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MrSerenaWilliams
May 4th, 2004, 11:47 PM
Much like the other post, what do you guys think about this list of Grass Court Goddesses?

Martina Navratilova
Margaret Court
Chris Evert
Steffi Graf
Serena Williams
Venus Williams
Lindsay Davenport
Martina Hingis
Jana Novotna
Pam Shriver

Foot_Fault
May 4th, 2004, 11:48 PM
I wouldn't put Serena ahead of Venus on Grass.

LindsayRulez
May 4th, 2004, 11:54 PM
Much like the other post, what do you guys think about this list of Grass Court Goddesses?

Martina Navratilova
Margaret Court
Chris Evert
Steffi Graf
Serena Williams
Venus Williams
Lindsay Davenport
Martina Hingis
Jana Novotna
Pam Shriver
I totally agree.

Steffica Greles
May 5th, 2004, 12:03 AM
Hingis? She didn't even play Wimbledon that many times, and in my opinion was a little fortunate to win in 1997. There then followed a semi-final finish, aquarter final, and two first round losses.

1.Navratilova
2.Graf
3.Evert
4.King
5.Venus Williams
6.Court
7.Goolagong
8.Novotna
9.Serena Williams
10.Davenport



Other mentions, though not quite as good would be:

Sanchez-Vicario, Mandlikova, Martinez, Shriver, Tauziat, McNeil, Garrison-Jackson, Hingis, Henin, Seles, Virginia Wade, Sukova.

LindsayRocks89
May 5th, 2004, 12:09 AM
Hingis? She didn't even play Wimbledon that many times, and in my opinion was a little fortunate to win in 1997. There then followed a semi-final finish, aquarter final, and two first round losses.

Navratilova
Graf
Evert
Novotna
Venus Williams
Sanchez-Vicario
Court
Goolagong
King
Serena Williams

Other mentions, though not quite as good would be:

Mandlikova, Martinez, Shriver, Tauziat, McNeil, Garrison-Jackson, Hingis, Henin, Seles, Virginia Wade.

whats wrong with you not mentioning Lindsay? :o but i agree with the original list, except that hingis in on the bottom

Andy T
May 5th, 2004, 12:10 AM
Navratilova
King
Court (don't forget the US and Aussie Opens were on grass till 74 and 87 respectively)
Graf
Goolagong
Venus Williams
Evert
Serena Williams
Mandlikova
Wade


Honorable mentions for Jana Novotna, Martina Hingis, Lindsay Davenport, Ann Jones, Conchita Martinez
Excludes: Maria Bueno (pre-open era)

Steffica Greles
May 5th, 2004, 12:16 AM
:) I realised before you posted that poor ole Linders had somehow been forgotten. I won't forget her 1999 smashing of Graf, though. Great performance, great tournament. She's 10th, I displaced Sanchez-Vicario (who is certainly 11th).

darren cahill
May 5th, 2004, 12:53 AM
so who on here is right? who wins?:shrug:

LindsayRocks89
May 5th, 2004, 12:55 AM
:) I realised before you posted that poor ole Linders had somehow been forgotten. I won't forget her 1999 smashing of Graf, though. Great performance, great tournament. She's 10th, I displaced Sanchez-Vicario (who is certainly 11th).

great :worship:

darrinbaker00
May 5th, 2004, 12:56 AM
Navratilova
King
Court (don't forget the US and Aussie Opens were on grass till 74 and 87 respectively)
Graf
Goolagong
Venus Williams
Evert
Serena Williams
Mandlikova
Wade
I agree with the players, but not necessarily the order:

Navratilova
Graf
Court
King
Venus Williams
Goolagong
Evert
Serena Williams
Mandlikova
Wade

1. I noticed that some people had Chris Evert ahead of Evonne Goolagong, and if Evonne had beaten anyone else besides Chrissie for her 1980 Wimbledon title, I would agree with them.

2. If Serena should win Wimbledon again this year, I'd put her right in front of her sister.

Jakeev
May 5th, 2004, 01:00 AM
I would place them this way:

1. Navratilova
2. Graf
3. Court
4. King
5. Evert
6. Goolagong-Cawley
7. V. Williams
8. S. Williams
9. Novotna
10. Davenport


Honorable mention: Wade, Haydon-Jones, Martinez(she is a champ after all) Mandlikova and Shriver.

Volcana
May 5th, 2004, 01:07 AM
You need to check the surfaces the slams were played on when each of these players won them.

It is virtually impossible for anyone but Court to be at the top of this list. The US Open and OZ used to be grass tournament too.

Steffica Greles
May 5th, 2004, 01:11 AM
Volcana: Thanks, and I hadn't thought of it like that, but surely if you consider grass tournaments as a whole (and even Wimbledon titles alone) Martina is still top of the list?

It's inconceivable that there's been a greater grass court player than Martina.

MAURO
May 5th, 2004, 01:21 AM
Much like the other post, what do you guys think about this list of Grass Court Goddesses?

Martina Navratilova
Margaret Court
Chris Evert
Steffi Graf
Serena Williams
Venus Williams
Lindsay Davenport
Martina Hingis
Jana Novotna
Pam Shriver
i think you forgot Sabatini -F in 1991 and a lot of SF and a title in doubles with Graf
in singles she is ahead of Shriver

Steffica Greles
May 5th, 2004, 01:23 AM
Mauro - you're right about Sabatini!! I wouldn't place her in the top 10, but certainly a very well earned mention!:)

Volcana
May 5th, 2004, 01:42 AM
Hana Mandlikova? Three open era GS singles titles on grass? How can she be any lower than #6?

faboozadoo15
May 5th, 2004, 01:44 AM
how can all these other players with mediocre results be mentioned (not those u place in your top 10, but the next on) without but one mention of monica? she's not been great on the surface and it's her worst and not in the top 10-- but she deserves being mentioned every bit as much as all the others who haven't won wimbledon.

Volcana
May 5th, 2004, 01:49 AM
It's inconceivable that there's been a greater grass court player than Martina.
They never played, but you had to see Margaret Court. The most dominant player over the greatest period of time in the histroy of women's tennis. Look at it this way. She won more GS singles titles on grass than Martina won total GS singles titles.

alextreiber04
May 5th, 2004, 01:53 AM
:shrug: I don't disagree with your lists, but Rubin is pretty damn close up there if she isn't in the top 10.

darrinbaker00
May 5th, 2004, 02:33 AM
You need to check the surfaces the slams were played on when each of these players won them.

It is virtually impossible for anyone but Court to be at the top of this list. The US Open and OZ used to be grass tournament too.
If the title of this thread was the Top 10 Grasscourters of All Time, I'd agree with you. Unfortunately, this discussion is confined to the Open Era, so I can't. Four of Margaret's 11 Australian titles, one of her three Wimbledons and three of her five U.S. titles came in the Open Era, giving her eight majors on grass (one more than Graf, three less than Navratilova). Here are the opponents for each:

MARGARET COURT
Evonne Goolagong (Australia '71 & '73, U.S. '73)
Billie Jean King (Australia '69, U.S. '70)
Kerry Melville (Australia '70)
Nancy Richey (U.S. '69)
Rosie Casals (U.S. '70)

MARTINA NAVRATILOVA
Chris Evert (Australia '81, Wimbledon '78-79, '82, '84-85)
Barbara Jordan (Australia '83)
Andrea Jaeger (Wimbledon '83)
Hana Mandlikova (Wimbledon '86)
Steffi Graf (Wimbledon '87)
Zina Garrison (Wimbledon '90)

STEFFI GRAF
Martina Navratilova (Wimbledon '88-89)
Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (Wimbledon '95-96)
Gabriela Sabatini (Wimbledon '91)
Monica Seles (Wimbledon '92)
Jana Novotna (Wimbledon '93)

Based upon what I think is better quality of competition, I still have to go with Steffi over Margaret. However, because Goolagong beat Evert and Navratilova back-to-back in Australia ('74-75) and Evert also won Australia twice ('82 over Navratilova, '84 over Helena Sukova), I have a new order:

1. Navratilova
2. Graf
3. Court
4. King
5. Goolagong
6. Evert
7. Venus
8. Serena
9. Mandlikova
10. Wade

If Venus wins Wimbledon this year, I'll put her back ahead of Chrissie. If Serena wins Wimbledon this year, I'll put her ahead of both of them. ;)

Philbo
May 5th, 2004, 02:43 AM
They never played, but you had to see Margaret Court. The most dominant player over the greatest period of time in the histroy of women's tennis. Look at it this way. She won more GS singles titles on grass than Martina won total GS singles titles.
What do you mean they never played Volcana?

Margaret Court, née Smith (Aus) - 5:2
1975 Australian Open QF W 6-4 6-3
1975 Chicago, USA F L 3-6 6-3 2-6
1975 Boston, USA SF W 3-6 6-1 6-4
1975 Wimbledon QF L 3-6 4-6
1975 US Open QF W 6-2 6-4
1976 Sydney, Australia QF W 6-3 6-4
1977 Los Angeles, USA SF W 5-7 6-4 6-4

Martina leads 5-2, granted Court ws past her peak, but I thought you were better with your facts than that...Or am I misunderstanding what you meant?

Rothes
May 5th, 2004, 02:49 AM
So Doesn't Doris Hart Get a Mention???

darrinbaker00
May 5th, 2004, 02:49 AM
Hana Mandlikova? Three open era GS singles titles on grass? How can she be any lower than #6?
Only two of Mandlikova's majors were on grass (Australia '80 and '87), and one of those was against Wendy Turnbull (no offense, Wendy). Three of Venus' four straight Wimbledon finals were against certain Hall of Famers (Lindsay Davenport '00, Serena '02-03) and one potential Hall of Famer (Justine Henin '01). Serena has won the last two Wimbledons. Evert won Wimbledon "only" twice, but she played in eight finals, four of those in a row ('79-82). That's why I have those three ahead of Mandlikova. ;)

charmedRic
May 5th, 2004, 02:51 AM
WIN LOSS RATIO STANDING NAME NAT TOURNS

AS OF: May 03, 2004

Singles Grass Court Career - Top 100

With 25 or more tournaments

1.000 1 URSKA VESENJAK 0 SLO 15 43

1.000 2 MEIKE FROEHLICH 0 GER 5 66

.923 3 MARTINA NAVRATILOVA 12 USA 143 149

.915 4 STEFFI GRAF 7 GER 75 199

.900 5 MAGDALENA KUCEROVA 1 GER 9 130

.871 6 SERENA WILLIAMS 4 USA 27 75

.857 7 CHRIS EVERT 7 USA 42 75

.844 8 VENUS WILLIAMS 7 USA 38 111

.833 9 STEPHANIE SAVIDES 1 USA 5 33

.818 10 MARIA SHARAPOVA 2 RUS 9 30

.800 11 MARIJANA KOVACEVIC 2 CRO 8 107

.800 11 ANDREEA VANC 2 ROM 8 219

.800 13 HELI BARGIL 1 ISR 4 29

.800 13 UNA BUSHEVITSA 1 LAT 4 27

.800 13 JENNY LINDSTROM 1 SWE 4 32

.800 13 LANA MIHOLCEK 1 CRO 4 37

.800 13 MARINA STETS 1 BLR 4 40

jean_genie
May 5th, 2004, 02:54 AM
Navratilova
King
Court (don't forget the US and Aussie Opens were on grass till 74 and 87 respectively)
Graf
Goolagong
Venus Williams
Evert
Serena Williams
Mandlikova
Wade


Honorable mentions for Jana Novotna, Martina Hingis, Lindsay Davenport, Ann Jones, Conchita Martinez
Excludes: Maria Bueno (pre-open era)
I'll have seconds of that list!

Rothes
May 5th, 2004, 02:56 AM
In No Particular Order...

Charlotte Dod
Blanche Bingley HillYard
Dorothea Douglass
Helen Wills Moody
Billy Jean King
Maureen Connolly
Martina Navratilova
Steffi Graf
Lousie Brough

And theres a toss-up over the other.

MisterQ
May 5th, 2004, 02:56 AM
Navratilova's defeat circa age 45 of a top 25 player in singles at Eastbourne doesn't hurt her case at all.... ;)

Rothes
May 5th, 2004, 02:59 AM
In No Particular Order...

Charlotte Dod
Blanche Bingley HillYard
Dorothea Douglass
Helen Wills Moody
Billy Jean King
Maureen Connolly
Martina Navratilova
Steffi Graf
Lousie Brough

And theres a toss-up over the other.
I see it said Open Era, My Mistake...then yes the List does Significantly Change ;)

darrinbaker00
May 5th, 2004, 03:02 AM
So Doesn't Doris Hart Get a Mention???
No, because this discussion is about the Open Era (1968-present). If we were talking about Top 10 All-Time, this would be my list:

1. Helen Wills Moody
2. Margaret Court
3. Martina Navratilova
4. Maureen Connolly
5. Steffi Graf
6. Suzanne Lenglen
7. Doris Hart
8. Louise Brough
9. Billie Jean King
10. Margaret Osbourne du Pont

Rothes
May 5th, 2004, 03:04 AM
No, because this discussion is about the Open Era (1968-present). If we were talking about Top 10 All-Time, this would be my list:

1. Helen Wills Moody
2. Margaret Court
3. Martina Navratilova
4. Maureen Connolly
5. Steffi Graf
6. Suzanne Lenglen
7. Doris Hart
8. Louise Brough
9. Billie Jean King
10. Margaret Osbourne du Pont
psst...Read the Post Above ;)

arcus
May 5th, 2004, 03:04 AM
You need to check the surfaces the slams were played on when each of these players won them.

It is virtually impossible for anyone but Court to be at the top of this list. The US Open and OZ used to be grass tournament too.

not sure about that....

see, kudos to court for winning all those grass court titles, but if martina navratilova, chris evert and later players never regularly played the usopen and australia on grass, cos the tournaments changed surface or weren't as prestigeous as they are now, thats hardly their fault.

Imagine is navratilova had played 3 of 4 slams on grass most of the dominating section of her career.....!!!!!

wimbledon is the mecca of grass and MN owned the place, so i think its fair for her to be grass queen. Ditto for clay and evert. Not to diminish courts all round brilliance

Declan
May 5th, 2004, 03:09 AM
I would place them this way:

1. Navratilova
2. Graf
3. Court
4. King
5. Evert
6. Goolagong-Cawley
7. V. Williams
8. S. Williams
9. Novotna
10. Davenport


Honorable mention: Wade, Haydon-Jones, Martinez(she is a champ after all) Mandlikova and Shriver.

Virginia Wade won three Slams on grass in the Open era and Jana Novotna and Lindsay Davenport each won one. How on earth do they rate higher? Most posters have given added weight to the more recent champions.

Philbo
May 5th, 2004, 03:09 AM
My list would be:

1) Martina Navratilova
2) Billie Jean King
3) Margaret Court (11 slams at the Oz open when not all the top players came out is why she is there)
4) Steffi Graf
5) Chris Evert
6) Goolagong
7) Mandlikova
8) Venus Williams
9) Serena Williams
10) Jana Novotna

Rothes
May 5th, 2004, 03:18 AM
Virginia Wade won three Slams on grass in the Open era and Jana Novotna and Lindsay Davenport each won one. How on earth do they rate higher? Most posters have given added weight to the more recent champions.
And tha fact is only a small amount of Posters have an array of knowledge on the older Era Players.

Jakeev
May 5th, 2004, 09:19 AM
They never played, but you had to see Margaret Court. The most dominant player over the greatest period of time in the histroy of women's tennis. Look at it this way. She won more GS singles titles on grass than Martina won total GS singles titles.
But she did not win more Grand Slams on grass than Martina in the Open era did and that is the topic of discussion correct?

I don't think this pooh poohing about who rates who on a list matters very much since a player like Steffi Graf ever had a chance to play on grass in various Grand Slams has her those who preceded her were able too.

Jakeev
May 5th, 2004, 09:25 AM
Virginia Wade won three Slams on grass in the Open era and Jana Novotna and Lindsay Davenport each won one. How on earth do they rate higher? Most posters have given added weight to the more recent champions.
Well is it Lindsay or Jana's fault they never had the chance besides Wimbledon to compete in a Grand Slam on grass?

I think not.

People take issue with records and who is rating who, but failing to consider that the later generation never had the chance to compete at a time when grass dominated Grand Slams.

azza
May 5th, 2004, 09:27 AM
Roberta Vinci :)

morbidangle
May 5th, 2004, 09:31 AM
1. Navratilova
2. Graf
3. Court
4. King
5. Evert
6. Goolagong
7. V. Williams
8. Wade
9. Novotna
10. S.Williams

bandabou
May 5th, 2004, 10:46 AM
In a few years when Serena´s busy winning her fourth or fifth Wimbledon title, this discussion is gonna be all mood.

curtbda
May 5th, 2004, 01:32 PM
I think Zina Garrison and Lori McNeil deserve some sort of honourable mentions...
And Gabriela Sabatini as well, if not places in the top 10.
All three had a few good Wimbledons in their career...and Gabby was 2 points from winning it!

SelesFan70
May 5th, 2004, 01:48 PM
Navratilova
Court
Graf
Billie J. King
Evert
Helen Wills Moody
Maureen Connely
Althea Gibson
Venus Williams
Mandlikova

Honorable mentions to:
Els Callens since Venus said she's one of the best. :o

MisterQ
May 5th, 2004, 03:50 PM
In a few years when Serena´s busy winning her fourth or fifth Wimbledon title, this discussion is gonna be all mood.

She'll have to get to 10 Wimbledon singles titles before it is moot. ;)

MLF
May 5th, 2004, 04:44 PM
1 Navratilova
2 Court
3 Graf
4 King
5 Evert
6 V Williams
7 Goolagong
8 Mandlikova
9 S Williams
10 Wade

baleineau
May 5th, 2004, 06:37 PM
No-one mentions Helena Sukova? Didn't she have a decent grass-court record? She was definitely very good indoors on carpets.

1. Navratilova
2. Graf
3. Court
4. King
5. Evert
6. Williams, V
7. Williams, S
8. Mandlikova
9. Wade
10. Novotna

Honourable mentions to Davenport, Martinez, Hingis, Sabatini, ASV, Garrison, Sukova and any other half-decent serve-volleyer that enjoyed a handful of QFs/SFs at Wimbledon as a minimum.

I won't put Seles in the mix because her Wimbledon record is way too erratic. She mostly looked uncomfortable on grass, did not adapt her tactics at all, and only had a fair chance when it played like a hardcourt. Being considered 'good' on a surface is not only about results - it's about being at ease and looking in control.

DA FOREHAND
May 5th, 2004, 07:27 PM
1. Navratilova
2. Graf
3. Court
4. King
5. Evert
6. Williams, V
7. Williams, S
8. Mandlikova
9. Wade
10. Novotna

No way Navratilova and GRaf aren't in top two!

emptyhead
May 5th, 2004, 07:33 PM
Why are people here placing players above other players? How many of you have actually seen all those players playing? Now I'm not talking about old archive footage 'when old tennis was crap' What are your assertions based on? I bet not one of these opinions are Humble