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View Full Version : Anyone who watched the match b/w Justine and Tathiana...


DelMonte
May 26th, 2004, 09:55 PM
...could you please tell me how the crowd behaved? I mean were they behind Justine and encouraging her to fight or were they cheering on the underdog Tathiana? Or perhaps they were strangel subdued, sorta in shock?

Thanks.

Lady
May 26th, 2004, 10:00 PM
In the 1st set they were cheering for Tathiana more, in the 2nd for Justine! ;)
That's how I saw the situation

Sportfan
May 26th, 2004, 10:01 PM
I thought they were behind Justine but they weren't mean to Garbin either when she made a good shot they were appreciative imo.

DelMonte
May 26th, 2004, 10:02 PM
ok, thanks.

tennisIlove09
May 26th, 2004, 10:17 PM
After Tatiana went up 7-5 2-0, they got behind JHH. But it was pretty even through out the match

DeDe4925
May 26th, 2004, 10:19 PM
...could you please tell me how the crowd behaved? I mean were they behind Justine and encouraging her to fight or were they cheering on the underdog Tathiana? Or perhaps they were strangel subdued, sorta in shock?

Thanks.
THEY WERE DEFINITELY BEHIND JUSTINE THE WHOLE TIME...WHATEVER HAPPENED TO THE UNDERDOG THEORY????!!!!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

DeDe4925
May 26th, 2004, 10:23 PM
I'm pissed off about it too, because even when Vee and Rena are down in a match against an "underdog" the crowd is staunchly behind the "underdog". Here we have the NO. 1 player in the world, down in the first set and again at the end of the second set and the crowd is uproariously behind the favorite. If some of you are going to always come forward with the argument that the crowd cheers for the underdog, what happened in this case? Why, even if it were true on how some of you saw it, one time behind the underdog and one time behind Justine, wasn't the crowd totally behind the underdog the whole time, like they are with Venus and Serena? Hmmmmmmmm

darrinbaker00
May 26th, 2004, 10:24 PM
THEY WERE DEFINITELY BEHIND JUSTINE THE WHOLE TIME...WHATEVER HAPPENED TO THE UNDERDOG THEORY????!!!!!!!!!! :rolleyes:
****DEVIL'S ADVOCATE ALERT****
One could argue, De, that Justine WAS the underdog, especially after the first set. ;)

Lady
May 26th, 2004, 10:26 PM
French crowd likes Justine :shrug:

anton
May 26th, 2004, 10:27 PM
French crowd likes Justine :shrug:
Justine speaks French...

faboozadoo15
May 26th, 2004, 10:27 PM
ummm okay, then people just don't like serena and venus. if someone said that would it make you happy? people (v and s fans almost always) start threads about how popular they are all over the world and such, and then they make more threads about how crowds are rude by cheering for who they are playing. maybe poeople like to see venus and serena play, but they like to see the other person win... is there anything wrong with that?

bandabou
May 26th, 2004, 10:32 PM
So people like to see Venus and Serena play, but not for them to win...and then comes the question: why´s that?! why them specific?!

Nothing wrong with it, just a question...

DA FOREHAND
May 26th, 2004, 10:34 PM
I'm pissed off about it too, because even when Vee and Rena are down in a match against an "underdog" the crowd is staunchly behind the "underdog". Here we have the NO. 1 player in the world, down in the first set and again at the end of the second set and the crowd is uproariously behind the favorite. If some of you are going to always come forward with the argument that the crowd cheers for the underdog, what happened in this case? Why, even if it were true on how some of you saw it, one time behind the underdog and one time behind Justine, wasn't the crowd totally behind the underdog the whole time, like they are with Venus and Serena? Hmmmmmmmm
2black
2strong

minboy
May 26th, 2004, 10:41 PM
Justine speaks French...

and then.........?

They like her because she's a great game, great technique ( french can enjoy it ) and because of her story. Also she touched them with her final speech last year.
Language has nothing to do with it. If anything the french are usually pissed off to see "little belgians" winning on their own soil.

It's like saying the american crowd support Hewitt because he speaks english, germans supporting federer because he speaks german, spanish supporting south-american players because they speak spanish, .....

esquímaux
May 26th, 2004, 10:41 PM
:yawn:

minboy
May 26th, 2004, 10:48 PM
So people like to see Venus and Serena play, but not for them to win...and then comes the question: why´s that?! why them specific?!

Nothing wrong with it, just a question...

I think venus is ok for them, but serena repressents everything french people can't stand about americans : over-confidence; self-centredness ; trying to intimidate opponents; ......also her " we don't want to make war, we want to make clothes" last year wasn't really appreciated.

Before people quote me on this : I didn't say i agree with them, just saying why i think they don't seem to like her.

minboy
May 26th, 2004, 10:53 PM
2black


Oh yeah, french are racists,i forgot about this :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
That's the reason they hate Thierry Henry, David Trezeguet, Lilian Thuram, Marcel Desailly, Patrick Viera, ....


2strong

And that's the reason they couldn't stand Steffy Graf :rolleyes:

flyingmachine
May 26th, 2004, 10:55 PM
:yawn:
:lol:

flyingmachine
May 26th, 2004, 10:55 PM
and then.........?

They like her because she's a great game, great technique ( french can enjoy it ) and because of her story. Also she touched them with her final speech last year.
Language has nothing to do with it. If anything the french are usually pissed off to see "little belgians" winning on their own soil.

It's like saying the american crowd support Hewitt because he speaks english, germans supporting federer because he speaks german, spanish supporting south-american players because they speak spanish, .....

Good point.

Come-on-kim
May 26th, 2004, 10:57 PM
They were all the time behind Justine. I think it's because she gets along very well with the other french players, so they consider her maybe as half french :p

fifiricci
May 26th, 2004, 10:59 PM
Oh yeah, french are racists,i forgot about this :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
That's the reason they hate Thierry Henry, David Trezeguet, Lilian Thuram, Marcel Desailly, Patrick Viera, ....




