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Steffica Greles
May 5th, 2004, 12:35 AM
1. Chris Evert
2. Steffi Graf
3. Aranxta Sanchez-Vicario
4. Monica Seles
5. Martina Navratilova
6. Conchita Martinez
7. Gabriela Sabatini
8. Justine Henin-Hardenne
9. Jennifer Capriati
10. Mary Pierce

Other mentions to...

Novotna, Fernandez, Venus, Serena, Mandlikova, Hingis

MLF
May 5th, 2004, 12:39 AM
This is tricky. I definitely wouldn't have Arantxa ahead of Monica.

I would plump for Evert at #1, Graf at #2 ( due to titles amassed ) & Seles at #3 though on the tennis I watched I definitely feel Seles had greater clay court skills and ability than Graf.

Ryan
May 5th, 2004, 12:43 AM
Venus at #10!?!?!?! What the hell! Serena, Capriati, Hingis ALL are ahead of Venus in terms of claycourt ability.

Steffica Greles
May 5th, 2004, 12:46 AM
I'd have Seles as no.1, and I agree with you, but she just cruelly had the numbers taken away from her...although I don't want to get into the sob story routine.

Aranxta was in no less than 10 French Open semi-finals or better, finishing runner-up 3 times and winner 3 times. Most of her 29 titles were on clay, and she beat both Graf and Seles (and even Evert as a 16 year old) on that surface. She also lost in the quarter finals in 1987 (at 15), 1988, 199....what the hell, I'll write out her finishes...

1987 QF
1988 QF
1989 W
1990 R2
1991 F
1992 SF
1993 SF
1994 W
1995 F
1996 F
1997 QF
1998 W
1999 SF
2000 SF
2001 R2
2002 R1
You can't put Seles above Aranxta on that record. There's an argument that Navratilova could be above both Aranxta AND Monica, but I just don't think she was as formidable on clay as either of them.

Jakeev
May 5th, 2004, 12:47 AM
Add Virginia Ruzici and Mima Jausovec to that list since they both had great clay-court rusults in their careers.

~VaMoS~ArAnTxA~
May 5th, 2004, 12:48 AM
As far as I'm concerned, I REALLY think Arantxa should be at 1st or 2nd rank... I don't say it because she's my favorite, but she really deserves the first rank. Just have to see her Roland-Garros palamres... 3 times winner, 3 runner-up, 4 semis ans others are almost only quarters... I'm convinced the 1st rank is Arantxa's place for that.

Vamos Arantxa! :worship:

Steffica Greles
May 5th, 2004, 12:50 AM
Ryan:

Venus Williams 98 Final of Italian Open, QF French Open; 99 Hamburg winner, Rome winner; 2000 French QF; 2002 Amelia Island winner, French Open F; 2004 Warsaw winner, Amelia Island winner.

Venus is no slouch on clay, and I'd rate her above Hingis.

But I agree, I forgot (how did I do it?) that Jenn WON RG in 2001, and of course, the Barcelona Olympics.

Jakeev
May 5th, 2004, 12:50 AM
I'd have Seles as no.1, and I agree with you, but she just cruelly had the numbers taken away from her...although I don't want to get into the sob story routine.

Aranxta was in no less than 10 French Open semi-finals or better, finishing runner-up 3 times and winner 3 times. Most of her 29 titles were on clay, and she beat both Graf and Seles (and even Evert as a 16 year old) on that surface. She also lost in the quarter finals in 1987 (at 15), 1988, 199....what the hell, I'll write out her finishes...

1987 QF
1988 QF
1989 W
1990 R2
1991 F
1992 SF
1993 SF
1994 W
1995 F
1996 F
1997 QF
1998 W
1999 SF
2000 SF
2001 R2
2002 R1
You can't put Seles above Aranxta on that record. There's an argument that Navratilova could be above both Aranxta AND Monica, but I just don't think she was as formidable on clay as either of them.
But Martina was formidable on clay. People forget she grew up on the dirt and she won every major clay-court tournment except the Italian Open.

Even on clay, Martina was devastating.

Steffica Greles
May 5th, 2004, 12:51 AM
Vamos Aranxta: She does have a great record - true:) But I think you'll find Evert and Graf have better records. And even Navratilova and Seles would have arguments to be higher. But I placed her 3rd because of her longevity.

Ryan
May 5th, 2004, 12:52 AM
Ryan:

Venus Williams 98 Final of Italian Open, QF French Open; 99 Hamburg winner, Rome winner; 2000 French QF; 2002 Amelia Island winner, French Open F; 2004 Warsaw winner, Amelia Island winner.

Venus is no slouch on clay, and I'd rate her above Hingis.

But I agree, I forgot (how did I do it?) that Jenn WON RG in 2001, and of course, the Barcelona Olympics.

That is absolutely ludicrous. Someone who's only made one RG final and 2? Quarters is no way in the top 10 open era claycourters. Thats absurd.

Steffica Greles
May 5th, 2004, 12:56 AM
Ryan: What's absurd, if I may say, is that you failed to read my post and notice that I acknowledged I'd made a mistake with Jenn. I've placed her 9th now.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of somebody who's won more clay tournaments than Venus AND reached the French final. Can you? There may be someone.:)

darrinbaker00
May 5th, 2004, 01:05 AM
1. Chris Evert
2. Steffi Graf
3. Aranxta Sanchez-Vicario
4. Monica Seles
5. Martina Navratilova
6. Conchita Martinez
7. Gabriela Sabatini
8. Justine Henin-Hardenne
9. Jennifer Capriati
10. Mary Pierce

Other mentions to...

Novotna, Fernandez, Venus, Serena, Mandlikova, Hingis
Not to be nitpicky (for once), but to which Fernandez are you referring? Mary Joe? Gigi? Clarisa :rolleyes: ?

Steffica Greles
May 5th, 2004, 01:16 AM
Hehe :)

Certainly not Gigi the serve-volleyer who probably could count on one hand her career clay court wins.

Not Clarissa (what happened to her, is she injured?).

I was talking of Mary Jo, of course. 93 finalist and a handful of other good clay results. Berlin 97, too.

GoGoMaggie
May 5th, 2004, 01:22 AM
What are u smokin? Venus above Hingis on clay? Go n check the numbers already!
Hingis may not have won the FO but even just compaing her with Venus on their clay abilities is disrespectful for Martina!

Steffica Greles
May 5th, 2004, 01:26 AM
Not smoking anything, just tired.



Yeah, you're right. I was looking at Venus' wins over MArtina on clay 99 Italian final and Hamburg 2002.

Hingis has a much better record on clay now I think about it. Neither of them belong in the top 10, though, in my opinion.

MrSerenaWilliams
May 5th, 2004, 01:26 AM
My list is:

Chris Evert
Steffi Graf
Monica Seles
Martina Navratilova
Aranxta Sanchez-Vicario
Conchita Martinez
Gabriela Sabatini
Martina Hingis
Justine Henin-Hardenne
Serena Williams

faboozadoo15
May 5th, 2004, 01:39 AM
You can't put Seles above Aranxta on that record. There's an argument that Navratilova could be above both Aranxta AND Monica, but I just don't think she was as formidable on clay as either of them.
actually-- monica has 3 wins, 1 final, 3 semis, and 3 quarters. and only 1 loss before that. monica also has an incredible 142-25 (85%) winning rate on clay... and considering how long her career has been and all she's played through, that's damn good. and it's nearly 10 percent better than arantxa's clay record. not to mention that monica leads their head to head 5-1 on clay alone...

Volcana
May 5th, 2004, 01:53 AM
Margaret Court won the French three times.

And only lost two MATCHES on clay her entire CAREER.

Venus Forever
May 5th, 2004, 02:04 AM
What are u smokin? Venus above Hingis on clay? Go n check the numbers already!
Hingis may not have won the FO but even just compaing her with Venus on their clay abilities is disrespectful for Martina!
Shows how much you know.

Not only is Venus right behind Martina in career winning percentage on clay (82% for Martina, 81% for Venus), Venus will even pass Martina in winning percentage if she wins the German Open this week.

Philbo
May 5th, 2004, 02:08 AM
1) Chris Evert
2) Monica Seles
3) Steffi Graf
4) Martina Navratilova
5) Margaret Court
6) Arantxa Sanchez
7) Serena Williams
8) Justine Henin
9) Martina Hingis
10) Venus Williams

Ryan
May 5th, 2004, 02:13 AM
Ryan: What's absurd, if I may say, is that you failed to read my post and notice that I acknowledged I'd made a mistake with Jenn. I've placed her 9th now.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of somebody who's won more clay tournaments than Venus AND reached the French final. Can you? There may be someone.:)
Well for one, everyone ahead of Venus on the list.:)


Hingis: 2000-Hamburg 1999-Hilton Head, Berlin 1998-Hamburg, Rome 1997-Hilton Head

And those are only her titles. She also has two French Open finals, three semifinals, and multiple clay finals. There's absolutely no question as to who is the superior clay court player.

tommyk75
May 5th, 2004, 02:18 AM
Gotta go with Monica over Aranxta, and Martina H over Venus, although I must say both races are very close. And Martina N definitely deserves the No.5 spot. She won the French twice and reached the final three more times, giving the all-time clay champ Chris Evert some one-sided losses on the way.

And one more thing, posters need to stop spewing out bullshit like it's the covenant because it drags down the intelligence quotient of this board. People keep throwing out information like it's the obvious truth when it's just plain-out wrong. In this case, I'm talking about about you, Volcana. Margaret Court lost only twice on clay in her entire career? Oh, that's interesting. So the five times she played in the French and didn't win somehow don't count? (1961=QF, 1963=QF, 1965=RU, 1966=SF, 1971=3rd) People, if you're not sure about something, please preface it with "I think..." or "I seem to remember..." Otherwise, you run a high risk of coming off an ass.

Smackie
May 5th, 2004, 02:22 AM
1) Chris Evert
2) Steffi Graf
3) Monica Seles
4) Margaret Court
5) Martina Navratilova
6) Arantxa Sanchez
7) Justine Henin
8) Serena Williams
9) Jennifer Capriati/Martina Hingis
10) Venus Williams

I put Martina H at no.9 with Capriati cos she was a threat to anyone on clay any day. If it wasn't for the emotion, she would have won FO '99. (but was very glad that Steffi retired with that bang!)

Venus could overtake at the very least Jennifer/Hingis if she continues to play the way she has been playing, possibly her sister and Justine. But if the latter two were fit, I would still pick them over Venus.

Also, I think Margaret Court won the FO five times....but it could be me without my glasses.

MisterQ
May 5th, 2004, 02:30 AM
There is only one choice for first place, imo: Chris Evert. Won 125 consecutive matches on clay from August 1973 to May 1979. (yes, that's almost 6 years!) Even her eventual loss was extremely close, going down to Tracy Austin, 6-4, 2-6, 7-6 in the semifinals of the Italian Open. She won a record 7 RG titles for a 72-6 career record.

most of you said Evert anyway, but just in case there was any doubt... ;)

Ryan
May 5th, 2004, 02:32 AM
There's no way I'd put Jennifer on that list either. She's won THREE big clay events, RG and Charleston 01, and the Olympics in 92. She made the 02 RG semis, and thats it. She hasn't done enough damage on clay over the years IMO to put her on the list.

arcus
May 5th, 2004, 02:33 AM
Gotta go with Monica over Aranxta, and Martina H over Venus, although I must say both races are very close. And Martina N definitely deserves the No.5 spot. She won the French twice and reached the final three more times, giving the all-time clay champ Chris Evert some one-sided losses on the way.

And one more thing, posters need to stop spewing out bullshit like it's the covenant because it drags down the intelligence quotient of this board. People keep throwing out information like it's the obvious truth when it's just plain-out wrong. In this case, I'm talking about about you, Volcana. Margaret Court lost only twice on clay in her entire career? Oh, that's interesting. So the five times she played in the French and didn't win somehow don't count? (1961=QF, 1963=QF, 1965=RU, 1966=SF, 1971=3rd) People, if you're not sure about something, please preface it with "I think..." or "I seem to remember..." Otherwise, you run a high risk of coming off an ass.


Harsh, but often true tommyk,

But I agree in one sense with the point that volcana was making. MC won the event more than once, whereas many on the list only won it only the one time, so she should at least be included. Point is most on here are not old enough to remember her playing (me included, but i read my tennis history!!). :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

Volcana
May 5th, 2004, 02:33 AM
So the five times she played in the French and didn't win somehow don't count? (1961=QF, 1963=QF, 1965=RU, 1966=SF, 1971=3rd) I'm sure your sources are impecable. Mine is the ITF.

http://www2.itftennis.com/PD/PlayerActivity/ActivityResults.asp?PlayerID=20003453&start_year=NULL&end_year=NULL&tourtype=A&datesort=A

For some strange reason, thought they have the assciation with the slams, and their records for Margaret Court go back to 1963, their database only lists her playing the French in 1969, 1970, 1971 and 1973. I'm sure you know better than them, of course.:)

You are, after all, Lord God You, and they are only the lowly International Tennis Federation.

faboozadoo15
May 5th, 2004, 02:35 AM
There is only one choice for first place, imo: Chris Evert. Won 125 consecutive matches on clay from August 1973 to May 1979. (yes, that's almost 6 years!) Even her eventual loss was extremely close, going down to Tracy Austin, 6-4, 2-6, 7-6 in the semifinals of the Italian Open. She won a record 7 RG titles for a 72-6 career record.

most of you said Evert anyway, but just in case there was any doubt... ;)
wasn't for me... but putting anybody but her would be a mistake unless you have a different interpretation of "greatest"
for instance-- IMO, monica seles at her best on clay would beat chris evert at her best on clay. but the achievement of evert is mind boggling and she so deserves this #1-- 90-something% winnings, dearies!

arcus
May 5th, 2004, 02:38 AM
I'm sure your sources are impecable. Mine is the ITF.

http://www2.itftennis.com/PD/PlayerActivity/ActivityResults.asp?PlayerID=20003453&start_year=NULL&end_year=NULL&tourtype=A&datesort=A

For some strange reason, thought they have the assciation with the slams, and their records for Margaret Court go back to 1963, their database only lists her playing the French in 1969, 1970, 1971 and 1973. I'm sure you know better than them, of course.:)

volcana, does the ITF data base only record courts results pre 68 in fed cup? 63-68 are only fed cup results.
:)

tommyk75
May 5th, 2004, 02:38 AM
Volcana, the reason seems pretty clear. They seem to have records starting from the Open Era (1968).

Smackie
May 5th, 2004, 02:41 AM
Volcana, the reason seems pretty clear. They seem to have records starting from the Open Era (1968).

Yeah, otherwise she would have only won the FO 3 times. But it's arkward to include a player but not all her wins. As she happened to have had played from old days to computerised system.

arcus
May 5th, 2004, 02:42 AM
Volcana, the reason seems pretty clear. They seem to have records starting from the Open Era (1968).
...and even then only results in slams are recored for a while....

Volcana
May 5th, 2004, 02:44 AM
I could get down with that. If any of you have sources for before that, excepting Lord God You, who's sources would be too lofty for me to even percieve, I'd be interested. And I have to admit, five career losses on clay seems pretty trivial. gotta be a hundred players with fewer than that. Take her off the list.

ys
May 5th, 2004, 02:46 AM
I'm sure your sources are impecable. Mine is the ITF.

http://www2.itftennis.com/PD/PlayerActivity/ActivityResults.asp?PlayerID=20003453&start_year=NULL&end_year=NULL&tourtype=A&datesort=A

For some strange reason, thought they have the assciation with the slams, and their records for Margaret Court go back to 1963, their database only lists her playing the French in 1969, 1970, 1971 and 1973. I'm sure you know better than them, of course.:)

You are, after all, Lord God You, and they are only the lowly International Tennis Federation.
And his sources are probably WTA. If you ever heard of such thing as WTA Media Player Guide, have a loook at it..

arcus
May 5th, 2004, 02:50 AM
I could get down with that. If any of you have sources for before that, excepting Lord God You, who's sources would be too lofty for me to even percieve, I'd be interested. And I have to admit, five career losses on clay seems pretty trivial. gotta be a hundred players with fewer than that. Take her off the list.

http://www.tennislovers.com/index2.htm?Content/french.htm

shows one of the final losses you doubted.......

charmedRic
May 5th, 2004, 02:53 AM
WIN LOSS RATIO STANDING NAME NAT TOURNS

.919 1 STEFFI GRAF 23 GER 261 199

.916 2 CHRIS EVERT 8 USA 87 75

.900 3 CHIN-WEI CHAN 1 TPE 9 31

.882 4 CHIA-JUNG CHUANG 2 TPE 15 37

.867 5 SHUAI PENG 4 CHN 26 35

.857 6 ANKITA BHAMBRI 1 IND 6 28

.850 7 MONICA SELES 25 USA 142 184

.850 8 NA LI 3 CHN 17 44

.825 9 JUSTINE HENIN-HARDENNE 21 BEL 99 113

.824 10 MARIA SHARAPOVA 3 RUS 14 30

.817 11 MARTINA HINGIS 21 SUI 94 148

.807 12 VENUS WILLIAMS 16 USA 67 111

.806 13 MAL-SIM PARK 6 KOR 25 28

.805 14 DINARA SAFINA 15 RUS 62 43

.805 15 JU-YEON CHOI 8 KOR 33 51

arcus
May 5th, 2004, 02:54 AM
whatever the # of losses in paris, 5 wins and a final puts her # 3 on the all time list ..........IMO

shap_half
May 5th, 2004, 03:02 AM
1. Evert
2. Seles
3. Graf
4. Sanchez-Vicario
5. Navratilova
6. Martinez
7. Henin
8. Sabatini
9. Hingis
10. Pierce

Declan
May 5th, 2004, 03:19 AM
As with the grass court listings, most posters seem to give added credence to post-1990 players. If you're going to talk about OPEN-ERA 'best ever' lists, read your history books please!

darrinbaker00
May 5th, 2004, 03:30 AM
As with the grass court listings, most posters seem to give added credence to post-1990 players. If you're going to talk about OPEN-ERA 'best ever' lists, read your history books please!
To be fair, Declan, those are the players a lot of us are most familiar with. If two players have similar records, which would you rate higher: the player you saw in person and/or on television, or the player you only read about? Besides, it's all subjective anyway, so chill out :cool: .

Volcana
May 5th, 2004, 04:38 AM
http://www.tennislovers.com/index2.htm?Content/french.htm

shows one of the final losses you doubted.......
Thanks. And my sarcasm was not meant to express doubt. I freely admit, I was wrong to doubt, even for an instant, the Lord God You. Not that you ARE the Lord God You, or even foolishly aspire to such a thing.

Philbo
May 5th, 2004, 04:57 AM
QUOTE=Volcana]Thanks. And my sarcasm was not meant to express doubt. I freely admit, I was wrong to doubt, even for an instant, the Lord God You. Not that you ARE the Lord God You, or even foolishly aspire to such a thing.[/QUOTE]

Whats that shit? You had your facts wrong, again, Volcana and they corrected you...No need to sulk and whine about the fact you were wrong, we all have been at one point or another...Its almost as if an immature poster has taken your username and started posting in a completely different style...???

Why is tommyk trying to be 'god' by having more information than what you find on the ITF website?, which we ALL know has holes in it.. Take a look at the head to head between Evert and navratilova on it for proof that they are missing information on a HELLUVA lot of matches that were real!

bello
May 5th, 2004, 06:33 AM
1. Evert
2. Graf
3. Seles
4. Sanchez
5. Navratilova
6. Henin
7. Sabatini
8. Martinez
9. Hingis
10. Pierce

bello
May 5th, 2004, 06:33 AM
1. Evert
2. Graf
3. Seles
4. Sanchez
5. Navratilova
6. Henin
7. Sabatini
8. Martinez
9. Capriati
10. Pierce

spencercarlos
May 5th, 2004, 06:56 AM
:kiss: Sabatini over Martinez as always :p

morbidangle
May 5th, 2004, 08:11 AM
1 Chris
2 Steffi
3 Arantxa
4 Monica
5 Martina N
6 Justine
7 Mary
8 Gaby
9 Martina H
10 Conchita

I wanted to put Serena at #8, but she doesn't have enough clay titles/ finals.

Jakeev
May 5th, 2004, 09:40 AM
As with the grass court listings, most posters seem to give added credence to post-1990 players. If you're going to talk about OPEN-ERA 'best ever' lists, read your history books please!
Interesing enough, you need to brush yourself up on some tennis history.

You complain about posters giving added credence to post-1990 players, yet do not consider the fact that the younger generation of players cannot help the changes of surfaces in events, especially the Slams.

Considering there is a lot to ponder, I think you need to think twice before lambasting people's choices.

Sonf@
May 5th, 2004, 11:56 AM
Evert
Graf
Seles
Sanchez
Navratilova
Martinez
Sabatini
Hingis
Henin-H

*Jool*
May 5th, 2004, 12:23 PM
I just have to say to some of you that not putting Martinez in the list of 10 ( and put for instance Capriati on the list) seems to be a little unfair...

Rollo
May 5th, 2004, 12:33 PM
If you want to learn about tennis past-join us here and have a Blast!
http://www.wtaworld.com/forumdisplay.php?f=59




Anyone interested in ALL the grand slam results can get them right here on the board. In the Blast From the past Brian Stewart :worship: , myself and many others have been putting together results from all the grand slams from the start.

Here is the slam section:
http://www.wtaworld.com/forumdisplay.php?f=108


And the French singles:
http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?t=25064

Andy T
May 5th, 2004, 12:39 PM
Evert
Graf
Seles
Sanchez
Navratilova
Martinez
Sabatini
Hingis
Henin-H

here are mine:
1) Evert - holds the record for most RG wins (7) and would have won more had the French not gone down the plughole in the mid '70s plus won 3 US Opens on clay. Has the incredible 125 win-streak from 73-79.
2) Seles - lacks the numbers of Graf and Court but we know why. She was definitely a better claycourter than Graf as shown by the final wins in 90 and 92 and the fact that she took Graf to 3 sets in 89 when just 15 and again in 99 when she was below her best.
3) Graf - although her numbers are inflated a bit, she still demonstrated her great ability on clay.
4) Court - won 5 titles (3 in the open era) beating many very good clay courters en route, including Evert.
5) Navratilova - the best serve-volleyer on the clay ever. 6 finals and 2 victories, only woman to beat Evert twice at RG (84 and 87).
6) Sanchez - would probably not have won in 94 had Seles still been playing but nevertheless clearly a great counterpuncher on the clay who beat Evert, Graf and Seles at RG
************
From here down, it seems impossible to rank them:
7) Hénin-Hardenne & Serena Williams: the best two players on clay at the moment.
9) Sabatini - became Queen of Italian and Florida clay after Evert.Fine wins over seles and Graf.
10)Goolagong - won the French at her first attempt in 71, finalist in 72. may have done more had she played the French between 74-82. Twice runner-up at the US open on clay to Evert 75-76. Won Italian open in 73 over Evert. Is one of very few players to have beaten Evert on clay more than once.

Very Honourable mentions:
Austin - great record at the family Circle Cup and won Italian open in 1979 ending evert's clay-court streak
Pierce - 2 RG finals, fine win over Graf in 94 abnd over Seles and Hingis in 2000.
Martinez - 4 Italian opens and a french final plus countless other titles on the clay.
Hingis: her failure to win RG keeps her off the list but she was a great claycourter.

Rollo
May 5th, 2004, 12:43 PM
Andy T knows his stuff:hatoff: . He's been working on a database that has all the finals the ITF doesn't include.

Ryan
May 5th, 2004, 12:47 PM
Hmm, it seems that many people are putting people on the list because they've won RG...but done nothing else on the surface.


I'll try my list, anyone who wants to pick it apart go ahead.;)

1. Evert
2. Seles
3. Graf
4. Court
5. Navratilova
6. Sanchez-Vicario
7. Martinez
8. Goolagong
9. Sabatini
10. Henin-Hardenne

Steffica Greles
May 5th, 2004, 06:26 PM
Smackie: Did you forget to add Conchita Martinez? She's surely the greatest player never to win the French Open, far more so than flash-in-the-pan Hingis whose career on clay was only successful 1997-2001.

Have you SEEN how many matches Conchita's won on clay? How many tournaments? 14 times in the last 16 or better at the French, first time in 1988. Semi-finals 1994,94,96 and finalist in 2000. Four times Italian Open winner, among her many clay court titles (1995 she won Family Circle Cup, Amelia Island, Hamburg and Rome, and led Graf in the final set of the SF at the French - should have won). Not meaning to make this sound personal :) , but I just can't believe how that woman gets overlooked. It startles me every time.

