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"Sluggy"
May 4th, 2004, 09:37 AM
I hate to ask the question, but what is the deal? Right in the paper today is a photo of an apparently US soldier smiling behind the bodies of dead Iraqis. And to think I considered serving, and sometimes regret not having served in my nations military. What is the deal? And the papers say they were tortured, and forced men to perform homosexual acts and the like, and they were sodomized? what is the deal? these are professional servicemen and women? I mean I found it idiotic and disgusting when a marine put the flag ontop of the Saddam statute last year but this is ridiculous. And to think all of the honor and integrity that Bush wanted to restore, what a crock of shit... And all of the prayers and ideology etc that they start the day with, and then do things like this.

Bush gets the credit when the military does a good job, does he also feel the heat when American soldiers act like freaking Idiots?
:fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery:

rand
May 4th, 2004, 09:43 AM
"Saddam was a bad man and need to be removed, now at least the tortures will stop"
I can only say....o yes, the Iraqi people are much better off now :worship:


:rolleyes:

"Sluggy"
May 4th, 2004, 09:51 AM
"Saddam was a bad man and need to be removed, now at least the tortures will stop"
I can only say....o yes, the Iraqi people are much better off now :worship:


:rolleyes:

There are plenty of bad men that need to be removed. I am not addressing whether we should have invaded iraq. I am only asking what the f--k are my fellow country men doing humiliating, torturing, sodomizing etc. the iraqi people? This is what my tax money is going to? The US is a country that represents the belief in the rule of law. We are not supposed to be out there acting like barbarians, despite what our 'enemy' does to our soldiers. I am relieved that i didnt serve in the military. My guess is that there are a lot of Homophobic self righteous assholes in the military, and I was probably not unwise to stay away. I was not addressing the issue of whether the US should be there. More i was commenting on the attitudes and practices of individual soldiers.

:fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery:

*abby*
May 4th, 2004, 10:02 AM
i do not agree with this bahavior at all in any way but perhaps it is in retaliation for like when murdered americans bodies r dragged thru the streets for cheering iraqis or when 2 americans surrenders and gave up their weapons and were then shot and decapitated
jst a thought

"Sluggy"
May 4th, 2004, 10:17 AM
Yeah I know. But the United States is supposed to be based on the Rule of Law. Those actions are not compatible with our image as a beacon of hope for 'the poor, hungry, tired, huddled masses yearning to....", as is written on our Statue of Liberty.

*abby*
May 4th, 2004, 10:22 AM
ok fair enough :kiss:

azza
May 4th, 2004, 10:55 AM
the answer lies in the title: America.

"Sluggy"
May 4th, 2004, 11:29 AM
heres a blury picture for you.

Colin B
May 4th, 2004, 11:39 AM
Yeah I know. But the United States is supposed to be based on the Rule of Law. Those actions are not compatible with our image as a beacon of hope for 'the poor, hungry, tired, huddled masses yearning to....", as is written on our Statue of Liberty.
It's a sad fact of life, Paul, that in every society, there is an element that is capable of acts of extreme brutality. We usually consider them to be sadistic criminals and lock them up in prisons and mental institutions.

But sometimes, these people can be useful to us. Sometimes we require our young men (mostly) to kill, maim, mutilate, set alight, blow to smithereens and otherwise be pretty mean towards; our enemies. In order for them to do this efficiently and unquestioningly, any trace of 'squeemishness', any moral scruples must be removed from their mindset. We turn them into 'mean, lean killing machines'. Grrrrr! :mad:

Now instill a sense of devotion to (insert your own highest standard - God, The Flag, The American Way) and an absolute hatred for (insert you current enemy's defining characteristics - communists, terrorists, his nationality or religious persuasion) and you have youself the perfect soldier.

In short, we create brutal killers. My question is: Why are we so surprised when they act this way?

:confused:

Another question is: What do you do with them when you don't want them to go around killing people anymore? They have fulfilled their purpose, done their duty for us and we expect them to fit right back into 'normal' society - stacking shelves at WalMart/LeClerque(sp)/Sainsbury's - without showing any signs of their former selves. Food for thought!!


:)

"Sluggy"
May 4th, 2004, 11:53 AM
The majority of soldiers i doubt would do this. Id have to think its a minority. but cant they do a better job of weeding these guys out? They spend so much time trying to figure out who is or has been gay, if you ever smoked a joint, yada yada ya, but not trying to figure out who are the real bad eggs. I dont know if this behavior comes from above, or if its just a few individuals acting on their own.

rand
May 4th, 2004, 12:04 PM
Yeah I know. But the United States is supposed to be based on the Rule of Law. Those actions are not compatible with our image as a beacon of hope for 'the poor, hungry, tired, huddled masses yearning to....", as is written on our Statue of Liberty.
as Lou Reed put it: " "give me your tired your poor to piss on",that's what the statue of bigotry says"

Colin B
May 4th, 2004, 12:50 PM
The majority of soldiers i doubt would do this. Id have to think its a minority. but cant they do a better job of weeding these guys out? They spend so much time trying to figure out who is or has been gay, if you ever smoked a joint, yada yada ya, but not trying to figure out who are the real bad eggs. I dont know if this behavior comes from above, or if its just a few individuals acting on their own.To answer that, I'll tell you about this bloke I know.
He's an ex-soldier (SAS) who now works as a nightclub bouncer and he is built like the proverbial brick shit-house - as hard as they come.
He has a video at home of which he is very proud - cctv footage of him beating up three bikers who attacked him with an iron bar outside the nightclub, putting two of them in A&E in the process (the third ran away).

But do you know who this guy hates to let into his club? - In his own words, "Poofs and hippies".
Yep! This guy is not in the lest bit scared of being attacked with an iron bar, yet he feels his whole world is threatened by two of the least harmful groups in society. Lots of people in the Police force are the same.

Why? Because violence is something they are trained to deal with. It's something they know about, something they grew up dealing with, whereas being 'sensitive' and/or having feelings towards other men is not in their mindset.

However you look at it, the army needs, tough (as they see it) people who are capable of following a direct order to kill! Yes, there are times when a soldier is required to be humane - rescuing victims of natural disasters, deploying aid to areas of famine etc - but in war, their main role is to be brutal towards the enemy. Sadly, a minority extend take this to extremes, even after the enemy has been captured.

*

"Sluggy"
May 4th, 2004, 01:35 PM
What does Proof mean? boy Im glad i stayed out of the military. Theyd have had a good time with a 'good liberal boy like me....'

Tratree
May 4th, 2004, 04:15 PM
Nice way to generalize there. That prison stuff is involving one unit of soldiers out of how many thousands and thousands who are serving. Oh yeah, I forgot....all Americans are evil.

Colin B
May 4th, 2004, 05:39 PM
What does Proof mean?Poof! (or 'poofta') - In England it's like the American English '******'. A male homosexual.

;)

kiwifan
May 4th, 2004, 06:09 PM
To answer that, I'll tell you about this bloke I know.
He's an ex-soldier (SAS) who now works as a nightclub bouncer and he is built like the proverbial brick shit-house - as hard as they come.
He has a video at home of which he is very proud - cctv footage of him beating up three bikers who attacked him with an iron bar outside the nightclub, putting two of them in A&E in the process (the third ran away).

But do you know who this guy hates to let into his club? - In his own words, "Poofs and hippies".
Yep! This guy is not in the lest bit scared of being attacked with an iron bar, yet he feels his whole world is threatened by two of the least harmful groups in society. Lots of people in the Police force are the same.

Why? Because violence is something they are trained to deal with. It's something they know about, something they grew up dealing with, whereas being 'sensitive' and/or having feelings towards other men is not in their mindset.

However you look at it, the army needs, tough (as they see it) people who are capable of following a direct order to kill! Yes, there are times when a soldier is required to be humane - rescuing victims of natural disasters, deploying aid to areas of famine etc - but in war, their main role is to be brutal towards the enemy. Sadly, a minority extend take this to extremes, even after the enemy has been captured.



*
I couldn't give you rep (gotta spread it around :rolleyes: ), just wanted to thank you for rising above the ignorant Yank bashing in this thread.

;)

Ballbuster
May 4th, 2004, 08:35 PM
Because of that tragic behavior. Hundreds more American Military men will Die. They have gave the Arabs substantial proof to continue blowing themselves up and taking Americans with them.

Rocketta
May 4th, 2004, 08:43 PM
Nice way to generalize there. That prison stuff is involving one unit of soldiers out of how many thousands and thousands who are serving. Oh yeah, I forgot....all Americans are evil.
how could you forget a little thing like that? ;)

njguido11
May 4th, 2004, 10:11 PM
Give me a break ballbuster, you honestly think that the arabs need any extra reason to attack us. They are taught from day 1 and through out their lives to hate us.and nothing we do will change that fact. I dont see americans dragging bodies through the street and having fuckin parades. so everyone needs to get over ur liberal selves and open your eyes. I dont see us using children as our weapons cause are soldiers would go to help them and blowing them up. wake up

Ballbuster
May 4th, 2004, 10:19 PM
Give me a break ballbuster, you honestly think that the arabs need any extra reason to attack us. They are taught from day 1 and through out their lives to hate us.and nothing we do will change that fact. I dont see americans dragging bodies through the street and having fuckin parades. so everyone needs to get over ur liberal selves and open your eyes. I dont see us using children as our weapons cause are soldiers would go to help them and blowing them up. wake up

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Americans have a higher standard of ethics. This is just mind boggeling. This not how we do business, (well, not get caught). Nonetheless, this is a terrible credibility issue. Regardless of what you say, this is exceedingly damaging.

flyingmachine
May 4th, 2004, 10:22 PM
Read the book 'Lord of the Flies' that should give you food of thought on the dark side of human nature. :devil: I think things like that will always happen because violence and power always been a part of the human nature.

ptkten
May 4th, 2004, 10:31 PM
The difference between before we invaded Iraq and after, is that the American government is now doing something about the problem, and investigating and punishing those involved, which certainly did not happen when Saddam Hussein was in power.

and Azza, give me a break, I can only imagine what you would say if I made a sweeping generalization about Australia :rolleyes:

harloo
May 4th, 2004, 11:16 PM
Updated: 11:22 AM EDT
More Iraqis Allege Abuse by U.S. Military
By Ghaith Abdul-Ahad, Reuters



ABU GHRAIB, Iraq (May 4) - With six American soldiers reprimanded and six others facing criminal charges, Iraq's prisoner abuse scandal spread Tuesday as more Iraqis came forward to allege inhumane by U.S. troops.

"If the Americans ever come back to detain me I will commit suicide before I am taken to this place again," said Sha'aban al-Janabi, a former prisoner, said as he pointed at the notorious Abu Ghraib jail on the outskirts of Baghdad.

Janabi, seized last December near Falluja and accused of participating in attacks on U.S. forces, said he was beaten frequently during the 25 days he spent inside Abu Ghraib before being set free in farmland on the outskirts of Falluja.

"I was blindfolded and handcuffed, we were dumped outside on a gravel yard for 10 days, we were given one bottle of water all day for cleaning and drinking," he said on returning to the jail to look for relatives who were arrested with him but are still being held.

On the flat scrubland outside Abu Ghraib, where tens of thousands of people are believed to have been tortured and put to death under Saddam Hussein, dozens of men and women now gather each day hoping for news of relatives seized by America.

Reports of alleged prisoner abuse inside, first broadcast on American television and later around the world, have reached them too. So have the pictures of naked men piled on each other in front of their laughing American captors and of a hooded man with wires attached to his body.

President Bush has told his defense secretary to take "strong actions" against those responsible and find out if the problem was more widespread.

OTHER PRISONS WORSE, IRAQIS SAY

Some Iraqis say Abu Ghraib is something of a sanctuary compared with what happens in other U.S.-run prisons around the country, though none of the claims by former prisoners could be independently verified.

Abdullah al-Dulaimi, who was standing outside Abu Ghraib trying to get information about two brothers detained there, said he had been held in a detention center near the border with Syria for a month in January.

He said he was put in something called the "coffin," a wooden box too short to stand up in, for two days. He was frequently beaten and had electrical wires attached to his penis, he said.

"We were beaten, deprived of sleep and humiliated. If you ever talked to the prisoner next to you, you would have to do push-ups with a soldier standing on your back. They made us stand naked and then a soldier would come beat us with a stick and sometimes sodomize us with the stick," he said.

He said his two brothers were now being held in Abu Grhraib. "It's good they are detained here," he said, describing Abu Ghraib as "the prison of mercy compared to the place I was detained in."

The U.S. military said it could not rule out launching further investigations into prisoner abuse in Iraq if credible claims by former and current prisoners were raised.

"At the moment we have six officers who've been reprimanded and six more who face a court-martial and we're going to get to the bottom of those investigations," said Lt.-Col. Dan Williams, a U.S. army spokesman in Baghdad.

"But it's not a closed book by any means. If further investigations are needed, they will happen."

Despite such assurances, relatives at Abu Ghraib remained concerned for family members being held inside, fearing that some of the same abuses might have been carried out on them.

"They arrested my son six months ago. I have been coming here almost every day and I haven't see him yet," said Jasim Khalaf Abid, a farmer in his sixties from the town of Balad, about 50 miles north of Baghdad.



05/04/04 10:57 ET

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harloo
May 4th, 2004, 11:25 PM
Maryland Community Appalled by Abuse Photos
By DAVID DISHNEAU, AP



CUMBERLAND, Md. (May 4) - Photos of Iraqi prisoners being abused by grinning U.S. troops have horrified many around the world, not least those in this community who cheered on some of the same soldiers before they deployed.

"I was appalled by the pictures," said Becky McClarran-Mizak, mother of Spc. Daniel Mizak. Her son, who had worked as a prisoner escort in the unit, is not among those under investigation.


Six soldiers in the Cumberland-based 372nd Military Police Company were charged in March with physical and sexual abuse of 20 prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad.

Families of some of those charged say their loved ones were following orders and have been treated unfairly. Staff Sgt. Ivan L. "Chip" Frederick II "never did do anything to hurt anyone," said his wife, Martha, of Buckingham, Va.

Daniel Sivits, of Hyndman, Pa., said his son, Spc. Jeremy C. Sivits, 24, who faces a possible court-martial, wasn't prepared for prison-guard duty. "Jeremy is not a trained MP. He is a trained wheeled-vehicle mechanic," he said.

The photographs, apparently taken last year, show members of the 372nd grinning, clowning and giving thumbs-up signs beside naked, hooded prisoners posed in humiliating positions. CBS aired the images last week.

The 372nd, a source of pride for this western Maryland city, had been showered with love during rallies on the downtown pedestrian mall. Reservists' photographs were displayed at Wal-Mart and inside a courthouse.

Spc. Rodney Bird, 24, of Oakland, Md., worked at the Iraq prison but is not charged. His wife, Jennifer, 23, said the actions of a few have disgraced the unit.

"I think it's awful that they're over there supposed to be doing their jobs and they're treating those people like that. I think it's very bad," she said.

But McClarran-Mizak said the 372nd deserves the community's continued support.

"Do I think anybody should be humiliated? No, I don't. I wish it would have never happened," she said. "But there were 164 soldiers sent over there and there were not 164 soldiers involved in that incident."

The disturbing photos also prompted defense contractor CACI International to begin investigating whether any of its employees acted improperly, even though the company says it has no information that is the case.

An Army report provided to The New Yorker magazine identifies two CACI employees as being "either directly or indirectly responsible for the abuse at Abu Ghraib."

CACI President and chief executive J.P. "Jack" London said Monday that one of the two employees cited in the report has no connection to Arlington, Va.-based CACI. London declined to discuss specific names, citing security concerns.



05/04/04 05:03 EDT

Copyright 2004 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.

Rocketta
May 4th, 2004, 11:30 PM
Daniel Sivits, of Hyndman, Pa., said his son, Spc. Jeremy C. Sivits, 24, who faces a possible court-martial, wasn't prepared for prison-guard duty. "Jeremy is not a trained MP. He is a trained wheeled-vehicle mechanic," he said.
Umm, they needed to train your son not to humiliate a prisoner? :scratch: Ah, Pops me thinks that was your job and you are the one that failed...if your looking for blame...:(

disposablehero
May 5th, 2004, 03:56 AM
There's 200,00 of them, that's what's wrong. You can't assemble 200,000 people without having a fairly substantial number of depraved idiots.

rand
May 5th, 2004, 10:08 AM
do we really? or is it what we've hypocritically portrayed for the rest of the world to believe? or is it perhaps just the fairy tale world that many americans believe we all seem to live in?

This is just mind boggeling. This not how we do business

you really need to get out more.

Nonetheless, this is a terrible credibility issue. Regardless of what you say, this is exceedingly damaging.

i agree.
I also think it's the only real problem....if this "higher ethics" fairy tale wouldn't have been created probably people wouldn't mind that much about facts that indeed happen in every war, or even that war itself....I mean if they'd have said (like you did for example) that it was a war being fought for your own intrests, people wouldn't really have mind I think....
now the same....when something really disgusting happens to US troops the government starts using double standards....
which is absolutely normal, but then don't put yourself as "the good fighting a clinica war lagainst the axis of evil".....well, you can but then remove the "clinical"
Am I wrong?

Colin B
May 5th, 2004, 10:09 AM
colin, we've had cases here in the states where these soldiers come home from active duty and end up killing their wives, children and themselves. so it's apparent that some cannot fit right back into 'normal' society. so...to answer your question about what to do with them...well, they often end up in prison. normal society has no place for those who cannot readjust themselves. in short, many of this type, if not for the army, would be in prison anyway for one thing or another. much like many pro athletes.

it's the man that is the problem. not the army.It's a universal problem, Bri and to 'play devil's advocate', it's kind of understandable. We take a mixed-up young man (who in some cases may not be all that bright), we structure his life around training and following orders, build him up to be 'Rambo', hone his mind into that of a killer, then when his usefulness as a psychopath is over, we pin a medal on his chest and say, "Good job son, now you're on your own".

The only answer is for the army to take responsibility for 'de-programming' what they have created but that, as we know, is not included in the defence budget.

:)

rand
May 5th, 2004, 10:27 AM
beautiful post :)
even though of course the contents aren't, but I'm afraid you're right....
the only problem now is of course all the hatred it generates....how to deal with that?

rand
May 5th, 2004, 10:40 AM
thank you. :)

how to deal with the hatred? well, after 9/11 many americans felt that the only way to deal with the hatred is to go to war. that is what's happening now. the truth is, the hatred for us existed long before these pictures came to light. the only thing that these pictures have accomplished is to solidify within the minds of our enemies that yes...we in fact are the spawns of the devil. these pictures merely add proof to the pudding. but the ingredients were already in the mixing bowl. it's going to be very interesting to observe the political maneuvering that is going to take place in an effort to somehow fix this.
I know this of course.... was speaking of the hatred more generally being created by the actions, not necessarily the pictures of torture, that's indeed only solidifying....
but I think you even answered that more general question in a way.... how can you keep such a clear mind on such an hour? :worship:

rand
May 5th, 2004, 10:55 AM
:lol:
I used to be too, but this week-end (well thursday night) I went out again till 6 am and I needed the whole week-end to (to some point at least) get well again....I'm getting old too soon .... :lol:

Colin B
May 5th, 2004, 10:58 AM
http://cdn.digitalcity.com/aoluk_articles/0e/00/20040505024509990002.40988d9c-003cb-05a45-400cbb49
Mr Bush is giving 10-minute interviews to two Arab TV channels to say the treatment of Iraqi inmates was 'unacceptable'




Bush Appeals to Arabs in Abuse Scandals

US President George Bush is speaking directly to the Arab world today in a bid to blunt the damage caused by the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandals.
Mr Bush is giving 10-minute interviews to two Arab TV channels to deliver the message that the treatment of Iraqi inmates was "unacceptable", his spokesman said.

"This is an opportunity for the President to speak directly to the people in Arab nations and let them know that the images that we all have seen are shameless and unacceptable," said the spokesman, Scott McClellan.

The crisis measure came as it emerged that more than 20

prisoners have died in custody at US military jails in Iraq and Afghanistan - and two of the inmates were found to have been killed by Americans.

The US Army disclosed the figures amid a growing scandal of abuse inflicted on prisoners by its soldiers.

Lawyers and politicians claimed photographs of detainees being mistreated at an Iraqi jail were simply the tip of the iceberg.

Meanwhile, US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld called the soldiers responsible "un-American" and vowed that they would be held accountable.
There are currently 10 investigations under way into prisoner deaths, mostly in Iraq, said Major General Donald Ryder, the US Army's provost marshal.

He said there were 10 pending cases involving possible assault of prisoners, including one sexual assault.

One investigation of a killing by a US soldier has been completed. It is understood that the soldier was convicted of using excessive force when he shot dead a prisoner who was throwing stones at him.

The soldier was discharged from the service but not given a jail sentence.

it's going to be very interesting to observe the political maneuvering that is going to take place in an effort to somehow fix this.
This response surprises me!

:)

Halardfan
May 5th, 2004, 11:02 AM
1. I think there are rogue elements in all the armed forces of the world, Im sure such things would go on whomever was there...the British already face similar charges, and have no doubt done similar things...but this does not make it acceptable. It is disgusting behaviour and they should throw the book at them.

2. I do think the US military has a wider case to answer though, as to whether its broad apporach has been the right one. From day one the British forces have at least attempted a more 'softly softly' approach, trying to work with the locals, to get out on the streets and engage with people. The British area to date has seen a lot less trouble...partly of course this is due to the make up of the population, but some credit must go to the approach taken. Decades of disaster and death in Northern Ireland have ironically given the British Army more insight into what is needed in Iraq....many British commnaders express private dismay the the US tactics.

3. The battle for hearts and minds isn't an optional extra in Iraq, rather it is the whole war. Lose the general population and we are finished, the Iraq war will be a lingering disaster. Many on the American right advocate simply crushing all that oppose us...that way lies certain defeat.

rand
May 5th, 2004, 11:04 AM
problem ios bush says it' unacceptable but there were only a few blames given, no?

Colin B
May 5th, 2004, 11:13 AM
oh, i agree rand. here's the problem from my personal view and i'm sure that many americans do not adhere to it. but i'm being honest here. the problem with the american "higher ethics" fairy tale is that we are from a country who is known to have arisen from the crucible of persecution. this nation was founded on the principle of free will and that all are created equal blah, blah, blah...all the things that run contrary to why they had to escape to america to begin with. that was then. and this is now.

now? we have become what we intially fled from. we have come full circle but here's the problem. what to do with the xtian pr job we've put out there all this time? you know...that one that engenders mercy, love, faith, forgiveness, kindness....what do we do with that?

the answer? nothing. we continue to put that out there because anything that strays too far from the norm is bound to bring up more questions than we have answers for. so...when issues such as the one we are discussing here come up, what happens? we rally to find a reason. we hold our heads in disgust and disbelief. we throw up our hands in frustration and wonder how and why. when in fact, it was there all along. we just never wanted to see it and therefore continued to fool ourselves and the world with us.
An amazingly honest and insightful post. It deserves a thread all to itself!


:worship: :worship:

rand
May 5th, 2004, 11:15 AM
:lol: ah, these sleepless nights, hm? what to do, what to do???

btw, rand. i refuse to allow you to lure me into derailing paul's thread. :lol: :lol:
:sad: can't we find a religion thread that we can derail into a food thread then? :sad:

rand
May 5th, 2004, 11:19 AM
fine...wait a sec :)

"Sluggy"
May 5th, 2004, 11:19 AM
I have a strong admiration for those who serve in the military generally. Unfortunately there will always be some idiots who screw it up. What do people do when i drunk driver causes an accident or worse. Do we get out of the car, if able to, and beat the crap out of him/her? No, we are supposed to let the law take its course. When American soldiers do this type of thing it makes us just as bad as the enemy and it is a real shame.

Colin B
May 5th, 2004, 11:39 AM
thank you colin. :)
You're welcome Bri! :wavey:

National pride has probably caused more fighting than anything else (after organized religion of course) in the world. It would be great to have a discussion about nationalism, national identity etc. at some point, although I fear it could turn into a bit of a bloodbath. We'd have to insist that everyone leaves their own national 'ego' at the door before entering.

:D

rand
May 5th, 2004, 11:43 AM
hey dd, if you don't want me to derail this one why do you stay out of the topic I specially made? :sad:

Barrie_Dude
May 5th, 2004, 09:47 PM
There's 200,00 of them, that's what's wrong. You can't assemble 200,000 people without having a fairly substantial number of depraved idiots.Exactly. Just look at the depraved idiots we have at WTAWorld!

Giuliano
May 5th, 2004, 10:02 PM
Exactly. Just look at the depraved idiots we have at WTAWorld!
But in this case, it is not about an Internet message board but about an army, and the most powerful one. Everyting should be under control, as hard as it is. The US Army has a very important responsibility and can't afford this kind of behaviour.

Car Key Boi
May 6th, 2004, 12:26 AM
And the papers say they were tortured, and forced men to perform homosexual acts and the like, and they were sodomized?
THEY WEREN'T SODOMIZED, FOOL!

THAT ONLY HAPPENS IN STATE PRISON, ESPECIALLY IN CALI

THOSE IRAQI FOOLZ WERE ONLY MADE TO PERFORM ASS-PYRAMIDS AND THE LIKE

- CAR KEY BOI,
THINKS THERE'S MADD LOOT TO BE MADE FROM SELLING T-SHIRTS SHOWING IRAQI "TORTURE" PICS / DIGTBK!

Steam
May 6th, 2004, 02:58 AM
I don't know. Personally, I'm still trying to figure out airplane peanuts.

*JR*
May 6th, 2004, 03:05 AM
ha! here's the thing. if we could in fact all be a part of a national discussion without the fear of nation-bashing, that would indeed be a show of true maturity here wouldn't it? might be worth trying but as you say...be ready for a bloodbath! :lol:
A noble endeavour indeed, as there's such an internationally diverse population here. Perhaps we can even choose a different contry or region every week to examine in good faith (count me in).

Re. the abuse In Iraq, It seems to have been @ least "choreographed" not by the soldiers (mostly Guard and Reserve units) But By the CIA, and the private contractor "Soldiers of Fortune".

"Sluggy"
May 6th, 2004, 09:10 AM
THEY WEREN'T SODOMIZED, FOOL!

THAT ONLY HAPPENS IN STATE PRISON, ESPECIALLY IN CALI

THOSE IRAQI FOOLZ WERE ONLY MADE TO PERFORM ASS-PYRAMIDS AND THE LIKE

- CAR KEY BOI,
THINKS THERE'S MADD LOOT TO BE MADE FROM SELLING T-SHIRTS SHOWING IRAQI "TORTURE" PICS / DIGTBK!


Fool? Ass-Pyramids? I was merely quoting the French Papers. Please explain what an ass pyramid is - how do you know what it is?

The papers says and i quote (im translating from french): "Certain prisoners were beaten, others humiliated, forced to simulate or perform homosexual acts, and sodomised with diverse objects". Thats what the paper says.

Hulet
May 6th, 2004, 11:17 PM
THEY WEREN'T SODOMIZED, FOOL!

THAT ONLY HAPPENS IN STATE PRISON, ESPECIALLY IN CALI

THOSE IRAQI FOOLZ WERE ONLY MADE TO PERFORM ASS-PYRAMIDS AND THE LIKE

- CAR KEY BOI,
THINKS THERE'S MADD LOOT TO BE MADE FROM SELLING T-SHIRTS SHOWING IRAQI "TORTURE" PICS / DIGTBK!
Even the US military investigation concluded there has been some sodomizing going on in the prison. First try to get your facts right then correct others, you fool.

Hulet
May 6th, 2004, 11:26 PM
I wasn't surprised that such things were going on in Iraq. What surprised me is the silence by International Red Cross and other international 'humanitarian' organization who were supposed to visit those prisoners and report to the public if they find things that are 'unacceptable'? Of course, now IRC says that they have warned they U.S. military about this for a whole year but why didn't they come public with this information when they realized that the military wasn't listening to them? Were they covering up for the military? Would they have been as patient if the same kind of abuses were being carried out by military of some other nation? I feel like some of the question and outrage should be directed at the direction of International Red Cross.

GBFH
May 6th, 2004, 11:33 PM
well i'm game, roger. if anyone else is interested it would be nice to know. :) if anything, it would be a great lesson in maturity to begin with, at least.
i'd like to read that thread.

as for my contribution...:haha: :smash:

GBFH
May 6th, 2004, 11:35 PM
oh, i know! i was thinking..."hmmmmm...and how long would that thread last before me and roger are raking each others' cyber eyeballs out again?" :haha:

but methinks roger and i have matured, no? :angel:
the over-under on that is 10 posts. any takers?

*JR*
May 6th, 2004, 11:38 PM
well i'm game, roger. if anyone else is interested it would be nice to know. :) if anything, it would be a great lesson in maturity to begin with, at least.
We need separate threads for this, I think. I'll ask posters I know are really into their national cultures, as they should play a big role. (For example, jacs from the Filipino thread in Chat, my Suisse Sometimes friend :p Rothes, and That Thor worshipper :eek: from down unda). ;)

*JR*
May 6th, 2004, 11:40 PM
the over-under on that is 10 posts. any takers?
OK Tex, the Lone Star Republic gets a thread! :devil:

GBFH
May 6th, 2004, 11:41 PM
:lol: c'mon let's put some money on this....:lol:
well shit, i was 'bout to lay down some green, and then roger has to drag in joui...there goes the hostility!

but wait...if rothes is involved, there's the potential for religious friction :devil: EXCELLENT!

the over-under has just been changed to 8 posts.

GBFH
May 6th, 2004, 11:42 PM
OK Tex, the Lone Star Republic gets a thread! :devil:
haha!

actually, there are quite a few texans on this board. we could have a nice little discussion ;) talk about how fucked our state constitution is.

GBFH
May 6th, 2004, 11:48 PM
what i want to know is...what's the the mothers killing their kids? :confused:
the water's toxic around here. seriously.

GBFH
May 6th, 2004, 11:52 PM
seriously? i think it's all that heavy fundamentalism yall have brewing down in houston. :p
houston. bleh. that horrid toilet of a city.

and you're probably right.

rand
May 7th, 2004, 08:31 AM
and I wasn't allowed to derail the thread :sad:


:haha:

fifiricci
May 7th, 2004, 08:37 AM
oh, i agree rand. here's the problem from my personal view and i'm sure that many americans do not adhere to it. but i'm being honest here. the problem with the american "higher ethics" fairy tale is that we are from a country who is known to have arisen from the crucible of persecution. this nation was founded on the principle of free will and that all are created equal blah, blah, blah...all the things that run contrary to why they had to escape to america to begin with. that was then. and this is now.

now? we have become what we intially fled from. we have come full circle but here's the problem. what to do with the xtian pr job we've put out there all this time? you know...that one that engenders mercy, love, faith, forgiveness, kindness....what do we do with that?

the answer? nothing. we continue to put that out there because anything that strays too far from the norm is bound to bring up more questions than we have answers for. so...when issues such as the one we are discussing here come up, what happens? we rally to find a reason. we hold our heads in disgust and disbelief. we throw up our hands in frustration and wonder how and why. when in fact, it was there all along. we just never wanted to see it and therefore continued to fool ourselves and the world with us.
Intelligent post, but please dont kid yourselves in the US that you've managed to fool the rest of the world. Your propaganda doesn't travel well, particularly to Europe. I am afraid that Mr Bush has dug the USA into a very big dirty hole its going to be difficult to get out of. Good luck!

rand
May 7th, 2004, 08:45 AM
what frightens me is that for the first time in history the democratic side is the opressor, while the resistance are the fundamentalists....it creates a very uncomfortable precedent...it's starting to show that trying to impose democracy by force was a very stupid thing to do.....
results are that all elections in arab/middle east countries led to a shift towards islamism, even in Egypt....it was supposed to help solve the israelo-palestinian conflict, it only made it worse....and it goes on....
ah well it's too late to criticise now, we should help...but what to do with a country in which if you get free elections it would give rise to a second Iran?

*JR*
May 8th, 2004, 01:08 AM
i agree with you here rand. the problem though, is not that democracy is a bad thing (although i personally believe that democracy cannot exist for long in any democratic nation)...the problem is when we impose it on others. once it is imposed...it is no longer a democracy.

democracy...by its own definition is when the people involved all have effective participation, all have voting equality, all have an enlightened understanding of the issues and policies involves, all have control of the agenda, and inclusion in all rights as mentioned above. this is not the case here. as a matter of fact...it is not the case even in what we call "democratic" nations anymore.

i think the mistake was in trying to make this invasion seem philanthropic for world approval. it was never philanthropic. it was for gain. and saying anything apart from that is an outright lie. i was never against the war and i still stand by my original views. but then again...i have the luxury of not being a part of an elected administration who has to placate the public in order to remain in power.

I KNEW WE'D WIN YOU OVA EVENTUALLY! :D

*JR*
May 8th, 2004, 01:21 AM
haha! not too fast, roger! i'm still just as hawkish as i ever was. but i'm farsighted and honest enough to know that

1. these pictures are bad for business
2. the right is barely keeping their head above water these days and
3. they should have been straight about things from the get-go.

the problem with dishonesty is that it eventually catches up with you and when it does, you're in for a vicious ass bite. this i know. but my views? are still the same. i just wish more honesty all around was involved. at least then there wouldn't be the hypocrisy...which i completely detest.
John McCain would have been a principled conservative President, meeting your (correct) standard. I won't even compare him To The present clown show!

Colin B
May 8th, 2004, 12:19 PM
however, fifi... the united states of america didn't even exist when "enlightened" europe massacred 100,000 moslems during the fall of antioch or when "enlightened" europe massacred 70,000 moslems during the fall of jerusalem. or when "enlightened" conquistadors slaughtered 15 million amerindians. or when "enlightened" europeans slaughtered 8 thousand jews in the rhineland. or when the "enlightened" richard slaughtered 3000 moslem POW's.

we are a nation which by historical standards, is still in its infancy. hence the reason, i'm sure that nothing we do seems to travel well in europe. give us a few more centuries and i'm sure we will eventually reach europe's state of "enlightenment."...as well as europe's body count. :)


I dont think fiffiricci meant to be hypocritical, Bri. I think s/he was making the point that the 'fairytale' was written for American domestic consumption.
It's the very fact that we (in Europe) have come to accept our faults and past wrongs, that leads us to mock America's self delusional piety.

We know that you don't buy into it, that's why you are one of the most respected posters on this board.

;)

Colin B
May 8th, 2004, 02:21 PM
Hold on to your hats:

US Torture Scandal: There's Worse to Come


Horrific new allegations are set to surface about the treatment of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers.

Unreleased photos held by military police apparently show US soldiers severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi prisoner and "acting inappropriately with a dead body."

Officials also said there was also a videotape, apparently shot by Americans, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys.

US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld warned worse was to come when he testified to a senate committee yesterday.
Mr Rumsfeld, who apologised for the abuse but refused to resign, said the full array of images held by military police were "hard to believe".

"There are other photos that depict incidents of physical violence towards prisoners, acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane... It’s going to get a good deal more terrible, I’m afraid", he said.

In the committee hearing Republican senator Lindsey Graham told reporters: "The American public needs to understand we're talking about rape and murder here. We're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience.''
He did not elaborate, but a Senate aide said senators have been told videotapes are believed to exist showing rape and the corpses of what are possibly murder victims. - AOL

:(

JustineTime
May 8th, 2004, 05:50 PM
i agree with you here rand. the problem though, is not that democracy is a bad thing (although i personally believe that democracy cannot exist for long in any democratic nation)...the problem is when we impose it on others. once it is imposed...it is no longer a democracy.

democracy...by its own definition is when the people involved all have effective participation, all have voting equality, all have an enlightened understanding of the issues and policies involves, all have control of the agenda, and inclusion in all rights as mentioned above. this is not the case here. as a matter of fact...it is not the case even in what we call "democratic" nations anymore.

i think the mistake was in trying to make this invasion seem philanthropic for world approval. it was never philanthropic. it was for gain. and saying anything apart from that is an outright lie. i was never against the war and i still stand by my original views. but then again...i have the luxury of not being a part of an elected administration who has to placate the public in order to remain in power.
Well said, Bri! :) I've said this for years: the US has absolutely no right to impose its form of government on other nations! :mad: :fiery:

And even Thomas Jefferson considered democracy impracticable "beyond the limits of a town". I daresay it is the democratization of our own country, hence the departure from the republican principles on which it was founded, that is largely responsible for the abandonment/trespass of the original constitutional boundaries set in place by the founding fathers which has resulted in the moral and cultural freefall in which America now finds itself. :sad: Certainly we have no moral imperative to impose THAT on the rest of the world! :rolleyes: :(

Color me isolationist! :angel:

*JR*
May 8th, 2004, 06:03 PM
Hello JiT, long time! :) IMO, the real problem was letting you recruit all those Hell's Angels in Oakland to do the job In Iraq! :p

JustineTime
May 8th, 2004, 06:32 PM
Hello JiT, long time! :) IMO, the real problem was letting you recruit all those Hell's Angels in Oakland to do the job In Iraq! :p
Roger, whatever is this obsession you have with my, err, theological inclinations? :confused: :p

*JR*
May 8th, 2004, 06:43 PM
Roger, whatever is this obsession you have with my, err, theological inclinations? :confused: :p
For "Christ's Sake" :p it was about your East Bay connection, not religion!

wta_zuperfann
May 9th, 2004, 05:12 AM
al-Qaeda's new recruiting poster:


http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/dayart/20040507/cartoon20040507.gif



Ain't it the truth?


For those of you who regularly read USA newspapers and web forums, you know how so many warmongering reich wing Americans are defending the aberrant rapist torturers in those photos. As bizarre as it may sound, there are many Americans who applaud with rapturous joy at those horrid scenes. This does not mean that they are happy to see them displayed all over the world. In fact, some are convinced that this is no news at all and that the world is making a "big deal" out of "nothing".

Yeah, right.

Hate to admit it but the USA contains a great many idiots who would wiping Hitler's ass with glee if the opportunity presented itself.