And that's the reason they couldn't stand Steffy Graf :rolleyes:
Da Forehand wont know who they are, so thanks for educating him!

fammmmedspin
May 26th, 2004, 11:05 PM
I'm pissed off about it too, because even when Vee and Rena are down in a match against an "underdog" the crowd is staunchly behind the "underdog". Here we have the NO. 1 player in the world, down in the first set and again at the end of the second set and the crowd is uproariously behind the favorite. If some of you are going to always come forward with the argument that the crowd cheers for the underdog, what happened in this case? Why, even if it were true on how some of you saw it, one time behind the underdog and one time behind Justine, wasn't the crowd totally behind the underdog the whole time, like they are with Venus and Serena? Hmmmmmmmm
1. The crowd wasn't behind Justine. They wanted a good match and cheered both on. They might marginally have favoured Justine but when they saw an upset was possible they supported Tax too. The French crowd likes underdogs too and will be even handed if they like the challenging player or realise that their favourite isn't going anywhere in the tournament anyway.

2. Justine is French for their purposes until she meets Momo. But for the odd 17C treaty she would be French.

3. The crowd likes Justine. Many reasons for this to do with her personality and style of play and the nature of some of her wins.

4. Serena is American. Thats about as unpopular in France as being a French Muslim in a veil.

5. The crowd doesn't like Serena. Many reasons for that some personal, some connected with the fact that she fits much of the the European American stereotype - apart from the over-eating

DelMonte
May 26th, 2004, 11:07 PM
Oh yeah, french are racists,i forgot about this :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
That's the reason they hate Thierry Henry, David Trezeguet, Lilian Thuram, Marcel Desailly, Patrick Viera, ....




And that's the reason they couldn't stand Steffy Graf :rolleyes:

No offence, but I think the argument that "the French like Thierry Henry etc so they cannot be racist" is an extremely naive and problematic one. Racism in France (as it is in all parts of the world) is much more complex.

I am sure you are aware that although millions of people were celebrating the victory of the French football national team at the World Cup as a victory for a multicultural France, there were also a lot of people who claimed that it was a shame that the World Cup had won by a team that was not really/truly 'French'.

Also, if I remember correctly there was a bit of controversy when a black or bi-racial woman won the Miss France title a few years ago; many people thought she couldn't represent France because of her racial heritage.

Please note that I am not trying to draw any conclusions about whether the French Open crowd is racist or not (this was not even the debate I wanted to start when I posted this thread), my only point is we can't always hold up particular individuals who seem to be accepted in order to draw sweeping conclusions about race relations in a particular country. Sometimes they are representative of what is going on but sometimes they are not.

Philip
May 26th, 2004, 11:12 PM
It just shows how great a tennis player venus and serena are, people probably dont cheer them on in their tight situations simply because they know they will probably come back and win anyway, with or without their support.

Thats how i see it anyway... and I'm not a particular fan of either :)

DelMonte
May 26th, 2004, 11:17 PM
Maybe I should explain why I started this thread. I just wanted to find out whether Justine in Paris is the equivalent of Jen in NY. I think that Jen is so popular in NY that no matter who she plays-- underdog or not-- I can't imagine the crowd ever turning against her or cheering for the other player. With Justine's fairy tale win last year, I just wanted to know whether she has a similar status at RG.

fammmmedspin
May 26th, 2004, 11:21 PM
The French crowd are the descendants of the people who sat knitting around the Guillotine in their revolution. They are judgemental. They take against players who seem to be arrogant or disrespectful or who play with the rules or who don't try or bore them. It doesn't take much to see why they would prefer Justine to Serena on a whole range of grounds and you don't need to factor in that Serena is black. If you entertain them and don't upset them they will be fair to you. Unfortunately they are also vindictive - so baiting them (Jennifer) or saying you will ignore them (Serena) isn't very clever - indeed the French crowd will just register it as confirmation that they were right not to like you or Americans in general.

bandabou
May 26th, 2004, 11:26 PM
But wasn´t it Justine the one who actually acted against the rules?! Serena may have done much wrong, but she never acted against the rules imo....

fammmmedspin
May 26th, 2004, 11:27 PM
Maybe I should explain why I started this thread. I just wanted to find out whether Justine in Paris is the equivalent of Jen in NY. I think that Jen is so popular in NY that no matter who she plays-- underdog or not-- I can't imagine the crowd ever turning against her or cheering for the other player. With Justine's fairy tale win last year, I just wanted to know whether she has a similar status at RG.I think (impression only but it has to be) that the French crowd likes Henin but she is still relatively new. The people they love are the people who they have grown to appreciate over time. Graf gave them some great finals from 92 on and they rewarded her with affection in FO99. Justine isn't quite French and hasn't been around that long - she does however have the advantage that they won't jump on her if she starts losing as they have with practically every French player at some time from Testud to Pierce to Momo.

Jen in New York by contrast is a local, she is infront of the crowd she grabbed in 1991 as a kid and her fighting style (like Connors) is what that crowd loves.

Volcana
May 26th, 2004, 11:28 PM
I felt they were applauding a bit longer and louder for Garbin. But they weren't ANTI-Justine.

fammmmedspin
May 26th, 2004, 11:31 PM
But wasn´t it Justine the one who actually acted against the rules?! Serena may have done much wrong, but she never acted against the rules imo....
A lot of the peole they guillotined were innocent too.

bandabou
May 26th, 2004, 11:43 PM
A lot of the peole they guillotined were innocent too.

Sooo......?!

fammmmedspin
May 26th, 2004, 11:50 PM
Sooo......?!
Soo guilt or innocence doesn't matter . Crowds don't analyse problems like the jury in "12 Angry Men", they jump in one direction on instinct and gut feeling and run that way.

WorldWar24
May 26th, 2004, 11:58 PM
The crowd was supporting Tax

The only people supporting Henin were the belgians

Besides they were all a bunch of kids coz today was kids' day at Roland Garros :dance:

PointBlank
May 26th, 2004, 11:58 PM
The NY crowd loves Jen. She was born in New York and the crowd there watched some of the best matches of her life

The French crowd loves Justine. She speaks French

Its all where you are from

Tryphon
May 27th, 2004, 12:11 AM
If anything the french are usually pissed off to see "little belgians" winning on their own soil.
Are you kidding? Since Momo can't seem to win it and Mary's win is history, a Belgian winner is the next best thing. We have no shame in claiming Juju as one of our owns, even Kim, we're neighbours you know. :D

I am sure you are aware that although millions of people were celebrating the victory of the French football national team at the World Cup as a victory for a multicultural France, there were also a lot of people who claimed that it was a shame that the World Cup had won by a team that was not really/truly 'French'.
It wasn't a lot of people, mostly one: Le Pen.
The rest of the population was very happy to celebrate the win, including the ones who are racist in everyday life :fiery: but not for a winning football team. ;)

Also the thing "Serena got booed because of Anti-Americanism" doesn't seem accurate at all. Anti-Americanism is a general feeling about politics, economics, whatever but not against individuals - unless their name is Bush or Rumsfeld.

bandabou
May 27th, 2004, 12:12 AM
Soo guilt or innocence doesn't matter . Crowds don't analyse problems like the jury in "12 Angry Men", they jump in one direction on instinct and gut feeling and run that way.


Specially concerning the sisters, nothing matters it seems....too bad, but that´s life I guess...as long as the wins keep coming.

minboy
May 27th, 2004, 12:21 AM
No offence, but I think the argument that "the French like Thierry Henry etc so they cannot be racist" is an extremely naive and problematic one. Racism in France (as it is in all parts of the world) is much more complex.

I am sure you are aware that although millions of people were celebrating the victory of the French football national team at the World Cup as a victory for a multicultural France, there were also a lot of people who claimed that it was a shame that the World Cup had won by a team that was not really/truly 'French'.

Also, if I remember correctly there was a bit of controversy when a black or bi-racial woman won the Miss France title a few years ago; many people thought she couldn't represent France because of her racial heritage.

Please note that I am not trying to draw any conclusions about whether the French Open crowd is racist or not (this was not even the debate I wanted to start when I posted this thread), my only point is we can't always hold up particular individuals who seem to be accepted in order to draw sweeping conclusions about race relations in a particular country. Sometimes they are representative of what is going on but sometimes they are not.

1. Very very few people complained about the fact that their football team wasn't "100% french" ( gosh i just hate to speak like that ). Actually their considered it as an example of integration. They were very proud that a) they won the world cup and that b) it was a multicultural team. They took it as a symbol. I mean, if you had to sustain all their "we're world champ" again and again for four bloody years , you wouldn't dare to say something like this.

2. Hello!!!! that's the audience who vote for the Miss france contest!! They decided by themselves who they wanted to win. There wasn't any controversy at all, they couldn't be any controversy.

3. I'm not pro-france at all , always supporting frenchman's opponent in whatever sport ( i know it's stupid but i'm not the only one here ) , but the french are not racists. Maybe there's an anti-islamic feeling right now, but it's about religion, and not about race. They don't mind the color of the skin. As long as someone embrace franch values, they will consider him french, doesn't matter if he's black, yellow, red, green or whatever.
When Lepen ( extrem right wing )reached the final round of the presidential elections two years ago, they were streets demonstrations like there hasn't been for decades.

Just don't try to speak about something you don't know. I don't know how things are going in England, so i wouldn't dare to talk about the situation over there. But i do know how things are going in France, and i'm telling the truth. You wouldn't believe how hard it is for me to defend french people, but they are just not racist. Not at all.

minboy
May 27th, 2004, 12:28 AM
The crowd was supporting Tax

The only people supporting Henin were the belgians

Besides they were all a bunch of kids coz today was kids' day at Roland Garros :dance:

Woaw!! you can tell who's french and who's belgian just by hearing their voice?? Man, you're really gifted, aren't you?

GoSandrine
May 27th, 2004, 12:37 AM
food fight!

:spit:

minboy
May 27th, 2004, 12:39 AM
Are you kidding? Since Momo can't seem to win it and Mary's win is history, a Belgian winner is the next best thing. We have no shame in claiming Juju as one of our owns, even Kim, we're neighbours you know. :D

.

Don 't think so.
Been at RG last year ( day of the 1/4 ), and the people i met were just pissed off to see two belgians in 1/2. They said they liked both Justine and Kim, but felt ashame that " a french can't do better than a belgian". Also been at France -belgium friendly football match right before the world cup two years ago, and comments around us were " what a shame, losing to belgians!"

ok, i admit, since a ferw years it's ok to be belgian in france, but not so long ago it wasn't the case at all.

btw : Justine isn't one of yours ;)

Rocketta
May 27th, 2004, 12:44 AM
food fight!

:spit:
:lol:

*pops popcorn and gets comfy* ;)

DelMonte
May 27th, 2004, 12:47 AM
1. Very very few people complained about the fact that their football team wasn't "100% french" ( gosh i just hate to speak like that ). Actually their considered it as an example of integration. They were very proud that a) they won the world cup and that b) it was a multicultural team. They took it as a symbol. I mean, if you had to sustain all their "we're world champ" again and again for four bloody years , you wouldn't dare to say something like this.

2. Hello!!!! that's the audience who vote for the Miss france contest!! They decided by themselves who they wanted to win. There wasn't any controversy at all, they couldn't be any controversy.

