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View Full Version : Well I got my answer to the "Why isn't Venus going to the net more?" question


Rocketta
May 1st, 2004, 09:50 PM
Oracene is there with her. I can't stress enough how different their practices are when Oracene is there and when Richard is there. :sad: Thank God, Venus has some confidence now. :yeah:

Richard practiced net play with Venus over and over in Charleston. I guess it was in the front of her mind. I'm wondering if the same things are going on in practice now.

Wasn't the fed cup on red clay? She came to net a lot. I don't think it's the clay or her opponent. I think it's Venus' mindset. :sad:

Go to the net Vee...talk to daddy. :angel:

joao
May 1st, 2004, 10:24 PM
You're so right. If I could I'd rep you again! :) Oh well ... I'll have to wait another 20 rep rounds!;)

GANGSTABACKHAND!
May 1st, 2004, 10:33 PM
I was just talking with my tennis buddy this morning. he said "venus is playing really well" and my reply was " Richard is there with her!!". I love the team of Venus and Richard, it seem that Richard is more cable of getting Venus to do certain things that Oracene may not be able to. I'm sure that Venus and Serena aren't coached the exact same way. I get the feeling that Richard makes them really put the hours in on the practice courts!! I'm just so happy that my girl is doing so well right now, she deserves it and so do all of her true fans who stick by her during her down times!! By the way, is it too soon to label Venus a "clay court specialist" lol!! or does this title require a FO title??!!

harloo
May 1st, 2004, 10:46 PM
Remember when Serena was falling all over the place at Wimby when she was playing Els Callens? Well the next day she said she called her dad to ask him what she was doing wrong, he told her and when she played Chanda the next day she did not have a problem with her footing at all.

Richard is so knowledgable of tennis techniques, and I think Venus needs that guidance more than Serena. Venus makes a lot of technical errors at times, so I would prefer Richard to be there to straighten them out and to help her improve those parts that are always breaking down.

Oracene is alright, but I just don't think she pushes the girls like Richard does.

Ryan
May 1st, 2004, 10:51 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Oracene told her NOT to come to net just because Richard told her to come to net. Or maybe Venus doesn't want to practice things her dad is helping her with in front of her mom to not hurt her feelings? This is all just rambling because it's very hard to judge the dynamics in a seperated family.

Rocketta
May 1st, 2004, 10:52 PM
You're so right. If I could I'd rep you again! :) Oh well ... I'll have to wait another 20 rep rounds!;)
Oh Well....:sad:

I can wait. :angel:

Soooo I'll see the rep in the next 6 months? :p

j/k...;)

Rocketta
May 1st, 2004, 10:57 PM
Well I've seen Serena practice with Richard and I've seen Serena practice with Oracene and well there is no comparison. I've only seen Venus practice with Richard but it was very much like the Serena session I saw.

Richard is involved in the practice. He instructs the hitting partner where to hit and what parts of the game to work on. Oracene sits and talks to Kerry...:o Serena just hit with the hitting partner but other than practicing her serve there was no structure. She just hit with the guys.

Maybe this is why Venus and Serena seem to have the european hitting partner and doesn't use the guys provided by the tournaments? I mean maybe Zoltan has specific instructions from Richard to work on certain things, ala he's a temp type coach? :confused:

:topic:

Zoltan is :drool:

Venus Forever
May 1st, 2004, 11:57 PM
I definitely think is which coach is there affects the mindset of Venus. I don't know if it's Oracene and Richard teach two different styles, I don't know if Venus just feels more motivated with Richard, or whether she's afraid of Richard, or whether she just thinks she won't get chastized if Oracene is there.

It sure is strange though. In Charleston, with Richard, Venus was running to the net at every chance she got, and at Fed Cup with Billie Jean King and Zina Garrison, she was doing the same. Then, when Oracene takes over, she's rarely up there.

:confused:

tennisIlove09
May 2nd, 2004, 12:15 AM
For the sake of Venus, I hope Richard goes to Paris.

Pureracket
May 2nd, 2004, 12:21 AM
Richard isn't that fond of flying is he?

LindsayRocks89
May 2nd, 2004, 12:23 AM
lets just hope Richard is in Paris

Venus Forever
May 2nd, 2004, 12:25 AM
Richard isn't that fond of flying is he?
Nope.

He rarely EVER goes over seas.

I imagine he went with them when they were younger, but not now.

Wimbledon is really the only tournament he flies to that's over seas, and even last year, he wasn't going to go. Serena, however, convinced him to go, and the year before, he was sick I believe.

tennisIlove09
May 2nd, 2004, 12:25 AM
Richard isn't that fond of flying is he?
No he doesn't. This is why Oracene historically has gone to Australia and Paris. I think Richard likes London, which is why he has been there (With the exception of 2002)

WF4EVER
May 2nd, 2004, 01:09 AM
I think that Oracene is not nearly as motivating or effective as Richard but at this stage of her career Venus should know better, she should know what works. She said in a recent interview that she liked how it felt going to the net and winning points at the net. Are you trying to tell me that Oracene should be able to convince Venus to play otherwise if she (Venus) found it to be more successful.

I agree that Richard is the real coach and has a lot more impact on the girls' improvement. As far as I'm concerned Orancene just travels with them because he can't, as a support base both morally and as family; it must be difficult for these players to be away from home for such long periods and only being able to communicate with their families by phone, so they (who can afford to have it) need a family member there. I was so heartened to read today that both Sjeng Schalken and Marat Safin (although I'm jealous as hell) have their female companions with them. It helps, you know.

But a coach Oracene is not, and if Venus dares to listen to advice she knows isn't best for her it'll be her own undoing. Maybe Richard can catch a boat to Paris and get there in time for RG, huh?

Go, Venus, do the right thing not the politically correct thing.

maccardel
May 2nd, 2004, 01:17 AM
I think that Richard let the sisters know he have confidence in them and is honest at how he rates their performances. I imagine Oracene is only telling them to do the best and such, but it is not the same as Richard. Just look at his interviews after the matches and how he says that the sisters either had the match or didn't do this to win. He rarely says the person outplays the sisters. He blames the sisters for the lost and that is mental. It gives them a mental edge that every match is theirs to lose.

VRULES
May 2nd, 2004, 03:03 AM
Well she did come to net at Charleston, and Fed Cup so I don't think she forgot. SHe even said this past weekend, week that she liked coming to net and wanted to do it more in her update, I think she hasn't forgotten, but now that she has her confidence back with her game she doesn't need the net. If she losses to Lindsay, Serena, Momo, Justine, or Kim and doesn't come to net then I would say she might have forgotten.

However has anyone thought that maybe her approach shots are being Forced errors or winners by themselves. That would mean she was on her way in and already won the point, meaning it wasn't a net point. I think it is a little of both her confidence back and her approaches being good.

Rocketta
May 2nd, 2004, 03:11 AM
Well she did come to net at Charleston, and Fed Cup so I don't think she forgot. SHe even said this past weekend, week that she liked coming to net and wanted to do it more in her update, I think she hasn't forgotten, but now that she has her confidence back with her game she doesn't need the net. If she losses to Lindsay, Serena, Momo, Justine, or Kim and doesn't come to net then I would say she might have forgotten.

However has anyone thought that maybe her approach shots are being Forced errors or winners by themselves. That would mean she was on her way in and already won the point, meaning it wasn't a net point. I think it is a little of both her confidence back and her approaches being good.
um, I'll have to watch the semi-final again but I don't think it was a case of her approach shots being so good that she won the point before she got to the net. I don't think going to the net is natural to her and since it is not a natural tendency it has to be drilled in her. It's like a bad habit. You can go 21 days without doing your bad habit and then one day something happens and you are back with the bad habit like it never left. That's how I see Venus and the net. Her natural tendency to hit from the baseline and will revert back to that when allowed.

Hopefully, Richard saw the tape on The Tennis Channel and called his daughter. ;)

What I liked about Venus going to the net was it kept her aggressive. I think she struggles with being aggressive enough and rushing the net is all out aggression. Hanging around the baseline allows her to not be aggressive. That's worrying. I hope she wins tomorrow whether she stays at the baseline or rushes the net but I hope Richard gets a hold of her soon and she starts back with the net game.

Oh Why Oh Why doesn't Richard like to fly...:sad: :sad:

Rocketta
May 2nd, 2004, 03:14 AM
It sure is strange though. In Charleston, with Richard, Venus was running to the net at every chance she got, and at Fed Cup with Billie Jean King and Zina Garrison, she was doing the same. Then, when Oracene takes over, she's rarely up there.

:confused:
Yeah I think it's interesting too. We'll have to see tomorrow if Venus ups her net play or if she even has to.

I wonder what happened to Oracene, she broke her wrist or hand or something.

Knizzle
May 2nd, 2004, 03:14 AM
Venus said she liked it at the net. I don't understand why she is not going there. I'm sure she will be talking to Richard. She usually does after matches.

Rocketta
May 2nd, 2004, 03:23 AM
I think that Oracene is not nearly as motivating or effective as Richard but at this stage of her career Venus should know better, she should know what works. She said in a recent interview that she liked how it felt going to the net and winning points at the net. Are you trying to tell me that Oracene should be able to convince Venus to play otherwise if she (Venus) found it to be more successful.

I think like most of us we do what we feel comfortable doing when we don't think about it. I think she's just reverting to natural instincts. To play tennis like she has for the majority of her life from the baseline. To change that mindset will take more than a couple of tournaments.....It will take a constant reminder and someone riding you to make the change. I don't think Oracene talks tactical tennis at all to be frank with you. I think she doesn't get in to it. The girls say their mother is a coach but when I tell you Oracene barely glanced Serena's way in practice I wouldn't be making up *ish. A coach who is involved in the tatical aspects of a player's game wouldn't be that disinterested in the practice session.

I think Richard the tennis coach has decided that Net play is where and how Venus is going to get back to the top. I think Venus believes that as well but habits are habits and they are hard to break. This is for the long haul not for instant success. We know Venus can win with her old game but it will not get her to the next level. That is what her net play was for. I think Oracene doesn't involve herself with that kind of stuff. I wish Richard was there. I know if Richard was there Venus would be coming into the net a whole lot more than she is now.

Rocketta
May 2nd, 2004, 03:24 AM
Venus said she liked it at the net. I don't understand why she is not going there. I'm sure she will be talking to Richard. She usually does after matches.
I wonder if she is spending the time in practice on it like she was...:confused:

Knizzle
May 2nd, 2004, 03:28 AM
I wonder if she is spending the time in practice on it like she was...:confused:
I don't know. I just hope she is back there at the French. As little as she is coming to net in this tourney, it almost seems like there is a change in strategy. I think she needs to go to net to beat Sveta easily. Otherwise she may get stretched. What is your analysis after watching the match?? Also how is Sveta playing?

Rocketta
May 2nd, 2004, 03:36 AM
I don't know. I just hope she is back there at the French. As little as she is coming to net in this tourney, it almost seems like there is a change in strategy. I think she needs to go to net to beat Sveta easily. Otherwise she may get stretched. What is your analysis after watching the match?? Also how is Sveta playing?
I only watched a little of the Sveta match...It's hard to judge how she's playing because Schiavone was playing so bad Sveta didn't have to do much to win.

The Venus/Zvonareva match wasn't a good one...Venus missed a lot of shots, backhands mainly..but Vera was playing below par as well. Venus would pick it up here and there and put short balls away but it wasn't a conscious effort to get to the net.

K-Dog
May 2nd, 2004, 03:44 AM
I don't know. I just hope she is back there at the French. As little as she is coming to net in this tourney, it almost seems like there is a change in strategy. I think she needs to go to net to beat Sveta easily. Otherwise she may get stretched. What is your analysis after watching the match?? Also how is Sveta playing?


I wouldn't say that Sveta played outstanding today against Schiavone. Fran was a little fatigued from her Momo match, and she began a little bit of cramping. Sveta had problems with high balls to her backhand, and was a little ornery on the court at times. Sveta played her normal baseline attack.(huge forehand and average backhands) Fran doesn't have the power, nor the ability to hit hard shots on the run like Venus. Venus has a better serve than Fran, more power than Fran, more power on the run than Fran, and basically more talent than Fran.

If Venus plays good(not great, but good) Venus should win in two tight sets. No one has the power to rush and attack Sveta like Venus. Venus needs to attack Sveta's serve and backhand at will tommorrow!! But, Venus' lack to want to come to net might give Sveta more chances to win. Venus should win the match, but don't be surprised if Sveta pulls the upset. GO VENUS!! Win your second title!!

harloo
May 2nd, 2004, 04:00 AM
When I think about it maybe Venus did not feel she needed to come to the net against Vera. Hopefully that is the case, and she starts bum rushing the net again. I think she knows her comfort level, and if you notice when playing Conchita in the FCC finals Vee started really coming in 2nd set. She is confident so she will figure it out, watch!!:)

tennisIlove09
May 2nd, 2004, 04:02 AM
When I think about it maybe Venus did not feel she needed to come to the net against Vera. Hopefully that is the case, and she starts bum rushing the net again. I think she knows her comfort level, and if you notice when playing Conchita in the FCC finals Vee started really coming in 2nd set. She is confident so she will figure it out, watch!!:)
Well said. Maybe that's her plan B.

Rocketta
May 2nd, 2004, 04:04 AM
When I think about it maybe Venus did not feel she needed to come to the net against Vera. Hopefully that is the case, and she starts bum rushing the net again. I think she knows her comfort level, and if you notice when playing Conchita in the FCC finals Vee started really coming in 2nd set. She is confident so she will figure it out, watch!!:)
yeah but we don't want anymore 2-6 first sets....:tape:

Figure it out in the hotel Venus...;)

harloo
May 2nd, 2004, 04:15 AM
yeah but we don't want anymore 2-6 first sets....:tape:

Figure it out in the hotel Venus...;)
Venus ain't perfect Rockie, but I feel ya. :D I don't think I can take anymore of the on the edge first sets. But I also feel that it's good for Venus to get the extra match play where she has to change up tactics. I am not as frightened as I use to be when she loses the first set, because Vee is a slow starter sometimes and I know she will give her all in the 2nd and 3rd. Hope she keeps bum rushing the net though, it's easier than all those baseline rallies.:wavey:

Rocketta
May 2nd, 2004, 04:21 AM
Venus ain't perfect Rockie, but I feel ya. :D I don't think I can take anymore of the on the edge first sets. But I also feel that it's good for Venus to get the extra match play where she has to change up tactics. I am not as frightened as I use to be when she loses the first set, because Vee is a slow starter sometimes and I know she will give her all in the 2nd and 3rd. Hope she keeps bum rushing the net though, it's easier than all those baseline rallies.:wavey:I don't know where you're getting your info from but Venus is PERFECT! :lol:

j/k!!

I know what you mean. It was great to see Venus raise her game and come back. Well she did that enough in Charleston. I'm ready for a whole lot of frontrunning.. :hehehe:

Paneru
May 2nd, 2004, 04:22 AM
Some of yall need to chill! :cool: ;) :lol:

Vee knows what she's doing.
So, she didn't come to net that much in her last two matches,
big deal. She's a baseliner and she's feeling more confident
to be able to slug it out! That doesn't mean she won't be coming into net.

IMO, Venus has become a craftier player.
She's a true baseliner and always will be but,
I suspect we'll see her coming to net more
when the opponent warrants it or when plan A isn't working.

Back in the 2000 Wimbledon Finals Chris talked about Venus
being able to only play one way, I don't think that is the case anymore.

That being said, I do prefer when Richard is with her but, she's a big
girl and always knows he's only a phone call away!

Venus is full of confidence and has a wide range of
weapons to choose from in her repitoire and I think she'll be just fine.

Pureracket
May 2nd, 2004, 04:49 AM
Kabuke,
Why, when folks start to analyze aspects of Vee's game and noting the things that she didn't do perfectly, you take it as a sign that people aren't true fans? Not necessarily from here, but many posts when we site that Venus has had to "step it up"?

Paneru
May 2nd, 2004, 05:26 AM
Kabuke,
Why, when folks start to analyze aspects of Vee's game and noting the things that she didn't do perfectly, you take it as a sign that people aren't true fans? Not necessarily from here, but many posts when we site that Venus has had to "step it up"?

Hold up, rewind! :cool:
What??? :confused:

When have I ever said or acted like someone wasn't a true fan when
I posted something that may be in opposition?

My point was plain and simple,
people are over analyzing here!

So she didn't come to net as much in the last two matches,
is it time to sound the alarms? I think not.

Fact is, Venus is a baseliner!
This is the nature of her game, it's what she has been all her career.
Venus hasn't felt as good physically for quite sometime and getting to net has help with that. However, the more she feels close to 100% physically it's only logical that she start back with slugging it out at the baseline, which as I said is the foundation of her game.

Now, that doesn't mean she can't, won't, or should stop coming to net.
She's feeling more comfortable at net but for the time being it doesn't come as natural as her slugging it out from the baseline game!

I just feel people may be overreacting a bit.
She's smart enough to know when she's gonna need what and when.

Yes, I'd like her to come to net all the time or as much as possible,
ends points quicker and easier. Also, means she doesn't have to tax her body as much. However, I'm just fine with things progressing gradually.

It was only a few months ago that people were doubting wheather Venus could get back or even win a tournament. Now we fast forward a few months and the script is flipped.

Analyzing and critiscim is a good thing but, for me just now I'm appreciating and enjoying her enjoying the game and playing well.
I just feel that people want or expect too much too fast and don't stop to simply enjoy something that many were doubting would happen just a while ago.

That's just my take and if you don't like it,
I'm sorry.

Rocketta
May 2nd, 2004, 05:31 AM
Well that's your take Kabuke but I think most of the people that has posted in this thread have enjoyed every bit of Venus' recent success and were stedfast with support when things weren't going well. Still doesn't mean that her game was headed in one direction just last week and now suddenly it's headed in the old direction. We discuss stuff on this site that's the point of the site isn't it? It's one thing to waste your time discussing (just my opinionn) on what slam is the best and it's another to discuss the current direction of your favs game...

Knizzle
May 2nd, 2004, 05:37 AM
You DO do that sometimes Kabuke. Just because we are giving constructive criticisms and observations of Vee's techniques or strategies doesn't mean we don't believe in her or her game any less. I know I do. She may have had a change in strategy, but she is still winning easily. I think she should continue to go to net because it will make her different from others on the tour who stay at the baseline. When Venus gets down in a match, the first thing she does is go to the net more. This week though, she may not have been challenged enough. I think some of us just want to see her continue to play that way because it's a beautiful game and it shows that she is moving forward with her tennis instead of staying the same.

Paneru
May 2nd, 2004, 05:38 AM
Well that's your take Kabuke but I think most of the people that has posted in this thread have enjoyed every bit of Venus' recent success and were stedfast with support when things weren't going well. Still doesn't mean that her game was headed in one direction just last week and now suddenly it's headed in the old direction. We discuss stuff on this site that's the point of the site isn't it? It's one thing to waste your time discussing (just my opinionn) on what slam is the best and it's another to discuss the current direction of your favs game...

:lol:
When did I ever suggest that things couldn't or
shouldn't be discussed, really! This is a discussion board
and that's is what you do. :cool:

I just feel it's kind of silly to sound an alarm simply
becuase she didn't come into net as much as we'd
like in the last two matches. :)

Like I said, it's just my opinion of the
situation as your's is your opinion. If people
agree then they do, if not then they dont.

Well, I guess we'll just have to agree
to disagree then. :wavey:

Paneru
May 2nd, 2004, 05:41 AM
You DO do that sometimes Kabuke. Just because we are giving constructive criticisms and observations of Vee's techniques or strategies doesn't mean we don't believe in her or her game any less. I know I don't. She may have had a change in strategy, but she is still winning easily. I think she should continue to go to net because it will make her different from others on the tour who stay at the baseline. When Venus gets down in a match, the first thing she does is go to the net more. This week though, she may not have been challenged enough. I think some of us just want to see her continue to play that way because it's a beautiful game and it shows that she is moving forward with her tennis instead of staying the same.

Maybe I do, sorry.

It's only natural that one's nature not be changed over night
but doesn't show staying the same just because they may revert at times.

I agree, I want her at the net as much as possible!
I just don't feel there's a need for concern or worry at this time,
maybe it is just me.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree as well. :wavey:

Knizzle
May 2nd, 2004, 05:45 AM
Rocketta I just thought of something. If Vee had her thigh taped, maybe she isn't charging the net because of that. It may be hard to bend or slide into those volleys. She said she feels good, but she says that all the time.

Rocketta
May 2nd, 2004, 05:48 AM
Rocketta I just thought of something. If Vee had her thigh taped, maybe she isn't charging the net because of that. It may be hard to bend or slide into those volleys. She said she feels good, but she says that all the time.
hmm, that is possible. :scratch: Although she wasn't going to the net before they wrapped the thigh. However, her thigh might've been bothering her early on and she just didn't have it wrapped.

If it is hampering her from going to the net then I hope she pulls out next week cause that means she's not healthy and I want her to be healthy going into the French Open. :)

ico4498
May 2nd, 2004, 05:58 AM
i thought Kabuke's posts were spot on and i'm not trying to police Vee's fans.

i don't think there's any desperation in Venus' attempts to broaden her game. i also think she'd limit herself with a classic serve and volley game. Vee's got other, well established skills. she can save plan B for a rainy day.

Rocketta
May 2nd, 2004, 06:36 AM
i thought Kabuke's posts were spot on and i'm not trying to police Vee's fans.

i don't think there's any desperation in Venus' attempts to broaden her game. i also think she'd limit herself with a classic serve and volley game. Vee's got other, well established skills. she can save plan B for a rainy day.
Who said anything about Venus becoming a classic serve and volley player? :confused:

How is that the same as questioning why she is not coming into the net more like she was last week?

Venus will never be a classic serve and volleyer and I don't know anyone who thinks she will.

Also, "desperation in Venus' attempts to broaden her game"....you lost me on that one?

If you hadn't noticed but Venus established skills lost her 5 slam finals in the past couple of years, which is a good result but I know that is not good enough for Venus. She needs to improve and work on her game that means adding stuff. I'm proud that she seems willing to do that despite maybe slipping into her old ways recently.

Most of the top players are adding new elements to their games and Venus should be no different. Venus going to the net shouldn't be a plan b or used on a rainy day. It should be a tatic that she uses like her backhand down the line shot.

Like Kabuke said we'll agree to disagree on this one.

ico4498
May 2nd, 2004, 07:20 AM
"Like Kabuke said we'll agree to disagree on this one."

not sure how much we disagree, except possibly the importance attached to the net point hunt.

agreed, losing slam finals should have Vee's attention. but there's small urgency (desperation) at least until Serena is at the other end of the net.

btw ... luv your sig.!

Rocketta
May 2nd, 2004, 03:58 PM
"Like Kabuke said we'll agree to disagree on this one."

not sure how much we disagree, except possibly the importance attached to the net point hunt.

agreed, losing slam finals should have Vee's attention. but there's small urgency (desperation) at least until Serena is at the other end of the net.

btw ... luv your sig.!
Thanks...:wavey:

the cat
May 2nd, 2004, 04:28 PM
If Venus learned to consistently to come to the net when she's in contriol of a point she would have easy volley's to put away and be an even better player than she is. But like all WTA players she's more comfortable at the baseline.

The bottom line is that Venus has found her form and winning ways again. And that's good for women's tennis. Women's tennis needs all the shining stars it can get. And Venus' star is shining brightly again. :D

Rocketta
May 2nd, 2004, 04:32 PM
I agree, the cat! It can make her life easier and her opponents just that much tougher. I'm sure Richard will get her back to it.

I'm just glad her return game has well returned. That is something she struggled with mightily in Charleston along with her forehand.

the cat
May 2nd, 2004, 05:35 PM
Rocky, Venus needs to return well to beat the top players and win another slam. She can do it. And winning some easy points at the net will keep her baseline bashing game from wearing down.

Rocketta
May 2nd, 2004, 05:37 PM
Rocky, Venus needs to return well to beat the top players and win another slam. She can do it. And winning some easy points at the net will keep her baseline bashing game from wearing down.
yeah I agree again. It was very frustrating seeing Vee not be able to return Samantha Reeves serves...:unsure:

I'm glad it seems to be clicking now...I can't wait to watch the match. :D

joeshmo50
May 2nd, 2004, 06:21 PM
"However has anyone thought that maybe her approach shots are being Forced errors or winners by themselves. That would mean she was on her way in and already won the point, meaning it wasn't a net point. I think it is a little of both her confidence back and her approaches being good."

That is a good point. Also, maybe J&S Cup stats don't count certain times at being at the net. Plus, she has been playing well from the baseline, and if she comes into the net too much, her opponents will start to expect it more and possilby become more used to it. She needs that net thing to be a surprise for her opponents so this way they give her an easy volley, ya know? We'll see how it goes at the German Open.