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View Full Version : Capriati climbs to #4 next week!


DannerCal
Feb 9th, 2004, 07:57 PM
Jennifer is doing a good job of climbing the ranks without even hitting a tennis ball :).

Andrew.
Feb 9th, 2004, 08:05 PM
Where do you get that? Lindsay will remain at 4 next week and Jennifer at 5. Neither of them have points to defend.

Keith
Feb 9th, 2004, 08:05 PM
LOL. Go Jen!

tennisIlove09
Feb 9th, 2004, 08:06 PM
I was thinking that too. Lindsay doesn't have points coming off?

CinnamoninCinema
Feb 9th, 2004, 08:06 PM
Yeah, you're wrong. Jennifer will stay where she is.

Andrew.
Feb 9th, 2004, 08:12 PM
But....Venus will fall down to at least 18, if not lower. :scared:

7~ŚLęV3ń˝
Feb 9th, 2004, 08:30 PM
are youguys forgetiing bout amelie?

Knizzle
Feb 9th, 2004, 08:31 PM
But....Venus will fall down to at least 18, if not lower. :scared:

A #18 that owns the #5, remarkable, isn't it??

7~ŚLęV3ń˝
Feb 9th, 2004, 08:31 PM
oops.. Amelie is way ahead of Jen

Andrew.
Feb 9th, 2004, 08:32 PM
A #18 that owns the #5, remarkable, isn't it??

You're right....she absolutely owns Jen. :tape:

Knizzle
Feb 9th, 2004, 08:36 PM
You're right....she absolutely owns Jen.

Lindsay also and the rest of the top ten besides Serena.

LindsayRocks89
Feb 9th, 2004, 08:37 PM
Lindsay stays number 4, and come on guys lets stop fighting :)

Andrew.
Feb 9th, 2004, 08:37 PM
Lindsay also and the rest of the top ten besides Serena.

She did before she was 18......now shje doesn't even have a chance to play them......

Knizzle
Feb 9th, 2004, 08:41 PM
She did before she was 18......now shje doesn't even have a chance to play them......

Huh??

jenny161185
Feb 9th, 2004, 08:51 PM
I just want to see jen back playing tennis - fit and healthy I cant wait :)

QUEENLINDSAY
Feb 9th, 2004, 08:56 PM
Lindsay also and the rest of the top ten besides Serena.
Yeah because she only plays them on the surface and time where she knows she has chances. By the way Linds used to own her and she turn around the table, I bet Lindsay can turn around the table if only Venus decides to play her on all courts.

Knizzle
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:02 PM
Yeah because she only plays them on the surface and time where she knows she has chances. By the way Linds used to own her and she turn around the table, I bet Lindsay can turn around the table if only Venus decides to play her on all courts.

This makes no sense whatsoever. LD's best surface is hard. Venus has beaten her repeatedly on hard. Don't think LD will turn the H2H around anytime soon, but anything is possible.

nitsansh
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:08 PM
Actually, the one who climbs next week without playing for 7 months is Serena, who will overtake Myskina in 6th.
Venus drop to 16th so far, but Schiavone is just 4 pts behind her after her win today, and Smashnova or Farina are 2 wins away from passing her as well.

QUEENLINDSAY
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:10 PM
This makes no sense whatsoever. LD's best surface is hard. Venus has beaten her repeatedly on hard. Don't think LD will turn the H2H around anytime soon, but anything is possible.
Maybe not!!!! maybe yes!!!! but the belgians surely will!!!!!!!!
They are number one and 2 now!!!!!! History repeats itself!!!! its a trend dont u think????maybe u cant accept it yet, but hey ur just a believing fan to ur fave, time will only slap it into ur face.

Knizzle
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:15 PM
Maybe not!!!! maybe yes!!!! but the belgians surely will!!!!!!!!
They are number one and 2 now!!!!!! History repeats itself!!!! its a trend dont u think????maybe u cant accept it yet, but hey ur just a believing fan to ur fave, time will only slap it into ur face.

You have to rely on the Belgians because you know LD probably isn't going to turn the H2H around. In the Belgians rise to #1 and #2 what is their record against Venus??

nitsansh
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:16 PM
Projected WTA Singles Rankings
(As of February 16, 2004)
Updated on Monday 9/2
#Playing on Tuesday 10/2
color codes: Through to round 2

Rnk PRk Player Nat Pts PPt Add Off Nxt Rnd/Res/Opp
1 1 Justine Henin-Hardenne (BEL) 7324 7328 (101) 105(101)
2 2 Kim Clijsters (BEL) 6517 6603 (149) 235(149)49+10 R2 v Sanchez-Lorenzo(45)
3 3 Amelie Mauresmo (FRA) 3452 3452 (24) 0(1)
4 4 Lindsay Davenport (USA) 3050 3050 (-) 0(-)
5 5 Jennifer Capriati (USA) 2764 2764 (-) 0(-)
6 7 Serena Williams (USA) 2584 2584 (-) 0(-)
7 6 Anastasia Myskina (RUS) 2528 2649 (31) 152(31)
8 8 Ai Sugiyama (JPN) 2340 2400 (36) 96(36)
9 9 Chanda Rubin (USA) 2300 2300 (33) 0(2)
10 10 Elena Dementieva (RUS) 2257 2257 (40) 0(2) 49+ R2 v TBD
11 11 Nadia Petrova (RUS) 1967 1967 (6) 0(2)
12 12 Vera Zvonareva (RUS) 1882 1882 (29) 0(20)
13 14 Paola Suarez (ARG) 1661 1661 (36) 0(1)
14 15 Jelena Dokic (SCG) 1449 1449 (29) 1(27) 49+ R2 v TBD
15 16 Patty Schnyder (SUI) 1374 1432 (1) 59(1) 49+ R2 v TBD
16 13 Venus Williams (USA) 1351 1678 (-) 327(-)
17 18 Francesca Schiavone (ITA) 1347 1335 35(23) 1(1) 24+ R2 v TBD
18 17 Conchita Martinez (ESP) 1337 1372 (1) 36(1)
19 19 Anna Smashnova-Pistolesi(ISR) 1309 1309 (20) 0(16) 25+2 R1 v Golovin(136)#
20 20 Silvia Farina Elia (ITA) 1297.75 1269.75 29(1) 0(1) 24+15 R2 v Pisnik(31)
21 21 Magdalena Maleeva (BUL) 1229 1266 (1) 38(1)
22 22 Fabiola Zuluaga (COL) 1197.75 1197.75 (1) 0(1)
23 23 Magui Serna (ESP) 1138.25 1138.25 (20) 1(14) 25+10 R1 v Mandula(38)#
24 25 Lisa Raymond (USA) 1117.25 1117.25 (1) 0(1)
25 26 Maria Sharapova (RUS) 1101.25 1101.25 (-) 0(-)
26 24 Nathalie Dechy (FRA) 1054 1119 (1) 66(1) 25+10 R1 v Pierce(37)
27 27 Svetlana Kuznetsova (RUS) 1042 1067 (1) 26(1)
28 30 Meghann Shaughnessy (USA) 995 995 (1) 0(1)
29 32 Amanda Coetzer (RSA) 960 960 (1) 0(1)
30 31 Tina Pisnik (SLO) 956.5 988.5 33(12) 65(12) 24+23 R2 v Farina-Elia(20)
31 28 Lina Krasnoroutskaya (RUS) 938 1047 (1) 110(1)
32 33 Eleni Daniilidou (GRE) 931.75 931.75 1(23) 0(2) R1 L Sanchez-Lorenzo(45)
33 34 Alicia Molik (AUS) 931 931 (1) 0(1)
34 35 Elena Bovina (RUS) 930 930 (1) 0(1) 25+8 R1 v Medina-Garigues(60)
35 29 Daniela Hantuchova (SLV) 910 1028 (1) 119(1) 25+0 R1 v Testud(NR)
36 37 Mary Pierce (FRA) 858 882 (-) 24(-) 25+23 R1 v Dechy(24)
37 38 Petra Mandula (HUN) 837 837 (1) 1(1) 25+23 R1 v Serna(23)#
38 39 Saori Obata (JPN) 836.5 836.5 (?) 0(2)
40 40 Dinara Safina (RUS) 813.5 829.75 27.75(-)44(-) 25+8 R1 v Jankovic(71)#
39 41 Maria Vento-Kabchi (VEN) 791 821 (1) 31(1) 25+10 R1 v Sprem(48)#
41 42 Shinobu Asagoe (JPN) 783.75 783.75 (1) 0(-)
42 45 Maria Sanchez Lorenzo (ESP) 783 750 40(2) 7(2) 24+75 R2 v Clijsters(2)
43 36 Elena Likhovtseva (RUS) 770.25 909.25 (1) 140(1)
44 43 Laura Granville (USA) 767 767 (?) 0(1)
45 44 Emilie Loit (FRA) 761.5 761.5 1(1) 1(1) R1 L Schiavone(18)
46 46 Ashley Harkleroad (USA) 736.75 736.75 (1) 0(1)
47 47 Cara Black (ZIM) 734.25 734.25 (1) 1(1)
48 48 Karolina Sprem (CRO) 731.75 701 31.75(1)0(1) 25+10 R1 v Vento-Kabchi(41)#
49 49 Katarina Srebotnik (SLO) 694 694 (1) 0(1)
50 50 Amy Frazier (USA) 674.75 674.75 (1) 0(1)

Abreviations:
Rnk = Ranking today
PRk = Previous ranking (9/2)
Nat = Nationality
Pts = Points
PPt = Previous points (9/2)
Add = Points added this week (17th score)
Off = Points coming off this week (18th score)
Nxt = Points if wins next match (round+quality)
Rnd = Round (R1, R2, R3, R4, QF, SF, F)
Res = Result (L = lost, W = won, v = versus)
Opp = Last/Next opponent

QUEENLINDSAY
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:19 PM
You have to rely on the Belgians because you know LD probably isn't going to turn the H2H around. In the Belgians rise to #1 and #2 what is their record against Venus??
We both know that Lindsay is almost done in her career and its probably end in a year or two. Why dont you accept that Justine is the holder of 3 GS now????
If only thw williams sisters faced her, they you would know.

I'm not relying on the belgians, I just happen to know the truth!!!!!

Knizzle
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:20 PM
We both know that Lindsay is almost done in her career and its probably end in a year or two. Why dont you accept that Justine is the holder of 3 GS now????
If only thw williams sisters faced her, they you would know.

I'm not relying on the belgians, I just happen to know the truth!!!!!

Good job, avoid the question. Wise decision.

QUEENLINDSAY
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:23 PM
Bad job!!!! bad decision, avoiding the truth!!!!!!

Andrew.
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:25 PM
At least Lindsay has gotten far enough in tournaments to play top players this year.......

Knizzle
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:26 PM
Bad job!!!! bad decision, avoiding the truth!!!!!!

Truth is

Venus vs. Justine 7-1

Venus vs. Kim 5-2

Andrew.
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:28 PM
The truth is.......

WTA Tour Rankings as of February 9, 2004.

Knizzle
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:29 PM
The truth is.......

WTA Tour Rankings as of February 9, 2004.

Yes, that's the truth, but when you are off tour for so long, you can't defend points. That's not hard to comprehend, is it??

Andrew.
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:31 PM
Yes, that's the truth, but when you are off tour for so long, you can't defend points. That's not hard to comprehend, is it??

It's hard to comprehend why with a SSR of 3 you would lose to a woman ranked outside of the top 25.

Knizzle
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:33 PM
It's hard to comprehend why with a SSR of 3 you would lose to a woman ranked outside of the top 25.

She doesn't lose to anyone besides Serena in the top ten so the law of averages says she has to lose to someone.

Andrew.
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:34 PM
She doesn't lose to anyone besides Serena in the top ten so the law of averages says she has to lose to someone.

:haha:

Knizzle
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:37 PM
:haha:

How did LD lose to Bovina and Farina Elia in 2003??

QUEENLINDSAY
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:38 PM
:haha:
LOL!!!!!!! LOL!!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

QUEENLINDSAY
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:40 PM
How did LD lose to Bovina and Farina Elia in 2003??
We never argued that Linds is off form and un concentrated in 2003!!!!!
Those are legitimate loss!!!!!!!
And thats the thing you cant accept now!!!!!

tennisIlove09
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:40 PM
I believe Venus will fall to 17, not 18 :o

Fact:
Venus is the best player to be ranked 17 EVER.

Fact:
Venus would be not ranked outside the top 4 if she wasn't injured for 6 months.

Fact:
If you believe anyone (other than Serena) is better then Venus that is ranked ahead of her, you are fooling yourself. The stats don't lie.

QUEENLINDSAY
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:40 PM
Truth is

Venus vs. Justine 7-1

Venus vs. Kim 5-2
I think Venus record is almost the same if not worst vs Lindsay before she turned it around.

Knizzle
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:40 PM
We never argued that Linds is off form and un concentrated in 2003!!!!!
Those are legitimate loss!!!!!!!
And thats the thing you cant accept now!!!!!

Let loveulindsay answer the question.

~ The Leopard ~
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:41 PM
Amelie is not doing a bad job of masterful inaction either. Still holding down the # 3 position.

*trying to work out what Venus has to do with this thread*

Knizzle
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:41 PM
I think Venus record is almost the same if not worst vs Lindsay before she turned it around.

Venus is not Lindsay and the Belgians are not Venus.

QUEENLINDSAY
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:42 PM
I believe Venus will fall to 17, not 18 :o

Fact:
Venus is the best player to be ranked 17 EVER.

Fact:
Venus would be not ranked outside the top 4 if she wasn't injured for 6 months.

Fact:
If you believe anyone (other than Serena) is better then Venus that is ranked ahead of her, you are fooling yourself. The stats don't lie.
men!!! Linds was out for 9 months and she dont go below 15!!!!!!!
Also venus is only out for 4 months two months is not supposed to be count during the off season beacuse nobody is adding or subtracting points at that time.

QUEENLINDSAY
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:44 PM
Venus is not Lindsay and the Belgians are not Venus.
You obiously cant comprehend a trend!!!!!!

QUEENLINDSAY
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:46 PM
OK I'm done here, i need to go home!!!!!!

I just really hate it when someone is bashing Lindsay!!!!!! as if their fave is doing better.

Knizzle
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:47 PM
You obiously cant comprehend a trend!!!!!!

That's not a trend....I don't even know why I'm still talking to you because you aren't on my level. Have a nice day.

Andrew.
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:50 PM
That's not a trend....I don't even know why I'm still talking to you because you aren't on my level. Have a nice day.

You're right, we're not retards.

tennisIlove09
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:51 PM
men!!! Linds was out for 9 months and she dont go below 15!!!!!!!
Also venus is only out for 4 months two months is not supposed to be count during the off season beacuse nobody is adding or subtracting points at that time.
Let's review though. In the 6 months Venus was out, she couldn't defend 3 titles; 1 FINALS appearence of a major; and semi of the YEC.

Davenport also had more then 4 or 5 tournaments under her belt as well ;)

Knizzle
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:51 PM
You're right, we're not retards.

:haha:

Kids!! Gotta love 'em!!

tennisIlove09
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:53 PM
:haha:

Kids!! Gotta love 'em!!
LMFAO! Says who?

Andrew.
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:53 PM
:haha:

Kids!! Gotta love 'em!!

;) On that note, I think we should stop. True to all. Congrats on Lindsay's new rank, and Venus should be able to return to the top come Wimby. Cheers. :)

for-sure
Feb 9th, 2004, 10:00 PM
Venus needs to stop getting injured so much

Robbie.
Feb 9th, 2004, 10:15 PM
Fact 1 :
Venus has not won a slam since 2001

Fact 2:
Venus has played 8 GS tournaments since she last won a slam. She has only missed ONE, contrary to her fans propaganda that she has somehow barely had any chance's to PROVE she is the best in recent years.:tape:

Fact 3:
Jennifer Capriati has won a slam more recently than Venus :eek:

Fact 4:
If we transpose Venus' GS drought on to Martina Hingis' - 9 slams passing by since she won one - we see Martina at Wimbledon 2001. By that stage there were very real doubts that she would ever win a major again.

Fact 5:
Venus fans like to say that only Serena has prevented her from adding to her GS title bank since 2001. This is true is some cases but she has also lost to Seles, Zvonareva and Raymond at majors since her last win. In any case I think this argument is self-defeatist. Its like saying Kim would be a great champion, if she hadn't run into Justine in the last 3 GS finals. It didn't happen, you weren't the best at that point, so its nonsense. :tape:

Fact 6:
Justine Henin-Hardenne has won three slams in the last twelve months, Venus WAS present in two of those slams, but didn't venture far enough to meet the Belgian.

Fact 7:
Since Serena asserted herself as the number one player in the world Venus has ZERO victories over her. Since Henin started winning slams Venus has ZERO victories over her (admittedly they haven't met, but it is worth noting that before Justine's transformation, Kim also held a commanding 7-2 h2h lead against her - a lot of good that has done her in recent times)

My Opinion:

Venus can still beat ANYONE in the world when she is at her best (maybe not Serena). I also think that Monica Seles at her best can beat virtually ANYONE. HOWEVER Venus, like Monica, has not shown her best for a LONG time (injuries of course have played a big part in both cases). Venus has not played her best tennis in the last year, the rankings therefore reflect her results in the past twelve months. Venus MUST PROVE that she is still deserving of the status her fans endow upon her. Unlike Serena, Venus WAS NOT winning slams before she left. Since her come back she HAS NOT lived up to the inflated ranking the WTA have given her. I cannot except that Venus is the #2 player in the world (like her fans are saying), until she starts playing like one. If she plays like she did at the AO I would back MOST of the top 20 to beat her so maybe her 17 ranking is an accurate inditement after all.

CapFan#1
Feb 9th, 2004, 10:36 PM
Fact 1 :
Venus has not won a slam since 2001

Fact 2:
Venus has played 8 GS tournaments since she last won a slam. She has only missed ONE, contrary to her fans propaganda that she has somehow barely had any chance's to PROVE she is the best in recent years.:tape:

Fact 3:
Jennifer Capriati has won a slam more recently than Venus :eek:

Fact 4:
If we transpose Venus' GS drought on to Martina Hingis' - 9 slams passing by since she won one - we see Martina at Wimbledon 2001. By that stage there were very real doubts that she would ever win a major again.

Fact 5:
Venus fans like to say that only Serena has prevented her from adding to her GS title bank since 2001. This is true is some cases but she has also lost to Seles, Zvonareva and Raymond at majors since her last win. In any case I think this argument is self-defeatist. Its like saying Kim would be a great champion, if she hadn't run into Justine in the last 3 GS finals. It didn't happen, you weren't the best at that point, so its nonsense. :tape:

Fact 6:
Justine Henin-Hardenne has won three slams in the last twelve months, Venus WAS present in two of those slams, but didn't venture far enough to meet the Belgian.

Fact 7:
Since Serena asserted herself as the number one player in the world Venus has ZERO victories over her. Since Henin started winning slams Venus has ZERO victories over her (admittedly they haven't met, but it is worth noting that before Justine's transformation, Kim also held a commanding 7-2 h2h lead against her - a lot of good that has done her in recent times)

My Opinion:

Venus can still beat ANYONE in the world when she is at her best (maybe not Serena). I also think that Monica Seles at her best can beat virtually ANYONE. HOWEVER Venus, like Monica, has not shown her best for a LONG time (injuries of course have played a big part in both cases). Venus has not played her best tennis in the last year, the rankings therefore reflect her results in the past twelve months. Venus MUST PROVE that she is still deserving of the status her fans endow upon her. Unlike Serena, Venus WAS NOT winning slams before she left. Since her come back she HAS NOT lived up to the inflated ranking the WTA have given her. I cannot except that Venus is the #2 player in the world (like her fans are saying), until she starts playing like one. If she plays like she did at the AO I would back MOST of the top 20 to beat her so maybe her 17 ranking is an accurate inditement after all.
couldn't have said it better:worship:

bello
Feb 9th, 2004, 10:42 PM
Amelie is definbately taking good advantage of the Williams' absence, wish Jen was well so she could be doing the same, she is doing well without playing, imagine with some matches under her belt, and if she has played AO!!!

bello
Feb 9th, 2004, 10:46 PM
Yep, GREAT POST ROB!!!!!! Very well said!!

Mase
Feb 9th, 2004, 10:52 PM
That was a great post Rob ;) Well said.

Robbie.
Feb 9th, 2004, 10:54 PM
Oh this has turned into the Jenn fan's convention :D ;)

Knizzle
Feb 9th, 2004, 11:06 PM
Fact 1 :
Venus has not won a slam since 2001

True

Fact 2:
Venus has played 8 GS tournaments since she last won a slam. She has only missed ONE, contrary to her fans propaganda that she has somehow barely had any chance's to PROVE she is the best in recent years.:tape:

I don't know who said this. For the record she was seriously injured at 2 of those.

Fact 3:
Jennifer Capriati has won a slam more recently than Venus :eek:

What does this have to do with anything??

Fact 4:
If we transpose Venus' GS drought on to Martina Hingis' - 9 slams passing by since she won one - we see Martina at Wimbledon 2001. By that stage there were very real doubts that she would ever win a major again.

Venus is not Martina. Not the same situation at all. Hingis was getting beat by all the top players, Serena is the only one consistently beating Venus at slams.

Fact 5:
Venus fans like to say that only Serena has prevented her from adding to her GS title bank since 2001. This is true is some cases but she has also lost to Seles, Zvonareva and Raymond at majors since her last win. In any case I think this argument is self-defeatist. Its like saying Kim would be a great champion, if she hadn't run into Justine in the last 3 GS finals. It didn't happen, you weren't the best at that point, so its nonsense. :tape:

So 5 of 8 slams she was beaten by Serena in the finals, seems like Serena is the culprit. If Venus had been the best on those days she would have won, but they fact is that none of the other top players are beating her with any consistency, especially at the slams.

Fact 6:
Justine Henin-Hardenne has won three slams in the last twelve months, Venus WAS present in two of those slams, but didn't venture far enough to meet the Belgian.

Was Venus 100% healthy at any of those slams??

Fact 7:
Since Serena asserted herself as the number one player in the world Venus has ZERO victories over her. Since Henin started winning slams Venus has ZERO victories over her (admittedly they haven't met, but it is worth noting that before Justine's transformation, Kim also held a commanding 7-2 h2h lead against her - a lot of good that has done her in recent times)

Venus is not Kim, you can't use that type of comparison. Venus beat Justine easily in 2003. According to her fans, she had her transformation at R of 16 Aussie Open 2003 against Davenport.

My Opinion:

Venus can still beat ANYONE in the world when she is at her best (maybe not Serena). I also think that Monica Seles at her best can beat virtually ANYONE. HOWEVER Venus, like Monica, has not shown her best for a LONG time (injuries of course have played a big part in both cases). Venus has not played her best tennis in the last year, the rankings therefore reflect her results in the past twelve months. Venus MUST PROVE that she is still deserving of the status her fans endow upon her. Unlike Serena, Venus WAS NOT winning slams before she left. Since her come back she HAS NOT lived up to the inflated ranking the WTA have given her. I cannot except that Venus is the #2 player in the world (like her fans are saying), until she starts playing like one. If she plays like she did at the AO I would back MOST of the top 20 to beat her so maybe her 17 ranking is an accurate inditement after all.

Her #17 ranking is not accurate and only a fool would think that. Lisa Raymond played a spectacular match and Venus had and off day along with being injured. Venus only has 7 tournaments, do you really think her rankings reflect her level of play or that she has been injured??

Frank Riley
Feb 9th, 2004, 11:23 PM
Is that because Serena Williams is falling as fast as a brick :devil:

Robbie.
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:04 AM
Was Venus 100% healthy at any of those slams??
I can't remember the last time Venus was 100% :sad: I mean that is part of Venus' package for as long as I can remember, even when she was winning slams. Its unfortunate that Venus is injured so often, but sadly I think she is going to be playing with injury for most of the remainder of her career. If that means she can't play as well as she could when 100% right then its too bad.



Venus is not Kim, you can't use that type of comparison. Venus beat Justine easily in 2003. According to her fans, she had her transformation at R of 16 Aussie Open 2003 against Davenport.
Of course I can and I will. Firstly while the match against Lindsay was a turning point, I wouldn't say that she was "transformed" after that match. As well as being beaten by Venus, she was also hammered by Clijsters and then Rubin in subsequent tournaments. The point of reference for the transformed Justine really should be Charleston. Secondly, of course the fact that Justine turned around some pretty miserable head to heads over the past year is relevant. After losing 7 of her first 9 matches against Clijsters (mostly in straight sets too) she has won 5 of the last 7, and one of the losses was by default when she was leading. After losing 4 of the first 5 matches against Serena she has now won 2 of the last 3. After losing the first 5 matches against Lindsay she has won the last 2. Having never beaten Jennifer on hardcourt she has now won their last 3 matches on hard court. All these turnarounds have happened SINCE her last meeting with Venus. Now Venus may well be the exception to the rule, but I would like to see her PROVE that she can beat Justine before I say that she is better than her.



Her #17 ranking is not accurate and only a fool would think that. Lisa Raymond played a spectacular match and Venus had and off day along with being injured. Venus only has 7 tournaments, do you really think her rankings reflect her level of play or that she has been injured??
The only fool here is someone who would say that Venus is clearly the #2 player in the world when she has done NOTHING in 12 months to prove that she is worthy of this distinction. Her only decent tourney is Wimbledon, elsewhere she has been beaten by Raymond, Zvonareva and Shaughnessy and defaulted against Mauresmo and to reach those rounds she has beaten nobody special. I know that she has been relentlessly dogged by injury that has prevented her from reaching her peak level, but it has been so long since she has reached that level that I am not sure that given her propensity to injure herself she is ever going to regain it. #17 is probably a little low, but from her three matches at the AO I would say that at best she is playing like a low level top ten player in the 8-12 region. For injury or whatever reason, Venus has not played like a top 5 player the times she has fronted up to play in the past 12 months. No doubt that Venus AT HER BEST is among the best 2 or 3 in the world, but until Venus PROVES that she is playing at HER BEST, I am not going to diss players who have PROVEN their worth over the last 12 months. Do you understand, THIS IS NOT A DISS ON VENUS.

Knizzle
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:07 AM
Rob, your first post was enough of a diss of Venus. Venus doesn't have to prove that she can beat Justine, Justine has to prove that she can beat Venus.

Robbie.
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:20 AM
Rob, your first post was enough of a diss of Venus. Venus doesn't have to prove that she can beat Justine, Justine has to prove that she can beat Venus.
Its not so much that Venus has to prove that she can beat Justine as that she has to prove that she is top 5 material again, and to do that she is going to have have to beat the top 5.

Justine has her own point to prove. She is #1 but has to prove that she can stay there, and to stay there she is obviously going to have to beat challengers such as Venus.

It's absurd to say Venus has nothing to prove by beating Justine. Of course she does, she can't live on her past head to heads forever, even if her fans can.

Knizzle
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:22 AM
Its not so much that Venus has to prove that she can beat Justine as that she has to prove that she is top 5 material again, and to do that she is going to have have to beat the top 5.

Justine has her own point to prove. She is #1 but has to prove that she can stay there, and to stay there she is obviously going to have to beat challengers such as Venus.

It's absurd to say Venus has nothing to prove by beating Justine. Of course she does, she can't live on her past head to heads forever, even if her fans can.

She will only prove that she is still dominant over Justine. Just because Vee was off tour for 6 months doesn't wipe away everything that happened last year. What would make anyone think that Venus can't beat the top 5. That's absurd.

Robbie.
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:24 AM
And my first post was not a diss on Venus. It was facts and facts are never disrespectful. My opinion about Venus was actually very complimentary. I'm sure Venus realises she has a point to prove. She has done very well at proving herself in the past. If you have such supreme confidence in her then you should take the rose coloured glasses off and accept that she is down at the moment and stop babbling on about past exploits.

QUEENLINDSAY
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:25 AM
Rob, your first post was enough of a diss of Venus. Venus doesn't have to prove that she can beat Justine, Justine has to prove that she can beat Venus.
Well venus needs to prove first that she get to the final first before Justine beats her.

sartrista7
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:26 AM
Tennis is not measured by who beats who... as Volcana's thread elsewhere states, it is measured by how many Slams you win. Justine doesn't have to prove she can win Slams, having won 3 of the last 4. Venus does have to prove she can win Slams again. I think she can and will (which is more than I can say for Capriati or Davenport), but at this stage in her career, her ability to do so cannot be assumed.

Really, nothing further needs to be said after Rob's posts (which, as a fan of Venus, I don't see as a diss at all - merely the unvarnished truth).

Robbie.
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:27 AM
She will only prove that she is still dominant over Justine. Just because Vee was off tour for 6 months doesn't wipe away everything that happened last year. What would make anyone think that Venus can't beat the top 5. That's absurd.
And if she does (which I have a suspicion she will IF fully fit, A BIG IF) I will tip my hat to her. Until then Justine is #1 and Venus is outside of the top ten.

Knizzle
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:27 AM
And my first post was not a diss on Venus. It was facts and facts are never disrespectful. My opinion about Venus was actually very complimentary. I'm sure Venus realises she has a point to prove. She has done very well at proving herself in the past. If you have such supreme confidence in her then you should take the rose coloured glasses off and accept that she is down at the moment and stop babbling on about past exploits.

It wasn't a diss, but yet you mentioned that Cappy has won a slam more recently than her which had nothing to do with nothing. Venus has played 2 tournies since she has been back and has lost at one and retired the other. If a player can be considered, "down" because of their results at 2 tournaments then TONS of players are down at this moment.

Robbie.
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:28 AM
Tennis is not measured by who beats who... as Volcana's thread elsewhere states, it is measured by how many Slams you win. Justine doesn't have to prove she can win Slams, having won 3 of the last 4. Venus does have to prove she can win Slams again. I think she can and will (which is more than I can say for Capriati or Davenport), but at this stage in her career, her ability to do so cannot be assumed.

Really, nothing further needs to be said after Rob's posts (which, as a fan of Venus, I don't see as a diss at all - merely the unvarnished truth).
Thank You :worship:

Knizzle
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:29 AM
And if she does (which I have a suspicion she will IF fully fit, A BIG IF) I will tip my hat to her. Until then Justine is #1 and Venus is outside of the top ten.

No one cares if Justine is #1, where did that even come into the conversation?? Just because she is #1 doesn't mean she will all of a sudden beat Venus.

Robbie.
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:29 AM
It wasn't a diss, but yet you mentioned that Cappy has won a slam more recently than her which had nothing to do with nothing. Venus has played 2 tournies since she has been back and has lost at one and retired the other. If a player can be considered, "down" because of their results at 2 tournaments then TONS of players are down at this moment.
Not two tournaments, a whole year. Venus has played ONE good tournament in a year. Injury or not, one tournament does not a top 5 player make.

Knowles
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:31 AM
Venus shouldn't lose any ranking points, she didn't play Open Gaz de France last year. Serena did though and she won so a lot of her points will fall off.

Knizzle
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:32 AM
Not two tournaments, a whole year. Venus has played ONE good tournament in a year. Injury or not, one tournament does not a top 5 player make.

The Aussie Open 2003 was such a terrible tournament for Venus. So was Wimbledon. She was injured in the final of Warsaw where she was up a set over Mauresmo before eventually having to retire with the stomach strain. Miami she got flat out beaten that day. French she was still injured.

Robbie.
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:33 AM
No one cares if Justine is #1, where did that even come into the conversation?? Just because she is #1 doesn't mean she will all of a sudden beat Venus.
Of course it comes into the conversation when you are saying that Venus is undoubtedly the second best player in the world to Serena's #1. The fact that someone other than Venus or Serena holds the number one ranking outside of your parallel universe is entirely relevant. And no the fact that she is #1 doesn't make her a certainty to beat Venus. I would like to know though why you assume that Venus (and an unfit Venus and that) is going to be the exception to the rule that Justine has turned the tables on each and every top 5 player in the last year including Serena (who I admit Justine still has MUCH to prove against as she was actually #1 when she left the sport).

Robbie.
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:35 AM
The Aussie Open 2003 was such a terrible tournament for Venus. So was Wimbledon. She was injured in the final of Warsaw where she was up a set over Mauresmo before eventually having to retire with the stomach strain. Miami she got flat out beaten that day. French she was still injured.The Aussie 2003 is no longer counted in the past 52 weeks. Yes, Wimbledon was great but you have done nothing to disprove the fact that it is the only tournament she has played good ball in for twelve months. She beat no one to reach the Warsaw final.

QUEENLINDSAY
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:36 AM
Venus was actually sick all throughout 2003, its just a miracle she won matches!!!!!!!
lol!!!!! Do you think Venus will be healthy ever????

Diya
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:37 AM
{{{RoB}}}

:worship: Great Post :worship:

Go Monica and Jennifer !!

Knizzle
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:39 AM
The Aussie 2003 is no longer counted in the past 52 weeks. Yes, Wimbledon was great but you have done nothing to disprove the fact that it is the only tournament she has played good ball in for twelve months. She beat no one to reach the Warsaw final.She only played 6 tournaments last year and she was injured at 3 of them. You just don't get it.

Knizzle
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:41 AM
Of course it comes into the conversation when you are saying that Venus is undoubtedly the second best player in the world to Serena's #1. The fact that someone other than Venus or Serena holds the number one ranking outside of your parallel universe is entirely relevant. And no the fact that she is #1 doesn't make her a certainty to beat Venus. I would like to know though why you assume that Venus (and an unfit Venus and that) is going to be the exception to the rule that Justine has turned the tables on each and every top 5 player in the last year including Serena (who I admit Justine still has MUCH to prove against as she was actually #1 when she left the sport).

Tell me where I said anything about Venus or Serena being #1 and #2?? You won't find it because I never said anything like that. Justine turned the tables on Serena just because she was 2-1 against her?? I don't think so. I think you just want someone so badly to be able to beat the sisters consistently and NO ONE on tour can do it, no matter what their ranking.

Robbie.
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:43 AM
She only played 6 tournaments last year and she was injured at 3 of them. You just don't get it.
I get it perfectly. Venus was injured. So what? Lindsay was NUMBER ONE when she left the tour for her knee surgery in January 2002. When she got back SEVEN MONTHS LATER she had to PROVE that she was good enough to hold that ranking again. Well 18 months have past, and she has not proven it. Will Venus?? I don't know. She has a good chance, but until she does it I am not going to say she is better than Justine who has proven herself here and now.

Hazy
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:43 AM
The Aussie 2003 is no longer counted in the past 52 weeks. Yes, Wimbledon was great but you have done nothing to disprove the fact that it is the only tournament she has played good ball in for twelve months. She beat no one to reach the Warsaw final.
What about Antwerp?

sartrista7
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:44 AM
As a fan my main concern is actually the fact that we're now seeing results like AO 2003 and Wimbledon 2003 as excellent ones. I'm sorry, but by Venus's standards I don't consider those to be excellent. Where did the player who was so mentally strong in Slam finals go? Even if she can surpass Justine and Kim again... if she can't find a way past Serena, it's pretty much in vain.

Robbie.
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:49 AM
Tell me where I said anything about Venus or Serena being #1 and #2?? You won't find it because I never said anything like that. Justine turned the tables on Serena just because she was 2-1 against her?? I don't think so. I think you just want someone so badly to be able to beat the sisters consistently and NO ONE on tour can do it, no matter what their ranking.
She did turn the tables as far as tunining a deficit into a winning head to head.

And you are completely wrong about me wanting the sisters to get beaten. I detest Justine. I think that if the tour is at full strength she probably would not have won her three slams. But alas it isn't, and I have to recognise her as the number one player at this point in time and not dellude myself that a player who hasn't won a slam in three years is better than her.

For the record I can't wait for Serena to come back and kick Juju's ass :devil:

Knizzle
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:49 AM
As a fan my main concern is actually the fact that we're now seeing results like AO 2003 and Wimbledon 2003 as excellent ones. I'm sorry, but by Venus's standards I don't consider those to be excellent. Where did the player who was so mentally strong in Slam finals go? Even if she can surpass Justine and Kim again... if she can't find a way past Serena, it's pretty much in vain.

She showed she was on her way to battling it out with Serena in 2003. Damn stomach injury in the Wimbledon final. She had a great chance to beat Serena.

sartrista7
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:52 AM
Yes that was clear, but my fear now is that Venus will go down in history as someone permanently hindered by injuries! I have no idea where they're even coming from, it's not as if she ever over-plays.

Knizzle
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:52 AM
She did turn the tables as far as tunining a deficit into a winning head to head.

And you are completely wrong about me wanting the sisters to get beaten. I detest Justine. I think that if the tour is at full strength she probably would not have won her three slams. But alas it isn't, and I have to recognise her as the number one player at this point in time and not dellude myself that a player who hasn't won a slam in three years is better than her.

For the record I can't wait for Serena to come back and kick Juju's ass :devil:I never said Venus was better than Justine right now. If Venus gets back into the form she showed at her last tourney in 2003, I don't think Justine can touch her.

All I said is that Venus doesn't have to prove she can beat Justine because she is 7-1 against her and Venus isn't comparable to any other player for anyone to say that Justine can turn the H2H around, we just have to wait and see. Time will tell.

At their best Venus' tennis > Justine's tennis, IMHO.

Robbie.
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:54 AM
I never said Venus was better than Justine right now. If Venus gets back into the form she showed at her last tourney in 2003, I don't think Justine can touch her.
OK fair enough. But atleast recognise that it is an IF.

Knizzle
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:55 AM
Yes that was clear, but my fear now is that Venus will go down in history as someone permanently hindered by injuries! I have no idea where they're even coming from, it's not as if she ever over-plays.

Sometimes you have to go through trials and tribulations in life, they come to make you stronger. Venus just has to have faith that God knows the correct path for her life in and out of tennis.

Knizzle
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:59 AM
OK fair enough. But atleast recognise that it is an IF.
I wouldn't say that Venus couldn't get back to that level of tennis. It's more of a when. Venus is very strong mentally so it's only a matter of time. People try to compare Davenport, but she sometimes got down on herself in matches during her time at #1, Venus (and Serena) are alot different than the other players on tour, especially in the emotional department.

Diya
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:59 AM
At their best Venus' tennis > Justine's tennis, IMHO.

And you think we've seen Justine's best tennis already ? :confused:

sartrista7
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:59 AM
Oh, I'm sure she'll be happy and stuff, and out of all my current faves only Justine even comes close to her achievements... I just want to see her cement her legacy in tennis history. HER legacy, not her sister's. And it should be much bigger than it is now.

Robbie.
Feb 10th, 2004, 01:00 AM
All I said is that Venus doesn't have to prove she can beat Justine because she is 7-1 against her and Venus isn't comparable to any other player for anyone to say that Justine can turn the H2H around, we just have to wait and see. Time will tell.
I kind of agree. Sure Venus has been dominant against Juju in the past but it is the task of every player coming back from injury and looking to reassert themselves as the best to beat the player who is currently recognised as the best - at this point in time, Justine. If Venus comes back and consistently beats Juju then she proves that she is STILL better than her. But Justine has SIGNIFICANTLY improved since they last met, and I am not sure if Venus has or can or will be permitted (by injury) to recapture her best. There is some doubt there.

At their best Venus' tennis > Justine's tennis, IMHO.With what they have showed us so far, I agree with this. Accept maybe on clay.

Knizzle
Feb 10th, 2004, 01:00 AM
And you think we've seen Justine's best tennis already ? :confused:

I meant at this very moment.

sartrista7
Feb 10th, 2004, 01:01 AM
(Re: the Justine thing... Venus isn't going to dominate her like before, this is inevitable. I expect she'll win more matches than she loses, but I can also see the Venus v Justine rivalry becoming quite unpredictable. Which is good as they're my only faves among the Slam contenders :D )

Knizzle
Feb 10th, 2004, 01:05 AM
(Re: the Justine thing... Venus isn't going to dominate her like before, this is inevitable. I expect she'll win more matches than she loses, but I can also see the Venus v Justine rivalry becoming quite unpredictable. Which is good as they're my only faves among the Slam contenders :D )

I agree, I always expected Justine and Kim to knock off the sisters a few times in slams eventually. Like you say, I think Venus will win more than she loses. I think Justine is the favorite on clay against Venus despite their 1-1 record because Justine has the most confidence on that surface. Hard to imagine Justine winning on hard or grass, but I suspect she will get a few victories on slower hardcourts.

Diya
Feb 10th, 2004, 01:07 AM
. Like you say, I think Venus will win more than she loses.


That should read ," I HOPE Venus will win more than she loses" .... :devil:

Knizzle
Feb 10th, 2004, 01:08 AM
That should read ," I HOPE Venus will win more than she loses" .... :devil:

Diya, I actually respect Rob and Sartrista's opinions, but yours means nothing to me. I don't have to tell you why.

sartrista7
Feb 10th, 2004, 01:10 AM
I agree, I always expected Justine and Kim to knock off the sisters a few times in slams eventually. Like you say, I think Venus will win more than she loses. I think Justine is the favorite on clay against Venus despite their 1-1 record because Justine has the most confidence on that surface. Hard to imagine Justine winning on hard or grass, but I suspect she will get a few victories on slower hardcourts.

Justine's the favourite against everyone on clay... that Venus win came after Justine was 6-2 4-0 up, back in the days when she was Queen Choke.

I can see Justine beating Venus on hard and grass. Not regularly, but occasionally. Just like they'll occasionally beat her on clay. What makes the rivalry so appetising is waiting to see whether those 'occasional' wins will come in big matches.

Knizzle
Feb 10th, 2004, 01:12 AM
Justine's the favourite against everyone on clay... that Venus win came after Justine was 6-2 4-0 up, back in the days when she was Queen Choke.

I can see Justine beating Venus on hard and grass. Not regularly, but occasionally. Just like they'll occasionally beat her on clay. What makes the rivalry so appetising is waiting to see whether those 'occasional' wins will come in big matches.

The grass I don't know about because Venus will ONLY play Wimbledon and I doubt Justine will beat her there. She could knock Venus off at Miami or during th Australian season or indoors, but during Venus summer I don't expect it.

DannerCal
Feb 10th, 2004, 01:13 AM
Wow - Sorry for the error. I was going to delete this thread, but what a debate going on :).

If we are just throwing stuff in; Jennifer has never lost in a grand slam final. :)
That is something not many can say!

Diya
Feb 10th, 2004, 01:14 AM
Venus record in slam finals 4/11 = < 40%

sartrista7
Feb 10th, 2004, 01:17 AM
The grass I don't know about because Venus will ONLY play Wimbledon and I doubt Justine will beat her there. She could knock Venus off at Miami or during th Australian season or indoors, but during Venus summer I don't expect it.

They both have a good half decade left of their careers... and lots of champions have lost in their personal playgrounds before. I mean, Navratilova lost to Martinez of all people at Wimbledon - and who expected Davenport to beat Graf in '99?

For the record I don't think Kim will be able to keep up with any of them. I've been saying for yeeeears now that Justine would be the bigger threat to the Williams sisters, and ta-da, she is. While I expect Kim to win a Slam at some point... it wouldn't exactly shock me if she never did.

Knizzle
Feb 10th, 2004, 01:17 AM
Venus record in slam finals 4/11 = < 40%

Someone should tell Diya's Venus actual record and then teach her how to divide and calculate percentages.
:tape:

¤CharlDa¤
Feb 10th, 2004, 01:19 AM
I can't believe somebody not even playing can climb some spots like that..It shows that there is a failure in the ranking system!

Diya
Feb 10th, 2004, 01:20 AM
Someone should tell Diya's Venus actual record and then teach her how to divide and calculate percentages.
:tape:

I was giving her too much credit

4/10 = 40%

Hurley
Feb 10th, 2004, 02:19 AM
Venus shouldn't lose any ranking points, she didn't play Open Gaz de France last year. Serena did though and she won so a lot of her points will fall off.

There is a stagger this year.

Serena's Paris points came off last week, that's why she dropped from 4 to 7.

Venus will lose her Antwerp points this week.

~ The Leopard ~
Feb 10th, 2004, 02:38 AM
I can't believe somebody not even playing can climb some spots like that..It shows that there is a failure in the ranking system!
No it doesn't. It will happen now and then with any system that uses results over a period of time. If someone fails to defend points from last year, their points will drop. If you don't play but have no points to defend your points won't drop. There's always the theoretical possibility of that combination of circumstances. How else could it work?

LiliaLee-Frazier
Feb 10th, 2004, 03:02 AM
But....Venus will fall down to at least 18, if not lower. :scared:
Now there is a woman who will deserve a wild card if she falls too low..NOT stevenson! :kiss:

Knowles
Feb 10th, 2004, 03:05 AM
There is a stagger this year.

Serena's Paris points came off last week, that's why she dropped from 4 to 7.

Venus will lose her Antwerp points this week.

If this is true than it's awful. I mean it's not fair at all to the players. That means every player will lose points for no reason no matter what because the tour is a week behind the ranking system. Something really should be done about that because it is fair to no one.

Hurley
Feb 10th, 2004, 03:28 AM
If this is true than it's awful. I mean it's not fair at all to the players. That means every player will lose points for no reason no matter what because the tour is a week behind the ranking system. Something really should be done about that because it is fair to no one.

It's true. And as long as they play a tournament that week, they have a chance to defend some points. And even if they don't, it will only affect them for a week until they get a chance to defend them at the tournament where they earned them in 2003.

It's exciting. ;)

Couver
Feb 10th, 2004, 06:43 AM
Wow a thread about Jennifer that go totally hijacked into a thread about Venus LMAO that's just priceless.

All I want is for Venus to be injury free so at least she can enjoy playing and not be in pain. Why do people get so worked up over results??? It casues stress, pointless fighting and blah blah blah. Enjoy your faves while you can, cause they won't be around forever.

~ The Leopard ~
Feb 10th, 2004, 06:59 AM
*still wondering why everyone is blathering about Venus in this thread*