3. I'm not pro-france at all , always supporting frenchman's opponent in whatever sport ( i know it's stupid but i'm not the only one here ) , but the french are not racists. Maybe there's an anti-islamic feeling right now, but it's about religion, and not about race. They don't mind the color of the skin. As long as someone embrace franch values, they will consider him french, doesn't matter if he's black, yellow, red, green or whatever.
When Lepen ( extrem right wing )reached the final round of the presidential elections two years ago, they were streets demonstrations like there hasn't been for decades.

Just don't try to speak about something you don't know. I don't know how things are going in England, so i wouldn't dare to talk about the situation over there. But i do know how things are going in France, and i'm telling the truth. You wouldn't believe how hard it is for me to defend french people, but they are just not racist. Not at all.

Minboy, I do believe that I know a little about the situation I am talking about. I have studied European history at university and continue to be a keen follower of European (and other) politics. I am aware that this does not make me an expert but I do believe that my opinion is somewhat informed.

Please read my post again in order to understand the points I was trying to make.

I did not say that the French are racist or even non-racist for that matter.

What I did say was that one cannot conclude whether a country is racist on the basis of how people in this country treat a few particular famous individuals. Again, the proposition that "The French are not racist because they like Thierry Henry" is just flawed and inattentive to the complexity of the issue.

Am I more clear now?

DelMonte

ps the people who criticised the black or bi-racial for not being french enough were not the judges but ordinary people.

minboy
May 27th, 2004, 12:58 AM
Minboy, I do believe that I know a little about the situation I am talking about. I have studied European history at university and continue to be a keen follower of European (and other) politics. I am aware that this does not make me an expert but I do believe that my opinion is somewhat informed.

Please read my post again in order to understand the points I was trying to make.

I did not say that the French are racist or even non-racist for that matter.

What I did say was that your proposition that one can conclude whether a country is racist cannot be made on the basis of how people in this country treat a few particular famous individuals. Again, the proposition that "The French are not racist because they like Thierry Henry" is just flawed and inattentive to the complexity of the issue.

Am I more clear now?

DelMonte

ps the people who criticised the black or bi-racial for not being french enough were not the judges but ordinary people.


1.You can't grasp a situation in books. You can learn facts, not feelings.

2. I didn't say " french love Henry so they can't be racist". It was an example, not a demonstration.

3. Ordinary people didn't criticize the 'bi-racial' french.

talk about something you know next time

hotandspicey
May 27th, 2004, 12:58 AM
I saw that match.In the first set,there were a select group of people,supporting both players.....in the second set,I somehow felt that the crowd was behind Tati all the way.Justine got frusted at one point,and some boos were heard,but nothing major.Tati played out of her mind.The crowd gave her a standing ovation at the end.Well done,Tati!!!!

DelMonte
May 27th, 2004, 01:01 AM
1.You can't grasp a situation in books. You can learn facts, not feelings.

2. I didn't say " french love Henry so they can't be racist". It was an example, not a demonstration.

3. Ordinary people didn't criticize the 'bi-racial' french.

talk about something you know next time

ok, fine. good night to you.

Tryphon
May 27th, 2004, 01:02 AM
Don 't think so.
Been at RG last year ( day of the 1/4 ), and the people i met were just pissed off to see two belgians in 1/2. They said they liked both Justine and Kim, but felt ashame that " a french can't do better than a belgian". Also been at France -belgium friendly football match right before the world cup two years ago, and comments around us were " what a shame, losing to belgians!"

ok, i admit, since a ferw years it's ok to be belgian in france, but not so long ago it wasn't the case at all.

btw : Justine isn't one of yours ;)OK I see what you mean now. These people were doing this kind of remarks in reference to our old bad habits of making fun of Belgian people in our jokes, just like Germans make jokes about Austrians and so on.

By the way I don't remember any controversy either about the election of the somewhat black Miss France - but then it's not because I don't remember it that it necessarily did not happen. :o

And thanks for saying French people are not racist - but many are, unfortunately (probably much more against arabs than against blacks nowadays, you're right) although I still think it has nothing to do with Serena being booed. I can't believe how much the Justine vs Serena match is still discussed on this board. People are reading too much into it really. The crowd at Roland-Garros likes booing at any occasion and the crowd at Roland-Garros is fickle. That's all. :rolleyes:

dreamgoddess099
May 27th, 2004, 01:05 AM
The french crowd hates arrogate people.
Arrogate people= Anybody who thinks the french's approval is neither desired nor required and doesn't give a shit about being on their good side.
They also like weak players because they feel that they
provide needed help for those players to win. They don't like strong players because strong players are threatening. In fact they try to weaken stronger players by booing them.

minboy
May 27th, 2004, 01:11 AM
ok, fine. good night to you.

ok, i 'm sorry. I realize what i post could come across as aggressive, but i'm just pissed off by Justine's loss.
I didn't meant to be agresive
( still, what i said was the truth)

DelMonte
May 27th, 2004, 01:18 AM
ok, i 'm sorry. I realize what i post could come across as aggressive, but i'm just pissed off by Justine's loss.
I didn't meant to be agresive
( still, what i said was the truth)

apology accepted. we'll just have to agree to disagree then.

dreamgoddess099
May 27th, 2004, 01:33 AM
The crowd at Roland-Garros likes booing at any occasion and the crowd at Roland-Garros is fickle. That's all. :rolleyes:But usually they are fickle because someone does something. In the case of Serena vs. Justine last year; Justine was the one showing the gamemanship, but the crowd booed Serena instead of Justine. BTW, say the french like Justine because she speaks french is BS. There are countries in Africa where the national language is french, but I doubt they'd cheer for a french speaking African like they did for Justine. Furthermore, Serena didn't get booed last year because they think she is arrogant, they don't like her, or the fact that she is American. They booed her because they feared her after the way she whipped Amelie. They saw the strength of this strong young black woman and feared for little white Justine. Think about it, after all that Justine tried in that match (even coming out strong in the first set); Serena still just wouldn't go away. Serena had the experience of someone who had played many semi-final matches and won even when not playing well because she continued to compete. The crowd knew that and figured they needed to help poor little Justine out. Serena had the momentum, was the more mentally stable, and was on her way to making it to her fifth grandslam final in a row. She was simply to strong willed to break on her own. Nice to see how the french treat their defending champions. :rolleyes:

ico4498
May 27th, 2004, 01:39 AM
"they are just not racist. Not at all."

the French are the first to achieve this in all recorded history.

