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DeDe4925
Feb 18th, 2004, 10:18 PM
I know that most No. 1's and GS winners go through this stage where everyone roots against them when they start winning because most people want to see the underdog overcome adversity.

In Chrissy's case it was because she seemed so cold and distant.
In Martina Nav's case it was because she was a Slovak beating Americans and everyone else during the cold war years. It didn't help matters much when she bulked up and came out of the closet as a lesbian.
In Steffi's case it was because she had such a rivalry with Monica, and then Monica got stabbed in Germany, which unfairly didn't warm anyone's heart to her in America.
In Martina Hingis case, she had a big mouth and superior attitude. Then when Venus came along and started to beat her consistently and everyone else and she was still No. 1, people resented her for being a paper champion.
Jennifer just didn't stay No. 1 long enough, and such may be the case with Venus. However, Venus continued to win, except against her sister. Which brings us to Serena. In Serena's case, it was because she was black in a predominantly white sport, she was relentless, self-confident and a ham. However, none of these No. 1 Champions seem to have been as despised, in my opinion, as Justine.

What is it about Justine?

dekker
Feb 18th, 2004, 10:19 PM
I really don't think that is the case with Serena.

JasonUK
Feb 18th, 2004, 10:26 PM
I think it's just because all these players were constantly winning - and the outcome of their matches could be pretty predictable. And normally people tend to support the underdog, and if your the world number 1 with long winning streaks, every opponent is classed as the underdog

DeDe4925
Feb 18th, 2004, 10:29 PM
I really don't think that is the case with Serena.
Well, what do you think is the case.

Also, I should have prefaced my thread opening with the fact that I used to be a fan of Justine. She used to be very diplomatic, supportive and unbiased of the Sisters when they started to win and others were against them. I respected her for not jumping on the hate Williams' bandwagon, like so many others did, such as Lindsay and JenCap. She was always objective and complimentary of their matches and style of play. I appreciated her beautiful backhand and her sportsmanship on the court. However, things changed for me regarding her when she displayed such poor sportsmanship during the RG semi-final against Serena. I was so disappointed in her that I was hurt. Soon after the final, her coach made that horrible statement about Serena and her family and that had it been anyone else, Justine would have spoken up. What did that mean? That the whole time she secretly despised the Williams and Serena in particular and everything was a lie? Then she started to say things in interviews that made her seem to want to win at any cost and it didn't matter whether anyone respected her or not. Then the unsportsmanlike conduct seemed to become more prevalent.

dekker
Feb 18th, 2004, 10:31 PM
well buddy... what I think is the case is that she was constantly winning. She made the ambitious statement at the beginning of last year that she wanted to go undefeated and that instantly made me want her to lose. Also her father is a little bit on the nutty side which is not going to endear her to fans. I feel that far too often people jump to the conclusion that it is racism anytime anything bad happens to these girls.

servenrichie
Feb 18th, 2004, 10:32 PM
Well, what do you think is the case.

Also, I should have prefaced my thread opening with the fact that I used to be a fan of Justine. She used to be very diplomatic, supportive and unbiased of the Sisters when they started to win and others were against them. I respected her for not jumping on the hate Williams' bandwagon, like so many others did, such as Lindsay and JenCap. She was always objective and complimentary of their matches and style of play. I appreciated her beautiful backhand and her sportsmanship on the court. However, things changed for me regarding her when she displayed such poor sportsmanship during the RG semi-final against Serena. I was so disappointed in her that I was hurt. Soon after the final, her coach made that horrible statement about Serena and her family and that had it been anyone else, Justine would have spoken up. What did that mean? That the whole time she secretly despised the Williams and Serena in particular and everything was a lie? Then she started to say things in interviews that made her seem to want to win at any cost and it didn't matter whether anyone respected her or not. Then the unsportsmanlike conduct seemed to become more prevalent.
:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

JasonUK
Feb 18th, 2004, 10:35 PM
Well, what do you think is the case.

Also, I should have prefaced my thread opening with the fact that I used to be a fan of Justine. She used to be very diplomatic, supportive and unbiased of the Sisters when they started to win and others were against them. I respected her for not jumping on the hate Williams' bandwagon, like so many others did, such as Lindsay and JenCap. She was always objective and complimentary of their matches and style of play. I appreciated her beautiful backhand and her sportsmanship on the court. However, things changed for me regarding her when she displayed such poor sportsmanship during the RG semi-final against Serena. I was so disappointed in her that I was hurt. Soon after the final, her coach made that horrible statement about Serena and her family and that had it been anyone else, Justine would have spoken up. What did that mean? That the whole time she secretly despised the Williams and Serena in particular and everything was a lie? Then she started to say things in interviews that made her seem to want to win at any cost and it didn't matter whether anyone respected her or not. Then the unsportsmanlike conduct seemed to become more prevalent.

True on some parts, but on others you're making it seem like a TV soap opera :rolleyes:

DeDe4925
Feb 18th, 2004, 10:37 PM
well buddy... what I think is the case is that she was constantly winning. She made the ambitious statement at the beginning of last year that she wanted to go undefeated and that instantly made me want her to lose. Also her father is a little bit on the nutty side which is not going to endear her to fans. I feel that far too often people jump to the conclusion that it is racism anytime anything bad happens to these girls.
So, you despise ambition? You want anyone to fail who has aspirations of being the best and reaching the top of the mountain? Did the antics of JenCap's father reflect on her? Did the antics of Dokic's father reflect on her? Did the antics of Alexandra's mother reflect on her? I'm not arguing that the reasons you gave are not reasonable in your mind. I'm just saying that they don't seem valid to me, looking at the whole picture without bringing race into it.

DeDe4925
Feb 18th, 2004, 10:39 PM
True on some parts, but on others you're making it seem like a TV soap opera :rolleyes:
Well, you tell me what you think? What parts do you agree with and why and what parts don't you agree with and why?

beauty_is_pink
Feb 18th, 2004, 10:40 PM
think it was because she wasnt honest at RG against Serena.. even i dont like Serena (i like Justine more) i was surprised and somewhat loss respect in Justine for not telling the whole truth.

for-sure
Feb 18th, 2004, 10:42 PM
Justine will always be very much liked. She still has GREAT fans that know the game and will stand by her! :)

for-sure
Feb 18th, 2004, 10:42 PM
well buddy... what I think is the case is that she was constantly winning. She made the ambitious statement at the beginning of last year that she wanted to go undefeated and that instantly made me want her to lose. Also her father is a little bit on the nutty side which is not going to endear her to fans. I feel that far too often people jump to the conclusion that it is racism anytime anything bad happens to these girls.

HAIL!

I was proud of Justine standing up to the school yard bully :)
You GO GIRL!
That is what Serena gets for that cut-eye..."How dare you hit a winner against "Miss.Serena Williams, the Queen of the WTA Tour, the ALPHA and the OMEGA of the sport"

Next time, Justine, use that hand for some RUSTY B!TCH slapping

DeDe4925
Feb 18th, 2004, 10:47 PM
HAIL!

I was proud of Justine standing up to the school yard bully :)
You GO GIRL!
That is what Serena gets for that cut-eye..."How dare you hit a winner against "Miss.Serena Williams, the Queen of the WTA Tour, the ALPHA and the OMEGA of the sport"

Next time, Justine, use that hand for some RUSTY B!TCH slapping
LOL, for-sure you're such a little whiney bitch. :)

SerialKiller#69
Feb 18th, 2004, 10:48 PM
I don't think she's as despised as you think. :confused:

It's just your anger, grudge, and disappointment rolled together to make you think that way. I think.

faste5683
Feb 18th, 2004, 10:50 PM
I know that most No. 1's and GS winners go through this stage where everyone roots against them when they start winning because most people want to see the underdog overcome adversity.

In Chrissy's case it was because she seemed so cold and distant.
In Martina Nav's case it was because she was a Slovak beating Americans and everyone else during the cold war years. It didn't help matters much when she bulked up and came out of the closet as a lesbian.
In Steffi's case it was because she had such a rivalry with Monica, and then Monica got stabbed in Germany, which unfairly didn't warm anyone's heart to her in America.
In Martina Hingis case, she had a big mouth and superior attitude. Then when Venus came along and started to beat her consistently and everyone else and she was still No. 1, people resented her for being a paper champion.
Jennifer just didn't stay No. 1 long enough, and such may be the case with Venus. However, Venus continued to win, except against her sister. Which brings us to Serena. In Serena's case, it was because she was black in a predominantly white sport, she was relentless, self-confident and a ham. However, none of these No. 1 Champions seem to have been as despised, in my opinion, as Justine.

What is it about Justine?

Despised by who, Dee? Btw, I like(ed) ALL the players that you've listed; sounds like a personal thingy to me. :eek: Love you anyway...:smooch:

:wavey:

for-sure
Feb 18th, 2004, 10:50 PM
I bet that if Justine would play against Serena on AMERICAN SOIL (OR ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD) you would hear more cheers for her.

DeDe4925
Feb 18th, 2004, 10:53 PM
I don't think she's as despised as you think. :confused:

It's just your anger, grudge, and disappointment rolled together to make you think that way. I think.
No, not at all. You're very mistaken. I'm judging from all the hate mail that Jon Wertheim talks about getting on SI.com. I'm talking about other tennis board posters that seem to despise her even more than they do the Sisters. The question has been nagging at me for quite some time. The hatred for Justine, seems to have gotten worse since the AO final against Kim. I think it's a very legitimate question that deserves discussion. Instead of trying to turn it around to ragging on the Williams' sisters or their fans, try looking at it objectively and answering the question.

tennisIlove09
Feb 18th, 2004, 10:54 PM
I always liked Justine, much more then I liked Clijsters. I think she has always had a better game then Kim. I rooted for Justine in almost every match she played (except when she played one of my faves).


Then came a day last May, possibly early June. A day of the Roland Garros semi finals. Her hand. The lie. The cheat.

All respect that I had for her was gone. I don't think anything....ANYTHING will get it back.

DeDe4925
Feb 18th, 2004, 10:57 PM
Despised by who, Dee? Btw, I like(ed) ALL the players that you've listed; sounds like a personal thingy to me. :eek: Love you anyway...:smooch:

:wavey:
By a lot of people Ed. I liked all those players too. I'm just mentioning the reasons that I've heard as to why those players at No. 1 went through a phase where they were not well regarded by the fans. Of course, once they either retired or became legends they became loved and respected. It's not personal sonny, it's business. ;)

servenrichie
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:01 PM
I bet that if Justine would play against Serena on AMERICAN SOIL (OR ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD) you would hear more cheers for her.No, no, no not everywhere in the world. Only in predominantly white places and America IS a predominantly white place, would she get more cheers. I dont need to spell out why for you, do I. You may be quite stupid, but I 'm sure you can figure out yourself why:p

servenrichie
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:03 PM
I always liked Justine, much more then I liked Clijsters. I think she has always had a better game then Kim. I rooted for Justine in almost every match she played (except when she played one of my faves).


Then came a day last May, possibly early June. A day of the Roland Garros semi finals. Her hand. The lie. The cheat.

All respect that I had for her was gone. I don't think anything....ANYTHING will get it back.
Ditto:o :devil:

Jakeev
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:04 PM
I have to agree with some other people that this thread is rather cynical if you ask me.

So who hates her so much exactly? I could tell you who but I think we already know the answer to that and it has to do with people who love Kim and Serena.

Wasn't it Justine who was named WTAworld hero of the year for 2003? Isn't she huge in Belgium and Europe?

Don't be so dramatic people. Many may have issues with Justine for some of her "antics" but I hardly consider her to be "despised."

Martian Willow
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:05 PM
:zzz: ...Justine...Serena...RG...the hand...sportsmanship...gamesmanship...cheating...b ad loser...arrogance...terrible dress sense...black people this...white people that...etc...etc... :zzz:

:)

sartrista7
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:05 PM
No, not at all. You're very mistaken. I'm judging from all the hate mail that Jon Wertheim talks about getting on SI.com. I'm talking about other tennis board posters that seem to despise her even more than they do the Sisters.

Oh, don't be silly. If you haven't already noticed, at least 90% of tennis message board posters are morons, or 12-year-old kids. And they're probably the same people who write the hate mail. Look around WTAWorld... how many of these posters can you take remotely seriously? Justine's 'haters' are hardly representative of tennis fans worldwide; merely those with the inclination to spend half their lives being bitter about a tennis player they don't like on the internet.

The 'cheating' thing is being blown waaaaay out of proportion, too. Justine was unsporting, but no more so than a player who sees that a ball is in, but keeps their mouth shut when it is called out - and every player has done that. Justine didn't have to lie, because the umpire never asked her anything. She kept her mouth shut and the bad officiating went her way, just like it's gone Serena, Steffi, Martina, Venus, whoever's way in the past.

As you said: "So, you despise ambition? You want anyone to fail who has aspirations of being the best and reaching the top of the mountain?" That's what Justine has. That's what fuels all those statements you hear from her - she's standing up to Serena's intimidation factor. Do you hate her because of that?

DeDe4925
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:05 PM
No, no, no not everywhere in the world. Only in predominantly white places and America IS a predominantly white place, would she get more cheers. I dont need to spell out why for you, do I. You may be quite stupid, but I 'm sure you can figure out yourself why:p
I doubt that Justine would get more cheers now. For one thing, she speaks French (An American No No ;)), she beat sweet little Kim at the AO, Serena's been out with injury, therefore she's the underdog at No. 6, and Justine is considered a "cheat" by many here in the US.

sartrista7
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:05 PM
Or, what Jakeev and Willow said.

SJW
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:07 PM
i don't like Justine because i think she's a boring person. she just doesn't appeal to me. i like all the number 1s you listed. it's not even the hand thing...it started before that. probably 02, comments she made about the sisiters, her comments in Zurich...

i think she's a great player, but as a person, not my cup of tea

for-sure
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:08 PM
No, no, no not everywhere in the world. Only in predominantly white places and America IS a predominantly white place, would she get more cheers. I dont need to spell out why for you, do I. You may be quite stupid, but I 'm sure you can figure out yourself why:p


are you saying that if Serena played a white girl in front of a 100% black crowd you are sure they would be cheering for Serena. Wouldn't that be a little RACIST on part of the black crowd? :taped:

faste5683
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:09 PM
[QUOTE=DeMond]By a lot of people Ed.

How much is a lot? More than most? Less than least?

I want nothing but the facts, ma'am. :wavey:

faste5683
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:13 PM
Oh, don't be silly. If you haven't already noticed, at least 90% of tennis message board posters are morons, or 12-year-old kids. And they're probably the same people who write the hate mail. Look around WTAWorld... how many of these posters can you take remotely seriously? Justine's 'haters' are hardly representative of tennis fans worldwide; merely those with the inclination to spend half their lives being bitter about a tennis player they don't like on the internet.

The 'cheating' thing is being blown waaaaay out of proportion, too. Justine was unsporting, but no more so than a player who sees that a ball is in, but keeps their mouth shut when it is called out - and every player has done that. Justine didn't have to lie, because the umpire never asked her anything. She kept her mouth shut and the bad officiating went her way, just like it's gone Serena, Steffi, Martina, Venus, whoever's way in the past.

As you said: "So, you despise ambition? You want anyone to fail who has aspirations of being the best and reaching the top of the mountain?" That's what Justine has. That's what fuels all those statements you hear from her - she's standing up to Serena's intimidation factor. Do you hate her because of that?

:worship: :worship:

:wavey:

DeDe4925
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:14 PM
Oh, don't be silly. If you haven't already noticed, at least 90% of tennis message board posters are morons, or 12-year-old kids. And they're probably the same people who write the hate mail. Look around WTAWorld... how many of these posters can you take remotely seriously? Justine's 'haters' are hardly representative of tennis fans worldwide; merely those with the inclination to spend half their lives being bitter about a tennis player they don't like on the internet.

The 'cheating' thing is being blown waaaaay out of proportion, too. Justine was unsporting, but no more so than a player who sees that a ball is in, but keeps their mouth shut when it is called out - and every player has done that. Justine didn't have to lie, because the umpire never asked her anything. She kept her mouth shut and the bad officiating went her way, just like it's gone Serena, Steffi, Martina, Venus, whoever's way in the past.

As you said: "So, you despise ambition? You want anyone to fail who has aspirations of being the best and reaching the top of the mountain?" That's what Justine has. That's what fuels all those statements you hear from her - she's standing up to Serena's intimidation factor. Do you hate her because of that?

LOL, don't be subjective. I don't have any hate at all for her. I don't begrudge her anything. She is the one who has to live with herself, not me. What's silly is this statement: "...at least 90% of tennis message board posters are morons, or 12-year-old kids". I don't believe that tennis is that popular in that age group. I think 12 year olds are more concerned with trying to get into adult chat rooms than tennis message boards :smash: . How do you know that Justine's haters are hardly representative of tennis fans worldwide? Have you taken a poll?

Speaking of being bitter, you seem to have swallowed one of those pills yourself. Need some water? :drink:

Crazy Canuck
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:15 PM
I don't think she's as despised as you think. :confused:

It's just your anger, grudge, and disappointment rolled together to make you think that way. I think.
When I was at the USO, I walked by a number of conversations where people were dishing about Justine. One of these conversations was particularly humerous.

I was trying to watch Moya-Nadal practice in peace, and was rudely interupted by these loud catty women who were complaining that "Justine just has NO glamour. Ugh. *insert a flip of the hair here*" Then they called her a liar, a cheater, and a number of other things. In about two minutes of listening to these babbling fools shrew away, I came to the conclusion that they were really 14 year olds who had been transplanted into the body of 40 year old women, ala the parent trap. I was somewhat concerned for them, but my loathing of them allowed me to ignore any compassion I might have originally had. They were ruining the Moya-Nadal practice for me! By being 12! I don't need to experience wtaworld in person, thanks ;)

SJW
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:15 PM
are you saying that if Serena played a white girl in front of a 100% black crowd you are sure they would be cheering for Serena. Wouldn't that be a little RACIST on part of the black crowd? :taped:
so you understand the theory that there is some racial element to people cheering against the sisters?

WOW :wavey:

servenrichie
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:17 PM
are you saying that if Serena played a white girl in front of a 100% black crowd you are sure they would be cheering for Serena. Wouldn't that be a little RACIST on part of the black crowd? :taped:Sort out the racism going on everyday on the part of the white crowd first before engaging into hypothetical questions. Sheesh, are you this daft?

Crazy Canuck
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:19 PM
Sort out the racism going on everyday on the part of the white crowd first before engaging into hypothetical questions. Sheesh, are you this daft?
I don't think that he/she is... but you are, if you haven't figured out that all he/she is trying to do is push your buttons.

Crazy Canuck
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:20 PM
so you understand the theory that there is some racial element to people cheering against the sisters?

WOW :wavey:
Yours too, apparently (buttons.... pushed... that is). Really, I'm sort of dissapointed. Servenrichie is a complete fucking idiot, I expect this from him... but you, SJW? We all have our off days, I suppose ;)

DeDe4925
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:21 PM
[QUOTE=DeMond]By a lot of people Ed.

How much is a lot? More than most? Less than least?

I want nothing but the facts, ma'am. :wavey:
More than I'd like to count. The facts are that I don't have an exact number and I didn't do a poll. It just seems to me that I see an inordinate number of people hating on this girl, when it wasn't like that before she started to win. I asked a simple question, "when and why did Justine become so despised". Most of you Justine fans seem to be offended with the question when it wasn't meant that way. It was meant to illicit honest responses of what people really thought. If it's not a concern of yours, that's fine, say so. But, don't get personal with me because I asked what I thought was a legitimate question. Turning the animosity for this on me for asking the question is not going to make it go away.
:smooch: Still love you too Ed.

servenrichie
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:21 PM
I don't think that he/she is... but you are, if you haven't figured out that all he/she is trying to do is push your buttons.Bug off Rebecca, not interested in any conversation with you. You know why, you have no opinions- always going wherever the wind is blowing:tape:

sartrista7
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:22 PM
LOL, don't be subjective. I don't have any hate at all for her. I don't begrudge her anything. She is the one who has to live with herself, not me. What's silly is this statement: "...at least 90% of tennis message board posters are morons, or 12-year-old kids". I don't believe that tennis is that popular in that age group. I think 12 year olds are more concerned with trying to get into adult chat rooms than tennis message boards :smash: .

Have you read any of the typical posts here? If they're not 12 years old, these posters are incredibly immature. There are examples right here in this thread. Incidentally, despite your pious disapproval, I'm sure Justine has no problem living with herself. Why should she have?

How do you know that Justine's haters are hardly representative of tennis fans worldwide? Have you taken a poll?

Er, no. I just speak to quite a lot of people who follow tennis. In real life. Normal people. As opposed to WTAWorld people.

Speaking of being bitter, you seem to have swallowed one of those pills yourself. Need some water? :drink:

Bitter... about what? I really don't care how Justine is perceived. I support her, but she's not my favourite player by any means.

Volcana
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:22 PM
1) This board is not necessarily representative of the worldwide tennis fan base

2) Justine isn't warm and fuzzy. Not that she's a bad person or anything, but she doesn't seem friendly, or like she has a sense of humor. I'm sure she does, but it doesn't come across on camera.

3) Badmouthing other players never helps. Regardless of how she FELT while Venus and Serena were winning everything, she would have been better served by more politically correct answers. 'People will get bored by the same players winning' sounded like sour grapes.

4) 'The hand'. Getting caught cheating NEVER helps. Getting caught cheating in a sport where honor and sportsmanship are supposed to have meaning is worse. FAR worse, half the tennis world saw her. And then Carlos Rodriguez made it all worse by saying Justine wouldn't have done that exceopt it was one of the Williams sisters. I'm sure he didn't mean it to sound that way, but it sounded like he was admitting she cheated, but hated that particualr opponent so much, she flet cheating was okay. (She REALLY needs to shut him up.)

5) When you read the rest of this, please bear in mind, I say this as a Williams fan. (Well, a Venus fan really, but I DO lkike watching Serena play. It's just not a big deal to meif she loses.)

The overt racism that was evident after Venus made the 1997 US Open final had some unintended effects. A lot of people denied race had anything to do with it. And it seemed to me that SOME Williams fans have responded to that with an attitutde of, 'if it wasn't race, then we can legitemately be just as nasty about any other player as people were about Venus'. The level of discourse has dropped ever since. The level of naistiness just got worse and worse. Lindsay Davenport, whorarely says anything negative, and apologiozes for most of it, took quite a beating. So did Jenn. People STILL would rather imply Martina Hingis is a coward than take her word (and her doctor's) for the fact that her feet can't take the six hours a stay pounding her training regimen would require. The heat Justine is taking is just more of same.

That's the basic attitude. 'If all the nasty things siad about Venus WEREN'T motivated by race, then it's okay to be just as nasty about anyone else'. And since no one who said any of those things is going to admit they WERE motivated by racial bias, things are only going to get worse.

And if it sounds like I'm dumping a large share of the blame of my fellow WIlliams fans, well, I am. Yes, it's a reaction to having to read threads where posters advocated having Venus and Serena injured, thrown off the tour, and even raped and murdered, but the targets these days are often people who had nothing to do with that. All too often in life though, that's the outcome of ignoring cruelty to others. Cruelty goes from infrequent to commonplace, and then from commonplace to directed at YOU.

The only players I can see making it to #1 without being slagged mercilessly would be Chanda Rubin or Ai Sugiyama. And of course, the odds of either of them GETTING to #1 ....

servenrichie
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:23 PM
Yours too, apparently (buttons.... pushed... that is). Really, I'm sort of dissapointed. Servenrichie is a complete fucking idiot, I expect this from him... but you, SJW? We all have our off days, I suppose ;)Rebecca is calling someone an idiot? Coming from you, that's a compliment, you fucking moron:devil:

tennisIlove09
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:25 PM
1) This board is not necessarily representative of the worldwide tennis fan base

2) Justine isn't warm and fuzzy. Not that she's a bad person or anything, but she doesn't seem friendly, or like she has a sense of humor. I'm sure she does, but it doesn't come across on camera.

3) Badmouthing other players never helps. Regardless of how she FELT while Venus and Serena were winning everything, she would have been better served by more politically correct answers. 'People will get bored by the same players winning' sounded like sour grapes.

4) 'The hand'. Getting caught cheating NEVER helps. Getting caught cheating in a sport where honor and sportsmanship are supposed to have meaning is worse. FAR worse, half the tennis world saw her. And then Carlos Rodriguez made it all worse by saying Justine wouldn't have done that exceopt it was one of the Williams sisters. I'm sure he didn't mean it to sound that way, but it sounded like he was admitting she cheated, but hated that particualr opponent so much, she flet cheating was okay. (She REALLY needs to shut him up.)

5) When you read the rest of this, please bear in mind, I say this as a Williams fan. (Well, a Venus fan really, but I DO lkike watching Serena play. It's just not a big deal to meif she loses.)

The overt racism that was evident after Venus made the 1997 US Open final had some unintended effects. A lot of people denied race had anything to do with it. And it seemed to me that SOME Williams fans have responded to that with an attitutde of, 'if it wasn't race, then we can legitemately be just as nasty about any other player as people were about Venus'. The level of discourse has dropped ever since. The level of naistiness just got worse and worse. Lindsay Davenport, whorarely says anything negative, and apologiozes for most of it, took quite a beating. So did Jenn. People STILL would rather imply Martina Hingis is a coward than take her word (and her doctor's) for the fact that her feet can't take the six hours a stay pounding her training regimen would require. The heat Justine is taking is just more of same.

That's the basic attitude. 'If all the nasty things siad about Venus WEREN'T motivated by race, then it's okay to be just as nasty about anyone else'. And since no one who said any of those things is going to admit they WERE motivated by racial bias, things are only going to get worse.

And if it sounds like I'm dumping a large share of the blame of my fellow WIlliams fans, well, I am. Yes, it's a reaction to having to read threads where posters advocated having Venus and Serena injured, thrown off the tour, and even raped and murdered, but the targets these days are often people who had nothing to do with that. All too often in life though, that's the outcome of ignoring cruelty to others. Cruelty goes from infrequent to commonplace, and then from commonplace to directed at YOU.

The only players I can see making it to #1 without being slagged mercilessly would be Chanda Rubin or Ai Sugiyama. And of course, the odds of either of them GETTING to #1 ....
:worship: :worship:

Best post of the year!

SJW
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:25 PM
Yours too, apparently (buttons.... pushed... that is). Really, I'm sort of dissapointed. Servenrichie is a complete fucking idiot, I expect this from him... but you, SJW? We all have our off days, I suppose ;)
what? what did i do?! :p

i'm just messing around with for-sure...we're um...old friends ;)

yes servenrichie is a complete fucking idiot, but what do you want me to do? i've been ignoring him/her/it for the past year now, i'm not about to stop ;)

JasonUK
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:25 PM
Well, you tell me what you think? What parts do you agree with and why and what parts don't you agree with and why?

Well, I agree with the first part of your post and the part about losing respect for Justine after the RG semis incident, but I'm over that - I'm still a fan of her's, even if it wasn't the fairest thing to do.

The part I disagree with is the whole "OMG! What if she lied to the Williams sisters? What if she had an evil plot all along? What if she takes over the world with her lies and unsportsmanship? :scared: We're all dooooooommed!! :bolt: It's all lies I tell you, LIES!!! :fiery:"

Calm down!!

And the bit about wanting to win at any cost - what player doesn't want to win? They're in it to win it! I know that realistically some players wont win much, and they know that - but they go into a match with an attitude that they want to win, otherwise there's no point at all.

servenrichie
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:26 PM
what? what did i do?! :p

i'm just messing around with for-sure...we're um...old friends ;)

yes servenrichie is a complete fucking idiot, but what do you want me to do? i've been ignoring him/her/it for the past year now, i'm not about to stop ;)Talk of bats and vultures. An unholy alliance!:angel:

SJW
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:29 PM
Talk of bats and vultures. An unholy alliance!:angel:no seriously, you are an idiot.

you bait, you're disrespectful, you're over the top and you're annoying.

why would you care what i think anyway? i'm a fake Williams fan remember? (yes i have a great LTMS and yes i can hold a grudge with the best of them.....)

DelMonte
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:43 PM
[QUOTE=Volcana]
The overt racism that was evident after Venus made the 1997 US Open final had some unintended effects. A lot of people denied race had anything to do with it. And it seemed to me that SOME Williams fans have responded to that with an attitutde of, 'if it wasn't race, then we can legitemately be just as nasty about any other player as people were about Venus'. The level of discourse has dropped ever since. The level of naistiness just got worse and worse. Lindsay Davenport, whorarely says anything negative, and apologiozes for most of it, took quite a beating. So did Jenn.



Volcana, what happened at the 97 US open?

DelMonte

alextreiber04
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:43 PM
I never liked nor hated Justine before RG '03 but after it I have despised her with a passion.

So to answer your question, RG '03.

servenrichie
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:43 PM
no seriously, you are an idiot.

you bait, you're disrespectful, you're over the top and you're annoying.

why would you care what i think anyway? i'm a fake Williams fan remember? (yes i have a great LTMS and yes i can hold a grudge with the best of them.....)A grudge according to you translates to idiocy and you have the nerve to call someone an idiot?
I am watching to bitch-slap you when you make such commentaries that attracted my criticisms in the first place. You were such an ass when you joined the board. From what I see you actually learnt, so all is not lost:p

That you still hold grudges is not a suprise. That's what small minds do anyway:tape:

alextreiber04
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:44 PM
[QUOTE=Volcana]
The overt racism that was evident after Venus made the 1997 US Open final had some unintended effects. A lot of people denied race had anything to do with it. And it seemed to me that SOME Williams fans have responded to that with an attitutde of, 'if it wasn't race, then we can legitemately be just as nasty about any other player as people were about Venus'. The level of discourse has dropped ever since. The level of naistiness just got worse and worse. Lindsay Davenport, whorarely says anything negative, and apologiozes for most of it, took quite a beating. So did Jenn.



Volcana, what happened at the 97 US open?

DelMonte

Well the 1st thing was that stupid Romanian bitch (Irina) running into Venus and then smirking after it happened.

Then I guess it was just Richard on one of his mad rants about his daughters being made of run of racially. :shrug:

JasonUK
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:45 PM
no seriously, you are an idiot.

you bait, you're disrespectful, you're over the top and you're annoying.

:worship: :worship: :worship:

flyingmachine
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:45 PM
All you need to know is that everyone are human this includes Justine and Serena. Human nature are not always morally correct and I'm sure everyone in this forum and beyond did something that are morally incorrect sometime during ours lifes.

That's all I could say in this stupid topic of despised. :(

DeDe4925
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:45 PM
Well, I agree with the first part of your post and the part about losing respect for Justine after the RG semis incident, but I'm over that - I'm still a fan of her's, even if it wasn't the fairest thing to do.

The part I disagree with is the whole "OMG! What if she lied to the Williams sisters? What if she had an evil plot all along? What if she takes over the world with her lies and unsportsmanship? :scared: We're all dooooooommed!! :bolt: It's all lies I tell you, LIES!!! :fiery:"

Calm down!!

And the bit about wanting to win at any cost - what player doesn't want to win? They're in it to win it! I know that realistically some players wont win much, and they know that - but they go into a match with an attitude that they want to win, otherwise there's no point at all.
Come on, who's making it a soap opera? I didn't say it like that at all. All I said in essence was that I was shocked that someone could be so deceitful and for what? Yes, I think that players go out there to win, but not at all costs. If you win like that, then what does it mean?

DeDe4925
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:49 PM
All you need to know is that everyone are human this includes Justine and Serena. Human nature are not always morally correct and I'm sure everyone in this forum and beyond did something that are morally incorrect sometime during ours lifes.

That's all I could say in this stupid topic of despised. :(
Thank you for your comment, but if you think it's so stupid, why post here? Secondly, how dare you criticize something for which you have neither the guts or the intelligence to do.

SJW
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:50 PM
A grudge according to you translates to idiocy and you have the nerve to call someone an idiot?
I am watching to bitch-slap you when you make such commentaries that attracted my criticisms in the first place. You were such an ass when you joined the board. From what I see you actually learnt, so all is not lost:pi have the nerve only because you ARE an idiot. that's my sole reasoning.

i'm not getting into this...i was just letting the Canuck girl know that i don't condone your behaviour, and neither do i see you as a Williams fan. i see you as vermin. i'm sorry, but the only reason i was an "ass" when i joined is because the hate is being rallied by both sides, and i thought all williams fans were perfect like me (ok, so ignore that last part)

if i do not find it acceptable for people to be plain rude towards the sisters, it would make me somewhat of a hypocrite (which i am, but not in this case) to accept your rudeness to all other players who don't have the surname "Williams"....so instead of arguing with you (which i'm cursing myself for doing at this present moment in time), i prefer to ignore you (which may make me a coward, but a happy coward :))

SJW

JasonUK
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:53 PM
Come on, who's making it a soap opera? I didn't say it like that at all. All I said in essence was that I was shocked that someone could be so deceitful and for what? Yes, I think that players go out there to win, but not at all costs. If you win like that, then what does it mean?

You may not have said it like that, but you gave me the impression you were :rolleyes:

And if players win like that - big deal! They still win which is a good thing incase you haven't noticed

calabar
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:57 PM
Everyone at the top becomes despised at one time or another. Deal with it.

Volcana
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:59 PM
[QUOTE=Volcana]Volcana, what happened at the 97 US open?

DelMonte
Venus lost 4-6 0-6 to Hingis, if I recall correctly. :)

Actually, it's not what happened AT the USOpen. It's what happened afterward. I wasn't kidding about posts advocating rape and murder. I forget if it was aol or cnnsi but they actually CLOSED their tennis baords altogether, the post were so nasty.

The long list if 'Venus will nevers ....' were actually okay with me.

'Venus will never win a tournament'
'Venus will never win big a tournament'
'Venus will never win a Tier I tournament'
'Venus will never win a GS tournament'
'Venus will never be #1 tournament'

But the 'Venus is ugly' , 'Venus looks like a Gorilla', 'Venus has muscles like a man' stuff got old fast. The 'there's no racism in tennis stuff' just left you laughing. But the 'I hoped she gets raped' 'I hope she breaks her leg' stuff just summoned up visions of Monica. There was just so much raw HATE. And not what people CALL hate on the boards now, most of which is just good old fashion sports rivalries. But honest to God wishing Venus injured or dead. There's a reason Venus has had a bodyguard since then.

But on top of ALL of that, there was thread after thread, post after post saying there was NOTHING racial in any of it. I suppose Indian Wells 2001 was the tipping point. When the crowd booed Serena coming out for the final, even the announcers were shocked. But here on the board, there was the same old crowd saying 'there's nothing racial in it'.

After that, it was pretty much open warfare.

Dawn Marie
Feb 18th, 2004, 11:59 PM
WHEN: RG 03 final

WHY: CAUSE SHE IS A CHEETAH and alot of dedicated sports fans just don't like CHEETAH'S!

DeDe4925
Feb 19th, 2004, 12:00 AM
Have you read any of the typical posts here? If they're not 12 years old, these posters are incredibly immature. There are examples right here in this thread. Incidentally, despite your pious disapproval, I'm sure Justine has no problem living with herself. Why should she have?



Er, no. I just speak to quite a lot of people who follow tennis. In real life. Normal people. As opposed to WTAWorld people.



Bitter... about what? I really don't care how Justine is perceived. I support her, but she's not my favourite player by any means.
If your post is any example of a typical post, I can understand your sentiment. However, the majority of the posts from the regulars are very intelligent and respectful. If you feel that way about this message board, why do you post here?

"Pious disapproval"?? LOL I don't pretend to be her judge. Hence my statement, she has to live with herself.

LOL do you think you're the only one who speaks to people about tennis in real life?

"Bitter... about what? I really don't care how Justine is perceived." Thank you for answering your own question. LOL Have a great day. :)

faste5683
Feb 19th, 2004, 12:02 AM
The only players I can see making it to #1 without being slagged mercilessly would be Chanda Rubin or Ai Sugiyama. And of course, the odds of either of them GETTING to #1 ....

Oh, I'm sure somebody would find something to slag those two about. :mad:

:wavey:

DeDe4925
Feb 19th, 2004, 12:04 AM
You may not have said it like that, but you gave me the impression you were :rolleyes:

And if players win like that - big deal! They still win which is a good thing incase you haven't noticed

"You may not have said it like that, but you gave me the impression you were"
Gave you the impression I was what? :confused:

"And if players win like that - big deal! They still win which is a good thing incase you haven't noticed"
What are you 8 years old? Live a little longer, then you'll understand why it's a big deal.

bw2082
Feb 19th, 2004, 12:05 AM
Justine comes off as being cold and aloof for some reason... it's like Martha Stewart minus the evil :)

JasonUK
Feb 19th, 2004, 12:05 AM
WHEN: RG 03 final

WHY: CAUSE SHE IS A CHEETAH and alot of dedicated sports fans just don't like CHEETAH'S!

Erm, hate to point out the obvious here but cheetahs are animals...animals don't play tennis

...Not that I know of anyway

DeDe4925
Feb 19th, 2004, 12:05 AM
Everyone at the top becomes despised at one time or another. Deal with it.
I don't have to. They do.

Volcana
Feb 19th, 2004, 12:06 AM
WHEN: RG 03 final

WHY: CAUSE SHE IS A CHEETAH and alot of dedicated sports fans just don't like CHEETAH'S!
Dawn - think of the WORST SINGLE THING you ever did.

How would you like the totality of your life and worth to be judged on that?

DelMonte
Feb 19th, 2004, 12:06 AM
Venus lost 4-6 0-6 to Hingis, if I recall correctly. :)

Actually, it's not what happened AT the USOpen. It's what happened afterward. I wasn't kidding about posts advocating rape and murder. I forget if it was aol or cnnsi but they actually CLOSED their tennis baords altogether, the post were so nasty.

The long list if 'Venus will nevers ....' were actually okay with me.

'Venus will never win a tournament'
'Venus will never win big a tournament'
'Venus will never win a Tier I tournament'
'Venus will never win a GS tournament'
'Venus will never be #1 tournament'

But the 'Venus is ugly' , 'Venus looks like a Gorilla', 'Venus has muscles like a man' stuff got old fast. The 'there's no racism in tennis stuff' just left you laughing. But the 'I hoped she gets raped' 'I hope she breaks her leg' stuff just summoned up visions of Monica. There was just so much raw HATE. And not what people CALL hate on the boards now, most of which is just good old fashion sports rivalries. But honest to God wishing Venus injured or dead. There's a reason Venus has had a bodyguard since then.

But on top of ALL of that, there was thread after thread, post after post saying there was NOTHING racial in any of it. I suppose Indian Wells 2001 was the tipping point. When the crowd booed Serena coming out for the final, even the announcers were shocked. But here on the board, there was the same old crowd saying 'there's nothing racial in it'.

After that, it was pretty much open warfare.

good grief re all the nasty posts about venus after the 97 final. i had no idea. thanks for explaining.

DelMonte

JasonUK
Feb 19th, 2004, 12:08 AM
"You may not have said it like that, but you gave me the impression you were"
Gave you the impression I was what? :confused:

"And if players win like that - big deal! They still win which is a good thing incase you haven't noticed"
What are you 8 years old? Live a little longer, then you'll understand why it's a big deal.

Gave the impression you were saying it like that, if you read back through the posts - great memory, BTW!

8 years old?? Oooh, that's a good one - make anymore sad little jokes about age and I'll keep up on the floor laughing

flyingmachine
Feb 19th, 2004, 12:09 AM
Thank you for your comment, but if you think it's so stupid, why post here? Secondly, how dare you criticize something for which you have neither the guts or the intelligence to do.

You seems to me that you are only thinking black and white. All I'm only saying that on one is Angel. This includes you and me.
So what sort of thing I criticize that you think that I have neither the guts or the intelligence to do so?
Because I would like to know.

faste5683
Feb 19th, 2004, 12:10 AM
Justine comes off as being cold and aloof for some reason... it's like Martha Stewart minus the evil :)

"What you perceive is what you receive."

:angel:

DeDe4925
Feb 19th, 2004, 12:11 AM
Gave the impression you were saying it like that, if you read back through the posts - great memory, BTW!

8 years old?? Oooh, that's a good one - make anymore sad little jokes about age and I'll keep up on the floor laughing
Well, maybe if you'd complete a sentence I wouldn't have to rely on my memory ;) - great grammar, BTW!

Regarding the sad little age jokes, I'll be happy to as long as you continue to supply me with ammunition. :wavey:

DA FOREHAND
Feb 19th, 2004, 12:12 AM
well buddy... what I think is the case is that she was constantly winning. She made the ambitious statement at the beginning of last year that she wanted to go undefeated and that instantly made me want her to lose. Also her father is a little bit on the nutty side which is not going to endear her to fans. I feel that far too often people jump to the conclusion that it is racism anytime anything bad happens to these girls.


That's plain ole B.S.

Mary Pierce's father was/is a nutcase....did she lose fans because of him?
Cappy's father didn't become a saint until after Jenn won her first slam, did Jenn lose fans because of him?
Kim's dad?
Peter Graf? Damir Dockic? Did you ever lose friends because your dad is an asshole?

People use that dad excuse to keep from pointing out what they really don't like about Serena, instead of having the balls to say what they really feel.

servenrichie
Feb 19th, 2004, 12:15 AM
i have the nerve only because you ARE an idiot. that's my sole reasoning.

i'm not getting into this...i was just letting the Canuck girl know that i don't condone your behaviour, and neither do i see you as a Williams fan. i see you as vermin. i'm sorry, but the only reason i was an "ass" when i joined is because the hate is being rallied by both sides, and i thought all williams fans were perfect like me (ok, so ignore that last part)

if i do not find it acceptable for people to be plain rude towards the sisters, it would make me somewhat of a hypocrite (which i am, but not in this case) to accept your rudeness to all other players who don't have the surname "Williams"....so instead of arguing with you (which i'm cursing myself for doing at this present moment in time), i prefer to ignore you (which may make me a coward, but a happy coward :))

SJWTake your grudges and stick it wherever. If I would reply to half of what has being thrown to my favourites, then I'd be really over the top. Why is it that the Williamses and to some extents their fans always have to take the highroad. Who said it must be that way? Wimps like you who, prefer getting into good books of everybody, than calling a spade a spade. I am suppose to conform to that, so as to make YOU and the likes of BECCA like me? No thanks, now fuck off and dream of more posts to endear yourself to everyone. " the sweet SWJ":rolleyes:

And please put me on ignore!:devil:

DeDe4925
Feb 19th, 2004, 12:15 AM
You seems to me that you are only thinking black and white. All I'm only saying that on one is Angel. This includes you and me.
So what sort of thing I criticize that you think that I have neither the guts or the intelligence to do so?
Because I would like to know.
Black and white as in race or depth of thought? I never said anyone was an angel. I'm not criticizing anyone. I'm not criticizing Justine. I'm not judging her. I asked a question.

You criticized my thread. I don't know whether you've started a thread or not. That was a knee jerk response and if it doesn't apply, than I apologize.

Dawn Marie
Feb 19th, 2004, 12:18 AM
Volcana, I only answered the topics question I have nothing to do personally with this thread topic. If or when I become famous I will answer your question.:)


JasonUK, Cheetah and cheater what is the difference here as everyone knows what it means in this thread.

JasonUK
Feb 19th, 2004, 12:20 AM
Well, maybe if you'd complete a sentence I wouldn't have to rely on my memory ;) - great grammar, BTW!

Regarding the sad little age jokes, I'll be happy to as long as you continue to supply me with ammunition. :wavey:

Shame - if I'd realised that I was going to be talking to an ignorant little clever git with a rather...simple sense of humour, I wouldn't have bothered.
But it's quite funny watching you bust your balls trying to amuse yourself! Please do carry on!

JasonUK
Feb 19th, 2004, 12:22 AM
JasonUK, Cheetah and cheater what is the difference here as everyone knows what it means in this thread.

Yeah, sorry about that - I just hadn't posted anything for a while :sad:

Jakeev
Feb 19th, 2004, 12:38 AM
WHEN: RG 03 final

WHY: CAUSE SHE IS A CHEETAH and alot of dedicated sports fans just don't like CHEETAH'S!

Oh geez did you come with that all by yourself?:lol: :lol: Hey did you read the slams between SJW and Sevenrichie? Makes are spats look like a relaxing cup of tea in May somewhere in the English countryside.............

fammmmedspin
Feb 19th, 2004, 12:40 AM
Where pray is Justine despised? She looks a perfectly fitted number 1 - she plays a full tour commitment, she wins tournaments, she beats the best players out there. Her technique wins high praise and her game flows without constant errors. She seems to be liked by the fans who actually watch her from Australia to New York. If Kim starts to take GS wins she will make a great number 1 too - with a bigger smile too.

The only dissent I can see comes from a few US fans who put a few tons of historical. political and psychological baggage onto Serena. There are understandable reasons for this and they are strengthened by the fact that Serena now looks like the only dominant number 1 who might be displaced quickly (Navratilova, Graf, Evert had long runs, ASV Davenport and Capriati were never that dominant for long, Monica was a very special case, Hingis declined (partly through injury) before she lost number 1) Faced with this, its quite normal for some people to invent reasons why the person who replaced their idol is there by underhand means (watch JFK and imagine what Stone would have made of the hand incident if he ws a Serena fan) Its also quite normal for tennis to throw up suitable incidents - balls get called outwhen in (FO99, AO 04) players who were never exposed to tennis etiquette growing up don't look to see what their opponent is doing before serving, players call lines (Kim and Justine AO 04) Its all pointless noise. If Serena fans are right about her ability she will get her position back. If she doesn't make it US fans will have to quickly find someone else or learn to love watching Europeans again.

*JR*
Feb 19th, 2004, 12:44 AM
A grudge according to you translates to idiocy and you have the nerve to call someone an idiot?
I am watching to bitch-slap you when you make such commentaries that attracted my criticisms in the first place. You were such an ass when you joined the board. From what I see you actually learnt, so all is not lost...
This personal attack S-U-C-K-S big time. JustineTime, VCR, and I know this girl a lot better than you. None of us are "Williams diehards" (though we all respect them) so our high regard for Sarah is NOT being part of the same "fan base". It's who she is HERSELF; which you could learn something from! :rolleyes:

flyingmachine
Feb 19th, 2004, 12:49 AM
Where pray is Justine despised? She looks a perfectly fitted number 1 - she plays a full tour commitment, she wins tournaments, she beats the best players out there. Her technique wins high praise and her game flows without constant errors. She seems to be liked by the fans who actually watch her from Australia to New York. If Kim starts to take GS wins she will make a great number 1 too - with a bigger smile too.

The only dissent I can see comes from a few US fans who put a few tons of historical. political and psychological baggage onto Serena. There are understandable reasons for this and they are strengthened by the fact that Serena now looks like the only dominant number 1 who might be displaced quickly (Navratilova, Graf, Evert had long runs, ASV Davenport and Capriati were never that dominant for long, Monica was a very special case, Hingis declined (partly through injury) before she lost number 1) Faced with this, its quite normal for some people to invent reasons why the person who replaced their idol is there by underhand means (watch JFK and imagine what Stone would have made of the hand incident if he ws a Serena fan) Its also quite normal for tennis to throw up suitable incidents - balls get called outwhen in (FO99, AO 04) players who were never exposed to tennis etiquette growing up don't look to see what their opponent is doing before serving, players call lines (Kim and Justine AO 04) Its all pointless noise. If Serena fans are right about her ability she will get her position back. If she doesn't make it US fans will have to quickly find someone else or learn to love watching Europeans again.
You are right. Thank you for your wisdom. :)

Greenout
Feb 19th, 2004, 12:59 AM
Interesting. Very interesting.

I never felt the spite.

Was fascinated when I heard that some 16 yr old. almost blew away my
then favorite player Lindsay at RG 1999 in an early rd. I remember
the commentators saying that she had match points. Seen a very
short clip of it, and LD looked worried as hell.

Sort of looked out for J2H in the draw. My love didn't start until
US Open 2000 when she then dumped Anna Kournikova out of the
grand slam. Ok- I disliked Kournikova and it made my day. Loved the
outcome. It was a great laugh.

I moved to Singapore in 2001 and saw alot of J2H's match. Including the
Fed Cup rounds throughout the year. Since then I've been watching and
reading the weird transformation of Justine the 1-handed backhand genius
to the new Osama Bin Laden of the WTA from my safe spot overseas.

Seems the spite comes mainly from American tennis fans. Obviously because
her biggest victories came over LD, Jen and Serena. The Kim factions jumped
on the bandwagon with all of her loses to J2H in grand slams.

Jakeev
Feb 19th, 2004, 01:01 AM
Where pray is Justine despised? She looks a perfectly fitted number 1 - she plays a full tour commitment, she wins tournaments, she beats the best players out there. Her technique wins high praise and her game flows without constant errors. She seems to be liked by the fans who actually watch her from Australia to New York. If Kim starts to take GS wins she will make a great number 1 too - with a bigger smile too.

The only dissent I can see comes from a few US fans who put a few tons of historical. political and psychological baggage onto Serena. There are understandable reasons for this and they are strengthened by the fact that Serena now looks like the only dominant number 1 who might be displaced quickly (Navratilova, Graf, Evert had long runs, ASV Davenport and Capriati were never that dominant for long, Monica was a very special case, Hingis declined (partly through injury) before she lost number 1) Faced with this, its quite normal for some people to invent reasons why the person who replaced their idol is there by underhand means (watch JFK and imagine what Stone would have made of the hand incident if he ws a Serena fan) Its also quite normal for tennis to throw up suitable incidents - balls get called outwhen in (FO99, AO 04) players who were never exposed to tennis etiquette growing up don't look to see what their opponent is doing before serving, players call lines (Kim and Justine AO 04) Its all pointless noise. If Serena fans are right about her ability she will get her position back. If she doesn't make it US fans will have to quickly find someone else or learn to love watching Europeans again.
Bravo....probably the most intelligent post I have seen in this rather contrived thread..........

LiliaLee-Frazier
Feb 19th, 2004, 01:06 AM
It all started when she started to win slams, became no 1 and beat everyone in sight.... SOME people have to find something..ANYTHING to tear someone apart with...i am not a huge fan of hers..but..there is no denying she is the BEST PLAYER BY FAR on tour in the year 2004.
People can use the injury excuse as much as they want to...whwich just does not work with me...Justines fitness is at a premium now and THAT is why she is 100% healthy and no 1....its ALL part of the game and she is winning THE GAME on all counts ... Just the facts :wavey:

Joana
Feb 19th, 2004, 01:16 AM
Players have crossed the net to show the mark. Players have been late for match and didn't apologize. Players have simply left the match. Players have missed Grand Slams only days before the beginning without giving a proper explanation. Players have pulled out of mixed doubles without telling it to their partner. Players have accused other players of things they didn't do. Players have kicked bags of other players in the locker room. etc. etc. etc.

Now, let's hate them all!

flyingmachine
Feb 19th, 2004, 01:24 AM
Interesting. Very interesting.


I moved to Singapore in 2001 and saw alot of J2H's match. Including the
Fed Cup rounds through out the year. Since then I've been watching and
reading the weird transformation of Justine the 1-handed backhand genius
to the new Osama Bin Laden of the WTA from my safe spot overseas.



:lol:

JasonUK
Feb 19th, 2004, 01:26 AM
Players have crossed the net to show the mark. Players have been late for match and didn't apologize. Players have simply left the match. Players have missed Grand Slams only days before the beginning without giving a proper explanation. Players have pulled out of mixed doubles without telling it to their partner. Players have accused other players of things they didn't do. Players have kicked bags of other players in the locker room. etc. etc. etc.

Now, let's hate them all!

:lol: :worship: :worship: :worship:

~ The Leopard ~
Feb 19th, 2004, 01:30 AM
However, none of these No. 1 Champions seem to have been as despised, in my opinion, as Justine.

What is it about Justine?You're entitled to have that opinion. Given that you have it, you're entitled to ask the question.

However, in my reality none of these players have been "depised". Vocal minorities may have disliked all of them, but the vast majority of tennis fans, whether casual or dedicated, have admired them.

Perhaps the question is, "Why is there a larger and more vocal minority of tennis fans who dislike Justine than was the case with Martina 1, Martina 2, Steffi, Monica, Venus, Serena, etc, etc?"

Even there, however, I'm not sure that the premise is true. All of those players copped crap from various quarters.

What may be true, though, is that Justine (even more than Lindsay Davenport) is very much the "plain wrap" version of a top tennis player, and this has restricted the extent to which she has attracted love from the mass of fans, at least outside the French-speaking world.

She is at best a tomboyishly pretty, and certainly not glamorous, woman in her early twenties, whereas Martina 2 is beautiful (and an argument can be put that Serena is also beautiful...at least many people see her that way). She is no Chrissy or Anna K (imagine the adulation that Anna K would have received if her career had continued to improve and she'd eventually won slams and become #1).

She comes from a small country; does not have a flamboyant personality; does not take part in fashion shows or wear sexy clothing; is speaking English more and more competently to the media, but has nothing like the charm and self-confidence in interviews that her fellow French speaker Amelie possesses...or someone like Marat Safin. In interviews, she often seems a bit defensive, and concentrates on giving a sort of basic, "safe" answer. She doesn't seem to open up like Amelie does. By contrast, even when Amelie was in tears after she pulled out of the AO, she was saying in a very unselfconscious manner things like: "I thought I'd just have a little hit and... blah, blah". Amelie seems very at home speaking English in a way that Justine still does not.

I suppose those are all reasons why people may - especially outside of the French-speaking world - have not warmed to her that much. Indeed, I can see why some people might resent her and wish that some of the more glamorous or flamboyant players could knock her off her perch. The comments about "she has no glamour" which Becca cited show that at least some people think that way.

OTOH, she plays damn good and aesthetically-pleasing tennis, and I actually like her no-frills presentation. Maybe if she hangs around a bit more with Amelie some of that charm when speaking English will rub off. Otherwise, I wouldn't change a thing about her.

Greenout
Feb 19th, 2004, 01:32 AM
Personally, I don't see the resemblance between the Justinatrix
and Osama? Where's the beard? ;)












Pic (copyright henin-hardenne. be)

Dede42
Feb 19th, 2004, 01:41 AM
Shame - if I'd realised that I was going to be talking to an ignorant little clever git with a rather...simple sense of humour, I wouldn't have bothered.
But it's quite funny watching you bust your balls trying to amuse yourself! Please do carry on!
LOL, it's funny how some people open their mouths to write checks their asses can't cash and then resort to personal attacks. You're the one who criticized my memory first. If you can't take the heat...well, I'm sure you're familiar with the rest.

BTW, I'm a woman, so I have no balls to bust. Secondly, I think it's your balls that got busted. Thirdly, what is a "git"??

JasonUK
Feb 19th, 2004, 01:45 AM
LOL, it's funny how some people open their mouths to write checks their asses can't cash and then resort to personal attacks. You're the one who criticized my memory first. If you can't take the heat...well, I'm sure you're familiar with the rest.

BTW, I'm a woman, so I have no balls to bust. Secondly, I think it's your balls that got busted. Thirdly, what is a "git"??

Wonder how many reputation points I'll have lost by the end of this? (assuming it ends)

tennnisfannn
Feb 19th, 2004, 01:49 AM
Justine became despised when she began to make her mark on the tour. By despise we are simply comparing the feelings most people would have towards a Chanda, Ai, Maria,Myskina and every other solid player who isn't threatening a slam anytime soon.

Does that mean that the whole tennis world despises Justine, no but a few people in key positions and even other players begin to make underhanded remarks bout her, enough to influence many fans.
Take McEnroe for instance, he is totally in love with justine's backhand and sings it's praises everytime he can. Yet in the same breathe he says " all we need now is for Justine to put up her hand', he went on to say "justine has been known to take an injury time out if she needs time to regroup". He said this in the midst of the seesawing AO final.The first comment he probably intended as a joke, but surely a man who has been in the media so long must know people do get misunderstood and you cannot make negative remarks about a player unless you intend to be malicious. Now just about every review you read about Justine's success has the hand and the injury timeouts included. Result there is a lot of non die hard sports fans who think Justine is a cheat, not to mention questioning whether her 'hard work' has been illegally aided. kim's comments didn't help matter, there is a whole world out there who think she is an angel and everyword out of her mouth must be true.
jen says "justine is doing great for all the things she says are bothering her' Martina N one moment says Justine has caught up with the sisters, but after justine wins AO, Serena lost no.1 ranking due to injury, in other words making justine a defacto no.1 Tis comments like this that the media feed on and in turn feed them to the world. Total misrepresentation.
Reality is no no.1 is ever gonna be cherished by all not even Kim. Remember her reign constantly belittled by quantity over quality remarks, doesn't have a brain to win the big one, all this for a player who is supposed to be the most popular.
Conclusion: human beings can be nasty and very jealous. As soon as a player succeeds there is this desire to bring them down, demean their accomplishments. Justine fans, grin and bare it, as long as Justine is winning expect more of the same.
People will find something to despise players over, looks, weight, family, race anything they can lay their hands on and when all fails the very self righteous yet ignorant and laughable remarks like a player has no talent and this from people who have never swung a racket.:fiery:

Dede42
Feb 19th, 2004, 01:50 AM
Interesting. Very interesting.

I never felt the spite.

Was fascinated when I heard that some 16 yr old. almost blew away my
then favorite player Lindsay at RG 1999 in an early rd. I remember
the commentators saying that she had match points. Seen a very
short clip of it, and LD looked worried as hell.

Sort of looked out for J2H in the draw. My love didn't start until
US Open 2000 when she then dumped Anna Kournikova out of the
grand slam. Ok- I disliked Kournikova and it made my day. Loved the
outcome. It was a great laugh.

I moved to Singapore in 2001 and saw alot of J2H's match. Including the
Fed Cup rounds throughout the year. Since then I've been watching and
reading the weird transformation of Justine the 1-handed backhand genius
to the new Osama Bin Laden of the WTA from my safe spot overseas.

Seems the spite comes mainly from American tennis fans. Obviously because
her biggest victories came over LD, Jen and Serena. The Kim factions jumped
on the bandwagon with all of her loses to J2H in grand slams.

I may not totally agree with what you have to say here, but I sincerely appreciate your honest and unbiased comments and answer to a very simple and non-judgmental question. At least you recognize the obvious.

Crazy Canuck
Feb 19th, 2004, 01:52 AM
Rebecca is calling someone an idiot? Coming from you, that's a compliment, you fucking moron:devil:
Oh, gee. I'm rubber, you're glue... what else is new?

Crazy Canuck
Feb 19th, 2004, 01:53 AM
Bug off Rebecca, not interested in any conversation with you. You know why, you have no opinions- always going wherever the wind is blowing:tape:
It's true. I'm not even remotely opinionated. Such a keen observer, you are!

Hendouble
Feb 19th, 2004, 01:56 AM
LOL, it's funny how some people open their mouths to write checks their asses can't cash and then resort to personal attacks. You're the one who criticized my memory first. If you can't take the heat...well, I'm sure you're familiar with the rest.

BTW, I'm a woman, so I have no balls to bust. Secondly, I think it's your balls that got busted. Thirdly, what is a "git"??
Fine old English expression, I don't suppose it survived the journey on the Mayflower.

For me, the only worrying moment came in ACE magazine's long interview with Henin when they printed some rather frightening photos of her trying to be fashionable with cap, big earrings and horribly garish red lipstick. Not a good thing to attempt, IMO, but she still hits some decent topspin-based ball, so who cares?

Hulet
Feb 19th, 2004, 01:56 AM
Crazy Canuck, so you are rebecca? :)

TennisHack
Feb 19th, 2004, 02:05 AM
Title: When and Why Did Justine Become So Despised?

When: when she suddenly became a true threat to the top. How few people remember 2002 and before, when she was saddled with the "choker" label. I don't suppose many took her all that seriously; she decided to do something about it and suddenly she became a threat, and a threat to Serena, more to the point. I think the tide started turning when she won in Charleston, and it exploded at Roland Garros last year.


Why: Because Justine is not exactly Kim Clijsters in the publicity department, and because she has used questionable tactics in matches, at least often enough to warrant a pattern. The RG incident certainly didn't help matters. Justine does not seem interested in appearing as a nice, friendly person; her goals are winning anything and everything.

Some people find that appealing; others do not. I do not like Justine as a person, she has done things I consider harsh, selfish, and opportunistic. But, there is absolutely no doubt why she's on top, so all credit to her.

Of course, we can't forget that other little factor, namely, that every #1 has had to take shit from some fan base or another. This is nothing new.

Crazy Canuck
Feb 19th, 2004, 02:13 AM
what? what did i do?! :p

i'm just messing around with for-sure...we're um...old friends ;)

yes servenrichie is a complete fucking idiot, but what do you want me to do? i've been ignoring him/her/it for the past year now, i'm not about to stop ;)
I didn't realize than you and for sure or whatever were old buddies ;) My bad. I thought you were taking him seriously... or her ;)

Crazy Canuck
Feb 19th, 2004, 02:14 AM
Crazy Canuck, so you are rebecca? :)
The one and only!

- L i n a -
Feb 19th, 2004, 02:15 AM
These threads are always enjoyable.

Don't stop. Give it. Give it.

tennisIlove09
Feb 19th, 2004, 02:21 AM
To say people dislike Justine because she was a threat to Venus and Serena is laughable at that.

I am a Venus fan, and I like Serena (not nearly as much as I like Venus)...and during the 2002 FO-2003 AO, I was hoping there'd be another player to step it up. No one did. No one.

Justine "stepped" it up in Paris...how? Well, we all know how. To me, if you can't beat the best without playing fair then you aren't the best. I guess Justine...and Kim..."rise" to #1 is from cheating, and for Kim from Serena's injury.

Dede42
Feb 19th, 2004, 02:26 AM
Where pray is Justine despised? She looks a perfectly fitted number 1 - she plays a full tour commitment, she wins tournaments, she beats the best players out there. Her technique wins high praise and her game flows without constant errors. She seems to be liked by the fans who actually watch her from Australia to New York. If Kim starts to take GS wins she will make a great number 1 too - with a bigger smile too.

The only dissent I can see comes from a few US fans who put a few tons of historical. political and psychological baggage onto Serena. There are understandable reasons for this and they are strengthened by the fact that Serena now looks like the only dominant number 1 who might be displaced quickly (Navratilova, Graf, Evert had long runs, ASV Davenport and Capriati were never that dominant for long, Monica was a very special case, Hingis declined (partly through injury) before she lost number 1) Faced with this, its quite normal for some people to invent reasons why the person who replaced their idol is there by underhand means (watch JFK and imagine what Stone would have made of the hand incident if he ws a Serena fan) Its also quite normal for tennis to throw up suitable incidents - balls get called outwhen in (FO99, AO 04) players who were never exposed to tennis etiquette growing up don't look to see what their opponent is doing before serving, players call lines (Kim and Justine AO 04) Its all pointless noise. If Serena fans are right about her ability she will get her position back. If she doesn't make it US fans will have to quickly find someone else or learn to love watching Europeans again.
Where is she despised? Well, I won't deign to answer that question because I can't give you geographical positions of those who have written letters to Jon's Mailbag on SI.com and several other message boards, besides this one. I have not taken a poll and I'm just asking a question based on my observations. Contrary to popular Justin-fan opinion, this thread is not contrived to elicit negative commentary, but to answer a question that's been on my mind since the AO 2004. I could very well pose and have on other message boards posed the same question regarding Venus and Serena. However, I tend to get the same rhetorical responses with invalid reasoning from people who are either blind to their own prejudices or don't have enough balls to say what the real reason is.

Regarding Serena being displaced quickly, I don't think 50 weeks at No. 1 is being displaced quickly. The last time I saw Justine play Serena, Serena beat her like a step-child at Wimby.

Regarding your accusation of people inventing reasons to dislike Justine, it's not hard when she obviously gives people the ammunition to have reasons to dislike her that have nothing to do with her ability to play tennis or her recent winning streak since the Sisters have been off the tour due to injuries.

"players who were never exposed to tennis etiquette growing up don't look to see what their opponent is doing before serving" I take it that this remark is intended for Serena. Not only is it factually incorrect, it's silly. Serena has been playing tennis since she was 4 years old. She entered her first tournament when she was around 6 years old. The Sisters did play on the Junior circuit for a while, until Richard saw how detrimental it could possibly be to their psyche and how it would take away from their childhood. Also, by the time Serena played Justine at RG 03, she had won five Grand Slams, and no other incident regarding tennis etiquette had ever been a factor in any of those events. So to say that she had never been exposed to tennis etiquette growing up, not to look up to see what her opponent is doing before serving is at best biased propaganda and at worst an outright lie. I think tennis etiquette would more aptly apply to the receiver to make sure she holds her hand up to stop serve before the ball is in the air. At the very least to admit to the umpire that she did ask for a halt in serve to give her opponent her first serve.

Also, I see you tend to stereotype Serena fans as US fans and vice versa. This is also a misappropriation of truth. There are quite a few Justine fans here in the US. All you need do is look to this board. By the same token, there are quite a few US fans who are not Serena fans, if you haven't noticed. I reiterate, this onslaught of despise in my opinion, seems to have stemmed from AO 2004 when Justine beat Kim. The Sisters have never enjoyed widespread fan appreciation within the US for obvious reasons. I think they have some core die-hard US fans, but they also have European fans. So, my question obviously has nothing to do with Serena fans or US fans and their ability or inability to find a European idol because the Williams' sisters have been off the tour.

- L i n a -
Feb 19th, 2004, 02:26 AM
Everyone in the US loves Andy Roddick.

The TV tells me so.

harloo
Feb 19th, 2004, 02:27 AM
You know what, after reading all of these responses people fail to realize that EVERY #1 is criticized. I lost all respect for Henin after the FO incident. I can understand that she may of been nervous, but IMO what was even more disturbing is that she did not admit any wrong doing in the incident.

Henin is mainly despised because of her character, and anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional. She does what it takes to win and that's great, but as I always have said her ethics are questionable. Now people should learn to live with that and stop bringing this why is Henin despised?

Dawn Marie
Feb 19th, 2004, 02:27 AM
Being a V@S fan myself I don't at this time see Justine as a threat.:)

Dede42
Feb 19th, 2004, 02:36 AM
Wonder how many reputation points I'll have lost by the end of this? (assuming it ends)
I haven't given you any bad reps. But, if that's the way you handle your frustration, more power to you. :)

~ The Leopard ~
Feb 19th, 2004, 03:05 AM
Are Dede42 and DeMond the same person? :confused:

Tplayer
Feb 19th, 2004, 03:08 AM
The only players that are really despised on the tour are the Williams sisters. It’s common knowledge. Not only by the players but by the commentators and most tennis fans too.

They are booed almost everywhere they play and hated in France. Without a doubt Justine is the sweetheart of tennis. Everyone loves to watch her play and is always the crowd favorite.

OUT!
Feb 19th, 2004, 03:14 AM
The only players that are really despised on the tour are the Williams sisters. It’s common knowledge. Not only by the players but by the commentators and most tennis fans too.

They are booed almost everywhere they play and hated in France. Without a doubt Justine is the sweetheart of tennis. Everyone loves to watch her play and is always the crowd favorite.
Speak for yourself. I think women's tennis has experienced a downside since the Williams departure after Wimby 2003. Jusitne is a great player, but as many others have stated, she has a big monkey that she needs to shake off her back.

JustineTime
Feb 19th, 2004, 04:05 AM
The only players that are really despised on the tour are the Williams sisters. It’s common knowledge. Not only by the players but by the commentators and most tennis fans too.

They are booed almost everywhere they play and hated in France. Without a doubt Justine is the sweetheart of tennis. Everyone loves to watch her play and is always the crowd favorite.
And......out of the Phoenix comes the hellfire!

:devil: TPlayer :devil:

Now where did I put that other iKKKon? :scratch: The one with the hood...? :rolleyes:

Greenout
Feb 19th, 2004, 04:24 AM
And......out of the Phoenix comes the hellfire!

:devil: TPlayer :devil:

Now where did I put that other iKKKon? :scratch: The one with the hood...? :rolleyes:


I still don't get the spite. They do not look like each other
at all. :p I hope we don't start seeing people try mental gymnastics
and start saying that the Justinatrix is up to no good.

She won the DUBAI Duty Free TIER 2 tournament fair and square. :worship: Yallah! Yallah!

(JHH pic copyright: henin-hardenne.be)

- L i n a -
Feb 19th, 2004, 04:28 AM
Speak for yourself. I think women's tennis has experienced a downside since the Williams departure after Wimby 2003. Jusitne is a great player, but as many others have stated, she has a big monkey that she needs to shake off her back.
Is that a racist comment, or not?

OUT!
Feb 19th, 2004, 04:39 AM
Is that a racist comment, or not?No the final sentence is a metaphor :rolleyes:

Sam L
Feb 19th, 2004, 04:43 AM
When and Why Did Justine Become So Despised?

When she became and successful, and why? because they're jealous.

:haha:

- L i n a -
Feb 19th, 2004, 04:43 AM
Why do people hate Alex Stevenson then?

alexusjonesfan
Feb 19th, 2004, 04:44 AM
I still don't get the spite. They do not look like each other
at all. :p I hope we don't start seeing people try mental gymnastics
and start saying that the Justinatrix is up to no good.

She won the DUBAI Duty Free TIER 2 tournament fair and square. :worship: Yallah! Yallah!

(JHH pic copyright: henin-hardenne.be)
You're looking for the wrong kind of evil connection altogether :tape:

You can't just buy pants that red at the GAP you know, she's got connections to the main man himself :devil:

bw2082
Feb 19th, 2004, 04:44 AM
Why do people hate Alex Stevenson then?

because she and her mother talk the talk but can't walk the walk.

Sam L
Feb 19th, 2004, 04:45 AM
I lost all respect for Henin after the FO incident.
Oh please! I'm sure she doesn't give shit.

Sam L
Feb 19th, 2004, 04:46 AM
Why do people hate Alex Stevenson then?
Let's not even go there. :tape:

caseyl45
Feb 19th, 2004, 05:04 AM
When and why did JHH become so despised?

First of all, let me say that I agree that all top players (not necessarily number ones) are "despised" for some reason of another. Some of the reasons are okay, and some may be considered silly by others. That's just the way it is.

As far as Henin-Hardenne is concerned, the first real sign of dislike I saw came in Zurich 2002, when she accused Davenport of faking a thigh injury (I think it was her thigh). That was the first time I can remember tennis fans really dividing into "I love her" and "I hate her" factions. For some fans, their next meeting (Aus. Open 2003), where Henin-Hardenne needed an injury time-out because of cramps, made things worse.

The next thing that came up was "The Hand Incident," which I think everybody knows about, and everyone has their own opinion on. Some people think she was cheating, some people believe she committed a "breach of etiquette," and others don't think she did anything wrong. Whatever people think, she lost a lot of goodwill because of that incident and how she and the people around her handled it.

In August came the match with Clijsters at San Diego, where she called an injury time-out to treat blisters on her foot. After the match, Clijsters was very upset about her calling the time-out. Based on everything I've heard about that incident, Henin-Hardenne was genuinely surprised by Clijsters accusations. I think that incident was the springboard for the ongoing differences between the two of them.

During the rest of the hardcourt season last summer, a couple of different things happened. First of all, at least in American television coverage, Henin-Hardenne was heavily criticized and ridiculed by TV commentators, people that have a lot of say in how players are perceived. Then, at the U.S. Open, in her semifinal match against Capriati, she had problems with cramping. Some of the Capriati fans lashed out against her for that, and then, when she beat Clijsters, some of her fans accused Henin-Hardenne of distracting Clijsters because of the rumors that she may not be able to play in the finals.

Of course, following the U.S. Open, there was the whole steroid controversy, and then there were the comments from Capriati at the WTA Championships, and the overrule at the Australian Open during the finals. When you add all of that together, it's easy to see why some fans would think she's a cheater or a poor sport. One thing becomes another, and before you know it, there's a pattern of "questionable behavior," some of it real, some of it imagined.

That being said, of all the controversies she's been involved in, there are only two things I can honestly say I was disappointed in her for -- the incident at Zurich and the one at Roland Garros. As far as Zurich is concerned, she's already admitted that she regrets what happened there, and Davenport seems to have moved past it as well. I remember her admitting before the '03 Aus Open match that she thought JHH put a lot of pressure on herself. As far as Roland Garros is concerned, I'm still disappointed in the way it was handled publicly, but I'm not going to hate someone just because I disagree with how they handle something.

I also think there's some truth to the "People don't like her because she doesn't seem like a warm, friendly person" theory. I think that even the most fervent fans of hers would admit that her English interviews can be quite predictable in terms of the answers she gives. That being said, she's gotten a lot better in the past few months. I don't think she's like that in reality, though. Of the translated French interviews of hers that I've read, she's thoughtful, friendly, and even humorous. There really is a striking difference between the English-speaking Henin-Hardenne and the French-speaking one.

I think that the saddest thing about these controversies surrounding Henin-Hardenne is that off the court, she seems like a fairly involved top player. I've lost count of how many pictures I've seen of her signing autographs or conducting children's clinics. Don't get me wrong, she's no Clijsters, but Henin-Hardenne certainly is no slouch in that department herself.

Greenout
Feb 19th, 2004, 05:05 AM
You're looking for the wrong kind of evil connection altogether :tape:

You can't just buy pants that red at the GAP you know, she's got connections to the main man himself :devil:


Maybe you have got a point here. Just take away the horns and
stick an Adidas baseball cap on the Lord from Below and ..... :tape:

Dede42
Feb 19th, 2004, 05:22 AM
Are Dede42 and DeMond the same person? :confused:
Yes. WTAworld will not allow me to log on at home with my DeMond ID. I've never tried to perpetrate the two ID's were not the same person.

alexusjonesfan
Feb 19th, 2004, 05:32 AM
Maybe you have got a point here. Just take away the horns and
stick an Adidas baseball cap on the Lord from Below and ..... :tape:
why take the horns off at all?...:tape:
http://www.wtaworld.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6765

nice pic btw, who is that, you at your last hallowe'en party? ;)

Rtael
Feb 19th, 2004, 05:49 AM
:shrug:

Greenout
Feb 19th, 2004, 05:51 AM
When and why did JHH become so despised?

First of all, let me say that I agree that all top players (not necessarily number ones) are "despised" for some reason of another. Some of the reasons are okay, and some may be considered silly by others. That's just the way it is.

As far as Henin-Hardenne is concerned, the first real sign of dislike I saw came in Zurich 2002, when she accused Davenport of faking a thigh injury (I think it was her thigh). That was the first time I can remember tennis fans really dividing into "I love her" and "I hate her" factions. For some fans, their next meeting (Aus. Open 2003), where Henin-Hardenne needed an injury time-out because of cramps, made things worse.

The next thing that came up was "The Hand Incident," which I think everybody knows about, and everyone has their own opinion on. Some people think she was cheating, some people believe she committed a "breach of etiquette," and others don't think she did anything wrong. Whatever people think, she lost a lot of goodwill because of that incident and how she and the people around her handled it.

In August came the match with Clijsters at San Diego, where she called an injury time-out to treat blisters on her foot. After the match, Clijsters was very upset about her calling the time-out. Based on everything I've heard about that incident, Henin-Hardenne was genuinely surprised by Clijsters accusations. I think that incident was the springboard for the ongoing differences between the two of them.

During the rest of the hardcourt season last summer, a couple of different things happened. First of all, at least in American television coverage, Henin-Hardenne was heavily criticized and ridiculed by TV commentators, people that have a lot of say in how players are perceived. Then, at the U.S. Open, in her semifinal match against Capriati, she had problems with cramping. Some of the Capriati fans lashed out against her for that, and then, when she beat Clijsters, some of her fans accused Henin-Hardenne of distracting Clijsters because of the rumors that she may not be able to play in the finals.

Of course, following the U.S. Open, there was the whole steroid controversy, and then there were the comments from Capriati at the WTA Championships, and the overrule at the Australian Open during the finals. When you add all of that together, it's easy to see why some fans would think she's a cheater or a poor sport. One thing becomes another, and before you know it, there's a pattern of "questionable behavior," some of it real, some of it imagined.

That being said, of all the controversies she's been involved in, there are only two things I can honestly say I was disappointed in her for -- the incident at Zurich and the one at Roland Garros. As far as Zurich is concerned, she's already admitted that she regrets what happened there, and Davenport seems to have moved past it as well. I remember her admitting before the '03 Aus Open match that she thought JHH put a lot of pressure on herself. As far as Roland Garros is concerned, I'm still disappointed in the way it was handled publicly, but I'm not going to hate someone just because I disagree with how they handle something.

I also think there's some truth to the "People don't like her because she doesn't seem like a warm, friendly person" theory. I think that even the most fervent fans of hers would admit that her English interviews can be quite predictable in terms of the answers she gives. That being said, she's gotten a lot better in the past few months. I don't think she's like that in reality, though. Of the translated French interviews of hers that I've read, she's thoughtful, friendly, and even humorous. There really is a striking difference between the English-speaking Henin-Hardenne and the French-speaking one.

I think that the saddest thing about these controversies surrounding Henin-Hardenne is that off the court, she seems like a fairly involved top player. I've lost count of how many pictures I've seen of her signing autographs or conducting children's clinics. Don't get me wrong, she's no Clijsters, but Henin-Hardenne certainly is no slouch in that department herself.



I suppose it's all personal perspective. Yes, I find Justine to be awkward
at times off court in interviews;but that to me is just being real. She's
not slick, and rehearsed. The lack of "warmth" issue?.I get the sense that
Justine is a caring and warm person; just not to strangers. She doesn't
play the PR game well; and it's probably due to her personal history
and experience. I don't think she trusts alot of people. I find her
quiet persona, kind of charming and a refreshing change from the
larger than life BRITNEY/BEYONCE/HOLLYWOOD glitter hype from
others. There's an honesty to the Justinator that I can't find in other
players.

The post match interviews? True, they ring cliches; but her English isn't
that great. You can hear her ask someone on the side what a certain
word definition is in French during the interviews! I do like that she doesn't
back off on any comments. Whatever is said ...really is what she
thinks. Nothing is said ever just to make a journalist happy or to
suck up.

The ethics issue? It doesn't bother me. I find it fascinating that she's
a deeply complex character with motives that comes out from who
knows where?

All that aside...the tennis speaks for it's self. It's just the most incredible
thing to behold: full of life, wisdom, style, exuberance, charm, and
dazzle.

At the end of the day Justine is all about tennis. Whatever she can't
express in interviews and everything she truly represents comes out in tennis. I'm surprised nobody has come to this simple conclusion yet. :)

geoepee
Feb 19th, 2004, 05:54 AM
When and why did JHH become so despised?

First of all, let me say that I agree that all top players (not necessarily number ones) are "despised" for some reason of another. Some of the reasons are okay, and some may be considered silly by others. That's just the way it is.

As far as Henin-Hardenne is concerned, the first real sign of dislike I saw came in Zurich 2002, when she accused Davenport of faking a thigh injury (I think it was her thigh). That was the first time I can remember tennis fans really dividing into "I love her" and "I hate her" factions. For some fans, their next meeting (Aus. Open 2003), where Henin-Hardenne needed an injury time-out because of cramps, made things worse.

The next thing that came up was "The Hand Incident," which I think everybody knows about, and everyone has their own opinion on. Some people think she was cheating, some people believe she committed a "breach of etiquette," and others don't think she did anything wrong. Whatever people think, she lost a lot of goodwill because of that incident and how she and the people around her handled it.

In August came the match with Clijsters at San Diego, where she called an injury time-out to treat blisters on her foot. After the match, Clijsters was very upset about her calling the time-out. Based on everything I've heard about that incident, Henin-Hardenne was genuinely surprised by Clijsters accusations. I think that incident was the springboard for the ongoing differences between the two of them.

During the rest of the hardcourt season last summer, a couple of different things happened. First of all, at least in American television coverage, Henin-Hardenne was heavily criticized and ridiculed by TV commentators, people that have a lot of say in how players are perceived. Then, at the U.S. Open, in her semifinal match against Capriati, she had problems with cramping. Some of the Capriati fans lashed out against her for that, and then, when she beat Clijsters, some of her fans accused Henin-Hardenne of distracting Clijsters because of the rumors that she may not be able to play in the finals.

Of course, following the U.S. Open, there was the whole steroid controversy, and then there were the comments from Capriati at the WTA Championships, and the overrule at the Australian Open during the finals. When you add all of that together, it's easy to see why some fans would think she's a cheater or a poor sport. One thing becomes another, and before you know it, there's a pattern of "questionable behavior," some of it real, some of it imagined.

That being said, of all the controversies she's been involved in, there are only two things I can honestly say I was disappointed in her for -- the incident at Zurich and the one at Roland Garros. As far as Zurich is concerned, she's already admitted that she regrets what happened there, and Davenport seems to have moved past it as well. I remember her admitting before the '03 Aus Open match that she thought JHH put a lot of pressure on herself. As far as Roland Garros is concerned, I'm still disappointed in the way it was handled publicly, but I'm not going to hate someone just because I disagree with how they handle something.

I also think there's some truth to the "People don't like her because she doesn't seem like a warm, friendly person" theory. I think that even the most fervent fans of hers would admit that her English interviews can be quite predictable in terms of the answers she gives. That being said, she's gotten a lot better in the past few months. I don't think she's like that in reality, though. Of the translated French interviews of hers that I've read, she's thoughtful, friendly, and even humorous. There really is a striking difference between the English-speaking Henin-Hardenne and the French-speaking one.

I think that the saddest thing about these controversies surrounding Henin-Hardenne is that off the court, she seems like a fairly involved top player. I've lost count of how many pictures I've seen of her signing autographs or conducting children's clinics. Don't get me wrong, she's no Clijsters, but Henin-Hardenne certainly is no slouch in that department herself.
I don't know why people seem to think that it's only the Williams' and the Williams fans that 'despise' JHH. Or that only the Williams fans see JHH as a threat, and that's the only reason why people don't like her. It seems as if people forget about all of the other stuff that caseyl45 has greatly displayed, or any of the stuff that the actual players themselves have said about Justine's gamesmanship. The list of players includes Davenport, Capriati, Clijsters, S. Williams, even Myskina! I normally don't post in argument threads, but some of the things said in this post are truly ridiculous!

It really doesn't matter if 'Williams fans' see Justine as a threat or not, because Justine has beaten Serena before the RG03 incident! Twice on clay, if i'm correct. And you never know, she probably will beat her again many more times in her career. And even though I was disappointed that Serena lost those 2 times, I still respected Justine. There wasn't nearly as much animosity(besides the typical fanbase stuff) as you see nowadays. Then, I saw Justine as a fighter. I still wanted to cheer for Justine, she was my 3rd fave (after Serena and Venus), to win RG because I wanted Justine to win for her mother, her entire life story, I believed in Justine. But what she did at RG, and her comments to follow, in addition to her gamesmanship in other matches against other players all adds up. Now don't get me wrong, I don't hate JHH or any other player for that matter. I can't find it in myself to hate Justine. I still love to watch her game. But I can tell you that I have lost respect for her ever since RG 2003. And I can totally understand why many despise her.

bandabou
Feb 19th, 2004, 05:55 AM
Isn´t it funny that everytime she questioned or talked crap about a player, she turns around to do the same?! Called Lindsay a faker for cramps, then she beats Lindsay after having cramps.

Said the sisters are boring and bad for the tour, now it´s herself who´s winning all the majors and the hyprocy: The williamses are great champions, this and that.....

And of course hand-gate.

Dede42
Feb 19th, 2004, 06:00 AM
"There's an honesty to the Justinator that I can't find in other
players."
"The ethics issue? It doesn't bother me. I find it fascinating that she's
a deeply complex character with motives that comes out from who
knows where?"

How can you justify these two statements?

Greenout
Feb 19th, 2004, 06:10 AM
"There's an honesty to the Justinator that I can't find in other
players."
"The ethics issue? It doesn't bother me. I find it fascinating that she's
a deeply complex character with motives that comes out from who
knows where?"

How can you justify these two statements?


Read the first sentence. I state that it probably all comes down
to PERSONAL perspective/history/opinions in the end. I don't
have to justify my personal perspective to you or anyone. This
is how I see it and how I feel it. It's not fact. It's just the way
I see it. There's nothing wrong nor nothing right about it.



How far do you want to carry this? Will you assault her at
some tennis event in the USA or WIMBLEDON?


This is my last post on this thread. It's always borders on Neo
Nazi hate baiting in the end. I don't need it and it's dull to boot.

Dede42
Feb 19th, 2004, 06:16 AM
Read the first sentence. I state that it probably all comes down
to PERSONAL perspective/history/opinions in the end. I don't
have to justify my personal perspective to you or anyone. This
is how I see it and how I feel it. It's not fact. It's just the way
I see it. There's nothing wrong nor nothing right about it.

:tape:
Why are you so defensive? I'm trying to have a dialogue about your comment. No one has to justify anything to anyone. I'm only asking because I don't understand how you can say one thing and then say completely the opposite three paragraphs later. I never said anything was right or wrong. I read the first sentence, but personal perspective/history/opinions has nothing to do with contradictory statements. Either you think she is totally honest or she has an ethics problem that, according to you, comes out of who knows where. Maybe justify was the wrong word. Maybe I should have just asked you to explain the contradictory statements you made, so that I can understand the basis for your opinion.

Dede42
Feb 19th, 2004, 06:19 AM
Read the first sentence. I state that it probably all comes down
to PERSONAL perspective/history/opinions in the end. I don't
have to justify my personal perspective to you or anyone. This
is how I see it and how I feel it. It's not fact. It's just the way
I see it. There's nothing wrong nor nothing right about it.



How far do you want to carry this? Will you assault her at
some tennis event in the USA or WIMBLEDON?


This is my last post on this thread. It's always borders on Neo
Nazi hate baiting in the end. I don't need it and it's dull to boot.
How dare you? I have never said one hateful thing about Justine on this thread. I have never made any threatening comments or assaulted or insulted you or Justine in anyway. What is it with you and the personal attacks? Believe me, I am far from anything Nazi. Sounds like you're the one doing the baiting here.

If you don't know how to debate an issue or don't like to debate, don't post on the message board. Especially if you feel threatened in backing up your own statements.

skanky~skanketta
Feb 19th, 2004, 06:36 AM
its easy. in my case, when i hate on a player, there are 2 reasons.
1) the obnoxious fans.
2) they kick my other faves asses on a consistent basis. (like venus vs justine!:mad: but who couldnt love venus?:kiss:)

Couver
Feb 19th, 2004, 06:43 AM
I liked her a lot actually, starting from about late 2001 and into 2002. Then of course the RG then happend. Of course I can't say I hate, despise or even dislike her. I just don't cheer for her anymore. I don't have the energy to despise a woman I have never met.

Ari
Feb 19th, 2004, 07:26 AM
Oh geez did you come with that all by yourself?:lol: :lol: Hey did you read the slams between SJW and Sevenrichie? Makes are spats look like a relaxing cup of tea in May somewhere in the English countryside.............


Makes OUR spats look.......

Allez-H
Feb 19th, 2004, 07:45 AM
People who say that Justine lacks warmth or doesn't have a heart are just bullshiting.It's as if you they actually know her personally :rolleyes: Well,YA DON'T!!!!!
Do you think Justine actually cares about what the journalist or the Haters say,pleazzzzzzzzz.Fact is::Justine is a very succesfull tennisplayer right now,has a great loving entourage around her,and she's happy.And that's the only thing that matters.Now will you please excuse me,as I will go to school and comeback later to enjoy Miss cheatah herself on the courts of Antwerp,thank you very much

servenrichie
Feb 19th, 2004, 08:32 AM
Where is she despised? Well, I won't deign to answer that question because I can't give you geographical positions of those who have written letters to Jon's Mailbag on SI.com and several other message boards, besides this one. I have not taken a poll and I'm just asking a question based on my observations. Contrary to popular Justin-fan opinion, this thread is not contrived to elicit negative commentary, but to answer a question that's been on my mind since the AO 2004. I could very well pose and have on other message boards posed the same question regarding Venus and Serena. However, I tend to get the same rhetorical responses with invalid reasoning from people who are either blind to their own prejudices or don't have enough balls to say what the real reason is.

Regarding Serena being displaced quickly, I don't think 50 weeks at No. 1 is being displaced quickly. The last time I saw Justine play Serena, Serena beat her like a step-child at Wimby.

Regarding your accusation of people inventing reasons to dislike Justine, it's not hard when she obviously gives people the ammunition to have reasons to dislike her that have nothing to do with her ability to play tennis or her recent winning streak since the Sisters have been off the tour due to injuries.

"players who were never exposed to tennis etiquette growing up don't look to see what their opponent is doing before serving" I take it that this remark is intended for Serena. Not only is it factually incorrect, it's silly. Serena has been playing tennis since she was 4 years old. She entered her first tournament when she was around 6 years old. The Sisters did play on the Junior circuit for a while, until Richard saw how detrimental it could possibly be to their psyche and how it would take away from their childhood. Also, by the time Serena played Justine at RG 03, she had won five Grand Slams, and no other incident regarding tennis etiquette had ever been a factor in any of those events. So to say that she had never been exposed to tennis etiquette growing up, not to look up to see what her opponent is doing before serving is at best biased propaganda and at worst an outright lie. I think tennis etiquette would more aptly apply to the receiver to make sure she holds her hand up to stop serve before the ball is in the air. At the very least to admit to the umpire that she did ask for a halt in serve to give her opponent her first serve.

Also, I see you tend to stereotype Serena fans as US fans and vice versa. This is also a misappropriation of truth. There are quite a few Justine fans here in the US. All you need do is look to this board. By the same token, there are quite a few US fans who are not Serena fans, if you haven't noticed. I reiterate, this onslaught of despise in my opinion, seems to have stemmed from AO 2004 when Justine beat Kim. The Sisters have never enjoyed widespread fan appreciation within the US for obvious reasons. I think they have some core die-hard US fans, but they also have European fans. So, my question obviously has nothing to do with Serena fans or US fans and their ability or inability to find a European idol because the Williams' sisters have been off the tour.One of the best posts here:worship: :worship: :worship:

~ The Leopard ~
Feb 19th, 2004, 08:33 AM
Yes. WTAworld will not allow me to log on at home with my DeMond ID. I've never tried to perpetrate the two ID's were not the same person.No, of course not, you seemed quite open about it. I wasn't making an accusation, just trying to clear up some confusion in my mind from seeing these two different posters posting as if they were the same person.

Thank you for your straightforward answer to my question.

I've already given my answer to the question that started the thread. Hopefully, since we had a li'l clash the other day, you accept that I've given you a reasonable and straightforward answer, even if it was not the one you wanted.

servenrichie
Feb 19th, 2004, 08:35 AM
This personal attack S-U-C-K-S big time. JustineTime, VCR, and I know this girl a lot better than you. None of us are "Williams diehards" (though we all respect them) so our high regard for Sarah is NOT being part of the same "fan base". It's who she is HERSELF; which you could learn something from! :rolleyes:Well I am a "Williams diehard", I aint ashamed of that. You, she and the rest of you chameleons could learn something from me about taking a stand:p

servenrichie
Feb 19th, 2004, 08:46 AM
I don't know why people seem to think that it's only the Williams' and the Williams fans that 'despise' JHH. Or that only the Williams fans see JHH as a threat, and that's the only reason why people don't like her. It seems as if people forget about all of the other stuff that caseyl45 has greatly displayed, or any of the stuff that the actual players themselves have said about Justine's gamesmanship. The list of players includes Davenport, Capriati, Clijsters, S. Williams, even Myskina! I normally don't post in argument threads, but some of the things said in this post are truly ridiculous!

It really doesn't matter if 'Williams fans' see Justine as a threat or not, because Justine has beaten Serena before the RG03 incident! Twice on clay, if i'm correct. And you never know, she probably will beat her again many more times in her career. And even though I was disappointed that Serena lost those 2 times, I still respected Justine. There wasn't nearly as much animosity(besides the typical fanbase stuff) as you see nowadays. Then, I saw Justine as a fighter. I still wanted to cheer for Justine, she was my 3rd fave (after Serena and Venus), to win RG because I wanted Justine to win for her mother, her entire life story, I believed in Justine. But what she did at RG, and her comments to follow, in addition to her gamesmanship in other matches against other players all adds up. Now don't get me wrong, I don't hate JHH or any other player for that matter. I can't find it in myself to hate Justine. I still love to watch her game. But I can tell you that I have lost respect for her ever since RG 2003. And I can totally understand why many despise her.Of course, it makes her fans feel better to believe that only Williams fans cant stand Henin. The truth is that it is spread out. More than a half of her fans were former Hingis fans, who would side with the devil, if the devil becomes a remote threat to V & S, while some are genuine fans. Justine was my third favourite after V & S. Hell, I even defended her, when she accused Davenport of faking in Zürich, because I was live in that match. After the RO and what transcribed afterwards, I cant get myself to cheer her. She is and was the only player I have directly attacked (all my attacks are reserved for moron posters like Rebecca and the rest of her moron gangs), because of how the case was handled.
Of course part of why she is also despised is because she is the current number 1, they are all despised by everyone who is not their fan anyway. Saying she is depised by Williams fanbase is gullible, but if it makes you guys feel better, be my guest:p

servenrichie
Feb 19th, 2004, 08:54 AM
To me, if you can't beat the best without playing fair then you aren't the best. Exactly!
All the past number 1s are known as arrogant, I am yet to see a number 1, whose titles are almost always tainted, because of questionable ethics. Maybe as "big mouth" Macenroe? put it "she needs all the help she can get":shrug:

Hazy
Feb 19th, 2004, 08:58 AM
Funny, all those Williams fans saying it aren't mostly Williams fans that hate Justine.

malaye
Feb 19th, 2004, 09:09 AM
Dawn - think of the WORST SINGLE THING you ever did.

How would you like the totality of your life and worth to be judged on that?:worship: The tragedy of Marco Pantani comes to mind :sad:

Dawn Marie
Feb 19th, 2004, 09:17 AM
because the fool that wrote this about the Williams fans is a ignorant moron. Trying his best to make people believe that it is all about the Williams fan hating on JUJU.

It is so obvious that ssooooooooooooooo many posters think that "WILLIAMS fans" is nothing but a single black person or group. The ignorants are always on the prowl trying to put the blame on the "Williams fans".

Rotf at the tools.:) Stop actin like a department store clerk at Harrods for gawds sakes.

servenrichie
Feb 19th, 2004, 09:37 AM
The only players that are really despised on the tour are the Williams sisters. It’s common knowledge. Not only by the players but by the commentators and most tennis fans too.

They are booed almost everywhere they play and hated in France. Another fucking moron on the prowl!
People are at least giving reasons, why Henin may be despised, but you have none other than...never mind.
Morons will always be morons, that at least is a sure thing:fiery:

hollywood7172
Feb 19th, 2004, 10:03 AM
two words: THE HAND :angel: :devil: :angel: :devil: :angel:

hollywood7172
Feb 19th, 2004, 10:06 AM
Rotf at the tools.:) Stop actin like a department store clerk at Harrods for gawds sakes.
BTW, i love how you put down people who generalize people by making a prejudiced generalization yourself. what's wrong with department store clerks?? :confused:

typical, classic dawnmarie line of thinking. i say, if you want less hate in the world, start with yourself honey!! :kiss:

Volcana
Feb 19th, 2004, 12:13 PM
They are booed almost everywhere they play and hated in France.
Yeah, I noticed all the booing in the 2002 RG final. That match really is the perfect example of how much the French fans hate the WIlliams sisters. The stands were virtually empty as 99% of the fans boycotted the final rather than watch two hated players. And those few who did show up booed every single point.

yeah. Right.

*JR*
Feb 19th, 2004, 12:40 PM
Well I am a "Williams diehard", I aint ashamed of that. You, she and the rest of you chameleons could learn something from me about taking a stand:p
Nor should you be ashamed of that. (So is SJW, BTW). My point again (if you're capable of comprehending it): EVEN non "Williams diehards" who know Sarah far better than you do have the highest regard for her as a poster, and a person! :rolleyes:

servenrichie
Feb 19th, 2004, 12:53 PM
Nor should you be ashamed of that. (So is SJW, BTW). My point again (if you're capable of comprehending it): EVEN non "Williams diehards" who know Sarah far better than you do have the highest regard for her as a poster, and a person! :rolleyes:Jolly, dont tell me you guys are already feeling the chick. Where does it take place :drool: :lol:

Oh and dont worry, I know that poster enough and still stand by what I said about her:o

SJW
Feb 19th, 2004, 12:55 PM
yEs....i Iz A fAkE wIlLiEs FaN...nO-oNe CaN fOoL yOu, GeNiUs :o

jenny161185
Feb 19th, 2004, 01:02 PM
i dont know how you couldnt have soft spot for Justine - this girl has had a very tough life losing her mother and then fighting with her family , and she is probably the girl putting in the most effort to her improvement at the moment ie always looking to improve aspects of her game and doing so not just talking about it. I dont think shes that despised.

servenrichie
Feb 19th, 2004, 01:05 PM
yEs....i Iz A fAkE wIlLiEs FaN...nO-oNe CaN fOoL yOu, GeNiUs :oSo much for ignore:o

Hulet
Feb 19th, 2004, 01:22 PM
Nor should you be ashamed of that. (So is SJW, BTW). My point again (if you're capable of comprehending it): EVEN non "Williams diehards" who know Sarah far better than you do have the highest regard for her as a poster, and a person! :rolleyes:
Jolly, I tried to send to you this message in private, but I guess you are not reading it. It's not really fair to interfer in a fight between two people although that is exactly what I am doing right now. It's even worse when you gang up on one of the fighters, so can you please stop quit being a spokesperson for SJW. She started the fight, let her handle it.

geoepee
Feb 19th, 2004, 01:30 PM
Funny, all those Williams fans saying it aren't mostly Williams fans that hate Justine.
No where did i say that most Williams fans didn't hate Justine. I can't speak on behalf of the 'most', only myself. I'm saying it's not only the Williams fans that don't like her.

servenrichie
Feb 19th, 2004, 01:33 PM
Jolly, I tried to send to you this message in private, but I guess you are not reading it. It's not really fair to interfer in a fight between two people although that is exactly what I am doing right now. It's even worse when you gang up on one of the fighters, so can you please stop quit being a spokesperson for SJW. She started the fight, let her handle it.
:worship: :worship: :worship:

pigam
Feb 19th, 2004, 01:40 PM
I don't know where justine deserved all the hate. It's probably the hand, and the succes.
I'm not gonna spoil energy on the hand. She made a mistake, but who of us never did?
To me, it's clear the hatred has grown since she's winning slams. Succes does that to (some) people, apparently. Whatever.

I don't believe the Ju-fans who say "Justine doesn't care one bit about what other people think". In a way, I know Justine a lil better than most, and I'm sure she DOES care, as does any other human being. She does care when a Flemish reporter says 'We -speaking in GENERAL terms- in Flanders think you're cold and don't show emotions' or when media makes fun of her breasts/looks. Of course she cares. Doping insinuations? She was devastated by them! She cares.
There is just one thing Justine doesn't do (isn't willing to...) and that is change her personnality in function of that image. What strikes me in reading interviews dating 7 years back, is that she still says the same things, has the same ambitions. Some people call that boring, I call it being sincere. The facts she doesn't laugh, cuddle, 'catwalks', giggles, chats but is angry, frustrated, 'bitchy', falling on her knees, having tears in her eyes is called 'not showing/HAVING a personality' by some. I think the contrary. That's because she's my fav. Everyone who has a fav on this boad knows the feeling. Having a fav doesn't mean 'hating every other (successfull) player' though.

SJW
Feb 19th, 2004, 01:41 PM
Jolly, I tried to send to you this message in private, but I guess you are not reading it. It's not really fair to interfer in a fight between two people although that is exactly what I am doing right now. It's even worse when you gang up on one of the fighters, so can you please stop quit being a spokesperson for SJW. She started the fight, let her handle it.
i started what?

i started nothing

The Crow
Feb 19th, 2004, 01:44 PM
She does care when a Flemish reporter says 'We -speaking in GENERAL terms- in Flanders think you're cold and don't show emotions'
Luc Alloo is an idiot who is only good in doing idiotic stuff with sportspeople. So don't you ever call him a reporter again! :mad: ;)

servenrichie
Feb 19th, 2004, 01:44 PM
i started what?

i started nothingMeanwhile, you bragged a while ago about having long memory:tape:

SJW
Feb 19th, 2004, 01:52 PM
Meanwhile, you bragged a while ago about having long memory:tape:
since you have such selective memory dear, you forget that YOU got into a discussion involving me and Rebecca...you didn't have to, but you chose to.

so again, i started nothing with you

pigam
Feb 19th, 2004, 01:53 PM
:o ... It seems like Justine really calls out the best in everyone of us ... :o

saki
Feb 19th, 2004, 01:57 PM
One more time: cheating is defined as breaking a rule. What rule in tennis has Justine broken? Call her bad sportsmanlike if you wish, but not a cheater because it's just not accurate. As others have said, every player has at some point kept quiet about a call that's wrongly gone their way, not mentioned a double bounce (e.g. Venus in one of her Wimbledon doubles matches last year), and other similar things. This is why I don't think that the hatred some people seem to have for Justine actually has anything to do with this particular incident. From what I can gather, most people resent the fact that the one they saw as the weakling trying her best with the sad story about her mother became a champion rather than an also-ran. The vast majority don't actually hate her because of The Hand, they hate her because she won that match and others.

The other main factor in people disliking Justine, especially commentators/writers, has been the "she's always faking it" false claims from sweet Kimmy. For some reason best known to themselves, no writer that I've come across has seen fit to point out that these are false claims instead claiming that "Kimmy is so nice that if she says mean things about Justine they must be true". To clarify, I don't bear Kim herself illwill over the comments as every player (Justine definitely included) has made sour comments after a loss. I do, however, have issues with those who have taken her word for this with no analysis. Some statement of regret on Kim's part wouldn't come amiss (Justine has, whatever else you may think about her, said many times that she regrets her comments on Lindsay) but I can understand that pride might hold her back. But, as with The Hand incident, people are using Kim's comments as something to pin their already present dislike of Justine on. I.e. they dislike her and therefore need to find a reason.

And, on her personality, Pigam's second paragraph says it perfectly. :)

faste5683
Feb 19th, 2004, 01:58 PM
No the final sentence is a metaphor :rolleyes:

:haha:

Well, it could have been worse: you could have presented an analogy. :eek:

:wavey:

servenrichie
Feb 19th, 2004, 02:01 PM
since you have such selective memory dear, you forget that YOU got into a discussion involving me and Rebecca...you didn't have to, but you chose to.

so again, i started nothing with you
...involving you and Rebecca calling Servenrichie an idiot. Cherry,it is official, you are a moron. Put me that ignore list quick:devil:

pigam
Feb 19th, 2004, 02:02 PM
And, on her personality, Pigam's second paragraph says it perfectly. :)
Thanks :)

SJW
Feb 19th, 2004, 02:02 PM
not mentioned a double bounce (e.g. Venus in one of her Wimbledon doubles matches last year),
sorry to be a PITA but:

1) it wasn't a double bounce, but a double hit

2) a double hit is also "legal" provided it's done in one fluid motion (which it was)

apart from that, your post was ok ;):)

Experimentee
Feb 19th, 2004, 02:07 PM
I dont think Justine is that despised, not as much as the Williams sisters. Although the reason people dont like her is because of her bad sportsmanship, especially in RG 2003. After that tournament she started to get cocky, she made a whole lot of statements that were distasteful, like claiming that players are afraid to play her.

flyingmachine
Feb 19th, 2004, 02:43 PM
I remembered when Matina N started to play well (At the begining of Matina's career she wasn't playing that well and it wasn't until she starts to train in a differently way this was when people started to call her a men as well as she opens her sexuality to the world that she starts to play well) and beat Chris Evens (the American idol of that time) a lots of people slat of her just like some of the Williams fans slating Justine off. How things change for Matina N over the years from public enemy number one to one of the greats.

I think Martina N and Justine have many tough times during their lifes and come through. We insprite by that and not slat them with a hammer.

I think everyone involed in RG has its faults this is includes Justine, Serena, the crowd and the umpie.

Speaking about the line call well, During this years' AO Tim Henman saw the ball in the his line but the umpie said it was out and guess what happened Tim didn't said nothing and take the points this was happening a few time during that match. He didn't said it was in till after the match. Yet no-one critrise that.

I don't know will Justine become one of the greats but only time can tell.

"Sluggy"
Feb 19th, 2004, 02:59 PM
I totally agree with Sartrista. the cheating thing was blown out of proportion. absolutely. I totally agree. :wavey:


Oh, don't be silly. If you haven't already noticed, at least 90% of tennis message board posters are morons, or 12-year-old kids. And they're probably the same people who write the hate mail. Look around WTAWorld... how many of these posters can you take remotely seriously? Justine's 'haters' are hardly representative of tennis fans worldwide; merely those with the inclination to spend half their lives being bitter about a tennis player they don't like on the internet.

The 'cheating' thing is being blown waaaaay out of proportion, too. Justine was unsporting, but no more so than a player who sees that a ball is in, but keeps their mouth shut when it is called out - and every player has done that. Justine didn't have to lie, because the umpire never asked her anything. She kept her mouth shut and the bad officiating went her way, just like it's gone Serena, Steffi, Martina, Venus, whoever's way in the past.

As you said: "So, you despise ambition? You want anyone to fail who has aspirations of being the best and reaching the top of the mountain?" That's what Justine has. That's what fuels all those statements you hear from her - she's standing up to Serena's intimidation factor. Do you hate her because of that?

Jakeev
Feb 19th, 2004, 03:04 PM
BTW, i love how you put down people who generalize people by making a prejudiced generalization yourself. what's wrong with department store clerks?? :confused:

typical, classic dawnmarie line of thinking. i say, if you want less hate in the world, start with yourself honey!! :kiss:

Now damn that was good..............:kiss:

JasonUK
Feb 19th, 2004, 05:02 PM
Ok, I'm gonna try and make a sensible post here...

If Justine is despised, why does she have so many supporters?
If Serena is despised, why does she have such a huge fan base?
If Venus is despised, why do so many people admire her?

And the list goes on for so many other players...

DeDe4925
Feb 19th, 2004, 06:33 PM
No, of course not, you seemed quite open about it. I wasn't making an accusation, just trying to clear up some confusion in my mind from seeing these two different posters posting as if they were the same person.

Thank you for your straightforward answer to my question.

I've already given my answer to the question that started the thread. Hopefully, since we had a li'l clash the other day, you accept that I've given you a reasonable and straightforward answer, even if it was not the one you wanted.
LOL, I wouldn't dare dictate your opinion to you. I do appreciate the straightforward answer. As I say, I may not AGREE with it, but at least it was honest and not defensive. Thanks. :)

grasshopper
Feb 19th, 2004, 06:56 PM
It seems that as long as her dishonesty was about
the William's Sisters it was acceptable to most of the fans.
When Kim, Davenport, Jennifer and Msykina got into the act
then people started really looking at Justine in a different light!

servenrichie
Feb 19th, 2004, 07:05 PM
It seems that as long as her dishonesty was about
the William's Sisters it was acceptable to most of the fans.
When Kim, Davenport, Jennifer and Msykina got into the act
then people started really looking at Justine in a different light! http://www.wtaworld.com/ubb/icons/icon14.gif This new member hit the nail on the head. AO this year generated more
indignance than RO last year, even though Henin did nothing in comparison:o

Dawn Marie
Feb 19th, 2004, 08:02 PM
Hollywood,my comments went right over your head. I just don't have the time to explain anything to you. Just continue to get trippy over my words.

A tool, implied in this thread that it was the Williams fans who hate Justine only. same kind of thinking when black people walk into a high class department store. Stereotypical profile behavior.

Again, my comment went right over your head. Do u think it dumb to state that only the Williams fans dislike Justine? It seems that many people see what they can't bare to see.

Thanks to those who gave me postitive rep points, I am glad u understand me.:)

DA FOREHAND
Feb 19th, 2004, 08:08 PM
Yeah it's blown out of proportion when you are one of the lead stories on Sportscenter. justine's unsportsmanlike behaviour, has earned her the scorn of many.

DA FOREHAND
Feb 19th, 2004, 08:32 PM
Why? Look at the people who despise her you have your answer LOL.


Yeah people who value character, and class.

faste5683
Feb 19th, 2004, 08:46 PM
http://www.wtaworld.com/ubb/icons/icon14.gif This new member hit the nail on the head. AO this year generated more
indignance than RO last year, even though Henin did nothing in comparison:o

:haha: Nothing in comparison?? She did nothing at all. People start pointing at "out" balls early in their junior careers. They have to because there's no umpire. I've seen all the top players do it, including Venus and Serena. It's nada, less than zero. An unconsious habit. A tic, etc.

:wavey:

faste5683
Feb 19th, 2004, 08:48 PM
Yeah it's blown out of proportion when you are one of the lead stories on Sportscenter. justine's unsportsmanlike behaviour, has earned her the scorn of many.

How many?

:wavey:

DeDe4925
Feb 19th, 2004, 08:59 PM
:haha: Nothing in comparison?? She did nothing at all. People start pointing at "out" balls early in their junior careers. They have to because there's no umpire. I've seen all the top players do it, including Venus and Serena. It's nada, less than zero. An unconsious habit. A tic, etc.

:wavey:
Exactly Ed. She did NOTHING at the AO 2004, but she did exhibit bad behaviour at RG 03. However, the scorn that followed AO2004 was like she did the same thing she did at RG 03. The person was comparing the two. We all know that some people are pissed off at her for beating Kim again and looked for anything to criticize her for. But, what the poster is saying is, if they are going to get rabid over that, what happened to the outrage when she really displayed a lack of character and ethics.
:rolleyes:

servenrichie
Feb 19th, 2004, 09:19 PM
Yeah people who value character, and class.:bigclap: :bigclap:

servenrichie
Feb 19th, 2004, 09:22 PM
Exactly Ed. She did NOTHING at the AO 2004, but she did exhibit bad behaviour at RG 03. However, the scorn that followed AO2004 was like she did the same thing she did at RG 03. The person was comparing the two. We all know that some people are pissed off at her for beating Kim again and looked for anything to criticize her for. But, what the poster is saying is, if they are going to get rabid over that, what happened to the outrage when she really displayed a lack of character and ethics.
:rolleyes:My, thanks for breaking it down to the less-intelligent, who cant even seem to comprehend a simple post:tape:

DeDe4925
Feb 19th, 2004, 09:26 PM
My, thanks for breaking it down to the less-intelligent, who cant even seem to comprehend a simple post:tape:
serven, faste is my friend. I would appreciate it if you didn't insult him like that. He's a very nice guy. He is a very respectful person, especially of other people's favs.

PreOp
Feb 19th, 2004, 10:57 PM
I agree with those who have said that Henin being "despised" (too strong a word I believe) goes with the turf of being number one. The focus is on her gamesmanship. However if she wasn?t "despised" for pushing the envelop of gamesmanship, with one hand at that, she would be for something else. After all her compatriot Clijsters is disliked by many, especially those drawn to Henin, for being too implausibly goody good.

Unfortunately for Henin Clijsters in defeat holds her head higher than the terribly pained Henin does in victory.

And when what goes around come around it will be all the sweeter for Clijsters. After all it is not only that you win, but how you win that matters.

faste5683
Feb 19th, 2004, 11:44 PM
Exactly Ed. She did NOTHING at the AO 2004, but she did exhibit bad behaviour at RG 03. However, the scorn that followed AO2004 was like she did the same thing she did at RG 03. The person was comparing the two. We all know that some people are pissed off at her for beating Kim again and looked for anything to criticize her for. But, what the poster is saying is, if they are going to get rabid over that, what happened to the outrage when she really displayed a lack of character and ethics.
:rolleyes:

But there *was* huge "outrage" over the FO incident; if there hadn't been it wouldn't have fueled such an anticipatory frenzy (and bullshit remarks by the media) at the U.S. Open. When nothing untoward happened there (Justine refuses to take an injury time-out against Capriatti despite clearly cramping), it almost seemed to disappoint some people. And yet, the "outrage" over the F.O. continued, like a never ending storm, until the Aussie Open. There, an unconcious habit (making a gesture to signal a ball in or out) simply added another spark to a pre-existing inferno.

Here's the deal: you can't blame HH for the French fans. That's a non-issue
You can't blame ANY player at ANY time for taking an injury time out. It's within the rules, it's a non-issue. The chair umpire at the French did NOT ask Justine about the let serve (he couldn't, it's against the rules), so once again it's a non-issue.

What DID happen was that Serena lost the point. One point in an entire match.
Should Justine, while struggling mightily against a superb champion, surrounded by screaming fans (and numbed by the possibility of winning her first major) have walked calmly over to the chair umpire and requested him to give Serena another 1st. serve? In a perfect world, yes. But it didn't happen that way. HH just wanted to get on with it.

So, you see De, I understood what the guy/gal was talking about. However, I do appreciate your clarification .

BTW, thank's for defending me. :couple: I'm fresh out of the junior member stage, you know...
:haha:

moon
Feb 20th, 2004, 12:05 AM
I think it was right after FO that someone on the board said that Justine's actions would follow her for a while, and they were right. :p

Before FO, only people who really followed tennis knew about her tiff with Lindsay, but after the FO everyone started to question her ethics and the fact that she would do ANYTHING to win. Is this against tennis rules? NO But how you play the game goes along way as to how you are perceived by the public.

Fyndh0rnElf
Feb 20th, 2004, 12:25 AM
I think it was right after FO that someone on the board said that Justine's actions would follow her for a while, and they were right. :p

Before FO, only people who really followed tennis knew about her tiff with Lindsay, but after the FO everyone started to question her ethics and the fact that she would do ANYTHING to win. Is this against tennis rules? NO But how you play the game goes along way as to how you are perceived by the public.

Tennis is about respect. Henin showed no respect for Serena that day...

When Henin said " If it had been anyone else other than Serena, I would have given her the 1st serve. But because it was her, I didn't!" she blew it :timebomb:

She could have her reasons to hate Serena, but she still comes across as a cheater, and that's true. Not only because of that inccident, but also because of ALL THOSE injury timeouts she took at crucial times, only to come back, stun the opponent, and steal the match :mad:

faste5683
Feb 20th, 2004, 12:29 AM
Tennis is about respect. Henin showed no respect for Serena that day...

When Henin said " If it had been anyone else other than Serena, I would have given her the 1st serve. But because it was her, I didn't!" she blew it


Did Justine say that? Or was it Carlos?

:wavey:

Fyndh0rnElf
Feb 20th, 2004, 12:44 AM
Did Justine say that? Or was it Carlos?

:wavey:

OOPS SORRY! :unsure: I THINK IT WAS CARLOS NOT HENIN!!!


SOOORRRRRRRYYY I DIDNT MEAN TO FABRICATE INFORMATION :timebomb:

Volcana
Feb 20th, 2004, 03:04 AM
The sheer length of this thread say something.

I guess it was a good question.

Dede42
Feb 20th, 2004, 05:42 AM
But there *was* huge "outrage" over the FO incident; if there hadn't been it wouldn't have fueled such an anticipatory frenzy (and bullshit remarks by the media) at the U.S. Open. When nothing untoward happened there (Justine refuses to take an injury time-out against Capriatti despite clearly cramping), it almost seemed to disappoint some people. And yet, the "outrage" over the F.O. continued, like a never ending storm, until the Aussie Open. There, an unconcious habit (making a gesture to signal a ball in or out) simply added another spark to a pre-existing inferno.

Here's the deal: you can't blame HH for the French fans. That's a non-issue
You can't blame ANY player at ANY time for taking an injury time out. It's within the rules, it's a non-issue. The chair umpire at the French did NOT ask Justine about the let serve (he couldn't, it's against the rules), so once again it's a non-issue.

What DID happen was that Serena lost the point. One point in an entire match.
Should Justine, while struggling mightily against a superb champion, surrounded by screaming fans (and numbed by the possibility of winning her first major) have walked calmly over to the chair umpire and requested him to give Serena another 1st. serve? In a perfect world, yes. But it didn't happen that way. HH just wanted to get on with it.

So, you see De, I understood what the guy/gal was talking about. However, I do appreciate your clarification .

BTW, thank's for defending me. :couple: I'm fresh out of the junior member stage, you know...
:haha:

LOL, well I'm not going to debate you on your statement because you know my position on it ad nauseum, as we have had this debate many times before. We have agreed to disagree ;)

BTW, no thanks necessary. You know you're my boo. :hug:

Dede42
Feb 20th, 2004, 05:45 AM
Tennis is about respect. Henin showed no respect for Serena that day...

When Henin said " If it had been anyone else other than Serena, I would have given her the 1st serve. But because it was her, I didn't!" she blew it :timebomb:

She could have her reasons to hate Serena, but she still comes across as a cheater, and that's true. Not only because of that inccident, but also because of ALL THOSE injury timeouts she took at crucial times, only to come back, stun the opponent, and steal the match :mad:
That's what I'm talking about. :rocker2:

Dede42
Feb 20th, 2004, 05:48 AM
Did Justine say that? Or was it Carlos?

:wavey:
But Ed, she didn't deny it!! :rolleyes:

Dede42
Feb 20th, 2004, 05:49 AM
The sheer length of this thread say something.

I guess it was a good question.
LOL, I was thinking the same thing. I guess so! :wavey:

minboy
Feb 20th, 2004, 12:05 PM
, but also because of ALL THOSE injury timeouts she took at crucial times, only to come back, stun the opponent, and steal the match :mad:
bullshit again! do u know how many time out she took last year? not more than 5 i think, which is certainly the average for wta players. Nobody ever had problems with it untill sweet kim lied big time. And, off course, if kim says something, it "must" be true:rolleyes: :rolleyes: So stop saying she always take time out when she's down because this is simply not true, and it makes you appear as someone who can't get his facts rights, and thus who's opinion doesn't count

PreOp
Feb 20th, 2004, 07:00 PM
This is a good thread, mainly because it forces us to examine what has drawn us to the women's game.

With the skills and athleticism that Henin brings to the table she is a joy to watch. Beyond that she puts it all on the line for her fans, unlike, for instance, the Williams sisters who are always a glass half full. To top it all she has the passion for winning that the very greatest athletes in any sport must have.

However over her head hangs the ever-darkening cloud of gamesmanship. She brought down the house and a great champion with one wave of her hand. A bout of extreme cramping is punctuated with great bursts of speed and power, distracting a very distractible opponent to no end. She of the perfect vision can call a ball that is too close to call as if it was without a doubt out. This to the dismay of an opponent already victimized by several critical bad calls. Her strategic use of injuries, real and imagined, has become almost legendary.

Henin's fans take the tact of "well everyone does it." Well, except for the hand, I suppose most everyone has done it at times. But only Henin is the complete package. And only Henin has been blasted by two of the classiest top ladies of the current tour, Davenport and Clijsters, neither of who has ever had issues with other players. Throw in Serena, and you have a trifecta that clinches the case for the argument that Henin's gamesmanship is a detriment to the sport.

Consider what Jon Wertheim has to say in his "Tennis Mailbag" of February 8th, 2004:

"...I'm completely stumped by this one. Let's get this straight: Henin-Hardenne is the devil incarnate because.... she put up a finger indicating that the Clijsters ball was out? So what? How many times do we see football players motion in their team's direction when refs decide who recovered the fumble? How many basketball players protest when it's clear they committed a foul. How many baseball players trap the ball and then raise an arm to indicate the catch was clean? This is not cheating. This is, at worst, gamesmanship. As we said last week, it's incumbent on the officials not be swayed by these displays"

Notice that in order to justify Henin's behavior he must ignore Tennis and reference the sports of Football, Basketball, and Baseball.

John Stockton had been a hall of fame caliber player in the NBA. He was undersized and not exceptionally fast. To compensate he perfected the art of holding, pushing, and elbowing (all in violation of the rules of Basketball), without being caught by the referees. Frequently he drove his opponents to distraction. These skills that violated the rules of the sport are what made him a great player. Such is the culture of Basketball, and John Stockton is justly admired for how he played the game. Is this where we, as Tennis fans, want Tennis to go?

minboy
Feb 20th, 2004, 07:18 PM
This is a good thread, mainly because it forces us to examine what has drawn us to the women's game.

With the skills and athleticism that Henin brings to the table she is a joy to watch. Beyond that she puts it all on the line for her fans, unlike, for instance, the Williams sisters who are always a glass half full. To top it all she has the passion for winning that the very greatest athletes in any sport must have.

However over her head hangs the ever-darkening cloud of gamesmanship. She brought down the house and a great champion with one wave of her hand. A bout of extreme cramping is punctuated with great bursts of speed and power, distracting a very distractible opponent to no end. She of the perfect vision can call a ball that is too close to call as if it was without a doubt out. This to the dismay of an opponent already victimized by several critical bad calls. Her strategic use of injuries, real and imagined, has become almost legendary.

Henin's fans take the tact of "well everyone does it." Well, except for the hand, I suppose most everyone has done it at times. But only Henin is the complete package. And only Henin has been blasted by two of the classiest top ladies of the current tour, Davenport and Clijsters, neither of who has ever had issues with other players. Throw in Serena, and you have a trifecta that clinches the case for the argument that Henin's gamesmanship is a detriment to the sport.

Consider what Jon Wertheim has to say in his "Tennis Mailbag" of February 8th, 2004:

"...I'm completely stumped by this one. Let's get this straight: Henin-Hardenne is the devil incarnate because.... she put up a finger indicating that the Clijsters ball was out? So what? How many times do we see football players motion in their team's direction when refs decide who recovered the fumble? How many basketball players protest when it's clear they committed a foul. How many baseball players trap the ball and then raise an arm to indicate the catch was clean? This is not cheating. This is, at worst, gamesmanship. As we said last week, it's incumbent on the officials not be swayed by these displays"

Notice that in order to justify Henin's behavior he must ignore Tennis and reference the sports of Football, Basketball, and Baseball.

John Stockton had been a hall of fame caliber player in the NBA. He was undersized and not exceptionally fast. To compensate he perfected the art of holding, pushing, and elbowing (all in violation of the rules of Basketball), without being caught by the referees. Frequently he drove his opponents to distraction. These skills that violated the rules of the sport are what made him a great player. Such is the culture of Basketball, and John Stockton is justly admired for how he played the game. Is this where we, as Tennis fans, want Tennis to go?
There is always something justine-haters fail to mention : people keep talking about justine's supposed gamesmanship BECAUSE it fits their théory, and because they don't like justine in the first place.
Who are talking about justine's gamesmanship? the justine-haters, so how is it surprising?
A year ago, some people used to complained about the WS domination being boring. Who were they? you got it, williams haters.

Some further notes : lindsay never said anything bad about justine, so please get your facts right ( i know it doesn't fit your theory but still ). Kim did, but she's so nice she must be right huh:rolleyes: . Had justine said half kim said about her, it would still be "justine is a bitch" , kim does it, but she is "sweet kimmy":rolleyes: ( nothing against kim, just trying to point out double standards )

minboy
Feb 20th, 2004, 07:22 PM
and to respond to someone who said the RG thing will follow her a long time, i have to say that , as long as she will keeps winning, there will be haters, and as long as there will be haters, they will keep mentionning it. Nothing surprising really.

SJW
Feb 20th, 2004, 07:29 PM
hate to pick on you, but people still mention what Spirlea did in 97, and what has she done since? :)

DeDe4925
Feb 20th, 2004, 07:36 PM
This is a good thread, mainly because it forces us to examine what has drawn us to the women's game.

With the skills and athleticism that Henin brings to the table she is a joy to watch. Beyond that she puts it all on the line for her fans, unlike, for instance, the Williams sisters who are always a glass half full. To top it all she has the passion for winning that the very greatest athletes in any sport must have.

However over her head hangs the ever-darkening cloud of gamesmanship. She brought down the house and a great champion with one wave of her hand. A bout of extreme cramping is punctuated with great bursts of speed and power, distracting a very distractible opponent to no end. She of the perfect vision can call a ball that is too close to call as if it was without a doubt out. This to the dismay of an opponent already victimized by several critical bad calls. Her strategic use of injuries, real and imagined, has become almost legendary.

Henin's fans take the tact of "well everyone does it." Well, except for the hand, I suppose most everyone has done it at times. But only Henin is the complete package. And only Henin has been blasted by two of the classiest top ladies of the current tour, Davenport and Clijsters, neither of who has ever had issues with other players. Throw in Serena, and you have a trifecta that clinches the case for the argument that Henin's gamesmanship is a detriment to the sport.

Consider what Jon Wertheim has to say in his "Tennis Mailbag" of February 8th, 2004:

"...I'm completely stumped by this one. Let's get this straight: Henin-Hardenne is the devil incarnate because.... she put up a finger indicating that the Clijsters ball was out? So what? How many times do we see football players motion in their team's direction when refs decide who recovered the fumble? How many basketball players protest when it's clear they committed a foul. How many baseball players trap the ball and then raise an arm to indicate the catch was clean? This is not cheating. This is, at worst, gamesmanship. As we said last week, it's incumbent on the officials not be swayed by these displays"

Notice that in order to justify Henin's behavior he must ignore Tennis and reference the sports of Football, Basketball, and Baseball.

John Stockton had been a hall of fame caliber player in the NBA. He was undersized and not exceptionally fast. To compensate he perfected the art of holding, pushing, and elbowing (all in violation of the rules of Basketball), without being caught by the referees. Frequently he drove his opponents to distraction. These skills that violated the rules of the sport are what made him a great player. Such is the culture of Basketball, and John Stockton is justly admired for how he played the game. Is this where we, as Tennis fans, want Tennis to go?
I'm confused :scratch: are you defending Justine, or saying that what she did was wrong? I think you're riding the fence.

Secondly, I was not under the impression that people who brought a "glass half full" to the game could receive the seemingly unobtainable rank of No. 1 and 2 in a tour of hundreds of players. I never thought that people who didn't bring their "A" game could attain a total of 10 Grand Slams and three gold medals between them. I never thought that Reebok and Nike would offer 40 and 50 million dollar contracts to people who played half-ass, and I'm not even counting the numerous other endorsements. Hmmm, but let's see Justine who got her ass whipped in straight sets by a person who brought a glass half full to Wimbledon. What does that say about the skills and athleticism Justine brings to the table? I wonder if that was one day she DIDN'T put it all on the line for her fans. I guess that was one day Justine didn't have a passion for winning. :lol:

My dear Pre-Op, your post is at the very least :bs:

sartrista7
Feb 20th, 2004, 07:41 PM
hate to pick on you, but people still mention what Spirlea did in 97, and what has she done since? :)

Reached a career high of No 7 later that year, beating ASV, Davenport, Testud, Fernandez and avenging her USO loss to Venus in the space of a few weeks that autumn; beat Davenport and Seles in third-set tiebreaks back-to-back to reach the Hilton Head final in 1998; won Strasbourg 1998; beat Serena Williams in the USO 1998; reached back-to-back semi-finals at the YEC, 1997 and 1998; beat Pierce en route to the Cairo final in 1999; got married and is presumably enjoying the rewards of a fine career.

No dissing Irina, please; she was awesome :) Most people who actually paid attention to the game remember her more for her mesmerising Graf-esque game in any case.

SJW
Feb 20th, 2004, 07:45 PM
Reached a career high of No 7 later that year, beating ASV, Davenport, Testud, Fernandez and avenging her USO loss to Venus in the space of a few weeks that autumn; beat Davenport and Seles in third-set tiebreaks back-to-back to reach the Hilton Head final in 1998; won Strasbourg 1998; beat Serena Williams in the USO 1998; reached back-to-back semi-finals at the YEC, 1997 and 1998; beat Pierce en route to the Cairo final in 1999; got married and is presumably enjoying the rewards of a fine career.

No dissing Irina, please; she was awesome :) Most people who actually paid attention to the game remember her more for her mesmerising Graf-esque game in any case.
ok dear.....'98 was 6 years ago.....i stand by my point

DeDe4925
Feb 20th, 2004, 07:46 PM
Reached a career high of No 7 later that year, beating ASV, Davenport, Testud, Fernandez and avenging her USO loss to Venus in the space of a few weeks that autumn; beat Davenport and Seles in third-set tiebreaks back-to-back to reach the Hilton Head final in 1998; won Strasbourg 1998; beat Serena Williams in the USO 1998; reached back-to-back semi-finals at the YEC, 1997 and 1998; beat Pierce en route to the Cairo final in 1999; got married and is presumably enjoying the rewards of a fine career.

No dissing Irina, please; she was awesome :) Most people who actually paid attention to the game remember her more for her mesmerising Graf-esque game in any case.
No one but her die-hard fans will ever remember her for anything other than bumping into Venus on purpose and laughing about it, to try to intimidate her during the US Open. In hindsight she should be very embarrassed about that because it made her look stupid, immature and unsportsmanlike. She will always be dissed, and she deserves it, because it was uncalled for.

sartrista7
Feb 20th, 2004, 07:47 PM
She retired four years ago! You can't expect her to have done anything recently!

I mean... you may as well say of Novotna, "oh, 1998 was six years ago". If you're going to dismiss achievements on the basis of time there's no point in even talking about retired players.

Knizzle
Feb 20th, 2004, 07:49 PM
She retired four years ago! You can't expect her to have done anything recently!

I mean... you may as well say of Novotna, "oh, 1998 was six years ago". If you're going to dismiss achievements on the basis of time there's no point in even talking about retired players.

Why did you list her victories over the WS from 97 and 98??

sartrista7
Feb 20th, 2004, 07:52 PM
No one but her die-hard fans will ever remember her for anything other than bumping into Venus on purpose and laughing about it, to try to intimidate her during the US Open. In hindsight she should be very embarrassed about that because it made her look stupid, immature and unsportsmanlike. She will always be dissed, and she deserves it, because it was uncalled for.

Those who are fans of tennis as a sport will remember how players played, the shots they could hit which thrilled us. Those who possess the ability to relate to other human beings will see that there is very little point in judging another person's character on the basis of a few minutes of their life, whether on court or in an interview or... whatever. This is especially the case if we have never exchanged a word with the person in question.

sartrista7
Feb 20th, 2004, 07:53 PM
Why did you list her victories over the WS from 97 and 98??

Because Sarah asked what she had done since the USO '97. Both her victories over Venus and Serena came since then.

DeDe4925
Feb 20th, 2004, 08:02 PM
Those who are fans of tennis as a sport will remember how players played, the shots they could hit which thrilled us. Those who possess the ability to relate to other human beings will see that there is very little point in judging another person's character on the basis of a few minutes of their life, whether on court or in an interview or... whatever. This is especially the case if we have never exchanged a word with the person in question.
The study of Sociology tells us what you say is far from the truth. No matter how much good a person has done in their life, if the last impression of that person was one of public embarrassment, humiliation or the committment of a wrongful act to another, whether actual or perceived, that is what that person will be remembered for. I'm sure a lot of people loved OJ Simpson for his fabulous football career, but what will he be remembered for, even to fans of FOOTBALL as a sport? Unfortunately, we are not all as blessed as you to be above the fray of human fraility and weaknesses to relate to other human beings to see that there is no point in judging another's character on the basis of a few minutes of their life, especially when we have never exchanged a word with the person. If we could all be like you, society as a whole would be a better place. I applaud you for your perfection of life. :)

Knizzle
Feb 20th, 2004, 08:04 PM
Because Sarah asked what she had done since the USO '97. Both her victories over Venus and Serena came since then.

Why would beating the sisters in 97 and 98 be a career accomplishment?? :scratch:

minboy
Feb 20th, 2004, 08:10 PM
hate to pick on you, but people still mention what Spirlea did in 97, and what has she done since? :)

there is a différence between "wtaworld posters" and people in my mind.

I 've been following tennis since 2000, and i never heard of spirlea before visiting wta official board and this one. It means that tennis fans, real tennis fans don't pay attention to this kind of details. And people here who keep mentionning it ( once over a year maybe) do so because it seems as it was more funny than anything else. Besides, spirlea has never one a slam or anything really big, so there is not so much to remember about her except that incident. Anyway, it doesn't seem to me that peole are bashing her for that.

DeDe4925
Feb 20th, 2004, 08:12 PM
there is a différence between "wtaworld posters" and people in my mind.

I 've been following tennis since 2000, and i never heard of spirlea before visiting wta official board and this one. It means that tennis fans, real tennis fans don't pay attention to this kind of details. And people here who keep mentionning it ( once over a year maybe) do so because it seems as it was more funny than anything else. Besides, spirlea has never one a slam or anything really big, so there is not so much to remember about her except that incident. Anyway, it doesn't seem to me that peole are bashing her for that.
So, since you have over 400 posts here, I guess you're not a "people" in your mind. :lol:

minboy
Feb 20th, 2004, 08:14 PM
The study of Sociology tells us what you say is far from the truth. No matter how much good a person has done in their life, if the last impression of that person was one of public embarrassment, humiliation or the committment of a wrongful act to another, whether actual or perceived, that is what that person will be remembered for. I'm sure a lot of people loved OJ Simpson for his fabulous football career, but what will he be remembered for, even to fans of FOOTBALL as a sport? Unfortunately, we are not all as blessed as you to be above the fray of human fraility and weaknesses to relate to other human beings to see that there is no point in judging another's character on the basis of a few minutes of their life, especially when we have never exchanged a word with the person. If we could all be like you, society as a whole would be a better place. I applaud you for your perfection of life. :)what you say about people remembering one aspect of the life of somebody might be true, but is it fair?
Would you like being remembered for the worst thing you have ever done, letting besides all the great things you've done? Would you think it is fair?

minboy
Feb 20th, 2004, 08:15 PM
So, since you have over 400 posts here, I guess you're not a "people" in your mind. :lol:
I can make the difference between life on this board and real life, doesn't mean i can't be part of both

sartrista7
Feb 20th, 2004, 08:16 PM
Why would beating the sisters in 97 and 98 be a career accomplishment?? :scratch:

Are you suggesting that they are not very good players? Beating a girl who got to the USO final at her first attempt, and one who beat three top ten players in her second ever WTA main draw - after both of those achievements - is fairly impressive. Venus and Serena are great players, ergo beating them is an accomplishment to be proud of.

I concur that more people should be like me, DeMond.

minboy's phrasing may have been strange, but there are very few GM posters I'd willingly go for a drink with.

DeDe4925
Feb 20th, 2004, 08:18 PM
what you say about people remembering one aspect of the life of somebody might be true, but is it fair?
Would you like being remembered for the worst thing you have ever done, letting besides all the great things you've done? Would you think it is fair?
LOL, of course not, but I can't control society and how people think and act. Life is not fair. There is good and bad, we all just have to deal with it and try to be good people in spite of it.
You know what, this is :topic: , so I have said my last on this subject. Have a nice day. :wavey:

DeDe4925
Feb 20th, 2004, 08:19 PM
I can make the difference between life on this board and real life, doesn't mean i can't be part of both
And I'm sure everyone else can here also. I really don't see anything about you that makes you special above the rest that post here.

minboy
Feb 20th, 2004, 08:22 PM
LOL, of course not, but I can't control society and how people think and act. Life is not fair. There is good and bad, we all just have to deal with it and try to be good people in spite of it.
You know what, this is :topic: , so I have said my last on this subject. Have a nice day. :wavey:All right, so let injustice control the world and let us being OK with it ! What a great philosophy!!! There would still be slaves nowadays with people like you thinking "This is not fair, but whatever!"

HAVE a nice day too:wavey:

minboy
Feb 20th, 2004, 08:27 PM
And I'm sure everyone else can here also. I really don't see anything about you that makes you special above the rest that post here.
well, i have my doubts about posters here making the difference between real life an this board's life, for example when some say "the whole world hates Justine", while about 95% of the world doesn't even know who she is . Just an example off course.

And no, i'm not above the rest of people. But, as on every single boards on the internet, this one is visited by 75% of morons ( didn't say you were part of them ) and 25% of growns up, people you can have a serious and HONEST discussion with. I consider myself part of the 25%

GOODBYE:wavey: :wavey:

PreOp
Feb 20th, 2004, 08:52 PM
I'm confused :scratch: are you defending Justine, or saying that what she did was wrong? I think you're riding the fence.

Secondly, I was not under the impression that people who brought a "glass half full" to the game could receive the seemingly unobtainable rank of No. 1 and 2 in a tour of hundreds of players. I never thought that people who didn't bring their "A" game could attain a total of 10 Grand Slams and three gold medals between them. I never thought that Reebok and Nike would offer 40 and 50 million dollar contracts to people who played half-ass, and I'm not even counting the numerous other endorsements. Hmmm, but let's see Justine who got her ass whipped in straight sets by a person who brought a glass half full to Wimbledon. What does that say about the skills and athleticism Justine brings to the table? I wonder if that was one day she DIDN'T put it all on the line for her fans. I guess that was one day Justine didn't have a passion for winning. :lol:

My dear Pre-Op, your post is at the very least :bs:

Your point is well received.

I didn't mean "half full" as a knock on the Williams sisters. I only meant that they are much more than tennis players. The same cannot be said for Henin.

I consider Henin's gamesmanship a detriment to Tennis, and I would not like it if Tennis went the way of Football, Basketball and Baseball. This said I don't hate or despise her. I enjoy her game. Thankfully her gamemansship is not 24/7.

Actually Venus is by far my favorite of the current crop of women, and Serena runs a close second. My difference with you is that I am only half (half full again?) the fan you are.

minboy
Feb 20th, 2004, 09:02 PM
Your point is well received.

I didn't mean "half full" as a knock on the Williams sisters. I only meant that they are much more than tennis players. The same cannot be said for Henin.

I consider Henin's gamesmanship a detriment to Tennis, and I would not like it if Tennis went the way of Football, Basketball and Baseball. This said I don't hate or despise her. I enjoy her game. Thankfully her gamemansship is not 24/7.

Actually Venus is by far my favorite of the current crop of women, and Serena runs a close second. My difference with you is that I am only half (half full again?) the fan you are.The problem being : except for 2 seconds in 1 match ( over 400 matches she has played ), she has never displayed gamesmanship. Now i can expect your answers : she called a ball out. Big Deal:rolleyes: . She takes tactic time out...well off course, if you want to believe other players 's lies, she does, but if you try to look things objectively ( oops....i think i'm asking for too much here ), she doesn't.

The thing is : people remember what they want to remember, and forget what they want to forget. No need to say they will only remember the facts that fits their "already made" theory

DeDe4925
Feb 20th, 2004, 09:04 PM
All right, so let injustice control the world and let us being OK with it ! What a great philosophy!!! There would still be slaves nowadays with people like you thinking "This is not fair, but whatever!"

HAVE a nice day too:wavey:
What???!!! :confused:
There IS injustice in the world, but there is also good. Don't put words in my mouth. It is not my philosphy that it's okay for injustice to control the world. LOL, I come from an ancestry of fighters of injustice. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. But, you have to pick your battles to be able to come back and fight another day. Jeez, do you just want to disagree and argue with me or do you just not understand what I'm saying?

minboy
Feb 20th, 2004, 09:11 PM
What???!!! :confused:
There IS injustice in the world, but there is also good. Don't put words in my mouth. It is not my philosphy that it's okay for injustice to control the world. LOL, I come from an ancestry of fighters of injustice. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. But, you have to pick your battles to be able to come back and fight another day. Jeez, do you just want to disagree and argue with me or do you just not understand what I'm saying?
when you say "life isn't fair, but we have to deal with it" , it doesn't seem like you want to change something about it. Make your opinion clear first, otherwise there is a chance you'll get misunderstood

DeDe4925
Feb 20th, 2004, 09:17 PM
when you say "life isn't fair, but we have to deal with it" , it doesn't seem like you want to change something about it. Make your opinion clear first, otherwise there is a chance you'll get misunderstood
English is not your first language is it? :p I'll try to speak slower next time.

minboy
Feb 20th, 2004, 09:35 PM
English is not your first language is it? :p I'll try to speak slower next time.
No need to speak slower, being clear will be enough;)

BTW, i'm really really sorry for trying to speak and understand a language that's not my first language:rolleyes: :rolleyes: . I'll try to do it better next time.....:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

*JR*
Feb 20th, 2004, 10:16 PM
Your point is well received.

I didn't mean "half full" as a knock on the Williams sisters. I only meant that they are much more than tennis players. The same cannot be said for Henin.

I consider Henin's gamesmanship a detriment to Tennis, and I would not like it if Tennis went the way of Football, Basketball and Baseball. This said I don't hate or despise her. I enjoy her game. Thankfully her gamemansship is not 24/7.

Actually Venus is by far my favorite of the current crop of women, and Serena runs a close second. My difference with you is that I am only half (half full again?) the fan you are.
Venus has also used gamesmanship; specifically, hitting full-force to Jen in pre-match warmups back in ('01 I think). And re. Demond's sarcasm about miniboy's English:

1) It's fine (better than Bush, Though That's not hard). :p
2) Even If It weren't, we Americans need to check our arrogance! :rolleyes:

Knizzle
Feb 20th, 2004, 11:08 PM
Venus has also used gamesmanship; specifically, hitting full-force to Jen in pre-match warmups back in ('01 I think). And re. Demond's sarcasm about miniboy's English:

1) It's fine (better than Bush, Though That's not hard). :p
2) Even If It weren't, we Americans need to check our arrogance! :rolleyes:

You have to come up with something better than this JollyRoger. Hitting full force in warmups?? Was Venus grunting also?? :rolleyes:

Knizzle
Feb 20th, 2004, 11:09 PM
The problem being : except for 2 seconds in 1 match ( over 400 matches she has played ), she has never displayed gamesmanship. Now i can expect your answers : she called a ball out. Big Deal:rolleyes: . She takes tactic time out...well off course, if you want to believe other players 's lies, she does, but if you try to look things objectively ( oops....i think i'm asking for too much here ), she doesn't.

The thing is : people remember what they want to remember, and forget what they want to forget. No need to say they will only remember the facts that fits their "already made" theory

Justine does take tactical timeouts. To believe otherwise is to be naive IMHO.

DeDe4925
Feb 20th, 2004, 11:17 PM
No need to speak slower, being clear will be enough;)

BTW, i'm really really sorry for trying to speak and understand a language that's not my first language:rolleyes: :rolleyes: . I'll try to do it better next time.....:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Well, it's been a long time since I had to be clear to someone with the comprehensive capacity of a 2 year old. But, I'll try ;)

DeDe4925
Feb 20th, 2004, 11:19 PM
Venus has also used gamesmanship; specifically, hitting full-force to Jen in pre-match warmups back in ('01 I think). And re. Demond's sarcasm about miniboy's English:

1) It's fine (better than Bush, Though That's not hard). :p
2) Even If It weren't, we Americans need to check our arrogance! :rolleyes:
1) I'm not a Bush lover by no means. Don't think everyone who is American loves Bush.
2) Arrogance has nothing to do with it. I think he should have been more clear to me about his level of comprehension. :rolleyes:

DeDe4925
Feb 20th, 2004, 11:21 PM
Venus has also used gamesmanship; specifically, hitting full-force to Jen in pre-match warmups back in ('01 I think). And re. Demond's sarcasm about miniboy's English:

1) It's fine (better than Bush, Though That's not hard). :p
2) Even If It weren't, we Americans need to check our arrogance! :rolleyes:
Oh, and since when is anything in pre-match warm-up considered gamesmanship. :lol:
That takes the cake. You Williams' haters will come up with anything...and SAY anything. Sheesh :rolleyes:

DeDe4925
Feb 20th, 2004, 11:23 PM
You have to come up with something better than this JollyRoger. Hitting full force in warmups?? Was Venus grunting also?? :rolleyes:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

SerenaSlam
Feb 20th, 2004, 11:32 PM
justine is getting hounded b/c there is no williams sister on the tour right now to recieve all the criticism

this should not be a :eek: :eek: :eek: to anyone!

faste5683
Feb 20th, 2004, 11:38 PM
justine is getting hounded b/c there is no williams sister on the tour right now to recieve all the criticism

this should not be a :eek: :eek: :eek: to anyone!

Short and sweet! Thank you!! :wavey:

How do I give positive rep points?

*JR*
Feb 21st, 2004, 12:35 AM
Oh, and since when is anything in pre-match warm-up considered gamesmanship. :lol:
That takes the cake. You Williams' haters will come up with anything...and SAY anything. Sheesh :rolleyes:
I've been called many things (inc. a n***** lover) in my life, but a "Williams hater" isn't one of them! (Nor did I say you like Bush, it was a joke meant to underline how good miniboy's English is).

Dede42
Feb 21st, 2004, 12:45 AM
I've been called many things (inc. a n***** lover) in my life, but a "Williams hater" isn't one of them! (Nor did I say you like Bush, it was a joke meant to underline how good miniboy's English is).
Okay, sorry...my mistake. Mea Culpa, LOL :)

Martian Willow
Feb 21st, 2004, 12:48 AM
justine is getting hounded b/c there is no williams sister on the tour right now to recieve all the criticism

this should not be a :eek: :eek: :eek: to anyone!

...this conveniently ignores the fact that for the most part it's sisters fans who are doing the hounding... :)

SJW
Feb 21st, 2004, 02:37 AM
...this conveniently ignores the fact that for the most part it's sisters fans who are doing the hounding... :)
not true......a lot of Jen fans seem to have beef with Justine too (for what reason i do not know)

minboy
Feb 21st, 2004, 12:36 PM
Well, it has been a long time since i had to be clear to someone with the comprehensive capacity of a 2 year old. But I'll try
DeMond, t'es vraiment le plus gros blairerau que j'ai jamais rencontré sur le Net. Non-content de faire preuve d'une arrogance propre aux yankees, tu ne semble même pas capable d'imaginer qu'il puiss exister sur cette terre des gens pour qui l'anglais n'est pas la langue maternelle, et qui ne s'en portent pas plus mal pour la cause. La diiférence, c'est que , eux non seulement font l'effort pour parler une langue qui n'est pas la leur, mais en plus le font volontier, considérant très bien qu ' apprendre une langue que l'on ne connait pas est une preuve d'ouverture aux autres. Une ouverture dont le principe même te semble étranger, cela va de soi.
Hier, j'ai dit que ce forum était composé de 75% de blaireaux, et de seulement 25% de personnes matures. Je maintiens mes propos. Par contre, j'ai eu la maladresse de dire que tu ne faisais, selon moi, pas partie des 25% de gros cons. Je tiens à m'excuser dès à présent pour cette grossière erreur, et m'engage ici même à ne plus la commettre.
Monsieur, avec tous les égards dus à votre rang, je vous emmerde.

I' m sorry, maybe i have to speak slower for you to understand. I mean, it isn't everyday that i have to deal with someone who has got comprehensive skills of a 2 year old

faste5683
Feb 21st, 2004, 01:17 PM
DeMond, t'es vraiment le plus gros blairerau que j'ai jamais rencontré sur le Net. Non-content de faire preuve d'une arrogance propre aux yankees, tu ne semble même pas capable d'imaginer qu'il puiss exister sur cette terre des gens pour qui l'anglais n'est pas la langue maternelle, et qui ne s'en portent pas plus mal pour la cause. La diiférence, c'est que , eux non seulement font l'effort pour parler une langue qui n'est pas la leur, mais en plus le font volontier, considérant très bien qu ' apprendre une langue que l'on ne connait pas est une preuve d'ouverture aux autres. Une ouverture dont le principe même te semble étranger, cela va de soi.
Hier, j'ai dit que ce forum était composé de 75% de blaireaux, et de seulement 25% de personnes matures. Je maintiens mes propos. Par contre, j'ai eu la maladresse de dire que tu ne faisais, selon moi, pas partie des 25% de gros cons. Je tiens à m'excuser dès à présent pour cette grossière erreur, et m'engage ici même à ne plus la commettre.
Monsieur, avec tous les égards dus à votre rang, je vous emmerde.


Let's see if I can dust off my high school French. You said: " I am going to the store to buy bread, a wrench, and a Frisbee."

:unsure:

How'd I do?

:wavey:

Dede42
Feb 23rd, 2004, 04:21 AM
Let's see if I can dust off my high school French. You said: " I am going to the store to buy bread, a wrench, and a Frisbee."

:unsure:

How'd I do?

:wavey:
:haha::haha::haha:

Dede42
Feb 23rd, 2004, 05:11 AM
DeMond, t'es vraiment le plus gros blairerau que j'ai jamais rencontré sur le Net. Non-content de faire preuve d'une arrogance propre aux yankees, tu ne semble même pas capable d'imaginer qu'il puiss exister sur cette terre des gens pour qui l'anglais n'est pas la langue maternelle, et qui ne s'en portent pas plus mal pour la cause. La diiférence, c'est que , eux non seulement font l'effort pour parler une langue qui n'est pas la leur, mais en plus le font volontier, considérant très bien qu ' apprendre une langue que l'on ne connait pas est une preuve d'ouverture aux autres. Une ouverture dont le principe même te semble étranger, cela va de soi.
Hier, j'ai dit que ce forum était composé de 75% de blaireaux, et de seulement 25% de personnes matures. Je maintiens mes propos. Par contre, j'ai eu la maladresse de dire que tu ne faisais, selon moi, pas partie des 25% de gros cons. Je tiens à m'excuser dès à présent pour cette grossière erreur, et m'engage ici même à ne plus la commettre.
Monsieur, avec tous les égards dus à votre rang, je vous emmerde.

I' m sorry, maybe i have to speak slower for you to understand. I mean, it isn't everyday that i have to deal with someone who has got comprehensive skills of a 2 year old
Well let this two year old see whether I can translate what you are saying.
You said, that I was the biggest badger(??) that you've ever seen on the net. That I'm an arrogant Yankee who does not seem to get what it's like to speak English when it's not your first language. That not only do you make an effort to speak a language that is not yours, but you do it voluntarily, considering very well that to learn a language which one does not know is proof of your opening up(?) to others. An opening(?) that is foreign to me. You said yesterday that this forum was composed of 75% badgers and 25% of mature people. You maintain your remarks. On the other hand, you find it difficult to say that I did not form, in your opinon, part of the 25% of big idiots. You now want us to excuse you for this gross error and you are more encouraged to make it, i.e. you've changed your mind about me not being one of the 25%. BTW, I am a woman, not a man.

I agree that I was being a smart-ass to you, but you have to agree that you kept the argument going. I didn't mean to insult your intelligence. Also, I probably am arrogant about my language, but so are the French in France. It is very hard to translate what someone is saying. I have to admit that your english is better than my french, because there are some french words such as "emmerde" that I don't know. I don't know if there is a word for it in english. Also, I don't know what you mean by "row". So, needless to say, I was completely lost by your last sentence. Kudos, you made your point. My apologies. BTW, I am far from the 25%, regardless of your opinion of me.

emptyhead
Feb 23rd, 2004, 01:21 PM
I personally do not like her on court antics, of injury time-outs, to knock another player off stride but, come on!
Jesus,Mary & Josef! You would think she had burned down an orphanage reading what some people think of her

flyingmachine
Feb 23rd, 2004, 03:09 PM
I' m sorry, maybe i have to speak slower for you to understand. I mean, it isn't everyday that i have to deal with someone who has got comprehensive skills of a 2 year old
I know what you feel minboy I speak Chinese with a English accsent and
don't understand some of the difficult words. I went to Hong Kong a few years ago people always ask me weather I was an American or somthing beacuse I don't speak like the locals.

Martian KC
Feb 23rd, 2004, 04:49 PM
When and why did Justine become so despised?
When she started kicking serena's ass and because the willifans couldn't take it.

DeDe4925
Feb 23rd, 2004, 05:28 PM
When and why did Justine become so despised?
When she started kicking serena's ass and because the willifans couldn't take it.
:lol: Damn and all this time I thought it was Serena that whipped Justine's ass up and down, sideways and back and forth in straight sets at Wimbledon, the last time they played. She got her ass beat so bad, I thought she was going to cry. :lol: Hmm, now I realize it was Justine all along that won Wimbledon in a Serena suit.

:wavey:

DeDe4925
Feb 23rd, 2004, 06:53 PM
:haha: :haha: :haha:
Maybe something is lost in the translation, but to call me trouble is that funny to you?? :scratch:

faste5683
Feb 23rd, 2004, 10:35 PM
Maybe something is lost in the translation, but to call me trouble is that funny to you?? :scratch:

Sweetheart: you're trouble with a capital "T". Of course, I
happen to like it that way. :hug:

:wavey:

DeDe4925
Feb 23rd, 2004, 10:43 PM
Sweetheart: you're trouble with a capital "T". Of course, I
happen to like it that way. :hug:

:wavey:
wish there was a blusin' smiley, lol :kiss:

Joana
Feb 23rd, 2004, 10:46 PM
Is this going to become a chat thread. It sure is on its way! :bounce: