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Dolpho
May 4th, 2004, 10:15 AM
May be a thread like this has already been posted but I probably missed it. :)

I personally respect both of them. I just want to know the views on their best years(keeping the stabbing out). Seles ruled, winning 8 of the 9 GS she entered in her best years and so did Hingis having 97 as a dream year. I am not going in to stats here as I know that Seles would definitely come out to be the better one wrt stats(although Hingis has more weeks as no 1). The question is "Who do you think would have performed better, if we swap the best years of the two players?" i.e if Hingis had come in early 90's(at her best) do u think she would have got the same record as Seles and vice versa.

Doraemon
May 4th, 2004, 10:24 AM
I dunno who is the better of the two but I can say Hingis would have been more likely to win had they met at their respective peaks. Her game seemed to mach up very well with Monica's as their past meetings's results indicate. Of course Monica wasn't the same player she was when she was dominating the tour but still given Martina won those matches with ease, even if Monica had been 100% physically and mentally, I think Martina would have beat her.

Dolpho
May 4th, 2004, 10:32 AM
I do agree! Obvously we cant consider h2h as Monica has never been at her been best once she got stabbed but still I think Hingis has an edge on Monica!

Hardiansf
May 4th, 2004, 10:46 AM
Oh no! I think Seles is the better player. She was so superior before she stabbed when Graf, ASV, and Sabatini was still on their peak. You can't say that to Hingis when she was dominating the tour.

Crazy_Fool
May 4th, 2004, 10:46 AM
Hingis was better, h2h aren't everything, but that is some serious owning by Martina there.

Dolpho
May 4th, 2004, 10:49 AM
but let me rephrase the question, Hingis in Seles's era and Seles in Hingis's, at their best who would have grabbed more titles?

morbidangle
May 4th, 2004, 11:17 AM
Hingis at her best Vs Seles at her best

I think
On clay Seles wins in straight sets.

On grass Hingis wins in straight sets.

Indoors, I think Seles wins in three .

Hard courts, Seles in three.

And I am totally unbiased! not a fan of either player.. but in my opinion Monica at her best is better than Hingis at her best.

Maybe we should ask someone like hingis_seles, who likes both players!
* paging hingis_seles *

Hagrid
May 4th, 2004, 11:34 AM
yeah! it will surely be a tough choice for hingis-seles! imho considering the talent of the oppositions they had in their dominating eras, I think Monica had a tougher one!

sunnysideup
May 4th, 2004, 11:40 AM
Martina HINGIS (SUI) v Monica SELES (USA)

1996 Oakland Carpet (I) FR Martina HINGIS 6-2 6-0
1997 Key Biscayne Hard (O) FR Martina HINGIS 6-2 6-1
1997 Hilton Head Clay (O) FR Martina HINGIS 3-6 6-3 7-6
1997 French Open Clay (O) SF Martina HINGIS 6-7(2) 7-5 6-4
1997 San Diego Hard (O) FR Martina HINGIS 7-6 6-4
1998 French Open Clay (O) SF Monica SELES 3-6 2-6
1998 Canadian Open Hard (O) SF Monica SELES 6-4 3-6 2-6
1998 US Open Hard (O) QF Martina HINGIS 6-4 6-4
1999 Australian Open Hard (O) SF Martina HINGIS 6-2 6-4
1999 Canadian Open Hard (O) FR Martina HINGIS 6-4 6-4
2000 Indian Wells Hard (O) QF Martina HINGIS 6-3 6-1
2000 Miami Hard (O) SF Martina HINGIS 6-0 6-0
2000 U.S. Open Hard (O) QF Martina HINGIS 6-0 7-5
2000 W.T.A. Tour Championships Carpet (I) FR Martina HINGIS 6-7(5) 6-4 6-4
2001 Hopman Cup 2001 Hard (I) R2 Martina HINGIS 7-5 6-4
2001 San Diego Hard (O) SF Monica SELES 3-6 4-6
2001 Los Angeles Hard (O) SF Monica SELES 3-6 6-1 4-6
2002 Australian Open Hard (O) SF Martina HINGIS 4-6 6-1 6-4
2002 Tokyo Carpet (I) FR Martina HINGIS 7-6(6) 4-6 6-3
2002 Indian Wells Hard (O) SF Martina HINGIS 6-3 6-2
2002 U.S. Open Hard (O) 16 Monica SELES 4-6 2-6

Martina HINGIS (SUI) leads 16 : 5

Andy T
May 4th, 2004, 12:05 PM
Looking at the results by surface and by year:

Hard: Hingis 11: Seles 4 (sets 24/9)
Clay: Hingis 2 Seles 1 (sets 4/4)
Grass: Hingis 0 Seles 0 (sets 0/0)
Carpet: Hingis 3 Seles 0 (sets 6/2)

we see that:
Monica never beat Martina on a fast surface
On clay they were very evenly matched
In two years (98,01) out of the 7 years their rivalry spanned, Monica had a winning h2h against Martina.

Given that these stats cover Hingis' peak years and Monica's post-stabbing career, I'd say that Monica at her best would have taken out Hingis on clay and cement but would have had trouble indoors and on grass.

Volcana
May 4th, 2004, 12:36 PM
I am not going in to stats here as I know that Seles would definitely come out to be the better one wrt stats(although Hingis has more weeks as no 1).
Actually, if you discuss tennis rather than just singles, Hingis would probably have the edge, since she was also the best doubles player of her generation. She won (I think, I'm pulling this from memory) 7 GS doubles titles with 4 different partners. Monica rarely played doubles.

It's sort of like comparing Evert and Navratilova. If you stick to singles, the question of who was better is not easily answered. Once you talk about tennis, it's not even close.

tommyk75
May 4th, 2004, 02:38 PM
Man, did you guys even see Monica at her best? She was able to blow people away. She had unprecedented power off both sides, and she hit very few errors for how aggressive she was. Although she wasn't particularly quick, she anticipated pretty well, and she got to a lot of balls from sheer will.

I'm a big fan of Martina, but if they were to meet at their best, Seles would just have too much power for Hingis to handle. You can't compare pre-stabbing Monica to the post-stabbing Monica. After the tragedy, Monica simply wasn't the same.

DA FOREHAND
May 4th, 2004, 04:31 PM
May be a thread like this has already been posted but I probably missed it. :)

I personally respect both of them. I just want to know the views on their best years(keeping the stabbing out). Seles ruled, winning 8 of the 9 GS she entered in her best years and so did Hingis having 97 as a dream year. I am not going in to stats here as I know that Seles would definitely come out to be the better one wrt stats(although Hingis has more weeks as no 1). The question is "Who do you think would have performed better, if we swap the best years of the two players?" i.e if Hingis had come in early 90's(at her best) do u think she would have got the same record as Seles and vice versa.
97 wasn't Hingis' best tennis, only her must successful season, for many reasons. Martina of 97 wouldn't have faired so well in the early 90's. Hobbled grandam(Graf) was beating her like a stepchild in the late 90's.

My vote goes to Monica.

hewittrok
May 4th, 2004, 04:33 PM
agree for Monica.

hingis-seles
May 5th, 2004, 12:55 PM
Hingis at her best Vs Seles at her best

I think
On clay Seles wins in straight sets.

On grass Hingis wins in straight sets.

Indoors, I think Seles wins in three .

Hard courts, Seles in three.

And I am totally unbiased! not a fan of either player.. but in my opinion Monica at her best is better than Hingis at her best.

Maybe we should ask someone like hingis_seles, who likes both players!
* paging hingis_seles *
I'm here. :wavey: :hearts: :lol:

This is a really tough question for me. Both are HUGE favourites of mine. I'll try and be as unbiased as possible.

After a lot of deliberation on the subject, I would have to say that Monica Seles at her absolute best versus Martina Hingis at the peak of her powers would see a Seles victory. Seles at her best, in my opinion, has too much for Martina to handle. Monica at her best is mentally unbreakable, is Steffi Graf's forehand off both sides minus the wild errors, has a deceptive lefty serve (see 3rd set of Australian Open '93 final for details) and mind-boggling angles and the one thing that bothered Martina: Pace. Remember, Monica introduced power tennis.

Proof that people have short-term memories: Martina Hingis was a genius in 1997. You will hear people whine about how every female tennis player was injured/burnt out/recuperating/fat/slow/too young/too old while Martina dominated. Truth is, at her best, Martina Hingis is a genius. Yes, she cracked mentally during her biggest test. At her best, Martina was audacious, confident....bordering on cockiness and arrogance. It was brilliant. She would hit a drop shot from behind the baseline and then have this smirk on her face. She was exceptional and she knew it. The key to her game was confidence. She was an excellent mover and anticipated just as well as anybody else. She came up with shots most mortals don't even dream of making. She was a genius at exploiting Seles' lack of movement in their head-to-head. And that's where the key lies. Seles, was a much better mover before the stabbing. She had to cover up for the weakness in her game (limited reach) and one of the ways she did was good movement. She was no Graf or Sanchez-Vicario but she more than held her own.

Let me break it down:

Serve: Seles.

Return: Seles

Volleys: Hingis

Movement: Hingis

Mental Toughness: Seles

However, I think it would definitely go to three sets. Hingis at her best, is so creative, that if Seles came out firing and overpowering her, she would change it up, mix it up, do something. She wouldn't allow Seles to blow her off the court. Seles was very good when playing retrievers such as Aranxta. However, Martina wasn't a retriever and with all due respect to Aranxta, was a different class altogether.

In the end, no one really knows who'd win. If my life depended on it, I'd say Seles in three on any surface except grass. I'd pick Hingis in three on grass.

SelesFan70
May 5th, 2004, 12:58 PM
This is tough question because when Monica was playing "vintage Monica" tennis, she beat Hingis...in the end, though, I'd have to give the edge to Hingis. However, that 6-0, 6-0 win over Seles in Miami should have a huge asterik beside it since Seles was injured with a bum ankle. :(

Tompier
May 5th, 2004, 03:14 PM
Martina :) she is just better

DA FOREHAND
May 5th, 2004, 06:34 PM
"Proof that people have short-term memories: Martina Hingis was a genius in 1997. You will hear people whine about how every female tennis player was injured/burnt out/recuperating/fat/slow/too young/too old while Martina dominated. Truth is, at her best, Martina Hingis is a genius. Yes, she cracked mentally during her biggest test. At her best, Martina was audacious, confident....bordering on cockiness and arrogance. It was brilliant. She would hit a drop shot from behind the baseline and then have this smirk on her face. She was exceptional and she knew it. The key to her game was confidence. She was an excellent mover and anticipated just as well as anybody else. She came up with shots most mortals don't even dream of making. She was a genius at exploiting Seles' lack of movement in their head-to-head. And that's where the key lies. Seles, was a much better mover before the stabbing. She had to cover up for the weakness in her game (limited reach) and one of the ways she did was good movement. She was no Graf or Sanchez-Vicario but she more than held her own. "

I agree w/most of this, but unfortunately, when Martina had the most confidence,arrogance,cockiness, she wasn't the best player she could be. The Martina of 99/01 would cream the Martina of 97. When the going got tough, Martina got going. She showed very little guts and therefore gets little glory. I do miss her though, but as I've stated before...I started missing her before she even thought of retiring.

emptyhead
May 5th, 2004, 06:38 PM
Seles was stabbed? Well I never!
When they were at their peak no contest, Seles was the far superior player. And I should know, cos I know most things

vogus
May 5th, 2004, 06:42 PM
two of the most boring personalities ever if you ask me. Ever notice that's it's all the same people who are fans of both of them? Although i have a lot more sympathy for Monica, because she should have won 25 GS titles.

Nikola
May 5th, 2004, 06:42 PM
Hingis who? :confused:

fried_beans
May 5th, 2004, 06:51 PM
You gotta think that if Monica is playing well, taking hte ball early and hitting her shots, Hingis isn't going to win that one.

DA FOREHAND
May 5th, 2004, 06:53 PM
You gotta think that if Monica is playing well, taking hte ball early and hitting her shots, Hingis isn't going to win that one.


To see that matchup...check out 98 French Open match, and or 01 Acura Classic.

morbidangle
May 5th, 2004, 07:35 PM
I'm here. :wavey: :hearts: :lol:

This is a really tough question for me. Both are HUGE favourites of mine. I'll try and be as unbiased as possible.

After a lot of deliberation on the subject, I would have to say that Monica Seles at her absolute best versus Martina Hingis at the peak of her powers would see a Seles victory. Seles at her best, in my opinion, has too much for Martina to handle. Monica at her best is mentally unbreakable, is Steffi Graf's forehand off both sides minus the wild errors, has a deceptive lefty serve (see 3rd set of Australian Open '93 final for details) and mind-boggling angles and the one thing that bothered Martina: Pace. Remember, Monica introduced power tennis.

Proof that people have short-term memories: Martina Hingis was a genius in 1997. You will hear people whine about how every female tennis player was injured/burnt out/recuperating/fat/slow/too young/too old while Martina dominated. Truth is, at her best, Martina Hingis is a genius. Yes, she cracked mentally during her biggest test. At her best, Martina was audacious, confident....bordering on cockiness and arrogance. It was brilliant. She would hit a drop shot from behind the baseline and then have this smirk on her face. She was exceptional and she knew it. The key to her game was confidence. She was an excellent mover and anticipated just as well as anybody else. She came up with shots most mortals don't even dream of making. She was a genius at exploiting Seles' lack of movement in their head-to-head. And that's where the key lies. Seles, was a much better mover before the stabbing. She had to cover up for the weakness in her game (limited reach) and one of the ways she did was good movement. She was no Graf or Sanchez-Vicario but she more than held her own.

Let me break it down:

Serve: Seles.

Return: Seles

Volleys: Hingis

Movement: Hingis

Mental Toughness: Seles

However, I think it would definitely go to three sets. Hingis at her best, is so creative, that if Seles came out firing and overpowering her, she would change it up, mix it up, do something. She wouldn't allow Seles to blow her off the court. Seles was very good when playing retrievers such as Aranxta. However, Martina wasn't a retriever and with all due respect to Aranxta, was a different class altogether.

In the end, no one really knows who'd win. If my life depended on it, I'd say Seles in three on any surface except grass. I'd pick Hingis in three on grass.
I agree with what you've said, except the Martina Hingis is a genius part :p

fried_beans
May 5th, 2004, 08:27 PM
To see that matchup...check out 98 French Open match, and or 01 Acura Classic.Agreed, Hingis wasn't bad in either match.

Ryan
May 5th, 2004, 08:33 PM
Hingis wasn't at her best in either of those matches, Monica just played exceptional tennis.

It's really hard to say who would win a match with both at their best. Seles would be moving better and hitting slightly harder, but I think that Martina would have the mental toughness hingis-seles, just considering she's playing Monica. If it was Steffi though, Hingis would fold like a lawn chair. But she knows how to play Monica probably better than anyone on tour, and would read Monica like a book. No matter how fast Seles was, Hingis would just be that much more adept at disguising her shots and coming to net and taking the ball early. People think Martina doesn't like challenges. Hingis LOVES a challenge that she thinks she has a chance in, but will go out beaten before a match starts against players she knows she wont beat that day. Anyway, I'd pick Seles in 3 on clay, Hingis in 3 on rebound, Hingis in 2 on grass, Seles in 3 on hardcourt and Hingis in 3 on carpet.

faboozadoo15
May 5th, 2004, 08:40 PM
i think monica would win on anything but grass-- which is a tossup. martina also has inexplicable grasscourt losses, and it was her worst surface... she just happens to have a very nice wimbledon championship that i'm sure monica would trade one of her RG titles for. no offense, france ;)

just as monica took apart arantxa-- so should she hingis. althought hingis may be just a little better at some things than arantxa.


i really don't think there's any question. we've seen monica beat hingis at her best-- years after monica dominated...

faboozadoo15
May 5th, 2004, 08:41 PM
hingis in three on rebound? *gasps*

DA FOREHAND
May 5th, 2004, 08:48 PM
i think monica would win on anything but grass-- which is a tossup. martina also has inexplicable grasscourt losses, and it was her worst surface... she just happens to have a very nice wimbledon championship that i'm sure monica would trade one of her RG titles for. no offense, france ;)

just as monica took apart arantxa-- so should she hingis. althought hingis may be just a little better at some things than arantxa.


i really don't think there's any question. we've seen monica beat hingis at her best-- years after monica dominated...
Hingis just a little better than ASV? What are you smoking?

Hingis almost always destroyed ASV. She beat her so bad one year, she told someone she could have beaten her left-handed.

Ryan
May 5th, 2004, 08:53 PM
i think monica would win on anything but grass-- which is a tossup. martina also has inexplicable grasscourt losses, and it was her worst surface... she just happens to have a very nice wimbledon championship that i'm sure monica would trade one of her RG titles for. no offense, france ;)

just as monica took apart arantxa-- so should she hingis. althought hingis may be just a little better at some things than arantxa.


i really don't think there's any question. we've seen monica beat hingis at her best-- years after monica dominated...

You're on drugs. :rolleyes: Hingis does everything except moonball 5x better than Arantxa, and Seles never beat Hingis when she was at her peak.

faboozadoo15
May 5th, 2004, 09:00 PM
You're on drugs. :rolleyes: Hingis does everything except moonball 5x better than Arantxa, and Seles never beat Hingis when she was at her peak.
5 times better??? don't you think that's an exaggeration? anyway, i didn't mean it the way it came out. she IS a better version of asv BY being a little bit better at everything that asv did well.

and seles destroyed hingis when she had won 3/4 grandslams in a row going into roland garros, and again on a hardcourt later in the year in canada.
and she beat hger a few times in 2001 on hardcourts.....
where was hingis's peak?

i love hingis-- don't get me wrong... but man, are u clueless.

faboozadoo15
May 5th, 2004, 09:02 PM
Hingis just a little better than ASV? What are you smoking?

Hingis almost always destroyed ASV. She beat her so bad one year, she told someone she could have beaten her left-handed.
i meant just a little bit better at everything... sorry for the way that sounded. *apology*apology*
but when were asv's best years? surely not since martina was on tour... but anyways.. hingis was far better, i guess.

emptyhead
May 5th, 2004, 09:04 PM
Look! can we have closure here.

Seles is by far the superior player, end of discussion!

Anyone making a case for Hingis clearly knows nothing about tennis.

faboozadoo15
May 5th, 2004, 09:04 PM
Look! can we have closure here.

Seles is by far the superior player, end of discussion!

Anyone making a case for Hingis clearly knows nothing about tennis.
too bad i already gave u rep pts. lol

DJ Troll
May 5th, 2004, 09:06 PM
martina

fried_beans
May 5th, 2004, 09:10 PM
I just think the more powerful, riskier player would win because if tehy are playing well they arent missing many shots and they are always hitting winners.

fammmmedspin
May 6th, 2004, 12:45 AM
Depends on how you think Monica differed by 95-2001 from 89-93. Then you have to put Martina H up against the better model Seles. Was Monica really worse later - in all respects ? If you argue she is a poorer player how can you explain her successes after she came back? Had the other players declined even more than Monica? You might also look at how the people who beat Monica pre-93 fared against Hingis - they were playing worse or better by later in the 90s? I think the H2H may be telling you something - possibly about predictability, strategy, and anticipation.

croat123
May 6th, 2004, 12:48 AM
if hingis started playing in 1988 like monica (i think that's about when monica started) she would dominate...

if monica started in 1995(?) she would be a great player, but not as great as she was in actuality because the power players started arriving in 1997/1998

croat123
May 6th, 2004, 12:50 AM
but if you want to know whose career was better: monica, hands down

she has more big wins...

it would be closer had martina won rg because then she would have won a slam on all 4 surfaces while monica has never won wimbledon

fammmmedspin
May 6th, 2004, 12:55 AM
if hingis started playing in 1988 like monica (i think that's about when monica started) she would dominate...

if monica started in 1995(?) she would be a great player, but not as great as she was in actuality because the power players started arriving in 1997/1998
:) If Hingis and Seles had both been around in 88 I suspect Graf would have developed a backhand like Justine's and then war would have commenced.

"Topaz"
May 6th, 2004, 06:02 AM
:) If Hingis and Seles had both been around in 88 I suspect Graf would have developed a backhand like Justine's and then war would have commenced.This is a very interesting comment with a lot of anachronism in it, putting Steffi, Justine, Seles and Hingis all in the same time frame. Anachronism is the key fault line in these kinds of analysis and comparison.

Consider this: Molita developed Hingis's game based on the success standard established by Seles and the physical abilities of her daughter. When you're a pre-teen you can be inculcated with some very effective techniques to grow up with. Hingis's main goal and training was precisely to beat Seles. She knew if she could do that, she would be able to beat everybody else. And she succeeded. It was painful to watch, given at the time I was a Seles only fan. Now, how can you compare the best of Seles with the best of Hingis, knowing that Miss Swiss wouldn't have her game if Monica didn't precede her? I suppose you can but I see a paradox here.

There was another girl whose game was also tailored after Seles's: Venus. But a different coach sought to exploit different skills; besides, the physical abilities he had to work with were different as well. Venus's game was designed to beat the Seles standard. Venus did succeed in the end but not as quickly as Miss Swiss did, which would lead one to think Hingis's techniques were better. But that's another thread.

All in all, if I could stretch my imagination and consider Hingis could have developed her game before she and her mother saw Seles's and targeted it, and managed to meet Seles with that game back in 1992/93, hmmm... Miss Swiss would have won. Quite a mind stretch, boy!... Let me shake my head after such a twisted mind trip full of paradox.

Dolpho
May 6th, 2004, 06:49 AM
This is a very interesting comment with a lot of anachronism in it, putting Steffi, Justine, Seles and Hingis all in the same time frame. Anachronism is the key fault line in these kinds of analysis and comparison.

Consider this: Molita developed Hingis's game based on the success standard established by Seles and the physical abilities of her daughter. When you're a pre-teen you can be inculcated with some very effective techniques to grow up with. Hingis's main goal and training was precisely to beat Seles. She knew if she could do that, she would be able to beat everybody else. And she succeeded. It was painful to watch, given at the time I was a Seles only fan. Now, how can you compare the best of Seles with the best of Hingis, knowing that Miss Swiss wouldn't have her game if Monica didn't precede her? I suppose you can but I see a paradox here.

There was another girl whose game was also tailored after Seles's: Venus. But a different coach sought to exploit different skills; besides, the physical abilities he had to work with were different as well. Venus's game was designed to beat the Seles standard. Venus did succeed in the end but not as quickly as Miss Swiss did, which would lead one to think Hingis's techniques were better. But that's another thread.

All in all, if I could stretch my imagination and consider Hingis could have developed her game before she and her mother saw Seles's and targeted it, and managed to meet Seles with that game back in 1992/93, hmmm... Miss Swiss would have won. Quite a mind stretch, boy!... Let me shake my head after such a twisted mind trip full of paradox.
thats quite a good analysis! had Hingis come earlier, then Molita would have obviously tried to develop Hingis in a completely different way, but I think to have a game like Hingis, one really needs a lot of natural talent and brains and well directed coaching is an added plus, whichever way Molita coached her I think her basic skills still would have been the same. To add to the basics the coach did an anti-Seles training, which Hingis do you think would have been deadlier, same basics + anti-Seles coaching or same basics + anti-Graf coaching(had she come in 88/89)????

spencercarlos
May 6th, 2004, 06:57 AM
i think monica would win on anything but grass-- which is a tossup. martina also has inexplicable grasscourt losses, and it was her worst surface... she just happens to have a very nice wimbledon championship that i'm sure monica would trade one of her RG titles for. no offense, france ;)

just as monica took apart arantxa-- so should she hingis. althought hingis may be just a little better at some things than arantxa.


i really don't think there's any question. we've seen monica beat hingis at her best-- years after monica dominated...
In fact this is no true at all.
1)Hingis tecnically is a way more complete player than Arantxa was.
2)Monica beat Hingis in 98 during her 10 straight tournaments title drought from the then number one player in the world. At the French 98 Monica also was in her best shape ever since she came back after Hamburg 93.
also need to add that...
Monica beat Hingis in 2001 while Martina was on another 13 straught tournaments title drought, again from the player who was ranked number one from most of 2001.
and there is no need to mention...
How poorly Martina was playing and moving during the Usopen 2002, which marked her 5th win over Hingis.
So to be honest Seles never beat Martina at her best.

morbidangle
May 6th, 2004, 08:21 AM
This is a very interesting comment with a lot of anachronism in it, putting Steffi, Justine, Seles and Hingis all in the same time frame. Anachronism is the key fault line in these kinds of analysis and comparison.

Consider this: Molita developed Hingis's game based on the success standard established by Seles and the physical abilities of her daughter. When you're a pre-teen you can be inculcated with some very effective techniques to grow up with. Hingis's main goal and training was precisely to beat Seles. She knew if she could do that, she would be able to beat everybody else. And she succeeded. It was painful to watch, given at the time I was a Seles only fan. Now, how can you compare the best of Seles with the best of Hingis, knowing that Miss Swiss wouldn't have her game if Monica didn't precede her? I suppose you can but I see a paradox here.That is a good point. Melanie probably designed Martina to beat players like Seles, big hitters off both wings. We probably will never know what would happen if Monica at her peak plays Hingis at her peak. Seles was the hitter, Hingis was the craftsman. Although majority of people who have seen both the Hingis era and the Seles era would pick Seles.
The strange thing is, Martina's game was tailored to beat power players like Monica, and yet she had difficulty coping with the power players of her generation!



There was another girl whose game was also tailored after Seles's: Venus. But a different coach sought to exploit different skills; besides, the physical abilities he had to work with were different as well. Venus's game was designed to beat the Seles standard. Venus did succeed in the end but not as quickly as Miss Swiss did, which would lead one to think Hingis's techniques were better. But that's another thread.Ohhh that could be a looong discussion! :lol: I dont think it has anything to do with technique. Venus was a late bloomer, Hingis reached her peak early. And I think people can easily say the opposite, that is, Venus had the better technique since she was able to stay with the top players longer than Martina Hingis did.

All in all, if I could stretch my imagination and consider Hingis could have developed her game before she and her mother saw Seles's and targeted it, and managed to meet Seles with that game back in 1992/93, hmmm... Miss Swiss would have won. Quite a mind stretch, boy!... Let me shake my head after such a twisted mind trip full of paradox.Had Hingis developed her game BEFORE Monica started her domination, I think Martina probably would've ended up being a slightly better version of Arantxa. Martina never was a hard hitter, intelligent YES (probably the most intelligent player... And when I say intelligent, I mean ONCOURT ONLY :tape: ). She was kinda like Chris Evert, and if you take away Monica from the picture, I don't see how Hingis' game would've been better than what it was in 1997!

morbidangle
May 6th, 2004, 08:42 AM
thats quite a good analysis! had Hingis come earlier, then Molita would have obviously tried to develop Hingis in a completely different way, but I think to have a game like Hingis, one really needs a lot of natural talent and brains and well directed coaching is an added plus, whichever way Molita coached her I think her basic skills still would have been the same. To add to the basics the coach did an anti-Seles training, which Hingis do you think would have been deadlier, same basics + anti-Seles coaching or same basics + anti-Graf coaching(had she come in 88/89)????First of all Hingis' biggest asset was the way she used the entire court, and that was natural to her. Secondly, like I said had Martina come in 88/89 she would've based her game on beating Steffi and Martina. Martina had trouble coping with power and since before 88/89 there was no pure power player, I think Martina would've ended up being a better , more intelligent version of ASV, and Monica probably would've eaten her for dinner in 91-93 !

And Martina had all the anti Steffi coaching she needed. By 1990, almost every player knew how to beat Steffi THEORETICALLY.. but its one thing to have a game plan against Steffi and totally another to go out and actually beat her.. I think it was better for Martina to have someone like Seles before her, since it only pushed her game to be better.

hingis-seles
May 6th, 2004, 09:08 AM
I always felt there were two ways to beat Steffi.

1) Rush the net and attack. (Navratilova)
2) Blow her off the court. (Pierce and Seles)

Ofcourse, you needed confidence, belief, mental toughness, a great serve and lots of luck as well. ;)

The reason why I picked Seles was because Martina at her best(which I believe was 2000...and 2001 Australian summer only) had difficulty with the power players. And none of the current crop of Big Babes have the steely resolve of the Seles of old. It's still a toss-up and its not like Martina would not get her wins, but I think Seles would win more.

TonyP
May 6th, 2004, 01:29 PM
While doing fantasy comparisons is fun, it is a strange thing to do while ignoring the real world. In real life, Martina and Monica (two great friends off court) played each other 21 times in singles,(counting Hopman Cup.) Martina won 16 out of 21 meetings.

In 1996, Monica won the Australian Open, was the finalist at the US Open, and won four other tournaments. She was a top five player. She was a lot more than just a shadow of her former self. Yet Hingis destroyed her at the end of the year and went on to completely dominate their rivalry. Even into 2000, Monica was still a top player and Martina continued to win their big meetings.

So while it might be fun to compare, say Mo Connolly with Steffi Graf(two grand slam winners who never met on court), comparing fantasy results for Hingis and Seles is a little like comparing the results of Michael Schmacher with the results of say Damon Hill and coming away saying Hill was the greater driver. There is just too much imperical evidence to the contrary to support such a conclusion.

emptyhead
May 6th, 2004, 01:35 PM
Maybe if Hingis had been stabbed it would have been easier to compare the two players.

Bezz
May 6th, 2004, 01:41 PM
Maybe if Hingis had been stabbed it would have been easier to compare the two players.
Monica was never hampered by the actual stabbing when she got back to the court, it was her lack of physical fitness that stopped her from really getting back to the top, also players like Hingis, Davenport and the Williams had started to make a move and it wasnt just seles/graf there was a new mix of players. The stab was something like an inch deep, not enough to cause permanent damage to her back, it was mostly psychological reasons she didnt come back for so long.

DA FOREHAND
May 6th, 2004, 03:43 PM
"Consider this: Molita developed Hingis's game based on the success standard established by Seles and the physical abilities of her daughter. When you're a pre-teen you can be inculcated with some very effective techniques to grow up with. Hingis's main goal and training was precisely to beat Seles. She knew if she could do that, she would be able to beat everybody else. And she succeeded. It was painful to watch, given at the time I was a Seles only fan. Now, how can you compare the best of Seles with the best of Hingis, knowing that Miss Swiss wouldn't have her game if Monica didn't precede her? I suppose you can but I see a paradox here."

Too bad she overlooked Steffi, and counted her out, maybe she would have faired better in thier match-ups.


"2) Blow her off the court. (Pierce and Seles)"

Monica has never blown Steffi off the court, but the opposite can be said.

hingis-seles
May 8th, 2004, 08:13 PM
While doing fantasy comparisons is fun, it is a strange thing to do while ignoring the real world. In real life, Martina and Monica (two great friends off court) played each other 21 times in singles,(counting Hopman Cup.) Martina won 16 out of 21 meetings.

In 1996, Monica won the Australian Open, was the finalist at the US Open, and won four other tournaments. She was a top five player. She was a lot more than just a shadow of her former self. Yet Hingis destroyed her at the end of the year and went on to completely dominate their rivalry. Even into 2000, Monica was still a top player and Martina continued to win their big meetings.

So while it might be fun to compare, say Mo Connolly with Steffi Graf(two grand slam winners who never met on court), comparing fantasy results for Hingis and Seles is a little like comparing the results of Michael Schmacher with the results of say Damon Hill and coming away saying Hill was the greater driver. There is just too much imperical evidence to the contrary to support such a conclusion.
Tony, I am afraid I will have to disagree with some of your points.

Firstly, in 1996, Monica had shoulder problems for the entire season and played in pain during the Australian Open. After she lost to Majoli in the quarters of Tokyo, she did not play another tournament till Madrid in May, in which she also withdrew. Then, she suffered the earliest loss of her career at RG, falling to Jana Novotna in the quarterfinals. After winning Eastbourne, she suffered the earliest exit of her career at any of the majors, losing in the second round at Wimbledon to Studenikova. Martina beat her in Oakland 6-2, 6-0 in the fall and even Melanie said she was surprised at the scoreline. She said they expected Monica to do a lot more than she did. Monica did not play the Chase Championships in 1996 either. Seles has constantly suffered from injuries since her return. In 1996 she decided to opt against surgery on her shoulder and instead went on painkillers.

It must be added, that Martina played Monica many times while Martina was at the top, whereas Monica never played Martina during her own heyday. Truth is, something was stolen that day in Hamburg from Monica. For better or worse, she has never been the same person or player since. That must be taken into account.

hingis-seles
May 8th, 2004, 08:15 PM
Monica was never hampered by the actual stabbing when she got back to the court, it was her lack of physical fitness that stopped her from really getting back to the top, also players like Hingis, Davenport and the Williams had started to make a move and it wasnt just seles/graf there was a new mix of players. The stab was something like an inch deep, not enough to cause permanent damage to her back, it was mostly psychological reasons she didnt come back for so long.
While Monica's fitness levels were sub-par at best, she was also hampered by multiple injuries and had to take extended breaks almost every season. I think what affected her even more than the stabbing was the death of her father.