read into a quote from FOUR YEARS AGO)

3. Nobody said that black people arent' smart (...as the creator seems to imply).

4. I agree, this thread is bullshit. (Somebody wants to bitch about something.)

TNT96
May 28th, 2004, 11:38 PM
Ignorant Thread By A Very Ignorant Poster-always Negative And Always Looking To Bring Up Something Racial-do Us A Favor And Shut Up

MrSerenaWilliams
May 29th, 2004, 02:25 AM
Wow, it's posts and threads like this that truly make me realize how far as a people we have to come. It's not enough that Serena and Venus puts women's tennis on a GLOBAL MAP, it's not enough that not only are they popular, and to some, sexy, but THEY WIN. It's not enough that they donate their winnings to charities, and give up their time for charitable foundations. It's not enough that they will go down in history as the greatest tennis family in history. They've won a combined 26 grand slam titles, including at least one title for every discipline (singles, doubles, mixed) at all four grand slam events. Why do people CONSTANTLY insist in diminishing their accomplishments. Hell, they set the bar. Look at Justine. Before '03 she was as dainty as a daisy. Now, she's one of the stockiest women on tour. The Williams Sisters (clearly the target of this biggotist thread) are more than just pure, raw athletes (forget the fact that tennis after all is a sport!). They think, plan, and strategise (Serena takes notes during her matches during change-overs and reads them to remind herself of what she needs to do. WHO ELSE ON TOUR DOES THAT?!?!?!?!).

Just accept it....The Williams Sisters are GREAT TENNIS PLAYERS. Refusing to acknowledge and accept that just makes you igorant and bitter.

TonyP
May 29th, 2004, 02:29 AM
Again, the problem with this thread is that it is not only insulting to white people and thus sparks responses, but it also focuses blacks minds on such trivial matters that they tend to ignore things of much more significance.

Find something a little more significant than what some commentator said to worry about.

And stop attributing everything in life to race. That has been the trouble since the beginning with making the race of Venus and Serena so important, when they were neither the first black girls in tennis, nor the only black girls. But the more people brought up their race, the more they made tennis about things it is not all about.

Tennis itself is colorblind. The ball goes where you hit it and it doesn't know what color your are when you hit it. Tennis is not about payback for discrimination or Jim Crow laws or slavery or the Dred Scott decision or anything else. Its just a sport.

Fingon
May 29th, 2004, 02:45 AM
black players can only hope to win on thier athleticism and physical strength... :rolleyes:
if there is no controversy let's create one


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Kart
May 29th, 2004, 04:57 AM
black players can only hope to win on thier athleticism and physical strength... :rolleyes:
Sweetheart have you been reading the National Enquirer again ?

You need to stop staying in and watching all those videos of Steffi's taped matches and go out ...







... and buy some Gaby matches to stay in and watch instead :banana:.

SerialKiller#69
May 29th, 2004, 05:12 AM
I've looked at the athleticism issue this way. Tanasugarn, when playing well, is very accurate and hard-hitting in her groundstrokes. But Serena can do that, and much stronger. Kournikova can chase the balls back and forth with amazing speed, but Venus can do that and with a lot stronger stamin. Weaker players have to sort out, and find more ways to beat a much stronger player.

dreamgoddess099
May 29th, 2004, 08:57 AM
Athleticism only helps to get your raquet on the ball; it takes much skill to control the shot and hit the ball in the court. If athleticism is the only thing it takes to be a good tennis player, then every sprinter, soccer player, NBA star, NFL star, ect. in the world should be able to pick up a raquet, jump on tour, and be winning matches without ever having to take one tennis lesson. Who knew? And to think, all this time I thought tennis required skill. Apparently all you have to do is use your athleticism to get your raquet on the ball and the raquet magically just hits winners for you.

Fingon
May 29th, 2004, 09:19 AM
YOU ARE A DUMBASS!

Mary Pierce, Marjiana Lucic, Jelena Dokic all hit the ball as hard or harder yet I don't see them near the top, and they have two slams between them both owned by Mary.

You basically contridicted yourself, on one hand you say you're wise...er smart enough to realize that they do more than just hit the ball hard, then in typical fashion you go and say they'd be nothing if they couldn't hit the ball hard....

Step off.
Mirjana Lucic has personal problems and isn't mentally strong, plus she is not fit.

Jelena Dokic is a mental joke, and if you think she hits as hard as Serena or Venus then you live in lala land

Mary Pierce has been at the top, although not # 1. After she won the FO she's been plagued with injuries and never was very fit anyways. Mobility is more important now than it was before.

So, can you find better examples to "prove" your point? :rolleyes:

bandabou
May 29th, 2004, 09:34 AM
So at the end: Do the Williamses only win due their athletiscism yes or no?! Because if thatīs the case whatīs happening to all the other athletes out there?!

SpikeyAidanm
May 29th, 2004, 09:37 AM
Why do the Williams always come to people's mind when they think "Black"

Garrison-Jackson, Rubin, Gibson and Goolagong (do you classify her as black) were among the most tactical/smart players of their generation.

jack duckworth
May 29th, 2004, 09:38 AM
i wonder if this thread had been posted by anyone other than a williamsfan...would it have been deleted?

lol helen lawson

bandabou
May 29th, 2004, 10:48 AM
Why do the Williams always come to people's mind when they think "Black"

Garrison-Jackson, Rubin, Gibson and Goolagong (do you classify her as black) were among the most tactical/smart players of their generation.

Yeah,yeah... but the thing is that it wasnīt until the sisters expanded their games that they became dominant...if it was all about power and athletiscism donīt you think Venus would have won a slam sooner or that Serena wouldnīt have taken so long to win her next ones?! That aspect should be seen by the commentators too imo...

flyingmachine
May 29th, 2004, 11:21 AM
Come on stop thinking of white players outsmart etc... :mad: and stop thinking of being obessive about black and white :mad: . I know racsim never stops because people always FEAR things different from their own. (I'm not a white person and I experienced racism myself! ) But being OBESSIVE about it will not slove the problem. LOOK! Every tennis player are different, they all have different style of play their strenghts and weakness which attact us all in to this forum. Most people in Americans think Williams sisters as "Blacks" first but this is NOT true outside America. Where people think their as Americans FIRST and blacks second. I know America has a big problem with the obesssion of race the people outside America has lots of problems already and the last thing we want is to put a race card above our heads. Anyway, just treat us as indivduals and don't puts us into x and y beacuse everyone is different.

gentenaire
May 29th, 2004, 02:59 PM
Since when are the Williams sisters equal to black people in general?

treiber04
May 29th, 2004, 03:07 PM
Viva Racism! :tape: :rolleyes:

Rothes
May 29th, 2004, 03:16 PM
Some of you posters need to open up the closest window in your room and stick your head out and breath in some Air.

*JR*
May 29th, 2004, 08:20 PM
A non-tennis point: the 2 most "court-smart" basketball players of the 80's, IMO (neither with great "natural ability" compared to most other Hall of Famers) were Larry Bird (white) and Magic Johnson (black). I guess they were too busy thinking of ways to win to wonder how much they "should".

Knizzle
May 29th, 2004, 08:35 PM
In by her far her best performance of the week, Venus employed an airtight attack, overpowering Pierce in chest-to-chest rallies and winning the majority of their long rallies, too. The 2002 runner-up served extremely well and didn’t allow Pierce to get a toehold in her service games with her ambitious returns.
:haha: :haha:

faste5683
May 29th, 2004, 10:25 PM
Since when are the Williams sisters equal to black people in general?

True: they tend to leave all races behind - except for the tiny country that is against the war in Iraq and makes chocolate. I forget what it's called...

:wavey:

faste5683
May 29th, 2004, 10:26 PM
A non-tennis point: the 2 most "court-smart" basketball players of the 80's, IMO (neither with great "natural ability" compared to most other Hall of Famers) were Larry Bird (white) and Magic Johnson (black). I guess they were too busy thinking of ways to win to wonder how much they "should".

Amen to that!

:wavey:

hingis-seles
May 29th, 2004, 10:36 PM
I was getting coverage today and during the Bovina-Capriati match, John Barrett and Ann Jones spoke of how players today have no variety in their games. They mentioned how Capriati has no Plan B and when in trouble tries to hit through her opponent and that except for Mauresmo, Henin-Hardenne and Federer, it was the case with most players in tennis. Oddly enough, the Williams Sisters were never mentioned.

cheesestix
May 29th, 2004, 10:39 PM
I was getting coverage today and during the Bovina-Capriati match, John Barrett and Ann Jones spoke of how players today have no variety in their games. They mentioned how Capriati has no Plan B and when in trouble tries to hit through her opponent and that except for Mauresmo, Henin-Hardenne and Federer, it was the case with most players in tennis. Oddly enough, the Williams Sisters were never mentioned.

Go figure. Maybe this thread is bullshit after all???

Or do we need to start a thread about how the media labels white players as non-thinking? :rolleyes:

Fingon
May 29th, 2004, 10:42 PM
Some of you posters need to open up the closest window in your room and stick your head out and breath in some Air.
they will need to take their head out of their asses first.

faste5683
May 29th, 2004, 11:06 PM
Go figure. Maybe this thread is bullshit after all???

Or do we need to start a thread about how the media labels white players as non-thinking? :rolleyes:


:haha:

I'd contribute.

:wavey:

bandabou
May 29th, 2004, 11:33 PM
Well Federer didnīt have much answers today against Guga anyways, soooo...

faboozadoo15
May 29th, 2004, 11:41 PM
Well Federer didnīt have much answers today against Guga anyways, soooo...
yes, he didn't think very much out there today at all. im quite disappointed in him for sure. where the hell was his slice backhand. he was topspinning it cheesily, letting it bounce high for guga to pounce...

WorldWar24
May 29th, 2004, 11:47 PM
Why is it always about whites and blacks? What about asians and indians, etc, don't they outsmart their opponents too? :angel: We have Shinobu outsmarting lots of barbies, Zheng outsmarting everyone in her path, Paola Suarez taking it to Venus, etc :dance:

Tennis is a game, why do people try to make it a war! Have fun :drool:

bandabou
May 29th, 2004, 11:59 PM
yes, he didn't think very much out there today at all. im quite disappointed in him for sure. where the hell was his slice backhand. he was topspinning it cheesily, letting it bounce high for guga to pounce...


Donīt even tell me....he was putting balls on the service-line for guga to dominate. Fool!! And he didnīt even care it seems.

Santorofan
May 30th, 2004, 12:14 AM
Da Forehand

Congratulations, you win the title for most politically correct on this board... :p

The year's 2004 ok, if anyone still thinks that way in this day and age, they certainly aren't exactly in the majority, thankfully :) and they are the ones who are deservingly unaccepted. However, as Utopia doesn't and will never exist, there will always be ignorance or prejudice in the world towards many different people for a myraid of reasons. But I just don't see how forums like this do much to help anyone :rolleyes:

Fingon
May 30th, 2004, 01:01 AM
Da Forehand

Congratulations, you win the title for most politically correct on this board... :p

The year's 2004 ok, if anyone still thinks that way in this day and age, they certainly aren't exactly in the majority, thankfully :) and they are the ones who are deservingly unaccepted. However, as Utopia doesn't and will never exist, there will always be ignorance or prejudice in the world towards many different people for a myraid of reasons. But I just don't see how forums like this do much to help anyone :rolleyes:
you are right, posting in a tennis forum about racism all the time won't help much, but it does help people with little minds to feel important.

Jericho
May 30th, 2004, 01:03 AM
OMG, i didnt want to post in this thread at first because I have never noticed how commentators only credit the sisters for their athleticism...

BUT, today's NBC coverage was FULL of the commentators attributing Venus' success to her "athleticism" "power" and "body type"...I'm not exaggerating by saying that I heard them use the term "athleticism" at least 10 times throughout the match...anyone else notice?

bandabou
May 30th, 2004, 08:24 AM
Thinking about....athletiscism isnīt such a bad thing....you row with the weapons you have. If athletiscism can help you beat smart players to the tune of 6 and 4 slams, so be it!!

~ The Leopard ~
May 30th, 2004, 10:58 AM
Over many years of watching tennis, I've observed that all the green players rely on massive musculatures induced by gamma radiation. I can't think of even one exception.

"Sluggy"
May 30th, 2004, 11:06 AM
I think a lot of people see racism where there is none. Once i had a friend over and her wanted to hide when my landlord came over. he thought it would be a problem being in a non-caucasian person in a caucasian's house and i guess he assumed my landlord was white and racist and he wanted to hide in the closet. And he was a highly educated person too. shish..

DA FOREHAND
May 30th, 2004, 05:56 PM
say what you will, this thread got a lo of people talking. thank you all for your comments, positive and negative.

Dialogue on this subj. is always good.

moby
May 30th, 2004, 06:26 PM
Chanda was dubbed with the "athletic" label in her best years on tour. She has lost some of that athleticism these days. When she wins today all you hear is her dominating with her forehand. Chanda is considered a power player. No one calls Chanda a smart player either.
that's rubbish. most people who follow tennis knows chanda as a tactical player who's not afraid to come in to net.

bandabou
May 30th, 2004, 06:28 PM
that's rubbish. most people who follow tennis knows chanda as a tactical player who's not afraid to come in to net.


And Serena and Venus?!

That explains why Chanda hasnīt won a thing yet..

moby
May 30th, 2004, 06:29 PM
at the end of the day, it is the athleticism and power of venus and serena that puts them ahead of the rest of the pack. if everyone had the same power, etc. i don't see them beating a loit, a hingis or a zvereva.

and it isn't a bad thing esp. in a physical sport like tennis. i'm sure martina wished she were as powerful as them. she would surely be unbeatable (almost then). The same goes for the other players

Knizzle
May 30th, 2004, 06:36 PM
No one is saying that athleticism is bad, but the sisters were ALWAYS athletic. They didn't always win though. Something had to have changed. Obviously it was strategy and mental toughness.

bandabou
May 30th, 2004, 06:39 PM
at the end of the day, it is the athleticism and power of venus and serena that puts them ahead of the rest of the pack. if everyone had the same power, etc. i don't see them beating a loit, a hingis or a zvereva.

and it isn't a bad thing esp. in a physical sport like tennis. i'm sure martina wished she were as powerful as them. she would surely be unbeatable (almost then). The same goes for the other players

so at the end of the day they only win because of their athletiscism.

Kim, Jennifer...all athletes, why havenīt they won as much as the sisters?! Itīs all about athletiscism right?1

moby
May 30th, 2004, 06:45 PM
for kim and jennifer: it is because of their weaknesses serve, desire and mental strength that they have not won as much
but at last check, these 2 are hardly as athletic as venus and serena
and they are hardly known for their oncourt smarts either
in fact when kim wins, its always because she gets the ball back
trust me, she doesn't only play like that

as for venus and serena having improved their tactics, strategy, etc.
you must realise that the level of their finesse has not matched up to either the best on the tour or their own power for it to be recognised

bandabou
May 30th, 2004, 06:52 PM
for kim and jennifer: it is because of their weaknesses serve, desire and mental strength that they have not won as much
but at last check, these 2 are hardly as athletic as venus and serena
and they are hardly known for their oncourt smarts either
in fact when kim wins, its always because she gets the ball back
trust me, she doesn't only play like that

as for venus and serena having improved their tactics, strategy, etc.
you must realise that the level of their finesse has not matched up to either the best on the tour or their own power for it to be recognised

Aahh...so now it is because of bigger desire and mental strength?! Hmm.....this is getting interesting....

bandabou
May 30th, 2004, 06:54 PM
for kim and jennifer: it is because of their weaknesses serve, desire and mental strength that they have not won as much
but at last check, these 2 are hardly as athletic as venus and serena
and they are hardly known for their oncourt smarts either
in fact when kim wins, its always because she gets the ball back
trust me, she doesn't only play like that

as for venus and serena having improved their tactics, strategy, etc.
you must realise that the level of their finesse has not matched up to either the best on the tour or their own power for it to be recognised

Aah, because they donīt chose to hit drop-shots, that makes them just mindless players with athletiscism...o.kaaayyyyy.

moby
May 30th, 2004, 07:15 PM
no one can play tennis mindlessly
obviously you have to know some key tactics, hit the ball to the open court, wrongfoot your opponent, etc.
and you don't really get credit for such basic stuff, or an average to above average level of oncourt strategy

you dont really expect me to say venus and serena are the best thinkers, and have the most finesse out there, because THEY DONT

Cybelle Darkholme
May 30th, 2004, 07:21 PM
for kim and jennifer: it is because of their weaknesses serve, desire and mental strength that they have not won as much
but at last check, these 2 are hardly as athletic as venus and serena
and they are hardly known for their oncourt smarts either
in fact when kim wins, its always because she gets the ball back
trust me, she doesn't only play like that

as for venus and serena having improved their tactics, strategy, etc.
you must realise that the level of their finesse has not matched up to either the best on the tour or their own power for it to be recognised

whatever.

Kim is one of the most athletic players on tour! Shes doing splits for gods sake and asliding on hard courts. Justine is also one of the most athletic players on tour. Hell did you see kirilenko? She was just as athletic as venus in that match.

Sorry but athleticism means nothing if you dont have the mental toughness. TENNIS IS 90% MENTAL. That is if you want to win. If just want to slug away with no thought then see lucic. She has power and more power and where does it get her?

Speed power and athetlicism are assests but it means nothing if you dont have a strong mind and will power.

Cybelle Darkholme
May 30th, 2004, 07:27 PM
no one can play tennis mindlessly
obviously you have to know some key tactics, hit the ball to the open court, wrongfoot your opponent, etc.
and you don't really get credit for such basic stuff, or an average to above average level of oncourt strategy

you dont really expect me to say venus and serena are the best thinkers, and have the most finesse out there, because THEY DONT
No they dont have the most finesse anyone can see that but so what? Just because you are a finesse player does that mean you are smarter? no it means that is your play style. Just because you are a power player does that mean you are smarter? No it just means that is your play style.

I cant believe all the generalizations and bs there is on this board. Do you even watch these people play?

also being mentally tough is more than strategy. Its being able to stay calm and keep your game together while the other person submits to nerves. mentally tough is having the will to fight and climb back into a set even when your down two breaks in the third.

no one can play tennis mindlessly? Well maybe you need to see some more tennis because I have seen players completely go walkabout and lose a match terribly.

you can have all the power and all the shots but if your mind wanders then it doesnt matter.

moby
May 30th, 2004, 07:33 PM
if you have read my post, you would realise that you have essentially agreed with me
it would save you time if you had read it, as opposed to disagreeing with me, then paraphrasing the exact same thing i've written
thanks

bandabou
May 30th, 2004, 07:39 PM
so mobyīs saying some athletic players think more than others?! So there IS some thinking going on out there?! Now I wanna ask moby...how does moby judge who is thinking and who isnīt?!

bandabou
May 30th, 2004, 07:41 PM
at the end of the day, it is the athleticism and power of venus and serena that puts them ahead of the rest of the pack. if everyone had the same power, etc. i don't see them beating a loit, a hingis or a zvereva.

and it isn't a bad thing esp. in a physical sport like tennis. i'm sure martina wished she were as powerful as them. she would surely be unbeatable (almost then). The same goes for the other players

Neither would Justine or Momo....you were saying?!

moby
May 30th, 2004, 07:43 PM
clearly the 2 of you are trying to argue with me because i'm not a williams fan
although bandabou, you are actually disagreeing with cybelle

you accuse me of not according the williams sisters respect for thinking on court
so i did... then cybelle says so what if they do?

i say that they win because of their mental toughness
you say "what? so they only win because of their mental toughness"
cybelle accuses me of failing to point out their great mental toughness

the 2 of you need to sort it out before trying to confuse me

bandabou
May 30th, 2004, 07:55 PM
clearly the 2 of you are trying to argue with me because i'm not a williams fan
although bandabou, you are actually disagreeing with cybelle

you accuse me of not according the williams sisters respect for thinking on court
so i did... then cybelle says so what if they do?

i say that they win because of their mental toughness
you say "what? so they only win because of their mental toughness"
cybelle accuses me of failing to point out their great mental toughness

the 2 of you need to sort it out before trying to confuse me


Iīm responding to YOUR posts....youīre the one making a statement.

Hey and the other thing. You said without their power the Williamses would beat Martina H, Loit,etc.....but you forgot that neither would do the other players who people deem as "thinking" or "smart" : Momo, Justine,etc...

Put them at the same size as Martina H without athletiscism and power and neither would beat a Hingis...does that make them dumb and only winning due to athletiscism as well?!

DA FOREHAND
May 30th, 2004, 08:01 PM
at the end of the day, it is the athleticism and power of venus and serena that puts them ahead of the rest of the pack. if everyone had the same power, etc. i don't see them beating a loit, a hingis or a zvereva.

and it isn't a bad thing esp. in a physical sport like tennis. i'm sure martina wished she were as powerful as them. she would surely be unbeatable (almost then). The same goes for the other players


That's bullshit, if the aforementioned players could blow winners by thier opponents, you wouldn't see all the soft angles, dropshots, slices, spins ...etc.

Knizzle
May 30th, 2004, 08:10 PM
Fourth seeded Venus Williams overpowered Columbian Fabiola Zuluaga to set up a quarter final clash with dangerous Russian No6 seed Anastasia Myskina on Sunday.

:haha: :haha:

bandabou
May 30th, 2004, 08:12 PM
Keep them coming knizz, keep the coming....

Fingon
May 30th, 2004, 10:31 PM
what I really don't get is that shit about thinking on court.

In my opintion, thinking on the court not only is not good, it's bad.

I've seen Justine play her best tennis when she doesn't have time to think, when it flows naturally.

I think one of the problem with Martina Hingis is that she was thinking too much, thus hurting her natural talent.

I don't see any difference between athleticsm and touch, they are both physical, NOT mental qualities.

I don't see how a player that constructs points better can be considered more intelligent than a player that hits an outright winner.

I don't see what intelligence has to do with anything.

The only way I see intelligence (or lack thereof) playing a role is in their offcourt activities, how they schedule, how they train, how they prepare for matches, how they deal with the preasure, how they identify their weaknesses and strenght and try to overcome the fists and use the latters.

do you really think a "smart" players is thinking "oh, ok, she is hitting a crosscourt forehand, she doesn't move well side to side so I should hit a backhand down the line so she will have to move", by the time she stopped analyzing the situation the point is over. Martina Hingis looked so "smart" because she had a great court sense and anticipation, which are rather physical attributes than mental.

Justine has been "smart" when she chose to improve her fitness, and work on her serve and forehand that were her weak points, not when she chooses one shot or another on the court.

esquímaux
May 30th, 2004, 10:32 PM
die thread die.

Midnite Surfer
May 30th, 2004, 10:43 PM
When you watch Serena, does the word "outthink" or "outsmart" comes into mind. :tape:

It's more like, the bull just demolished her opponent with her brute force and agressive play.
Meghan Shaughnessy is in wonderful shape physically. She doesn't have the same results as Venus and Serena. There are plenty of players who hit the ball as hard or harder but they don't have the same results.

Honestly I think the fact is on clay, Serena and Venus use angles more to their benefit than their power.

bandabou
May 30th, 2004, 10:45 PM
what I really don't get is that shit about thinking on court.

In my opintion, thinking on the court not only is not good, it's bad.

I've seen Justine play her best tennis when she doesn't have time to think, when it flows naturally.

I think one of the problem with Martina Hingis is that she was thinking too much, thus hurting her natural talent.

I don't see any difference between athleticsm and touch, they are both physical, NOT mental qualities.

I don't see how a player that constructs points better can be considered more intelligent than a player that hits an outright winner.

I don't see what intelligence has to do with anything.

The only way I see intelligence (or lack thereof) playing a role is in their offcourt activities, how they schedule, how they train, how they prepare for matches, how they deal with the preasure, how they identify their weaknesses and strenght and try to overcome the fists and use the latters.

do you really think a "smart" players is thinking "oh, ok, she is hitting a crosscourt forehand, she doesn't move well side to side so I should hit a backhand down the line so she will have to move", by the time she stopped analyzing the situation the point is over. Martina Hingis looked so "smart" because she had a great court sense and anticipation, which are rather physical attributes than mental.

Justine has been "smart" when she chose to improve her fitness, and work on her serve and forehand that were her weak points, not when she chooses one shot or another on the court.


man youīre good!

cheesestix
May 30th, 2004, 11:24 PM
what I really don't get is that shit about thinking on court.

In my opintion, thinking on the court not only is not good, it's bad.

I've seen Justine play her best tennis when she doesn't have time to think, when it flows naturally.

I think one of the problem with Martina Hingis is that she was thinking too much, thus hurting her natural talent.

I don't see any difference between athleticsm and touch, they are both physical, NOT mental qualities.

I don't see how a player that constructs points better can be considered more intelligent than a player that hits an outright winner.

I don't see what intelligence has to do with anything.

The only way I see intelligence (or lack thereof) playing a role is in their offcourt activities, how they schedule, how they train, how they prepare for matches, how they deal with the preasure, how they identify their weaknesses and strenght and try to overcome the fists and use the latters.

do you really think a "smart" players is thinking "oh, ok, she is hitting a crosscourt forehand, she doesn't move well side to side so I should hit a backhand down the line so she will have to move", by the time she stopped analyzing the situation the point is over. Martina Hingis looked so "smart" because she had a great court sense and anticipation, which are rather physical attributes than mental.

Justine has been "smart" when she chose to improve her fitness, and work on her serve and forehand that were her weak points, not when she chooses one shot or another on the court.

At that point, it becomes more "instinct" than anything. You're no longer consciously "thinking"! Trust me, I've been there, and it feels good to be in the zone, when you can anticipate your opponent's next shot!

JustineTime
May 30th, 2004, 11:39 PM
Evert used to say that even when Graf played Seles, and when she (Evert, that is) played Navratilova. Besides, what is wrong with being stronger and faster, anyway? Tennis is, after all, a sport .
You make sense and you're a Steffi fan.

I can't not like you! :hatoff:

JustineTime
May 30th, 2004, 11:46 PM
what I really don't get is that shit about thinking on court.

In my opintion, thinking on the court not only is not good, it's bad.

I've seen Justine play her best tennis when she doesn't have time to think, when it flows naturally.

I think one of the problem with Martina Hingis is that she was thinking too much, thus hurting her natural talent.

I don't see any difference between athleticsm and touch, they are both physical, NOT mental qualities.

I don't see how a player that constructs points better can be considered more intelligent than a player that hits an outright winner.

I don't see what intelligence has to do with anything.

The only way I see intelligence (or lack thereof) playing a role is in their offcourt activities, how they schedule, how they train, how they prepare for matches, how they deal with the preasure, how they identify their weaknesses and strenght and try to overcome the fists and use the latters.

do you really think a "smart" players is thinking "oh, ok, she is hitting a crosscourt forehand, she doesn't move well side to side so I should hit a backhand down the line so she will have to move", by the time she stopped analyzing the situation the point is over. Martina Hingis looked so "smart" because she had a great court sense and anticipation, which are rather physical attributes than mental.

Justine has been "smart" when she chose to improve her fitness, and work on her serve and forehand that were her weak points, not when she chooses one shot or another on the court.MAJORLY disagree, Fingon; a player absolutely has to make adjustments during a match, and Justine herself has said that while she's chewing her banana on the changeover, she mulls over the last few games...

When I play doubles, I always mention to my partner what kind of errors I see over the net and how to exploit their weaknesses.

When Justine beat Serena at RG last year, you saw her try to hit with Serena for a point or two, chew herself out, then give her little affirmative head-bob when she got back on her game. Winning is all about tactics and keeping your head together; it's what separates winners and also-rans.

:)

JustineTime
May 31st, 2004, 12:29 AM
I think that, like cheesestix said, the best players don't "think" on the court, they just follow their instinct. Sure between games, all players think, but we're more talking about what's going on during points.
Still disagree, CC: shot selection is a huge factor in determining the outcome of a match.

I can't tell you how many times I was ticked at Justine for going down the line when she should have gone cross-court, or vice versa. Sure, it's easy to armchair coach, but those little decisions and adjustments, again, ultimately determine the balance sheet between the two columns, W & L. ;)

moby
May 31st, 2004, 02:42 AM
That's bullshit, if the aforementioned players could blow winners by thier opponents, you wouldn't see all the soft angles, dropshots, slices, spins ...etc.
point out where i've said otherwise
in fact isn't that what i said? :rolleyes:

Sam L
May 31st, 2004, 02:47 AM
I think blast from the past players used to outsmart and out think their opponents. With the modern racquets you have very little time to think, it's about reaction only.

Players who played with wood like Lenglen, Wills, Connolly, GIBSON, King and Court etc.. were the ones who did so much more thinking out on the court than today's players.

bandabou
May 31st, 2004, 09:42 AM
point out where i've said otherwise
in fact isn't that what i said? :rolleyes:
But then you deem it as an inferior kind of tennis.

moby
May 31st, 2004, 09:56 AM
But then you deem it as an inferior kind of tennis.
have i? :confused:
i don't think i have

oddkayla
May 31st, 2004, 10:44 AM
The supposed muscles that Venus has are way over-rated. She is not muscular by any strectch of the imagination. Indeed it is true that Lindsay is taller and bigger than Venus, and I mean after LD had lost all that weight. So who is physically imposing? Venus or Lindsay??

Venus being muscular is way way over-rated. But like Azinna said in an earlier post, let players and coaches focus on solving the athletism puzzle and the Williams will sting them with their all court game!

bandabou
May 31st, 2004, 10:54 AM
have i? :confused:
i don't think i have

I think you do...if you say that Serena and Venus only win because of their athletiscism, that is a snide obversation imo.

spudrsca
May 31st, 2004, 01:45 PM
Perhaps Chris Can explain Venus' famous comeback win vs. Justine @ AI '02, where she came back from a set and 2 breaks down by doing the exact opposite: playing backboard tennis as her power game Wasn't Working that day. :rolleyes:
Come on, she didn't outsmart Justine, Justine just chokes.

bandabou
May 31st, 2004, 01:47 PM
Come on, she didn't outsmart Justine, Justine just chokes.


Of course..... :rolleyes:

spudrsca
May 31st, 2004, 01:56 PM
But I don't see Justine as outsmarting her opponents as well, in fact she often make wrong choices or is too stubborn to the gameplan of Carlos and doesn't improvize very much.
That's what I don't like that much with Carlos, he has changed too much the game of Justine and has not let too much place for Justine and improvizing.

oddkayla
May 31st, 2004, 02:03 PM
What was funny in Venus and Pierce's last match was Mary hitting drop shots and the commentators saying that was a smart move. Well she must have won only two points off of that shot because Venus has said it herself many years ago when she was an upstart, that it is not smart tennis to hit drop shots at her because she will get to them. And she got to them with time to spare and won the points.

People will just never give respect where its due. Its like watching golf and commentators saying how Tiger is athletically gifted and how an amazing athelete he is. How often do you hear people drone on about his shot selection, his smarts and his ability to put his opponents under pressure?

bandabou
May 31st, 2004, 02:36 PM
What was funny in Venus and Pierce's last match was Mary hitting drop shots and the commentators saying that was a smart move. Well she must have won only two points off of that shot because Venus has said it herself many years ago when she was an upstart, that it is not smart tennis to hit drop shots at her because she will get to them. And she got to them with time to spare and won the points.

People will just never give respect where its due. Its like watching golf and commentators saying how Tiger is athletically gifted and how an amazing athelete he is. How often do you hear people drone on about his shot selection, his smarts and his ability to put his opponents under pressure?

tjaaa......

DA FOREHAND
May 31st, 2004, 08:23 PM
The supposed muscles that Venus has are way over-rated. She is not muscular by any strectch of the imagination. Indeed it is true that Lindsay is taller and bigger than Venus, and I mean after LD had lost all that weight. So who is physically imposing? Venus or Lindsay??

Venus being muscular is way way over-rated. But like Azinna said in an earlier post, let players and coaches focus on solving the athletism puzzle and the Williams will sting them with their all court game!


I totally agree, Venus is not muscuar. Capriati has bigger muscles.

DA FOREHAND
Jun 2nd, 2004, 04:23 PM
See how Myskina outwitted the Hulking muscular Venus

bandabou
Jun 2nd, 2004, 04:25 PM
Yeah, yeah, yeah....itīs just funny how people take so much joy in seeing the Williamses fail. What about Momo?!

*JR*
Jun 3rd, 2004, 01:22 AM
Come on stop thinking of white players outsmart etc... :mad: and stop thinking of being obessive about black and white :mad: . I know racsim never stops because people always FEAR things different from their own. (I'm not a white person and I experienced racism myself! ) But being OBESSIVE about it will not slove the problem. LOOK! Every tennis player are different, they all have different style of play their strenghts and weakness which attact us all in to this forum. Most people in Americans think Williams sisters as "Blacks" first but this is NOT true outside America. Where people think their as Americans FIRST and blacks second. I know America has a big problem with the obesssion of race the people outside America has lots of problems already and the last thing we want is to put a race card above our heads. Anyway, just treat us as indivduals and don't puts us into x and y beacuse everyone is different.

:worship: :worship: :worship:

Knizzle
Jun 3rd, 2004, 01:24 AM
What is everyone saying about Myskina?? They are saying she outsmarted Venus. When Vee beat Pierce it was all about Pierce's errors. When she won the tiebreak against Zuluaga people said Zuluaga "gave" it to her.

SharapovaKixA$$
Jun 3rd, 2004, 01:28 AM
black people are always with the racist bullshit. annoying.

Ballbuster
Jun 3rd, 2004, 01:43 AM
black people are always with the racist bullshit. annoying.

Aren't they just simply dreadful. Too bad they got history to prove it.

Fingon
Jun 3rd, 2004, 02:31 AM
What is everyone saying about Myskina?? They are saying she outsmarted Venus. When Vee beat Pierce it was all about Pierce's errors. When she won the tiebreak against Zuluaga people said Zuluaga "gave" it to her.
does it really matter what people say? you know Venus, you have your opinion on her game and why she wins or loses, does what people think change anything?

how many things have been said about Justine? and asterisk, she only won because the sisters weren't there, blah blah, I know what she is capable of and what a journalist or poster says won't change a bit what I think. I don't let that bother me and I think you shouldn't.

Venus might be going through a bad patch but she's giver her fans a lot of satisfactions and that's all that counts. Who cares if they say she oustmarts her opponents or she overpowers them as long as she wins.