DeDe4925
May 27th, 2004, 02:50 AM
ummm okay, then people just don't like serena and venus. if someone said that would it make you happy? people (v and s fans almost always) start threads about how popular they are all over the world and such, and then they make more threads about how crowds are rude by cheering for who they are playing. maybe poeople like to see venus and serena play, but they like to see the other person win... is there anything wrong with that?
There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, however, I'm not one to start threads regarding their popularity or the fact that people booed them. My point is that if it's the case, that people for no reason at all :rolleyes: don't want the sisters to win, then don't use the "underdog" excuse. Williams' fans get just as tired of hearing that as some white people on this board get tired of the so-called "race card".

DeDe4925
May 27th, 2004, 03:04 AM
1. The crowd wasn't behind Justine. They wanted a good match and cheered both on. They might marginally have favoured Justine but when they saw an upset was possible they supported Tax too. The French crowd likes underdogs too and will be even handed if they like the challenging player or realise that their favourite isn't going anywhere in the tournament anyway.

2. Justine is French for their purposes until she meets Momo. But for the odd 17C treaty she would be French.

3. The crowd likes Justine. Many reasons for this to do with her personality and style of play and the nature of some of her wins.

4. Serena is American. Thats about as unpopular in France as being a French Muslim in a veil.

5. The crowd doesn't like Serena. Many reasons for that some personal, some connected with the fact that she fits much of the the European American stereotype - apart from the over-eating
First of all, I saw the match and in my opinion the French crowd was firmly behind Justine in this match. If they weren't why even give excuses as to why they were.
And...uhhhh hello, I wasn't talking about the French crowd only with regard to my question. There is a bigger issue here than just the French Open. Also if what you say is true, I have to give kudos to the French for supporting one of their own, whereas Americans do not. Supposedly according to most of you here, Americans will support any "underdog" and anyone else against Venus and Serena.

Regarding your reasons for their support of Justine, I could say the very same things about Venus and Serena. Justine certainly does not own personality and style of play, and certainly you're not going to pretend that the nature of some of Justine's wins are sportsmanlike. Nor should you even compare the nature of wins between Justine and Vee and Rena, because Vee and Rena have never used gamesmanship to win a match, unlike Justine.

But if your above excuses help you to sleep at night, more power to you. If you like it, I love it.

"Topaz"
May 27th, 2004, 03:05 AM
Wait a minute! There is DeMond and there is DelMonte, huh! God help me! Using fast reading I swear they were one of the same with some typos in between. Sorry, gals. :o

cheesestix
May 27th, 2004, 03:06 AM
There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, however, I'm not one to start threads regarding their popularity or the fact that people booed them. My point is that if it's the case, that people for no reason at all :rolleyes: don't want the sisters to win, then don't use the "underdog" excuse. Williams' fans get just as tired of hearing that as some white people on this board get tired of the so-called "race card".

What the hell's that supposed to mean?

You simply refuse to accept that a person (specifically, white person) can dislike Venus and/or Serena for any other reason than racism. Right?

As a matter of fact, why don't you answer that question: Do you think a white person can dislike Venus and/or Serena for any other reason than racism????

It's real nice how you state the "underdog" thing as concrete, yet the "race card" is only "so-called" (like it may or may not exist). :rolleyes: You are so not objective about anything !!!!!!!

DeDe4925
May 27th, 2004, 03:08 AM
The French crowd are the descendants of the people who sat knitting around the Guillotine in their revolution. They are judgemental. They take against players who seem to be arrogant or disrespectful or who play with the rules or who don't try or bore them. It doesn't take much to see why they would prefer Justine to Serena on a whole range of grounds and you don't need to factor in that Serena is black. If you entertain them and don't upset them they will be fair to you. Unfortunately they are also vindictive - so baiting them (Jennifer) or saying you will ignore them (Serena) isn't very clever - indeed the French crowd will just register it as confirmation that they were right not to like you or Americans in general.
That's called ignorance and I doubt a whole nation of people are that ignorant.

fammmmedspin
May 27th, 2004, 03:08 AM
But usually they are fickle because someone does something. In the case of Serena vs. Justine last year; Justine was the one showing the gamemanship, but the crowd booed Serena instead of Justine. BTW, say the french like Justine because she speaks french is BS. There are countries in Africa where the national language is french, but I doubt they'd cheer for a french speaking African like they did for Justine. Furthermore, Serena didn't get booed last year because they think she is arrogant, they don't like her, or the fact that she is American. They booed her because they feared her after the way she whipped Amelie. They saw the strength of this strong young black woman and feared for little white Justine. Think about it, after all that Justine tried in that match (even coming out strong in the first set); Serena still just wouldn't go away. Serena had the experience of someone who had played many semi-final matches and won even when not playing well because she continued to compete. The crowd knew that and figured they needed to help poor little Justine out. Serena had the momentum, was the more mentally stable, and was on her way to making it to her fifth grandslam final in a row. She was simply to strong willed to break on her own. Nice to see how the french treat their defending champions. :rolleyes:I think its unwise to carry US perceptions of a black struggle over to Europe. The situation in Europe is quite different than in the USA even if you were right about many Americans seeing black sports people as a chalenge which seems bizarre given their numbers in most US sports.

A French crowd will always prefer Momo or Justine to Serena because they prefer French players, because they prefer an older style of tennis with rallies, because they like underdogs and because Serena fits the stereotype of the powerful, overly muscled, arrogant, overconfident, gauche American abroad. Its an American stereotype not a Black one.

The hand inncident also lent itself to both interpretations. Justine might have been delaying, but, in the crowds eyes, Serena was either the one who was serving ignoring the etiquette of the game to see if Justine was ready or Serena was the one challenging the umpire to get a ruling changed. Anyone who watched FO99 could predict what the crowd would do to such a player regardless of whether she was small and white or big and black if she was facing a crowd favourite..

DeDe4925
May 27th, 2004, 03:23 AM
What the hell's that supposed to mean?

You simply refuse to accept that a person (specifically, white person) can dislike Venus and/or Serena for any other reason than racism. Right?

As a matter of fact, why don't you answer that question: Do you think a white person can dislike Venus and/or Serena for any other reason than racism????

It's real nice how you state the "underdog" thing as concrete, yet the "race card" is only "so-called" (like it may or may not exist). :rolleyes: You are so not objective about anything !!!!!!!
:lol: You're such an idiot. First of all I never said anything about racism. You brought it up and so did a lot of other people in this thread.

To answer your question, sure I think a white person can dislike Vee and Rena for other reasons than racism. I've just yet to hear anything reasonable. When asked why some white people don't like them, some white people tend to piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

In my opinion, the so-called "race-card" does not exist. I don't like the term because I think it's code for "stay in your place". And, yes on this subject I am subjective because it's my opinion and opinions tend to be subjective. I can be objective about plenty of things. But, of course you wouldn't know that because you don't know me. However, I can say that you are not objective about anything when it comes to the Williams' sisters or their fans and that's based on all of your posts. People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

Nobody's Perfecc
May 27th, 2004, 03:34 AM
The French crowd is racist. They don't like the Williams sisters. Crowd favoritism. Blah blah blah.

This has been discussed ad nauseum and almost everytime the discussion has gone nowhere.

EDIT: Sorry to be a party pooper. If you like arguing about these things, be my guest. :) I should've just kept my mouth shut.

tennischick
May 27th, 2004, 05:07 AM
IMO the French crowd was pro Garbin (the underdog) but they also applauded Justine's good moments. there was no hostility towards Justine but the majority seemed to be rooting for Garbin.

bandabou
May 27th, 2004, 06:03 AM
I think its unwise to carry US perceptions of a black struggle over to Europe. The situation in Europe is quite different than in the USA even if you were right about many Americans seeing black sports people as a chalenge which seems bizarre given their numbers in most US sports.

A French crowd will always prefer Momo or Justine to Serena because they prefer French players, because they prefer an older style of tennis with rallies, because they like underdogs and because Serena fits the stereotype of the powerful, overly muscled, arrogant, overconfident, gauche American abroad. Its an American stereotype not a Black one.

The hand inncident also lent itself to both interpretations. Justine might have been delaying, but, in the crowds eyes, Serena was either the one who was serving ignoring the etiquette of the game to see if Justine was ready or Serena was the one challenging the umpire to get a ruling changed. Anyone who watched FO99 could predict what the crowd would do to such a player regardless of whether she was small and white or big and black if she was facing a crowd favourite..


Older style with rallies?! What game does Serena play then, because I´ve seen her rallie quite a few times......

changing of ruling?! If Justine raised her hand, it is two serves for Serena....simple. THAT IS the rule!! And we all saw that Justine raised her hand AFTER Serena already was serving....do your homework, next time.

Allez-H
May 27th, 2004, 06:55 AM
French crowd likes Justine :shrug:
I gotta agree on that;they simply really like Justine and aslong as she doesn't have to play a French player they support her.I had the feeling that they were supporting througout the whole match for Justine,sometimes you would hear a 'allez Thatiana' but it was very rare.Certainly in the second,they were all behind Justine.

GoGoMaggie
May 27th, 2004, 09:37 AM
What's wrong if the French cheer on Justine and not on the Sisters? That's just their preference and nobody should force them to cheer on anyone they don't like to. Who knows the reason for their preference? It may very well have to do with cultural differences and given the French seem quite averse to some of the Americans have done, I can see where their sentiment comes from. Race may play a part but not the biggest factor for sure. I mean, I'm sure some of the crowd who boo the sisters and cheer on justine on whatever circumstances are racially motivated. I just don't understand why some of the Willy fans are so fussy about the sisters not being cheered for or liked when they are "supposed" to be favored. Everyone has the right to like whoever they want to just like you have chosen the sisters as your favorites.

moby
May 27th, 2004, 09:38 AM
my take on the match (of which i only watched the last 3 games)
was that the crowd was chattering rather loudly because an upset was imminent
i dont think they were taking sides

faste5683
May 27th, 2004, 12:11 PM
I just watched the match. It was nothing special: Justine made a ton of *wild* errors which I attribute to lack of match play (and nerves). Tat played a nice, solid match.
The crowd was like any other crowd, some for one player, some for the other, many just appreciating fine shots made by either player.

Of course, this match was played in the morning, wasn't it? I'd imagine that as the wine consumption level rises, the crowd behavior becomes increasingly erratic.

:wavey:

saki
May 27th, 2004, 12:29 PM
To answer your question, sure I think a white person can dislike Vee and Rena for other reasons than racism. I've just yet to hear anything reasonable. When asked why some white people don't like them, some white people tend to piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

In my opinion, the so-called "race-card" does not exist. I don't like the term because I think it's code for "stay in your place". And, yes on this subject I am subjective because it's my opinion and opinions tend to be subjective. I can be objective about plenty of things. But, of course you wouldn't know that because you don't know me. However, I can say that you are not objective about anything when it comes to the Williams' sisters or their fans and that's based on all of your posts. People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.
I completely understand that you love V & S and can't understand why other people don't, but it really is unfair to suppose that all the reasons you've heard why people don't like them are unreasonable. I don't deny that racism exists (I'm brown, btw, and don't support V & S but don't hate either), but to suggest that racism is the only reason why everyone you've come across doesn't like V&S is just laughable. It's perfectly possible for someone not to support the sisters for no other reason than that they like other players better. That's certainly what it is for me - I prefer Justine and Amelie rather than hate V & S.

As for the race card, I don't think you can dismiss it altogether. Sometimes racism prompted an incident, sometimes it didn't. In the cases where it didn't but people claim that it did, that's playing the race card. Again, racisim does exist and is a serious problem but it's not a problem that's helped by people seeing it where it isn't. Venus & Serena are enormously popular - why do you think they have so many endorsements? - but not everyone supports them. Some of these people will be racist, but many won't be.

cheesestix
May 27th, 2004, 12:34 PM
To answer your question, sure I think a white person can dislike Vee and Rena for other reasons than racism. I've just yet to hear anything reasonable. When asked why some white people don't like them, some white people tend to piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

THAT STATEMENT SAYS IT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!

You've yet to hear anything "reasonable"?????

Who the fuck do you think you are?????????? As if ANYONE owes you an explanation for not liking them?????????? :rolleyes: Oooooh, we must check it by you first, or else be called a racist????? :rolleyes:

Besides, you just contradicted yourself ON 2 COUNTS with your post!

1) You said, "I think a white person can dislike Vee and Rena for other reasons than racism. I've just yet to hear anything reasonable. " - Makes no sense. You're saying that yes there are reasons to not like them (other than racism), but yet there is no reasonable explanation to not like them. Because, you've heard it all, right? And this is nothing new from you. You've said it before that "what's not to like?". You can't come up with any reason that someone wouldn't like them, so how would you know of any? We all know you think they walk on water anyway. You would never ACCEPT someone's reason, because you are too subjective. In your mind, it's like "well, I don't agree with this person's reason, so it's not valid". :rolleyes:

2) You say that you never say anything about racism, yet when someone dislikes Venus or Serena, you ALWAYS cry racism. :rolleyes:

As for the "race-card", cmon!!!!!!!!!! People use it all of the time (you included). Call it what you want, but it's real.

Any time someone says, "well you just don't like so and so because they're black" or "so and so didn't get that job because he's black", that's the race card. That's either the a) scapegoat that people use to justify why something didn't go their way, or b) the diversion to try and discredit someone's argument. SOMETIMES (maybe a lot of the time) it's real, but not always. There is such a thing as crying wolf.

cheesestix
May 27th, 2004, 12:40 PM
I completely understand that you love V & S and can't understand why other people don't, but it really is unfair to suppose that all the reasons you've heard why people don't like them are unreasonable. I don't deny that racism exists (I'm brown, btw, and don't support V & S but don't hate either), but to suggest that racism is the only reason why everyone you've come across doesn't like V&S is just laughable. It's perfectly possible for someone not to support the sisters for no other reason than that they like other players better. That's certainly what it is for me - I prefer Justine and Amelie rather than hate V & S.

As for the race card, I don't think you can dismiss it altogether. Sometimes racism prompted an incident, sometimes it didn't. In the cases where it didn't but people claim that it did, that's playing the race card. Again, racisim does exist and is a serious problem but it's not a problem that's helped by people seeing it where it isn't. Venus & Serena are enormously popular - why do you think they have so many endorsements? - but not everyone supports them. Some of these people will be racist, but many won't be.

BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE FUCKING HEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I posted before I read this, but it jives with everything that I said!!!!!!!!!!!!

Greenout
May 27th, 2004, 12:44 PM
I completely understand that you love V & S and can't understand why other people don't, but it really is unfair to suppose that all the reasons you've heard why people don't like them are unreasonable. I don't deny that racism exists (I'm brown, btw, and don't support V & S but don't hate either), but to suggest that racism is the only reason why everyone you've come across doesn't like V&S is just laughable. It's perfectly possible for someone not to support the sisters for no other reason than that they like other players better. That's certainly what it is for me - I prefer Justine and Amelie rather than hate V & S.

As for the race card, I don't think you can dismiss it altogether. Sometimes racism prompted an incident, sometimes it didn't. In the cases where it didn't but people claim that it did, that's playing the race card. Again, racisim does exist and is a serious problem but it's not a problem that's helped by people seeing it where it isn't. Venus & Serena are enormously popular - why do you think they have so many endorsements? - but not everyone supports them. Some of these people will be racist, but many won't be.


Really. Look at all those Mainland Chinese, and those Japanese
Justineheads. They don't like her because they choose to feel
racist toward Venus or Serena. They like her because of her
fighting spirit, and they feel an empathy that maybe be too
subtle for the average American Westerner to understand or detect.

What I'm saying is that sometimes..people are attracted to
certain tennis players not becaue of a cultural thing; but something
else that transcends nationality.

bandabou
May 27th, 2004, 03:24 PM
I think the proper question should be: Why does the crowd only cheer for the underdog as the saying goes when they are playing the Williamses and not when they are playing other top players?! Are the Williamses more superdog than other top players?!

In other words: Why do they cheer for Garbin when she´s playing a venus or serena but don´t cheer for her when she´s playing Justine?! Isn´t she more an underdog on clay against Justine than against Williamses, surface-wise?!

Allez-H
May 27th, 2004, 03:37 PM
I think the proper question should be: Why does the crowd only cheer for the underdog as the saying goes when they are playing the Williamses and not when they are playing other top players?! Are the Williamses more superdog than other top players?!

In other words: Why do they cheer for Garbin when she´s playing a venus or serena but don´t cheer for her when she´s playing Justine?! Isn´t she more an underdog on clay against Justine than against Williamses, surface-wise?!
Probably cuz they like Justine more than the Williamssisters.She's practically French in their eyes....

bandabou
May 27th, 2004, 03:39 PM
Probably cuz they like Justine more than the Williamssisters.She's practically French in their eyes....

Aight...then why don´t have people just the guts to say that upfront. Why all the theory about underdog this and that....so all that talk is crap then?!

No problemo if people don´t like them, but why all the excuses?!

Allez-H
May 27th, 2004, 03:46 PM
Aight...then why don´t have people just the guts to say that upfront. Why all the theory about underdog this and that....so all that talk is crap then?!

No problemo if people don´t like them, but why all the excuses?!
To be honest I only read the first couple of posts in this thread so I can't really argue on that :shrug:

bandabou
May 27th, 2004, 03:49 PM
To be honest I only read the first couple of posts in this thread so I can't really argue on that :shrug:

Of course....

Allez-H
May 27th, 2004, 03:51 PM
Of course....
What you don't believe me?Tssssss,so typical.....

bandabou
May 27th, 2004, 04:08 PM
What you don't believe me?Tssssss,so typical.....


I do believe you, juju... lying and a Juju-fan don´t go together! Lying and Juju otoh...... :o :devil:

Allez-H
May 27th, 2004, 04:11 PM
I do believe you, juju... lying and a Juju-fan don´t go together! Lying and Juju otoh...... :o :devil:
Whatever :rolleyes:
Shouldn't you be organising some celebrationparty for Serenas hattrick at Wimbledon?

bandabou
May 27th, 2004, 04:17 PM
Whatever :rolleyes:
Shouldn't you be organising some celebrationparty for Serenas hattrick at Wimbledon?

Relax, relax...all things in due time. Maybe I´ll have to celebrate another RG-title first no?! Never know...plus we don´t know what surprise Juju may have for us?! SHe´s been practicing as mad on grass this year....and we all know: when Juju wants something she gets it...or maybe not?! ;)

Allez-H
May 27th, 2004, 04:20 PM
Relax, relax...all things in due time. Maybe I´ll have to celebrate another RG-title first no?! Never know...plus we don´t know what surprise Juju may have for us?! SHe´s been practicing as mad on grass this year....and we all know: when Juju wants something she gets it...or maybe not?! ;)
Justine has been practising like mad on grass this year?Euhm,were do you get your info,dude :scratch:

Greenout
May 27th, 2004, 04:23 PM
Go ahead Bandy dance on our graves. Go right ahead. I think we have
proved that Philistines are dignified in defeat as well in victory.
:)

bandabou
May 27th, 2004, 04:25 PM
Justine has been practising like mad on grass this year?Euhm,were do you get your info,dude :scratch:


My bad...I meant on her volleying for Wimbledon, not on grass specifically.

Allez-H
May 27th, 2004, 04:27 PM
My bad...I meant on her volleying for Wimbledon, not on grass specifically.
But they just ain't gonna be enough,she'll get passed time after time by Serena....

bandabou
May 27th, 2004, 04:28 PM
Go ahead Bandy dance on our graves. Go right ahead. I think we have
proved that Philistines are dignified in defeat as well in victory.
:)


I ain´t dancing on your graves...I feel your pain really. No fun seeing your fav becoming the defending champion to get defeated the earliest at the tournament....no fun in that. Hey, my fav(s) have been out for months....really think I´d make fun of you guys?!

Greenout
May 27th, 2004, 04:28 PM
My bad...I meant on her volleying for Wimbledon, not on grass specifically.


I don't know Bandy. Isn't her career supposed to be over now? ;)

Greenout
May 27th, 2004, 04:30 PM
I ain´t dancing on your graves...I feel your pain really. No fun seeing your fav becoming the defending champion to get defeated the earliest at the tournament....no fun in that. Hey, my fav(s) have been out for months....really think I´d make fun of you guys?!


Unlike bandwagon hoppers...the Philistines all love her more now.

bandabou
May 27th, 2004, 04:31 PM
But they just ain't gonna be enough,she'll get passed time after time by Serena....

your words....

Allez-H
May 27th, 2004, 04:31 PM
Unlike bandwagon hoppers...the Philistines all love her more now.
Yep,she is and will always be our girl :hearts:
How much i loved that 'I *really* don't care right now' Our girl is back :drool:

Allez-H
May 27th, 2004, 04:32 PM
your words....
Are you sure they are just mine?

Greenout
May 27th, 2004, 04:32 PM
your words....


Aj's being sarcastic! :lol: You better watch out Philistines
are as big of a bunch of "liars" as the BOSS! ;)

bandabou
May 27th, 2004, 04:32 PM
Unlike bandwagon hoppers...the Philistines all love her more now.

Like it should be! :yeah:

bandabou
May 27th, 2004, 04:33 PM
Are you sure they are just mine?

of course, you just wrote them, no?!

Greenout
May 27th, 2004, 04:35 PM
Yep,she is and will always be our girl :hearts:
How much i loved that 'I *really* don't care right now' Our girl is back :drool:


She made all the Justineheads around the world get tears in their
eyes watching her lose and seeing her brave post match press
conference. Alot of players would've just walked away-
leave the areas ASAP, and say no INTERVIEWS. Adios!
The interviews tend to be really short too; but she answered
alot of questions. The replies weren't the generic match
comments either.

Allez-H
May 27th, 2004, 05:04 PM
of course, you just wrote them, no?!
Did I?

bandabou
May 27th, 2004, 06:08 PM
Did I?

That was my impression.....

Allez-H
May 27th, 2004, 06:16 PM
That was my impression.....
Are you sure....?