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anabolix
Feb 21st, 2004, 07:27 PM
Former grand slam tennis great Margaret Court continues to publically pursue a bigots agenda against gay people.

She says she "loves them" while impling that they're revolting sinners in the same sentence :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery:

Sad, why not just live and let live.

Lots of gay people in tennis.

please reply if you feel hating on minorities is wrong :)


""""Pastor Court hits gay plan

By Nadia Miraudo
The Sunday Times
January 11, 2004

TENNIS legend and Christian pastor the Reverend Margaret Court has condemned federal Labor's plans to give same-sex couples equal rights and financial status as heterosexual couples.

Attacking the policy, which bans anti-homosexual discrimination in areas including taxation, family law, industrial relations and government benefits, Dr Court said the changes would erode Australia's Christian heritage.

But Dr Court's comments have come under fire for being fundamentalist and discriminatory.

Pride WA co-president Daniel Smith said the ALP's policy would ensure gay and lesbian people would enjoy the same human rights as heterosexual couples.

Dr Court denied her stance was discriminatory, and believed she could help homosexuals change their lifestyle through a Straight Choices course run at her Victory Life Centre in Perth.

But she said the ALP policy threatened the family unit and would play a part in the breakdown of society.

"Our Constitution has been built on Christian principles but we are diluting our values for a minority and our young ones are coming through schools without any Christian values and no idea of what is right and wrong," she said.

"It really saddens me when men in leadership devalue a nation to attract a few votes."

But former federal shadow attorney-general and architect of the policy Robert McClelland said the reforms were designed to support and strengthen genuine relationships.

"They are about putting an end to unfair discrimination in a range of federal laws, consistent with recent reforms to state laws," Mr McClelland said.

Dr Court said if the law was to change, it would demoralise society and confuse children.

She said she did not hate homosexual people. "No, I love them," she said. "I'm there to help them, but just because they do what they do doesn't make it right. It is a sin of the flesh no different to adultery." """"""

emptyhead
Feb 21st, 2004, 07:50 PM
Maybe she'll purchase a computer, register at WtaWorld and get one

anabolix
Feb 21st, 2004, 07:56 PM
As a "christian pastor" I'm pretty sure Margaret Court feels the same way about jews, hindus, muslims, agnostics, blacks, asians and anyone else who isnt white, rich and part of her Church.

emptyhead
Feb 21st, 2004, 08:02 PM
is it true she's David Dukes godmother?

anabolix
Feb 21st, 2004, 08:47 PM
Bump....

people, please endorse or reject Courts stance against gay people....

:-) :) :) :) :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

Andy T
Feb 21st, 2004, 08:49 PM
is it true she's David Dukes godmother?

I just spent an hour and a half typing additions to her career record on a thread in Blast from the Past because I think her achievements in tennis are grossly under appreciated and then I find she's out there denying me (metaphorically speaking as I'm not an Aussie) my rights as a human being.

Well, Margaret, you can rest assured that if this gay "sinner" were making the laws in Australia, I wouldn't give Christians unfair tax disadvantages, inferior legal rights or deny them the possibility to have their partnerships recognised because MY values are for equality before the law. Given that you are in favour of legalised discrimination, maybe it's a damn (excuse the blasphemy) good thing that kids are growing up without your so-called "Christian" values.

Drop the dogma and pick up a racquet, honey: stick to what you're good at!

darren cahill
Feb 21st, 2004, 08:51 PM
I just spent an hour and a half typing additions to her career record on a thread in Blast from the Past because I think her achievements in tennis are grossly under appreciated and then I find she's out there denying me (metaphorically speaking as I'm not an Aussie) my rights as a human being.

Well, Margaret, you can rest assured that if this gay "sinner" were making the laws in Australia, I wouldn't give Christians unfair tax disadvantages, inferior legal rights or deny them the possibility to have their partnerships recognised because MY values are for equality before the law. Given that you are in favour of legalised discrimination, maybe it's a damn (excuse the blasphemy) good thing that kids are growing up without your so-called "Christian" values.

Drop the dogma and pick up a racquet, honey: stick to what you're good at!now THERES my fave crabby ole bitch at his best! (and i mean that with all love and respect Andy:kiss: ---) i totally agree by the way....she could give it a rest once in a while...

irma
Feb 21st, 2004, 08:54 PM
People who call themselves Christians and do nothing then judging others and claim how bad those people are obvious have no clue about the things that Jesus actually did and said :o

anabolix
Feb 21st, 2004, 08:57 PM
I just spent an hour and a half typing additions to her career record on a thread in Blast from the Past because I think her achievements in tennis are grossly under appreciated and then I find she's out there denying me (metaphorically speaking as I'm not an Aussie) my rights as a human being.

Well, Margaret, you can rest assured that if this gay "sinner" were making the laws in Australia, I wouldn't give Christians unfair tax disadvantages, inferior legal rights or deny them the possibility to have their partnerships recognised because MY values are for equality before the law. Given that you are in favour of legalised discrimination, maybe it's a damn (excuse the blasphemy) good thing that kids are growing up without your so-called "Christian" values.

Drop the dogma and pick up a racquet, honey: stick to what you're good at!



AMEN andy

Andy T
Feb 21st, 2004, 09:01 PM
now THERES my fave crabby ole bitch at his best! (and i mean that with all love and respect Andy:kiss: ---) i totally agree by the way....she could give it a rest once in a while...

At 37, I'm still young and energetic enough to give you a good workout big boy!
:kiss:

darren cahill
Feb 21st, 2004, 09:03 PM
At 37, I'm still young and energetic enough to give you a good workout big boy!
:kiss:
bring it on sir....BRING IT ON!

(you need to 'bring on' the emails and pretty damn soon i must say!:tape: )

Lapin
Feb 21st, 2004, 09:06 PM
Maybe she'll purchase a computer, register at WtaWorld and get one
:haha:

mboyle
Feb 21st, 2004, 09:16 PM
I am a Christian. I have no opposition to Gay marriage. "once you stop passing judgement, only then will you not be judged." "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's."

Thus, do not make it your duty to punish homosexuals, leave that to god (if such a punishment be his will.) Though the bible does condemn indecent acts among 2 men or 2 women, it also condemns indecent acts among 1 man and 1 woman, leading me to believe that the message is not that "homosexuality is bad," but that sex w/ more than 1 person is bad. So the battle should really be over pre-marital sex, but you don't see that happening...

mboyle
Feb 21st, 2004, 09:18 PM
However, y'all are being pretty hypocritical. Don't pass judgement on her for passing judgment on gays. Just turn the other cheek. She has just as much of a right to her opinion as you do, and bashing her behind her back is amazingly low and achieves nothing.

for-sure
Feb 21st, 2004, 09:20 PM
So now everyone should accept incest?, poligomy?, Beastiality? just because it involves "love".

anabolix
Feb 21st, 2004, 09:38 PM
However, y'all are being pretty hypocritical. Don't pass judgement on her for passing judgment on gays. Just turn the other cheek. She has just as much of a right to her opinion as you do, and bashing her behind her back is amazingly low and achieves nothing.

Unbelievable........ Really unbelievable.........

U might as well be asking people to accept that hitler had a right to his opinion that jews should die and that no one has a right to criticize him for it.

life is about having principles, and sticking up for them.

And that means publically stating what you believe including, IMO, rejecting the bigoted views of Margaret Court.

Behind her back? Im sayin it right to her face, if she's listening. Shes being public enough.



And, btw being hypocritical is saying one thing and doing another. IMO, It would be really hypocritical to say you believe in human rights and then to stand by and watch as another person is denied them.

And, btw, my perspective happens to be a straight mans perspective.

just one that thinks that bigotry is WRONG, and someone whos willing to stand up and say it.

esquímaux
Feb 21st, 2004, 09:41 PM
So now everyone should accept incest?, poligomy?, Beastiality? just because it involves "love".
:tape::spit::tape::spit:

anabolix
Feb 21st, 2004, 09:49 PM
So now everyone should accept incest?, poligomy?, Beastiality? just because it involves "love".

no one mentioned incest, beastiality or "poligomy"

not what the thread is about, for-sure. Ur a better person than someone who takes a cheap shot like that, arent U?

being gay is not about raping family members, sexually assaulting children or having sex with animals. Although I admit that homophobic people often try to connect them

and btw, its spelt 'polygamy' :) :)

~ The Leopard ~
Feb 21st, 2004, 09:52 PM
I totally disagree with Margaret Court.

It's a pity she's gone all religious rather than being involved in tennis in the manner of her old rival BJK.

That said, she probably reflects the majority view in Australia and the US. I don't know about the other Western countries.

Anyway, I don't have any problem admitting that my own view, supporting gay marriage etc, is a minority one. I don't see the need to waste time attacking Margaret Court in particular. Better to be positive and push for law reform to support gay rights.

anabolix
Feb 21st, 2004, 10:01 PM
I totally disagree with Margaret Court.

It's a pity she's gone all religious rather than being involved in tennis in the manner of her old rival BJK.

That said, she probably reflects the majority view in Australia and the US. I don't know about the other Western countries.

Anyway, I have any problem admitting that my own view, supporting gay marriage etc, is a minority one. I don't see the need to waste time attacking Margaret Court in particular. Better to be positive and push for law reform to support gay rights.


I dont agree that its a waste of time.

Every time that someone with a public profile uses their notoriaty to denegrate a minority, then, I believe that everyone has a duty to use whatever forum they have access to, to disagree.

A few decades ago in the US, a point of view that segregation of blacks was wrong, was a "minority" view. And too few people who recognized that that was worong stated their oipnion in any public forum.

~ The Leopard ~
Feb 21st, 2004, 10:10 PM
BY the way, I left out the word "don't". I'll go back and edit my post. I meant to say that I don't have a problem admitting that my views are in the minority.

On the waste of time issue, I think it would be a lot more productive to support gay rights in wider public forums. However, I assume you do that, too. :) I certainly do.

~ The Leopard ~
Feb 21st, 2004, 10:23 PM
^I agree.

OUT!
Feb 21st, 2004, 10:25 PM
She does, but I have a problem with her suggestion "she could help homosexuals change their lifestyle through a Straight Choices course run at her Victory Life Centre in Perth."

You can't turn a gay person straight. Such thing as "Straight Choices course" are proven to be dangerous and have no scientific value.
Well put! :) ;)

Dava
Feb 21st, 2004, 10:30 PM
I have nothing against Christians but bigots who use religion to safeguard thier prejudice is what pisses me off. If you have something against someone or something say it, dont use religion or anything else as an excuse. There are so mnay contradictions in the bible anyway, and most people like this dont normally follow it to heart anyway.

She is however entitled to her opinion, but i dont think 'teaching' people how to be straight is right, in fact I find it a little bit twisted.

arcus
Feb 21st, 2004, 10:53 PM
good thread

Mgt Court is wrong. To use her tennis fame to encourage pple to hate gays is shameful.

Have to say that I am surprised that more pple have not posted here to say that they agree with anabollix.

*JR*
Feb 21st, 2004, 10:56 PM
Maybe she'll purchase a computer, register at WtaWorld and get one
She posts in Non-Tennis all The Time! :lol:

Andy T
Feb 21st, 2004, 11:11 PM
I have nothing against Christians but bigots who use religion to safeguard thier prejudice is what pisses me off. If you have something against someone or something say it, dont use religion or anything else as an excuse. There are so mnay contradictions in the bible anyway, and most people like this dont normally follow it to heart anyway.

She is however entitled to her opinion, but i dont think 'teaching' people how to be straight is right, in fact I find it a little bit twisted.

:worship: Two excellent points!

What is she doing spouting her views on what is essentially a secular legal matter? Hello Christians, partnership no longer has anything to do with religion for most people but is a personal choice. Christian marriage is one thing but the state in Australia, as far as I'm aware, is secular, and Aussie society is multi-cultural and multi-denominational too; therefore, religion has no place in this debate.

Then again, we also know that the only reason her views are published are because some sicko money-grabbing journalist in the employ of some sicko money-grabbing press magnate has been sent to ask for them.

Secondly, if she honestly believes she (or anyone else) can "convert" anyone sexually, she's seriously misled, unhinged even. Madge: there's NOTHING in the 4 gospels spoken by Jesus which specifically attacks homosexuality.

flyingmachine
Feb 22nd, 2004, 12:18 AM
I have nothing against Christians but bigots who use religion to safeguard thier prejudice is what pisses me off. If you have something against someone or something say it, dont use religion or anything else as an excuse. There are so mnay contradictions in the bible anyway, and most people like this dont normally follow it to heart anyway.

She is however entitled to her opinion, but i dont think 'teaching' people how to be straight is right, in fact I find it a little bit twisted.

I'm agree with you. However, she is not just putting her opinion she's also PEARCH people her beliefs by suggesting changing their lifestyle using Straight Choices course with I don't like.

tennisvideos
Feb 22nd, 2004, 01:03 AM
good thread

Mgt Court is wrong. To use her tennis fame to encourage pple to hate gays is shameful.

Have to say that I am surprised that more pple have not posted here to say that they agree with anabollix.

First lets get something 'straight' - no pun intended. Margaret Court does not promote hatred... she even says 'she loves them' and offers courses to help them - you don't do that for people you hate. You may do this for people you care about. And never does Margaret infer that gays are 'revolting sinners' as suggested in what I perceive as an an attempt to incite hatred and anger. Margaret's view seems to be that sex outside of the traditional marriage is the issue, not gays specifically... have a closer read of the press article.

The problem that Margaret has is that she is misguided on this issue. She thinks she is trying to help gay people (or straight people who have sex outside of marriage)... when in fact these people don't need help. Everyone should be free to live their life as they feel fit, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone in the process - and if it does hurt someone, then obviously that is part of the life lessons that other person has to go through. Yes, I believe in the bigger picture ... reincarnation, karma, everyone choosing their destinies, everyone being accountable for their own actions/choices etc.

The bottom line is, everyone has their own path to live... and no one should be judged for that. In this instance Margaret is out of line.... but I am not going to be hypocritical and judge her for it. And btw, I am gay.

Handy tip for those who wish to reject Margaret's views on gays:
Reject them. Yes, it's that simple. Just choose to ignore them. See how nice and simple life can be!

A better choice than getting worked up is it to just get on with your own life in trying to bring more love into the world and trying to break down barriers in a positive manner. I think anyone (including us gays) can do so much more for their 'cause' if they lead by example... that is treating others with kindness, love and respect. These things have a more powerful impact than hatred... which tends to achieve little except generate more hatred. Even if you only have a positive impact on one person in your life you have done a great deal for humanity. :)

Preemie Cadet
Feb 22nd, 2004, 01:18 AM
Really, the only salient point here is that Margaret Court has aged horrifically; she's gone from a rather handsome woman to an irate gargoyle who forever looks as though she's contemplating her yeast infection, or trying to spit out a rogue cashew. UGLY!

tennisvideos
Feb 22nd, 2004, 01:34 AM
Charming Preemie.... I can see you are a child of the light. :lol:

Anyway, in addition to being quoted by the rogue press, Margaret does in fact do a lot of great things for the community. Her church provides food, clothing, shelter, counselling, guidance (some of it misguided to be sure - LOL), and healing for the sick. And of course Margaret put a lot of her own money into establishing her church.... so she is doing good things. Far better things than many of us (including me) are doing with our lives.

anabolix
Feb 22nd, 2004, 02:19 AM
First lets get something 'straight' - no pun intended. Margaret Court does not promote hatred... she even says 'she loves them' and offers courses to help them - you don't do that for people you hate. You may do this for people you care about. And never does Margaret infer that gays are 'revolting sinners' as suggested in what I perceive as an an attempt to incite hatred and anger. Margaret's view seems to be that sex outside of the traditional marriage is the issue, not gays specifically... have a closer read of the press article.

The problem that Margaret has is that she is misguided on this issue. She thinks she is trying to help gay people (or straight people who have sex outside of marriage)... when in fact these people don't need help. Everyone should be free to live their life as they feel fit, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone in the process - and if it does hurt someone, then obviously that is part of the life lessons that other person has to go through. Yes, I believe in the bigger picture ... reincarnation, karma, everyone choosing their destinies, everyone being accountable for their own actions/choices etc.

The bottom line is, everyone has their own path to live... and no one should be judged for that. In this instance Margaret is out of line.... but I am not going to be hypocritical and judge her for it. And btw, I am gay.

Handy tip for those who wish to reject Margaret's views on gays:
Reject them. Yes, it's that simple. Just choose to ignore them. See how nice and simple life can be!

A better choice than getting worked up is it to just get on with your own life in trying to bring more love into the world and trying to break down barriers in a positive manner. I think anyone (including us gays) can do so much more for their 'cause' if they lead by example... that is treating others with kindness, love and respect. These things have a more powerful impact than hatred... which tends to achieve little except generate more hatred. Even if you only have a positive impact on one person in your life you have done a great deal for humanity. :)


Ironically, as a straight man (with a gay brother, as it happens), I have to take serious exception to what you say.
I feel strongly that I have to stand up for what I believe, that attacks on gay rights are wrong, and have to be fought in a society that is only learning to respect gays.

Please dont get me wrong. I respect you and i respect how much u admire Court and her career. I think your post was thought-provoking. I also accept that you acknowledge that Court is misguided on this issue, and that she is well intentioned at some levels, and does many good deeds in the context of her church.

However............ :)

History is full of those who did both good and bad in the name of "god". And their deeds remain either Good or Bad.

I might remind you that the conservative religious right in the US were the backbone in preserving black slavery, and later black segregation in america. The conservative baptist churchs of the south in the US still insist that women should be fully subservient to men, that women are not good enogh to lead their churches, and that practicing gays are to be shuned. And yet these churches do many good things... so u have to take each action and opinion on its own merits.

My point?
Court, no matter how well intentioned in general is feeding into a mindset that being gay is sinful and wrong, something that rots away at the core of society. I cant just sit by and ignore that. She implied that pretty clearly, in saying that gay marriage attacks society.

Its not a question of me judging Court, more a question of me judging her assertion that a practising gay person is a sinner, who is someone to be "saved" is just wrong.

Of course she is entitled to her opinion, however wrong it is in my view, but she is using her platform as a sports star, to promulgate a particularly offensive opinion, IMO, so Ill do what I can to publically express a contrary view.

Tennisvideos, how do u think that she views u? Despite your knowledge of the game, if she met you, and knew u were gay, would she respect u, would she let u play with her children? Would she listen to reason, would she want to "save" u from ur "sin".

She might love humanity, but she hates homosexuality, and since u rightly dont apologise for being gay, that means u, im afraid :(

TennisHack
Feb 22nd, 2004, 02:31 AM
As a "christian pastor" I'm pretty sure Margaret Court feels the same way about jews, hindus, muslims, agnostics, blacks, asians and anyone else who isnt white, rich and part of her Church.
You just lost whatever credibility you thought you had in this thread. It seems that your "hatred" for Christians is just as misguided as Ms. Court's thoughts on gays.

The point the other quite articulate posters in this thread were trying to make is, it is a waste of time to be bitching about it here. And honestly, you can't just scream and yell, you have to learn to persuade. So calm the fuck down and get some perspective yourself.

anabolix
Feb 22nd, 2004, 02:45 AM
You just lost whatever credibility you thought you had in this thread. It seems that your "hatred" for Christians is just as misguided as Ms. Court's thoughts on gays.

The point the other quite articulate posters in this thread were trying to make is, it is a waste of time to be bitching about it here. And honestly, you can't just scream and yell, you have to learn to persuade. So calm the fuck down and get some perspective yourself.

TH, i dont agree....

Its never a waste of time to say what u think is right. Im calm, I persude, I have perspective.............

But........

I dont care what the forum is, I will say without apology that being gay is not wrong or sinful, and as obvious as that seems, TennisHack, there are many who hate gay people.\, as well as other minorities. Ill defend them too. Here and other places.

and why not here? There is so much bigotry in sports, and many lesbians have contributed to the development of womens tenni. Why not take a minute to support and defend them.

And, btw, I dont hate christians, as ur trying to suggest. As it happens i am christian. I was making the point that people with a fixed conservative opinions, can view all those not like themselves negatively. and that can be wrong. History backs me up here....... :)

tennisvideos
Feb 22nd, 2004, 02:59 AM
Tennisvideos, how do u think that she views u? Despite your knowledge of the game, if she met you, and knew u were gay, would she respect u, would she let u play with her children? Would she listen to reason, would she want to "save" u from ur "sin".

She might love humanity, but she hates homosexuality, and since u rightly dont apologise for being gay, that means u, im afraid :(

Hello anabolix :)

Margaret is aware that I am in a gay relationship and that has never stopped her talking with me etc. In fact our last conversation was for about 25 minutes and she was most friendly indeed. As to whether she would let me play with her kids I have no idea as I haven't landed on her doorstep. ;) And she has never tried to direct me towards her courses... so I can conclude that I don't think she actively tries to push it on anyone. If people go to her and ask for help that is what she is there for. And that's cool from my perspective.

She might not like the idea of homosexuality, or adultry, but IMO she doesn't hate the people who are gay or adulterous. She doesn't hate me so I know that from personal experience. And she doesn't preach to me either thank heavens!!!! Or else then I would take exception. :)

Every person has multiple aspects. There is no single defining aspect to any one of us. In other words we all have good and bad within. I know I have some good points, and I have some terrible aspects as well. And the same goes for any human being. In Margaret's case - she has good aspects - she is helping people, and she has bad aspects - she judges people. So she is human and no different to the majority of us on this planet. Only the very spiritually aware are almost (read almost) without fault.

Anyway, that is my take. I can understand people getting upset over other's opinions, including in this instance. But I think it is better that we take the high road and look for ways to improve this planet of ours. Margaret's comments don't help .. but it's how we react to such comment that is the true test of our character. My goodness, I sound like a preacher myself !
:lol: All I am trying to do is provide another perspective and perhaps save someone from getting (metaphorically) stoned to death for their opinion. :)

anabolix
Feb 22nd, 2004, 03:24 AM
tennis videos...

nice post, and I continue to respect ur opinion..... :)

but I dont necessarily agree, This is such a big issue. Its not like respecting someone else cos they like mozerella while you like fontina :) .

Its such a basic human characteristic.

I have to say that those that HATE gays make life so miserable for those that ARE gay that its not something that, IMO, can be just shrugged off as a difference of opinion. U have to fight these attitudes, and do what u can to change opinions. U should understand that.

As a gay man, have u ever felt compelled to debate the gay issue with MC when u talked to her? I know I would have. HOw do u feel that she views ur relationship? does she "tolerate" u?
Man, I couldnt bear that........ Not just as an ultimate fan, but as a person, she should fully respect u in your relationship, without any derogatory overtones.

ironic that I am defending u, in a sense :lol: ............


and, btw, uve mentioned a few times that MC hates BOTH gay sex and adultary, as if lumping them together makes her in some sense less "anti-gay". But as u know, a loving monogomous gay relationship is not at all the same as an adulterous one, gay or straight. So her singular position on gays remains bigoted, IMO. She hates homosexuality - period. I cant think of a nicer way it put it, sorry

tennisvideos
Feb 22nd, 2004, 03:45 AM
tennis videos...

nice post, and I continue to respect ur opinion..... :)

but I dont necessarily agree, This is such a big issue. Its not like respecting someone else cos they like mozerella while you like fontina :) .

Its such a basic human characteristic.

I have to say that those that HATE gays make life so miserable for those that ARE gay, that its not something, that IMO, can be just shrugged off. U have to fight these attitudes, and do what u can to change opinions.

As a gay man, have u felt compelled to debate the gay issue with MC when u talked to her? I know I would have.

ironic that I am defending u, in a sense :lol: ............


and, btw, uve mentioned a few times that MC hates BOTH gay sex and adultary, as if lumping them together makes her in some sense less "anti-gay". But as u know, a loving monogomous gay relationship is not at all the same as an adulterous one, gay or straight. So her singular position on gays remains bigoted, IMO. She hates homosexuality - period. I cant think of a nicer way it put it, sorry

anabolix

I have some things I would like to share with you further on this fascinating subject. It is an interesting thread for sure and has prompted some lively discussion. I have to go to tennis now and I will get back to you when I get the chance so I can write about what I do when I encounter homophobia directly in my life etc.

Cheers for now :)

darren cahill
Feb 22nd, 2004, 03:52 AM
i feel the positive voodoo affirmations are about to come out!

I could say a lot more but i wont!

anabolix
Feb 22nd, 2004, 04:03 AM
i feel the positive voodoo affirmations are about to come out!

I could say a lot more but i wont!

I'm not sure I know what u mean...... :)

I know for sure that I know what I meant on here (:lol: ).... That noone, no matter how famous or brilliant they are/were, should disrespect ANY minority, or use their position of fame with the press to publicize that view.

And if they do, then right thinking people should try to redress the balance and say what they think is right....

They (MC) might be entitled to their opinion, but im entitled to object too....... :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

darren cahill
Feb 22nd, 2004, 04:05 AM
that comment was for Craig (tennisvideos)....he knows what it means.

anyways, not that anyone cares about my views at all but i just get such a kick out of comments like hers at the end of the story "i dont hate gays, i LOVE them, i am here to HELP them".... HELP ME???? what exactly do i need HELP with? you mean ALL THIS TIME ALL I NEEDED WAS MARGARET COURT? good god, i wish someone had told me this YEARS AGO! and to think all i thought i needed help with was finding a hot sexy man with big feet!

I dont really want to get into this with him about some of the comments made, you'd surely see another side of him then the positive light and fluffy side that hes showing you ;) i bring that out in him! LOL

anabolix
Feb 22nd, 2004, 04:15 AM
tennisvidoes seems like a good guy. I have no beef with him. :wavey:

I understand that Craig is a big MC fan, and why wouldnt he be, she had a sparkling career......

but our heros/heroines are human too, and when they err, lets call a spade a spade.

if fans object, maybe MC will reconsider her attitude, be less hateful towards gays.........

yeah, OK, and maybe pigs will fly...lol

Meantime, Craig, go on and respect MC's tennis, I admire that, but u should be also be totally bustin' on her attitude t'wards gays like u.....I'd admire that even more. :worship:

anabolix
Feb 22nd, 2004, 04:20 AM
that comment was for Craig (tennisvideos)....he knows what it means.

anyways, not that anyone cares about my views at all but i just get such a kick out of comments like hers at the end of the story "i dont hate gays, i LOVE them, i am here to HELP them".... HELP ME???? what exactly do i need HELP with? you mean ALL THIS TIME ALL I NEEDED WAS MARGARET COURT? good god, i wish someone had told me this YEARS AGO! and to think all i thought i needed help with was finding a hot sexy man with big feet!

I dont really want to get into this with him about some of the comments made, you'd surely see another side of him then the positive light and fluffy side that hes showing you ;) i bring that out in him! LOL


LOL

if only i hadnt run outa respect today..... :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

darren cahill
Feb 22nd, 2004, 04:23 AM
tennisvidoes seems like a good guy. I have no beef with him. :wavey:

I understand that Craig is a big MC fan, and why wouldnt he be, she had a sparkling career......

but our heros/heroines are human too, and when they err, lets call a spade a spade.

if fans object, maybe MC will reconsider her attitude, be less hateful towards gays.........

yeah, OK, and maybe pigs will fly...lol

Meantime, Craig, go on and respect MC's tennis, I admire that, but u should be also be totally bustin' on her attitude t'wards gays like u.....I'd admire that even more. :worship:
gays like u....good lord!

i didnt say he wasnt a 'nice guy'.....i was just saying it was sorta an inside joke thats all....plus, i would normally post my own comments but dont want to put them so close to his as they will look like an attack on his words alone (then again, hes the only one defending her so.....) i just dont agree completely with his comments and dont know how to word my own without sounding personal

anabolix
Feb 22nd, 2004, 04:28 AM
gays like u....good lord!

i didnt say he wasnt a 'nice guy'.....i was just saying it was sorta an inside joke thats all....plus, i would normally post my own comments but dont want to put them so close to his as they will look like an attack on his words alone (then again, hes the only one defending her so.....) i just dont agree completely with his comments and dont know how to word my own without sounding personal


ANABOLIX <====== straight

tryin' to be nice to everyone.... :wavey:
darren, I wanna hear ur own views.............
:)

Messenger
Feb 22nd, 2004, 04:34 AM
She is certifiably insane. Not just because she is against homosexuality but that she thinks equal rights are promoting homosexuality. Sorry but the rate of homosexuality will remain constant whether you illegalise the whole damn thing. And the children? How can you "protect" them from homosexuality when some of them are gay anyway.

There was also the time in Western Australia they were talking about reducing the age of consent for gay males from 21 to 18 (to be in line with hetero and lesbian sex).

She spoke out against that too. There was even a rally where she was introduced as the best player ever male or female (you wish, Margaret). How is the morality of homosexuality even relevant in cases like these?

~ The Leopard ~
Feb 22nd, 2004, 04:40 AM
Hmmmm, anabolix has repped me but I don't know whether it was meant to be a good rep or a bad rep since there's no comment attached, and he/she doesn't actually have enough rep points to give out good or bad rep.

Anyway, I should clarify one thing. My original post was aimed not so much at the first post on the thread as at later posts making comments about David Dukes etc. Comments of that kind, which attack individuals by comparing them to the Ku Klux Klan etc, do not help the debate.

I have been reasonably prominent not only on this board but in my own community in standing up for the rights of gay people, and I am have some very close personal connections which encourage me to do this (even though I am straight myself). But I see no point in doing so by making personal attacks on individuals. If anything, it is counterproductive. Expressing disagreement with them is another thing. I am all for that.

Messenger
Feb 22nd, 2004, 04:42 AM
More words of wisdom from Margaret: http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?t=10095 (click at your own risk ;))

TennisHack
Feb 22nd, 2004, 04:46 AM
TH, i dont agree....

Its never a waste of time to say what u think is right. Im calm, I persude, I have perspective.............

But........

I dont care what the forum is, I will say without apology that being gay is not wrong or sinful, and as obvious as that seems, TennisHack, there are many who hate gay people.\, as well as other minorities. Ill defend them too. Here and other places.

and why not here? There is so much bigotry in sports, and many lesbians have contributed to the development of womens tenni. Why not take a minute to support and defend them.
You miss the point. Your screaming and yelling here, on this message board (which was once called "the gay pickup bar of the Internet") isn't going to do a damn thing to affect this problem. Ms. Court does not read this message board; no one in power to change these sorts of things read this message board. Basically, you are accomplishing nothing by having your bitchfest here, among posters of whom the majority are gay, informed, or fans of Ms. Court's tennis accomplishments.


And, btw, I dont hate christians, as ur trying to suggest. As it happens i am christian. I was making the point that people with a fixed conservative opinions, can view all those not like themselves negatively. and that can be wrong. History backs me up here....... :)
Who's saying that Ms. Court is a fundamentalist conservative Christian? I do believe it was you who said that she doesn't like anybody who isn't rich, white, and a member of her Church. That's hardly a Christian attitude.

TennisHack
Feb 22nd, 2004, 04:51 AM
And, arcus, if you would like to point out what was so ignorant about my post, please feel free :)

BTW, I will amend my statement about "no one who can effect these sorts of things reads this message board" as I wrote that before I saw Leopard's post ;)

anabolix
Feb 22nd, 2004, 04:52 AM
Hmmmm, anabolix has repped me but I don't know whether it was meant to be a good rep or a bad rep since there's no comment attached, and he/she doesn't actually have enough rep points to give out good or bad rep.

Anyway, I should clarify one thing. My original post was aimed not so much at the first post on the thread as at later posts making comments about David Dukes etc. Comments of that kind, which attack individuals by comparing them to the Ku Klux Klan etc, do not help the debate.

I have been reasonably prominent not only on this board but in my own community in standing up for the rights of gay people, and I am have some very close personal connections which encourage me to do this (even though I am straight myself). But I see no point in doing so by making personal attacks on individuals. If anything, it is counterproductive. Expressing disagreement with them is another thing. I am all for that.

Of course...... I sent leopard good rep for his posts in this thread. I am also all for attacking bad attitudes, rather than people. I'm surprised that he wasnt clearer on where I stood :wavey:

Generally, I always send out good rep.... there are only a few situations where negativity is in order......... :)

alexusjonesfan
Feb 22nd, 2004, 04:57 AM
wow, do my eyes deceive me or is this an actual case of people being more restrained in GM than in NT?! :eek:

In NT, people were quick to pounce on Arnold for going to SanFrancisco to stop them from giving out same-sex marriage licences (even though he was trying to uphold the state law there) and fewer people here are ready to rip Madge here for saying prejudiced things about homosexuality. And in Arnold's comments don't even come close to Margaret's in terms of severity.

Anyway, I do agree that Margaret Court is a very, very, very accomplished tennis player and I'm sure does many charitable and good things for her community. Still, it's a personal choice to decide how coloured one's opinion of her becomes due to her views on this issue. There was that case a while ago of the illegitimate child of some racist Southern US ex-politician with a black woman. Clearly the politician's prejudice didn't make for a hateful relationship between him and his daughter. It could've just as easily been different if the daughter could ultimately never forgive him for his ideology and his attempts to perpetuate it. So, it's a personal choice really, how much one facet of a person's personality affects your interaction with and esteem of them.

Jakeev
Feb 22nd, 2004, 04:59 AM
I am agreeing with mboyle here because while I don't agree with what Court has to say about my sexuality, I respect her right to feel the way she feels.

Many that have posted in here have said some pretty nasty things themselves trying to defend their own opinion and frankly, I don't find that anymore right.

Get this straight(no pun intended) people, there are probably 1 or 2 in 5 people on this planet that do not like the fact I am gay or others are either, but I have not right either to try to change their view if that is what they feel.

You want people to accept us for what we are than it's about time we accept that not everybody does either.........

anabolix
Feb 22nd, 2004, 05:13 AM
You miss the point. Your screaming and yelling here, on this message board (which was once called "the gay pickup bar of the Internet") isn't going to do a damn thing to affect this problem. Ms. Court does not read this message board; no one in power to change these sorts of things read this message board. Basically, you are accomplishing nothing by having your bitchfest here, among posters of whom the majority are gay, informed, or fans of Ms. Court's tennis accomplishments.



Who's saying that Ms. Court is a fundamentalist conservative Christian? I do believe it was you who said that she doesn't like anybody who isn't rich, white, and a member of her Church. That's hardly a Christian attitude.


TH, ur all over the map here..... :)

I'm not screaming or yelling. Im not trying to have "bitchfest"....... IM trying to make a serious point.

This is a public message board, where people of many different persuasions visit. Gay or not. Though straight myself, and not expert in these matters, I doubt that this is the internets hottest gay pick-up joint :rolleyes:

Id prefer to think it was a collection of varied individuals that just liked tennis.

I feel like discrimination and sexual orientation are topics that have an interest for everyone. And everyones opinion counts, not just Mgt Courts, so Illl keep posting.

I'm not clear from ur posts if u think that its wrong to discriminate against someone, or deny them a marriage license, just because they are gay. Please make ur stance clear.

I think that there is always a point in enlightening people, even if they are not Mgt Court. I doubt I affect her anyhow... :)

and btw, when u listen to her statements, its clear that she is about as conservative and fundamental a christian as they come......

Jakeev
Feb 22nd, 2004, 05:15 AM
She has the right to express her view about homosexuality, just like people have the right to express their view about Margaret Court.
But that's not what is being said. It's being vicious and vindictive about her opinions that is the problem.........

TennisHack
Feb 22nd, 2004, 05:32 AM
I'm not clear from ur posts if u think that its wrong to discriminate against someone, or deny them a marriage license, just because they are gay. Please make ur stance clear.
I think it's wrong for YOU to slander Ms. Court for saying something you disagree with, in an attempt to discredit her. You do not know her personally. You do not know what beliefs she holds. You cannot extend this opinion on homosexuality (always a hot-topic religious issue) to opinions on "hindus, muslims, agnostics, blacks, asians and anyone else who isnt white, rich and part of her Church." Disagree with her opinion, but do not try to extend the opinion to other religious/social groups in order to further your argument.

Jakeev
Feb 22nd, 2004, 05:34 AM
It's a sensitive issue so some people might go too far but I haven't read any really offensive things, unless I missed them.

Besides calling homosexuals "sinners" can also be viewed as "vicious".

Lol but we are all sinners ultimately sweet thing so if anyone is offended by that than they need to smell the roses and think about the word SIN.

anabolix
Feb 22nd, 2004, 05:34 AM
[QUOTE=viggen]wow, do my eyes deceive me or is this an actual case of people being more restrained in GM than in NT?! :eek:

In NT, people were quick to pounce on Arnold for going to SanFrancisco to stop them from giving out same-sex marriage licences (even though he was trying to uphold the state law there) and fewer people here are ready to rip Madge here for saying prejudiced things about homosexuality. And in Arnold's comments don't even come close to Margaret's in terms of severity.

Anyway, I do agree that Margaret Court is a very, very, very accomplished tennis player and I'm sure does many charitable and good things for her community. Still, it's a personal choice to decide how coloured one's opinion of her becomes due to her views on this issue. There was that case a while ago of the illegitimate child of some racist Southern US ex-politician with a black woman. Clearly the politician's prejudice didn't make for a hateful relationship between him and his daughter. It could've just as easily been different if the daughter could ultimately never forgive him for his ideology and his attempts to perpetuate it. So, it's a personal choice really, how much one facet of a person's personality affects your interaction with and esteem of them.[/QUOTE



OMG, even as a white male, this post makes me SO MAD


The politician in question, Strom Thurman. He Pursued an anti-black agenda all of his political life. He based his whole career on it. They were slaves and servants that was how he wanted it to stay. If there was a choice, he chose the racist one. That was what defined him. That ultra right ring voting demographic was his base.

Noone ever expected that he had used the black servants for sex and had a child by one of them, and then covered the whole thing up throughout his whole career.

Way to bring up ur child.;....... :rolleyes:
this is how it goes....... sorry, u might be my daughter but I hate blacks, and ill do everything I can to make their lives bad, I only screw them, and I wont even acknowledge the bastard kids of those relationships till I die, ......but u as my daughter, i might love u, but Ill refuse to admit to my dying day that IM ur father. Ill visit from time to time, but please dont say I'm ur father, or ill be as F**ked as ur mom was...."

TennisHack
Feb 22nd, 2004, 05:41 AM
[QUOTE=viggen]The politician in question, Strom Thurman. He Pursued an anti-black agenda all of his political life. He based his whole career on it. They were slaves and servants that was how he wanted it to stay. If there was a choice, he chose the racist one. That was what defined him. That ultra right ring voting demographic was his base.

Noone ever expected that he had used the black servants for sex and had a child by one of them, and then covered the whole thing up throughout his whole career.

Way to bring up ur child.;....... :rolleyes:
this is how it goes....... sorry, u might be my daughter but I hate blacks, and ill do everything I can to make their lives bad, I only screw them, and I wont even acknowledge the bastard kids of those relationships till I die, ......but u as my daughter, i might love u, but Ill refuse to admit to my dying day that IM ur father. Ill visit from time to time, but please dont say I'm ur father, or ill be as F**ked as ur mom was...."
His political line was right in step with the times in North Carolina. Believe it or not, politicians espouse things they do not personally believe in all the time. It's called politics, and it was the only way he could keep his seat and his livelihood, presumably.

There was a thread about this here when it was revealed that he fathered a black daughter. He did what he could for her, considering his position. I'm not saying he was in the right or that he made the best choice, but you really have to look at the big picture sometimes to understand why people do (or did) what they do/did.

No need in getting angry about it now. Thankfully, it appears that the South has moved away from those ideas, even though there are dissenters (like with every issue everywhere).

anabolix
Feb 22nd, 2004, 05:51 AM
I think it's wrong for YOU to slander Ms. Court for saying something you disagree with, in an attempt to discredit her. You do not know her personally. You do not know what beliefs she holds. You cannot extend this opinion on homosexuality (always a hot-topic religious issue) to opinions on "hindus, muslims, agnostics, blacks, asians and anyone else who isnt white, rich and part of her Church." Disagree with her opinion, but do not try to extend the opinion to other religious/social groups in order to further your argument.

I do know some key beliefs she holds. she makes it all too clear.
she thinks that gays are sinners, and that they need to be healed.

Its not what im saying, TH, its what she says.

True, it doesnt necessarily extend to other minorities, but I cant understand how she can accept some and reject others. Whatever about other colors, im willing to bet that, in line with her church, she doesnt believe that those from another denomination are going to heaven. She sure dont think gays are...........

I am inflammed, cos I find her opinion so objectionable.

Please, TH, dont make the issue ambiguous as "always a hot topic religious issue". Theres nothing fuzzy about it. U either think gays are people with the same rights as others or u think that they are second class citizens with second class rights........... Its a sitaution where u nail ur colors to the mast.

btw, I'm still not clear where u stand? u havent said if u respect gays, or think they should have the same rights for marriage etc as straight people........ I'm assuming u so?

anabolix
Feb 22nd, 2004, 06:00 AM
His political line was right in step with the times in North Carolina. Believe it or not, politicians espouse things they do not personally believe in all the time. It's called politics, and it was the only way he could keep his seat and his livelihood, presumably.

There was a thread about this here when it was revealed that he fathered a black daughter. He did what he could for her, considering his position. I'm not saying he was in the right or that he made the best choice, but you really have to look at the big picture sometimes to understand why people do (or did) what they do/did.

No need in getting angry about it now. Thankfully, it appears that the South has moved away from those ideas, even though there are dissenters (like with every issue everywhere).

OMG. """politicians espouse things they do not personally believe in all the time. It's called politics""""


U think thats OK???????

There is every need to get angry about this........

The south has not moved fully on... I know I live here, and as a white male, the racism still upsets ME.

TH, I'd like to vote for a politician that did what he thought was right, rather than what lined his pocket.

The jaded view that everyone in power will do what it takes to stay in power and better themselves, and that thats somehow ok, needs to change. :mad:

CinnamoninCinema
Feb 22nd, 2004, 06:05 AM
Former grand slam tennis great Margaret Court continues to publically pursue a bigots agenda against gay people.

She says she "loves them" while impling that they're revolting sinners in the same sentence :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery:

Sad, why not just live and let live.

Lots of gay people in tennis.

please reply if you feel hating on minorities is wrong :)


""""Pastor Court hits gay plan

By Nadia Miraudo
The Sunday Times
January 11, 2004

TENNIS legend and Christian pastor the Reverend Margaret Court has condemned federal Labor's plans to give same-sex couples equal rights and financial status as heterosexual couples.

Attacking the policy, which bans anti-homosexual discrimination in areas including taxation, family law, industrial relations and government benefits, Dr Court said the changes would erode Australia's Christian heritage.

But Dr Court's comments have come under fire for being fundamentalist and discriminatory.

Pride WA co-president Daniel Smith said the ALP's policy would ensure gay and lesbian people would enjoy the same human rights as heterosexual couples.

Dr Court denied her stance was discriminatory, and believed she could help homosexuals change their lifestyle through a Straight Choices course run at her Victory Life Centre in Perth.

But she said the ALP policy threatened the family unit and would play a part in the breakdown of society.

"Our Constitution has been built on Christian principles but we are diluting our values for a minority and our young ones are coming through schools without any Christian values and no idea of what is right and wrong," she said.

"It really saddens me when men in leadership devalue a nation to attract a few votes."

But former federal shadow attorney-general and architect of the policy Robert McClelland said the reforms were designed to support and strengthen genuine relationships.

"They are about putting an end to unfair discrimination in a range of federal laws, consistent with recent reforms to state laws," Mr McClelland said.

Dr Court said if the law was to change, it would demoralise society and confuse children.

She said she did not hate homosexual people. "No, I love them," she said. "I'm there to help them, but just because they do what they do doesn't make it right. It is a sin of the flesh no different to adultery." """"""

The religious must learn to separate a civil rights issue from a moral question. Doesn't matter whether you believe homosexuality is wrong or right, it's a civil rights issue. Maybe Margaret Court wouldn't have approved of those same arguments (blah tradition, blah values, blah blah blah) being used 100 years ago to deny women the ability to vote?

People will hide behind anything to punish their prejudices.

SpikeyAidanm
Feb 22nd, 2004, 06:06 AM
Religion :rolleyes:

anabolix
Feb 22nd, 2004, 06:07 AM
I am agreeing with mboyle here because while I don't agree with what Court has to say about my sexuality, I respect her right to feel the way she feels.

Many that have posted in here have said some pretty nasty things themselves trying to defend their own opinion and frankly, I don't find that anymore right.

Get this straight(no pun intended) people, there are probably 1 or 2 in 5 people on this planet that do not like the fact I am gay or others are either, but I have not right either to try to change their view if that is what they feel.

You want people to accept us for what we are than it's about time we accept that not everybody does either.........

U can stand up for what u know is right and make that stance public.
U can publically rebuke offensive and erroneous statements about gays made by those with the medias "ear" too.........

On a site like this there are a lot of people who are open to different ideas about things, makes sense to give them what U believe are the right ones.

they can decide.

Volcana
Feb 22nd, 2004, 06:27 AM
Dr Court denied her stance was discriminatory, and believed she could help homosexuals change their lifestyle through a Straight Choices course run at her Victory Life Centre in Perth.
If you were gay and spent your whole life denying it, even married and had children, isn't it possible you'd take the stance she has? To maintain your own denial, whatever the cost? I kind of pity her.

As for the actual quotes .....

"Our Constitution has been built on Christian principles but we are diluting our values for a minority and our young ones are coming through schools without any Christian values and no idea of what is right and wrong,"
I'm not that familar with the history of the Australian Constitution. IS it built on 'Christian vales'? If it is, that statement is accurate. The rest is clearly rooted in MC's personal belief system. She equates 'Christian values' with 'right and wrong'. Yet I'm sure if you pressed her, she'd concede that people all over the world successfully learn right and wrong without being Christians.

"No, I love them," she said. "I'm there to help them, but just because they do what they do doesn't make it right. It is a sin of the flesh no different to adultery."
Adultery, by definition, involves the betrayal of a vow. The entire point of marriage, gay or otherwise, is to COMMIT to a vow. Far from being 'no different than adultery, it's virtually a polar opposite.

~ The Leopard ~
Feb 22nd, 2004, 06:39 AM
Thanks for the clarification. I'll good-rep you back, since I agree with a lot of what you say. After some other experiences, I'm never sure when I get one of those "grey reps". :D

Andy T
Feb 22nd, 2004, 08:06 AM
i feel the positive voodoo affirmations are about to come out!

I could say a lot more but i wont!

Some very wise words have been written on this thread :worship: :worship:
with much sincerity abnd openness. I find myself somewhere between Tennisvideos and Anabolix on the issue.

Let's face it, anyone who holds such views on homosexuality as Madge does because of his/her faith (as opposed to logic) is not going to change his/her view unless something happens in his/her life to make him/her feel differently. You can't argue against people like that so there's no point in trying. Our emotional outbursts on this thread are more for us than for her.

On the other hand, we can put forward the other view, whether based on logic or faith, that homosexuality is neither "wrong/sinful" nor justification for legal:social discrimination and continue the work to gain equality and acceptance. Our focus should be the people in power. Court is right when she says society is founded on [C19th] christian values and norms and in a post-christian society, where spirituality is no longer the preserve of one established organised religion, laws need to be changed.

tennisvideos
Feb 22nd, 2004, 10:08 AM
i feel the positive voodoo affirmations are about to come out!

I could say a lot more but i wont!

that comment was for Craig (tennisvideos)....he knows what it means.

anyways, not that anyone cares about my views at all but i just get such a kick out of comments like hers at the end of the story "i dont hate gays, i LOVE them, i am here to HELP them".... HELP ME???? what exactly do i need HELP with? you mean ALL THIS TIME ALL I NEEDED WAS MARGARET COURT? good god, i wish someone had told me this YEARS AGO! and to think all i thought i needed help with was finding a hot sexy man with big feet!

I dont really want to get into this with him about some of the comments made, you'd surely see another side of him then the positive light and fluffy side that hes showing you ;) i bring that out in him! LOL

Yes Mike, you do indeed have a talent for exploiting my darker side. ;) :devil: Like I mentioned in an earlier post, I have good aspects and bad aspects like most others on this planet. I am no angel ... but I am searching for the truth and making an effort to do the best I can in my life. Not in terms of personal achievement so much ... hell I have already achieved far more than I ever believed possible. But I mean trying to do more for others now... my life now has recently thrown me a lot of challenges which means I need to focus more on helping others around me who are in need. And I have discovered that this is much more fulfilling than anything I can do for myself.

Anyway, please feel free to say more… Everyone is entitled to their opinion. And I do value your opinion :)

I don’t mind you cracking jokes about voodoo affirmations … just to explain it to others, it is Mike’s joke about me taking a more spiritual path in my life since the days when we communicated more a few years ago. :)

Sam L
Feb 22nd, 2004, 10:09 AM
I wish she'll just go away. Period.

tennisvideos
Feb 22nd, 2004, 10:55 AM
Meantime, Craig, go on and respect MC's tennis, I admire that, but u should be also be totally bustin' on her attitude t'wards gays like u.....I'd admire that even more. :worship:

Hi Anabolix :wavey:

OK... in response.... I have no need to bust Margaret's attitude towards "gays like me". LOL. I am secure with myself and have no need to get on my soapbox and tell Margaret, or anyone else in the world that I am gay and demand equal rights and demand that they all accept me. Why should everyone accept me? Their beliefs are their choice and they must make their own decisions in their own time. If Margaret does not approve of homosexuality then that is her right. She is also free to talk about it in the press if she is asked about it. And that's fine with me. If people listen to her and agree with her than that is fine with me. That is also their choice. Everyone has their path in life and must make their own choices. Each of us has lessons to learn in this lifetime.

I believe I can make more of a difference in the world by being a more understanding, considerate, caring and loving person. Slowly I am learning these things by studying and applying principles about the spiritual side of life. By being more understanding, considerate, caring and loving I am touching people in my lives directly. And these actions have more potency in changing perceptions than jumping up on my soapbox and busting on other people's attitudes. By doing that all you are doing is creating more hostility and potentially making the situation worse. You are trying to coerce others into accepting your beliefs, and I don't think that is acceptable.

However, because I am openly gay in the workplace (no not flamboyant), to a large degree in my family (not totally), and certainly to all my friends and tennis crowd, I know I have changed a good number of peoples attitudes towards gays... and usually for the better. Many of my contacts have told me many things like "oh my god, I thought all gays were like xxxx (usually a negative).... now I realise you are basically just like the rest of us". Even some people, who used to be homophobic or ignorant, are now good friends of mine, and much more understanding of gays & lesbians.

Most of these people around me know my partner also, and know that we have been in a stable relationship, living together for over 15 years now. And we have our own kid so to speak - our dog Spike. They know we do all the normal things that they do - go out for dinner, visit friends, go to movies, watch DVDs, play tennis, go to the beach etc. Others do these things with us as well... some people from work, from tennis etc... some former homophobes. LOL. The mere fact that we do things together, or that we may care in our actions towards others are the little things that can make a difference and can create more understanding.

So that is why I think you can do more good by your choices in life and impacting on those around you. It's the same for any minority group. You CAN make a positive difference in subtle ways by being genuine, caring and loving towards others.

And that is precisely the reason why I don't go bustin on other people's opinions. It usually has the opposite effect of what you are trying to achieve... you come up against resistance. It's a law of human nature ... try to tell others what they should do or believe and they will most likely choose the opposite - and it will often make the situation worse. Just try it sometime, get assertive and tell someone that they should accept your viewpoint for whatever reasons. I can guarantee it will backfire on you in most cases. I prefer to use my life in a subtle way to make little changes in my world. And a drop in the ocean can cause ripples that can travel a long way. :)

Rollo
Feb 22nd, 2004, 12:52 PM
Anabolix-While I'm on your side in thinking Court is wrong I wish you and others would moderate your words at times. Quotes like yours about Court hating people of color, muslims etc are just as bigoted and ignorant as hers. It's words like that that do nothing to convince those who agree with you, drive people on the fence (the majority, who MIGHT agree) to the other side, and give ammunition to your enemies. It will words like that spoken in public that may well help Bush get reelected.

And I KNOW your as wrong. Why? I've had personal contact with lots of Christians-even (shudder) fundamentalist ones with very conservative views. And guess what-there's a lot of gray area there.

And many people KNOW anti-gays are wrong. Why? Because they personally know gays. They work with them, have gay releatives or coworkers and (gasp) see gays as people first, not some caricature. Even among this group though there is a lot of gray.

Words like yours just drive individuals away, and I mean individuals. Unlike Andy T, I don't think this is an issue that will be decided at the top. It will be decided person by person. It will be generations long. That's the nature of culture wars.

Fantastic
Feb 22nd, 2004, 01:15 PM
Religion is the excuse for all evil.

CinnamoninCinema
Feb 22nd, 2004, 01:17 PM
Religion is the excuse for all evil.

Blanket statements like that are usually not true.

Rollo
Feb 22nd, 2004, 01:19 PM
And you base that on what Fantastic?

We have also experienced societies without religion, including communist Russia and China, and Cambodia. Are these models? Modern secular societies have proved to be no less evil.

CinnamoninCinema
Feb 22nd, 2004, 01:22 PM
And you base that on what Fantastic?

We have also experienced societies without religion, including communist Russia and China, and Cambodia. Are these models? Modern secular societies have proved to be no less evil.

mmmm secularism.

I'm guessing he's young, Rollo. That sounds like something I would've said when I was 14.

maccardel
Feb 22nd, 2004, 01:33 PM
So now everyone should accept incest?, poligomy?, Beastiality? just because it involves "love".
WoW!! That is a f***k'd thing to say. How could you compare nasty sexual acts or behaviors with two people who just want to be together and want acknowledgement. First it is messed up that a group of people would have to ask another group to accept them, when they should just go on and live their lives as long as it doesn't break any laws. Hence the word freedom to live our lives.

It is consentual and like the Police officer who, took pictures of the underaged teen and later married her. They went to court and the case was thrown out. Well the accusers, are still upset and so what? The couple went on to live their lives the way they chose to.

In some small niche of this society, we find a culture that we do not agree with, whether in beliefs or in appearance. Somehow this situation is a combination of both. The right wingers (those who believe their way is the right way) are really against the left wingers ( in this case, those who are believed to have "left" the mainstream. Homosexuality has become a sub-culture within another sub-culture. As history previewed for us, this is dangerous. It is the separation of beliefs and knowledge. I am not against two people who want to get together and live life together. It is only when the sub- culture revolves and we get a peak into the outcome.

We do not have the right to say this is wrong, afterall, we are the same people, who at one time said out loud that we have nothing against homosexuality. Only to impress friends or someone along the way. We said it and now it is in our faces. This is where have to stand up and admit that we somehow goofed. No one wants to do that. Admitting that you are wrong would only acknowledge your inability to make decisions, but also your fear and confusion.

We made that decision to watch the talk shows and the "queer eye for the straight guy" and laugh at what is being seen and yet subconciously, we are absorbing it. If you want to live your life as a christian, go ahead and if you want to live as a homosexual, go ahead. We don't have that right to say you are wrong, when all is said and done, neither of us is right.

One day it will all meet up together where the oppressed (christians) will oppress. That day is now. Welcome to the evolution of man.

mboyle
Feb 22nd, 2004, 03:21 PM
and btw, its spelt 'polygamy' :) :)
oh btw it is SPELLED not spelt.

Declan
Feb 22nd, 2004, 04:27 PM
An aside: older British readers may remember James Anderton, the Chief Constable of Greater Manchester in the late 80s - he was a religious zealot with an extremely well-publicised anti-gay agenda. He was then extremely embarrassed and had to do some serious public back-peddling when his daughter later came out as a lesbian, to the delight of the gay community! I wonder what Mrs Court's reaction would be if -heaven forbid - one of her offspring turned out to be gay?!

Andy T
Feb 22nd, 2004, 04:49 PM
A word from La Professoressa:
"spelt" (like burnt/dreamt/learnt, etc) is British English and "spelled", (learned, etc) is American English, so you're both right!

"Unlike Andy T, I don't think this is an issue that will be decided at the top. It will be decided person by person. It will be generations long. That's the nature of culture wars." Rollo

Maybe I wasn't clear Rollo but I was referring to the legal issue against which Marge spoke out (see report quoted at the beginning). What I meant was that no matter what she says on this issue, it's not Marge who decides, so the focus should be kept on the lawmakers, not the opponents. As far as acceptance of homosexuality in general goes, I'm of the same opinion as you. In my lifetime (since 1966), homosexuality has been decriminalised in Britain (where I was born), and gay people now have an equal age of consent (16), in the world it is no longer officially viewed as an illness/psychological disorder, and in many European countries couples can register their partnerships and enjoy the same financial and legal rights as married couples. This shows that views are changing relatively fast. Maybe Margaret Court's gay grandchildren (and I sincerely and lovingly hope she has some) will grow up in a world which, though rotten in other senses, at least treats them as equals before the law.

anabolix
Feb 22nd, 2004, 05:46 PM
People can be complacent about issues. Same as they were about race issues in SA and the US a few years ago. That has changed a lot. Gay issues are the same now.

Maybe i shouldnt have spelt (!!) things out so starkly. Sure I was pushing the envelope in this thread. But the idea was to get people thinking about the undercurrent of negative opinion against gays that margaret court is promoting. Remember MC wants gay people to be denied human and legal rights that, IMO, should be available to all.

This very same issue is very much live in the US, in california, as well. SO its a good time to get people thinking about it, i think.

I respect peoples right to have different opinions, and in general it wouldnt bother me. But I cant be complacent when i see those opinions promoting discrimination. Personally, I have serious issue with MC for these and other statements. I will always vigorously oppose them. Here and elsewhere.

Doing what u can in your personal life to set a good example is great, but i think you have to also make a point of rejecting discrimination when you meet it.

TennisHack
Feb 22nd, 2004, 06:15 PM
TH, I'd like to vote for a politician that did what he thought was right, rather than what lined his pocket.

The jaded view that everyone in power will do what it takes to stay in power and better themselves, and that thats somehow ok, needs to change. :mad:This is in response to both your posts to me.

As both Rollo & tennisvideos has said much more eloquently than me, this is NOT a cut and dry, black and white issue. There is a lot of gray area for a lot of people. Even Andy T, your biggest proponent in this thread, says he finds his opinion somewhere between yours and tennisvideos.

You have to put things in context. Just because Ms. Court holds this opinion about gays (shared by some Christians and not by others) does not mean she only sees the world through this lens. The grand majority of Chrisitians are hypocritical somewhere in their thinking; it's the nature of trying to take the Bible's teachings too literally. You claim to be a Christian, yet you won't extend your Christian love and tolerance to Ms. Court because she holds this one opinion. That's hypocritical.

As for the south moving on -- I'm guessing you're pretty young. Unless you lived in the 60's at the height of the bloodshed, you cannot say the South hasn't moved on from some of the attitudes that got Strom Thurmond into office.

And, sorry bro, that's how politics work. It's pretty ruthless, which is why more and more Americans are choosing to sit out during elections. Politicians will say whatever they have to say to keep their seat.

Being righteously indignant will do nothing but shorten your life and alienate you from people who might have supported your opinion. Do whatever you want to do in regards to this issue, but don't jump people like tennisvideos or Rollo or me because we won't join your bandwagon of promoting just as much intolerance. It's an exercise in futility.

Rollo
Feb 22nd, 2004, 06:15 PM
Sorry Andy. I misread your post.

Anabolix-I'm with you on your last post. The thing was you said it so much better that time around:)

Jakeev
Feb 22nd, 2004, 09:49 PM
This is in response to both your posts to me.

As both Rollo & tennisvideos has said much more eloquently than me, this is NOT a cut and dry, black and white issue. There is a lot of gray area for a lot of people. Even Andy T, your biggest proponent in this thread, says he finds his opinion somewhere between yours and tennisvideos.

You have to put things in context. Just because Ms. Court holds this opinion about gays (shared by some Christians and not by others) does not mean she only sees the world through this lens. The grand majority of Chrisitians are hypocritical somewhere in their thinking; it's the nature of trying to take the Bible's teachings too literally. You claim to be a Christian, yet you won't extend your Christian love and tolerance to Ms. Court because she holds this one opinion. That's hypocritical.

As for the south moving on -- I'm guessing you're pretty young. Unless you lived in the 60's at the height of the bloodshed, you cannot say the South hasn't moved on from some of the attitudes that got Strom Thurmond into office.

And, sorry bro, that's how politics work. It's pretty ruthless, which is why more and more Americans are choosing to sit out during elections. Politicians will say whatever they have to say to keep their seat.

Being righteously indignant will do nothing but shorten your life and alienate you from people who might have supported your opinion. Do whatever you want to do in regards to this issue, but don't jump people like tennisvideos or Rollo or me because we won't join your bandwagon of promoting just as much intolerance. It's an exercise in futility.
Outstanding post!!!

alfonsojose
Feb 22nd, 2004, 10:03 PM
Billie Jean King is guilty. She grabbed Court's butt in a tournament 30 years ago ..

:tape:

Car Key Boi
Feb 22nd, 2004, 10:11 PM
wow, do my eyes deceive me or is this an actual case of people being more restrained in GM than in NT?! :eek:

In NT, people were quick to pounce on Arnold for going to SanFrancisco to stop them from giving out same-sex marriage licences (even though he was trying to uphold the state law there) and fewer people here are ready to rip Madge here for saying prejudiced things about homosexuality. And in Arnold's comments don't even come close to Margaret's in terms of severity.


IT'S LIKE THIS. TENNIS TARDS ARE A COMPULSIVE OBSESSIVE BUNCH AND WHEN ONE OF THEIR IDOLS SAYS OR DOES SOMETHING THAT IS DISAGREEABLE, THEY COMPROMISE THEIR PRINICIPLES AND COME UP WITH BS EXPLANATIONS TO EXPLAIN THEIR IDOL'S ACTIONS OR WORDS

IN OTHER WORDS, THEY ACT LIKE POLITICAL SPIN DOCTORS

TENNIS TARDS, SO VERY O WN ED!! http://carkeyboi.com/dump/lol.gif

2284
Feb 23rd, 2004, 12:03 AM
Former grand slam tennis great Margaret Court continues to publically pursue a bigots agenda against gay people.

She says she "loves them" while impling that they're revolting sinners in the same sentence :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery:

Sad, why not just live and let live.

Lots of gay people in tennis.

please reply if you feel hating on minorities is wrong :)


""""Pastor Court hits gay plan

By Nadia Miraudo
The Sunday Times
January 11, 2004

TENNIS legend and Christian pastor the Reverend Margaret Court has condemned federal Labor's plans to give same-sex couples equal rights and financial status as heterosexual couples.

Attacking the policy, which bans anti-homosexual discrimination in areas including taxation, family law, industrial relations and government benefits, Dr Court said the changes would erode Australia's Christian heritage.

But Dr Court's comments have come under fire for being fundamentalist and discriminatory.

Pride WA co-president Daniel Smith said the ALP's policy would ensure gay and lesbian people would enjoy the same human rights as heterosexual couples.

Dr Court denied her stance was discriminatory, and believed she could help homosexuals change their lifestyle through a Straight Choices course run at her Victory Life Centre in Perth.

But she said the ALP policy threatened the family unit and would play a part in the breakdown of society.

"Our Constitution has been built on Christian principles but we are diluting our values for a minority and our young ones are coming through schools without any Christian values and no idea of what is right and wrong," she said.

"It really saddens me when men in leadership devalue a nation to attract a few votes."

But former federal shadow attorney-general and architect of the policy Robert McClelland said the reforms were designed to support and strengthen genuine relationships.

"They are about putting an end to unfair discrimination in a range of federal laws, consistent with recent reforms to state laws," Mr McClelland said.

Dr Court said if the law was to change, it would demoralise society and confuse children.

She said she did not hate homosexual people. "No, I love them," she said. "I'm there to help them, but just because they do what they do doesn't make it right. It is a sin of the flesh no different to adultery." """"""

This is particularly sad because I know a lot of genuine Christians who want to do nothing but help others. She is just giving them a bad name....and by the way, if we are talking about Australia's religious heritage, shouldn't we be looking at Aboriginal beliefs rather than Christianity?

tennisvideos
Feb 23rd, 2004, 12:52 AM
Doing what u can in your personal life to set a good example is great, but i think you have to also make a point of rejecting discrimination when you meet it.I agree with you on this, and yes, I do reject discrimination when I meet it ... in my way. I think my way is the most effective way that I can make a difference. Incidently, I have been the target of discrimination for as long as I can remember, but I have learnt not to be a victim of it.

tennisvideos
Feb 23rd, 2004, 01:18 AM
Billie Jean King is guilty. She grabbed Court's butt in a tournament 30 years ago ..

:tape:
:lol: - that's just what this thread needs. A little humour. :)

It's also funny that Margaret used to regularly play doubles with a few lesbians... Maria Bueno & Ginny Wade. I wonder if one of those gals put the hard word on Mags and she took offence. ;)

anabolix
Feb 23rd, 2004, 03:07 AM
This is in response to both your posts to me.

As both Rollo & tennisvideos has said much more eloquently than me, this is NOT a cut and dry, black and white issue. There is a lot of gray area for a lot of people. Even Andy T, your biggest proponent in this thread, says he finds his opinion somewhere between yours and tennisvideos.

You have to put things in context. Just because Ms. Court holds this opinion about gays (shared by some Christians and not by others) does not mean she only sees the world through this lens. The grand majority of Chrisitians are hypocritical somewhere in their thinking; it's the nature of trying to take the Bible's teachings too literally. You claim to be a Christian, yet you won't extend your Christian love and tolerance to Ms. Court because she holds this one opinion. That's hypocritical.

As for the south moving on -- I'm guessing you're pretty young. Unless you lived in the 60's at the height of the bloodshed, you cannot say the South hasn't moved on from some of the attitudes that got Strom Thurmond into office.

And, sorry bro, that's how politics work. It's pretty ruthless, which is why more and more Americans are choosing to sit out during elections. Politicians will say whatever they have to say to keep their seat.

Being righteously indignant will do nothing but shorten your life and alienate you from people who might have supported your opinion. Do whatever you want to do in regards to this issue, but don't jump people like tennisvideos or Rollo or me because we won't join your bandwagon of promoting just as much intolerance. It's an exercise in futility.

Its my view that this is more of a black and white issue then you suggest. Personally, I think you either support equal rights for gays or u dont. U either think their nature is inherently sinful or you dont.
Racial segregation was a "grey" issue for a lot of people at one point. I doubt that anyone would accept those views as as an acceptable alternative view point nowadays. I think gay rights should be viewed the same way.

Mgt court is promulgating a view that gays are inherently sinful, and their monogomous loving partnerships are a bad influence on society and should be curbed. In this respect she is reiterating the official doctaine of many churches. It is not, thus, a maverick view, that I could overlook. Since she chose to put her opinions in the press, i reacted and opposed them vigorously.

Mgt Court might well do great things in her life. I'm not reacting to the rest of her life. Im reacting to her statements and views. Views she has reiterated one more than one occassion. IMO, they are reprehensible. I make no apologies for my indignation.

With a few exceptions, most of the responses in this thread were positive. Id like to think that most reading this agree with me or are at least willing to give my view consideration. Reputation points from others that did not post reassures me that many agree with me.

Few of the posters were hostile towards me or what i said.
I was not certainly personally "attacking" TV. All I was doing was asking what I thought were pertinent questions, and I think he did a good job of answering me. I might not agree with everything he said and I'm not sure that I would remain as big a fan of court if I were him, as a gay man, but thats his right. I respect it. Rollo, arrived later in the debate. I certainly didnt mean to attack him either.

Politics is a quagmire. Many politicians are dishonest. But I'm unwilling to be complacent about that either. Not voting is not the right response in my opinion. Standing up for what you believe works better. Which gets me back to my first post......... :)

Andy T
Feb 23rd, 2004, 03:38 AM
For what it's worth, anabolix, I don't think you came across as attacking Tennisvideos or Rollo. Your questions were clearly aimed at understanding better his position rather than pointing any finger.

While I personally am into the loving relationships bit, I don't think gays (or straights) who make alternative lifestyle choices should apologise for them either. I understand that this is a more delicate/controversial subject (and one which isn't covered by the initial quote) but frankly if some people choose to order their lives so that they separate emotional and sexual needs altogether, that's fine. Sometimes gay people almost seem like they're conceding that the traditional straight model is the only one when they say we are just like straights only our couples are same-sex.

Santorofan
Feb 23rd, 2004, 04:57 AM
Speaking for myself, I disagree with the actual title of this thread. Personally, I don't consider Court to be a bigot merely for expressing her religious beliefs (And BTW, neither is she in any way is related with David Duke!), as they are both principled and consistent with her particular genuine, deep spiritual faith. Further, it is her democratic right to express herself, just as Martina Navratilova has a right to express opposing opinions at national Gay Pride demonstations. This is what it means to live in a free society.

Is "celebrating diversity" only meant for those who share the same politically-correct beliefs? :confused:

Should Margaret Court be censored :tape: or kicked out of the International Tennis Hall of Fame???

I say "No." :)

tennisvideos
Feb 23rd, 2004, 06:08 AM
For what it's worth, anabolix, I don't think you came across as attacking Tennisvideos or Rollo. Your questions were clearly aimed at understanding better his position rather than pointing any finger.

While I personally am into the loving relationships bit, I don't think gays (or straights) who make alternative lifestyle choices should apologise for them either. I understand that this is a more delicate/controversial subject (and one which isn't covered by the initial quote) but frankly if some people choose to order their lives so that they separate emotional and sexual needs altogether, that's fine. Sometimes gay people almost seem like they're conceding that the traditional straight model is the only one when they say we are just like straights only our couples are same-sex.

I agree entirely with you on this post Andy T :) ... as for my post which indicated I was in a long term relationship - it wasn't meant to reflect it was the only model that is relevant or appropriate. I was just demonstrating the way I choose to conduct my life and try to make subtle influences on others without coercing them into accepting my lifestyle. IMO, any alternative lifestyle is acceptable, as I mentioned in an earlier post, as long as it isn't hurting others. Heck, a few of my closest friends are complete tarts. ;)

And I truly believe that everyone on this planet is an equal, no matter what - race, religion, gender, sexuality, colour, financial status, place in so called society etc. And likewise, everyone should have freedom to express their beliefs without being 'stoned' or 'hung' (metaphorically of course) for it.

Speaking for myself, I disagree with the actual title of this thread. Personally, I don't consider Court to be a bigot merely for expressing her religious beliefs (And BTW, neither is she in any way is related with David Duke!), as they are both principled and consistent with her particular genuine, deep spiritual faith. Further, it is her democratic right to express herself, just as Martina Navratilova has a right to express opposing opinions at national Gay Pride demonstations. This is what it means to live in a free society.

Is "celebrating diversity" only meant for those who share the same politically-correct beliefs? :confused:

Should Margaret Court be censored :tape: or kicked out of the International Tennis Hall of Fame???

I say "No." :)

Beautifully said Santorofan :worship:

~ The Leopard ~
Feb 23rd, 2004, 06:44 AM
While I personally am into the loving relationships bit, I don't think gays (or straights) who make alternative lifestyle choices should apologise for them either. I understand that this is a more delicate/controversial subject (and one which isn't covered by the initial quote) but frankly if some people choose to order their lives so that they separate emotional and sexual needs altogether, that's fine. Sometimes gay people almost seem like they're conceding that the traditional straight model is the only one when they say we are just like straights only our couples are same-sex.
:worship:

Andy T
Feb 23rd, 2004, 08:38 AM
I agree entirely with you on this post Andy T :) ... as for my post which indicated I was in a long term relationship - it wasn't meant to reflect it was the only model that is relevant or appropriate. I was just demonstrating the way I choose to conduct my life and try to make subtle influences on others without coercing them into accepting my lifestyle. IMO, any alternative lifestyle is acceptable, as I mentioned in an earlier post, as long as it isn't hurting others. Heck, a few of my closest friends are complete tarts. ;)

And I truly believe that everyone on this planet is an equal, no matter what - race, religion, gender, sexuality, colour, financial status, place in so called society etc. And likewise, everyone should have freedom to express their beliefs without being 'stoned' or 'hung' (metaphorically of course) for it.

Beautifully said Santorofan :worship:

hey tennisvideos, :wavey:

Don't worry , I realised that you weren't advocating your way as THE way - sorry if it came across otherwise. As I said, that's what would be right for me (I made 9 years but then it went pear-shaped: thank God there was no dog to fight for custody over - it would have been worse than Kramer versus Kramer).

I also agree with Santorofan's comments on freedom of expression.

tennisvideos
Feb 23rd, 2004, 09:08 AM
hey tennisvideos, :wavey:

Don't worry , I realised that you weren't advocating your way as THE way - sorry if it came across otherwise. As I said, that's what would be right for me (I made 9 years but then it went pear-shaped: thank God there was no dog to fight for custody over - it would have been worse than Kramer versus Kramer).

I also agree with Santorofan's comments on freedom of expression.

Hi AndyT

:lol: about the Kramer v Kramer fight for custody over the dog! I just bought a bunch of Meryl DVDs and that was one of them... :kiss:

Rollo
Feb 23rd, 2004, 09:30 AM
Just for the record-I never felt "attacked" Anabolix, and I hope you didn't:)

tennisvideos
Feb 23rd, 2004, 11:10 AM
Just for the record-I never felt "attacked" Anabolix, and I hope you didn't:)

Hi Rollo :wavey:

Nor did I. I have found the discussion lively and interesting and most posters on both sides have valid points. There have only been a few posts that do not warrant reading let alone responding to.

Even I am happy to admit that I am dissapointed with Marg's stance. Of course I am. But I can't begrudge her from upholding her beliefs. Otherwise I would be a hypocrite myself.... expecting tolerance and understanding and yet not offering it in return when other's hold a different belief system to myself.

DA FOREHAND
Feb 23rd, 2004, 02:42 PM
I think Maggie Court and Martina Navratilova should shut thier traps. Let Steffi and Chrissie speak!

anabolix
Feb 23rd, 2004, 04:36 PM
Speaking for myself, I disagree with the actual title of this thread. Personally, I don't consider Court to be a bigot merely for expressing her religious beliefs (And BTW, neither is she in any way is related with David Duke!), as they are both principled and consistent with her particular genuine, deep spiritual faith. Further, it is her democratic right to express herself, just as Martina Navratilova has a right to express opposing opinions at national Gay Pride demonstations. This is what it means to live in a free society.

Is "celebrating diversity" only meant for those who share the same politically-correct beliefs? :confused:

Should Margaret Court be censored :tape: or kicked out of the International Tennis Hall of Fame???

I say "No." :)

In a sense, i agree with you santorofan. But let me put it another way, and you might see where im coming from.
Were not just talking about religious beliefs here. The point of debate is a right of gays to a civil marriage, not a chruch one; the right to enjoy the legal rights that straight people enjoy. That is what MC was opposing in her statements. She was proposing that those rights be withheld from people who are nothing to do with her church and are not IMO doing anything wrong. In my book, thats a form of bigotry.

I personally dont think that religion makes any attitude more or less right or wrong. I respect peoples religious convictions, but not so far as to turn a blind eye when those convictions result in the rights of others being infringed.

Re: respecting another persons right ot a different opinion, sure, thats a given. But you have to be careful.... say for instance I was to say that blacks should not be allowed to attend the same schools as whites, or that they sould be denied voting powers or the right to marriage. In that scenario, I dont think that anyone should say " well I respect your different opinion, and i celebrate the diversity that you bring to society" and leave it at that. I'd like to think that they'd strenuously, indignantly and vociforously object to an offensive veiwpoint.

and to tennisvideos and rollo, im glad to hear you weren't feeling too much heat! :)

alfajeffster
Feb 23rd, 2004, 05:22 PM
I was raised in a fundamental, Baptist home. My mother was the pastor's secretary, and my 10th Grade History teacher. I know all too well how a personal biblical conviction can color an entire family's life and worldview. It is a great accomplishment to be able to survive this kind of stringent indoctrination and yet strive to maintain some semblance of balance and objectivity. Margaret Court is one of my favorite tennis players of the past. I am able to separate her personal views from my admiration of what she has accomplished on the tennis court. I don't think she actually called a press conference here to denounce gays or their legal rights. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the interviewer actively seek her our to "get the story" which is so relevant (and good press) with all that is going on in California and elsewhere right now? She merely expressed her views when asked. I don't agree with her views at all, but then again, I wouldn't have known about them had she not been asked by the interviewer and the article published as it was. Naturally, I disagree with her, but I will defend her right to express her views just as vigorously.

William Hunt
Feb 23rd, 2004, 06:10 PM
Any form of discrimination is disgraceful and Margaret Court, who I used to respect a lot for what she has achieved, has no lost all my respect.

arcus
Feb 24th, 2004, 02:06 AM
Congrats to (almost) everyone who contributed to this thread, especially anabollix, andy-t, tennisvideos, Darren Cahill, etc.

Intelligent comments, lively discussion. I learned and I enjoyed.

Pity that some tried to make it a fight rather than a debate.......

daze11
Feb 24th, 2004, 05:01 PM
Well, since DA FOREHAND asked chrissie to speak…there actually is a ‘fags&evert’ file. :lol: So on the topic, Evert has said she would be THRILLED if one of her boys was gay (" I think it would be fun! " she exclaimed.) She also says she encourages her boys to be without gender-boundary and if her boy wants to play with a doll, a doll he shall have!

Chrissie: champion tennis player, champion mommy.

I do think, with Chris having a severe catholic upbringing, she’s a good example that people cant help what religion they were born into, but they are responsible for where they take it from there. And while i'm not catholic--many of my friends are better catholics than the pope in my eyes, in that they know how to see the ‘one-ness’ in everyone and see all our differences as 'variety' rather than grounds for 'justifiable discrimination' as some 'religious' thinkers might. (Not that I am so sheltered to not understand that some people hold their religion TO THE LETTER and so make decisions based on that rather than their internal gauges.)

personally, i think chris' attitude is so good probably because she did have so many lesbian friends on tour; knew them and respected them. Margaret knew just as high a percentage of lesbians on tour in her day, so I'm surprised by her attitude in that...as with all prejudice, it usually evaporates with exposure. the more you know people, the less you can 'dehumanize' them by making them a 'category'. they stop being a category and start being human and real, and then you see GROUPS of people are filled with INDIVIDUALS, some of whom you'll take a liking to, some of whom you won't. To be a professional female athlete and think gayness is aberrant to nature... is an unnatural viewpoint for one so fully exposed to the issue as she. But again, I imagine she holds her religion to the letter…and certainly doesn’t appear to be promoting violence toward, or discrimination of, gays, even if she doesn’t approve of the lifestyle. If she’s promoting ‘help’—even though it isn’t help—she is not encouraging others in society to do ILL by GAYS, and THAT is, in the end, more help than harm, considering where a LOT of people’s heads are at regarding us Wonder-Gays. There are better attitudes that REALLy embrace gays openly (ie, chrissie) which does more good, but MC’s position seems fairly harmless.

daze11
Feb 24th, 2004, 05:30 PM
By the way, while not an australian event, there's plenty going on in the united states regarding gay marriage and those opposed to it. There's a petition in need of 200,000 signatures to support marriage for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender couples at http://www.MillionForMarriage.org .

It is a site in opposition to the right-wing extremists that are lobbying Congress right now during their so-called "Marriage Protection Week." And since nationality is not asked for adding the signature, I'm sure any of you can help drown out their anti-GLBT agenda.

Ukari
Feb 24th, 2004, 05:37 PM
Why? Because some people have no life so they have to worry about other people life.

You would think winning all those slams, travelling around the world several times would have helped her getting one. ;)

If there is god , Why does he keep hiding. Let him show his face and everyone
including me will believe. Until then , all the crap about religion , christians
and god is nothing but a tale for those low esteem ones who find confort in numbers and the promise of heaven somewhere up there.

Up there is nothing but the planets help together by the universal laws of physics. If you think Heaven is up there and your good lord has a kingdom there waiting for you , then I have this for you. You need you dumb head operated on and like all living organisms , when you die , that's it for you. Otherwise you will be seeing all the flies and maggots and beast upthere with you in the so called heaven.

have you ever asked yourself why most sins are comitted by so called those who wave the bible? Members of the clan and hitler are or were christians.
Why didn't god stop hitler or stalin or Idi Amin, or apatheid?
I feel sorry for the so call believers. The white man came to africa with his
bible and while the Africans were reading , he was raping , stealing , murdering and mayheming.
Any other questions? you want more. Bring it on.

alfajeffster
Feb 24th, 2004, 05:49 PM
By the way, while not an australian event, there's plenty going on in the united states regarding gay marriage and those opposed to it. There's a petition in need of 200,000 signatures to support marriage for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender couples at http://www.MillionForMarriage.org (http://www.millionformarriage.org/) .

It is a site in opposition to the right-wing extremists that are lobbying Congress right now during their so-called "Marriage Protection Week." And since nationality is not asked for adding the signature, I'm sure any of you can help drown out their anti-GLBT agenda.
Thanks for the link- just signed it! Re: Reverend Court's position, I feel that where she is coming from can and is just as wildly misconstrued as we see her views. There may be no happy medium when individual rights are in any way, shape or form impinged and restricted. I feel that the point where she crosses over and begins to denounce a particular lifestyle and actively speak against any minority's individual rights and protection and recognition under the law, is the point where she goes beyond anything that I have ever read in several versions of what is considered "the bible". If we took much of what is written in the bible literally, Mrs. Court should not be heard on the matter at all!

That said- this is a tennis chat room. Let's not make it our mission to denegrade and attack her views. She has just as much right to express them as we have to defend our civil rights as gay people. Join the debate, but please, in no way relate this debate to Margaret Smith Court's tennis achievements, and what she still has to contribute to the tennis world- especially in Australia. To my knowledge, she has not used her tennis accomplishments to further these extremist, right-wing fundamental Christian views. If she's able to separate the two- so should we.

anabolix
Feb 24th, 2004, 05:57 PM
Well, since DA FOREHAND asked chrissie to speak…there actually is a ‘fags&evert’ file. :lol: So on the topic, Evert has said she would be THRILLED if one of her boys was gay (" I think it would be fun! " she exclaimed.) She also says she encourages her boys to be without gender-boundary and if her boy wants to play with a doll, a doll he shall have!

Chrissie: champion tennis player, champion mommy.

I do think, with Chris having a severe catholic upbringing, she’s a good example that people cant help what religion they were born into, but they are responsible for where they take it from there. And while i'm not catholic--many of my friends are better catholics than the pope in my eyes, in that they know how to see the ‘one-ness’ in everyone and see all our differences as 'variety' rather than grounds for 'justifiable discrimination' as some 'religious' thinkers might. (Not that I am so sheltered to not understand that some people hold their religion TO THE LETTER and so make decisions based on that rather than their internal gauges.)

personally, i think chris' attitude is so good probably because she did have so many lesbian friends on tour; knew them and respected them. Margaret knew just as high a percentage of lesbians on tour in her day, so I'm surprised by her attitude in that...as with all prejudice, it usually evaporates with exposure. the more you know people, the less you can 'dehumanize' them by making them a 'category'. they stop being a category and start being human and real, and then you see GROUPS of people are filled with INDIVIDUALS, some of whom you'll take a liking to, some of whom you won't. To be a professional female athlete and think gayness is aberrant to nature... is an unnatural viewpoint for one so fully exposed to the issue as she. But again, I imagine she holds her religion to the letter…and certainly doesn’t appear to be promoting violence toward, or discrimination of, gays, even if she doesn’t approve of the lifestyle. If she’s promoting ‘help’—even though it isn’t help—she is not encouraging others in society to do ILL by GAYS, and THAT is, in the end, more help than harm, considering where a LOT of people’s heads are at regarding us Wonder-Gays. There are better attitudes that REALLy embrace gays openly (ie, chrissie) which does more good, but MC’s position seems fairly harmless.

Great post Daze11, and hats off to chris evert.

I disagree with you in one thing though. MC is pormoting discrimination. Read the first post. The point of her statements was to publically attack anti-homosexual discrimination legislation. THis legislation is designed to give gays equal rights in governmental, financial and family law areas. Publically opposing this antidiscrimination legislation has to be promoting discrimination :)

daze11
Feb 24th, 2004, 06:39 PM
Thanks, you're right...i read through the last couple of pages but didnt start at the beginning. (shrug shoulders) boy, its tough...because people's religion can really put a spin on their head...but as i did say with the chris post, its up to each person to do with that as they will, and we assume we are not discussing sheltered people who havent seen enough of people & the world to know better. If your feeling for humanity is genuine, I cant get myself into the headspace of someine who wuld not find acceptance on these issues. But obviously, much of the world does not. :rolleyes: i must admit this part of court's statement: "she said the ALP policy threatened the family unit and would play a part in the breakdown of society" is definitely a personal stance, more than a mere outgrowth of religious doctrine.

By the way, chris Evert also wrote an open letter to the press in defense of billie jean king when her lesbian scandal rocked the tennis world...she has always been a sympathizer for the cause!! here's the link to chris' letter 'in defense of billie jean'...considering its pre-aids 'silence equals death' public mentality, she did pretty well.
http://chrisevert.net/DefenseBJK.html
IMO, Chris, being 'Miss Queen hetero' was really placing herself in the line of fire for BJK, and had more to lose than gain by writing it.

anabolix
Feb 24th, 2004, 07:57 PM
Thanks, you're right...i read through the last couple of pages but didnt start at the beginning. (shrug shoulders) boy, its tough...because people's religion can really put a spin on their head...but as i did say with the chris post, its up to each person to do with that as they will, and we assume we are not discussing sheltered people who havent seen enough of people & the world to know better. If your feeling for humanity is genuine, I cant get myself into the headspace of someine who wuld not find acceptance on these issues. But obviously, much of the world does not. :rolleyes: i must admit this part of court's statement: "she said the ALP policy threatened the family unit and would play a part in the breakdown of society" is definitely a personal stance, more than a mere outgrowth of religious doctrine.

By the way, chris Evert also wrote an open letter to the press in defense of billie jean king when her lesbian scandal rocked the tennis world...she has always been a sympathizer for the cause!! here's the link to chris' letter 'in defense of billie jean'...considering its pre-aids 'silence equals death' public mentality, she did pretty well.
http://chrisevert.net/DefenseBJK.html
IMO, Chris, being 'Miss Queen hetero' was really placing herself in the line of fire for BJK, and had more to lose than gain by writing it.


Again, great post and link.
Chris Evert is a good ad for tennis, on and off of the court. She endures too... And is still supporting the game. Go Evert!

TennisFan75
Feb 25th, 2004, 01:52 AM
By the way, chris Evert also wrote an open letter to the press in defense of billie jean king when her lesbian scandal rocked the tennis world...she has always been a sympathizer for the cause!! here's the link to chris' letter 'in defense of billie jean'...considering its pre-aids 'silence equals death' public mentality, she did pretty well.
http://chrisevert.net/DefenseBJK.html
IMO, Chris, being 'Miss Queen hetero' was really placing herself in the line of fire for BJK, and had more to lose than gain by writing it.

Chris! :worship:

alfajeffster
Mar 2nd, 2004, 10:21 PM
Does anyone remember the press conference Margaret Court held at Wimbledon just before the Martina/Steffi final in 1987? It would be interesting to see a transcript of that conference, because she raised quite a stink then about the lesbian negative influence on the girls coming up into women's professional tennis- I seem to remember her declaring that lesbians were poor role models, etc. Anyone?

darren cahill
Mar 2nd, 2004, 10:23 PM
I remember her saying that too Jeff but didnt think it was that far back...i thought it was more recent..like right before Martina retired...the first or second time!

but jeff jeff jeff...why did you have to go and bump this thread again? ;) i thought it had died its natural death only to be resurrected:fiery:

alfajeffster
Mar 2nd, 2004, 10:28 PM
I remember her saying that too Jeff but didnt think it was that far back...i thought it was more recent..like right before Martina retired...the first or second time!

but jeff jeff jeff...why did you have to go and bump this thread again? ;) i thought it had died its natural death only to be resurrected:fiery:
What can I say- I was bored and tired of looking at someone asking me if I would trade for an Elena Bovina autograph- tedious.

Besides, I think it really would be interesting to compare the two articles. This "interview" is peppered with the interviewer's opinions and takes on what Margaret said, and precious little in the way of actual quotation. From my eye- that's what is referred to in the media as "sourcery"- quoting sources and opinions in the absence of real text from the interview. Besides- it's an election year- and there's no stopping all the political special interest machines now- why not bring a little of that old-fashioned "Billie Jean King changing the way society thinks, oh, and by the way, I also happen to play tennis" mentality back!:lol: