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MrSerenaWilliams
May 3rd, 2004, 04:37 PM
Venus is not winning, because she is not playing top ten players, nor is she becoming a clay-court specialist, nor is she peaking before that all-important stretch of seven weeks between and including Roland Garros and Wimbledon. Venus is simply returning to the dominating spot that she once held in the tennis world twenty-one monts ago. Venus, in the summers of 2000 and 2001, was the most dominant player on the tour, however, was not ranked #1 until 2002, where she reigned for only 11 weeks, the least of all players to hold that honor. Her short reign however was not her fault. She earned that ranking numerous times, people with lesser career achievements have held that spot for longer. She really was getting into her most dominating stretch, when Serena evolved from a moon orbiting Venus, to a solar system of her own. Venus was still a great player. No other duo in HISTORY (inc. Evert/Navratilova Graf/Seles, Hingis/Davenport) reached 4 consecutive Grand Slam finals, but they did (THEY meaning Venus and Serena, Venus couldn't win Serena's matches, and Serena couldn't win Venus', they both had to win 6 consecutive singles matches [they won doubles titles at two of those Grand Slams {02 Wimbledon and 03 Oz Open}]). Venus is a great player, but it's taken her a long time to get over such important injuries which affected her serve, overheads, grounstrokes and movement (abdominal, thighs, wrists). Venus is a FIGHTER, and has gracefully fought through all of these injuries en route to returning to the top 10. One thing everyone must remember is that Venus, and Serena, are most dangerous when they are underestimated. The WTA tour better be on alert. Even Serena better step it up next week in Italy, or else she'll be holding four consecutive Grand Slam runner-up plates. Venus is GREAT, and now that she's playing healthily, I don't think many people can stop her...if any at all!

SJW
May 3rd, 2004, 04:44 PM
Venus is GREAT, and now that she's playing healthily, I don't think many people can stop her...if any at all!
Berlin, GER Round 2 vs Golovin/Daniilidou 05/05/04

:)

- L i n a -
May 3rd, 2004, 04:47 PM
Such a unique thread.

I applaud you!!!

MrSerenaWilliams
May 3rd, 2004, 04:53 PM
No one actually suggested Venus is only winning because she hasn't meet non top 10 players.
No one on this site has, but I've read some editorial stories about Venus' recent success.

Foot_Fault
May 3rd, 2004, 05:02 PM
No one on this site has, but I've read some editorial stories about Venus' recent success.
Who Cares?:rolleyes: Venus is winning thats all that counts. She can't help who plays and who don't play. Who advances and who don't advances. The same was afforded to Justine when Venus and Serena was out...or lost early. It's no one's fault. Fact remains you still have to perform, compete, and now that Venus is about 80% she's getting back to that level.

Let them talk, as long as Venus continues to rack up titles...WHO CARES WHAT THEY SAY? I DON'T!

griffin
May 3rd, 2004, 05:16 PM
She can't help who plays and who don't play. Who advances and who don't advances. The same was afforded to Justine when Venus and Serena was out...or lost early.

Well, actually, there certainly were more than enough pundits and posters who were eager to diminish Justine's Slam wins and her ranking (and Kimmie's ranking, and Amelies...) because Venus and Serena weren't around.

But I agree, it was stupid then, it's stupid now. Venus has no control over whether player x is injured or whether Amelie's brain explodes in an early round.

Would I be more impressed if she'd beaten some of the top 10 in the last few weeks? Well d'uh. But winning two tournaments in a row - her longest winning streak since 2002 from what I've read - while still on the comback trail is still pretty friggin' impressive.

Foot_Fault
May 3rd, 2004, 05:23 PM
Well, actually, there certainly were more than enough pundits and posters who were eager to diminish Justine's Slam wins and her ranking (and Kimmie's ranking, and Amelies...) because Venus and Serena weren't around.

But I agree, it was stupid then, it's stupid now. Venus has no control over whether player x is injured or whether Amelie's brain explodes in an early round.

Would I be more impressed if she'd beaten some of the top 10 in the last few weeks? Well d'uh. But winning two tournaments in a row - her longest winning streak since 2002 from what I've read - while still on the comback trail is still pretty friggin' impressive.
I agree, and i was always supported Justine and Kimmie to the extent that it's not their fault Venus and or Serena was out injured and/or couldn't advance in a tournament for more competitive tennis. They competed, they won, even Venus has stated, no one gets to where they are without hard work and that they deserve to be there. I feel the same way...Yeah, we play the "what if" card, but the reality card states they are not there...take advantage, and I think Venus is doing that now, gaining confidence in the process.