Please say your forgot :)

Zummi
May 5th, 2004, 06:54 PM
1. Evert
2. Seles
3. Graf
4. Sanchez-Vicario
5. Navratilova
6. Court
7. Goolagong-Cawley
8. Sabatini
9. Martinez
10. King

DA FOREHAND
May 5th, 2004, 07:17 PM
here are mine:
1) Evert - holds the record for most RG wins (7) and would have won more had the French not gone down the plughole in the mid '70s plus won 3 US Opens on clay. Has the incredible 125 win-streak from 73-79.
2) Seles - lacks the numbers of Graf and Court but we know why. She was definitely a better claycourter than Graf as shown by the final wins in 90 and 92 and the fact that she took Graf to 3 sets in 89 when just 15 and again in 99 when she was below her best.
3) Graf - although her numbers are inflated a bit, she still demonstrated her great ability on clay.
4) Court - won 5 titles (3 in the open era) beating many very good clay courters en route, including Evert.
5) Navratilova - the best serve-volleyer on the clay ever. 6 finals and 2 victories, only woman to beat Evert twice at RG (84 and 87).
6) Sanchez - would probably not have won in 94 had Seles still been playing but nevertheless clearly a great counterpuncher on the clay who beat Evert, Graf and Seles at RG
************
From here down, it seems impossible to rank them:
7) Hénin-Hardenne & Serena Williams: the best two players on clay at the moment.
9) Sabatini - became Queen of Italian and Florida clay after Evert.Fine wins over seles and Graf.
10)Goolagong - won the French at her first attempt in 71, finalist in 72. may have done more had she played the French between 74-82. Twice runner-up at the US open on clay to Evert 75-76. Won Italian open in 73 over Evert. Is one of very few players to have beaten Evert on clay more than once.

Very Honourable mentions:
Austin - great record at the family Circle Cup and won Italian open in 1979 ending evert's clay-court streak
Pierce - 2 RG finals, fine win over Graf in 94 abnd over Seles and Hingis in 2000.
Martinez - 4 Italian opens and a french final plus countless other titles on the clay.
Hingis: her failure to win RG keeps her off the list but she was a great claycourter.

No we don't know why...what we do know is Steffi won the french open six times...one shy of Everts record 7, she beat the top three players in the world @30, including Seles to win her 6th and final crown.


Evert is w/out a doubt the QUEEN OF CLAY

DA FOREHAND
May 5th, 2004, 07:18 PM
here are mine:
1) Evert - holds the record for most RG wins (7) and would have won more had the French not gone down the plughole in the mid '70s plus won 3 US Opens on clay. Has the incredible 125 win-streak from 73-79.
2) Seles - lacks the numbers of Graf and Court but we know why. She was definitely a better claycourter than Graf as shown by the final wins in 90 and 92 and the fact that she took Graf to 3 sets in 89 when just 15 and again in 99 when she was below her best.
3) Graf - although her numbers are inflated a bit, she still demonstrated her great ability on clay.
4) Court - won 5 titles (3 in the open era) beating many very good clay courters en route, including Evert.
5) Navratilova - the best serve-volleyer on the clay ever. 6 finals and 2 victories, only woman to beat Evert twice at RG (84 and 87).
6) Sanchez - would probably not have won in 94 had Seles still been playing but nevertheless clearly a great counterpuncher on the clay who beat Evert, Graf and Seles at RG
************
From here down, it seems impossible to rank them:
7) Hénin-Hardenne & Serena Williams: the best two players on clay at the moment.
9) Sabatini - became Queen of Italian and Florida clay after Evert.Fine wins over seles and Graf.
10)Goolagong - won the French at her first attempt in 71, finalist in 72. may have done more had she played the French between 74-82. Twice runner-up at the US open on clay to Evert 75-76. Won Italian open in 73 over Evert. Is one of very few players to have beaten Evert on clay more than once.

Very Honourable mentions:
Austin - great record at the family Circle Cup and won Italian open in 1979 ending evert's clay-court streak
Pierce - 2 RG finals, fine win over Graf in 94 abnd over Seles and Hingis in 2000.
Martinez - 4 Italian opens and a french final plus countless other titles on the clay.
Hingis: her failure to win RG keeps her off the list but she was a great claycourter.

No we don't know why...what we do know is Steffi won the french open six times...one shy of Everts record 7, she beat the top three players in the world @30, including Seles to win her 6th and final crown.


Evert is w/out a doubt the QUEEN OF CLAY
Graf
ASV
Seles
Court

irma
May 5th, 2004, 08:47 PM
here are mine:
1) Evert - holds the record for most RG wins (7) and would have won more had the French not gone down the plughole in the mid '70s plus won 3 US Opens on clay. Has the incredible 125 win-streak from 73-79.
2) Seles - lacks the numbers of Graf and Court but we know why. She was definitely a better claycourter than Graf as shown by the final wins in 90 and 92 and the fact that she took Graf to 3 sets in 89 when just 15 and again in 99 when she was below her best.
3) Graf - although her numbers are inflated a bit, she still demonstrated her great ability on clay.



Monica was good enough to beat Steffi in straight sets on rebound ace but in Paris we don't give Steffi any credit because Monica was suddenly below her best? :lol:
It was a totally fair match and Steffi was just a bit better on that day (as when Monica was just a bit better in 92)


This is not about who should be ranked higher or lower.
I have my biased opinion on that. I can't be objective when it is about clay. That's Steffi's fault;)

DA FOREHAND
May 5th, 2004, 08:56 PM
I love your sarcasm irma.

A simple look at career winning percentages on a surface will tell the story.

CJ07
May 5th, 2004, 09:11 PM
Anyone putting Serena in that list hasn't looked at her record. Besides those three Tournaments in 2002, Serena has NEVER reached a red clay final. In fact, before Berlin she'd never reached a SF!
Of course since then she's done well, but even with a FO and an IO, with only a handful of SF and two finals, that's just not enough to be considered one of the best clay courters of all time. Maybe a few years from now we could add her, but not now.

1. Evert

2. Seles
3. Graf


4. Arantxa-Sanchez-Vicario

5. Martina Navritalova
6. Conchita Martinez
7. Justine Henin
8. Gabriela Sabatini
9. Martina Hingis
10. Mary Pierce/Venus Williams*

*If Venus Wins the FO this year, otherwise Mary Pierce

DA FOREHAND
May 5th, 2004, 09:17 PM
Anyone putting Serena in that list hasn't looked at her record. Besides those three Tournaments in 2002, Serena has NEVER reached a red clay final. In fact, before Berlin she'd never reached a SF!
Of course since then she's done well, but even with a FO and an IO, with only a handful of SF and two finals, that's just not enough to be considered one of the best clay courters of all time. Maybe a few years from now we could add her, but not now.

1. Evert

2. Seles
3. Graf


4. Arantxa-Sanchez-Vicario

5. Martina Navritalova
6. Conchita Martinez
7. Justine Henin
8. Gabriela Sabatini
9. Martina Hingis
10. Mary Pierce/Venus Williams*

*If Venus Wins the FO this year, otherwise Mary Pierce

Where did it say anything about "red" clay only? Is 6 not greater than 3?

CJ07
May 5th, 2004, 09:20 PM
Where did it say anything about "red" clay only? Is 6 not greater than 3?
red clay green clay, blue clay

Serena is still not one of the greatest on the surface

DA FOREHAND
May 5th, 2004, 09:49 PM
red clay green clay, blue clay

Serena is still not one of the greatest on the surface
You're right, nor was I trying to make that claim. Serena wouldn't/didn't make my top ten list.

Declan
May 5th, 2004, 10:11 PM
Interesing enough, you need to brush yourself up on some tennis history.

You complain about posters giving added credence to post-1990 players, yet do not consider the fact that the younger generation of players cannot help the changes of surfaces in events, especially the Slams.

Considering there is a lot to ponder, I think you need to think twice before lambasting people's choices.


We're talking about clay court tennis greats here; Roland Garros - the premier clay court tournament - has always been played on clay. I find it mystifying that someone like Evonne Goolagong, who won the French on her debut there, and was finalist again the following year too, can be overlooked by some people in favour of someone like Sabatini, who was never even a Finalist.

baleineau
May 5th, 2004, 11:21 PM
1) Chris Evert
2) Monica Seles
3) Steffi Graf
4) Martina Navratilova
5) Margaret Court
6) Arantxa Sanchez
7) Serena Williams
8) Justine Henin
9) Martina Hingis
10) Venus Williams
I take it you've never heard of Conchita Martinez or Gabriela Sabatini then? :rolleyes:

rfs1999
May 5th, 2004, 11:26 PM
Go Monica!

baleineau
May 5th, 2004, 11:47 PM
here are mine:
1) Evert - holds the record for most RG wins (7) and would have won more had the French not gone down the plughole in the mid '70s plus won 3 US Opens on clay. Has the incredible 125 win-streak from 73-79.
Agreed. Evert 1st.

2) Seles - lacks the numbers of Graf and Court but we know why. She was definitely a better claycourter than Graf as shown by the final wins in 90 and 92 and the fact that she took Graf to 3 sets in 89 when just 15 and again in 99 when she was below her best.

3) Graf - although her numbers are inflated a bit, she still demonstrated her great ability on clay.
fed up of trying to compare these two. Yes, Seles lost out. Yes, Graf gained. Yes, Seles should have more RGs. Yes, Graf should have fewer RGs.......but becasue we can't say for sure, let's just go on raw numbers and say Graf 2, Seles 3.

4) Court - won 5 titles (3 in the open era) beating many very good clay courters en route, including Evert.
Disagree - Court dominated at a time when you could dominate on all surfaces if you were very good. It's still the case today to some extent, but not between the late-60s to mid-80s. I'd put Court at about 8th.

5) Navratilova - the best serve-volleyer on the clay ever. 6 finals and 2 victories, only woman to beat Evert twice at RG (84 and 87).

6) Sanchez - would probably not have won in 94 had Seles still been playing but nevertheless clearly a great counterpuncher on the clay who beat Evert, Graf and Seles at RG
I'd put ASV higher (at 4th), and MN at 5th. ASV won 3 Roland Garros titles, beating Graf, Seles there. Plus so many Finals, Semi-Finals at RG, and excellent all round performer on clay. Rarely failed to live up to her seeding.

From here down, it seems impossible to rank them:
7) Hénin-Hardenne & Serena Williams: the best two players on clay at the moment.
But still have a lot, lot more to do to. At the moment, both have the potential to be in the top-10, but they've only put together excellent results for 1-3 years on clay, and in Serena's case, it's been patchy.

9) Sabatini - became Queen of Italian and Florida clay after Evert.Fine wins over seles and Graf.
Yes, and really astonishing that Gaby doesn't have even a Finalist performance at Roland Garros to her name. Definitely ranks 7th in my view.

10)Goolagong - won the French at her first attempt in 71, finalist in 72. may have done more had she played the French between 74-82. Twice runner-up at the US open on clay to Evert 75-76. Won Italian open in 73 over Evert. Is one of very few players to have beaten Evert on clay more than once.
Similar case to Court - not a clay player, and too easy to win these events during this period if you were generally better than everyone else.

Austin - great record at the family Circle Cup and won Italian open in 1979 ending evert's clay-court streak
Pierce - 2 RG finals, fine win over Graf in 94 abnd over Seles and Hingis in 2000.
I'd go with Pierce for 9th place.

Martinez - 4 Italian opens and a french final plus countless other titles on the clay.

Not to mention her record at Roland Garros. For about 10 years in a row she seemed to be in the quarters or better. And of course, she won other major titles on clay multiple times (Berlin, Hilton Head). Roland Garros is the only that's missing. I'd put Conchita sixth, simply because her Roland Garros record is better than Gaby's.

Hingis: her failure to win RG keeps her off the list but she was a great claycourter.

Which in my view gets Hingis into the top-10 at 10th place.

Had Capriati cut the mustard elsewhere on Clay, she'd have a place in the top-10, but her 2 big wins were 'surprises' more than anything else. She doesn't play the clay very well, and won RG and the Olympics in spite of the surface. She just hit form at the right time and played the clay like a hard court.

Henin has the potential to go deep into the list within the next 5 years. I see her finishing with at least 1 more RG title, possibly as many as 3 more.

Clijsters has been very consistent on clay, but it's not her best surface by any means. She could make it, but needs more clay titles.

Mauresmo is comfortable on clay, and has the game to win RG, but is frequently too injured to compile a high number of wins.

Venus and Serena have improved a lot in the last 2-3 years on clay, but are still vulnerable to unexpected losses and some clay-court avoidance scheduling.


So.....

1. Evert
2. Graf
3. Seles
4. ASV
5. Navratilova
6. Martinez
7. Sabatini
8. Court
9. Pierce
10. Hingis

Knocking on the door: Capriati, Henin, Serena Williams, Venus Williams, Kim Clijsters, Amelie Mauresmo.

DA FOREHAND
May 5th, 2004, 11:51 PM
Serena def. knocking louder than Capriati...A case can also be made for Venus's knocking being heard over Jenns. as well.

Andy T
May 6th, 2004, 12:33 AM
Agreed. Evert 1st.


fed up of trying to compare these two. Yes, Seles lost out. Yes, Graf gained. Yes, Seles should have more RGs. Yes, Graf should have fewer RGs.......but becasue we can't say for sure, let's just go on raw numbers and say Graf 2, Seles 3.


Disagree - Court dominated at a time when you could dominate on all surfaces if you were very good. It's still the case today to some extent, but not between the late-60s to mid-80s. I'd put Court at about 8th.


I'd put ASV higher (at 4th), and MN at 5th. ASV won 3 Roland Garros titles, beating Graf, Seles there. Plus so many Finals, Semi-Finals at RG, and excellent all round performer on clay. Rarely failed to live up to her seeding.


But still have a lot, lot more to do to. At the moment, both have the potential to be in the top-10, but they've only put together excellent results for 1-3 years on clay, and in Serena's case, it's been patchy.


Yes, and really astonishing that Gaby doesn't have even a Finalist performance at Roland Garros to her name. Definitely ranks 7th in my view.


Similar case to Court - not a clay player, and too easy to win these events during this period if you were generally better than everyone else.


I'd go with Pierce for 9th place.


Not to mention her record at Roland Garros. For about 10 years in a row she seemed to be in the quarters or better. And of course, she won other major titles on clay multiple times (Berlin, Hilton Head). Roland Garros is the only that's missing. I'd put Conchita sixth, simply because her Roland Garros record is better than Gaby's.


Which in my view gets Hingis into the top-10 at 10th place.

Had Capriati cut the mustard elsewhere on Clay, she'd have a place in the top-10, but her 2 big wins were 'surprises' more than anything else. She doesn't play the clay very well, and won RG and the Olympics in spite of the surface. She just hit form at the right time and played the clay like a hard court.

Henin has the potential to go deep into the list within the next 5 years. I see her finishing with at least 1 more RG title, possibly as many as 3 more.

Clijsters has been very consistent on clay, but it's not her best surface by any means. She could make it, but needs more clay titles.

Mauresmo is comfortable on clay, and has the game to win RG, but is frequently too injured to compile a high number of wins.

Venus and Serena have improved a lot in the last 2-3 years on clay, but are still vulnerable to unexpected losses and some clay-court avoidance scheduling.


So.....

1. Evert
2. Graf
3. Seles
4. ASV
5. Navratilova
6. Martinez
7. Sabatini
8. Court
9. Pierce
10. Hingis

Knocking on the door: Capriati, Henin, Serena Williams, Venus Williams, Kim Clijsters, Amelie Mauresmo.

I disagree that Court and Goolagong should be demoted. For one thing as the tour was played even more on fast surfaces in those days, the clay court victories show a real all round ability. For another thing, there were plenty of excellent claycourters around in the 60s and early 70s - Richey, Turner, Durr and Jones to name but 4 - so I don't think it's true to say that they didn't have to face clay court specialists. It is immaterial whether Court and Goolagong are classed as clay court players or not - the fact is they both had excellent records on clay, especially Court.

shap_half
May 6th, 2004, 02:17 AM
1. Evert
2. Graf
3. Seles
4. ASV
5. Navratilova
6. Martinez
7. Sabatini
8. Court
9. Pierce
10. Hingis

Knocking on the door: Capriati, Henin, Serena Williams, Venus Williams, Kim Clijsters, Amelie Mauresmo.

I think Henin is poised to be AT LEAST on top of that 'knocking on the door' list. She's got four Tier I or higher titles and that's more than anyone else on that list and definitely more than anyone on that list who has won RG. I think that Henin is is even better than Pierce, Hingis, and Sabatini (I can't say about Court because I didn't really start watching tennis until about 96).

shap_half
May 6th, 2004, 02:19 AM
Serena def. knocking louder than Capriati...A case can also be made for Venus's knocking being heard over Jenns. as well.

Jenn has won RG.

If would rank the knocking on door list it would be

Henin
Capriati/Serena
Venus
Kim
Amelie (then only one not to make atleast the RG final)

*Jool*
May 6th, 2004, 02:31 AM
I totally agree with Baleineau and his ranking.

arcus
May 6th, 2004, 03:11 AM
Thanks. And my sarcasm was not meant to express doubt. I freely admit, I was wrong to doubt, even for an instant, the Lord God You. Not that you ARE the Lord God You, or even foolishly aspire to such a thing.



:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

What did I say?

(no more G+Ts for volcana.... :) )

spencercarlos
May 6th, 2004, 03:52 AM
Originally Posted by baleineau

Not to mention her record at Roland Garros. For about 10 years in a row she seemed to be in the quarters or better. And of course, she won other major titles on clay multiple times (Berlin, Hilton Head). Roland Garros is the only that's missing. I'd put Conchita sixth, simply because her Roland Garros record is better than Gaby's.
Well honestly just because of a fluke Roland Garros in 2000 where she beat none of the top players at the time won`t rank Conchita higher than Gaby on clay. Gaby has multiple wins over Graf and Seles on the surface, not to mention her wins over Conchita and Arantxa on this surface as well. I`m still giving thanks to god Conchita did not win it in 2000 it would have been very unfair, because the other players Pierce (who was cramping in the end against Hingis) beat from the Quarterfinals of RG would have routed Conchita.
The point is that Gaby has had better wins over the top players on clay than Conchita, period.

Andy T
May 6th, 2004, 08:06 AM
Agreed. Evert 1st.


fed up of trying to compare these two. Yes, Seles lost out. Yes, Graf gained. Yes, Seles should have more RGs. Yes, Graf should have fewer RGs.......but becasue we can't say for sure, let's just go on raw numbers and say Graf 2, Seles 3.


Disagree - Court dominated at a time when you could dominate on all surfaces if you were very good. It's still the case today to some extent, but not between the late-60s to mid-80s. I'd put Court at about 8th.


I'd put ASV higher (at 4th), and MN at 5th. ASV won 3 Roland Garros titles, beating Graf, Seles there. Plus so many Finals, Semi-Finals at RG, and excellent all round performer on clay. Rarely failed to live up to her seeding.


But still have a lot, lot more to do to. At the moment, both have the potential to be in the top-10, but they've only put together excellent results for 1-3 years on clay, and in Serena's case, it's been patchy.


Yes, and really astonishing that Gaby doesn't have even a Finalist performance at Roland Garros to her name. Definitely ranks 7th in my view.


Similar case to Court - not a clay player, and too easy to win these events during this period if you were generally better than everyone else.


