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shap_half
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:12 PM
Ok, here's a thought that kinda bounce off that whole, "What makes Justine best on clay?" thread.

On clay, I think everyone can agree that there really is noone better than justine. if that's not a premise that you agree with then you don't need to continue. but if justine is best on clay (better than either williams) because on clay the williams' power is neutralized, then is it true that what makes the williams so hard to beat is really just their power? I mean if you take away the Williams power then what else do they really have going for them? I'm not trying to knock Venus or Serena, but if you look at that line of reasoning that Justine is the best on clay coz power is not an issue, but outside of clay, Justine is often third behind Venus and Serena because the power is sometimes too much then really Venus and Serena's games are very one dimensional.

bandabou
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:18 PM
Justine is the best on clay, but not by much really. Both Venus and specially Serena have all the tools to be good on clay. The difference between them and Justine is that Justine is contend to go the rally, while specially Serena doesn´t have the patience for that. In ´02 she became more controlled and look what she did during the clay-season. same happened during RG´03...when she was patient, there wasn´t much Justine could do to hurt her.

And no it ain´t just the power, Lindsay has power, Monica has power, Bovina has power..it´s the total package. Defense, offense, great-serving,forehand, backhand all solid: specially for Serena. Really if you think about Serena´s the one player out there who´s got the least weaknesses.

flyingmachine
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:18 PM
Ok, here's a thought that kinda bounce off that whole, "What makes Justine best on clay?" thread.

On clay, I think everyone can agree that there really is noone better than justine. if that's not a premise that you agree with then you don't need to continue. but if justine is best on clay (better than either williams) because on clay the williams' power is neutralized, then is it true that what makes the williams so hard to beat is really just their power? I mean if you take away the Williams power then what else do they really have going for them? I'm not trying to knock Venus or Serena, but if you look at that line of reasoning that Justine is the best on clay coz power is not an issue, but outside of clay, Justine is often third behind Venus and Serena because the power is sometimes too much then really Venus and Serena's games are very one dimensional.

True ;)

AjdeNate!
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:20 PM
Movement and ability to slide into your shots is the key. Look at the great (multiple) RG Champs.... all fluid into their slides.

Knizzle
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:23 PM
Ok, here's a thought that kinda bounce off that whole, "What makes Justine best on clay?" thread.

On clay, I think everyone can agree that there really is noone better than justine. if that's not a premise that you agree with then you don't need to continue. but if justine is best on clay (better than either williams) because on clay the williams' power is neutralized, then is it true that what makes the williams so hard to beat is really just their power? I mean if you take away the Williams power then what else do they really have going for them? I'm not trying to knock Venus or Serena, but if you look at that line of reasoning that Justine is the best on clay coz power is not an issue, but outside of clay, Justine is often third behind Venus and Serena because the power is sometimes too much then really Venus and Serena's games are very one dimensional.

This is not true. Yes the power helps, but you just have to know how to play on each surface. Your game has to change. Unfortunately for the sisters the clay is the surface that they have figured out the least. You have to slide also on clay with neither sister(particularly Venus) does well. You have to get used to the higher bounces and get the timing right. It's all about preference. Since Justine likes to slide around and needs the extra time to prepare her shots, she is more confident. Not to mention that she grew up on clay. Would you also say this about Juan Carlos Ferrero?? The sisters can beat Justine on clay, they just have to be patient. Justine has to find a way to compete on hard and grass, where there are TRUE dominant players.

JustineTime
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:24 PM
Winner/UE ratio is key for both sisters. Their power plays into this, because they "go for" their shots, which results in a fair number of errors. Clay magnifies this because the slow surface makes it harder for them to hit clean winners, esp. against someone as quick about the court as Justine, so if they're not patient and willing to hit a few extra balls until they can force an advantage, the UE's mount up and at the end of the day, Justine makes them pay! ;)

:)

Crazy_Fool
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:28 PM
Ok, here's a thought that kinda bounce off that whole, "What makes Justine best on clay?" thread.

