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View Full Version : Do you ever dislike a player because you don't like their fans on this board?


jrj
Feb 17th, 2002, 08:49 PM
Or the old Wta board? Or even like a player less because you don't like their fans?

Ryan
Feb 17th, 2002, 08:52 PM
Hmmm, in another board, the Williams fans really turned me off to them. There posts were about pro Williams, anti- everyone else, and if you didnt like them, your not a real tennis fan. People like that make me sick.

veryborednow
Feb 17th, 2002, 08:56 PM
no - I am pleased to say I am able to distinguish the difference :)

Double Fault
Feb 17th, 2002, 08:59 PM
Certainly not. I chose whom I like based on my own views and opinions. Not those of others. We are not all joined at the hip and I am glad to see that most people like their favs' for various reasons.

If you only dislike a player because you are not too fond of that players fanbase. What does that tell you about yourself? I'll let you decide.

auntie janie
Feb 17th, 2002, 09:02 PM
LOL, NO! What an idea! :p

Big Fat Pink Elephant
Feb 17th, 2002, 09:05 PM
Well.. I can honestly say that I don't. But I feel that a couple of persons don't like me bcoz of the tennisplayer I like... *sigh*

jrj
Feb 17th, 2002, 09:05 PM
the fact of the matter is this. Certain players I used to at the very least tolerate but their "fans" have gotten so annoying that I totally dislike them. On the other hand I've never had love for Hingis but since becoming friends with Fingon I've at least been happy for him when she wins and stood in line at the US Open to get her autograph for him.

Monica_Rules
Feb 17th, 2002, 09:07 PM
The Hingis fans and williams fans were very loud on the old board they never made me like the players less but on this board one or two hingis fans have been very boystrous and forced there opinion on others and slagged a lot of people and players off!

Jakeev
Feb 17th, 2002, 09:10 PM
I used the think Williams fans on the old board were a tad bit holier than thou, but it never turned me off to the sisters.

However, with the hostility I have seen against JenCap lately, I am beginning to see why some were so loudly defiant.

brickhousesupporter
Feb 17th, 2002, 09:11 PM
Cant say that i do. :rolleyes:

irma
Feb 17th, 2002, 09:19 PM
I admit that when certain fans annoyed me and bashed Steffi that it`s easy to start to say something nasty about their favs but I admit it`s dumb :rolleyes:

Fingon
Feb 17th, 2002, 09:21 PM
I admit it is wrong and the player has nothing to do with her fans.

But I can't help some times to be put off on a player because her fans are just too annoying.

More on the other board though, on this one all fans seem to behave better.

harloo
Feb 17th, 2002, 09:34 PM
I agree with Doublefault. What does that say about you as a person? Personally, I think saying you dislike a player because of their "fans" is a sorry excuse. You know the truth deep down. I can respect someone who says, I don't like a certain player moreso than someone who blames their dislike on the "fans".

I have favorites, but I have never disliked other players. Now, their actions are another story which is another discussion.

victory1
Feb 17th, 2002, 09:36 PM
It's easy to be judgemental, but we have valid points. Example- a link of a Williams fans chat room was posted doing the Emilie and Venus game this week on this board because the scoreboard was not working. Some nice Venus fans decided to make international phones calls to the tournament every 5 minutes for updates. Some people on this board decided to come in and throw racial slurs at us, at Venus, the Williams family and black people in general. Yes, they came from this board. Till you have to fight that type of prejudice, don't preach to us! At least Jennifer don't get judge by the color of her skin but the content of her character.
And no, I don't dislike players because of their fans, there's just have to be more to it then that.

Martian Mel
Feb 17th, 2002, 09:39 PM
Well.. I can honestly say that I don't. But I feel that a couple of persons don't like me bcoz of the tennisplayer I like... *sigh*

Marri i like you a lot!;)

Fingon
Feb 17th, 2002, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by harloo
I agree with Doublefault. What does that say about you as a person? Personally, I think saying you dislike a player because of their "fans" is a sorry excuse. You know the truth deep down. I can respect someone who says, I don't like a certain player moreso than someone who blames their dislike on the "fans".

I have favorites, but I have never disliked other players. Now, their actions are another story which is another discussion.

Really? you can judge a person in an internet message board of that person's preferences in sports???

typical, thinking you know the reasons behind what everyone likes or dislikes, if you don't like the Williams sisters, you have to be a racist period, if you don't like Mauresmo, you have to be homophobic.

That conceptualtion and judging a person you don't know and you have never met because of their sports preferences tell me more about you as a person than my reasons for not liking certain players.

Big Fat Pink Elephant
Feb 17th, 2002, 09:44 PM
:wavey: Mel! I like you too! :bounce:

Martian Mel
Feb 17th, 2002, 09:50 PM
Í'm glad you do Marri;)

Btw i never dislike a player because i don't like their fans on this board.That would be pretty stupid:mad:

Jovon
Feb 17th, 2002, 09:53 PM
Do you ever dislike a player because you don't like their fans on this board?

GET REAL, I think you never really liked the player, so you dislike their fans!:rolleyes:


Well.. I can honestly say that I don't. But I feel that a couple of persons don't like me bcoz of the tennisplayer I like... *sigh*

Excellent point Marri.:)

RockSteady
Feb 17th, 2002, 09:54 PM
No.

However...

I have never liked the Williams sisters, but the fans on these boards have helped reinforce that notion.

Big Fat Pink Elephant
Feb 17th, 2002, 09:56 PM
Thanks Jovon! :)

jrj
Feb 17th, 2002, 09:57 PM
here's the deal I believe some think they don't feel this way but actually don't want to admit it, fine.
However after being part of this and the other board for 2 and a half years some fan bases can really piss you off. I have to admit after being called a "racist" for not liking the Williams (who I used to like up until IW of last year) and for not liking Zina Garrison's commentating you tend to like the Williams sisters a little less.
I don't want to get into a race thing here but I don't agree that the Williams are the only players out there disliked for the color of their skin. I'm sure their are fans who don't like the Williams for being black but they are not alone.

Bright Red
Feb 17th, 2002, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by harloo
Personally, I think saying you dislike a player because of their "fans" is a sorry excuse. You know the truth deep down. I can respect someone who says, I don't like a certain player moreso than someone who blames their dislike on the "fans".

There's truth in that post. harloo has read my mind.

The players have no control over their fan base. Therefore, there can be no logic nor justification for disliking them because of their fans. You must've not liked the player in the first place.

Halardfan
Feb 17th, 2002, 10:14 PM
I think its bound to have some influence, and indeed it can work both ways.

If you grow to like certain posters I think its natural to like to see their faves do well...and if certain posters drive you up the wall, and are always boastful and arrogant about their favourite player, and put down your fave, then its not a surprise if you kinda want their fave to lose to put them in their place.

If you follow me. Im not sure I do...

Anyway its an entirely normal reaction, and much more common than some might think...

Fingon
Feb 17th, 2002, 10:15 PM
and since when you need logic or justification to like or dislike someone or something?

liking or dislking is an emotion, not a result of a logical process, you don't analize facts and come to the conclusion you don't like a player, you simply don't and you may try to understand what you do.

My main reason for not liking Venus is because she is a power player, is there logic on it?, is there logic on me not liking power?, do I need logic?, life is't not only numbers and equations, some people like blonds some brunettes, some like the opposite sex, some the same, there is and it doesn't have to be logic on that, I don't need to justify what I like or dislike, and reasoning on it won't change how I feel.

Some people also read too much in liking or disliking, if I don't like a player because of her fans, so what? nobody is threatening to harm that player, it's just not liking that player, some people make it look as it's a terrible sin.

Now tell me, how much more logic is to dislike a player because you don't like her game than because you don't like her fans? huh? You can say if you don't like her game it's fine, but why I don't like her game? what kind of logic there is there?

irma
Feb 17th, 2002, 10:18 PM
You can also feel sorry for a player that she has certain fans. that happened with me, because I know for sure this player would be upset if she knew what some of her so called "fans" write but lucky for her she doesn`t(I hope)

Giuliano
Feb 17th, 2002, 10:21 PM
no, it's stupid. I don't dislike any player. It's just a kind of game I don't really appreciate. Nothing personal.

GrandSlammed
Feb 17th, 2002, 10:22 PM
It's easy to be judgemental, but we have valid points. Example- a link of a Williams fans chat room was posted doing the Emilie and Venus game this week on this board because the scoreboard was not working. Some nice Venus fans decided to make international phones calls to the tournament every 5 minutes for updates. Some people on this board decided to come in and throw racial slurs at us, at Venus, the Williams family and black people in general. Yes, they came from this board.
Victory1... I came into the chat, as Venus was finishing off Mauresmo, and STILL saw with my own eyes things like, "F-ck you n*gger", "Shutup n*gger" being said.:rolleyes: This isn't the first time, the basTURDS and bytches from THIS messageboard, invaded a Williams fan chat, and spewed their racial hatred.... and you know it won't be the last.
Till you have to fight that type of prejudice, don't preach to us!
AND shut the FLUCK up!! Cause some of the VERY ones, who are complaining, who will complain about Williams fans in this thread, were most likely the ones who were spouting, "n*gger this", and "n*gger that" in the chatroom the other day.

Bright Red
Feb 17th, 2002, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by Fingon
and since when you need logic or justification to like or dislike someone or something?

liking or dislking is an emotion, not a result of a logical process, you don't analize facts and come to the conclusion you don't like a player, you simply don't and you may try to understand what you do.

You seem to really dislike logic, Fingon:).

That's my point. Because there's no logic in disliking a player because of the fans, then you must've disliked the player all along. Similarly if you don't like a player because you don't like her game, I would think the same holds true. You don't like the player regardless of her game.

I want to be clear on an important point. To dislike a player IS NOT the same as not having a player as a fave. For example, some Hingis Fans are not Seles fans, but they don't dislike Seles. OTOH some dislike Jennifer.

So if you actively dislike a player because of her fans or her game, then it's most likely that you never liked her in the first place.

Giuliano
Feb 17th, 2002, 10:40 PM
[i]
So if you actively dislike a player because of her game, then it's most likely that you never liked her in the first place. [/B]


I don't know if that's necessarily true. Take for instance Coetzer. For some people she is boring to watch but well she's a very nice person. I don't dislike her at all.

Bright Red
Feb 17th, 2002, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by Julien
I don't know if that's necessarily true. Take for instance Coetzer. For some people she is boring to watch but well she's a very nice person. I don't dislike her at all.

That's right, Julien. So you are someone who dislikes her game but do not dislike her. That's probably common.

What I'm saying is that if you disliked Coetzer and claimed that it's only because of her game, then you actually would dislike her regardless.

disposablehero
Feb 17th, 2002, 10:46 PM
Oh hell yeah!

Then there are players who start out acting like crap, and grow up long before their fans do.

jrj
Feb 17th, 2002, 10:46 PM
trust me if she started to win slams she would be hated. How many anti-Jen threads were there before last year? Either Jen became a really bad person last year or she became a threat to certain people's favorite players.

Jorn
Feb 17th, 2002, 10:47 PM
Jeg kan også lide marri, even I don't like her fav. ;)

And the reason I don't like her fave is bcoz of some posters on this and the other board.

btw, I won't mention any names, but one poster has post in her a few times... ;)

Giuliano
Feb 17th, 2002, 10:49 PM
Oh ok Bright Red. I misunderstood you. Sorry.

Kart
Feb 17th, 2002, 10:49 PM
No, but I can see how someone might.

I've come to respect a lot more players because of what I have learned about them from their fans though.

Fingon
Feb 17th, 2002, 10:58 PM
I've never said I dislike a player only because of her fans

I like logic, and I like to use logic in all important decisions of my life, which doesn't include what player I like or dislike.

I think one of the fundamentals of logic is to be applied to viable cases, it's the famous if a=b and b=c then a=c, great, but only if a is really = b, if it happens that a isn't = b then the whole logic of the solution is bullshit, if you really understand logic you must know it's not applicable to everything in life, I am a computer programmer so I know a little about logic and that's the reason I don't give it more importance that it really has.

You are also confusing disliking the player with disliking the person, you say if you dislike the player's game you probably dislike the player all along, huh?

I dislike Monica Seles' game, a lot, and I like her a lot as a person, and I am happy when she wins (except when she beats my favourites), but I wouldn't pay to see her matches.

You can't tell me if I don't like a player because of her game that I don't like the player regardless of her game, that's were your "logic" fails, you can't apply the same thinking pattern you have to me, do you know me? do you know what my favourite colour is? my favourite movie?, how can you judge my inner motivations?, I live in a free country and that means that as long as I don't break the law, I can think the way I want, for the reasons that suit my ass, that collective thinking doesn't reflect human nature, that's why comunism failed, you can't set up thinking patterns, you can't explain other people's feelings, emotions or behaviours based on your own.

It seems to me, and correct me if I understood you wrong, you think this way:
a) he doesn't like Venus Williams' game
b) when someone doesn't like a players game doesn't like the player all along (that's your first wrong assumption)
c) based on the above, he doesn't like Venus Williams
d) Venus Williams is black
e) everyone dislike her because she is black (second wrong assumption)
f) he dislikes her because she is black
g) He is a racist (that would be true if "f" was true).

as you see, the logic can't be applied when the assumptions are wrong.

Bright Red
Feb 17th, 2002, 10:58 PM
I think you have to really get in touch with your inner self to answer these types of questions.

Would you really let someone else's behavior affect your feelings towards someone else who's totally innocent of causing that behavior? Honestly.

Bright Red
Feb 17th, 2002, 11:02 PM
Fingon my last post was not replying to your post. I will reply.

(You really seem to be filled with angst)

Fingon
Feb 17th, 2002, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by Bright Red
I think you have to really get in touch with your inner self to answer these types of questions.

Would you really let someone else's behavior affect your feelings towards someone else who's totally innocent of causing that behavior? Honestly.

well, I know my inner self pretty well, do you?

someone is totally innocent? of what? what does it have to do with anything? we are not in a trial, it's not about deciding the player's fate, it's about liking her or not.

Feelings? I don't have feelings towards tennis players, I have emotions, tennis is a sport, not human relationships.

I certainly don't need to make an appointment with an analyst to determine why I don't like a certain player. it's quite simple, I don't like this player, I don't find pleasure watching her, I don't watch her, I like this player, I like watching her, I watch her.

Would I let someone's behaviour affect my "feelings"? sure, why not? would I let someone tell me how I should build my "feelings", hell no.

jrj
Feb 17th, 2002, 11:06 PM
you also have to think about it. If you get branded a "racist" every time you say word 1 bad about a Williams you may like them less. Also certain Hingis fans do the same thing for her, some the opposite like I said about Fingon.

disposablehero
Feb 17th, 2002, 11:07 PM
Well, Bright Red, for one thing the person posting represents the player for you to some extent. As many have said, we DON'T really know these players, but we do interact directly with these fans. It's only natural that if the only thing you can associate firsthand to the player is unpleasant, you are more likely to have an unpleasant view of the player.

Fingon
Feb 17th, 2002, 11:19 PM
I have an interesting story.

in 1999, a disposable hero told me on icq that I would like Justine Henin and adviced me to follow her. He knew the type of player I like and he knew Justine fit that.

I had never seen her, I had never heard of her, in that time I only followed Martina Hingis and didn't care about the other players.

Following disposable's suggestion, I started to follow her and when I had a chance I watched her and I was thrilled by her game, I just found it beatiful to watch and she quickly become one of my favourites.

With the time, I could watch her more and more and found her game is exactly the type of game I love to see, and I liked her determination and the fact she always wants to attack, so, she become my # 1 favourite.

Her skin colour, how she looks, her nationality or sexual prefernces didn't and don't concern me. Sure you can find logic in me liking her because I like her game, but why do I like that style of game? what's the logic on that?

Bright Red
Feb 17th, 2002, 11:28 PM
Fingon

I never accused you of disliking a person only because of her game. I'd appreciate it if you would refrain from putting words in my mouth.

Also, I was joking about the logic statement so there's no need to get up in arms over it (did you not see the smiley ?)

You accuse me of not having my assumptions straight about this. Well I think you're the one who's mixing things around. I'd even go as far as to say that you share in the confusion you hope to create.

I think I made it clear in this thread that I was using a precise definition of 'dislike'. This is definition fits some of the sentiments used to describe what is currently being expressed about Jennifer Capriati. People dislike Jennifer.

YOUR 'dislike' of Venus is altogether different (or I would hope). YOUR dislike is pretty much equivalent of not wanting to watch her play. That is not disliking Venus (to me, at least), that's disliking her game and disliking to see her play. That's very different from calling her a 'horse-faced whatever'. If there's anything else about your dislike of Venus, then you'll have to explain.

So YOUR definition of 'dislike' does not have the same meaning as the dislike I clarified for you above.

I won't even address your point about racism because it was unnecessary, inappropriate, and ineffective in getting whatever point you were trying to make across.

Don't talk down to me, because I see right through the smoke you're trying to blow up our hindquarters, and I happen to know a bit of logic too.

Bright Red
Feb 17th, 2002, 11:32 PM
Furthermore Fingon

I've noticed that you seem to like Dementiava. She has a power game too. What is it about her game that you like watching, but not Venus?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.;)

disposablehero
Feb 17th, 2002, 11:34 PM
He likes her legs.

Bright Red
Feb 17th, 2002, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by disposablehero
He likes her legs.

LOL@DH

But I'm starting to wonder if it has more to do with Venus.

Martian KC
Feb 17th, 2002, 11:37 PM
LOL! Legs, thighs, buttocks, etc.:rolleyes: ;)

VS Fan
Feb 17th, 2002, 11:37 PM
To Fingon:

I agree with you about Justine. Although I am a die-hard Serena fan, with Venus a close second, Justine is a joy to watch.
Her one handed backhand is almost indescrible, fluid, at sharp angles that are unreturnable. While she is not beautiful, she is cute and gets tremendous power from her small frame. A little known secret is that her fore hand is also excellent.

I also love to see Martina Hingis play when she has her game together. Martina vs Venus have been some of the most exciting matches in the last few years. Contrasting styles, but most of the time a battle until the last point. AO 2001 a BIG exception.
I actually felt bad when Martina lost to Jennifer after having such a big lead in the AO 2002. But she has her form back and should win more tourneys this year. (Maybe the FO???)

disposablehero
Feb 17th, 2002, 11:41 PM
Bright Red, what would liking Elena have to do with Venus?

Gallofa
Feb 17th, 2002, 11:41 PM
I think some people take things too seriously. Fingon is absolutely right, there is no such thing as logic when it comes to liking and disliking. You simply like or dislike someone, it's a gut feeling, and then, you can try to put tags to that, and be rational about it, as if that made any difference.

Most of the well known players, I've known and seen and I have my own views, things people in here say about them have a very small effect on that opinion, but sometimes they do. If a thoroughly horrible person in here (or WTA) likes a certain player, I might ask myself, what is this person seeing in that player? and be more cautious ;) - of course it also works the other way around, when someone you don't like has wonderful fans, I also wonder, what am I not seeing about this player? because all this wonderful people seem to like her.

With the lesser known players, that you've only seen once or twice and know virtually nothing about, it's mostly about their fans, the only input you get is through their fans, and of course they influence you.

We think by relating subjects and ideas.

Horrible fans + horrible cheering threads + bad attitudes + unknown player = ?

You tell me what image forms in your mind about that player. And yeah, look deep within yourself and get in touch with your roots, or whatever ;) lol

Jovon
Feb 17th, 2002, 11:46 PM
In most fan bases in any sport, you have psychos, nice, mean, ignorant, obnoxious, hateful, intelligent, childish, small-minded, knowledgeable people. So how can you say you don’t like a player because of their fans unless you are lumping a whole fan base together, which is just as stupid and small-minded as not liking a player because their fan says something you do not like, when that player has absolutely nothing to do with it. There has got to be something else there.:confused:

barmaid
Feb 17th, 2002, 11:46 PM
Well, after reading a few of the replies I was going to comment very favorably on the tolerance of fans who support their tennis stars very amicably and polite towards each other on this board...but then came GrandSlammed with all his gutter profanity and racism...and I have seen it on another board...that the William's fans are too biased in their supposedly support of the SISTAS...they are too defensive..too sensitive...and ultimately too irrational .....it all becomes racial to them and for THAT they are to be pitied!! They, and they alone stand out among the most beligerant of fans!! Now, I have not noticed it so much on this board....but then there is always some "skunk" to spoil it all for the rest of the great and polite supportive Williams' fans!! :rolleyes:
barmaid:wavey:

Bright Red
Feb 17th, 2002, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by Gallofa
And yeah, look deep within yourself and get in touch with your roots, or whatever ;) lol

Nice touch, Gallofa.

Bright Red
Feb 17th, 2002, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by Jovon
In most fan bases in any sport, you have psychos, nice, mean, ignorant, obnoxious, hateful, intelligent, childish, small-minded, knowledgeable people. So how can you say you don’t like a player because of their fans unless you are lumping a whole fan base together, which is just as stupid and small-minded as not liking a player because their fan says something you do not like, when that player has absolutely nothing to do with it. There has got to be something else there.:confused:

Well said. It's just lying to yourself if you don't acknowledge that there has to be more to it.

If it were true that fans alone can swing your opinion of a player, chances are you'd have to switch faves, because all faves have nutty fans. I doubt that anyone would change their faves just because of the way some of their co-fans behave.

Gallofa
Feb 17th, 2002, 11:53 PM
:p

lol - I just have no trouble admitting I can be small-minded, influenced by others, irrational and simply human :D

Sometimes I manage to get rid of all those things by myself, some others I might need someone else to point it out to me that I am being less than perfect :D (I have been known to be less that perfectly right and rational at least once a year over the last decade ;))

Fingon
Feb 17th, 2002, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by Bright Red
Fingon

I never accused you of disliking a person only because of her game. I'd appreciate it if you would refrain from putting words in my mouth.

I would appreciate exactly the same from you. I said I don't dislike Venus only because of her fans not game. You said that if you don't like a player because of her game it's because you don't like the player, not me.


Also, I was joking about the logic statement so there's no need to get up in arms over it (did you not see the smiley ?)

I didn't realize and if that's the case I apologize.


You accuse me of not having my assumptions straight about this. Well I think you're the one who's mixing things around. I'd even go as far as to say that you share in the confusion you hope to create.

nicely worded, could you tranlate it to plain english?

I think I made it clear in this thread that I was using a precise definition of 'dislike'. This is definition fits some of the sentiments used to describe what is currently being expressed about Jennifer Capriati. People dislike Jennifer.
I didn't see the name of Capriati before in this thread, it happens I dislike Capriati but in her case it has nothing to do with her fans

YOUR 'dislike' of Venus is altogether different (or I would hope). YOUR dislike is pretty much equivalent of not wanting to watch her play. That is not disliking Venus (to me, at least), that's disliking her game and disliking to see her play. That's very different from calling her a 'horse-faced whatever'. If there's anything else about your dislike of Venus, then you'll have to explain.

I certainly have no opinions/feelings/emotions towards Venus as a person, I don't know her, and the same applies to my own favourite. I have a "feeling" that Justine is a great person, but it's only a guts feeling, I have nothing to back it up, I don't have any feeling with Venus probably because I don't follow her, I can't judge her or any other player and certainly, I would never call Venus or another player a "horse-faced" (btw, I've never heard that before about her but I might have missed it).


So YOUR definition of 'dislike' does not have the same meaning as the dislike I clarified for you above.

Well, my understanding is this is a tennis message board, and as it, it's about tennis players and their game. I didn't read anything from you or anybody else saying that but again, I might have missed it and if that was the case I apologize, it did seem to me you were referring to the people in this thread that, like me say the fans influenced them in their liking/disliking of a player.

I won't even address your point about racism because it was unnecessary, inappropriate, and ineffective in getting whatever point you were trying to make across.
not really, again, I may have assumed you were like most of the others and in that case I would be making the same mistake I critized, assuming what other people think.

However, in my long experience dealing with that matter, racism is always there, if you don't like Venus and Serena you are labelled as a racist, not by everyone but by certain people.

When you said I really should analize my motivations for not liking Venus, I understood you were implying the real motivation was racism, again I might have been wrong and if I was then I apologize, however, the point using racism illustrates well the line of thinking, whether racism was in your mind or not, the idea of assuming other people's motivations and the idea of applying logic to where logic can't be applied.

Don't talk down to me, because I see right through the smoke you're trying to blow up our hindquarters, and I happen to know a bit of logic too.

what exactly do you see through the smoke?, if you happen to know a bit of logic, then you used the word logic in a wrong context and you know (or should know) that.

Fingon
Feb 17th, 2002, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by Gallofa
:p

lol - I just have no trouble admitting I can be small-minded, influenced by others, irrational and simply human :D



Gallofa, you said in a few words what I have tried (unsuccesfully) to say in like 10 long posts.

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 12:02 AM
I won't explain something that's written in proper English. Read it again. It's clear enough.

Now that we see that the dislike of Jennifer as expressed in the other threads is quite different from the dislike of seeing someone play, I think my argument is clear that there has to have been something more than the fans to cause such feelings.

Also, why do you like E. Dementiava and not Venus? Seems to me that Venus 'Bagel' Williams seems to know what to do with her power.

harloo
Feb 18th, 2002, 12:03 AM
Thanks Rocksteady for being honest, I really respect that.

Fingon please! I did not say that if you don't like the Williams your are racist or if you don't like Mauresmo you are homophobic. I don't agree with that at all, so don't assume such a thing. I don't care what you say, or how you attempt to sugar coat it if you dislike a player because of their fans then that's a lame excuse.

Oh and you know what type of person I am? Really? O.k.:rolleyes: what ever ya say buddy.;) I stand by my post, it's just my opinion that's all. If you are offended then OH WELL, this is only an INTERNET MESSAGE BOARD.

disposablehero
Feb 18th, 2002, 12:04 AM
Bright Red, you have failed to answer MY question.

Were you just posturing before, or do you actually have an theory you can express?

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 12:05 AM
Sorry, DH. Could you repeat it?

disposablehero
Feb 18th, 2002, 12:06 AM
You said Fingon liking Dementieva had more to do with Venus than Elena's legs. Could you elaborate?

Jovon
Feb 18th, 2002, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by Gallofa

lol - I just have no trouble admitting I can be small-minded, influenced by others, irrational and simply human

Well, give that feat to the fans, and don't hold it against the player!:rolleyes: ;)

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 12:08 AM
It could be because Venus wins more than Dementiava. That's what I was implying. Did you have something else in mind?

disposablehero
Feb 18th, 2002, 12:13 AM
I have no idea what you are talking about. A good section of fans don't deliberately pick losers. Is Elena winning less than Venus the reason you think Fingon likes her? Do you think maybe if Elena started winning a few Slams, Fingon would learn to dislike her?

BTW, since you keep calling her "Dementiava", yopu clearly don't have a strong knowledge of this particular player.

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by disposablehero
Well, Bright Red, for one thing the person posting represents the player for you to some extent. As many have said, we DON'T really know these players, but we do interact directly with these fans. It's only natural that if the only thing you can associate firsthand to the player is unpleasant, you are more likely to have an unpleasant view of the player.

DH, the posters in no way represent the player to me. Not even slightly. For example, there are some JCap fans I enjoy a lot. Others, I ignore. That has no effect on how I feel about Jennifer.

I've answered your question. See if you can get Fingon to answer mine.

Fingon
Feb 18th, 2002, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by Bright Red


You seem to really dislike logic, Fingon:).

That's my point. Because there's no logic in disliking a player because of the fans, then you must've disliked the player all along. Similarly if you don't like a player because you don't like her game, I would think the same holds true. You don't like the player regardless of her game.

I want to be clear on an important point. To dislike a player IS NOT the same as not having a player as a fave. For example, some Hingis Fans are not Seles fans, but they don't dislike Seles. OTOH some dislike Jennifer.

So if you actively dislike a player because of her fans or her game, then it's most likely that you never liked her in the first place.

I finally found were you mentioned Jennifer, you mention her name along with Seles and Hingis, you only say that some Hingis fans dislike Jennifer, I don't see how it relates to your point.

Now that we see that the dislike of Jennifer as expressed in the other threads is quite different from the dislike of seeing someone play, I think my argument is clear that there has to have been something more than the fans to cause such feelings.


Now you are saying that the dislike of Jennifer is quite different from the dislike of seeing someone play, well, you didn't say that at first, you mention Jennifer as an example, but you didn't say you were talking about that kind of dislike.

And in the first part of this quote you can see where you said that if you dislike a player because of her fans or game you've must dislike that player all along, see? I didn't put words in your mouth, you said that but with your fingers typing not with your mouth.

About the Dementieva thing, I believe you didn't understand a word of what I say, I like Dementieva, so? I don't need a logical explanation for that, I just like her, what's wrong with that? that's coherent with the way I see it, if I like her, I like her and I don't need "logical" reasons for that, simple. You once again assumed that my like for Dementieva has more to do with Venus huh?

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 12:19 AM
I simply want to know the reason, DH. Is that so bad?

Gimme a break about the name. I bet she couldn't spell mine.

disposablehero
Feb 18th, 2002, 12:20 AM
Well, you said the reason has to do with Venus. You implied a direct link between the two. I am still waiting for a sensible explanation of that statement.

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 12:28 AM
About the Dementieva thing, I believe you didn't understand a word of what I say, I like Dementieva, so? I don't need a logical explanation for that, I just like her, what's wrong with that? that's coherent with the way I see it, if I like her, I like her and I don't need "logical" reasons for that, simple. You once again assumed that my like for Dementieva has more to do with Venus huh?

I won't go around in circles with you on this Fingon. I stated that disliking is not the same as not having as a fave. Then I used the expression "actively dislike". That should be clear enough.

Are you saying that you dislike Venus in the same way that some posters dislike Jenn in the other thread? If you can see the difference, then, like it or not, you also see my point.

I brought up Dementiava because you said that you don't like Venus because Venus has a power game. I didn't need logic to answer that one because you said it yourself. Elena has a power game too, but you don't dislike her. So you see, you're helping to support my opinion that there has to be something else about Venus (that she has or lacks) that causes you to not like her, otherwise you wouldn't like Elena either.

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 12:29 AM
Originally posted by disposablehero
Well, you said the reason has to do with Venus. You implied a direct link between the two. I am still waiting for a sensible explanation of that statement.

Venus wins. Elena doesn't.

Is that clear enough for you?

disposablehero
Feb 18th, 2002, 12:34 AM
Not a clue. Fingon likes Elena, and has since seeing her in the 2000 IW Semis against Lindsay.

I'm not entirely sure if there is a rule somewhere saying that someone who only likes 3 players has to make Venus one of them.

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by disposablehero
Not a clue. Fingon likes Elena, and has since seeing her in the 2000 IW Semis against Lindsay.

I'm not entirely sure if there is a rule somewhere saying that someone who only likes 3 players has to make Venus one of them.

But there's a difference between not having Venus as a fave and disliking Venus. Fingon has stated that he dislikes Venus.

Crazy Canuck
Feb 18th, 2002, 12:37 AM
Well I'm glad to say that I manage to distinguish the difference between a player, and their fans.

Its not a players fault, a small number of their fans practice being obnoxious for a living.

I'm certaintly not going to hate a player for that.

I don't know the players, thus I fail to see how I can dislike any of them :confused:

If I was going to dislike a player everytime one of their fans acted up, I wouldn't be able to like any players - cause every fan base has its nut cracker :p

disposablehero
Feb 18th, 2002, 12:37 AM
Maybe he does. Deal with it.

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by disposablehero
Maybe he does. Deal with it.

DH, don't get upset. I don't have to deal with it. Remember, my position in this thread is that fans don't sway my opinion of the players.

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by Becca
If I was going to dislike a player everytime one of their fans acted up, I wouldn't be able to like any players - cause every fan base has its nut cracker :p

How true.

Fingon
Feb 18th, 2002, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by Bright Red


I won't go around in circles with you on this Fingon. I stated that disliking is not the same as not having as a fave. Then I used the expression "actively dislike". That should be clear enough.

well, I don't see the relation with what I said but nevermind.


Are you saying that you dislike Venus in the same way that some posters dislike Jenn in the other thread? If you can see the difference, then, like it or not, you also see my point.

Now who is putting words in the others' mouth? please tell me exactly where I said that.

I brought up Dementiava because you said that you don't like Venus because Venus has a power game. I didn't need logic to answer that one because you said it yourself. Elena has a power game too, but you don't dislike her. So you see, you're helping to support my opinion that there has to be something else about Venus (that she has or lacks) that causes you to not like her, otherwise you wouldn't like Elena either.

let me try to explain it once more, the psychological process that makes someone like or dislike something or someone is very complex, and I don't think anyone really understands that, it has to be with many factors. I said I like Monica Seles and I don't like her game. Your point that "there have to been something else about Venus" and applying "logic" to say that as a conclusion I shouldn't like Elena either is again based on wrong assumptions, that I only like or dislike based exclusively on the game. You can separate the different factors to make the analisys more clear (that's what analisys precisely is) but you can't ignore they interact and made a whole. If you analyze a person's blood only, you can't make a diagnosis based exclusively on that, and you can't say the person's eyes colour through that, you need the whole picture.

to answer you Dementieva question more in deep, I do like the way she looks, and I like her freshness, I am not particulary a fan of her game and I certainly don't like her the way I like Justine or Martina.

And I do like (or admire) some things in Venus, her mental strenght, her determination to win, those factors alone are not enough to make me "like her", again there is subjectivity here, and if you want to call me superficial because I like Dementieva's look, go ahead.

disposablehero
Feb 18th, 2002, 12:41 AM
Well, maybe if Fingon dislikes Venus, some of that may have to do with his interactions with her fans. It took me a long time to get "neutral" to Venus. If her fans had been a little more civilized, I could have gotten there a half year sooner.

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by Fingon
My main reason for not liking Venus is because she is a power player, is there logic on it?, is there logic on me not liking power?, do I need logic?

Those are your original words, Fingon. You did say you don't like Venus because of her power.

In the future, either say what you mean or mean what you say.

disposablehero
Feb 18th, 2002, 12:47 AM
Ah, now Fingon is being called a liar.

This would demonstrate the kind of fan I was referring to.

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 12:48 AM
I am not calling Fingon a liar.

harloo
Feb 18th, 2002, 12:51 AM
disposable I just think that's an excuse alot of people hide behind . You really know the truth inside, and if you don't like a certain player then that's fine. It's nothing wrong with that, but to try to blame it on someone else makes no sense at all.

Fingon
Feb 18th, 2002, 12:51 AM
I really think you have problems reading
let me quote myself again

[quote]My main reason for not liking Venus is because she is a power player, is there logic on it?, is there logic on me not liking power?, do I need logic?

I added a different colour and size the the word main to see if this time you can see it.

You didn't tell me when I said I dislike Jennifer the same way I dislike Venus.

And in your last post, you are implying I denied not liking Venus because of her power, I never said that. do the words main, mainly, specially, exclusively have any meaning to you?
I didn't deny not liking Venus because of her power, I said that's NOT THE ONLY REASON, can you see the difference?

disposablehero
Feb 18th, 2002, 12:52 AM
"In the future either say what you mean or mean what you say"

That sounds like an accusation to me.

There are several brands of Williams fans. The kind nobody can stand is the ones who need to find a hidden agenda in everything. Some of JenCap's fans are starting to learn from them.

disposablehero
Feb 18th, 2002, 12:56 AM
Harloo, JRJ started this thread. I am in it. If I didn't actually feel the way JRJ described, why would I bother.

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 12:59 AM
My whole point is that because there is no logical explanation for putting fan and fave in the same boat, then there must be an underlying reason for not liking that person to begin with. Those reasons could include the player beating your fave, for example, or swearing on court and showing a bad attitude. Those are probably the underlying reasons for disliking a player.

Another thing. The word 'dislike' is being used loosely around here. I think that few posters really dislike a player they don't know. I think that some posters would really, really, really like to see a player lose so that the fans of that fave will be very, very, very upset. That doesn't mean that they dislike the player.

That's just how I think. Also, I recognize that some people need no reason whatsoever to dislike someone, or even hate them for that matter.

disposablehero
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:02 AM
OK, Fingon is going to be upset at me now.

I DISLIKE Justine. And it is SPECIFICALLY because of one of her fans. There you go. Anyone who was on Sanex board last January knows what I am talking about.

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:03 AM
Fingon

Here you go again trying to talk down. I know you used the word main. I asked for additional reasons, but you provided none. You fled behind your cloud of "logic can't explain it". But I think I know the reason.

You are not reading my posts because I didn't accuse you of disliking Venus in the same way as others dislike Jennifer. Read it again.

DH, if Fingon doesn't have a problem with it, you shouldn't either.

Celeste
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:06 AM
I am a big fan of Serena, but was always rather neutral about Venus, i.e. I never really cared if she won or lost, though I like Lindsay more and am hoping Lindsay takes her soon! But some Venus fans get on my last nerve, *a few* of them, I just hate their posts and attitude and the like, and I'm only saying a few because I like most of them. So it has become, a little bit, that I root against Venus in a lot of matches I normally wouldn't care either way about. I'm trying to fight it because I should view Venus based on my own thoughts. Opposite for Hingis, I used to despise her, now I'm sort of neutral, but I think I would have neutral a lot sooner but for once again, a few of her fans. But only a few! And, to round it out, I saw Mauresmo in person and thought she was very overrated and didn't like her game at all (though she seemed very nice) and was thoroughly unimpressed, but she has so many loyal fans here, I'm neutral and/or kind of root for her though I don't think much of her game!

Good topic!

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:06 AM
Fingon

Notice that I never said you said the "only" reason you dislike Venus is because of her power.

(Don't you just love these senseless debates)

harloo
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:07 AM
Um....ok.....:rolleyes: disposable. We all know you are in this thread. And um......?????:confused: :confused:

Just my opinion! ;)

Fingon
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:08 AM
Originally posted by Bright Red


Are you saying that you dislike Venus in the same way that some posters dislike Jenn in the other thread? If you can see the difference, then, like it or not, you also see my point.


Ok, I am quoting you again, did you say that or not?

disposablehero
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by Celeste
I'm trying to fight it because I should view Venus based on my own thoughts. Opposite for Hingis, I used to despise her, now I'm sort of neutral, but I think I would have neutral a lot sooner but for once again, a few of her fans.

Good topic!

Celeste, you are talking about the EXACT same thing as me. I am sick of people like you or I being told that we don't actually think the way we do.

Fingon
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:10 AM
Originally posted by Bright Red
Fingon

Notice that I never said you said the "only" reason you dislike Venus is because of her power.

(Don't you just love these senseless debates)

well, I really have problems to understand you then, why do you quote me saying something and then telling me to mean what I say or say what I mean?

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:12 AM
Fingon

I used that paragraph to explain difference in the way you are using the word 'dislike' as compared to the way I was using it.

I am using it in the strong sense of the word. You aren't.

Vanity
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:14 AM
shut up already

Fingon
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:14 AM
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

disposablehero
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:15 AM
Fingon, I think he means that you should mainly mean what you mainly say or mainly say what you mainly mean.

Or some damn thing like that.

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:16 AM
Fingon

I am beginning to think this may be a problem of comprehension. I'll rephrase my original statement in an effort to make my point clear.

"There's no logic in a person hating a player just because of the way the fans act. They must hate the player regardless"

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:19 AM
Look. We won't get anywhere with this Fingon. The side comments from DH aren't helping much, either.

Bottom line, I'm able to separate fan from fave. Others claim that they aren't. I'll always believe that there's something more.

disposablehero
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:19 AM
Did he say "hate". My understanding was that word has a different meaning than dislike. Of course, English is only my first language.

disposablehero
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:21 AM
Bright Red, let me ask you something. Were you on the Sanex board?

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:23 AM
I rephrased it using a stronger word than dislike so that Fingon would get the point.
:rolleyes:

disposablehero
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:25 AM
Why? Because I am asking. Do you not remember whether you were or not?

Fingon
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:26 AM
well, if you introduce the word "hate", you are giving the whole issue a complete different perspective, the word "hate" was never mentioned in this thread and I certainly don't consider it a synonimous of "dislike"

This is your original statement
There's no logic in a person hating a player just because of the way the fans act. They must hate the player regardless"

Now let me use your same word, with some changes.

There's no logic sense in a person hating a player another person[/s] just because of the way the fans act. They must hate the player regardless"
worded that way, I agree, I think it's sick to hate someone you don't know, to hate someone you must have strong reasons and they certainly exceed the scope of a sport or a group of fans. I don't think the word "hate" is appropiate, you can say the maniac that stabbed Monica hated her, that man was/is sick and that's an important difference, I don't think this thread was intended in that sense, and I don't think the people who dislike Jennifer, or Venus hate them, most of them at least don't.

I certainly don't hate or love any player, that's not possible.

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:30 AM
And that is my point, Fingon. I used the word 'dislike' in the sense of some of the comments we were seeing about Jennifer. That is real dislike. I don't think fans of Jennifer can take other posters to the point of feeling that way about her.

I was also saying that I know that you don't feel that way about Venus.

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:31 AM
DH,

Now do you see why I introduced the word hate?:rolleyes:



(j/k about the roll eyes)

disposablehero
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:34 AM
Ok, you aren;t interested in answering. Good to see the guy who claims he's the only one being honest has decided to be evasive.

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:38 AM
DH,

Please don't start making personal attacks. If Fingon and I can go through this discussion in a civilized manner, then let me be.

Besides, I won't answer that question.:angel:

disposablehero
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:45 AM
Good, cling to your secrets while you question our honesty.

Now, let's pretend you weren't on the Sanex Board. I think its pretty fucking arrogant for someone who didn't read Fingon's 9000 or so posts there to judge him on his less than 400 here, and figure they are the only one smart enough to know what is going on inside his head.

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:48 AM
DH

In the presence of new material, I don't use past posts to judge a poster. And I am not judging Fingon.

Imelda
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:48 AM
No not really - but I'll hate a player if she screwed a guy before my fave did. Pfff my fave doesn't take anyone's sloppy seconds. ANYONE'S! :rolleyes:

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:52 AM
And FYI, DH

I see Fingon's point, I'm not sure I see yours.


(Try not to take that one personal)

Fingon
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:52 AM
well Bright Red, I I went to the beginning of this thread, I pressed <control>+F and typed "Jennifer", to search where she was mentioned before, and besides some signatures I found her only mentioned by Victory, and then by you the way I quoted you before.

There is no way I can know you are comparing with the way some people dislike Jennifer in another thread (that I didn't read btw) if you don't say so. So, My "misunderstanding" comes from the fact you were talking about the way people feel towards Jennifer, I sure you knew it but I certainly didn't if you didn't say plus it was related to another thread which I haven't read and I didn't see a reference to that thread either.

so, I hope you can understand that I couldn't understand what you meant, since the only way I can understand what you mean is if you say it, and the only way I can understand what you say is if you actually post it, if you don't, well, I took some courses on reading crystal balls but never could probably learn the damn thing.

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:59 AM
Fingon

I do understand. That's why I tried to clarify it early because I knew it was an important point. And it does explain why we didn't see eye to eye. But now we do, so I'm glad.

disposablehero
Feb 18th, 2002, 02:00 AM
My point is that I have no idea where you get off telling people what they think.

I'll take issue with what people do or what people say, but I'm a little too smart and not nearly arrogant enough to figure I know the decision making processes of strangers.

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 02:02 AM
Originally posted by Fingon
...since the only way I can understand what you mean is if you say it, and the only way I can understand what you say is if you actually post it, if you don't, well, I took some courses on reading crystal balls but never could probably learn the damn thing.

Now part of that sounds really familiar.

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 02:04 AM
DH

I can't believe it. This is the first time I've been in an argument without realizing it (and also without being angry:cool: ).

Please tell me exactly what has you so upset?

disposablehero
Feb 18th, 2002, 02:08 AM
Originally posted by Bright Red


Those are your original words, Fingon. You did say you don't like Venus because of her power.

In the future, either say what you mean or mean what you say.


I don't like my friends honesty questioned.

disposablehero
Feb 18th, 2002, 02:18 AM
Originally posted by Bright Red


There's truth in that post. harloo has read my mind.

The players have no control over their fan base. Therefore, there can be no logic nor justification for disliking them because of their fans. You must've not liked the player in the first place.

OK, this one really mystifies the shit out of me. You make a leap in logic that falls directly into a chasm.

No control over fan base=No logic or justification for disliking them due to fans

That much is true.

No logic or justification for disliking them due to fans= Must not have liked them in the first place

How do you determine that? People don't just decide how much they like someone then stay that way the rest of their life. I can say with some certainly I like you a lot less than I did a couple hours ago. What about Jennifer? I used to like her a little, then found out she was a miserable little bitch. Now I find myself liking her FANS less and less, because of their slavish defense of her. They didn't seem like bad people before, but much like you they do not want to allow people the right to dislike her.

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 02:20 AM
DH

I've already responded to that. I won't do it again. Let's not disrespect the other posters by getting bogged down in trifling discussions.

I fully understand why Fingon and I were misunderstanding each other. We're over it now. You should be, too.

disposablehero
Feb 18th, 2002, 02:26 AM
Fingon is a forgiving person. Call him a liar and he will get over it.

I'm still holding a grudge against the kid whole extorted my lunch money 22 years ago. And he's been dead for 10 years.

victory1
Feb 18th, 2002, 02:26 AM
I don't like most of the Hingis fans, but I also don't like Hingis. I don't like Jennifer, but like most of her fans except maybe 2, I like Seles but I dislike quite a few of her fans on this board.

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 02:39 AM
Originally posted by disposablehero
Fingon is a forgiving person. Call him a liar and he will get over it.

I'm still holding a grudge against the kid whole extorted my lunch money 22 years ago. And he's been dead for 10 years.

LOL@DH.

Well I'd better try real hard to get back on your good side ;)

Eza
Feb 18th, 2002, 03:03 AM
There is a Lindsay fan here that HATES Venus(Queenlinday) and Venus is my favorite player. I still like Lindsay and my feelings about her haven't changed because of one of her fans that happens to loathe my fav.

I guess my answer is no.

Fugee
Feb 18th, 2002, 03:28 AM
i started to like hingis
or respected her game and neutralised my hatred for her late last year
but since joining this board, hingis fans have really annoyed me with their disrespect for Monica!

williams fans and lindsay fans are respectful towards monica but hingis fans and jen cap fans arent on this board
dont know why
its a bit strange

marshmellow
Feb 18th, 2002, 04:37 AM
hmmm...no, i don't dislike a player becos of anything their fans do or say...

however, i find it harder to support a player whose fans take shots at the players i support...

also, if im friends with someone, then i'd start wishing for his or her fave to do well....

so basically i never let a player's fan base be the basis of my disliking anyone....but i allow it to help me like them sometimes....

destructo_girl
Feb 18th, 2002, 06:50 AM
No, I don't dislike players because of their fans.

But the fans might keep me from liking the player.

And other than that, I have found MOST Monica fans to be pretty friendly and respectful. Lindsay fans usually are.

Capriati fans are usually less nice. Not much tolerance for anyone, other than fellow Cap-fans. Of course, I have to stress the word, usually.

And there are two groups of Williams fans, that I have seen. One, spags on everyone who isn't a Williams. Takes any opportunity to kick Hingis while she's down. Points out faults of Davenport and Seles. Keeps stressing how crap Kournikova and Dokic are. Doesn't give credit to any other girls for beating Venus or Serena.
And then there are the ones, who are EXTRA classy. Nice, genuine fans, who can even be nice to their biggest adversaries, the Hingis-fans. Especially at the lowest points. Now THAT'S class.

And of course, I know that the Hingis-fans aren't all the greatest people, even if you happen to be cheering for the same fave.

So I know fans aren't necessarily a reflection of the player, herself. But if you meet a bunch of *bad* fans, you don't feel like keeping an open mind to join them.

jrj
Feb 18th, 2002, 11:25 AM
bright red, you've really proven my point thank you so much for posting.
The fact is you go on to try to paint fingon a hypocrite for liking Dementievia but not the Williams I can only guess why?
The same thing can be asked to Williams fans Jen and Lindsay play similar games to Venus and Serena so why do you tend to dislike Jen and Lindsay?

Williams Rulez
Feb 18th, 2002, 11:57 AM
To tell the truth, fans of a player do affect my perception of a player, but not by much.

There is a Lindsay fan that love to bash Venus and Serena, but I find that most of her fans are cool and I like to watch the way Lindsay plays, so I support Lindsay.

Justine fans may be nice and all, but her game does not appeal to me, so I do not support her.

I like Monica and most of her fans, so I support her!

Usually, the players I support have nice fans, so I can't really say that I dislike a player cause of her fans. But I used to be neutral to Hingis, but I don't know, there have been fans on the board that just annoy me cause they love to bash Venus and Serena, and though I seldom say it, I get annoyed. Subconciously, I link that to Martina and I must say I can root against Martina when that happens.

So fans do have an effect, but not really a great one.

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by jrj
bright red, you've really proven my point thank you so much for posting.
The fact is you go on to try to paint fingon a hypocrite for liking Dementievia but not the Williams I can only guess why?
The same thing can be asked to Williams fans Jen and Lindsay play similar games to Venus and Serena so why do you tend to dislike Jen and Lindsay?

jrj

I really don't see how I proved your point seeing that I've maintained that a player's fans can't make you actively dislike a player.

I wasn't accusing Fingon of being a hypocrite. I was asking him about his dislike of Venus's power game since he established it as a reason for his dislike of her (watching her, that is). He did state that he also dislikes Dementiava's power game but he likes watching her because he finds her attractive. I understand that now. Do you?

If I were to ask those Williams Fans who dislike Jenn why they don't like her, I think I know the answer. In fact, I think I could ask the same question to all posters on this board who dislike her, and I get pretty much the same answers. Few of them would say that they dislike her because of her fans (which is what you're saying). Virtually all of them will probably answer that it's something other than her fans (which is what I'm saying).

If this is somehow proving your point, then maybe you need to go back and change the title of this thread.

tia clara
Feb 18th, 2002, 04:55 PM
Yes.

RockSteady
Feb 18th, 2002, 05:54 PM
Bright Red, Fingon, you are both making very good points.

But here's my opinion on the matter...

Fans are one of many factors in liking/disliking a player

There are many reasons why. Some people like players who win all the time. Some route for the underdogs. Some like the pretty players. Some feel bad and go for the less attractive player. Some like power. Others like finesse. Some like laid-back, humble players. Some like cocky players. Some like black players because they are black. Some dislike black players because they are black (sad, but true).

However, I think the main reason we dislike players is because of our favorites. Let me explain.

I have been a big fan of Hingis since seeing her at the 2000 U.S. Open. She was amazing, and I was just getting into womens tennis. I became immediately attracted to her additude, game, and looks. But guess who she lost to? Venus Williams. Automatically I dislike Venus Williams because she just beat my favorite player. It's a simple rivalry type thing. Sixers fans hate the Lakers. Not because the Lakers are mean, or big or whatever, but because they are now rivals.

It's why I don't like Jen Cap. I liked her, but she has been beating Martina. Now I don't like her. Serena, Venus, Jennifer are Martina's rivals. It's the main reason why I route against them.

Not to say there aren't other reasons, because there are. I see some Venus/Capriati fans saying "Jen/Venus is perfect! They will crush Martina and win the next forty slams. Best ever!" When I see that, I hope they get double-bageled and cry whilst leaving the court, just to spite their fans. So fans do have a part, but it's hard to pinpoint one reason for disliking a player.

::whew:: :p That was long

brickhousesupporter
Feb 18th, 2002, 06:00 PM
Good post Rock Steady
You do have a point.

RockSteady
Feb 18th, 2002, 06:04 PM
Thanks. Let's admit...for Martina fans, Venus would be a lot easier to cheer for if Venus never beat her. And for Venus fans, Martina would be a lot easier to cheer for if Venus always won their match-ups.

apoet29
Feb 18th, 2002, 06:04 PM
I agree with RockSteady to a certain degree. Fans can play a role in liking or disliking a certain WTA player. Anyone who disputes that; disputes the power that fans wield in making or breaking a player's popularity. (i.e. The reason that Anna Kournikova was given a Gold Exempt Status this year was due, in large part, to her popularity).

But I am digressing here.

I don't see anything wrong with liking one particular player over another, yet I don't understand fans who automatically dislike (and in some cases) hate their favorite's rivals. To me, that is a silly way of thinking. Only one person is going to walk off the tennis court a winner. In some cases, it may be your favorite and in some cases, not. But that should not provide anyone with a reason to bash either player or abuse fans on the messageboard. I think, to a certain degree, fans live vicariously through their favorite player and as a result, they will defend that player by any means necessary. However, this really isn't necessary and often makes for hurt feelings on the part of others.

I realize that I am wishing for a utopian board where everyone respected each other, but that, unfortunately, will never happen.:sad:

irma
Feb 18th, 2002, 06:07 PM
lucky the biggest hater ever left the internet, it only makes me sad when I see that Monica fans use the name he probarly came up with :sad: (I don`t believe that doctrine of him was a joke)
and don`t say that mister ab wasn`t a hater, he called my fav a devil! that was the most shocking thing after the idiot who wanted Jaden Gil to die.(normally I would think they are the same, but ab announced big on google not to return again!)
what has this to do with the subject? well both hate my fav for something a self called fan freaking idiot did :fiery:

babsi
Feb 18th, 2002, 06:14 PM
Irma, I read that doctrine a long time ago and couldn't believe all the hate and anger inside, I know he is a one-off but I do believe he was for real.

If anybody wants to read the doctrine here is the link:

http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~broada/tennis/seles/doctrine.html

babsi
Feb 18th, 2002, 06:16 PM
OMFG I had not read it in a while and this bit is just pure crap

The same goes for Graf's son, Jaden Gil Agassi - he should never have been conceived, but no child should have to pay for the sins of his parents.



:fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery:

irma
Feb 18th, 2002, 06:20 PM
OMG I had not read it for a very long time either, he is even sicker as I thought:fiery:
The only thing I could a little laugh about is that he says that that selestials should pray for our salvation! It didn`t help very much till now;)

brickhousesupporter
Feb 18th, 2002, 06:22 PM
this is my favorite line form the Selesian DoctrineIn the name of the Father, and of the Daughter, and of the Holy Groundstrokes AH-EE

I was rolling on the floor with that one.

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by RockSteady
However, I think the main reason we dislike players is because of our favorites. Let me explain.

I have been a big fan of Hingis since seeing her at the 2000 U.S. Open. She was amazing, and I was just getting into womens tennis. I became immediately attracted to her additude, game, and looks. But guess who she lost to? Venus Williams. Automatically I dislike Venus Williams because she just beat my favorite player. It's a simple rivalry type thing. Sixers fans hate the Lakers. Not because the Lakers are mean, or big or whatever, but because they are now rivals.

RockSteady

I would have quoted your entire post because I honestly agree with just about all of it. I agree that perhaps the most common reason for dislike is rivalry. I think that when another player beats a fave, the fans start disliking the player. That's how it happens for me. That is the root cause of the dislike. And If that player's fans start rubbing it in, then I can see how one might feel they dislike that player even more. But there must have been dislike of the player to begin with (because they beat your fave, for example), otherwise it won't matter.

There are many players out there that I don't even notice. That's mainly because they pose no threat to my fave. I could care less what their fans say or do, I'm still going to be indifferent towards those players.

Jennifer is almost a special case, because she unfortunately can't control her on-court behavior. To me, that is a very understandable reason why some people really dislike her even if she hasn't beaten their fave (Venus Fans, for example). I can't think of another player with that reputation. And of course Jennifer has beaten some players (Hingis, for example), so she's disliked for that, too.

HAIL-VENUS
Feb 18th, 2002, 06:39 PM
NO, I've never and will never dislike a player because I dislike their fans. I look at each individual and if I have a chance to enteract with them, then I base my analysis on the quality of treatment they give me. If I only get to watch them on tv or read quotes from them in the media, then I have no choice but to form an opinion on how they respond to people and certain situations. Nobody can ever persuade my feelings about another person. I judge everyone by their own actions, as I hope to be judged by mine and not someone else's opinion of me. Therefore:

I missed the heat of battle, but I'm gonna state my true opinion as it fits me. First of all, Jennifer Capriati is just about the only player on tour that I disagree with as far as her actions on court, but besides that, I like her game and recent GS success. Once again, it's her attitude that turns me off with her, not her game. I'm still not sure if I really dislike her. I guess it depends on if she continues to act immaturely or not.

There was a time when I didn't like Martina Hingis because Venus lost a lot of matches to her and she was being "just as, if not more" cocky than Venus and Serena, but she wasn't expected to be thankful and greatful for the opportunity to play this great game of tennis, so she could basically say anything she wanted without being held accountable. I didn't agree with many of the things she said, but she was a teenager and is an adult now. She's been keeping quiet recently, so I can tolerate her a lot more. I actually have always thought she had a good game. I like to watch her play sometimes, but I really like when she and Venus go at it. It's always entertaining.

:wavey:

victory1
Feb 18th, 2002, 06:59 PM
Rocksteady-you're so right!! The 1st match I watched Venus play was the 1997 US Open Semi-Finals (the famous bump incident), I was so happy when she made the finals. So I watched the finals, Venus vs. Martina, I remember Martina was winning easily but in the 2nd set, she was acting very childish and in my opinion disrespectful. She was laughing and half hardily going after balls, even the commentators commented on it, I felt she was taking Venus for a joke. I disliked from that day on. I remember hoping to myself that one day their position would change and Venus will gain the upper hand.

disposablehero
Feb 18th, 2002, 07:01 PM
The Capriati example is actually an interesting one. There you find a player that you learn to dislike on your own, but yet the more her fans defend her actions, the more those actions stay fresh in your mind and feed your negative image of her.

HAIL-VENUS
Feb 18th, 2002, 07:14 PM
DH, I have to disagree with you on that one. It seems to me that Jennifer needs very little help from her fans to keep the negativity fresh on my mind. She handles that very well herself. I get a chance to "feed my negative image of her" every single time she steps on court lately. I rarely read or respond to her fans. Like I said before, I judge people by their own actions. I find it silly to be upset or angry with a player because their fans are defending them. If I'm upset with a player in the first place, then she/he must have done something to cause this.

veryborednow
Feb 18th, 2002, 07:17 PM
I used to not particularly like Venus cos she kept beating Jen, but I read Williamz_Rulez' signature and it hit a chord with me...

Don't bash Venus and Serena just because they beat your favorites

And it was exactly why I didn't. I can honestly say I like Venus now and have a much greater appreciation of all the players :)

disposablehero
Feb 18th, 2002, 07:19 PM
Indeed, but defensing the indefensible only goes to illustrate further how indefensible it is. And there is a certain degree of annoyance involved in hearing these sorts of denial.

HAIL-VENUS
Feb 18th, 2002, 07:42 PM
:wavey:Hehe, I got lost between one of those "defenses of the indefencibles":D, but you make a valid point. I just tend to get annoyed with the posters though, not Jen. I like nothing more than to defend Venus, so it's only natural that Jen's fans will defend her. I don't think it's fair for us to turn our annoyances with fellow posters on the players, but I get your point.

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by apoet29
...[f]ans can play a role in liking or disliking a certain WTA player. Anyone who disputes that; disputes the power that fans wield in making or breaking a player's popularity. (i.e. The reason that Anna Kournikova was given a Gold Exempt Status this year was due, in large part, to her popularity).

apoet29

The question is whether or not Anna's fans could cause you to dislike her (I am not accusing you of disliking Anna K, apoet29). I doubt that people who dislike Anna blame it on her fans (which is what this thread is asking).

harloo
Feb 18th, 2002, 08:08 PM
Hail Venus you must of read my mind or something. I agree with all of your post 100%, and I find everything you said too be so true. Venus is my favorite, but I don't know her just like I don't know any other player on a personal level.So why should I dislike them? I attended tournaments but that's all. To me a rivalry in tennis is just a rivalry and something that is handled on the court. It really shouldn't be taken personally.

apoet29
Feb 18th, 2002, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by Bright Red


apoet29

The question is whether or not Anna's fans cause you to dislike her. I doubt that people who dislike Anna blame it on her fans (which is what this thread is asking).

Bright Red,

You misunderstood my intentions. My specific post was about all players in general. Not Kournikova. I was merely using her as an example of how much impact a player's popularity can have on how they are perceived by the powers that be.

I like you Bright Red. A lot. But please don't give Kournikova fans another reason to hate me. They misunderstand my posts enough as it is.

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 08:15 PM
apoet29

I misunderstood you. I do agree that a players popularity does impact the movers and shakers of the tennis world. That's a good point.

I like you too, apoet, and I would never want to cast you in a bad light.;)

Bright Red
Feb 18th, 2002, 08:18 PM
I edited my next to the last post so that I not give the impression that you dislike Anna K in any way.

apoet29
Feb 18th, 2002, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by Bright Red
I edited my next to the last post so that I not give the impression that you dislike Anna K in any way.

You're a doll! Although I'm sure that someone will criticize me for it.:eek:

Noaces
Feb 19th, 2002, 07:08 AM
Reading these posts only make me want to laugh or should it be cry.

I can't believe that a bunch of human beings could actually come to a messageboard day in day out to post gibberish about players who they hardly know diddly-squat about. It's pathetic.

Saying nasty things about people who could careless whether or not you exist is bordering on the point of insanity.

I just don't understand. What's the purpose ???????

What I see here it's not tennis. It's almost like a bunch of crazy juveniles or immature adults trying to seek approval or notice from others.

THis is way too pathetic.:fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :sad: :sad: :sad: :confused: :confused: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :mad: :mad: :mad: :sad: :sad:

gentenaire
Feb 19th, 2002, 07:56 AM
That's the first time I read that doctrine! That's sick! The name Andrew rings a bell, what user name did he have?

irma
Feb 19th, 2002, 08:19 AM
his name is andrewbroad and that was his username too, here (or on the old boards, don`t know if he ever posted here) and on the newsgroups, I never realy noticed him till I was reading newsgroupsarchives on google last year and found some horrible stuf and as a diehard Steffi fan I was realy upset and then I also saw what he wrote on the wta boards and that he also thought Monica was like Jesus and he did not once but many times.
He is just sick:fiery:

jrj
Feb 19th, 2002, 11:34 AM
first bright red I actually don't think that the Williams fans dislike Jen because of her fans not at all. All cases are different the reasons I feel some Williams fans dislike her, Lindsay or even Hingis gives me more reason to not like the poster or the player.

anabel
Feb 19th, 2002, 03:02 PM
yes Jelena Dokic ( but not just only for one of hers fans, i never liked her)

argentino
Feb 19th, 2002, 03:37 PM
people:
All knows what i HATE A LOT TO HINGIS!!!!!! (ONLY TO THIS PLAYER), but i hate her, for her :o , no for the fans...i hate her īcause she is arrogant, ironic and a bad person...but i know a lot of hingis fan what are great persons, example....marti-fan (tammy), caio-braz...and others

ONLY HATE HINGIS FOR HER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:fiery: :fiery: :fiery:

later all are nice person here, only one i donīt like...i donīt remember he...but he was from australia and in the chat said a lot of bad things from my country :fiery: :sad: :mad: :(