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DelMonte
May 28th, 2004, 07:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by justine&coria
I'm gonna say once again what I said in post #100 and # 104.

Main reason for some stupid people in the crowd for booing Serena = Serena's arrogant attitude last year : remember the horrible face she had against Mauresmo when she beat her last year !

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Originally Posted by visions23
Booing has nothing to do with the fact Serena is a threat. Serena was booed because she is arrogant, and not nice. Mary PIERCE was booed too, at the beginning of his carreer, even if she is french.

Of course, maybe some people boo her because she is too strong, but MOST OF the booing is because of her attitude.

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Please justine&coria and visions23, this is not a criticism of your post but if you guys are right, then WE SHOULD ALL BE WORRIED BECAUSE THAT'S SEXIST.I mean this is a friggin' sport and athletes are there to compete but people don't like 'arrongant' or 'horrible' face on a female tennis player because this violates the rules of good manners?? This is one of the most offensive things I have heard!!

As fans of women's tennis we should all be worried by the implication that female tennis players should be 'nice' and not make 'arrongant' and 'horrible' faces during competition when your heart-beat is running at a thousand miles an hours, your adreneline is way up, when passion, a fighting spirit, pure guts and determination determine the outcome of the match as much as skill and talent!! You might as well tell women to only use 50% of their capacity because the other 50% is exactly that: aggression, passion, determination, fight and, yes, for MANY athletes this manifests itself physically in fists being pumped, veins bulging, screams of ALLEZ, C'MON, VAMOS, KOMM JETZT etc and, yes, a 'horrible' and 'arrongant' face while this all happens.

Is this not why we all watch sports and tennis in particular??? Is this not why people were posting pics in that thread 'a pic of your favourite player being aggressive'??

C'mon people, if what justine&coria says is true, this issue is bigger than Serena and goes to the heart of what we all expect of female athletes in general and what we seem to expect right now is not an athlete who competes with passion and determination but an athelete who is 'nice'. And I am not even talking about 'nice' in a way that relates to good sportsmanship and following the rules of the game but apparently 'nice' in a way that means no offending your opponent by having an impolite expression on your face! Do people even realise how offensive this is to Amelie Mauresmo?? I mean the implication was that she was intimidated by Serena and lost the match because Serena wasn't 'nice' enough to her!! Yes, next time play nicely with each other girls, ok?? What the hell is a tennis court, a friggin' play ground???

Am I alone in believing this??? I am really really angry right now but I truly believe that there is something to be angry about!! I hope my post makes sense.

DelMonte

Sam L
May 28th, 2004, 07:09 AM
Well I find Lleyton Hewitt annoying for the same reasons.

Actually I like Serena and Venus even more. But it's annoying how their fans (on this board particularly) takes every little thing so seriously.

SJW
May 28th, 2004, 07:11 AM
But it's annoying how their fans (on this board particularly) takes every little thing so seriously.
agreed.

DelMonte
May 28th, 2004, 07:17 AM
Well I find Lleyton Hewitt annoying for the same reasons.

Actually I like Serena and Venus even more. But it's annoying how their fans (on this board particularly) takes every little thing so seriously.

Is this a general statement/criticism or one that specifically relates to my post? I do think that sexism is a serious issue in sports (I find it frustrating when male and female athletes are held to different standards) and I find it worrying that some people on this board are buying into the idea that female tennis players have to be 'nice' and if they are not, they are likely to offend their opponent, crowds etc.

I happen to think this is an important issue to debate. :wavey:

sartrista7
May 28th, 2004, 07:23 AM
C'mon people, if what justine&coria says is true, this issue is bigger than Serena and goes to the heart of what we all expect of female athletes in general and what we seem to expect right now is not an athlete who competes with passion and determination but an athelete who is 'nice'. And I am not even talking about 'nice' in a way that relates to good sportsmanship and following the rules of the game but apparently 'nice' in a way that means no offending your opponent by having an impolite expression on your face! Do people even realise how offensive this is to Amelie Mauresmo?? I mean the implication was that she was intimidated by Serena and lost the match because Serena wasn't 'nice' enough to her!! Yes, next time play nicely with each other girls, ok?? What the hell is a tennis court, a friggin' play ground???

Am I alone in believing this??? I am really really angry right now but I truly believe that there is something to be angry about!! I hope my post makes sense.

DelMonte

I think sexism is probably at the root of a LOT of the criticisms of the top players (though I'm kind of surprised you never popped up with this rant when people dissed Justine's perceived 'ugliness', which is far more unpleasant and misogynist :tape: ). However... I'm not convinced that was the case today. Serena's exactly like Lleyton Hewitt in that the way they pump themselves up after points is extremely irritating. I mean.. yeah, you want to win, you're passionate and determined, but to pump your fist after a fluky net cord or your opponent's double fault is extremely classless. True champions know when it's appropriate to show their aggression... and when it's more important to be courteous. Serena doesn't. She really hams it up as well... there's absolutely no subtlety in her behaviour whatsoever (this is why I'm not convinced she'd be a good actor). The way she pumps her fist and bends double... actually, that's not so much annoying as hilarious.

She can also get very petulant in her demeanour... she acts like she's offended that her opponent should play that well against her. Wake up Serena, you're not the only player out there with talent.

Of course, I don't think she should stop doing any of this... it works for her, and I can see why some people like it. However... if you admire that in Serena, but can't stand it in Lleyton... or vice versa... that's slightly hypocritical.

DelMonte
May 28th, 2004, 07:27 AM
I think sexism is probably at the root of a LOT of the criticisms of the top players (though I'm kind of surprised you never popped up with this rant when people dissed Justine's perceived 'ugliness', which is far more unpleasant and misogynist :tape: )

You must have missed my thread about the common criticisms that Justine and the Williams sisters are subjected to. I listed many things and one of them was the horrible stereotypes about their physical appearance. I am happy to dig it up for you if you want!

DelMonte

dreamgoddess099
May 28th, 2004, 07:28 AM
Great post DelMonte, I tried to rep you but they wouldn't let me.
But you know some of the posters on this board are quite young and come from countries where women are seen as weak, property of their husbands (or fathers and sometimes sons), and are treated like dogs. Seeing aggressive strong women who don't go around trying to please everybody is more than there little minds can bare. They are just threatened by strong aggressive women. I can't really blame them since the earth's society teaches women to accept the passive and submissive gender roles that even more women than men not only conform to, but pass onto their sons and daughters.

salima
May 28th, 2004, 07:30 AM
it is an important subject to discuss, but when names are taken into the discussion we, or most of us , start discussing players instead of the subject, sexism.
Are male and female players treated equally by the crowd, media and fans?
No
:(

justine&coria
May 28th, 2004, 07:31 AM
Well, i'm gonna say some things:
- only some (stupid) people in the crowd booed Serena for no apparent reason on tuesday (when she entered the court) ! It was just a minority and she wasn't booed anymore. She wasn't booed yesterday when she entered the court ! Maybe those 10 people who booed were sexist. how can I know ?
- when a man does a "bad" thing, he's booed ! (we all know what "bad" means for the crowd)
- when a woman does a "bad" thing, she's booed !

In this forum, there are (too) many people who don't like Serena because she's arrogant : i don't know why you're talking about sexism only now !

There's a great difference between being nice and being arrogant + having a scary face ! There are many other behaviours between : last year there was a kind of rage/angriness in Serena's look that we're not used to see in tennis ! Many people were a bit shocked. (and of course her impressive way of playing :hearts: increased this feeling).

DelMonte
May 28th, 2004, 07:35 AM
Well, i'm gonna say some things:
- only some (stupid) people in the crowd booed Serena for no apparent reason on tuesday (when she entered the court) ! It was just a minority and she wasn't booed anymore. She wasn't booed yesterday when she entered the court ! Maybe those 10 people who booed were sexist. how can I know ?
- when a man does a "bad" thing, he's booed ! (we all know what "bad" means for the crowd)
- when a woman does a "bad" thing, she's booed !

In this forum, there are (too) many people who don't like Serena because she's arrogant : i don't know why you're talking about sexism only now !
There's a great difference between being nice and being arrogant + having a scary face ! There are many other behaviours between : last year there was a kind of rage/angriness in Serena's look that we're not used to see in tennis ! Many people were a bit shocked. (and of course her impressive way of playing :hearts: increased this feeling).


Justine&coria, I think you are may be missing my point. My point is not so much that women can't be arrogant or do 'bad' things etc, my point is that what constitutes 'bad' or 'arrogant' seems to differ depending on whether the person is a male or female athlete. Also, our expectations of how male and female athletes should behave seem to differ.

dreamgoddess099
May 28th, 2004, 07:36 AM
I think sexism is probably at the root of a LOT of the criticisms of the top players (though I'm kind of surprised you never popped up with this rant when people dissed Justine's perceived 'ugliness', which is far more unpleasant and misogynist :tape: )That has more to do with people's dislike of her gamemanship rather than her actual looks. Truth be told, she doesn't have the worst looking face in the world and actually looked quite nice all dolled up in her wedding dress (I can't believe I just gave her a compliment.)

DelMonte
May 28th, 2004, 07:39 AM
er, how to i search for old threads that i posted?

visions23
May 28th, 2004, 07:47 AM
I don't care about players look. I care about their behavior. And i dislike Serena behavior. But that's what i feel, i'm not saying i am right, and i respect your opinion

And i don't dislike her because i'm french or because she is a threat to Amelie. I don't like Mauresmo either.
Yesterday, i watched Grosjean - Starace, and i was happy Starace won. I like Sébastien a lot, but Potito played very well and deserved his win. And i liked his attitude.

DelMonte
May 28th, 2004, 07:57 AM
I don't care about players look. I care about their behavior. And i dislike Serena behavior. But that's what i feel, i'm not saying i am right, and i respect your opinion

And i don't dislike her because i'm french or because she is a threat to Amelie. I don't like Mauresmo either.
Yesterday, i watched Grosjean - Starace, and i was happy Starace won. I like Sébastien a lot, but Potito played very well and deserved his win. And i liked his attitude.

Visions23, I get your point as well (althogh shame on you for not cheering for th elovely Sebastien yesterday ;)) but don't you find it interesting that so many people are highlighting Serena's aggressive facial mannerism and her lack of niceness in explaining (not necessarily justifying-- i get that too!) the crowd's reaction towards her? I do think that's significant.

visions23
May 28th, 2004, 08:08 AM
Visions23, I get your point as well (althogh shame on you for not cheering for th elovely Sebastien yesterday ;)) but don't you find it interesting that so many people are highlighting Serena's aggressive facial mannerism and her lack of niceness in explaining (not necessarily justifying-- i get that too!) the crowd's reaction towards her? I do think that's significant.

I don't know, i didn't read all posts. Her aggressive facial mannerism is linked to the fact some people dislike her attitude, and maybe more people would like her if she was beautiful. But the main problem is her behavior, and previous points are -in my opinion- just increasing the dislike.

DelMonte
May 28th, 2004, 08:30 AM
I don't know, i didn't read all posts. Her aggressive facial mannerism is linked to the fact some people dislike her attitude, and maybe more people would like her if she was beautiful. But the main problem is her behavior, and previous points are -in my opinion- just increasing the dislike.

And maybe more people who criticise Justine's looks would like her more if she had bigger boobs but I don't watch tennis to see Pamela Anderson-type plastic barby dolls prancing and preening themselves on the tennis court. :rolleyes:

Anyway, just to clarify point again: I think that when men and women engage in seemingly similar or even identical behaviour, it seems to me that we interpret that behaviour differently and the consequences are different as well.

[Permit me to use an example outside the tennis world merely to illustrate my point, nothing more. Case: the torture photographs showing American soldiers, male and female, torturing or watching the torture of Iraqui detainees. I think most people condemned the acts depicted and the individuals committing them but if you listened closely you'd have heard people being particularly offended by the actions of the female soldiers. I heard a number of people say (to me personally), "How could a woman do such a thing??", the implication being that when women act as 'bad', as 'violent' as men, people are EVEN MORE outraged because it violates the idea that women are by nature more caring, nurturing,nice etc. Same act but different reaction. That was my point.]

dreamgoddess099
May 28th, 2004, 08:31 AM
In this forum, there are (too) many people who don't like Serena because she's arrogant : i don't know why you're talking about sexism only now !
Find one player on tour that has never said that they didn't play the best they could ( or something to that effect) after just losing a match. This is the lame ass reason people to justify their claims that Serena is arrogant. Again, arrogant people boast about how many slams they have won; not say "compared to other great champions;I haven't done anything thing yet." Arrogant people never let on that they have any flaws; not say " there is so much more that I could do better in my game." Arrogant people are totally satisfied; not say "I'm never satisfied and I'm aways striving to do better."

There's a great difference between being nice and being arrogant + having a scary face ! There are many other behaviours between : last year there was a kind of rage/angriness in Serena's look that we're not used to see in tennis ! Many people were a bit shocked.
But why were they so shocked? Serena had the perfect game face on and won 6-1, 6-2. If she were a male player out there playing with that kind of ferociousness she would have been applauded for the fierce competitor she is.

~ The Leopard ~
May 28th, 2004, 09:05 AM
Lots of people dislike Hewitt for exactly the same reason. However, it is indeed sexist when men are able to get away with behaviour that would be considered unacceptable in women. Moreover, it is racist when people of a particular race can get away with behaviour that would be considered unacceptable in people of another race. There may be an element of these things in the way some people don't like Serena. Whether it is actually a large element is another thing.

Personally, I think we should cut them all (Serena, Hewitt, whoever...) a bit of slack, while also thinking that some of them go overboard at times and don't seem like very likeable people. Also, when you realise how much anti-American feeling there is in France at the moment, it's not surprising when the crowd overreacts if it's an American player who goes a li'l overboard. I'm surprised that anyone is surprised at this.

~ The Leopard ~
May 28th, 2004, 09:11 AM
The other thing is that this sexism may be a bad thing but it is understandable. For hundreds of thousands of years, men have been expected to be warriors etc. It is part of the social idea of what it is to be a fine young man :rolleyes: , blah, blah. It's all bullshit in my opinion, but that's how people think...so male jocks can sometimes get away with stuff that it is pretty dislikeable or immature. Women don't have that historical advantage. Women should be able to get away with a bit more but male jocks are often pains in the arse and should probably be allowed to get away with less.

SJW
May 28th, 2004, 11:39 AM
i like Serena, Lleyton, Kim, Jennifer...love it when players get pumped up :)

controlfreak
May 28th, 2004, 11:58 AM
Watching a 'nice' player win or lose gracefully is a different experience to watching a pumped up player finish a match. The satisfaction of the win may be less intense, but it has more long term value. Also the pain of defeat is much easier to stomach if the player has remained dignified.

Stamp Paid
May 28th, 2004, 12:14 PM
Great post DelMonte, I tried to rep you but they wouldn't let me.
But you know some of the posters on this board are quite young and come from countries where women are seen as weak, property of their husbands (or fathers and sometimes sons), and are treated like dogs. Seeing aggressive strong women who don't go around trying to please everybody is more than there little minds can bare. They are just threatened by strong aggressive women. I can't really blame them since the earth's society teaches women to accept the passive and submissive gender roles that even more women than men not only conform to, but pass onto their sons and daughters.
EXACTLY! Europe's level of misogyny and chauvinism is second only to the Middle East!! American women would not take 1/2 of what European women seem to acquiesce to.

GoDominique
May 28th, 2004, 12:21 PM
Regarding Serena's face against Amelie last year:

Tactically that was absolutely brilliant, as it intimidated Amelie even more, and the match was basically over before it even began.

But you can't expect that people will love you for that.
And, Serena couldn't keep that up against Justine.

Stamp Paid
May 28th, 2004, 12:28 PM
Regarding Serena's face against Amelie last year:

Tactically that was absolutely brilliant, as it intimidated Amelie even more, and the match was basically over before it even began.

But you can't expect that people will love you for that.
And, Serena couldn't keep that up against Justine.
But that wasnt the purpose of Serena's grimace. She was angry because Venus had been upset, and that face pumped her up even more, and allowed her to play better. Why would Amelie be intimidated by Serena with a pissed off face? What, is Serena gonna jump over the net and eat her alive? Is Serena going to strike her physically?

I'm sure that if Jennifer or Lindsay played her with a grimace, Amelie wouldn't be intimidated. Is it that Serena is playing on racial stereotypes? If Amelie was intimidated, it was Amelie's fault. Maybe its because I'm black, but I would just laugh at Serena if I was playing her and she was giving me looks. I'm not that easily intimidated, because I know shes not going to strike me physically, so why should I be?:scratch::scratch:

GoDominique
May 28th, 2004, 12:42 PM
But that wasnt the purpose of Serena's grimace. She was angry because Venus had been upset, and that face pumped her up even more, and allowed her to play better. Why would Amelie be intimidated by Serena with a pissed off face? What, is Serena gonna jump over the net and eat her alive? Is Serena going to strike her physically?

I'm sure that if Jennifer or Lindsay played her with a grimace, Amelie wouldn't be intimidated. Is it that Serena is playing on racial stereotypes? If Amelie was intimidated, it was Amelie's fault. Maybe its because I'm black, but I would just laugh at Serena if I was playing her and she was giving me looks. I'm not that easily intimidated, because I know shes not going to strike me physically, so why should I be?:scratch::scratch:
I guess you don't play tennis yourself, because then you would know that your opponent's attitude can indeed influence you and your game.

Serena is not dumb. She knows that Amelie can be mentally fragile. With the face and the fist-pumps she made Amelie crack even faster.

Stamp Paid
May 28th, 2004, 12:53 PM
I guess you don't play tennis yourself, because then you would know that your opponent's attitude can indeed influence you and your game.

Serena is not dumb. She knows that Amelie can be mentally fragile. With the face and the fist-pumps she made Amelie crack even faster.
OK, if thats the reason why, then I wish Serena had done that at the Rome SF three weeks earlier!

No, I dont play tennis, but if I did, my opponent giving me looks would piss me off, not intimidate me. Amelie's mental fragility is her problem. It is not Serena's fault that she inadvertently triggered primal fear in Amelie. She was exploiting a weakness. Just like if Amelie kept coming to net to exploit Serena's net ablilities (or lack thereof). Would Amelie be wrong for exploiting her opponent's weakness? Hell no! So why is Serena wrong in this case? je ne comprend pas!

GoDominique
May 28th, 2004, 12:56 PM
Uh, were did I say she was wrong? :scratch:

Stamp Paid
May 28th, 2004, 12:59 PM
Uh, were did I say she was wrong? :scratch:
OK, so if she wasn't wrong, why would that be a reason to dislike her? Exploiting an opponent's weakness is reason to dislike the player? If that's the case, Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Petersmiler
May 28th, 2004, 01:00 PM
EXACTLY! Europe's level of misogyny and chauvinism is second only to the Middle East!! American women would not take 1/2 of what European women seem to acquiesce to.
I'm sorry, but do you even know where Europe is?

I don't see many women round here 'taking' anything!

Stamp Paid
May 28th, 2004, 01:06 PM
I'm sorry, but do you even know where Europe is?

I don't see many women round here 'taking' anything!
Yeah, I don't know where Europe is. I have NO IDEA.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

That's because you live in the society, so of course you wouldn't notice it. Why do Wimbledon and Roland Garros pay less to women champions?? Hmm.

Besides, by this point, European women know better than to make a fuss, so of course you wouldn't see anything, silly!:)

Petersmiler
May 28th, 2004, 01:08 PM
Er, well that's strange as I work for the Employment Tribunals Service in the UK, and I see women every day bringing claims of sex discrimination against their employers. So I do see it, silly!

Stamp Paid
May 28th, 2004, 01:15 PM
Er, well that's strange as I work for the Employment Tribunals Service in the UK, and I see women every day bringing claims of sex discrimination against their employers. So I do see it, silly!
Sexual discrimination is slightly different than equal rights, protections, and entitlements. I just know that if the US Open decided this year to give the female winner less prize money than the male prize winner, American women would not allow it. There would be so many boycotts and bad press, the US Open would be forced to.

I just ask, why isn't there criticism from British and French women about Wimbledon and Roland garros paying less prizemoney to female champions?:scratch:

SJW
May 28th, 2004, 01:17 PM
Sexual discrimination is slightly different than equal rights, protections, and entitlements. I just know that if the US Open decided this year to give the female winner less prize money than the male prize winner, American women would not allow it. There would be so many boycotts and bad press, the US Open would be forced to.

I just ask, why isn't there criticism from British and French women about Wimbledon and Roland garros paying less prizemoney to female champions?:scratch:
....actually, the British don't really like cocky ANYBODY :)...Serena isn't cocky...that would suggest she's not as good as she thinks she is.....

Petersmiler
May 28th, 2004, 01:21 PM
Sexual discrimination is slightly different than equal rights, protections, and entitlements. I just know that if the US Open decided this year to give the female winner less prize money than the male prize winner, American women would not allow it. There would be so many boycotts and bad press, the US Open would be forced to.

I just ask, why isn't there criticism from British and French women about Wimbledon and Roland garros paying less prizemoney to female champions?:scratch:
But the american women enter it too, So what is your point? If women are so much stronger at upholding their rights in the US, then surely they would continue their campaign overseas?

Perhaps you should write to all the American women who are planning to enter Wimbledon and persuade them to withdraw?

griffin
May 28th, 2004, 01:27 PM
but I would just laugh at Serena if I was playing her and she was giving me looks. I'm not that easily intimidated, because I know shes not going to strike me physically, so why should I be?:scratch::scratch:

Don't be ridiculous. In case ya hadn't noticed you're not Amelie Mauresmo. No one if France gives a hoot what you do on a tennis court or anywhere else, or how far you go in a tennis tournament. You don't have a reputation on the tour as being mentally fragile and you've never had the crowd at RG turn on you and boo you off the court because you were losing a match.

Amelie Mauresmo (or anyone else) afraid Serena would strike her physically? Please, I imagine most players would have an easier time dealing with a physical fight than a mental one. (and fyi I have no problem with Serena's "Don't Fuck With Me" face)

Back on topic - I don't know how anyone can think that women AREN'T held to a different standard than the men in terms of what we consider acceptable or at least ignorable. All you need to do is look at how quickly people start slagging any strong female player as "manly" - when they're that polite about it - or belittling them for "arrogance" or their appearance to know that. Even when the dislike of a player is more generic, the language used to criticize them is often quite sexist if not misogynist.

Experimentee
May 28th, 2004, 01:44 PM
I guess you don't play tennis yourself, because then you would know that your opponent's attitude can indeed influence you and your game.

Serena is not dumb. She knows that Amelie can be mentally fragile. With the face and the fist-pumps she made Amelie crack even faster.

Theres nothing bad about taking advantage of a player's known weakness. If Amelie is mentally weak, thats her own fault, and she should expect players to take advantage. Its just like if she had a weak backhand, players would exploit it and keep hitting to her backhand. You cant ask a player not to hit to someones backhand if its a known weakness. Same thing with mentality. If its there she should expolit it and its up to Amelie to fix her own problem.

GoDominique
May 28th, 2004, 01:49 PM
Theres nothing bad about taking advantage of a player's known weakness. If Amelie is mentally weak, thats her own fault, and she should expect players to take advantage. Its just like if she had a weak backhand, players would exploit it and keep hitting to her backhand. You cant ask a player not to hit to someones backhand if its a known weakness. Same thing with mentality. If its there she should expolit it and its up to Amelie to fix her own problem.
I agree? :confused:

Experimentee
May 28th, 2004, 01:53 PM
To answer the thread, i think its pretty obvious females are held to a different standard than males. Many people expect females to play 'ladylike', passively and politely and a lot of people dont like them acting aggressive, or hitting hard and playing an aggressive game. Theres a lot of men who get away with aggressive behaviour, I'm not just talking about Lleyton, he is hated for reasons other than his on court behaviour. I personally dislike Lleyton but its nothing to do with his 'come ons', but for other reasons.
Anyway female players are called manly or untalented just because they hit hard or have an aggressive game, but when male players play like that they are considered amazingly talented, for example Marat.
Its also apparent that female players are criticised more for their appearance, and fashion etc, but people dont really care about that iwth male players.
With all these comments I'm talking generally, of course there will be isolated cases where male players are disliked because of these things, but in general females are more closely scrutinised. I'm speaking from following both mens and womens tennis for many years and regularly posting on both boards, and its quite apparent to me there is a double standard.

Stamp Paid
May 28th, 2004, 02:14 PM
Don't be ridiculous. In case ya hadn't noticed you're not Amelie Mauresmo. No one if France gives a hoot what you do on a tennis court or anywhere else, or how far you go in a tennis tournament. You don't have a reputation on the tour as being mentally fragile and you've never had the crowd at RG turn on you and boo you off the court because you were losing a match.
OK, but what does this "pressure" (self-added, might I add) from the French crowd have to do with intimidation from Serena?:confused:

Experimentee
May 28th, 2004, 02:34 PM
I agree? :confused:

You arent sure that you agree? It wasnt just directed at you, I've seen a lot of people who seem to think theres something wrong with what Serena did.

griffin
May 28th, 2004, 02:43 PM
OK, but what does this "pressure" (self-added, might I add) from the French crowd have to do with intimidation from Serena?:confused:

Just that if it hadn’t been for all the pressure on her (much of it self-imposed), Serena could have had a Mardi-gras mask on her face and it wouldn’t have mattered to Amelie. I think that face told Amelie she’d be in for a hell of a fight. I personally think Serena’s “intimidation factor” in and of itself was a minor factor in Amelie crumbling like that (and by crumbling, I don’t mean losing, I mean losing that badly)

Which again, has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

sartrista7
May 28th, 2004, 03:15 PM
You arent sure that you agree? It wasnt just directed at you, I've seen a lot of people who seem to think theres something wrong with what Serena did.

I think most people are in agreement that there was nothing wrong with Serena's glares etc, but that they didn't exactly endear her to the French public.

This is the thing... there's no question that Serena should keep on behaving exactly as she does on court. It's the perfect tactic, and it works. However, it's understandable that she doesn't win people over with it; I find the way she completely ignores common courtesies on court a turn-off. Which is fine, she's not on court to make friends.

Stamp Paid
May 28th, 2004, 03:21 PM
I think most people are in agreement that there was nothing wrong with Serena's glares etc, but that they didn't exactly endear her to the French public.

This is the thing... there's no question that Serena should keep on behaving exactly as she does on court. It's the perfect tactic, and it works. However, it's understandable that she doesn't win people over with it; I find the way she completely ignores common courtesies on court a turn-off. Which is fine, she's not on court to make friends.
But thats what I dont understand! Jennifer, Amelie, Lindsay, Elena, Vera, Nadia, all of these players ignore those same common courtesies. Why when Serena does it, its a complete turn-off and indicative of her arrogance?!

sartrista7
May 28th, 2004, 03:24 PM
But thats what I dont understand! Jennifer, Amelie, Lindsay, Elena, Vera, Nadia, all of these players ignore those same common courtesies. Why when Serena does it, its a complete turn-off and indicative of her arrogance?!

JenFat does sometimes. But the only other players who go as OTT with the fist-pumps etc are Hewitt and Roddick, who just happen to my my least favourite men. I've never seen any of the players you mention pump their fist and shout 'YES!' after winning a point off a fluky net cord!

Lindsay and Vera are probably two of the most sporting players around, anyway - why mention them? :confused:

Stamp Paid
May 28th, 2004, 03:36 PM
I just SAW Maleeva do it when Shaughnessy just hit a lob long! She screamed at the top of her lungs when Shaughnessy did that to give Maleeva match point!!!!!!!! All players do it, thats a piss poor excuse.

veera
May 28th, 2004, 03:48 PM
Sexual discrimination is slightly different than equal rights, protections, and entitlements. I just know that if the US Open decided this year to give the female winner less prize money than the male prize winner, American women would not allow it. There would be so many boycotts and bad press, the US Open would be forced to.

I just ask, why isn't there criticism from British and French women about Wimbledon and Roland garros paying less prizemoney to female champions?:scratch:


I think it's very reasonable, that men get more money than women. They play more.
And thank you very much for your comment that American women are somehow more independent and that European women don't care how men treat them. It just made me laugh :)
Have you ever been to Europe, dear American? If you have, you should know that there are about 50 different countries with very different cultures.