On clay, I think everyone can agree that there really is noone better than justine. if that's not a premise that you agree with then you don't need to continue. but if justine is best on clay (better than either williams) because on clay the williams' power is neutralized, then is it true that what makes the williams so hard to beat is really just their power? I mean if you take away the Williams power then what else do they really have going for them? I'm not trying to knock Venus or Serena, but if you look at that line of reasoning that Justine is the best on clay coz power is not an issue, but outside of clay, Justine is often third behind Venus and Serena because the power is sometimes too much then really Venus and Serena's games are very one dimensional.
My friend :worship: . I'm always saying this, it is about power. Take the power away and Justine is the best.

bandabou
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:30 PM
My friend :worship: . I'm always saying this, it is about power. Take the power away and Justine is the best.

Nope...power is part of the equation, but not ALL of it.

QUEENLINDSAY
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:31 PM
I Think its more of a motivation to play on a certain surface.
I dont think its power or anything. Its the way u like the surface.
Aparently I dont think Justine is winning with no power on her game, Its actually she adjusted her game to have more power to be more succesfull, Look at her serve speeds!!!!

I dont really believed that a player is better on this or that surface. I believed its the way a player feel comfortably on that surface. If you grew up on that surface then your more ease to play there.

See pierce as an example, she uses her power to win the French. I dont think she is a great mover.

LindsayRulez
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:32 PM
Justine has also turned herself into quite a power player, not as much as the big hitters (Venus, Serena, Lindsay, Jennifer), but she would definitely be hurting on the clay without her power as well.

Knizzle
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:37 PM
I Think its more of a motivation to play on a certain surface.
I dont think its power or anything. Its the way u like the surface.
Aparently I dont think Justine is winning with no power on her game, Its actually she adjusted her game to have more power to be more succesfull, Look at her serve speeds!!!!

I dont really believed that a player is better on this or that surface. I believed its the way a player feel comfortably on that surface. If you grew up on that surface then your more ease to play there.

See pierce as an example, she uses her power to win the French. I dont think she is a great mover.
I Agree.

bandabou
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:39 PM
I Think its more of a motivation to play on a certain surface.
I dont think its power or anything. Its the way u like the surface.
Aparently I dont think Justine is winning with no power on her game, Its actually she adjusted her game to have more power to be more succesfull, Look at her serve speeds!!!!

I dont really believed that a player is better on this or that surface. I believed its the way a player feel comfortably on that surface. If you grew up on that surface then your more ease to play there.

See pierce as an example, she uses her power to win the French. I dont think she is a great mover.

Exactly....Justine prefers clay, while the sisters like hardcourts better. They have shown that they can play with and beat ANYBODY on ANY surface....so it ain´t about power anymore.

Crazy_Fool
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:40 PM
Nope...power is part of the equation, but not ALL of it.
a large percentage mind.....

SJW
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:41 PM
My friend :worship: . I'm always saying this, it is about power. Take the power away and Justine is the best.
k so take Justine's shots away and what does she have?:confused:

i reckon it's a stupid point really.

bandabou
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:42 PM
a large percentage mind.....

But who shouldn´t she be losing to Kim( specially), Jen, Lindsay, etc too then?! All of them are as if not more powerful than either sister, no?!

dreamgoddess099
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:42 PM
You people are truely sick. Power is a part of being an athlete and athleticism is a part of sport. No excuses! If you have to help someone by taking something away from their opponents in order for them to be the best, then they are not the best. Hell, I'm a better player than Justine if you take away her racquet. Does that mean I'm better than her? No! If Justine is supposedly so superior to Serena on clay, then why does she struggle against her so on that surface. Serena doesn't struggle against Justine on her best surfaces. Tennis is a sport and in all sport power and athleticism are important. Why do you think Justine tries so hard to improve hers?

SJW
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:42 PM
it's all mental. she's european, grown up on the stuff.

however the sisters are good enough to beat her on her best surface...and they have....

other way around? um....

starr
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:47 PM
I think the footwork on the clay is what is missing for Venus and Serena.

It isn't just sliding, its the tiny steps too. Justine has beautiful feet on the court. Chris Evert and Steffi Graf aslo had beautiful footwork. Neither Serena or Venus have this really superior footwork. They make up for it in other ways, but it hurts them on clay.

Crazy_Fool
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:51 PM
But who shouldn´t she be losing to Kim( specially), Jen, Lindsay, etc too then?! All of them are as if not more powerful than either sister, no?!
Kim is a choker and the rest are really not in the same league. Tennis ability comes first but power comes a close second.

Freewoman33
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:51 PM
Power alone doesn’t win you matches, if that were the case than Lucic(sp) would been one of the best players today. People often forget that actually physical ability is a 10 percent sport, and the rest is mental and being able to think out there.

Venus and Serena can definitely compete with Justine, Kim and Jennifer on clay. However, Justine is the best on clay currently. This is mostly attributed to her patience and variety of her shots. I think Amelie, when she’s not being a head case, can challenge anyone on any surface.

Your argument is mute and has no base whatsoever.

bandabou
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:54 PM
Kim is a choker and the rest are really not in the same league. Tennis ability comes first but power comes a close second.

So...the sisters DO posses some tennis-skills now, huh?! Interesting...

Crazy_Fool
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:58 PM
So...the sisters DO posses some tennis-skills now, huh?! Interesting...
Of course they do.....there is no way u can win slams without having tennis skills - ever known a player to do it?!

ys
Feb 16th, 2004, 10:00 PM
but if justine is best on clay (better than either williams) because on clay the williams' power is neutralized
It is not only that. Clay doesn't neutralise the power. When Seles was in top form or Pierce would be in her zone, nothing could neutralise that power. It pretty much neutralises lack of footspeed, and therefore very quick players, like Williamses or, say, Hewitt, lose that important advantage. And it exposes technical flaws in shot-making.

bandabou
Feb 16th, 2004, 10:00 PM
Of course they do.....there is no way u can win slams without having tennis skills - ever known a player to do it?!

So the thesis of this thread really is senseless?!

QUEENLINDSAY
Feb 16th, 2004, 10:00 PM
Its just a set of mind. No one is really better on any surface. You can play and adjust your type of game on any surface.

I can say Lindsay for example. I think she set her mind on 1999and 1998 RG that she really wants to play on clay, its just not her year, she was beaten in a quarters 3 set tight match by the eventual champion Steffi. She got injured at 2000 and 2001 and did'nt play in 2002 and eventually lose interest on playing clay. She loves to play on Carpet and thus showing her results there, pity theres no GS indoors.

My point is, Lindsay is a power player and not a great mover but its no reason for her not to win RG if she wants to. The question is, does she really wants to play on clay anymore?

As for Justine, I cannot tell that she is the best clay courter yet, Well she is the most comfortable player on clay court. Aparently Justine wins 3 GS in 3 different surfaces because she decided to add more power to her game and she believes she can do it. Her mind is into it.

Serena played 2002 like a monster so the court surface does'nt come into mind. She wants to win that year so she gots it.

I STILL BELIEVED that its something more on the mind first then seconded by the talent and ability. Afterall they are the best players in the world in their their own time thus, they have the ability to win on any surfaces. You can use power, slices, spins on any court.

Knizzle
Feb 16th, 2004, 10:01 PM
I think the real question is would we be talking about this if Justine hadn't won the French?? And we all know HOW she won the French. (no BS replies required)

SJW
Feb 16th, 2004, 10:03 PM
Its just a set of mind. No one is really better on any surface. You can play and adjust your type of game on any surface.

I can say Lindsay for example. I think she set her mind on 1999and 1998 RG that she really wants to play on clay, its just not her year, she was beaten in a quarters 3 set tight match by the eventual champion Steffi. She got injured at 2000 and 2001 and did'nt play in 2002 and eventually lose interest on playing clay. She loves to play on Carpet and thus showing her results there, pity theres no GS indoors.

My point is, Lindsay is a power player and not a great mover but its no reason for her not to win RG if she wants to. The question is, does she really wants to play on clay anymore?

As for Justine, I cannot tell that she is the best clay courter yet, Well she is the most comfortable player on clay court. Aparently Justine wins 3 GS in 3 different surfaces because she decided to add more power to her game and she believes she can do it. Her mind is into it.

Serena played 2002 like a monster so the court surface does'nt come into mind. She wants to win that year so she gots it.

I STILL BELIEVED that its something more on the mind first then seconded by the talent and ability. Afterall they are the best players in the world in their their own time thus, they have the ability to win on any surfaces. You can use power, slices, spins on any court.
wow, good post i have to say ;)

QUEENLINDSAY
Feb 16th, 2004, 10:05 PM
wow, good post i have to say ;)
thanks:hearts:

Crazy_Fool
Feb 16th, 2004, 10:07 PM
So the thesis of this thread really is senseless?!
Well maybe but there is nothing wrong with saying the williams sisters are one-dimensional. Roddick, for example is, and he is one of the best players out there. People perceive him as being untalented as well when both are actual BS.

QUEENLINDSAY
Feb 16th, 2004, 10:18 PM
Well maybe but there is nothing wrong with saying the williams sisters are one-dimensional. Roddick, for example is, and he is one of the best players out there. People perceive him as being untalented as well when both are actual BS.When a player does the same strategy everytime does'nt mean its the only thing she can do. If u uses your power very often, its because it works for your game. Why change you game of style if your winning with it?

Rodick is not a comparizon and is actually a true example of one dimensional game. Men this boy is surely just capitalizing on his big serves. Unless he won other slams convincingly specially on a slow surface then he is not.

Williams,Davenport, Etc, are power hitters and big servers and most of the time relying on it but its effective on them on most of the surface.

hey, I'm not a williams fan yet, just trying to defend power game which my fave actually doing it best.

ITS JUST NOT POWER!!!!!!!

faste5683
Feb 16th, 2004, 10:23 PM
I Think its more of a motivation to play on a certain surface.

I dont really believed that a player is better on this or that surface. I believed its the way a player feel comfortably on that surface. If you grew up on that surface then your more ease to play there.

So, in other words, if you're comfortable, AND playing on a surface that you
grew up on, you won't play *better* on that particular surface? :confused:

:wavey:

QUEENLINDSAY
Feb 16th, 2004, 11:48 PM
So, in other words, if you're comfortable, AND playing on a surface that you
grew up on, you won't play *better* on that particular surface? :confused:

:wavey:
Who said that?? If that the way u interpret that simple english then I cant help you anymore.

Rtael
Feb 16th, 2004, 11:57 PM
I think the real question is would we be talking about this if Justine hadn't won the French?? And we all know HOW she won the French. (no BS replies required)

Being the best clay-court player in the world? :scratch:

CinnamoninCinema
Feb 17th, 2004, 12:16 AM
Please, people. The Williams sisters are about more than just hard hitting. Is that the basis of their game? Probably ... but their lightning speed is just as important a weapon.

cheesestix
Feb 17th, 2004, 12:46 AM
Pay attention, please, people!

The point that people time and again try to get across is that "power is the difference". The key word is "difference." People need to get that through their thick skulls!

Williams fans always come back with "well, there's more to their game than power". Well, duh, nobody said power was ALL they had, just that it is the "difference." In other words, all other things being equal, it is the power that gives Venus and Serena the advantage.

Sure, Lindsay has power, but she lacks other things.

Venus and Serena have more than just power, but it's the power that makes the difference. Let it sink in, people!

It's not that difficult to understand. You Williams fans need to quit being so defensive and try paying attention to what is said and drop the knee-jerk reactions.

Couver
Feb 17th, 2004, 12:47 AM
I think at the end of the day no player really cares what type of game they have be it variety or power or whatever. I'm pretty sure the 3 players being talked about are pretty content counting their prize money and the GSs' they have been able to win with whatever game they play.

Stefwhit
Feb 17th, 2004, 01:13 AM
...I dont really believed that a player is better on this or that surface. I believed its the way a player feel comfortably on that surface. If you grew up on that surface then your more ease to play there.

See pierce as an example, she uses her power to win the French. I dont think she is a great mover.
Well said, when looking at how a player performs on a certain surface- of course one has to consider the players comfort level on that surface, among other things. Justine grew up on clay and her dream was to someday win the French- no wonder she plays well on that surface. Certain surfaces bring out the best in your game and others bring out the worse. Then there are a few players like Serena and Steffi who are able to adjust there games accordingly- these players will find success on any and all surfaces. In regards to Serena she's figured out what she needs to do to be succesful on clay and if she isn't considered the best on clay she has to be considered among the best (other wise I'm at a lost as to what criteria one would use, after all she did win the French). I'm aware that even players who aren't comfortable on a surface can still have success- Conchita would be a good example. There's also players that learn overtime to play on other surfaces there not as comfortable on. Kim says her least favorite surface is clay but she does pretty good from what I can see.

You people are truely sick. Power is a part of being an athlete and athleticism is a part of sport. No excuses! If you have to help someone by taking something away from their opponents in order for them to be the best, then they are not the best. Hell, I'm a better player than Justine if you take away her racquet. Does that mean I'm better than her? No! If Justine is supposedly so superior to Serena on clay, then why does she struggle against her so on that surface. Serena doesn't struggle against Justine on her best surfaces. Tennis is a sport and in all sport power and athleticism are important. Why do you think Justine tries so hard to improve hers?
Great post! People act as is Vee or Serena should be ashamed of their power or try to down play it. Steffi was proud of her POWERFUL forehand, Monica was proud of her POWERFUL groundstrokes, and now that Serena has taken it to another level it's all the sudden something to be shameful about? Yes the foundation of Serena's game is POWER and if you took all of her power away she wouldn't be half the player she is- so what!!! Obviously power is just one crucial component contributing to her success. She also has the mental fortitude of champ, speed, a great serve (more variety on her serve than most other girls- not just power), great court sense, etc... The whole argument of stripping a player of their biggest weapon to prove their one dimential is beyond silly. If you took Steffi's forehand away trust me we wouldn't be talking about her today- but that doesn't necessarily mean she was one dimentional (although she was kinda one dimensional come to think of it...lol- more so than Serena is). Even if ur game is based around one thing you can be a champ and multiple Slam winner if other parts of your game aren't in place as well.

Movement and ability to slide into your shots is the key. Look at the great (multiple) RG Champs.... all fluid into their slides.
I don't know if that's true cuz Monica won 3 in a row and she doesn't slide into her shots. People on this board have already tried to convince me that she had great footwork, but no way in the world you're going to convince me she has great movement. Same goes for Peirce...

faste5683
Feb 17th, 2004, 01:43 AM
Who said that?? If that the way u interpret that simple english then I cant help you anymore.

You said:

"I believed its the way a player feel comfortably on that surface. If you grew up on that surface then your more ease to play there."

You also said that you didn't believe in players being better on "this or that" surface.

I can't help but see a contradiction in this statement. No big deal.

:wavey:

"Topaz"
Feb 17th, 2004, 02:09 AM
Look guys, in any confrontation, be it sports or even war, everybody seeks an advantage, fair or otherwise. A big serve can win you a point, so you go for it. A powerful forehand or backhand can end the rally, so you go for it. The problem is how and when to generate that power.

First the "how". To apply that impulse to the ball, you need a good footing which should allow you to involve your whole body into the shot; not only your arm(s). If you slide a little bit you lose some energy in that slide and the ball gets less of the total energy. The best surface for power in therefore carpet where you can plank your feet before the shot; then come concrete, grass, rubber and lastly clay. Excellent footing will minimize the surface effects but will not eliminate them completely. One trick I noticed some players use is to jump into the power shot. Those who do so seem to be quite successful at power on clay. Jen Cap and Pierce use it a lot, Justine on forehands. I also noticed that both Williamses readily lift off the ground on hard surfaces but are rather timid on doing so on clay. Davenport, BTW, never jumps anywhere on her power shots. So, players have to adjust as best they can. Kim, Justine, Venus and Serena adapt pretty well on it; Justine has a slight edge, not a dominant one.

Now the "when". It seems to be that if you know when to start that twist and jump on clay, it gives you a tremendous advantage. If you can't jump into the power shot, then you will have to wait for that perfect occasion which should give you time to prepare and deliver.

Fortunately, while a power shot can end the rally (re Steffi's forehand), there are other dimensions to tennis that you can bring to bear. Angles, drop shots, line painting or just frustrating the opponent into an error (via moon balls) are all in the game's panoply.

Let me finish with this comment. In the fighter aircraft business, the stealth fighter is the latest darling. Its key advantage stems from the fact that it can see you and blow you out of the sky before you even realize you had company. Such an advantage! Boy! Yet, let me point this out: somebody figured, on top of stealth, that plane needed more power! So the stealth fighter F22 was given 50% more power than the already super-powerful F15 it's supposed to replace. Both aircraft weigh the same, about 30,000 lb empty. Imagine the effect of that extra power!

F15: two jet engines of 14,584 lb thrust dry, each; 23,753 lb with reheat.
F22: two jet engines of 23,595 lb thrust dry, each; 35,393 lb with reheat.

Power, my friends, everybody wants it, even when you're already endowed with other qualities. You never take it away; you add to it. Don't think of Serena without power, not even Justine for that matter.

BTW, that extra engine power allows the F22 to cruise at mach-2 without lighting up the after-burners (that is known as super-cruise).

Rub
Feb 17th, 2004, 02:15 AM
justine's footwork is, i think the key... yeah... her slides are beautiful!!!

Freewoman33
Feb 17th, 2004, 02:15 AM
cheesestix, I responded directly to the person who started this thread. What I comprehended, after reading his/her post, was that Venus and Serena relied solely on power to win matches.

bandabou
Feb 17th, 2004, 04:39 AM
Pay attention, please, people!

The point that people time and again try to get across is that "power is the difference". The key word is "difference." People need to get that through their thick skulls!

Williams fans always come back with "well, there's more to their game than power". Well, duh, nobody said power was ALL they had, just that it is the "difference." In other words, all other things being equal, it is the power that gives Venus and Serena the advantage.

Sure, Lindsay has power, but she lacks other things.

Venus and Serena have more than just power, but it's the power that makes the difference. Let it sink in, people!

It's not that difficult to understand. You Williams fans need to quit being so defensive and try paying attention to what is said and drop the knee-jerk reactions.

Then I don´t see how they can be one-dimentional or just "power", when they can beat you in sooooo many ways.

tennnisfannn
Feb 17th, 2004, 05:12 AM
Granted, many people say Justine is the best clay courter but is she any better than Serena or is it just assumed that her style of play should make her better. They have both won ONE slam on that surface. In non slam events the h2h is 2/1 in favour of Justine not an overwhelming difference. Against Venus they are dead even on clay. They only played the twice, but Venus also beat hingis (reputed as the greatest clay courter ever) in straight sets (don't remember the event) Point is both sisters remain competetive on clay.
How is it possible to argue that Kim is a great clay courter when her results with venus are the same, finalist at RG, and not as great as Serena's.
Serena, Jen, Pierce, Steffi, Iva, Seles and now Justine have all won RG. All power players, conclusion: clay doesn't neutralise power, THAT IS A MYTH.
All the above won the title coz of a combination of skills, right circumstances and having the presence of mind when it counted the most.
And before you start arguing that justine ain't a power player, take that power away, you have the justine of pre 2003 RG

SJW
Feb 17th, 2004, 10:47 AM
^ i think it was Hamburg 02 (Venus beating Hingis in straights)

bandabou
Feb 17th, 2004, 03:26 PM
Granted, many people say Justine is the best clay courter but is she any better than Serena or is it just assumed that her style of play should make her better. They have both won ONE slam on that surface. In non slam events the h2h is 2/1 in favour of Justine not an overwhelming difference. Against Venus they are dead even on clay. They only played the twice, but Venus also beat hingis (reputed as the greatest clay courter ever) in straight sets (don't remember the event) Point is both sisters remain competetive on clay.
How is it possible to argue that Kim is a great clay courter when her results with venus are the same, finalist at RG, and not as great as Serena's.
Serena, Jen, Pierce, Steffi, Iva, Seles and now Justine have all won RG. All power players, conclusion: clay doesn't neutralise power, THAT IS A MYTH.
All the above won the title coz of a combination of skills, right circumstances and having the presence of mind when it counted the most.
And before you start arguing that justine ain't a power player, take that power away, you have the justine of pre 2003 RG

Bravo!