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tennisIlove09
May 3rd, 2004, 02:33 AM
Since "haters" are barking that Venus hasn't beaten top 10 this year...let's look at the top 10 vs. top 10

Adidas International
QF
Henin def. Rubin
Davenport def. Dementieva
Mauresmo def. Myskina
F
Henin def. Mauresmo

Australian
QF
Henin def. Davenport
Clijsters def. Myskina
F
Henin def. Clijsters

Indian Wells
SF
Henin def. Myskina
F
Henin def. Davenport

Miami
F
Serena def. Dementieva

Amelia Island
QF
Petrova def. Serena
SF
Mauresmo def. Henin
Davenport def. Petrova
F
Davenport def. Mauresmo

only 14 matches between top 10ers. :eek: :eek:

fammmmedspin
May 3rd, 2004, 02:43 AM
Which is what you would expect with most of the top 10 sick - you can't play people who are not there anymore than Venus could..

The point isn't an anti-Venus point. The point is simple logic. The top 10 have not been playing. No one knows what they are going to play like when and if they do. Not playing the top 10 who are not there to play is no guide to what will happen when they are there to play. The top female marathon runners missed the London marathon this year but only a foolish person would suggest that makes the winner the favourite for the Olympic gold. All we know is that Venus is now playing very well when it matters - knowing one figure in a 6-8 part equation doesn't give you any answer worth having though.

dreamgoddess099
May 3rd, 2004, 02:53 AM
Oh please, there is nothing special about beating some of those top ten players. Like I said, some of them have yet to win a title this year so they can't be all that tough to beat. Some of them have played just as many, if not more, tournaments than Venus and weren't even off tour for 6 months.

fammmmedspin
May 3rd, 2004, 03:06 AM
Oh please, there is nothing special about beating some of those top ten players. Like I said, some of them have yet to win a title this year so they can't be all that tough to beat. Some of them have played just as many, if not more, tournaments than Venus and weren't even off tour for 6 months.
In the sense that the difference between Vera, Sveta (let alone Venus) and some of the top 10 is pretty questionable on current form you are right.

The point of the original post seemed to be though that Venus was not alone in not playing the top 10. This seemed to be making a point that had no meaning. The top ten have been injured in unpreceedented numbers - you can't play Serena or Momo or Kim or Ai or Myskina or dementieva if they are not there to play so its hardly surprising top 10 encounters are few in number. No one has been silly enough to say not playing top 10 players makes Venus a bad player - a few people though have pointed out that not playing top players gives only a limited guide to what might happen if you do. What the post points out in fact is that the form of most of the top 10 (including the top 4 and Serena) is unknown, what it will be at the FO is unknown and all we do know is that Venus is playing very well at present against the only people who turned up to play her.

WF4EVER
May 3rd, 2004, 03:56 AM
If most of the top ten are out sick or recovering from one thing or the other why keep insisting that Venus' true mettle will be determined after she has played any or all of them? Does it not make some sense that if these players are on the sidelines (obviously most are out for illness or injuries) that Venus' current form would give her an advantage?

I thought we had determined months ago when Justine was winning everything in sight that it was totally unfair to compare how she'd match up against the sisters because they weren't there to validate it? Was it her fault that they weren't playing? Not unless she's Tonya Hardenne.

This is utter nonesense, IMO, to keep harping about Venus not playing a top-tenner. Like dg said some of them have yet to win a title. In the same way some are sick, so if Venus beats Kim, for arguments sake, will we not hear the immediate defense that Kim was sick or recovering from an injury. You can not have it both ways, you know, even tho the sword is always double-edged for the sisters.

She has beaten some pretty good players IMO, on her worst surface supposedly, and having done so there should be no question left about her form. She's playing well; deal with it.

Kuznetsova was supposed to be the best thing since vodka, she'd been playing great all year and had been giving the world No. 1 fits, beating her once, and beating Venus in Dubai. I even read on these very boards that she was good enough to make GS champion in the near future, so now that Venus has handled her like she should be handled, why is she suddenly not good enough a measuring stick? Oh, she was injured. I forgot. Well I suppose Schiavone could explain the scoreline by which she lost in the very same way!

Venus beat ZV twice in a row and suddenly this new Russian vodka is flat. The same vodka that downed Venus in the FO last year. It seems to me that when these players are winning they're the greatest thing on earth but after a spanking by Venus they weren't worth diddly and even less is thought of Venus' victory over them.

ptkten
May 3rd, 2004, 05:42 AM
What's interesting about those numbers is Justine and Lindsay account for 9 of 14 of the top ten's wins against top 10 players, Justine with 6, Lindsay with 3.

Lady
May 3rd, 2004, 09:45 AM
Yes, Justine defeated every top 10 player, she played this year! :clap2:
Impressive! :)

The only top player Lindsay lost to was Justine! ;)

Mike
May 3rd, 2004, 09:52 AM
Yes, Justine defeated every top 10 player, she played this year! :clap2:
Impressive! :)

The only top player Lindsay lost to was Justine! ;)
Justine lost to Momo, but still very impressive well done Justine :bigclap: and congrats to Momo :bigclap:

sartrista7
May 3rd, 2004, 09:55 AM
Since "haters" are barking that Venus hasn't beaten top 10 this year...let's look at the top 10 vs. top 10

Adidas International
QF
Henin def. Rubin
Davenport def. Dementieva
Mauresmo def. Myskina
F
Henin def. Mauresmo

Australian
QF
Henin def. Davenport
Clijsters def. Myskina
F
Henin def. Clijsters

Indian Wells
SF
Henin def. Myskina
F
Henin def. Davenport

Miami
F
Serena def. Dementieva

Amelia Island
QF
Petrova def. Serena
SF
Mauresmo def. Henin
Davenport def. Petrova
F
Davenport def. Mauresmo

only 14 matches between top 10ers. :eek: :eek:

You forgot Myskina def. Capriati in Doha... if you are going to use stats to prove a point please get the stats right :rolleyes:

I thought we had determined months ago when Justine was winning everything in sight that it was totally unfair to compare how she'd match up against the sisters because they weren't there to validate it?

Well... I seem to remember a lot of people here taking the opposite view. You're right and they're wrong, though.

Greenout
May 3rd, 2004, 09:58 AM
If most of the top ten are out sick or recovering from one thing or the other why keep insisting that Venus' true mettle will be determined after she has played any or all of them? Does it not make some sense that if these players are on the sidelines (obviously most are out for illness or injuries) that Venus' current form would give her an advantage?

I thought we had determined months ago when Justine was winning everything in sight that it was totally unfair to compare how she'd match up against the sisters because they weren't there to validate it? Was it her fault that they weren't playing? Not unless she's Tonya Hardenne.

This is utter nonesense, IMO, to keep harping about Venus not playing a top-tenner. Like dg said some of them have yet to win a title. In the same way some are sick, so if Venus beats Kim, for arguments sake, will we not hear the immediate defense that Kim was sick or recovering from an injury. You can not have it both ways, you know, even tho the sword is always double-edged for the sisters.

She has beaten some pretty good players IMO, on her worst surface supposedly, and having done so there should be no question left about her form. She's playing well; deal with it.

Kuznetsova was supposed to be the best thing since vodka, she'd been playing great all year and had been giving the world No. 1 fits, beating her once, and beating Venus in Dubai. I even read on these very boards that she was good enough to make GS champion in the near future, so now that Venus has handled her like she should be handled, why is she suddenly not good enough a measuring stick? Oh, she was injured. I forgot. Well I suppose Schiavone could explain the scoreline by which she lost in the very same way!

Venus beat ZV twice in a row and suddenly this new Russian vodka is flat. The same vodka that downed Venus in the FO last year. It seems to me that when these players are winning they're the greatest thing on earth but after a spanking by Venus they weren't worth diddly and even less is thought of Venus' victory over them.


W4 - it's true. Everyone can take these facts and make the glass
look half empty or half full. I will say this...it's really not one
way or the other; but both. Let me explain in terms of your rave.
Yes, Venus was injured. Yes, Sveta did become a better player.
True, Venus did beat the on the verge of greatness Sveta; but
you have to realize that a) Venus has improved her form since
she played Sveta at Dubai. b) Sveta has beaten Justine; but
went on to lose to Myskina and again to the current number
at IW.

My point?

We can give merit to both sides. Yes, Venus did regain some form.
We will never know if she will be as great as her best moments; but
it's good enough right now to beat the "on the verge" girls. We cannot
minus any bonus cookies to Venus because Sveta isn't Kim. In my
opinion it was a good solid win. Congrats Venus.

Yes, Sveta has not won any titles this year; but on the average her
results are very impressive. She has made good runs in Dubai,
Doha and Warsaw, only to lose to an experience player like Myskina
or a classier one in Venus and Justine. Sveta despite her loss is
still on the rise and on the verge.

I'm not going to take anything away from Venus or Sveta from
Warsaw.

Lady
May 3rd, 2004, 09:59 AM
Justine lost to Momo, but still very impressive well done Justine :bigclap: and congrats to Momo :bigclap:

She defeated Momo in Sydney, so I was right saying she beat every top player she played this year. I didn't say every time ;)

Greenout
May 3rd, 2004, 10:02 AM
So, can we finally say this week and lay down our arms that
the WTA looks to have depth? Isn't it looking like the so called
deeper ATP tour now?

Sveta got the ugly 6-1 scoreline;but the very fact that people
thought she might win shows some sort of depth, right?


I'm just tired of all this whinging up at GM. Let's just all hope
there's more women's matches on tv at RG. This is what
we need!!!!!!!

controlfreak
May 3rd, 2004, 12:51 PM
Perhaps it would be more interesting to look at the Top 10 of the 2004 Race rather than the rankings?

charmedRic
May 3rd, 2004, 12:57 PM
CurName/CountryRank PtsTours
1HENIN-HARDENNE, JUSTINE (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=80350)BEL2287.006
2DAVENPORT, LINDSAY (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=40106)USA1515.006
3CLIJSTERS, KIM (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=30458)BEL1192.004
4KUZNETSOVA, SVETLANA (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=110552)RUS1047.008
5WILLIAMS, VENUS (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=230220)USA1040.006
6MYSKINA, ANASTASIA (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=130533)RUS945.005
7SCHNYDER, PATTY (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=190519)SUI836.008
8MAURESMO, AMELIE (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=130450)FRA790.004
9ZVONAREVA, VERA (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=260142)RUS742.009
10FARINA ELIA, SILVIA (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=60061)ITA704.009

11DECHY, NATHALIE (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=40254)FRA652.007
12ZULUAGA, FABIOLA (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=260078)COL634.007
13PETROVA, NADIA (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=160379)RUS612.006
14DANIILIDOU, ELENI (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=40313)GRE595.0010
15DEMENTIEVA, ELENA (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=40289)RUS563.007
16MALEEVA, MAGDALENA (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=130245)BUL556.0010
17WILLIAMS, SERENA (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=230234)USA551.003
18MARTINEZ, CONCHITA (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=130113)ESP547.008
19SPREM, KAROLINA (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=190881)CRO530.009
20RAYMOND, LISA (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=180144)USA506.007

21SCHIAVONE, FRANCESCA (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=190666)ITA495.009
22SUAREZ, PAOLA (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=190360)ARG480.007
23BENESOVA, IVETA (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=20576)CZE456.009
24LOIT, EMILIE (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=120277)FRA450.0011
25SUGIYAMA, AI (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=190353)JPN448.008
26GOLOVIN, TATIANA (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=310774)FRA446.004
27SAFINA, DINARA (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=190950)RUS413.007
28FRAZIER, AMY (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=60034)USA393.008
29JANKOVIC, JELENA (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=100153)SCG376.0010
29MANDULA, PETRA (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=130443)HUN376.0010

31PRATT, NICOLE (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=160078)AUS374.008
32BRANDI, KRISTINA (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=20323)PUR370.007

Mike
May 3rd, 2004, 03:20 PM
She defeated Momo in Sydney, so I was right saying she beat every top player she played this year. I didn't say every time ;)
ooooh sorry :o Well done Justine :bigclap: