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View Full Version : Torture in Iraq


Helas
Apr 30th, 2004, 07:52 PM
No not Saddam:eek: http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444

Allez-H
Apr 30th, 2004, 08:01 PM
Yep,Irak has been saved....

Halardfan
Apr 30th, 2004, 09:18 PM
The story and photos that go with it, wasn't really picked up by the majority of US outlets, while its front page news here in Britain the US papers haven't run with it yet...hopefully the anger around the world will push the story back to the top of the news.

They were certainly depressing pictures, the glee on the faces of the US soliders maybe the most disturbing thing of all.

Ballbuster
Apr 30th, 2004, 09:22 PM
Yes, Western Media is biased a hell, that's why I listen to AirAmericaRadio.com

Bush has our media on lockdown. That's screwed up.

Shuji Shuriken
Apr 30th, 2004, 10:44 PM
;) :angel: ;)

Hulet
Apr 30th, 2004, 11:04 PM
Thanks Ho' Down.

ttaM
Apr 30th, 2004, 11:08 PM
The story and photos that go with it, wasn't really picked up by the majority of US outlets, while its front page news here in Britain the US papers haven't run with it yet...hopefully the anger around the world will push the story back to the top of the news.

They were certainly depressing pictures, the glee on the faces of the US soliders maybe the most disturbing thing of all.The pics and the story of what happened was shown on the TV News program '60 Minutes II' here in the U.S. From what I understand the Brig. General in charge of the prison, and the soldiers that were pictured along with the prisoners face disciplinary charges.

Read here:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1098037.htm

Shuji Shuriken
Apr 30th, 2004, 11:14 PM
p.s. I don't read or watch the news about war in Iraq anymore. It's just sad to watch them fuck those poor people up anymore :rolleyes:.

flyingmachine
Apr 30th, 2004, 11:27 PM
This is a DIRTY WAR :( As simple as that!
Ah yeah there are also pictures of Iraqis torture by British soldiers. It's in the front page news of Daily Mirror. Just read this.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3675215.stm

Seles_Beckham
May 1st, 2004, 12:18 AM
OMG !!!

This is just sad. And American are asking why people don't like them ?? Look at this.

Kirt12255
May 1st, 2004, 01:00 AM
:rolleyes: Nothing will be torture like that Cock Head with the Mo delivered. These people lived (and as gross as those pictures are)...under Sadaam Insane, women were raped then killed and her fingers sent back to her family in a box.

I'm not saying those pics are right or just.....give the country 10 years and they will have a better life. Each and every one of those people in those pics should face a court and be dealt with...American or not. IMO

Bright Red
May 1st, 2004, 03:58 AM
OMG !!!

This is just sad. And American are asking why people don't like them ?? Look at this.
If those people hate all Americans for what some Americans do, then they just have hate in their hearts. Period. :rolleyes:

wta_zuperfann
May 1st, 2004, 04:50 AM
:fiery: There can be no question that this criminal behavior is but a reflection of the criminal usurper in the White House. He has raped and tortured Iraq to promote his selfish political ambitions and for oil profits. Obviously, he is the role model that these military criminals look up to and emulate.

Raping and torturing POWs and forcing them to engage in homosexual acts for the entertainment of the invaders is merely another example of the Republican party's criminality. If the Republican criminal conspiracy and its continued usurpation of the White House goes unabated, you can expect more invaders to rape and torture each and every nation on earth.

Bush is a political criminal and so is anyone who defends him.



IMPEACH BUSH!!!

BigTennisFan
May 1st, 2004, 05:06 AM
As I posted in another thread, the measure of a society is not whether they have criminals and fools in it. Every society does. Anyone who doesn't understand that, needs to be lobotomized because their brain isn't worth sheep shit in shallow water.

You judge the society by how it responds to those in it who do such dispicable things. I guarantee you that the people who did that asses will be grass at a lawn mower convention. They will be court martialed and they will hopefully get some substantial prison time. :mad:

Meanwhile compare that to the folks who think that when people commit murder in the name of their religion, somehow they should not be expected to denounce the murderers. Yeah, right. :rolleyes:

Bright Red
May 1st, 2004, 05:31 AM
As I posted in another thread, the measure of a society is not whether they have criminals and fools in it. Every society does. Anyone who doesn't understand that, needs to be lobotomized because their brain isn't worth sheep sh!t in shallow water.

You judge the society by how it responds to those in it who do such dispicable things. I guarantee you that the people who did that asses will be grass at a lawn mower convention. They will be court martialed and they will hopefully get some substantial prison time. :mad:

Meanwhile compare that to the folks who think that when people commit murder in the name of their religion, somehow they should not be expected to denounce the murderers. Yeah, right. :rolleyes:
Excellent post; however, it went way over the heads of some folks. It's people who can't see your point who contribute most to creating the problems in the world today. There is absolutely an evil (or stupid) streak in man.

I usually save my breath (or keystrokes). After all, the wise don't need it and the fools won't heed it.

azza
May 1st, 2004, 05:33 AM
Its america of coarse that would happen :)

Brαm
May 1st, 2004, 07:26 AM
Are those men giving each other a blowjob or..? :bolt:

flyingmachine
May 1st, 2004, 09:34 AM
Are those men giving each other a blowjob or..? :bolt:
:scared: :scared: :scared:

BigTennisFan
May 1st, 2004, 06:41 PM
Excellent post; however, it went way over the heads of some folks. It's people who can't see your point who contribute most to creating the problems in the world today. There is absolutely an evil (or stupid) streak in man.

I usually save my breath (or keystrokes). After all, the wise don't need it and the fools won't heed it.
Sadly you're right Bright Red. :sad:

BigTennisFan
May 1st, 2004, 06:43 PM
there is no doubt that those pictures were distasteful. no doubt at all. however, you won't find an army at war anywhere on the globe who hasn't done something similar or worse. the problem with these idiots is that they got it on camera. if anything, they should be court-martialed for being stupid.

however, when i saw those pics, i couldn't help but remember....

1. crowds that cheered during 9/11
2. crowds that cheered while pulling and hanging charred bodies from a bridge
3. insurgents who assassinated an italian contractor they had kidnapped. i wonder...do you think fabrizzio would have preferred having his pic taken nude as opposed to a hole in the head?
4. crowds that cheered when the unidentiable bodies of americans who had been missing days before were pulled out with the hope of using dental records to identify them before shipping them home to their relatives.

btw, btf! :kiss: :wavey:
Well said, as usual DD. :wavey: :hug:

Jeleno Benesovo
May 1st, 2004, 08:12 PM
This is really disgusting and degrading :sad:

This shows to us how low can go the mankind :o
And to try to justify it (insinuating that "shit happens") comparing it with similar atrocities is even lower. The name of what we are seeing is: war crimes :fiery:

Bright Red
May 1st, 2004, 08:23 PM
there is no doubt that those pictures were distasteful. no doubt at all. however, you won't find an army at war anywhere on the globe who hasn't done something similar or worse. the problem with these idiots is that they got it on camera. if anything, they should be court-martialed for being stupid.

however, when i saw those pics, i couldn't help but remember....

1. crowds that cheered during 9/11
2. crowds that cheered while pulling and hanging charred bodies from a bridge
3. insurgents who assassinated an italian contractor they had kidnapped. i wonder...do you think fabrizzio would have preferred having his pic taken nude as opposed to a hole in the head?
4. crowds that cheered when the unidentiable bodies of americans who had been missing days before were pulled out with the hope of using dental records to identify them before shipping them home to their relatives.

btw, btf! :kiss: :wavey:
Bravo. There's definitely a double standard. The sad part is that a vicious cycle is being perpetuated. Who will be first to stop the violence?:sad:

Brαm
May 1st, 2004, 08:31 PM
And to try to justify it (insinuating that "shit happens") comparing it with similar atrocities is even lower.

Well said :(

Jeleno Benesovo
May 1st, 2004, 09:10 PM
i agree with you that they are akin to war crimes, jeleno. no doubt about it. and really? mankind can and has gone even lower than that. however, as much as we hate to admit it, shit does happen. in your normal everyday life as well as in war.

btw...what's wrong with comparing it to similar atrocities? are they war crimes when they happen to iraqi's and not war crimes when much worse happens to italians? :confused:
Nothing wrong comparing similar atrocities by itself, what is wrong and low is to try to justify some crimes comparing them with other crimes, insinuating sth like "hey men they have done brutalities as well, so is not that bad what it is happening". That simply sux.

Sorry but "shit" doesn't needs to happen when is totally avoidable. To admit the opposite is to welcome the "eye for and eye" law, the hate and the brutality instead the reason to solve any problem.

Bright Red
May 1st, 2004, 09:20 PM
sadly? no one. before this war there was kuwait. then there was iran. and the list goes on and on. perpetrating the cycle is not the problem here, br...the cycle has been ongoing since the dawn of time. we are merely at another juncture in the timeline, that's all. as long as man can hate...as long as man is able...man will destroy. history has taught us that. :sad:
History certainly supports what you're saying. I think a "war" should be started to try to change the way things work, and to push for our leaders to make the first move towards world peace. There should be hope that the world can be better despite our track record.

Do I think this will ever happen? I seriously doubt it. But I sure hope so.

Bright Red
May 1st, 2004, 09:49 PM
here's the thing though, br. if a war were started to try to change the way things are, those who are in the "right" would have no choice but to kill and maim into submission those you are in the "wrong".

....and the cycle would begin all over again. :confused:
I meant war in a different sense. No killing. Fight with our votes. Fight with our dollars. I have to believe that mankind is capable of rising above this beast-like existence.

I still think it probably won't happen. Or maybe in 10,000 years if we're even still around.

*JR*
May 1st, 2004, 10:20 PM
A war like this will have "different rules" (as Vietnam did). It's not two armies with rough parity in weaponry, its a much better armed force fighting plainclothes civilians who attack, then melt into civilian populations. (BTW, the coalition admitted something "unsurprising" this week: the actual killers of the 4 burned and hung from that bridge have indeed escaped, despite starting that little Armageddon).

The inability of the "respectable occupier" to deal with the political fallout of "turning (X) into a parking lot" will be used by guerilla forces in any war vs. a democracy in the future (as in the past; Somalia was an example, and Israel was driven from Lebanon this way; a reason Sharon may be waging targeted killings of militants B4 the planned withdrawl from Gaza and most of the West Bank within a year).

So Western forces will really face that "who's friend, who's foe" quandry. The opponents will justify using everything from Houses of Worship as firing posts to human shields as a "force equalizer". Eventually, insurgents will get (or make) crude WMD's and take out hundreds of soldiers in one attack (maybe Iraq, maybe in the "next war"). Globally, things may get much worse B4 they get better.

Bright Red
May 1st, 2004, 10:21 PM
well my friend...:) the problem is, we're all just beasts of a different sort. the two-legged variety. :angel:
:tape:

Colin B
May 1st, 2004, 10:57 PM
I guarantee you that the people who did that asses will be grass at a lawn mower convention. They will be court martialed and they will hopefully get some substantial prison time. :mad:
Courts martial and other military held enquiries tend to result in a short statement about the accused being 'suitably reprimanded' and "we're very sorry; it wont happen again" - end of story.

Full, open enquiries need to be held in Britain and America (and trials held preferably in the International Court - not behind locked doors in Whitehall/The Pentagon) to establish whether there was an official policy at work here, or was it a simple case of regimes set up within the command structures of the individual prisons.

Nothing wrong comparing similar atrocities by itself, what is wrong and low is to try to justify some crimes comparing them with other crimes, insinuating sth like "hey men they have done brutalities as well, so is not that bad what it is happening". That simply sux.Good post! ;)

The thing is, we (Britain, America and all the so-called 'civilised' nations of world) are STATES! We have a responsibility to act in a civilised manner. If we sink to the level of the terrorists, we may as well tear up all the conventions of statehood (not to mention the Geneva convention) and announce a free-for-all, devil-take-the-hindmost contest to see who can act with the most barbarism.


I think a "war" should be started to try to change the way things work, and to push for our leaders to make the first move towards world peace. There should be hope that the world can be better despite our track record.Things can and will improve. We no longer burn old ladies at the stake because they talk to their cats, we in the 'west' have abolished slavery and racial segregation. In Europe we have'nt had a 'bloody good war' for almost sixty years, breaking the old cycles of war/peace/war/peace which had prevailed for hundreds of years.

Things will change

:)

Hulet
May 2nd, 2004, 12:22 AM
...
And to try to justify it (insinuating that "shit happens") comparing it with similar atrocities is even lower. The name of what we are seeing is: war crimes :fiery:
Good to know I am not the only one who thinks so. The people who tried to justify these crimes sound awfully similar to the Holocaust deniers who always compare people slaughtered in Stalin's Russian with Holocaust victims. Ironic, isn't it? :rolleyes:

BigTennisFan
May 2nd, 2004, 03:22 AM
This is really disgusting and degrading :sad:

This shows to us how low can go the mankind :o
And to try to justify it (insinuating that "shit happens") comparing it with similar atrocities is even lower. The name of what we are seeing is: war crimes :fiery:Buffalo shit. Perspective is everything. If you think that having some folks naked is the same as those cretins who murdered the Italian and those pigs who cut off Daniel Pearl's head and videotaped it, then you my friend have no need of your brain.

Not to say that what those US soldiers did should not be punished but to lose perspective is foolish. :tape:

BigTennisFan
May 2nd, 2004, 03:27 AM
History certainly supports what you're saying. I think a "war" should be started to try to change the way things work, and to push for our leaders to make the first move towards world peace. There should be hope that the world can be better despite our track record.

Do I think this will ever happen? I seriously doubt it. But I sure hope so.
I agree. Unfortunately, the only way that humankind will unite is if forced to by something outside of our control. Let's say an asteroid the size of Alaska bearing down on the planet. But then it will be too late.

The only other thing will be if we really find out that we are not alone in the universe. Let's hope that someone as benign as the Vulcans show up first. ;)

A4
May 2nd, 2004, 10:50 AM
Perspective my ass!!!!!!!!
I think a lot of apologists here are trying to divert attention away from the narrow focus of US and British treatment of Iraqi POWs to bring in atrocities committed by the Iraqi insurgents as a way of justifying? (if not to justify, then why bring it in anyway?) or perhaps to indicate Western countries wouldn't kill Italian contractors? I thought we all knew that? Anyway, have it your way. You opened a whole Pandora box now. You want to talk about the thousands of killings carried out by the coalition forces against the Iraqis? Or that isn't really the same because the Iraqis were at the wrong place at the wrong time and the soldiers didn't really mean to kill them right? Well, tell that to the thousands of Iraqi families who watch almost on a daily basis bodies of friends, family and other fellow countrymen being maimed or buried on TV. Last time I checked, not meaning to kill innocent people didn't necessarily mean they will come back to life.And btw, we call that collateral damage in he-man language, where us wonderful cons were born.
So go right ahead. Talk about the actions of the insurgents but be prepared to condemn the actions of US and British soldiers in the same vein.

*JR*
May 2nd, 2004, 12:21 PM
I agree. Unfortunately, the only way that humankind will unite is if forced to by something outside of our control. Let's say an asteroid the size of Alaska bearing down on the planet. But then it will be too late.
We better start working on those photon torpedoes, I guess! ;)

Colin B
May 2nd, 2004, 01:42 PM
Latest on the Daily Mirror photos:

Doubts raised over abuse photos


http://cdn.digitalcity.com/aoluk_articles/0b/03/20040502050309990003.4094ba43-0018c-03c5b-400cbb49



Doubts have been raised over the authenticity of the photos published in the Daily Mirror, which purportedly show an Iraqi captive being beaten by British troops.

The BBC quoted anonymous sources close to the regiment as saying that the gun held by a soldier in the pictures was the wrong type of SA-80 rifle and lacked the sling with which it would be worn by serving troops. A hat seen in the pictures was not of the sort worn by members of the regiment in Iraq, the sources claimed.

The truck in which the scenes took place appeared to be of the wrong type and the alleged victim showed no signs of the sweat, dirt and injuries that could be expected in an arrest followed by violent interrogation, the sources added.

Foreign Secretary Jack Straw has acknowledged that Britain may find itself facing claims for compensation if allegations that its troops abused Iraqi detainees are proved to be true.

However, Mr Straw stressed that the Royal Military Police investigation into the photographs was at a very early stage and that no final judgement on the "awful" scenes depicted had yet been reached.

The Mirror newspaper said they had been received from two soldiers in the Queen's Lancashire Regiment who were horrified at the brutality of a "rogue element" in the Army occupying southern Iraq.

The paper was standing firmly by its story, which alleged that the Iraqi man had been subjected to an eight-hour beating, during which he was urinated on and had his jaw broken and teeth smashed before being dumped from a moving vehicle.

A spokeswoman for the paper said: "We've carried out extensive checks to establish the veracity of the photographs and have no doubts about their authenticity."

Defence sources made clear that the RMP investigation would inevitably involve checks on whether the photos were genuine. But there were no official indications that the inquiry had yet uncovered any reason to doubt them.

Meanwhile, a serving officer claimed that mistreatment of prisoners by British troops was not unheard-of in Iraq and that he was "certain" that brutality like that seen in the photographs had taken place. - AOL UK

Jeleno Benesovo
May 2nd, 2004, 04:49 PM
*ignoring the "wise" reply by Mr. Spock fan"

We all could think that if those US soldiers are accused by the International Community on War Crimes based on clear evidence then they could face a trial to judge them at the International Criminal Court, located at The Hague, Netherlands; Where some war criminals as Slobodan Milosevic (among many war criminals more) are or were judged.

That sounds reasonable; If they are found suspicious (having enough evidence) of war crimes then they should be judged in a neutral place such as the ICC at The Hague. Right? sounds reasonable, isn't? If you live in Holland, then start to shudder, Here is the why of this:

U.S.: 'Hague Invasion Act' Becomes Law
White House "Stops at Nothing" in Campaign Against War Crimes Court
(New York, August 3, 2002) A new law supposedly protecting U.S. servicemembers from the International Criminal Court shows that the Bush administration will stop at nothing in its campaign against the court, Human Rights Watch warned today.

U.S. President George Bush today signed into law the American Servicemembers Protection Act of 2002, which is intended to intimidate countries that ratify the treaty for the International Criminal Court (ICC). The new law authorizes the use of military force to liberate any American or citizen of a U.S.-allied country being held by the court, which is located in The Hague. This provision, dubbed the "Hague invasion clause," has caused a strong reaction from U.S. allies around the world, particularly in the Netherlands.

Read More: http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/08/aspa080302.htm

Have you read it?, do you live in Holland? so what do u think about being invaded by Mr Bush in order to save their "Ramboes"? Think about it, though probably you knew it already.

emptyhead
May 2nd, 2004, 06:20 PM
Now just run that by me again. The AMERICANS invaded Iraq to rescue its citizens from that nasty Saddam Hussein, right?
And to replace him with good old American apple pie values of decency and democracy, right? Hmmm, I thought so too!
That must be why then, they detained suspected insurgents at Abu Ghraib(Saddams most infamous torture prison) and subjected them to foul and brutal abuse. We have all seen by now, the appalling pictures taken by American soldiers as souvenirs.
Prisoners stripped and hooded, forced to pile up in obscene pyramids of naked bodies while their jailers (both male and female) cavort and smirk and point. Many of the photographs cannot be printed in newspapers or shown on television. They depict among other things naked prisoners compelled to simulate sex with each other. A detainee with wires attached to his genitals. Another attacked by a dog.
Heaven only knows what other forms of abuse went on that were not captured by the camera. Things, maybe that even their perpetrators were ashamed of.
I’ve always thought that claims that the Americans were devoid of a sense of irony were unfounded, I’m not so sure now. Try this one on for size!
During the lengthy siege of Fallujah the American marines were adamant that they would crush the insurgency. After sending in helicopter gunships and killing untold hundreds of people including , inevitably civilians, women and children, their commanding officer declared “We are still playing patty cake with these guys. You ain’t seen nothing’ yet.” A few days later guess what?
The marines were pulling out and sending into Fallujah in their stead, a force of a thousand Iraqi troops led by, guess who? One of Saddams former crack generals, General Salah, who used to govern the region for his ghastly master, with all the graft, brutality, torture and murder that that job implies. You couldn’t make it up!
So either the population of Fallujah will be terrorised by Saddams men all over again, or else the American trained soldiers will be going to their certain death, as the entire population rounds on them for being collaborators.
Vietnam was a model of military precision by comparison.