Martian Willow
May 3rd, 2004, 05:26 PM
Well, actually, there certainly were more than enough pundits and posters who were eager to diminish Justine's Slam wins and her ranking (and Kimmie's ranking, and Amelies...) because Venus and Serena weren't around.

But I agree, it was stupid then, it's stupid now. Venus has no control over whether player x is injured or whether Amelie's brain explodes in an early round.

Would I be more impressed if she'd beaten some of the top 10 in the last few weeks? Well d'uh. But winning two tournaments in a row - her longest winning streak since 2002 from what I've read - while still on the comback trail is still pretty friggin' impressive.

...hater... :)

TeeRexx
May 3rd, 2004, 05:31 PM
Great thread and post by mrserena willams. However, there were some individuals, on this board, who dismissed her recent success because of the absence of some top players in the events that she won.

VENUS is the hottest player on the tour at this time and a win in Berlin will send a shockwave through the tour and hype up excitement everywhere, especially on this board. :)

Rocketta
May 3rd, 2004, 06:01 PM
The only difference is that no one diminished Venus accomplishments in the last 2 weeks, while there are tons of people who diminished Justine and Kim accomplishments in the last year.
weren't you the one saying that venus only won tier III's diminishing the quality of the field she had to face? Also, diminishing her accomplishment of winning a tier I & II? :confused:

"Sluggy"
May 3rd, 2004, 06:02 PM
I thought the original post was educational and well written. Venus is certainly a force to be reckoned with, and though not a major fan I hope she continues to succeed. it is nice to see her back in form!!!!!

Foot_Fault
May 3rd, 2004, 06:42 PM
Being lucid on what players she beated doesn't diminish her accomplishment. I've heard people saying Henin would NEVER have won 3 slams if Venus and Serena wouldn't have been injured... Did I say Venus would have never won Charleston or Warsaw with Henin, Clijsters and Serena being in the draw? No. Did I say she won't win Berlin?
I am going to say this as delicately as I can.
You Can't say that about Venus, pretaining to Henin and Clijsters b/c they have yet to prove they can beat Venus on a consistent basis. I would've accepted the comment if it pretained to Serena vs. Venus, but not the other to metioned. Sorry, just the truth. SO you we're not compelled to state that b/c of the facts. Once they turn the tables on Venus...then, we can say...you're probably correct...but they have yet to prove they can beat Venus Consistently beating her 1 time each..and Kimmy got a extra Retirement win.

Rocketta
May 3rd, 2004, 06:51 PM
Being lucid on what players she beated doesn't diminish her accomplishment. I've heard people saying Henin would NEVER have won 3 slams if Venus and Serena wouldn't have been injured... Did I say Venus would have never won Charleston or Warsaw with Henin, Clijsters and Serena being in the draw? No. Did I say she won't win Berlin? No, we'll have to wait. I just had a lucid view of the kind of opponents she beated; if people feel it's diminishing accomplishment they are paranoid.

We all know Venus can beat those kind of players. She was able to beat them at Key Biscayne (when tons of people were suggesting back then that the real Venus would never come back), was able to beat them in the last 2 weeks and will always able to beat them until she's 28. She was even able to beat Brandi on one leg at the Australian Open.

Good that some people are excited about her wins but that just doesn't make her the fave for the French Open. And it does NOT mean that the dominant Venus of 00' or 01' is back. Please come back to me when she'll be Clijsters, Henin, Serena, Capriati or Mauresmo on clay.
so your saying referring to her wins as tier III wins is actually being realistic? :confused:

So you weren't diminishing her wins you were what uplifting them, right? :tape:

Referring to her Tier I title as a tier III is diminishing it. That's the point of having a certain tier associated with the tournament right to determine it's prestige. So to refer to someone's win as a lesser tier win is to diminish it's prestige. So keep telling yourself you weren't trying to diminish her wins if you want but that doesn't make it so. There's a difference in talking about the competition and referring to someone's win as a Tier III. Also, when Justine beat the same player to win Dubai did you call her win a tier III? If not then your full of it.


Who cares if you said she would've lost to Henin? That's speculation and that's all we do on this board. It's a henin fan's right to think she would win if she's in a tournament just like it's a Williams fan's right to think the same.

You know it's one thing to be upset at what others say about your fav and it's one thing to get revenge but at least be honest when you're doing it and not pretend like your above it all while you wallow in the gutter. :rolleyes:

Also, when someone suggested Martina look at Venus now I believe your comment was



I'm sure she's really inspired by Venus Tier III wins.

in the thread http://wtaworld.com/showthread.php?t=113136

are you trying to say you weren't attempting to diminish Venus' wins then?

Are you a liar or are you just that out of touch with your own actions and motivations?

harloo
May 3rd, 2004, 06:59 PM
I do believe that with all the players in a tournament we can see who is the REAL dominant player. I have always believed that regardless of whom you were playing a win is a win. I did feel that H-H did take advantage of the Williams absence especially at the USO. The other top players should of did the same thing.

I am just happy that Venus is getting her game back on track and winning some of these tournaments. I feel this will give her alot more confidence on clay when she does indeed meet a H-H, Clijsters, Mauresmo, Davenport, and even baby sis.:) I have always felt that it does not matter whom Venus plays, it only matters how she executes her game. Of course the argument can be made that she is not dominant now because she has not beaten a top ten player, but we will have to see how it all plays out.

- L i n a -
May 3rd, 2004, 07:10 PM
I agree with everyone that says VENUS is the GREATEST!!!!

The rest are HATE-FILLED RACISTS that know nothing about TENNIS!!!!

charmedRic
May 3rd, 2004, 07:18 PM
...I agree with the starting post. And I would like to wish V.Williams best of luck at Berlin!

Pureracket
May 3rd, 2004, 07:21 PM
I agree with everyone that says VENUS is the GREATEST!!!!

The rest are HATE-FILLED RACISTS that know nothing about TENNIS!!!!:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: LOL. .. I guess Lina fans have to have some way of getting attention. Too bad Lina's tennis isn't doing much talking these days.:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

DeDe4925
May 3rd, 2004, 07:24 PM
so your saying referring to her wins as tier III wins is actually being realistic? :confused:

So you weren't diminishing her wins you were what uplifting them, right? :tape:

Referring to her Tier I title as a tier III is diminishing it. That's the point of having a certain tier associated with the tournament right to determine it's prestige. So to refer to someone's win as a lesser tier win is to diminish it's prestige. So keep telling yourself you weren't trying to diminish her wins if you want but that doesn't make it so. There's a difference in talking about the competition and referring to someone's win as a Tier III. Also, when Justine beat the same player to win Dubai did you call her win a tier III? If not then your full of it.


Who cares if you said she would've lost to Henin? That's speculation and that's all we do on this board. It's a henin fan's right to think she would win if she's in a tournament just like it's a Williams fan's right to think the same.

You know it's one thing to be upset at what others say about your fav and it's one thing to get revenge but at least be honest when you're doing it and not pretend like your above it all while you wallow in the gutter. :rolleyes:

Also, when someone suggested Martina look at Venus now I believe your comment was


in the thread http://wtaworld.com/showthread.php?t=113136

are you trying to say you weren't attempting to diminish Venus' wins then?

Are you a liar or are you just that out of touch with your own actions and motivations?
Girlfrieeeeeeeeenddd. :lol:

Rocketta
May 3rd, 2004, 07:27 PM
"Referring to her Tier I title as a tier III is diminishing it. That's the point of having a certain tier associated with the tournament right to determine it's prestige."

I don't care about the WTA associating Tiers to the tournements. A lot of Tier II are stronger than Tier I, there isn't such thing in the mens side as "Tier" so don't hear people saying Roddick dominates on clay or fans going crazy just because he won 2 Mickey Mouse events on it.

"There's a difference in talking about the competition and referring to someone's win as a Tier III."

To me it's exactly the same. We all know what "Tier III opponents" are, it should be clear enough to anyone who follow womens tennis.

"Also, when Justine beat the same player to win Dubai did you call her win a tier III? If not then your full of it."

Didn't people say Hingis only went to Dubai and Doha because both draws are known to be weak? Yes it was a Tier III wins as far as I'm concerned. But I probably didn't say it because I don't recall people putting much an importance on that win for Henin.

