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View Full Version : Hingis (at her prime) vs. Henin-Hardenne


alfonsojose
Feb 10th, 2004, 04:30 PM
Justine would beat her? I do think so

EDITED : Marina is back, so let's see what happens :yeah:

Crazy_Fool
Feb 10th, 2004, 04:35 PM
Justine would beat her? I do think so
You really have a lot to your arguments. But yes i tend to agree with u, I think Justine's power would be enough.

bandabou
Feb 10th, 2004, 04:47 PM
Hingis of ´97 through say ´00/´01?! Hmmm....was vulnerable to power, but not to JUSTINE´S kinda power. You are acting like Martina was moonballer.....Justine hits hard but she doesn´t hit Lindsay, Venus, Serena-like hard. Martina without the ankle-injuries would have held her own with Justine....and then it´d be like a Myskina vs Justine match-up, but Hingis as a better Myskina..think Hingis would win the most of those matches.

CanadianBoy21
Feb 10th, 2004, 04:51 PM
Obviously Hingis.
In her prime, she could stand her own against Venus and Serena and Lindsay. Justine, as good as she is, was not good as Hingis was in her prime.
Justine does not have a fantastic return to punish Hingis like Serena, Lindsay, and Venus do.

GANGSTABACKHAND!
Feb 10th, 2004, 04:52 PM
Hingis would beat Justine 6-2, 6-2 or better. I think Justine "power" is overrated!! Serena, Venus and Lindsay were beating Martina because they not only hit the ball hard, but they placed them well, painted the lines, and their serves won a lot of free points. Justine does not possess any of these tools. All around Justine's has a good game, great shots, but nothing spectacular, and this is what it took to beat Martina Hingis. It's easy for a player to look brilliant as she dismantles the lesser players, but more telling is how she performs against the top players, and Justine has not performed well against the top players. Against top players Justine has no real weaponds!!! Maritna would beat her easily, no doubt!!

Crazy_Fool
Feb 10th, 2004, 04:54 PM
What so u guys really think that Justine is that average?

tommystar
Feb 10th, 2004, 04:54 PM
Did Hingis have a prime?? :eek: :eek:

Henin 6-2 6-1 or sth.

bandabou
Feb 10th, 2004, 04:59 PM
What so u guys really think that Justine is that average?

Nope, but she isn´t THAT good either...

Crazy_Fool
Feb 10th, 2004, 05:02 PM
Nope, but she isn´t THAT good either...
What does that make Kim then :confused:

bandabou
Feb 10th, 2004, 05:04 PM
What does that make Kim then :confused:

We already know that: In Jana Novotna, Mandiklova( funny how the two chokers got together like that, huh?!), sabatini, etc category: CHOKER!!

Havok
Feb 10th, 2004, 05:05 PM
Hingis, pretty easy match

Glenn
Feb 10th, 2004, 05:05 PM
Justine would definitely win, but could be in 3 sets.
Something like 4-6 6-2 6-2

7~ŒLêV3ñ½
Feb 10th, 2004, 05:14 PM
i guess grass goes to justine, clay and carpet indoors could be to either, hardcourt to martina, rebound ace enuf sed...

jenny161185
Feb 10th, 2004, 05:16 PM
I think it would be very tough match for both and I cant really call this one - though Hingis playing her best magical tennis would be hard to beatby anyone

bigshow21
Feb 10th, 2004, 05:18 PM
Hingis would win! Justine would try to do her routine cheating attempts, but this time they won't work. Hingis would beat her fair and square! :)

tennnisfannn
Feb 10th, 2004, 05:18 PM
How on earth are we supposed to judge that. In tennis, results don't add up mathematically. Just because A beats B who beats C doesn't mean A will beat C. The only results available NOW indicate that Hingis was better. That too can be misleading.
Take for instance if we took the results of Jen vs Serena the first 4 times they played, it would look like Jen would always be the better player coz their h2h the was 3/1. 8 atches later, Serena is the dominant one. If we took Justine vs venus at 1 all it would seem a pretty even match up, 6 matches later Venus is more dominant.
On paper it would look like Justine and Martina would be evenly matched but unfortunately there is always circumstances surrounding each match, weather, injuries, having an off day etc
Let's not forget how great a player martina was nor undermine the player justine has become.

SJW
Feb 10th, 2004, 05:20 PM
Hingis at her best could dismantle anybody. she could tie you up in knots...Henin mishits a lot of balls and Hingis doesn't make any mistakes.

i say Martina

alfonsojose
Feb 10th, 2004, 05:26 PM
Ok, Here are my points.

1. No matter ankles, no matter power. For me, Hingis never recovered from 1999 FO lost to Graff. She started to play defensive and wait for the others to make errors. Justine would beat 2002 AO Hingis. But things would be different facing 1999 AO Hingis.

2. Justine power is overrated. Her game is built around a really great backhand, great net play and an inproved, but still not great forehand.
(note : i'm saying Justine power is overated, not Justine. She's a great player.)

3. They' re not that diferent. Justine has more power and is faster but she's not Justine Williams-Hardenne. Martina is .. well her view of the game was simply perfect.

My scores : Henin-Hardenne d. 2002 AO HIngis 6-3,7-5
1999 AO Hingis d. Henin-Hardenne 6-3,2-6,7-5

7~ŒLêV3ñ½
Feb 10th, 2004, 05:27 PM
i think that justine will beat martina atleast once in her prime
i think that martina will beat justine atleast once in her prime,

both players plays a lot of tournaments yearly and it seems impossible that one could own one in a span of one year.

kim is kinda similar to martina in a way, but i believe that martina was mentally stronger during her prime

SJW
Feb 10th, 2004, 05:29 PM
Ok, Here are my points.

1. No matter ankles, no matter power. For me, Hingis never recovered from 1999 FO lost to Graff. She started to play defensive and wait for the others to make errors. Justine would beat 2002 AO Hingis. But things would be different facing 1999 AO Hingis.

2. Justine power is overrated. Her game is built around a really great backhand, great net play and an inproved, but still not great forehand.
(note : i'm saying Justine power is overated, not Justine. She's a great player.)

3. They' re not that diferent. Justine has more power and is faster but she's not Justine Williams-Hardenne. Martina is .. well her view of the game was simply perfect.

My scores : Henin-Hardenne d. 2002 AO HIngis 6-3,7-5
1999 AO Hingis d. Henin-Hardenne 6-3,2-6,7-5
how many times

HER FOREHAND IS HER BETTER SHOT

hasn't she said that like, loads of times before? :confused:

alfonsojose
Feb 10th, 2004, 05:34 PM
Her forehand is still vulnerable when she has to hit it close to her body

TonyP
Feb 10th, 2004, 05:40 PM
The early 2001 Hingis was able to deal with power well enough to beat Serena Williams in back to back meetings and to deliver to Venus Williams the worst beating of her professional career, giving her only two games in the semi-finals of the Australian Open.

I kind of think she could handle Justine's power.

Martina handled the Williams sisters well enough for a 16-16 stand off against them. Handled Lindsay well enough for an 11-14 record against her.

She also beat Justine in straight sets in their only two meetings.

I think it would be a good match, but Hingis would prevail. Unless you ace her alot and can hit back cold winners from behind the baseline, few players could do much against Hingis and the 2-0 record against Justine is proof of that.

bandabou
Feb 10th, 2004, 05:41 PM
But Hingis is smart enough that she would attack the easiest part of Justine´s game to attack: her backhand....that´s the shot you have to break down and not her forehand.

SJW
Feb 10th, 2004, 05:41 PM
Her forehand is still vulnerable when she has to hit it close to her body
her backhand is more vulnerable to a heavy shot

those mishits?

Crazy_Fool
Feb 10th, 2004, 05:44 PM
I think it would be a good match, but Hingis would prevail. Unless you ace her alot and can hit back cold winners from behind the baseline, few players could do much against Hingis and the 2-0 record against Justine is proof of that.
That aint proof of anything seeing as Justine was not the player she is today. It would be close...

SJW
Feb 10th, 2004, 05:47 PM
Don't bother...Willie fans will go for Hingis here using the logic that if WS
could beat her then Justine is certainly not a threat to them. We will see about that...
and Henin fans go for Justine just because if Henin can beat a sister, she can beat Hingis too

oh wait that's complete BULLSHIT....just like your post :scratch:

i dunno, this is a wild guess...but maybe Williams fans respect and appreciate the great champion and tennis player Martina Hingis is (was)? :scratch:

i know it's a long shot, but just try and remember how to think with your brain

alfonsojose
Feb 10th, 2004, 05:49 PM
That aint proof of anything seeing as Justine was not the player she is today. It would be close...

I agree. Justine wasn't a top player when she faced Martina.

fleemke³
Feb 10th, 2004, 05:55 PM
lol at the people who say Justine's poweer is overrated :tape: well I remeber them saying Justine hits the ball as hard as Serena and others when journalist were talking about the 'small' Justine :tape:

I don't know who would win. Justine hits the ball harder and serves much better but Martina's instict was unbelievable ... the only thing I can say DAMN WHY DID MARTINA QUIT! :(

Trent
Feb 10th, 2004, 05:57 PM
Did Hingis have a prime?? :eek: :eek:

Henin 6-2 6-1 or sth.

I'd consider the years 1997 - 1999 when she won the Aust open every year in both singles and doubles as around her prime.
Particually 1997 when she won 3 grandslam titles and lost in the final at the French.


I would say Hingis would definately win... she was able to keep up with Serena and Venus at times, and Justine doesn't hit the ball with as much pace as they do.

SJW
Feb 10th, 2004, 06:00 PM
Do you want me to dig up some of your previous posts again ? Remember (Jan 7th 2003). Why don't you go pet your Kimmie ?
if you have nothing better to do, and it interests you that fucking much go right ahead.

seriously, and while you're at it, go and watch paint dry. it's so funny you're a troll, cuz i seriously couldn't care less about who YOU are, and what YOU'VE posted

DA FOREHAND
Feb 10th, 2004, 06:00 PM
The early 2001 Hingis was able to deal with power well enough to beat Serena Williams in back to back meetings and to deliver to Venus Williams the worst beating of her professional career, giving her only two games in the semi-finals of the Australian Open.

I kind of think she could handle Justine's power.

Martina handled the Williams sisters well enough for a 16-16 stand off against them. Handled Lindsay well enough for an 11-14 record against her.

She also beat Justine in straight sets in their only two meetings.

I think it would be a good match, but Hingis would prevail. Unless you ace her alot and can hit back cold winners from behind the baseline, few players could do much against Hingis and the 2-0 record against Justine is proof of that.


I give her all credit for beating Serena, but Martina need only put the ball over the net to beat Venus. Martina did nothing special in that match.

That said I believe Martina 01A.O. would beat justine 03/04, she was not bothered by pace.

Martina would continue to own this h2h.

SJW
Feb 10th, 2004, 06:03 PM
ha, ha, williams fans respect hingis...of course now, when she's retired, yeah go on, respect her. what a joker you are...and loser (Kimmie :hearts: )well....that's BULLSHIT. first of all, nothing i say represents all Williams fans cuz i am one of millions. second of all, i've been a Hingis fan since i first saw her :confused: third of all...who's the loser? you're digging up year old posts you whiny biatch ROTFLMFAO

Crazy_Fool
Feb 10th, 2004, 06:07 PM
Oh but I'll remember you...You have a favorite player for every occasion. If one of them loses there is another one...
Nowt wrong with that, why should someone have one favourite and no-one else.

SJW
Feb 10th, 2004, 06:07 PM
Oh but I'll remember you...You have a favorite player for every occasion. If one of them loses there is another one...
yea that's brilliant isn't it? i like a lot of players...that's what makes me so great. i appreciate the beauty of the game. there's a million players who i will sit down and watch, and no one that i refuse to watch.

now stop stalking me, you're scaring me

SJW
Feb 10th, 2004, 06:17 PM
OMG you think i'm a loser and a lunatic? :sad:

excuse me while i end my life.....

shap_half
Feb 10th, 2004, 06:45 PM
I think that Justine would beat Martina more so than the alternative. I think that both are EXCELLENT players. I love them both. But I do think that Justine is capable of dimissing Martina if their best were to meet more often than not.

First, Justine's return game has improved so much over the last 18 months. Justine is willing to take sooo much risks if that ball is not over 100mph. Now, Martina's serve rarely goes over 100mph, and therefore Justine already has the upperhand. Justine can hit backhand dtl returns like it is nobody's business and can also run around her forehand to hit great inside out returns. I think that the service and return games will dictate the match between Justine and Martina. And this is where Justine will get most of the points. Justine has a big serve but Martina will be able to tell the patterns Justine's service game has. This is were if Justine mixes it up, will get herself in the position to win most of the match ups. But if she doesn't, Martina will punish her service games.

I think that if Justine can keep consistent and play really long rallies and doesn't let Martina control the points and be aggressive when needed, Justine can win the match.

DA FOREHAND
Feb 10th, 2004, 07:13 PM
I don't give a damn how much justine's return game has improved...she's still not among the five best.

Lindsay
Serena
Venus
Capriati
Kim

In no particular order all return better. Once the rally starts the odds tilt to Martina against justine, and the longer the rally last puts it more in Martina's favor.

SJW
Feb 10th, 2004, 07:15 PM
Monica is right up there with the returners IMO

DA FOREHAND
Feb 10th, 2004, 07:21 PM
Monica is right up there with the returners IMO

I'd put her up there as well, and look at her h2h -v- Hingis

5-15? :worship:

DA FOREHAND
Feb 10th, 2004, 07:21 PM
Almost forgot...Martina Hingis also had a great return game.

Hingiswinsthis
Feb 10th, 2004, 08:37 PM
Almost forgot...Martina Hingis also had a great return game.
cuz that was the only way she would win her games since her serve was so weak- break serve of that Venus!;)

Ryan
Feb 10th, 2004, 10:25 PM
Very hard to compare, but I think Hingis of AO 01/02 could beat Henin at least 50% of the time. Henin does hit hard, but she hits with lots of topspin 80% of the time, and Hingis could create lots of angles off Justine's shots. Justine has a better serve, Hingis has a better return. Hingis would kill Justine at the net, and she went up there more. Hingis has much better anticipation, and always has good gameplans for her matches. I think she would work over Henin's backhand with all sorts of shots and win most of their matches.

Billabong
Feb 10th, 2004, 11:13 PM
Ok, Here are my points.

1. No matter ankles, no matter power. For me, Hingis never recovered from 1999 FO lost to Graff. She started to play defensive and wait for the others to make errors. Justine would beat 2002 AO Hingis. But things would be different facing 1999 AO Hingis.

2. Justine power is overrated. Her game is built around a really great backhand, great net play and an inproved, but still not great forehand.
(note : i'm saying Justine power is overated, not Justine. She's a great player.)

3. They' re not that diferent. Justine has more power and is faster but she's not Justine Williams-Hardenne. Martina is .. well her view of the game was simply perfect.

My scores : Henin-Hardenne d. 2002 AO HIngis 6-3,7-5
1999 AO Hingis d. Henin-Hardenne 6-3,2-6,7-5

I don't know if some on you watched AO 2002, but Hingis played GREAT... that was the best she played since AO 2001 and she was beating everybody really easily until Seles, who was also playing her best tennis for a long time.. still, Hingis handled her power and beat her... and I'm SURE that Martina would have won the final if she didn't have that heat exhaustion, you can't be closer to win a GS... I agree that she let Capriati back into the match, but I also think that heat did play a role... so I'm not sure Justine would have beaten Martina there!

This said, I think Martina would win in 3 sets!

azinna
Feb 10th, 2004, 11:17 PM
What? Henin beating Hingis? I thought we settled this. ;-)

There were only two ways to consistently beat Hingis from 1997-2001. The first was to hit every shot (from serve to return) very hard and quite flat (none of henin's top-spin, please, last thing you want to do is give hingis a millisecond. call up monica if you need confirmation on this). One had better not rally with the girl. One, in fact, had to have the ability to play tennis without rallying. To go for low percentage shots, and make them your medium-percentage shots. The only folks who could do this were as follows: Lindsay (and only from 1998-99), Serena, and Venus. Justine doesn't have this ability, and so would get "figured out" pretty quickly by Hingis. She would get tied up in knots (to quote SJW), confusion would emerge, her confidence would sink, and the number of mis-hits would climb.

The second method was to be Steffi Graf.

Fyndh0rnElf
Feb 10th, 2004, 11:28 PM
PAW (match that will never be) Hingis over Henin Hardenne 6-0 6-0*

Hingis wins 48 points and Henin gets 2, 1pt per set ---- she uses her cramping tactics in the first set and the hand trick in the second. Hingis loses her nerve for a moment both times, and hits 2 errors, total.

STATS : ~
Hingis 48 winners Henin 0 winners
Hingis 2 errors Henin 0 errors

NOTE - HINGIS ONLY LOST TO HUGE HITTERS! SHE FIGURED OUT THE REST, AND HAD THEM FOR LUNCH :ras:

ttaM
Feb 10th, 2004, 11:33 PM
Rebound Ace: Hingis
Clay: Henin-H.
Grass: Henin-H.
Hard Court: Henin-H./Hingis

Sam L
Feb 10th, 2004, 11:40 PM
Hingis (circa Aus Open 99) would beat Justine (now). But there is one factor working for Justine, the serve.

TonyP
Feb 10th, 2004, 11:41 PM
I don't think this should be a war. There is absolutely no animosity of any kind between these two players themselves and both obviously have great respect for one another. I think Justine herself would be the last person to dismiss Martina and I know Martina admires Justine. I think Martina and Kim are actually friends, and that would seem normal as their personalities are much closer than Martina and Justine's are.

But I also think this thread leads into someone else's thread about why women's tennis is a minor sport, claiming there is no respect for players from older generations. While I am not sure that is completely true, there does seem to be a tendency of some to dismiss anything that happened prior to last Thursday as being ancient history. Hingis and Henin may have just barely crossed paths, but they did and the results are what they are, so for Henin fans to dismiss Hingis seems rather strange to me.

Sam L
Feb 10th, 2004, 11:48 PM
The second method was to be Steffi Graf.
Steffi's forehand was better than the sisters and Lindsay even late in her career. Low % forehands for her were medium % forehands. That's why she did so well against Hingis.

Hingis beautifully picked on her backhand during the French Open 99 final for a set and a half, before she mentally broke down.

LUIS9
Feb 10th, 2004, 11:51 PM
I would agree with the general mass on this one! Hingis at her prime with her ability to move swiftly around the court would be too much even for the much improved Henin of today. Remember in order to beat Hingis you have to hit our right winners from everywhere on the court but she would still anticipate where you were going so unless injured shed get there and wrong foot you with and earlier return. Hingis net game and volleys are leaps and years beyond Henins good or better than average net game. Hingis backhand was immaculate she could place that baby anywhere on the court, you name or point to it she would hit it or place it there by a fraction of an inch accurately. Plus i dont think Henin's serve are the best placed, remember Hingis was always able to return huge serves especially those with bad placement, remember that serve from Brenda shultz she hit a winner return i think it was either 121mph, even super Justine cant match that. Look at the way she destroyed both Stevenson and Moliks whose serves are bigger than Henins? Yes i may be a bit biased because i am still one of her loyal fans even after retirement but a Hingis in her prime or near it would be a bit too much too handle for even surper Justine, besides shes to erratic at times, the Williams began to beat her because they began to cut down on their errors. Hingis is too consistent and will prey on Henins mistakes. so there you have it i would say she would lead to head to head by a coefficient of 4:2. Now Hingis of the latter part of her career especially the one who lost easily to both Petrova and dementieva in 02 when she clearly was missing her natural movement and ability to anticipate would lose to Henin 4:0 or 1.

VS Fan
Feb 11th, 2004, 12:35 AM
Hmmm...

Martina was at her prime 1997-2000.

Todays Justine would take her easily in straight sets, no question.

Martina thrived in those days with a smart all court game, but Justine not only has an excellent all court game, but a far superior serve. Justine's speed of serve both first and second was FASTER than Serena's in their semifinal match at RG. Also good placement.

Wish we could have the matches to prove this! I do miss Martina.
Please get well and come back, tennis misses you!

Volcana
Feb 11th, 2004, 03:01 AM
Hingis, even though Henin-Hardenne is the more talented player.

IMHO, Justine would be all too happy to get into a duel of creativity, angles and spins with Martina. Justine likes that game, but that's playing to Martina's strengths. If Justine tried to blow Martina off the court, she'd beat her, but I really think Justine would go finesse vs finesse. And lose.

Diya
Feb 11th, 2004, 03:52 AM
Hingis v/s Henin would be a great match up and methinks Martina would beat Justine in more often with most of their matches going the full distance

Martian Willow
Feb 11th, 2004, 03:58 AM
Martina. :)

Rothes
Feb 11th, 2004, 04:18 AM
Hingis, even though Henin-Hardenne is the more talented player.
I beg to differ Volcana, Certainly both have a Mervellous and indepth approach to the game of tennis and how they handle their games in a unique style, Instead of saying the oppisite that Martina has the one soaked with Talent they both draw extraordinary methods of how they define it, they are very unique, and how Martina Handles her weaknesses was very exquisite and almost a rarity while playing, I think with the little bits in Between that had Made Martinas game a little more extra entertaining and interesting she gets the nod for me, we can't forget the aspect of doubles and in knowing that it is extremely hard to be top at both styles of the game which do have quite a huge difference to them.

bw2082
Feb 11th, 2004, 04:42 AM
Hingis would win in straight sets. People make her out to be weaker than she really was. If she had the confidence she had in 97 combined with the way she was playing in 2000/2001 it would be no contest.

skanky~skanketta
Feb 11th, 2004, 05:29 AM
justine. she normally works her game to beat the top guns. and if hingis was the top gun, she'd have worked to beat her. obviously, she took a page outta venus' book.

Jamie
Feb 11th, 2004, 06:18 AM
Justine is a great player. Martina is/was THE BEST OF THE BEST. It would be a great game, but Martina would come out the winner.

Roddick_tease
Feb 11th, 2004, 07:44 AM
Hingis would rarely lose unless she was completely overpowered. Not to say that it's impossible (in 97 she lost to Raymond and Coetzer after all, and has a loss or two to ASV) but it was basically impossible. What makes me think that Hingis would win is the slice backhand.

When Henin is on the defensive against, say, Serena, she slices her backhand to get back in position. However, it is also an off pace shot that Serena and other power players have trouble dealing with.

Hingis, on the other hand, would eat up Henin's slice like it was her job. She'd come in and volley or hit a cross-court angle or wrong-foot Henin down the line with success almost every time.

That being said, Henin's improved serve and return would make things close.

More often than not, Hingis would win. And more often than not, I think, in three sets.

bandabou
Feb 11th, 2004, 04:04 PM
If people are saying that Justine is a finesse-player, then how´s she gonna beat the MASTER of finesse: Martina Hingis?!

Thing with Justine is: She can´t beat Martina with finesse and she isn´t powerful enough to overpower Martina either....tough job for Juju here, I´d say.

alfonsojose
Feb 11th, 2004, 04:19 PM
Two single points :

1. 2002 AO Final is the most painful match in tennis history for me. I could sleep only two hous later. I was angry and sad. I never saw the 1999 FO Final but like it or not, The energy and emotion of those matches is something that i've not seen on Belgium finals or Williams finals (this 2004 AO final was better, but no closer). I will always respect Hingis for that. The life, the actitude she brought into her matches.

2. More poweful, better server, maybe. But Justine is not as talented as Hingis. Martina's perception of the game is something unique.

bandabou
Feb 11th, 2004, 04:27 PM
Two single points :

1. 2002 AO Final is the most painful match in tennis history for me. I could sleep only two hous later. I was angry and sad. I never saw the 1999 FO Final but like it or not, The energy and emotion of those matches is something that i've not seen on Belgium finals or Williams finals (this 2004 AO final was better, but no closer). I will always respect Hingis for that. The life, the actitude she brought into her matches.

2. More poweful, better server, maybe. But Justine is not as talented as Hingis. Martina's perception of the game is something unique.

I´m willing to bet if it were any other two-player who played the same match at the ´03 Oz-final as the Williamses did, it´d have been called a classic.

Billabong
Feb 11th, 2004, 04:31 PM
Two single points :

1. 2002 AO Final is the most painful match in tennis history for me. I could sleep only two hous later. I was angry and sad. I never saw the 1999 FO Final but like it or not, The energy and emotion of those matches is something that i've not seen on Belgium finals or Williams finals (this 2004 AO final was better, but no closer). I will always respect Hingis for that. The life, the actitude she brought into her matches.

2. More poweful, better server, maybe. But Justine is not as talented as Hingis. Martina's perception of the game is something unique.
I totally agree... 2002 AO final was also a nightmare for me and it's still in my mind... I'll always admire Martina:)!

Crazy_Fool
Feb 11th, 2004, 04:33 PM
Of course Hingis is more talented than anyone playing....but talent isnt everything. I jsut think Justine has a better all round game.

bandabou
Feb 11th, 2004, 04:40 PM
Of course Hingis is more talented than anyone playing....but talent isnt everything. I jsut think Justine has a better all round game.

Hmm....I think that Martina´s a bad match-up for Justine. Justine really right now is successful in that she can lull people or power-players to make errors: witness Serena on clay,etc....but how´s she gonna lull a player who´s the MASTER of lulling?! Justine can´t lull Martina, because Martina is the queen luller....don´t know how she´d be able to beat a Martina at her best.

alfonsojose
Feb 11th, 2004, 04:45 PM
I´m willing to bet if it were any other two-player who played the same match at the ´03 Oz-final as the Williamses did, it´d have been called a classic.

I have nothing against the sisters. But their finals had too many unforced errors. I understand that it's not easy to play again a brother (sister).

Crazy_Fool
Feb 11th, 2004, 04:47 PM
Hmm....I think that Martina´s a bad match-up for Justine. Justine really right now is successful in that she can lull people or power-players to make errors: witness Serena on clay,etc....but how´s she gonna lull a player who´s the MASTER of lulling?! Justine can´t lull Martina, because Martina is the queen luller....don´t know how she´d be able to beat a Martina at her best.
Justine has become a much more attacking player in recent months and is now more agressive and hits more winners than ever. She doesnt rely on errors so much anymore....Unfortunately i dont think we will ever find out.....

bandabou
Feb 11th, 2004, 04:48 PM
I have nothing against the sisters. But their finals had too many unforced errors. I understand that it's not easy to play again a brother (sister).

Aah, the ufe´s you say huh?! Somehow I´m willing to bet that you were one of the people who said that the Lindsay vs Jen IW´03 semi was a classic....thing is that that match had EVEN more ufe´s than the ´03 OZ-final.

bandabou
Feb 11th, 2004, 04:49 PM
Justine has become a much more attacking player in recent months and is now more agressive and hits more winners than ever. She doesnt rely on errors so much anymore....Unfortunately i dont think we will ever find out.....

I guess not....p.s.: So now you dropped Martina altogether now?! I thought she used to be in your signature?!

Crazy_Fool
Feb 11th, 2004, 04:51 PM
Aah, the ufe´s you say huh?! Somehow I´m willing to bet that you were one of the people who said that the Lindsay vs Jen IW´03 semi was a classic....thing is that that match had EVEN more ufe´s than the ´03 OZ-final.
How about the US Open 03 semi Jen-Justine. That had too many unforced errors yet people talk about it as a classic. Personally i dont rate the game that much.

bandabou
Feb 11th, 2004, 04:52 PM
How about the US Open 03 semi Jen-Justine. That had too many unforced errors yet people talk about it as a classic. Personally i dont rate the game that much.

Don´t even get me started!! And you´re a Justine-fan, then I guess it must have been REALLY bad!

Crazy_Fool
Feb 11th, 2004, 04:54 PM
I guess not....p.s.: So now you dropped Martina altogether now?! I thought she used to be in your signature?!
Not that i've dropped her, its just that what is the point of cheering for a player who isnt even playing anymore! I was never a die-hard fan of her anyway, i really liked her but not really in the same way as Justine. Rafter took too much of my attention back in the day!

Crazy_Fool
Feb 11th, 2004, 04:57 PM
Don´t even get me started!! And you´re a Justine-fan, then I guess it must have been REALLY bad!
Exciting - Yes, Tense - Yes, High quality match - Hell no. I saw a re-run of it the other day, and one ufe ater another....

bandabou
Feb 11th, 2004, 05:08 PM
Not that i've dropped her, its just that what is the point of cheering for a player who isnt even playing anymore! I was never a die-hard fan of her anyway, i really liked her but not really in the same way as Justine. Rafter took too much of my attention back in the day!


Aaahh like that....

bandabou
Feb 11th, 2004, 05:10 PM
Exciting - Yes, Tense - Yes, High quality match - Hell no. I saw a re-run of it the other day, and one ufe ater another....

And it didn´t even have that many memorable points, either.....I liked the ´03 oz final better or better yet: The Serena vs Justine semi and the Serena vs Jen qrtr at wimby...waaaaayyyy better than that u.s. open match imo.

alfonsojose
Mar 9th, 2006, 06:23 PM
bump ...

spencercarlos
Mar 9th, 2006, 06:50 PM
Hingis would win.
Of course 2006 is not near 70% of the player that Hingis was in the first half of 1999/end of 2000 and start of 2001.
Hingis in her prime was much more dominant than Henin has been, and has a considerable good record against power players. Still Henin has more time to acomplish much more.

turt
Mar 9th, 2006, 07:24 PM
Lol, I actually read most of the thread before realizing we were in 2004 :lol:

I think there's no more contest now: Justine would win this ;)

hablo
Mar 9th, 2006, 07:33 PM
no I think Hingis in her prime beats Hénin-Hardenne :p

faste5683
Mar 9th, 2006, 08:11 PM
All around Justine's has a good game, great shots, but nothing spectacular, and this is what it took to beat Martina Hingis. It's easy for a player to look brilliant as she dismantles the lesser players, but more telling is how she performs against the top players, and Justine has not performed well against the top players. Against top players Justine has no real weaponds!!! Maritna would beat her easily, no doubt!!

:haha: I don't think I've ever seen a post so wrong in so many ways. Who in the hell is Justine beating - ITF players? She beats...everyone.

:wavey:

Mightymirza
Mar 9th, 2006, 08:49 PM
Justine definately...She DOES have enough power..And the forehand is pretty devastating many times..(esp the inside out :hearts: :hearts: )...And of course Justine is one of the best returners in the game..She takes serves so early...In every aspect of game Justine is better than Hingis...(except Doubles :D)..I just dont see Juju losing to Hingis...

Mightymirza
Mar 9th, 2006, 08:49 PM
[QUOTE=GANGSTABACKHAND!



:haha: I don't think I've ever seen a post so wrong in so many ways. Who in the hell is Justine beating - ITF players? She beats...everyone.

:wavey:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :bounce: :bounce:

thrust
Mar 9th, 2006, 08:49 PM
Once Justine reached her peak in 03-04 she was able to handle Davenport^s power. She beat Davenport in the AO this year and Maria twice on hard courts. A match between Martina and Justine, at their best, would be fascinating. Controlled power with finesse as against each other they would not have to react to heavy power shots. It would be a faster version of a clay court match, and very close in head to head results. I would give Justine a slight edge.

loppy
Mar 9th, 2006, 09:28 PM
Once Justine reached her peak in 03-04 she was able to handle Davenport^s power. She beat Davenport in the AO this year and Maria twice on hard courts. A match between Martina and Justine, at their best, would be fascinating. Controlled power with finesse as against each other they would not have to react to heavy power shots. It would be a faster version of a clay court match, and very close in head to head results. I would give Justine a slight edge.

I agree totally. A match between Martina and Justine at their best would be out of this world! :hearts:

Both girls are playing amazingly now. So, there's still hope that we'll get to see them play each other in near peak forms in the near future.

K.U.C.W-R.V
Mar 9th, 2006, 09:38 PM
I think Justine would win 7 out of 10.

spencercarlos
Mar 9th, 2006, 09:54 PM
Once Justine reached her peak in 03-04 she was able to handle Davenport^s power. She beat Davenport in the AO this year and Maria twice on hard courts. A match between Martina and Justine, at their best, would be fascinating. Controlled power with finesse as against each other they would not have to react to heavy power shots. It would be a faster version of a clay court match, and very close in head to head results. I would give Justine a slight edge.
Davenport 03/ and early 04 was far from her peak.
Hingis faced Davenport at her peak, in my opinion.

jochem
Mar 9th, 2006, 09:59 PM
how can you compare Hingis at her prime with Henin-Hardenne not at her prime?????????! I mean, compare both at their primes and you'll get a much more accurate perspective... We can only wait for Hingis to be at her prima again and Justine too to see who is right or wrong.

fammmmedspin
Mar 9th, 2006, 10:12 PM
The thread title puts Martina at her prime and doesn't say what level Justine is at - I assume today's level? That brings in consistency. Martina had more success at sustaining her level - 4 years at number one and lots of GS finals and SF even when not winning tell us something. Justine is virus, injury and lapse prone and on many weeks her better serve will feed Martina games worth of service faults. Chances are Martina is going to turn up better on the day unless justine can sustain her level. Chances are justine will beat her when she has a good hard hitting week on the right surface.

RenaSlam.
Mar 9th, 2006, 10:22 PM
Hingis (peak '97-'99) would beat peak Justine 7-5, 6-4

spencercarlos
Mar 9th, 2006, 10:29 PM
Hingis (peak '97-'99) would beat peak Justine 7-5, 6-4
I agree :)

one_beat
Mar 9th, 2006, 11:39 PM
Hingis at her peak would beat Justine, no questions.

rottweily
Mar 9th, 2006, 11:57 PM
Justine would win 5/10 with her superior game and an additional 3/10 with her fighter mentality.

Junex
Mar 10th, 2006, 01:17 AM
Hingis (peak '97-'99) would beat peak Justine 7-5, 6-4

that is BS!

that would commensurate as saying that Hingis (peak '97-'99) as she easily did. would beat peak WS....


as i have always said before, we can never have a match of these greats peak vs. peak...


one way or another this types of players peaked when the other goes downhill...

its like changing of the guards for them...

but we will never know..tennis match is unpredictable...

we can never be objective enough...

go hingis
Mar 10th, 2006, 01:39 AM
Hingis would have Henin resorting to her hand to help her win the match.

Ryan
Mar 10th, 2006, 01:40 AM
that is BS!

that would commensurate as saying that Hingis (peak '97-'99) as she easily did. would beat peak WS....


as i have always said before, we can never have a match of these greats peak vs. peak...


one way or another this types of players peaked when the other goes downhill...

its like changing of the guards for them...

but we will never know..tennis match is unpredictable...

we can never be objective enough...


How is it saying Hingis would beat peak Venus/Serena? Peak Venus/Serena > peak Justine.

I think it would definately go to three sets almost every time, and the surface would play a big impact.

Justeenium
Mar 10th, 2006, 01:48 AM
:lol: Hingis :retard:s

like any Hingis would have a chance against the Justine we saw in the first set and a half of the AO 04 final

dinhd82
Mar 10th, 2006, 02:02 AM
Hingis would have killed Justine.

RJWCapriati
Mar 10th, 2006, 02:13 AM
I think Hingis would take her down

Junex
Mar 10th, 2006, 04:36 AM
How is it saying Hingis would beat peak Venus/Serena? Peak Venus/Serena > peak Justine.

I think it would definately go to three sets almost every time, and the surface would play a big impact.



that is not actually my point...

read my entire post!... :wavey:

PLP
Mar 10th, 2006, 06:54 AM
Well I think we will get a chance to see what happens as I don't believe either player has reached their prime...Martina definetely dominated more than Justine ever could but I think she is turning into a much better player than she was then and Justine can still improve if that shoulder tendinitis doesn't do her in in a year or two...it would be pretty funny if Justine retired before Martina :lol: now that she seems so renewed and Justine continues to fall apart physically, but I am really looking forward to them playing again, I think it could be a pretty even and exciting rivalry, P

Hant11
Mar 10th, 2006, 07:02 AM
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/7346/v006637771aa.jpg

AKJH
Mar 10th, 2006, 07:49 AM
first of all, I'm a JuJu fan, so i may be a little biased, but i'll try to be as objective as I can.

Comparing HIngis and Henin-Hardenne is difficult. They're so close in grand slam records, and records done at a young age. They both dominated for a season or two, and Justine seems to be on her way to do that again.

The times when Hingis was at her peak, the main and only competition for her was Davenport and for a year Steffi.

The came the williams, and that was at the point I do not consider Hingis at her peak. Honestly, I've never seen Hingis play as well as she does today. Which brings about my point.

Justine, dominated when there was a big foursome of girls that where the 'dominators', headlined by serena williams, venus, kim, and herself. Amelie and DAvenport where there also, but not as blatantly as the other four. I remember from the 2003 Clay season to when she got her virus in 04 after indian wells, she was THE DOMINATOR, no question.

So a match between Henin-Hardenne's peak vs. Hingis' Peak would have Hingis crying on the floor....why? Because Henin-Hardenne's best had to be 50 times better than Hingis', because the game changed. In order for Henin-Hardenne to dominte she didnt only have to be as good as Hingis was, but 50 times better than that.

Both of their peaks is today, because Martina has never played better and Justine is playing her best ball. A today's match would end the speculation.

eck
Mar 10th, 2006, 07:49 AM
Too hard to tell.
I wish Ju would win ;)
Both Hingis and Ju are talented, no question bout that.

Justine Fan
Mar 10th, 2006, 07:58 AM
Hingis would have killed Justine.

Was that before Justine won the match or after?

Justine Fan
Mar 10th, 2006, 07:59 AM
I think Hingis would take her down

I thought Martina was hetrosexual :)

Justine Fan
Mar 10th, 2006, 08:04 AM
Hingis would have Henin resorting to her hand to help her win the match.

Very funny coming from a Hingis fan :haha: - how many "under arm" serves would Martina have to do before running off the court sobbing into mummy's arms? :lol:

Greenout
Mar 10th, 2006, 08:34 AM
Justine: Ok, for sure deal! End of the year rankings I'm #1, and you're #2.

Martina: Wait, that's not it. I'll be #1, and you be #2!


http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/6487/2006030966sw.jpg


;)

faste5683
Mar 10th, 2006, 10:47 AM
Justine: Ok, for sure deal! End of the year rankings I'm #1, and you're #2.

Martina: Wait, that's not it. I'll #1, and you be #2!


http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/6487/2006030966sw.jpg


;)

What a great picture, Greenout! Thank you for posting it.

:wavey:

Stamp Paid
Mar 10th, 2006, 10:51 AM
What? Henin beating Hingis? I thought we settled this. ;-)

There were only two ways to consistently beat Hingis from 1997-2001. The first was to hit every shot (from serve to return) very hard and quite flat (none of henin's top-spin, please, last thing you want to do is give hingis a millisecond. call up monica if you need confirmation on this). One had better not rally with the girl. One, in fact, had to have the ability to play tennis without rallying. To go for low percentage shots, and make them your medium-percentage shots. The only folks who could do this were as follows: Lindsay (and only from 1998-99), Serena, and Venus. Justine doesn't have this ability, and so would get "figured out" pretty quickly by Hingis. She would get tied up in knots (to quote SJW), confusion would emerge, her confidence would sink, and the number of mis-hits would climb.

The second method was to be Steffi Graf.

:spit: :lol::lol::lol:

daffodil
Mar 10th, 2006, 11:44 AM
I don't want to take anything away from Martina's year in 1997, but there was almost no competition.

She won 12 titles, and this is my breakdown of it:

Sydney- she had to beat Appelmans, Basuki, a "past-prime" Mary Joe Fernandez, and a "slumping/trying to get somewhere again" Capriati. Capriati still got a set off her.

Australian Open- 4-time champion Monica Seles wasn't there, Graf wasn't there, and the highest-ranked player she had to beat was a 10th ranked Spirlea.

Tokyo- Lost only 14 games, but had a w/o against Graf, with whom she probably would have lost to (fast surface, Graf ended up with a winning record).

Paris- good wins. Beat Majoli and Huber.

Miami- good wins, can't say anything there. Beat 4th Novotna and 5th Seles.

Charleston- Beat Schultz-McCarthy in a though three-setter on her worst surface, and barely got by Monica.

Wimbledon- Where was Graf????

Stanford- good wins.

San Diego- just too good.

US Open- too dominant, but it's not like she was playing Martychris Evert-Navratilova in the final.

Filderstadt- RAYMOND in the final?

Philadelphia- mentally too good, as she lost an unbelieveable amount of games.



Look, I can't question every match or tournament Martina won in 1997, as it was a breathtaking display of dominance. I'm just saying that Steffi had ended her dominance in 1996, and Monica last won a Slam in 1996. Venus and Serena broke through in 1998, and Novotna won her first Slam in 1998. There was Hingis, all alone at the top.

WITH THAT BEING SAID, I think that Henin-Hardenne could definitely beat Martina from 1997.

SERVE- Justine
FOREHAND- Justine
Backhand- Justine
Movement Justine

Geisha
Mar 10th, 2006, 11:57 AM
This is a tough argument. Let's remember that all players in Justine's peak were a lot stronger than the players Hingis played at her peak. Davenport, Venus, Serena, Clijsters, and many more, hit the ball with more depth, power, and consistency.

For Hingis to be dominant, every match, she needed to play against players that would give her time to use her genious shotmaking. There are few matches where Hingis has punished the best power players the game has seen - Serena ('99 Rome), Venus ('01 Melbourne), and I don't know if she's every punished Lindsay at her peak.

For me, it is a toss-up, on pretty much all surfaces. But, we need to ask ourselves if Hingis would be able to take Justine during a three-set match...I'm not sure she can.

The Crow
Mar 10th, 2006, 12:44 PM
lol, reading this thread you would never have guessed Justine was number 1 for so many weeks :lol:

I think Hingis would have a hard time with a Justine AT HER PRIME. A lot of people here are dismissing a) Justine's (and Carlos') tactics (I don't think she'd play against Hingis at her prime the same way she plays against e.g. Sharapova) and b) her fighting spirit.

It is too bad we are never going to see this match.

spencercarlos
Mar 10th, 2006, 01:47 PM
I don't want to take anything away from Martina's year in 1997, but there was almost no competition.

She won 12 titles, and this is my breakdown of it:

Sydney- she had to beat Appelmans, Basuki, a "past-prime" Mary Joe Fernandez, and a "slumping/trying to get somewhere again" Capriati. Capriati still got a set off her.

Australian Open- 4-time champion Monica Seles wasn't there, Graf wasn't there, and the highest-ranked player she had to beat was a 10th ranked Spirlea.

Tokyo- Lost only 14 games, but had a w/o against Graf, with whom she probably would have lost to (fast surface, Graf ended up with a winning record).

Paris- good wins. Beat Majoli and Huber.

Miami- good wins, can't say anything there. Beat 4th Novotna and 5th Seles.

Charleston- Beat Schultz-McCarthy in a though three-setter on her worst surface, and barely got by Monica.

Wimbledon- Where was Graf????

Stanford- good wins.

San Diego- just too good.

US Open- too dominant, but it's not like she was playing Martychris Evert-Navratilova in the final.

Filderstadt- RAYMOND in the final?

Philadelphia- mentally too good, as she lost an unbelieveable amount of games.



Look, I can't question every match or tournament Martina won in 1997, as it was a breathtaking display of dominance. I'm just saying that Steffi had ended her dominance in 1996, and Monica last won a Slam in 1996. Venus and Serena broke through in 1998, and Novotna won her first Slam in 1998. There was Hingis, all alone at the top.

WITH THAT BEING SAID, I think that Henin-Hardenne could definitely beat Martina from 1997.

SERVE- Justine
FOREHAND- Justine
Backhand- Justine
Movement Justine
This is a pretty much ridiculuos post.
Hingis´s best wins in 1997.
Arantxa 3 times
Seles 3 times
Martinez 2 times
Novotna 2 times
Mary Joe 3 times
Davenport 2 times
Pierce 2 times
Huber 4 times
Coetzer 2 times

Tell me Henin´s best wins of 2003 year (which has been her best year).. there is no comparisson or winning slams against a choking Clijsters is better than beating Arantxa, Pierce, Jana and Seles? :lol:

Hingis has been world number one much more longer than Henin and at her prime was much more dominant than Henin has ever been.

Allez-H
Mar 10th, 2006, 01:57 PM
This is a pretty much ridiculuos post.
Hingis´s best wins in 1997.
Arantxa 3 times
Seles 3 times
Martinez 2 times
Novotna 2 times
Mary Joe 3 times
Davenport 2 times
Pierce 2 times
Huber 4 times
Coetzer 2 times

Tell me Henin´s best wins of 2003 year (which has been her best year).. there is no comparisson or winning slams against a choking Clijsters is better than beating Arantxa, Pierce, Jana and Seles? :lol:

Hingis has been world number one much more longer than Henin and at her prime was much more dominant than Henin has ever been.

Yes but problem is, you can't really say Justine's number 1 and winning grandslams' days are over can't you? As for Martina to get in a position where she once was, it's not going to be easy.

There's no Justine at her prime in your title cuz I think, Justine at her prime would still have to come ( Justine at her prime was 2004 pre-virus)

rottweily
Mar 10th, 2006, 03:04 PM
SERVE- Justine
FOREHAND- Justine
Backhand- Justine
Movement Justine

Add:
Mental aspect- Justine

alfonsojose
Mar 10th, 2006, 03:05 PM
I want to see them playing on clay :cool:

Aquanetta
Mar 10th, 2006, 03:50 PM
Henin at her prime would own Hingis at her prime.

loppy
Mar 10th, 2006, 04:23 PM
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/6487/2006030966sw.jpg




Justine to Martina: "Did you know that WTAworld posters were comparing us?"

:lol:

Ryan
Mar 10th, 2006, 04:57 PM
OMG :retard: Some of the Justine fans in here are stupid. 2006 is Hingis at her prime? You're fucking joking me. Get off the crack before you come back in this thread.


And, underarm serves are not cheating, like lying about sticking up your hand. :)

The Crow
Mar 10th, 2006, 05:05 PM
OMG :retard: Some of the Justine fans in here are stupid. 2006 is Hingis at her prime? You're fucking joking me. Get off the crack before you come back in this thread.


And, underarm serves are not cheating, like lying about sticking up your hand. :)

I shouldn't get involved in this, but I can't resist. Sticking up your hand and letting the umpire in the dark about it is not cheating either. It's of poor taste I give you that, but it's not cheating.

Ryan
Mar 10th, 2006, 05:08 PM
I shouldn't get involved in this, but I can't resist. Sticking up your hand and letting the umpire in the dark about it is not cheating either. It's of poor taste I give you that, but it's not cheating.


"poor taste" my ass. She put up her hand...and lied about doing so afterwards. Ok, maybe there isn't a rule about doing that, but it's extremely unclassy gamesmanship, and far more disgraceful than serving underhanded.

Lady
Mar 10th, 2006, 05:22 PM
Justine: Ok, for sure deal! End of the year rankings I'm #1, and you're #2.

Martina: Wait, that's not it. I'll #1, and you be #2!


http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/6487/2006030966sw.jpg


;)


Aaaah, I love them both so much!! :hearts:

spencercarlos
Mar 10th, 2006, 05:31 PM
I shouldn't get involved in this, but I can't resist. Sticking up your hand and letting the umpire in the dark about it is not cheating either. It's of poor taste I give you that, but it's not cheating.
That is cheating and lying at its worst. Of course delusional fans of hers will always say that it was the "umpire´s decision".. :rolleyes:
Objective tennis fans will always denigrate something like this.

Hingis 2006 as i said is not even 70% of the player she once was.

The Crow
Mar 10th, 2006, 05:42 PM
See, I told you I shouldn't get involved cause before you know it you're a delusional fan :rolleyes:

spencercarlos
Mar 10th, 2006, 06:05 PM
See, I told you I shouldn't get involved cause before you know it you're a delusional fan :rolleyes:
Actually i used to be a Henin fan, and a Martina Hingis hater, i really enjoyed her losing to Graf at Rg 99 :p
Henin got dumped from my list after Rg 03 and Hingis´s comeback has made of me a new fan of her.

And btw i was not talking about you when saying that "delusional fans of hers will always say that it was the "umpire´s decision" ", but the way you called me delusional, seems you felt delusional too :p :angel:

Ryan
Mar 10th, 2006, 06:07 PM
See, I told you I shouldn't get involved cause before you know it you're a delusional fan :rolleyes:


I guess you should have trusted your instincts then.

lolo21
Mar 24th, 2006, 09:39 PM
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/6487/2006030966sw.jpg

Justine: "eh Martina,do you know the last new? Amelie is still fed up with me since the AO and she doesn t want to talk with me anymore"

Martina:" welcome to the club,Justine!"

:devil:

great photo anyway! :)

Il Primo!
Mar 24th, 2006, 10:14 PM
Hingis of ´97 through say ´00/´01?! Hmmm....was vulnerable to power, but not to JUSTINE´S kinda power. You are acting like Martina was moonballer.....Justine hits hard but she doesn´t hit Lindsay, Venus, Serena-like hard. Martina without the ankle-injuries would have held her own with Justine....and then it´d be like a Myskina vs Justine match-up, but Hingis as a better Myskina..think Hingis would win the most of those matches.

I think excatly the same :worship:

hablo
Mar 24th, 2006, 10:16 PM
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/6487/2006030966sw.jpg

Justine: "eh Martina,do you know the last new? Amelie is still fed up with me since the AO and she doesn t want to talk with me anymore"

Martina:" welcome to the club,Justine!"


ok that is just evil caption :haha::devil: