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View Full Version : What makes Justine such a good clay courter?


henree
Feb 16th, 2004, 06:47 PM
I always wanted to know what makes some players better at clay than others. It seems that Justine is the favorite to win any clay tournaments she is entered into this year. My question is why? I have seen Kim play on clay as well, and I still think Kim is the better clay courter. Kim seems to have very fluid movement. She moves well from side to side. Justine is fast but she doesn't move with the ease and naturallness that Kim does. Why doesn't anyone think Kim is more of a threat to take the most clay court titles this year? Taking into consideration that Justine is a power hitter and her groundies won't penetrate the clay any better than Kim's. Isn't clay all about movement and defense?

PatM04
Feb 16th, 2004, 06:51 PM
Her movement is better than most, she is extremely patient, and she has more variety. And when it comes to Kim I think most people are picking Justine because of the mental advantage Justine has over her right now.

"Sluggy"
Feb 16th, 2004, 07:01 PM
yeah i dont know why either. i plan on seeing her at roland garros live this year, i went 4 times last year. she moves really well and is patient. and she plays so confidently it seems. i :wavey: :wavey:

I always wanted to know what makes some players better at clay than others. It seems that Justine is the favorite to win any clay tournaments she is entered into this year. My question is why? I have seen Kim play on clay as well, and I still think Kim is the better clay courter. Kim seems to have very fluid movement. She moves well from side to side. Justine is fast but she doesn't move with the ease and naturallness that Kim does. Why doesn't anyone think Kim is more of a threat to take the most clay court titles this year? Taking into consideration that Justine is a power hitter and her groundies won't penetrate the clay any better than Kim's. Isn't clay all about movement and defense?

JustineTime
Feb 16th, 2004, 07:02 PM
Time and experience.

Time to set up her shots that the faster surfaces don't afford her, and lots of experience on the surface on which she grew up.

She slides like a Michele Kwan on the dirt! ;) :)

spudrsca
Feb 16th, 2004, 07:07 PM
because she can put a lot of spin on her balls, look at the spaniards on the men's side.

shap_half
Feb 16th, 2004, 07:10 PM
justine can do a lot of things to that ball that kim can't. the thing is that against most player, justine can slice, top spin, blah blah blah blah that kim can't do as well. kim can do the slice and can do the top spin but not as confidently and as assertively as Justine. and just has good net play (better than Kim) that allows her to take advantage of her movement. And just has good anticipation that Kim doesn't have.

bandabou
Feb 16th, 2004, 07:15 PM
Because she grew up on clay and her game is clay-friendly really.

irma
Feb 16th, 2004, 07:22 PM
Kim grew up on clay too

Kim already goes on clay with the thought that it is not her best surface. That's not a good attitude, but I raised that subject before;) (when not about Kim)

CJ07
Feb 16th, 2004, 07:27 PM
the one thing that Justine really really does well on clay is retrieve. She did this very well at FCC last year against Serena. She was like 2 or 3 yards behind the baseline just retrieving. She knows Serena's dropshots are horrible (sorry rena, but they really are :o ) so it's not a problem.

VW#1
Feb 16th, 2004, 07:53 PM
I think Justine is only considered such a good clay courter by default. I personally think that she is a better grass court player than she is a clay court player. But people focus on her being a clay courter because that is the only surface where the Williams sisters can't overpower her, so it allows her to play her game more. No one in the world is better on grass than Henin Hardenne except for the Williams sisters. I think her game is better suited for grass, but because there are better players than her on that surface, people label her a clay courter.

SJW
Feb 16th, 2004, 07:58 PM
cuz she plays good squash shots

bandabou
Feb 16th, 2004, 08:00 PM
the one thing that Justine really really does well on clay is retrieve. She did this very well at FCC last year against Serena. She was like 2 or 3 yards behind the baseline just retrieving. She knows Serena's dropshots are horrible (sorry rena, but they really are :o ) so it's not a problem.

Yeah, I think if Serena could work on those....sheīd be an even bigger threat to Justine for the mantle of best clay-courter.

Rollo
Feb 16th, 2004, 08:05 PM
She is technically sound off both sides-meaning she can keep the ball in court when she has too. Both Clijsters and Venus break down off the forehand. I would say Serena is technically sound off both sides too, but Henin is a bit more patient and grew up on the stuff.

Capriati is also helped on the surface by her solid groundies.

DelMonte
Feb 16th, 2004, 08:11 PM
I think Justine is only considered such a good clay courter by default. I personally think that she is a better grass court player than she is a clay court player. But people focus on her being a clay courter because that is the only surface where the Williams sisters can't overpower her, so it allows her to play her game more. No one in the world is better on grass than Henin Hardenne except for the Williams sisters. I think her game is better suited for grass, but because there are better players than her on that surface, people label her a clay courter.


I agree with VW#1 in that Justine is a superior grass court player. If Venus and Serena are not back to 100% by Wimbledon, I reckon Justine will win the Championships.

DelMonte

alfajeffster
Feb 16th, 2004, 08:11 PM
She is technically sound off both sides-meaning she can keep the ball in court when she has too. Both Clijsters and Venus break down off the forehand. I would say Serena is technically sound off both sides too, but Henin is a bit more patient and grew up on the stuff.

Capriati is also helped on the surface by her solid groundies.
It's what's brought her to the #1 spot. Justine used to make quite a few errors off that forehand wing, and she's made the adjustments, and now it's a technically sound shot that she can rely on, and hit winners when in position. I like watching her positioning on a clay court- it's still much better than the other surfaces for her- where she scrambles so much more.

flyingmachine
Feb 16th, 2004, 08:52 PM
It's what's brought her to the #1 spot. Justine used to make quite a few errors off that forehand wing, and she's made the adjustments, and now it's a technically sound shot that she can rely on, and hit winners when in position. I like watching her positioning on a clay court- it's still much better than the other surfaces for her- where she scrambles so much more.

I agree with you.

venusfan
Feb 16th, 2004, 08:52 PM
I always wanted to know what makes some players better at clay than others. It seems that Justine is the favorite to win any clay tournaments she is entered into this year. My question is why? I have seen Kim play on clay as well, and I still think Kim is the better clay courter. Kim seems to have very fluid movement. She moves well from side to side. Justine is fast but she doesn't move with the ease and naturallness that Kim does. Why doesn't anyone think Kim is more of a threat to take the most clay court titles this year? Taking into consideration that Justine is a power hitter and her groundies won't penetrate the clay any better than Kim's. Isn't clay all about movement and defense?
I think Justin moves good on clay because she has no breast to slow down her movement.

GANGSTABACKHAND!
Feb 16th, 2004, 08:58 PM
This is the reason why Justine can't beat Serena or Venus on any other surface. Clay allows Justine a lot of extra time to set up her shots, she can stay way behind the baseline and retrive balls. It makes for boring tennis really. I think clay is the worst surface, it allows people with no real skills to beat or give a better player a hard time!

Freewoman33
Feb 16th, 2004, 08:58 PM
Patience and variety.

flyingmachine
Feb 16th, 2004, 08:59 PM
I think Justine is only considered such a good clay courter by default. I personally think that she is a better grass court player than she is a clay court player. But people focus on her being a clay courter because that is the only surface where the Williams sisters can't overpower her, so it allows her to play her game more. No one in the world is better on grass than Henin Hardenne except for the Williams sisters. I think her game is better suited for grass, but because there are better players than her on that surface, people label her a clay courter.

Interesting I could see the evidence of that she won Wimbledon as a junior so I could see the reason why you saying. If Justine serve a bit more consisdent (Her serve was very good during the AO) and a bit better on the net or should I said go to the net a lot more than she will have a very good chance winning Wimbledon regrandless of the William sister.

ys
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:03 PM
Double-handed return of serve.

bandabou
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:09 PM
Interesting I could see the evidence of that she won Wimbledon as a junior so I could see the reason why you saying. If Justine serve a bit more consisdent (Her serve was very good during the AO) and a bit better on the net or should I said go to the net a lot more than she will have a very good chance winning Wimbledon regrandless of the William sister.

She ainīt beating a Williams if she keeps insisting to go for the big-serve, but canīt get them in. With a 45 % first serve percentage, it ainīt happening. Not on grass, because she will get those second-serves back before she even finishes her serving-motion.

CJ07
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:15 PM
well Justine really hasn't been successful at wimbledon against the Williams Sisters.

I mean, other than their off stretches, she barely wins games against Venus and Serena

Like at Wimbledon 2001
she lost the first set 6-1, Venus was a little off second set, but then won the next 6-0

2002, same story.
Justine got to 3-2, V was making some errors, and then lost 7 straight games

2003, same story
Serena goes up 4-0, makes errors losing 3 games in a row, then wins 8 of the last 6

not a good pattern...she's a great grass court player, but the court is just too fast

minboy
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:16 PM
She ainīt beating a Williams if she keeps insisting to go for the big-serve, but canīt get them in. With a 45 % first serve percentage, it ainīt happening. Not on grass, because she will get those second-serves back before she even finishes her serving-motion.
She has by far the best second serve in women's tennis, so it's not really a problem ( at AO she had a second serve 's average speed faster than marat safin second serve!!! - don't remember which match that was, but not the final)

CJ07
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:18 PM
not really, yes its better, but its still attackable and Serena's is still better (well we haven't seen Rena so I couldn't say) and quite frankly Venus's isn't that far back. In the first round, save for the DF's, Venus's second serve was excellent.

and fyi, Venus's second serve was faster than both of theirs

speed isn't everything

bandabou
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:21 PM
She has by far the best second serve in women's tennis, so it's not really a problem ( at AO she had a second serve 's average speed faster than marat safin second serve!!! - don't remember which match that was, but not the final)

It ainīt about the speed, dude. Justine was serving faster than Serena at wimbledon too and it didnīt prevent Serena to eat her serve for lunch....really save for like the one odd game Serena was off, Justine barely held serve during that match and donīt think her serve is much better now than then.

Crazy_Fool
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:23 PM
Yep the grass court is cut out for players with pace more than anything.

As for clay, Justine is very good defensivley and knows when to pick her moment, something Kim can learn from.

minboy
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:26 PM
She still has a very good placement on her second serves. And it is really less attacable than serena's ( not even talkin about venus ), that's why she can afford to have such a poor first serve percentage. Off course, comparing their first- serves, serena's ones are very well placed, a lot better than justine.

Also don't forget that Justine won 3 GS with 50% first serve in, so there has to be something good about her second serve.

flyingmachine
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:31 PM
She ainīt beating a Williams if she keeps insisting to go for the big-serve, but canīt get them in. With a 45 % first serve percentage, it ainīt happening. Not on grass, because she will get those second-serves back before she even finishes her serving-motion.

Justine dids not always go for big serve she's always mixed serve up. However she needs to be more consisdence with her as I said before she dids have a few things to improve before she can win Wimbledon but I think is a lot more with going to the net rather than the serve and also she does not have a slow serving-motion unlike other players such as Daverport so I will not worry that she will not get the second serves back.

The receipt for Wimbledon is to serve well and get to net now!!!! The art of serve and volley.

bandabou
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:34 PM
Justine dids not always go for big serve she's always mixed serve up. However she needs to be more consisdence with her as I said before she dids have a few things to improve before she can win Wimbledon but I think is a lot more with going to the net rather than the serve and also she does not have a slow serving-motion unlike other players such as Daverport so I will not worry that she will not get the second serves back.

The receipt for Wimbledon is to serve well and get to net now!!!!

O.k...but you canīt go to the net with second-serves. Didnīt you watch the match or what?! Justine was barely seeing some of the balls who passed her when she was at the net...and donīt forget the return winners by Serena.

bandabou
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:36 PM
She still has a very good placement on her second serves. And it is really less attacable than serena's ( not even talkin about venus ), that's why she can afford to have such a poor first serve percentage. Off course, comparing their first- serves, serena's ones are very well placed, a lot better than justine.

Also don't forget that Justine won 3 GS with 50% first serve in, so there has to be something good about her second serve.

We arenīt even discussing this. Itīs a FACT that Serena has both the best first and second-serves in womenīs tennis.

Yeah, Justine did win three majors....only once did she face a server and returner like a Serena though.

minboy
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:45 PM
We arenīt even discussing this. Itīs a FACT that Serena has both the best first and second-serves in womenīs tennis.
Serena has the best first serve in women's tennis, best second serve belongs to Justine

( .......here we go yet another endless discussion with bandabou............)

Knizzle
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:47 PM
Serena has the best first serve in women's tennis, best second serve belongs to Justine

( .......here we go yet another endless discussion with bandabou............)
Serena has the best second serve. Justine makes too many DF's. Serena ate up Justine's second serve in their last match.

Crazy_Fool
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:47 PM
Serena has the best first serve in women's tennis, best second serve belongs to Justine

( .......here we go yet another endless discussion with bandabou............)
True, although according to him Serena has the best everything....

bandabou
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:50 PM
Serena has the best first serve in women's tennis, best second serve belongs to Justine

( .......here we go yet another endless discussion with bandabou............)

So because you said so I canīt disagree?! Justine is always in the tournament-lead for dfīs. Serena hits LESS dfīs and wins MORE points on her second-serve. How can Justineīs be better?!

DD
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:52 PM
How can henin have the best second serve if it's not effective against expecially the williams sisters. Henin cant eat serena's second serve. she has got the best in the bussiness.

ys
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:53 PM
How can henin have the best second serve if it's not effective against expecially the williams sisters. Henin cant eat serena's second serve. she has got the best in the bussiness.
She's got nothing. At the moment.

bandabou
Feb 16th, 2004, 09:56 PM
How can henin have the best second serve if it's not effective against expecially the williams sisters. Henin cant eat serena's second serve. she has got the best in the bussiness.

Exactly....Justineīs second-serve is better than Serena. Yet when Justine plays Serena( on non-clay surfaces), Justine canīt hold serve while Serena holds serve without even trying. This equation doesnīt really give the answer: Justineīs a better serve than Serena.

minboy
Feb 16th, 2004, 10:09 PM
Serena eats Justine's second serve because she is an amazing player. The reason she beats Justine on grass/hardcourt is because she 's the best player overall, doesn't mean she has a best second serve than Justine.

Serena can't have it all ,you know!

minboy
Feb 16th, 2004, 10:13 PM
Now let's go back to the topic please

mboyle
Feb 16th, 2004, 10:19 PM
She ainīt beating a Williams if she keeps insisting to go for the big-serve, but canīt get them in. With a 45 % first serve percentage, it ainīt happening. Not on grass, because she will get those second-serves back before she even finishes her serving-motion.
you know what? If you are going to diss every player that isn't black like you are, could you please use correct grammar? Because using "ain't" just makes you look like an ignorant fool on top of being an asshole.

Cheers,
Matt

jenny161185
Feb 16th, 2004, 10:43 PM
her retrieval and fluid movement on the surface,lol saying serena will eat Justines second serve - wasn t it Justine hitting winners off serenas second serve in the RG semis last year. Her serve has improved greatly so give credit where due

Cybelle Darkholme
Feb 17th, 2004, 02:02 AM
you know what? If you are going to diss every player that isn't black like you are, could you please use correct grammar? Because using "ain't" just makes you look like an ignorant fool on top of being an asshole.

Cheers,
Matt

another poster playing the race card... :rolleyes:

Rub
Feb 17th, 2004, 02:19 AM
i just hope kim picks it up in big matches!!!

bandabou
Feb 17th, 2004, 04:31 AM
Serena eats Justine's second serve because she is an amazing player. The reason she beats Justine on grass/hardcourt is because she 's the best player overall, doesn't mean she has a best second serve than Justine.

Serena can't have it all ,you know!

Fine...Justine can have the second-serve, as long as Serena gets the wins.

bandabou
Feb 17th, 2004, 04:32 AM
her retrieval and fluid movement on the surface,lol saying serena will eat Justines second serve - wasn t it Justine hitting winners off serenas second serve in the RG semis last year. Her serve has improved greatly so give credit where due


Clay, clay....gives Justine time and takes time away from Serena.

for-sure
Feb 17th, 2004, 04:37 AM
This is the reason why Justine can't beat Serena or Venus on any other surface. Clay allows Justine a lot of extra time to set up her shots, she can stay way behind the baseline and retrive balls. It makes for boring tennis really. I think clay is the worst surface, it allows people with no real skills to beat or give a better player a hard time!

This is the dumbest post I have ever read. Do you know anything about tennis?

for-sure
Feb 17th, 2004, 04:43 AM
2003 Justine's record against Serena was 2-1.
We cannot really compare Serena to Justine now, because frankly I have not seen Serena play in 8 months...while Justine is constantly improving her game.
As for 'Justine not being able to win on anything but clay..." Well I say, that If 30 year old Lisa Raymond can beat Venus on a non-clay surface, so can Justine :)

It's too bad Venus sucked so much she could not get past the third round...I would have loved for Justine to crush her in the final...ala Martina Hingis' 6-1 6-1 crushing of her in the SF a couple years back.

But it's kinda hard to get a win over someone if they constantly lose before they give you a chance to play them.

VW#1
Feb 17th, 2004, 04:55 AM
2003 Justine's record against Serena was 2-1.
We cannot really compare Serena to Justine now, because frankly I have not seen Serena play in 8 months...while Justine is constantly improving her game.
As for 'Justine not being able to win on anything but clay..." Well I say, that If 30 year old Lisa Raymond can beat Venus on a non-clay surface, so can Justine :)

It's too bad Venus sucked so much she could not get past the third round...I would have loved for Justine to crush her in the final...ala Martina Hingis' 6-1 6-1 crushing of her in the SF a couple years back.

But it's kinda hard to get a win over someone if they constantly lose before they give you a chance to play them.


I like Lisa Raymond, and she went out there and took an opportunity, but everyone knows she beat Venus because she was rusty. Just like whenever someone beats either Belgian or Williams sister it's more about them then the person getting the win. And if anyone thinks Martina Hingis could beat venus 1 and 1 without any help is sadly mistaken. Anybody watching that match could see Venus could barely keep a ball in the court. I'd say the same thing the other way around. There's no way she'd beat Martina 1 and 1 without a lot of help either. So if you have nothing productive to say then don't say anything and stop trying to cause trouble when people are simply voicing their opinions. The Williams sisters don't suck and neither do the belgians.

for-sure
Feb 17th, 2004, 04:57 AM
The red clay makes her hand less visible, meaning she can fool the server...yet not be seen by the umpire. :rolleyes:

for-sure
Feb 17th, 2004, 04:59 AM
I like Lisa Raymond, and she went out there and took an opportunity, but everyone knows she beat Venus because she was rusty. Just like whenever someone beats either Belgian or Williams sister it's more about them then the person getting the win. And if anyone thinks Martina Hingis could beat venus 1 and 1 without any help is sadly mistaken. Anybody watching that match could see Venus could barely keep a ball in the court. I'd say the same thing the other way around. There's no way she'd beat Martina 1 and 1 without a lot of help either. So if you have nothing productive to say then don't say anything and stop trying to cause trouble when people are simply voicing their opinions. The Williams sisters don't suck and neither do the belgians.

A big part of tennis is 'keeping the ball in the court' I don't care how good you 'are' if you can't do that...you...suck.

bandabou
Feb 17th, 2004, 05:04 AM
2003 Justine's record against Serena was 2-1.
We cannot really compare Serena to Justine now, because frankly I have not seen Serena play in 8 months...while Justine is constantly improving her game.
As for 'Justine not being able to win on anything but clay..." Well I say, that If 30 year old Lisa Raymond can beat Venus on a non-clay surface, so can Justine :)

It's too bad Venus sucked so much she could not get past the third round...I would have loved for Justine to crush her in the final...ala Martina Hingis' 6-1 6-1 crushing of her in the SF a couple years back.

But it's kinda hard to get a win over someone if they constantly lose before they give you a chance to play them.

The case with Serena and Justine.....Serenaīs good enough to last till the finals on clay, while Justine only now has started to do so( and we donīt even know how that was due to not Williams playing.)

Rtael
Feb 17th, 2004, 05:04 AM
another poster playing the race card... :rolleyes:
Well, you know a lot about that don't you?

for-sure
Feb 17th, 2004, 05:05 AM
The case with Serena and Justine.....Serenaīs good enough to last till the finals on clay, while Justine only now has started to do so( and we donīt even know how that was due to not Williams playing.)

your post makes no sense. I am sorry, could you be more clear?

bandabou
Feb 17th, 2004, 05:09 AM
your post makes no sense. I am sorry, could you be more clear?

Only now did Justine start reaching finals on non-clay surfaces like hardcourts and even indoors.

bigshow21
Feb 17th, 2004, 05:11 AM
I think Justin moves good on clay because she has no breast to slow down her movement.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ....good one!!!

pigam
Feb 17th, 2004, 09:17 AM
I think Justin moves good on clay because she has no breast to slow down her movement.
if you want to insult somebody, you could learn to write their names first :wavey: :kiss:

spudrsca
Feb 17th, 2004, 09:23 AM
Those who said that it's just about retrieving have understood nothing.

Look at the first set of the RG semi against Serena, Justine was actually dictating the play with heavy powerful topspin shots and wrong footed Serena many times.

On Clay the topspin is very efficient, after the rebound, the ball go quicker while some surfaces annihilate the spins.

When Justine became less agressive in the second set, she lost the set.

So, I disagree when someone says it's about retrieving. It's more about heavy topspin, angles, dropshot than just retrieving and be able to create your own pace.

That's why Hewitt is less effective on clay, it's more difficult to use the pace off the opponent. It's also why Serena and especially Venus have more difficulties on clay.

bandabou
Feb 17th, 2004, 03:29 PM
Those who said that it's just about retrieving have understood nothing.

Look at the first set of the RG semi against Serena, Justine was actually dictating the play with heavy powerful topspin shots and wrong footed Serena many times.

On Clay the topspin is very efficient, after the rebound, the ball go quicker while some surfaces annihilate the spins.

When Justine became less agressive in the second set, she lost the set.

So, I disagree when someone says it's about retrieving. It's more about heavy topspin, angles, dropshot than just retrieving and be able to create your own pace.

That's why Hewitt is less effective on clay, it's more difficult to use the pace off the opponent. It's also why Serena and especially Venus have more difficulties on clay.

But the sisters have done MUUUUUCCCCHHH more on clay than Hewitt.

shap_half
Feb 17th, 2004, 03:41 PM
The case with Serena and Justine.....Serenaīs good enough to last till the finals on clay, while Justine only now has started to do so( and we donīt even know how that was due to not Williams playing.)

last time I checked, Justine made the finals of Wimbledone before Serena did.

for-sure
Feb 17th, 2004, 03:44 PM
last time I checked, Justine made the finals of Wimbledone before Serena did.

;)

bandabou
Feb 17th, 2004, 04:09 PM
last time I checked, Justine made the finals of Wimbledone before Serena did.

Indeed, but then again Serena won that and pretty much everything else before Justine did too! Reaching the finals is nice and cool, but look at Serena: itīs her whoīs two-time defending champion..and remember: she has beaten Justine pretty easily at both Wimbledon and the Open, while Justine still needed some tactics to win on her beloved clay.

No,not taking anything away from Justine....but what she did DID influence the match.

harloo
Feb 17th, 2004, 04:11 PM
Didn't she grow up on clay? Maybe that would explain why she is good on it.

shap_half
Feb 17th, 2004, 04:22 PM
Indeed, but then again Serena won that and pretty much everything else before Justine did too! Reaching the finals is nice and cool, but look at Serena: itīs her whoīs two-time defending champion..and remember: she has beaten Justine pretty easily at both Wimbledon and the Open, while Justine still needed some tactics to win on her beloved clay.

No,not taking anything away from Justine....but what she did DID influence the match.

not even going to discuss that match with you...

first you talk about reaching finals of whatever and then now that i provide you with evidence you start talking about something else. so what is it?

and who cares if serena won wimbledon first? what does that mean really?

bandabou
Feb 17th, 2004, 04:36 PM
not even going to discuss that match with you...

first you talk about reaching finals of whatever and then now that i provide you with evidence you start talking about something else. so what is it?

and who cares if serena won wimbledon first? what does that mean really?

O.k...you gotta point there.

bandabou
Feb 17th, 2004, 04:37 PM
But donīt come denigrade no Wimbledon-title here....because then we can say too: Who cares about Justineīs RG?!

shap_half
Feb 17th, 2004, 04:53 PM
That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter that Serena's able to do all this and Justine has not yet done so. If Justine's career is over and she never wins Wimbledon then you can say as you did, but until then, it doesn't really matter that Serena's won Wimbledon twice because Justine hopefully will get that chance to do so. Serena's been a pro since what 1994? 95? Justine's been a pro since 1999, Serena's been around for a long time before she even made the final of Wimbledon, Justine did it in 2 years. Does that matter? No because Serena eventually won 2 Wimbledon titles. But what if this was 2001, would we say that Justine is better because she reached the final and Serena hasn't done so yet?

bandabou
Feb 17th, 2004, 05:01 PM
That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter that Serena's able to do all this and Justine has not yet done so. If Justine's career is over and she never wins Wimbledon then you can say as you did, but until then, it doesn't really matter that Serena's won Wimbledon twice because Justine hopefully will get that chance to do so. Serena's been a pro since what 1994? 95? Justine's been a pro since 1999, Serena's been around for a long time before she even made the final of Wimbledon, Justine did it in 2 years. Does that matter? No because Serena eventually won 2 Wimbledon titles. But what if this was 2001, would we say that Justine is better because she reached the final and Serena hasn't done so yet?

I get your point....but Serena wasnīt around really in ī94, more like in ī97, ī98.

VW#1
Feb 17th, 2004, 05:23 PM
A big part of tennis is 'keeping the ball in the court' I don't care how good you 'are' if you can't do that...you...suck.



You obviously missed the point of my response. Again if people have nothing productive to say why even bother? It's obvious Venus was way below par in that much, so losing a match like that to Martina probably didn't even bother her that much, because she knows it was all on her. She made all the mistakes. I love Venus but if she goes out and beats Justine or Kim or any other top player 1 and 1, I would say the same thing, they were obviously off.

jenny161185
Feb 17th, 2004, 06:34 PM
how does clay give time to Justine and take time away from Serena - Surely Serena could use the time on returning serve to even better her return

bandabou
Feb 17th, 2004, 07:11 PM
how does clay give time to Justine and take time away from Serena - Surely Serena could use the time on returning serve to even better her return

Nope...normally Serena doesnīt even have to rally with people, because her returns would already end the point....but on clay, people can catch up with her returns. And if Serena isnīt in her patient mode, she īs gonna strugle ib the clay.

slydevil6142
Feb 17th, 2004, 07:38 PM
The red clay makes her hand less visible, meaning she can fool the server...yet not be seen by the umpire. :rolleyes:

Haha :lol: possibly the funniest post iv read in a long time