I'd go with Pierce for 9th place.


Not to mention her record at Roland Garros. For about 10 years in a row she seemed to be in the quarters or better. And of course, she won other major titles on clay multiple times (Berlin, Hilton Head). Roland Garros is the only that's missing. I'd put Conchita sixth, simply because her Roland Garros record is better than Gaby's.


Which in my view gets Hingis into the top-10 at 10th place.

Had Capriati cut the mustard elsewhere on Clay, she'd have a place in the top-10, but her 2 big wins were 'surprises' more than anything else. She doesn't play the clay very well, and won RG and the Olympics in spite of the surface. She just hit form at the right time and played the clay like a hard court.

Henin has the potential to go deep into the list within the next 5 years. I see her finishing with at least 1 more RG title, possibly as many as 3 more.

Clijsters has been very consistent on clay, but it's not her best surface by any means. She could make it, but needs more clay titles.

Mauresmo is comfortable on clay, and has the game to win RG, but is frequently too injured to compile a high number of wins.

Venus and Serena have improved a lot in the last 2-3 years on clay, but are still vulnerable to unexpected losses and some clay-court avoidance scheduling.


So.....

1. Evert
2. Graf
3. Seles
4. ASV
5. Navratilova
6. Martinez
7. Sabatini
8. Court
9. Pierce
10. Hingis

Knocking on the door: Capriati, Henin, Serena Williams, Venus Williams, Kim Clijsters, Amelie Mauresmo.

Seles/Graf
The h2h on clay is 3-3 in matches but Seles leads 9-7 in sets won as
Seles won a set in every matchthey played on clay whereas Steffi was beaten twice in straight sets. These two are so close but on this surface I think Monica edges out Steffi.

89RG: Graf 63 36 63
90German: Seles 64 63
90RG: Seles 76 64
91Ham: Graf 75 67 63
92RG: Seles 62 36 10-8
99RG: Graf 67 63 64

Sanchez/Navratilova.
There is no great difference in their stats at RG: Sanchez has 3 wins, 3 finals 4 semis 3 quarters 2 2nd round defeats and one 1st round defeat in 16 participations. Navratilova has 2 wins 4 finals 3 qf, 2 4th rounds and a first round defeat (aged 37) in 12 participations.
They won about the same number of clay court tournaments and their h2h on clay is 2-2 (5-4 Navratilova in sets)

Mr_Molik
May 6th, 2004, 08:46 AM
Some of you must think this is the greatest clay courters of the last 20 years. To put players like Martinez, Sabatini and Pierce ahead of players like Margaret Court is crazy.
Margaret won 3 French titles in the open era (5 altogether) over quality opposition(including Evert), and won numerous other clay titles.

irma
May 6th, 2004, 08:54 AM
Seles/Graf
The h2h on clay is 3-3 in matches but Seles leads 9-7 in sets won as
Seles won a set in every matchthey played on clay whereas Steffi was beaten twice in straight sets. These two are so close but on this surface I think Monica edges out Steffi.

89RG: Graf 63 36 63
90German: Seles 64 63
90RG: Seles 76 64
91Ham: Graf 75 67 63
92RG: Seles 62 36 10-8
99RG: Graf 67 63 64

Sanchez/Navratilova.
There is no great difference in their stats at RG: Sanchez has 3 wins, 3 finals 4 semis 3 quarters 2 2nd round defeats and one 1st round defeat in 16 participations. Navratilova has 2 wins 4 finals 3 qf, 2 4th rounds and a first round defeat (aged 37) in 12 participations.
They won about the same number of clay court tournaments and their h2h on clay is 2-2 (5-4 Navratilova in sets)If only Steffi had a edge of 2 sets and a match right? (could not resist that;))

morbidangle
May 6th, 2004, 09:05 AM
If only Steffi had a edge of 2 sets and a match right? (could not resist that;))
:lol:

Andy T
May 6th, 2004, 10:49 AM
Graf fans put Steffi ahead of Seles on clay because she won 6 RG titles but imo Monica edges her out. Big deal; I can live with that.

irma
May 6th, 2004, 11:59 AM
Graf fans put Steffi ahead of Seles on clay because she won 6 RG titles but imo Monica edges her out. Big deal; I can live with that.
I can live with it too, but it has nothing to do with who won more sets;) (in that sense Sabatini is above Monica too because she won a set more) and Steffi is definitely ahead on hardcourt;)

my opinion has nothing to do with how many french open titles Steffi won either. I am just biased as I already claimed :angel:

raquel
May 6th, 2004, 12:26 PM
Graf fans put Steffi ahead of Seles on clay because she won 6 RG titles but imo Monica edges her out. Big deal; I can live with that.

I think Steffi deserves to be above Monica. There is nothing that would say over their career titles and clay court stats that says Monica is better. I know if Monica was not stabbed her stats would be very different, but after the stabbing she has not won at the French. She has lost to very good players - Jana, Hingis, Arantxa, Steffi, Mary, Venus and Nadia - but no title. Monica has won other clay titles since the her comeback but not at the biggest clay event. Steffi though won in 1987 and came back in 1999 to beat the top 3 players for her 6th French. I think that places her above Monica who has struggled in the Slams since about 1997/1998 to beat 2 or 3 top players in a row.

Andy T
May 6th, 2004, 12:43 PM
I understand your argument Raquel. There will always be this debate and people will be divided between those who say "yes but in 1993..." and those who say, "look at the results, not at the context". Though I have more sympathy with the former argument I'm not a megafan of either one in tennis terms; they were both great champions but for me both had glaring holes in their games. For me, Steffi wins hands down on fast surfaces but Monica edges it on the clay.

What happened in 93 is hard for Monica fans and hard for Steffi fans because there's always that bitter taste. It's such a shame.

raquel
May 6th, 2004, 12:52 PM
I understand your argument Raquel. There will always be this debate and people will be divided between those who say "yes but in 1993..." and those who say, "look at the results, not at the context". Though I have more sympathy with the former argument I'm not a megafan of either one in tennis terms; they were both great champions but for me both had glaring holes in their games. For me, Steffi wins hands down on fast surfaces but Monica edges it on the clay.

What happened in 93 is hard for Monica fans and hard for Steffi fans because there's always that bitter taste. It's such a shame.

I agree Andy, that's why I don't always like these kind of threads that much as we always have to account for Monica's stabbing and what if it hadn't happened. I think the realisation of what actually happened to Monica gets worse as the years go by.