"Who cares if you said she would've lost to Henin? That's speculation and that's all we do on this board. It's a henin fan's right to think she would win if she's in a tournament just like it's a Williams fan's right to think the same."

You lost me there, I never said she would have lost to Henin.

"are you trying to say you weren't attempting to diminish Venus' wins then?

Are you a liar or are you just that out of touch with your own actions and motivations?"

I was just being an ass on the topshotta thread because I thought the thread was unnessecery and he didn't have much of a point.
So all of that to say, No you didn't say that when Henin won in Dubai, ie you didn't feel the need to be realistic then, and yes there were other motivating factors besides being "realistic" when you called Venus wins tier III wins? :confused:

and I never said you said she woud've lost to Henin. I said who cares *if* you would have said that.

Also, What does Hingis and Roddick have to do with it? :confused:

Rocketta
May 3rd, 2004, 07:29 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: LOL. .. I guess Lina fans have to have some way of getting attention. Too bad Lina's tennis isn't doing much talking these days.:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Well Lina is just in bad shape all around and all you can do is just have sympathy for her...:sad:

Pureracket
May 3rd, 2004, 07:32 PM
So all of that to say, No you didn't say that when Henin won in Dubai, ie you didn't feel the need to be realistic then, and yes there were other motivating factors besides being "realistic" when you called Venus wins tier III wins? :confused:

and I never said you said she woud've lost to Henin. I said who cares *if* you would have said that.

Also, What does Hingis and Roddick have to do with it? :confused:LOL. . .OMG!!!!!! It's so funny how you've caught this poster up in a little fib.

servenrichie
May 3rd, 2004, 07:37 PM
So all of that to say, No you didn't say that when Henin won in Dubai, ie you didn't feel the need to be realistic then, and yes there were other motivating factors besides being "realistic" when you called Venus wins tier III wins? :confused:

and I never said you said she woud've lost to Henin. I said who cares *if* you would have said that.

Also, What does Hingis and Roddick have to do with it? :confused:Rocketta, it is no secret around here that Rebecca is suffering from severe frigidity, it makes her delirious and she cant keep track of her own posts:tape: :lol:

Martian Willow
May 3rd, 2004, 07:40 PM
Rocketta, it is no secret around here that Rebecca is suffering from severe frigidity, it makes her delirious and she cant keep track of her own posts:tape: :lol:

:haha: :haha: :haha:

x1,000,000,000,000.

...somebody in this thread is delirious, that's for sure... :)

Pureracket
May 3rd, 2004, 08:09 PM
Servenrichie, i find quite offensive to call a woman "frigid" for having opinions. But of course I'm sure you'll get full support of the rest of the pack.

And I'm not Rebecca. Thanks.I'd be offended by being called a member of the "pack" from anybody else, but I'm sure you'll find support from the rest of the vultures.

Fingon
May 3rd, 2004, 08:25 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: LOL. .. I guess Lina fans have to have some way of getting attention. Too bad Lina's tennis isn't doing much talking these days.:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
a word of wisdom, you can't criticize a playing unless your own favourite does better :rolleyes:

btw, re: your signature, I don't think there are good and bad Williams fans, as with all other fans there are intelligent fans and stupid fans, in the same order if you know what I mean.

Fingon
May 3rd, 2004, 08:29 PM
Servenrichie, i find quite offensive to call a woman "frigid" for having opinions. But of course I'm sure you'll get full support of the rest of the pack.

And I'm not Rebecca. Thanks.
don't you love it when they try to look clever and get it all wrong? especially when it happens all the time.

HAIL-VENUS
May 3rd, 2004, 08:33 PM
This is a good thread. I'm glad someone addressed this issue. I see a lot of retracting going on in here and I have a few questions. Aren't these same players (none top 10'ners) who Venus is beating now the same players that she was losing to when everyone thought she was "washed up"? So why all of a sudden, now that she's beating these players again, are you unimpressed by her accomplishments? Aren't these some of the same girls only a few short months ago, regardless of their rankings, that you credited with helping Venus to a possible early retirement in order to save her ultimate humiliation? So now, these players are not quite up to par, huh?

SJW
May 3rd, 2004, 08:33 PM
Rocketta, it is no secret around here that Rebecca is suffering from severe frigidity, it makes her delirious and she cant keep track of her own posts:tape: :lol:
Rebecca is Crazy Canuck

:)

DA FOREHAND
May 3rd, 2004, 08:37 PM
"Well, actually, there certainly were more than enough pundits and posters who were eager to diminish Justine's Slam wins and her ranking (and Kimmie's ranking, and Amelies...) because Venus and Serena weren't around.
"

justine has a losing record to both Venus and Serena...the same can't be said in the abscence of justine....Venus has beaten justine on grass /rebound ace /clay.... justine has won how many matches off the clay? ZERO c the diff? didnt' think you would

servenrichie
May 3rd, 2004, 08:39 PM
don't you love it when they try to look clever and get it all wrong? especially when it happens all the time.Dont you love it when people who have been squirming in their own shit all their lives, try to make out that all of a sudden, they have never seen shit:lol:

Fingon
May 3rd, 2004, 08:41 PM
Dont you love it when people who have been squirming in their own shit all their lives, try to make out that all of a sudden, they have never seen shit:lol:
and that makes so much sense, surely putting a smile makes an idiotic comment clever ...

servenrichie
May 3rd, 2004, 08:46 PM
and that makes so much sense, surely putting a smile makes an idiotic comment clever ...Hey, I am getting dissapointed. Were you equipped only with the word "idiocy" when you left kindergarten? Surely, your teachers and parents must have tried teaching you more than that. Dont dissapoint them little boy, get your notebook out. I am laughing, while you are squirming "idiot":lol: :lol: :lol:

Pureracket
May 3rd, 2004, 08:58 PM
don't you love it when they try to look clever and get it all wrong? especially when it happens all the time.I'm sure that this is an intelligent post, but I don't understand it.

Your scrutiny of my signature is appreciated, but I'm pretty sure that I'll keep it.

Rocketta
May 3rd, 2004, 08:59 PM
"So all of that to say, No you didn't say that when Henin won in Dubai, ie you didn't feel the need to be realistic then, and yes there were other motivating factors besides being "realistic" when you called Venus wins tier III wins? :confused:"

I never understood that reasonning... So because I say Ben Affleck is a bad actor, then I must also list all bad actors? If I say that a Tier II draw is weak, then I must list all weak Tier II? I explained the difference between Henin wins and Venus wins, with different context and different reactions froms people.

No you didn't explain that you tried to rationalize your behavior and make it into something else. Basically, you're trying to explain why when you diminish someone's achievements it's justified and when others do it it's bad. Oh sorry! You're trying to explain why when you diminsh someone's achievenments it's realistic and when other's do it it's bad. Why you just can't say yes I was trying to diminish her achievements not because I believe that but because I was trying to get back at the poster who started the thread is beyond me. However, keep up the rationalizations. It's fine by me. I just look forward to the next, "Williams fan" post of yours.



"Also, What does Hingis and Roddick have to do with it?"

I don't know if you are serious, but you know we're talking about tennis, so it's normal tennis players are going to be mentionned.
Well I guess I was just being unrealistic in expecting you to keep the conversation about Venus, Henin, you and your comments about tier II tournaments realistically being a tier III and how they differ in intent than any other negative comment. Silly me. :shrug:

also your analogy about "bad actors" is just bad here's why....If your goal is to be realistic and is just about tennis then yes you would make that statement about all weak tier II's and refer all winners as tier III winners. :tape:

That of course isn't your goal hence no you won't say that about all tier II winners of weak draws...You only felt the need to be realistic in this case. The sad part is you can't admit it.

See had you not made a sweeping inaccurate statement like "The only difference is that no one diminished Venus accomplishments in the last 2 weeks, while there are tons of people who diminished Justine and Kim accomplishments in the last year." someone might believe you.

Rocketta
May 3rd, 2004, 09:05 PM
I'd be offended by being called a member of the "pack" from anybody else, but I'm sure you'll find support from the rest of the vultures.Well I'm the Original Wolfpacker. :devil: Pure, you know it was/is your goal in life to be a wolfpacker too! ;)

Pureracket
May 3rd, 2004, 09:15 PM
Well I'm the Original Wolfpacker. :devil: Pure, you know it was/is your goal in life to be a wolfpacker too! ;)Now, THIS may very well be the most offensive post of all..






j/k

Rocketta
May 3rd, 2004, 09:19 PM
Now, THIS may very well be the most offensive post of all..






j/k
:haha:

Well, I was just waiting for an opportunity to get pay back on the Carolina blue panties post....:o

:lol:

faboozadoo15
May 3rd, 2004, 09:21 PM
venus is winning because she just rocks!
GO V!!!

Pureracket
May 3rd, 2004, 09:23 PM
;) :haha:

Well, I was just waiting for an opportunity to get pay back on the Carolina blue panties post....:o

:lol:;) LOL!!!!!;)

servenrichie
May 3rd, 2004, 09:24 PM
Rebecca is Crazy Canuck

:)I could have sworn, those 2 posters are the same. They both reason from their asses, which is why frigidity is a possibility, when refering to those 2.:tape: :lol:

servenrichie
May 3rd, 2004, 09:26 PM
Well I'm the Original Wolfpacker. :devil: Pure, you know it was/is your goal in life to be a wolfpacker too! ;)Well I am a Wolfpacker and I aint ashamed of it:bounce: :bounce:

Ballbuster
May 3rd, 2004, 09:33 PM
The only difference is that no one diminished Venus accomplishments in the last 2 weeks, while there are tons of people who diminished Justine and Kim accomplishments in the last year.

You Did! You called her Tier I and Tier II wins, Tier III's. let me find that quote for you,

Oh here it is.

32Whttp://www.itftennis.com/shared/images/players/h2h.gif (http://www.itftennis.com/womens/players/headtohead.asp?player=20005009&opponent=20008513) Samantha REEVES (http://www.itftennis.com/womens/players/player.asp?player=20008513) (USA) 4-6 6-4 6-3
16Whttp://www.itftennis.com/shared/images/players/h2h.gif (http://www.itftennis.com/womens/players/headtohead.asp?player=20005009&opponent=35012899) Marie-Gaiane MIKAELIAN (http://www.itftennis.com/womens/players/player.asp?player=35012899) (SUI) 6-4 6-1
QFWhttp://www.itftennis.com/shared/images/players/h2h.gif (http://www.itftennis.com/womens/players/headtohead.asp?player=20005009&opponent=35011959) Vera ZVONAREVA (http://www.itftennis.com/womens/players/player.asp?player=35011959) (RUS) 6-3 6-4
SFWhttp://www.itftennis.com/shared/images/players/h2h.gif (http://www.itftennis.com/womens/players/headtohead.asp?player=20005009&opponent=20008013) Jelena KOSTANIC (http://www.itftennis.com/womens/players/player.asp?player=20008013) (CRO) 6-4 6-1
FRWhttp://www.itftennis.com/shared/images/players/h2h.gif (http://www.itftennis.com/womens/players/headtohead.asp?player=20005009&opponent=20000441) Conchita MARTINEZ (http://www.itftennis.com/womens/players/player.asp?player=20000441) (ESP) 2-6 6-2 6-1

That looks like a Tier III to me, it could even be a strong Tier IV.


Not only did you BLANTANTLY try to deminish her skills you even when a step further to imply her winnings were that of Tier IV's.

You are the consummate hypocrite - you should leave this board.

Ballbuster
May 3rd, 2004, 09:37 PM
Diminishing: saying she wouldn't have win with stronger opponents.

Objective common sense: she faced Tier III kind of opponents.

Bye.

You have been called out - by your own words you have no argument.

fammmmedspin
May 3rd, 2004, 09:45 PM
I do believe that with all the players in a tournament we can see who is the REAL dominant player. I have always believed that regardless of whom you were playing a win is a win. I did feel that H-H did take advantage of the Williams absence especially at the USO. The other top players should of did the same thing.

I am just happy that Venus is getting her game back on track and winning some of these tournaments. I feel this will give her alot more confidence on clay when she does indeed meet a H-H, Clijsters, Mauresmo, Davenport, and even baby sis.:) I have always felt that it does not matter whom Venus plays, it only matters how she executes her game. Of course the argument can be made that she is not dominant now because she has not beaten a top ten player, but we will have to see how it all plays out.
Precisely.Venus can't beat who isn't there. You can't extrapolate from who she hasn't played that she is playing badly anymore than you can assume she is playing better than the players we havn't seen will be at the FO. Claiming she is dominant now on the basis that she has historic H2H against players or she is winning matches where they are not there isn't logical. Things change, players develop, Serena or Justine are not Vera. You can say Venus looks good, you might even say she looks as if she is she is returning to her best form (serve?) but you need to know what Serena, Justine, Momo, Lindsay and Kim are playing like and how they can play Venus to make any comment on relative strength. The Clay season is notoriously unkind to "form" players anyway but when the current form and prospects for the FO of 80% of the major contenders is unknown, prediction is impossible.

Rocketta
May 3rd, 2004, 09:50 PM
I haven't diminished Venus accomplishment (just pointed out the obvious truth about the kind of opponents she faced) and I never said it was bad when people diminish Henin accomplishments, I couldn't care less.

I didn't say you diminished Venus' accomplishments that's impossible for you to do. I said you tried to diminish it.



It was a stupid thread, stupid reply. Nothing worth discussing during hours. Get over yourself, I was just an ass in a stupid thread.
Like I said, you're rationalizing your behavior. I don't care why you did just that you did making your statement false.


You asked if I thought Henin wins at Dubai was a Tier III wins, I told you yes, what do you want more?
No I didn't I asked if you called Henin's win a Tier III win. I don't care what you think only what you do. See if you didn't go out of your way to call Henin's win a Tier III win then why not? You're all about being realistic and telling the truth. :rolleyes:


Admit what? Yes I'm biased negatively when it concerns the Williams sisters, which doesn't make my points less valid.
We've already proven your statement to be false. The fact that your biased against the Williams sisters only lends less belief to the "I'm only being honest, I'm only being realistic" alltruistic spin your trying to put on your posts. No you were being a butt and trying to diminish her accomplishments for whatever reason. Also, you then have the nerve on the next day to make a post saying no one tried to diminish her accomplishments. Yes I know calling a tier I a tier III is not trying to diminish her accomplishments, it was being realistic and informative. :rolleyes:


"See had you not made a sweeping inaccurate statement like "The only difference is that no one diminished Venus accomplishments in the last 2 weeks, while there are tons of people who diminished Justine and Kim accomplishments in the last year." someone might believe you."

The statement was very accurate. We had tons of people diminishing Clijsters and Henin accomplishment (and to repeat myself, I couldn't care less), and no one diminished Venus accomplishment. Like if saying Venus beated Tier III opponents is diminishing her accomplishments LOL. Just the truth. Now I'm waiting you to quote for the 10 times my reply in the topshotta thread, and then the discussion will go in circle again.
No I can quote you from the other thread as well but no need you only have to say it once for your statement to be false. Oh look at the bolded part to see what makes your statement false. You can double talk all you want. Yes calling a tier I a tier III is trying to diminish their accomplishments. I told you why before. If all tournaments were the same they wouldn't have a tier system would they? Maybe when I start seeing you refer to Justine's wins as inferior to the level of the tier I'll believe you believe a tenth of what you write. For now we know your just blowing wind trying to justify...

All you had to do was say "not many people tried to diminish Venus' accomplishments" but Nooooooo you have to exaggerate but we already knew that about you and several others with your "Williams fan" posts, didn't we?

DA FOREHAND
May 3rd, 2004, 09:51 PM
Who's saying any of that? I'm saying that Venus is started to look like her old self, which in my eyes means she need only prove that she can once again (because she has) beat Serena Williams. When all the top players are playing near thier best(at thier best is extremely rare) I think only Serena can hang w/Venus.

MrSerenaWilliams
May 3rd, 2004, 09:54 PM
Who's saying any of that? I'm saying that Venus is started to look like her old self, which in my eyes means she need only prove that she can once again (because she has) beat Serena Williams. When all the top players are playing near thier best(at thier best is extremely rare) I think only Serena can hang w/Venus.
Amen!:wavey:

Rocketta
May 4th, 2004, 03:03 PM
I thought you were through with this thread....but I see you're not through trying to spin. Keep spinning. No one has to interpret anything, I'm going by your exact words and with your exact words you did the one thing you claimed no one did to Venus in the past two weeks.

Yeah keep using the Ben Affleck analogy it's really equal to this tennis argument...NOT!

Rocketta
May 4th, 2004, 03:10 PM
That reminds me the time it wasn't possible to criticize Richard Williams without saying how horrible Lucic, Pierce and Dokic father are. :o
well apparently your not the only one that likes to try to change the subject. :o