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Volcana
Feb 14th, 2004, 02:45 PM
Players come along, dominate, then don't. So return, some don't. Sometimes they get injured. Sometimes they get fat, arrested or fall in love. The example I'm going to use is Hingis, because its so dramatic.

She stomped everyone through 99, played the power players even in 2000, then in 2001, the wheels fell off. And I'm sure her foot problems had something to do with it. But that doesn't explain losing to Amy Frazier or Virginia Ruano Pascual!



99 Sydney FR L Lindsay DAVENPORT 4-6 3-6
-------------------------------------------------------------
99 Australian Open 64 W DEMENTIEVA 6-3 6-2
99 Australian Open 32 W DOKIC 6-1 6-2
99 Australian Open 16 W COETZER 6-3 6-7(4) 6-1
99 Australian Open QF W PIERCE 6-3 6-4
99 Australian Open SF W SELES 6-2 6-4
99 Australian Open FR W MAURESMO 6-2 6-3
-------------------------------------------------------------
99 Paris QF L Amelie MAURESMO 6-2 1-6 3-6
99 Indian Wells QF L Chanda RUBIN 3-6 6-7
99 Key Biscayne SF L Serena WILLIAMS 4-6 6-7
99 Rome QF W Serena WILLIAMS 6-2 6-2
99 Rome SF L Venus WILLIAMS 4-6 6-1 4-6
99 French Open 64 W Amelie MAURESMO 6-3 6-3
99 French Open FR L Steffi GRAF 6-4 5-7 2-6
99 Wimbledon 128 L Jelena DOKIC 2-6 0-6
99 San Diego FR W Venus WILLIAMS 6-4 6-0
99 Manhattan Beach SF L Serena WILLIAMS 3-6 5-7
99 Canadian Open SF W Mary PIERCE 7-6 6-3
99 Canadian Open FR W Monica SELES 6-4 6-4
99 US Open SF W Venus WILLIAMS 6-1 4-6 6-3
99 US Open FR L Serena WILLIAMS 3-6 6-7
99 Grand Slam Cup QF W Amelie MAURESMO 7-6 6-2
99 Grand Slam Cup SF L Venus WILLIAMS 2-6 7-6 7-9
99 Filderstadt FR W Mary PIERCE 6-4 6-1
99 Zurich FR L Venus WILLIAMS 3-6 4-6
99 Philadelphia FR L Lindsay DAVENPORT 3-6 4-6
99 T-Championships QF W Mary PIERCE 6-1 6-2
99 T-Championships SF W Venus WILLIAMS 6-4 7-6
99 T-Championships FR L Lindsay DAVENPORT 4-6 2-6
-------------------------------------------------------------
00 Sydney SF L Amelie MAURESMO 5-7 3-6
00 Australian Open FR L Lindsay DAVENPORT 1-6 5-7
00 Scottsdale SF W Mary PIERCE 6-4 6-3
00 Scottsdale FR N Lindsay DAVENPORT N/P
00 Indian Wells QF W Monica SELES 6-3 6-1
00 Indian Wells SF W Mary PIERCE 6-4 6-2
00 Indian Wells FR L Lindsay DAVENPORT 6-4 4-6 0-6
00 Miami SF W Monica SELES 6-0 6-0
00 Miami FR W Lindsay DAVENPORT 6-3 6-2
00 Berlin SF L Conchita MARTINEZ 5-7 4-6
00 French Open SF L Mary PIERCE 4-6 7-5 2-6
00 's-Hertogenbosch SF W Jennifer CAPRIATI 7-5 6-2
00 Wimbledon QF L Venus WILLIAMS 3-6 6-4 4-6
00 San Diego QF L Amy FRAZIER 3-6 3-6

- To my mind, this is the match that gave the rest of
- the tour the 'bluepint' on how to beat Hingis.
- Corner to corner power, keep your UEs down.
- Not to say it would always work, but from this
- point forward, lesser players all tried it.
- (Well, 99% of the tour was 'lesser')

00 Los Angeles SF L Serena WILLIAMS 6-4 2-6 3-6
00 Canadian Open FR W Serena WILLIAMS 0-6 6-3 3-0 Ret
00 U.S. Open QF W Monica SELES 6-0 7-5
00 U.S. Open SF L Venus WILLIAMS 6-4 3-6 5-7
00 Zurich SF W Jennifer CAPRIATI 6-3 6-2
00 Zurich FR W Lindsay DAVENPORT 6-4 4-6 7-5
00 Moscow SF W Amelie MAURESMO 7-5 6-3
00 Philadelphia FR L Lindsay DAVENPORT 6-7 4-6
00 T-Championships FR W Monica SELES 6-7 6-4 6-4
-------------------------------------------------------------
01 Sydney FR W Lindsay DAVENPORT 6-3 4-6 7-5
01 Australian Open QF W Serena WILLIAMS 6-2 3-6 8-6
01 Australian Open SF W Venus WILLIAMS 6-1 6-1

- The last time she would ever beat Venus.
- In fact, the last time she'd beat Venus OR Serena.
- Who saw THAT coming?
- But check out her record going forward.
- Except for Amelie once, and Monica (who truthfully
- was just too fat to compete at the highest level,
- at this point) Martina never beat another power
- player again. And lost to ASV, Ruano Pascual,
- Hantuchova, Myskina, Petrova, dokic and Dementieva.
- All players you'd expect her to toy with.

01 Australian Open FR L Jennifer CAPRIATI 4-6 3-6
01 Tokyo FR L Lindsay DAVENPORT 7-6 4-6 2-6
01 Indian Wells SF L Kim CLIJSTERS 2-6 6-2 1-6
01 Miami SF L Venus WILLIAMS 3-6 6-7
01 Amelia Island QF L A SANCHEZ-VICARIO 2-6 4-6
01 Charleston QF W Amelie MAURESMO 7-5 6-2
01 Charleston FR L Jennifer CAPRIATI 0-6 6-4 4-6
01 Berlin SF L Amelie MAURESMO 6-2 0-6 4-6
01 Rome SF L Amelie MAURESMO 4-6 6-7
01 French Open SF L Jennifer CAPRIATI 4-6 3-6
01 Wimbledon 128 L V RUANO PASCUAL 4-6 2-6
01 San Diego SF L Monica SELES 3-6 4-6
01 Los Angeles SF L Monica SELES 3-6 6-1 4-6
01 U.S. Open SF L Serena WILLIAMS 3-6 2-6
01 Moscow QF L Elena DEMENTIEVA 2-6 2-6
01 Filderstadt SF L Lindsay DAVENPORT 1-2 Ret
-------------------------------------------------------------
02 Australian Open SF W Monica SELES 4-6 6-1 6-4
02 Australian Open FR L Jennifer CAPRIATI 6-4 6-7 2-6
02 Tokyo FR W Monica SELES 7-6 4-6 6-3
02 Scottsdale SF L Serena WILLIAMS 1-6 6-3 4-6
02 Indian Wells SF W Monica SELES 6-3 6-2
02 Indian Wells FR L Dani HANTUCHOVA 3-6 4-6
02 Miami QF L Serena WILLIAMS 4-6 0-6
02 Hamburg SF L Venus WILLIAMS 5-7 3-6
02 Canadian Open QF L Jelena DOKIC 4-6 3-6
02 New Haven QF L Anastasia MYSKINA 7-6 4-6 0-6
02 U.S. Open 16 L Monica SELES 4-6 2-6

Martina wasn't 100% for these, but then Venus wasn't
100% when Martina last beat her either. I'm not sure
whether to pay attention to conditioning as a factor or
not.

02 Moscow 32 L Nadia PETROVA 2-6 2-6
02 Filderstadt 16 L Elena DEMENTIEVA 3-6 1-6

The tour figured her out. Don't fool around. Just try to beat her to death.

That's a lot of example to make a point. 'The tour', as an entity, tries to solve people. When a dominant player loses, more and more players will try that same approach when facing that dominant player.

You beat Justine the same way you beat Martina. Consistent corenr-to-corner power, with few UEs. Well, let me re-phrase that. You TRY to beat Justine the same way you TRIED to beat Martina. You'll note that it works for Venus, it doesn't work for Lindsay, and it only works some of the time for Serena.

You don't beat Serena that way. To beat Serena, you mix it up, but you have to have plenty of power when your opportunity comes. Again, it doesn't always work. We are talking about the winners of the last seven GS tournaments.

But it's what you TRY.

'Solved' is when EVERYBODY tries it, and it works for most of them.

Jenn - Well, Jenn makes it easy by getting fat. Conditioning is so much a part of her game, that we won't even know how she'd play with three years of good conditioning.

Lindsay - Make her run. She's not as good when she can't set up. Of course, you have to be able to return HER groundies, which most of the tour can't.

etc etc etc.

S-T-E-V-E
Feb 14th, 2004, 02:48 PM
I don't like the part about Jen....not very good, sorry...

Volcana
Feb 14th, 2004, 02:51 PM
I don't like the part about Jen....not very good, sorry...
Well, trying interpreting it this way. When Jenn's is top shape, she's a GS winner. And often ion her career, she's not losing because others players are better, she's losing because of herself. Drugs, etting arrested, gettingout of shape. All too often, it wasn't the opposition beating Jenn, it was Jenn's lack of preparedness.

If she had been in shape her whole career, she'd have two or three times the number of GS wins she has.

hollywood7172
Feb 14th, 2004, 03:37 PM
nice analysis volcana!:worship: even though i've hated your guts in previous posts:fiery: , this thread was cool.:cool: have you ever considerd a career in sports journalism?? ;) :wavey: you seem to know your SHIT .:lol: :lol: :bounce: :angel: :devil:

esquímaux
Feb 14th, 2004, 04:13 PM
:yawn:

CJ07
Feb 14th, 2004, 04:24 PM
as always, so true

Havok
Feb 14th, 2004, 05:39 PM
:yawn: hitting corner to corner, keeping UE's down. isn't that how EVERYONE plays:lol: and playing like that is asking for a lot, since Hingis ran down a lot of hard hit shots, and you're bound to hit UE's unless you're having a really good day

Martian Willow
Feb 14th, 2004, 05:47 PM
...a back injury explains losing to Ruano Pascual...shouldn't have played...but she did...hth...thanks... :)

RedFilaJ-Cap#1
Feb 14th, 2004, 05:56 PM
Its been a long time since Jen has been into drugs or gotten arrested. So don't say that. She has never been fat. Do you watch how she runs down every ball she is quick. It isn't fat she is built thats all. She is a great player and this year she is going to show everyone that she is in shape. Only 9 more days!!!!

esquímaux
Feb 14th, 2004, 06:43 PM
Its been a long time since Jen has been into drugs or gotten arrested. So don't say that. She has never been fat. Do you watch how she runs down every ball she is quick. It isn't fat she is built thats all. She is a great player and this year she is going to show everyone that she is in shape. Only 9 more days!!!!
The hope of a fan...how endearing :)

*JR*
Feb 14th, 2004, 06:53 PM
What about if someone wins say, 5 titles @ age 19 (and wins the Newcomer of the Year award)? Then she gets involved with a guru old enough 2B her father, only 2B rescued by someone Already A conman, though not yet convicted For Fraud.

So he "ratifies" the guru he Dished Dirt about having fired the coach who guided the recent Success, So as 2B the only person she can feel any bonding with. (And her 2 subsequent 2-year coaches, for basically the same reason). :(

Volcana
Feb 14th, 2004, 06:53 PM
:yawn: hitting corner to corner, keeping UE's down. isn't that how EVERYONE plays.
No. Playing that way against Serena is pointless. And if you noticed inthe OZ final, Justine played most of her balls down the middle vs Kim.

and playing like that is asking for a lot, since Hingis ran down a lot of hard hit shots
Yes but look at all those losses in 2001 and 2002 to players she'd previously handled easily. It worked.

Volcana
Feb 14th, 2004, 06:58 PM
Its been a long time since Jen has been into drugs or gotten arrested.[quote]

Yess, and while she was doing that, IMHO, she shouild have been winning GS titles. She stopped herself. It wasn't that others were demonstrably better.

[quote]She has never been fat. Do you watch how she runs down every ball she is quick. It isn't fat she is built thats all.
Compare Filderstadt 2003 to OZ 2001.

She is a great player
At last something we can agree on.

SJW
Feb 14th, 2004, 07:01 PM
...a back injury explains losing to Ruano Pascual...shouldn't have played...but she did...hth...thanks... :)
i love Martina but i gotta say this:

she was giving an interview to an English newspaper just before Wimbledon, and she was there kicking around a ball.

so she didn't do herself any favours there

Volcana
Feb 14th, 2004, 07:06 PM
What about if someone wins say, 5 titles @ age 19 (and wins the Newcomer of the Year award)? Then she gets involved with a guru old enough 2B her father, only 2B rescued by someone Already A conman, though not yet convicted For Fraud.

So he "ratifies" the guru he Dished Dirt about having fired the coach who guided the recent Success, So as 2B the only person she can feel any bonding with. (And her 2 subsequent 2-year coaches, for basically the same reason). :(
Well, that depends. If the person is oh, 25 years old now, I'd say they're an adult and responsible for their own actions, and all that stuff about gursu and conmen is just an excuse for failure to perform. If, OTOH, the person is still 19, well their still an adult, and responsible for their own actions, but like many 19 year olds, she may make mistakes. We all do. She may possibly still be adjusting to her own decisions and taking responsibility for them. In that case, I'd say give them some time to realize Mommy and Daddy are going to save them from screwing up anymore, and they better get it together.

The 19 year old I'd tell 'wake up before you fuck up.'

The 25 year old has made life choices, and we all need to accept those choices, rather than treating a 25 year old like they're 13.

*JR*
Feb 14th, 2004, 07:19 PM
The 25 year old has made life choices, and we all need to accept those choices, rather than treating a 25 year old like they're 13. What if She Still acts like a 13 y.o. though? :o

JustineTime
Feb 14th, 2004, 07:31 PM
You beat Justine the same way you beat Martina. Consistent corenr-to-corner power, with few UEs. Well, let me re-phrase that. You TRY to beat Justine the same way you TRIED to beat Martina. You'll note that it works for Venus, it doesn't work for Lindsay, and it only works some of the time for Serena.
Justine after beating Serena at RG '03(paraphrased): "I started going more down the line, because she was going always cross-court and that seemed to help me..."

Annoying buzzer sound: aaaaaaannnnnngggggghhhhhhh!!!!!!

You lose 50 points for gross over-simplification! :p

RedFilaJ-Cap#1
Feb 14th, 2004, 07:57 PM
She isn't FAT!!!!!!! :fiery: That is her body type and it has seemed to work for her the last couple of years. :bounce: She is #5 in the world and to say that she is done is stupid!!!! She has been a contender for a long time and is going to continue to be. You will see when she comes back she is going to be in shape and ready to Kick Some Williams and Belgium Ass!!!

JustineTime
Feb 14th, 2004, 08:07 PM
She isn't FAT!!!!!!! :fiery: That is her body type and it has seemed to work for her the last couple of years. :bounce: She is #5 in the world and to say that she is done is stupid!!!! She has been a contender for a long time and is going to continue to be. You will see when she comes back she is going to be in shape and ready to Kick Some Williams and Belgium Ass!!!
Sung to the tune of SuperTramp's "Dreamer"

"Nothin' but a dreamer...
Oh can you put your hand in your head, oh no..."

:angel:

:lol:

Volcana
Feb 14th, 2004, 08:11 PM
She isn't FAT!Are you actually suggesting that Jenn hasn't gained or lost weight during the past few years? Wait, I'm not being fair or reasonable. You have your view. I have mine. As long as she comes back and plays high quality tennis, the difference in our views is irrelevant.

sartrista7
Feb 14th, 2004, 08:30 PM
That is her body type and it has seemed to work for her the last couple of years.

To the tune of no Slams and only one title, at which her last two opponents retired with injuries :tape: The Capriati fans have surely overtaken the Seles fans as most deluded fanbase now?

And duh, she's not obese or anything, but she's rarely in the optimum shape for a pro athlete these days. And, to be blunt... her game has been overtaken. The only reason she's still top 5 is because women's tennis is pretty much a void of nothingness right now, apart from Justine.

RedFilaJ-Cap#1
Feb 14th, 2004, 09:11 PM
I am not saying she hasn't gained weight but it sure isn't that much that is for sure. Her game has not been over taken what the heck she has had some tough matches and a few set backs but she is still a very strong player in womens tennis!!!! You know you all love to watch Jen's matches even if you don't like her because she is a fighter and its always fun to watch her
!!!! :) :worship:

CinnamoninCinema
Feb 14th, 2004, 09:39 PM
Volcana.

I always felt the real problem with Hingis' game was not her weak serve, but rather her weak forehand. Picking on that side yielded lots of short balls.

GoDominique
Feb 14th, 2004, 11:00 PM
Volcana, your theory doesn't explain Martina's losses to ASV or VRP (partly due to injury, but not only), it doesn't explain why she got outsmarted by players like Serna or McQuillan (both lost in straight sets, but if you saw the matches you would know what I mean), and it doesn't explain why she lost so many matches without putting up a fight.

IMO Martina's problems with her mentality and game came first, only then the whole became more and more confident to beat her.

bandabou
Feb 14th, 2004, 11:11 PM
Good analysis......and true about Serena. I think right now that´s the only way to beat her really: mix it up. You won´t beat her with pace.

CinnamoninCinema
Feb 14th, 2004, 11:20 PM
Volcana, your theory doesn't explain Martina's losses to ASV or VRP (partly due to injury, but not only), it doesn't explain why she got outsmarted by players like Serna or McQuillan (both lost in straight sets, but if you saw the matches you would know what I mean), and it doesn't explain why she lost so many matches without putting up a fight.

IMO Martina's problems with her mentality and game came first, only then the whole became more and more confident to beat her.

As for the Sanchez match (I remember watching it), I still don't know how it happened :). I think Arantxa just had a good day on her best surface and Martina was stiff.

tennnisfannn
Feb 15th, 2004, 12:55 AM
Compare Jen and Kim weight wise. They are both about the same size, similar build, similar height. No one calls kim fat, because she is not and neither is Jen. Both girls are very speedy around the court, so why pick on Jen. It ain't as if Daniela and bedanova are making alot of noise on the tour.
But otherwise a good thread.

Volcana
Feb 15th, 2004, 01:58 AM
Compare Jen and Kim weight wise. They are both about the same size, similar build, similar height. No one calls kim fat, because she is not and neither is Jen. I'm in the States, so except for slams, I don't get to Kim all that much. But when I HAVE seen her, her weight has always seemed pretty much the same. Slender she's not, but she's plays well at that weight, and doesn't seem to gain. Whereas, to my eye, Jenn at 2003 Filderstadt was looking a good 25 pounds heavier than OZ 2001. She wasn't the solidly built Jenn. She was Jenn with a significant belly.

But again, that's just what I saw. If you see it differently, that's fine with me. I'm not trying to convince you to see it my way, and I'm not going to be convinced to ignore the evidence of my own eyes.

You simply saw Jenn as significnatly more slender at Filderstadt last year than I did. Guess what? Perspective influences perception. That isn't news.

moby
Feb 15th, 2004, 02:11 AM
i must say i disagree with your analysis
in 2000 she may have lost to amy, but she beat her the very next tournament, and easily at that... so the point is, every player's going to have an off day
meghann's beaten venus a couple of times before, which doesn't really prove that she's figured venus out, does it?

2001- it was just a terrible year for martina... and yet? she still finished no. 3 in the world... says more about the rest of the tour than anything else

2002- she came back and had championship points in her first slam - 4 of them in fact. she won sydney and tokyo, would have made it 3 tournaments in a row if she'd won any of those 4 points. at scottsdale, she lost to serena in 3 sets... not too shabby, if you remember serena was starting to pick up her game. the straight set loss to daniela at IW was partly due to it being their first meeting, and daniela being inspired. at hamburg martina would beat daniela in straight sets and lose to venus in two close sets too. remember that martina's foot injury was starting to worsen again. she didnt play another tournment till august. when she left, she was at the top of the race to the chase. with 8 tounaments. halfway through the year. so it isnt a case of padding her points with quantity instead of quality.

miami 2002? a thrashing by serena... what can i say? serena thrashed venus in her next match too, and venus practically owned her up till that match. at least martina had a close set.

anything after hamburg is really irrelevant because martina clearly wasnt the same player anymore. 6-3 6-4 over amanda at us open? martina beat a BETTER, more inspired coetzer at the AO 6-0 6-1. took 3 sets over marisa irvin? so which top players has irvin challenged since then.

CinnamoninCinema
Feb 15th, 2004, 02:23 AM
i must say i disagree with your analysis
in 2000 she may have lost to amy, but she beat her the very next tournament, and easily at that... so the point is, every player's going to have an off day
meghann's beaten venus a couple of times before, which doesn't really prove that she's figured venus out, does it?

2001- it was just a terrible year for martina... and yet? she still finished no. 3 in the world... says more about the rest of the tour than anything else

2002- she came back and had championship points in her first slam - 4 of them in fact. she won sydney and tokyo, would have made it 3 tournaments in a row if she'd won any of those 4 points. at scottsdale, she lost to serena in 3 sets... not too shabby, if you remember serena was starting to pick up her game. the straight set loss to daniela at IW was partly due to it being their first meeting, and daniela being inspired. at hamburg martina would beat daniela in straight sets and lose to venus in two close sets too. remember that martina's foot injury was starting to worsen again. she didnt play another tournment till august. when she left, she was at the top of the race to the chase. with 8 tounaments. halfway through the year. so it isnt a case of padding her points with quantity instead of quality.

miami 2002? a thrashing by serena... what can i say? serena thrashed venus in her next match too, and venus practically owned her up till that match. at least martina had a close set.

anything after hamburg is really irrelevant because martina clearly wasnt the same player anymore. 6-3 6-4 over amanda at us open? martina beat a BETTER, more inspired coetzer at the AO 6-0 6-1. took 3 sets over marisa irvin? so which top players has irvin challenged since then.

No, Moby. It says more about what qualifies as a terrible year for Martina Hingis. And she finished at #4 in 2001.

moby
Feb 15th, 2004, 02:26 AM
so she did, i knew she was seeded 3rd at AO, but forgot that lindsay didn't play

RedFilaJ-Cap#1
Feb 15th, 2004, 02:39 AM
Compare Jen and Kim weight wise. They are both about the same size, similar build, similar height. No one calls kim fat, because she is not and neither is Jen. Both girls are very speedy around the court, so why pick on Jen. It ain't as if Daniela and bedanova are making alot of noise on the tour.
But otherwise a good thread.

:worship: ;) GOOD POINT YOU ARE RIGHT :worship:
Thank you they are about the same and Jen is the only one that gets picked on I never thought of that. Look at Justine she buffed up and the Williams sisters did too a few years ago. YOu need to be sort of big to hit the big shots and the top 5 are. God point tennis fannn!!! :bounce:

bigshow21
Feb 15th, 2004, 05:55 AM
Jenn - Well, Jenn makes it easy by getting fat. Conditioning is so much a part of her game, that we won't even know how she'd play with three years of good conditioning.



etc etc etc.

Well, for being fat she sure is damn good. To still be in the top 5 and be fat....WOW!!! So i doubt she is fat, she is just built and muscular. In 8 days she will be running down every ball hit to her and winning every match she plays!!!! :)

Good Luck Jen!! :) :cool: :woohoo: