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Volcana
Feb 9th, 2004, 06:45 AM
I'm not saying that's fair. Just true. We can't even GET stats on a lot of old time players, outside of GS titles. So for comparison purposes GS titles is it. That said, here's the ranking of players all-time by GS titles.

THey are ordered by GS singles titles, with a tie-breaker of total GS titles. That actually makes doubles and mixed LESS important than I truly believe they are, but any crude method of estimation has flaws. So too this.
Second tie-breaker is who won a slam most RECENTLY. Hence Justine ahead of Jenn.

By the by.

Maybe today's ON-COURT competition was tougher, but yesterday's OFF-COURT competition, i.e. sexism, was WAY worse. So as far as I'm concerned, it all evens out. Margaret Osborne duPont had to face a LOT more societal flak to even step on the court than Hingis or Williams (2x) ever did.

Active players in bold

The Big Six.

The undisputed Queens of the Court. Or the Queen and her Undisputed Court, except, of course, the Queen IS a Court.

01: 24 - xx - xx (62) 1960-1973 Margaret Smith Court

02: 22 - 01 - 00 (23) 1987-1999 Steffi Graf

03: 19 - 09 - 03 (31) 1923-1938 Helen Wills Moody

04: 18 - 31 - 08 (57) 1978-2003 Martina Navratilova

05: 18 - 03 - 00 (21) 1974-1986 Chris Evert Lloyd

06: 12 - 16 - 11 (39) 1966-1975 Billie Jean King (Thank u, Andy T)

Twin Tragedies if Tennis

07: 09 - 02 - 00 (11) 1951-1954 Maureen Connolly
08: 09 - 00 - 00 (09) 1990-1996 Monica Seles

Un-appreciated Greatness

09: 08 - 08 - 03 (16) 1919-1926 Suzanne Lenglen
10: 08 - 02 - 02 (12) 1915-1926 Molla Bjurstedt Mallory

What's intersting is that most people would consider that to be the top ten, except they'd switch Molla Mallory for Evonne Goolagong. So for a crude method of ranking players all -time, it's pretty good.

They were never the best

11: 07 - 11 - 00 (18) 1959-1966 Maria Bueno
12: 07 - 06 - 01 (14) 1971-1980 Evonne Goolagong

The others

13: 06 - 21 - 09 (36) 1946-1950 Margaret Osborne duPont
14: 06 - 21 - 08 (35) 1947-1955 Louise Brough
15: 06 - 14 - 10 (30) 1949-1955 Doris Hart
16: 06 - 10 - 00 (16) 1937-1951 Nancye Wynne Bolton
17: 06 - 04 - 02 (12) 1999-2003 Serena Williams
18: 06 - 00 - 00 (06) 1908-1908 Maud Barger-Wallach
19: 06 - 00 - 00 (06) 1886-1900 Blanche Bingley

NOTE: Sererna is two GS singles titles form taking the #10 spot form Molla Mallory.

20: 05 - 06 - 07 (18) 1936-1940 Alice Marble
21: 05 - 07 - 00 (12) 1997-1999 Martina Hingis
22: 05 - 05 - 00 (10) 1956-1958 Althea Gibson
23: 05 - 05 - 00 (10) 1925-1930 Daphne Akhurst
24: 05 - 03 - 01 (09) 1932-1936 Helen Jacobs
25: 05 - 00 - 00 (08) 1942-1946 Pauline Betz
26: 05 - 00 - 00 (05) 1895-1908 Charlotte Cooper Sterry
27: 05 - 00 - 00 (05) 1887-1893 Charlotte Dod

28: 04 - 12 - 01 (17) 1951-1957 Shirley Fry
29: 04 - 07 - 06 (17) 1909-1919 Hazel Hotchkiss
30: 04 - 06 - 04 (14) 1989-1998 Arantxa Sanchez Vicario
31: 04 - 04 - 02 (10) 2000-2003 Venus Williams
32: 04 - 02 - 02 (08) 1896-1905 Elisabeth Moore
33: 04 - 01 - 00 (05) 1980-1987 Hana Mandlikova
34: 04 - 00 - 00 (04) 1910-1914 Dorothea Lambert

35: 03 - 13 - 03 (19) 1960-1961 Darlene Hard
36: 03 - 07 - 03 (13) 1895-1898 Juliette Atkinson
37: 03 - 06 - 04 (13) 1912-1914 Mary Browne
38: 03 - 04 - 00 (07) 1968-1977 Virginia Wade
39: 03 - 03 - 00 (06) 1998-2001 Lindsay Davenport
40: 03 - 00 - 00 (03) 2003-2004 Justine Henin-Hardenne
41: 03 - 00 - 00 (03) 2000-2001 Jennifer Capriati

4x: 03 - xx - xx (xx) 1935-1937 Hilda Krahwinkel Sperling*
4x: 03 - xx - xx (xx) 1933-1936 Joan Hartigan*

* need doubles and mixed info

Volcana
Feb 9th, 2004, 06:52 AM
If you limit this to the Open Era, Serena is #8, which IMHO is a perfectly good reason to include everybody. Serena Willaims has in no way had the eighth best career all-time.

And BTW, Martina Navratilova was the best player all-time, with Margaret Curt Smith a close but distinct second.

Andy T
Feb 9th, 2004, 07:20 AM
I'm not saying that's fair. Just true. We can't even GETR stats on a lot of old time players, outside of GS titles. SO for comparison purposes GS titles is it. That said, here's the ranking of players all-time by GS titles.

THey are ordered by GS singles titles, with a tie-breaker of total GS titles. Tha actually makes doubles and mixed LESS important than I truly believe they are, but any crude method of estimation has flaws. So too this.

By the by.

Mayhe today's ONCOURT competition was tougher, but yesterday's OFF-COURT competetion, i.e. sexism, was WAY worse. So as far as I'm concerned, it all evens out. Margaret Osborne duPont had to face a LOT more societal flak to even step on the court than Hingis or Williams (2x) ever did.

Active players in bold

The Big Six.

The undisputed Queens of the Court. Or the Queen and her Undisputed Court, except, of course, the Queen IS a Court.

01: 24 - xx - xx (62) 1960-1973 Margaret Smith Court

02: 22 - 01 - 00 (23) 1987-1999 Steffi Graf

03: 19 - 09 - 03 (31) 1923-1938 Helen Wills Moody

04: 18 - 31 - 08 (57) 1978-2003 Martina Navratilova

05: 18 - 03 - 00 (21) 1974-1986 Chris Evert Lloyd

06: 12 - 08 - 10 (30) 1966-1975 Billie Jean King

Twin Tragedies if Tennis

07: 09 - 02 - 00 (11) 1951-1954 Maureen Connolly
08: 09 - 00 - 00 (09) 1990-1996 Monica Seles

Un-appreciated Greatness

09: 08 - 08 - 03 (16) 1919-1926 Suzanne Lenglen
10: 08 - 02 - 02 (12) 1915-1926 Molla Bjurstedt Mallory

What's intersting is that most people would consider that to be the top ten, except they'd switch Molla Mallory for Evonne Goolagong. So for a crude method of ranking players all -time, it's pretty good.

They were never the best

11: 07 - 11 - 00 (18) 1959-1966 Maria Bueno
12: 07 - 06 - 01 (14) 1971-1980 Evonne Goolagong

The others

13: 06 - 21 - 09 (36) 1946-1950 Margaret Osborne duPont
14: 06 - 21 - 08 (35) 1947-1955 Louise Brough
15: 06 - 14 - 10 (30) 1949-1955 Doris Hart
16: 06 - 10 - 00 (16) 1937-1951 Nancye Wynne Bolton
17: 06 - 04 - 02 (12) 1999-2003 Serena Williams
18: 06 - 00 - 00 (06) 1908-1908 Maud Barger-Wallach
19: 06 - 00 - 00 (06) 1886-1900 Blanche Bingley

NOTE: Sererna is two GS singles titles form taking the #10 spot form Molla Mallory.

20: 05 - 06 - 07 (18) 1936-1940 Alice Marble
21: 05 - 07 - 00 (12) 1997-1999 Martina Hingis
22: 05 - 05 - 00 (10) 1956-1958 Althea Gibson
23: 05 - 05 - 00 (10) 1925-1930 Daphne Akhurst
24: 05 - 03 - 01 (09) 1932-1936 Helen Jacobs
25: 05 - 00 - 00 (08) 1942-1946 Pauline Betz
26: 05 - 00 - 00 (05) 1895-1908 Charlotte Cooper Sterry
27: 05 - 00 - 00 (05) 1887-1893 Charlotte Dod

28: 04 - 12 - 01 (17) 1951-1957 Shirley Fry
29: 04 - 07 - 06 (17) 1909-1919 Hazel Hotchkiss
30: 04 - 06 - 03 (13) 1989-1998 Arantxa Sanchez Vicario
31: 04 - 04 - 02 (10) 2000-2003 Venus Williams
32: 04 - 02 - 02 (08) 1896-1905 Elisabeth Moore
33: 04 - 01 - 00 (05) 1980-1987 Hana Mandlikova
34: 04 - 00 - 00 (04) 1910-1914 Dorothea Lambert

35: 03 - 13 - 03 (19) 1960-1961 Darlene Hard
36: 03 - 07 - 03 (13) 1895-1898 Juliette Atkinson
37: 03 - 06 - 04 (13) 1912-1914 Mary Browne
38: 03 - 04 - 00 (07) 1968-1977 Virginia Wade
39: 03 - 03 - 00 (06) 1998-2001 Lindsay Davenport
40: 03 - 00 - 00 (03) 2003-2004 Justine Henin-Hardenne


Margaret Court's stats are 24 - 19 - 19 (62) 1960-1975 with two unplayed finals in the Aussie mixed not counted. Navratilova has 58 titles, not 57 (1974-2003). Your figures for Evonne Goolagong include a shared women's doubles title (final unplayed) at the Aussie Open. King's last title was in 1979. Capriati also has three singles GS titles. Ann Haydon-Jones is missing:
3 - 3 - 1 (7) 1961-1969 plus one unplayed Aussie mixed final.

I agree that GS titles are a way of separating champions into "tiers" of greatness but within each group you can't just accept the numbers as a ranking order.

antonella
Feb 9th, 2004, 07:46 AM
Does anyone have a list of GS singles titles?? I can't find any..

tennisvideos
Feb 9th, 2004, 08:21 AM
If you limit this to the Open Era, Serena is #8, which IMHO is a perfectly good reason to include everybody. Serena Willaims has in no way had the eighth best career all-time.

And BTW, Martina Navratilova was the best player all-time, with Margaret Curt Smith a close but distinct second.

Don't be so quick to make that distinction about Navratilova & Court. Court won more tournaments (non-Slam) than Navratilova, more Grand Slam singles, more Grand Slam titles - and in about half the years that it took Navratilova to do it. Plus her strike rate in the Slams is far superior to that of Martina (ie. she won a much higher percentage of Slams that she competed in). Happy to dig out the facts. Even if you take away Margaret's Aussie Open wins, her strike rate at the other 3 slams is vastly superior to that of Martina. The only ones who come close in terms of GS singles strike rate in the modern era are Graf and Evert.

You can check out the following thread which has a lot of data on Margaret Court and the Grand Slam strike rates... and if you scroll to the next page you can see I even did the stats without Court's Aussie Open wins and made some other changes to show Martina in a better light:
http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?t=81754&page=4&pp=40

Sam L
Feb 9th, 2004, 08:44 AM
IMO, Graf is #1, and Helen Wills a close 2nd. Wills would be #1, but without the Australian, she cannot be the greatest. Although she never did play in it. How can you win something if you don't even play in it? :shrug:

Andy T
Feb 9th, 2004, 10:19 AM
Don't be so quick to make that distinction about Navratilova & Court. Court won more tournaments (non-Slam) than Navratilova, more Grand Slam singles, more Grand Slam titles - and in about half the years that it took Navratilova to do it. Plus her strike rate in the Slams is far superior to that of Martina (ie. she won a much higher percentage of Slams that she competed in). Happy to dig out the facts. Even if you take away Margaret's Aussie Open wins, her strike rate at the other 3 slams is vastly superior to that of Martina. The only ones who come close in terms of GS singles strike rate in the modern era are Graf and Evert.

You can check out the following thread which has a lot of data on Margaret Court and the Grand Slam strike rates... and if you scroll to the next page you can see I even did the stats without Court's Aussie Open wins and made some other changes to show Martina in a better light:
http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?t=81754&page=4&pp=40

Hey tennisvideos! How are you doing? :wavey:

Tennisvideos knows my views on this already but for the others:

Court's record is indeed phenomenal, with more or less 200 singles titles (we're trying to establish the most exact numbers possible for her and all the greats in Blast From the Past) 1960-1976 despite having been off the circuit from Aug 66-Dec67, from Aug 71-Jul 72 and from Jan-Aug 74. It's undeniable that statistically she is the most prolific winner since 1945 (I don't know enough about before to say) and she deserves to be up there with the very very best. After that, each of us has his/her own perspective and - thank heavens - there is no clinching argument; we should celebrate them all.

My own vote goes to Martina Navratilova but my opinion's only as good as anyone else's.

Volcana
Feb 9th, 2004, 10:31 AM
You're right about Court. In fact, she's who I pick when I run into these 'who's the greatest ever' threads. The reason my pick goes to Martina is Chris. I got to see the whole rivalry, and there's an arguement for CHRIS as best ever. So Martina had the toughest competition.

But as you say, that's just my opinion. Objective fact says Court.

tennisvideos
Feb 9th, 2004, 10:33 AM
Hi Andy T

Hope to catch up with you one day at Roland Garros :) Perhaps 2005.

tennnisfannn
Feb 9th, 2004, 10:39 AM
Hey you forgot Capriati. I would also like to see those who won two or a single slam.

IcePrincess
Feb 9th, 2004, 10:49 AM
Why don't you have Capriati on your list?

If you don't like her, at least make her "tied" with Henin-Hardenne.

:)

tennisvideos
Feb 9th, 2004, 11:10 AM
You're right about Court. In fact, she's who I pick when I run into these 'who's the greatest ever' threads. The reason my pick goes to Martina is Chris. I got to see the whole rivalry, and there's an arguement for CHRIS as best ever. So Martina had the toughest competition.

But as you say, that's just my opinion. Objective fact says Court.

Yes, have to agree that Evert was one of the greatest.

Then again, Court had to contend with a multitude of greats like:
Darlene Hard, Maria Bueno, Billie-Jean King, Evonne Goolagong ... and while most of them were at their peak.

Andy T
Feb 9th, 2004, 11:22 AM
Court, King, Evert and Navratilova met so many of the modern greats. If you look at the tough opponents thread in BFTP, you can see the calibre of many of their adversaries. That each of these four won often enough to carve out her niche in history is a testament to her stature. It'll be great when we can compile full h2h records for all of them against their major rivals.

Gallofa
Feb 9th, 2004, 11:23 AM
30: 04 - 06 - 03 (13) 1989-1998 Arantxa Sanchez Vicario

Arantxa won 4 mixed GS in her career:
2000 - US Open (w/Palmer)
1993 - Australian Open (w/Woodbridge)
1992 - Roland Garros (w/Woodbridge)
1990 - Roland Garros (w/Lozano)

SpikeyAidanm
Feb 9th, 2004, 12:09 PM
U forgot Capriati in the "3 GS title" list.

Andy T
Feb 9th, 2004, 12:10 PM
I reckon there may be a problem with your source(s), Volcana, as many of the totals and/or dates in the list are slightly off. King's stats are off the wall! She won 39 titles in all: 12 singles, 15 or 16 doubles and 11 or 12 mixed (can't remember and no time right now to check it out)

Without launching into the "yes, but" debate that we've all had millions of times, it is important to note that the Aussie Champs didn't happen till 1922 and that the French was "closed" (to French residents only) until about the same time, plus there were the breaks in Europe and Austrlia for the wars, of course, and the turning professional phenomenon,which, though less frequent than for the men, did mean shortened Grand Slam careers for Hard, Gibson, Fry, Hart and Lenglen, amongst others plus a "weaker" top ten as a result.

SpikeyAidanm
Feb 9th, 2004, 12:13 PM
U forgot Elizabeth Ryan too, 19 Wimbledon titles :worship: (and died on the day Billie Jean broke her record)

DA FOREHAND
Feb 9th, 2004, 01:29 PM
I would put my money on STEFFI GRAF.

Break out the Grand Slam %'s

Pamela Shriver
Feb 9th, 2004, 03:22 PM
A player's historical greatness is measured in slam titles
Oh crap.

alexusjonesfan
Feb 9th, 2004, 03:28 PM
Oh crap.
unless they have a lot of friends on the board of the Tennis Hall of Fame and/or are real life bondgirls ;)

Rollo
Feb 9th, 2004, 03:29 PM
Nice thread Volcana:)-funny how they even go into categories like Monica and Mo Connolly.

I think you could make the argument Lenglen more than 8 slams. Most count only the 1925 and 1926 French Opens, but Suzanne won a lot of World Hard Court titles (1914, 1921-23), which really should count, bringing her total to 12.


For those interested in women's grand slam results, the Olympics, and the WTA finals, we are collecting them here:

http://www.wtaworld.com/forumdisplay.php?f=108


Any additions or corrections are welcome!

Andy T
Feb 9th, 2004, 03:29 PM
You confound classification Pam. Your contribution to tennis cannot be measured in mere games, sets and matches. We all know that!

Rollo
Feb 9th, 2004, 03:33 PM
Pamela Shriver wrote:

Oh Crap
Pammy dear. This is a thread about Slam singles titles-NOT your hair dear.

bandabou
Feb 9th, 2004, 05:07 PM
If you limit this to the Open Era, Serena is #8, which IMHO is a perfectly good reason to include everybody. Serena Willaims has in no way had the eighth best career all-time.

And BTW, Martina Navratilova was the best player all-time, with Margaret Curt Smith a close but distinct second.

Considering her age....donīt see many players who have won almost everything at such a young age. If Iīm not mistaken, only Graf completed the career-slam at a younger age than Serena.

LUIS9
Feb 9th, 2004, 05:26 PM
I agree with Andy T, these stats seem lacking, Both Hingis and Serena have 14 grand slams not 12, did Steffi Win a doubles title? Where did that 23rd came from(mixed doubles?) I always thought she won 22?

alfajeffster
Feb 9th, 2004, 05:46 PM
You're right about Court. In fact, she's who I pick when I run into these 'who's the greatest ever' threads. The reason my pick goes to Martina is Chris. I got to see the whole rivalry, and there's an arguement for CHRIS as best ever. So Martina had the toughest competition.

But as you say, that's just my opinion. Objective fact says Court.
Actually, Martina didn't have the toughest competition. She had Evert, a dyed-in-the-wool baseliner, and no really great serve-and-volley competition during her years at the top in the mid-80s. Margaret Court had Maria Bueno, Billie Jean King, Evonne Goolagong and Virginia Wade, all of whom were much more serious competition on a grass court (and 3 of the 4 majors were on grass then) than Chris Evert.

raquel
Feb 9th, 2004, 05:51 PM
I agree with Andy T, these stats seem lacking, Both Hingis and Serena have 14 grand slams not 12, did Steffi Win a doubles title? Where did that 23rd came from(mixed doubles?) I always thought she won 22?Steffi won the 1988 Wimbledon doubles with Sabatini. I also think players like Venus, Hana and Arantxa with four GS in singles and some doubles Slams would be ahead in this list of people like Lottie Dod and Blanche Bingley who won 5 and 6 Wimbledons in the 1800's. I think you only had to win one match if you were defending champion. There is some debate about the standard now compared to the 1950's and 1960's, but I really think the standard in the last 30 years was better than in the 1880's.

bandabou
Feb 9th, 2004, 05:53 PM
Actually, Martina didn't have the toughest competition. She had Evert, a dyed-in-the-wool baseliner, and no really great serve-and-volley competition during her years at the top in the mid-80s. Margaret Court had Maria Bueno, Billie Jean King, Evonne Goolagong and Virginia Wade, all of whom were much more serious competition on a grass court (and 3 of the 4 majors were on grass then) than Chris Evert.

But then again that was much much tougher than anything Steffi had to face after Hamburg ī93, I guess huh?!

ASV, Gabby, Conchita?! Is that much tougher than facing Evert?! Somehow I donīt think so.

alfajeffster
Feb 9th, 2004, 06:00 PM
But then again that was much much tougher than anything Steffi had to face after Hamburg ī93, I guess huh?!

ASV, Gabby, Conchita?! Is that much tougher than facing Evert?! Somehow I donīt think so.
You're losing me again...:confused: Serve-and-volley tennis beats baseline tennis on a grass court, despite the paddle slap shot version today's women have been bastardized into playing.

raquel
Feb 9th, 2004, 06:04 PM
But then again that was much much tougher than anything Steffi had to face after Hamburg ī93, I guess huh?!

ASV, Gabby, Conchita?! Is that much tougher than facing Evert?! Somehow I donīt think so.From the stabbing to the French in 1995, Steffi only led ASV 5-4. Steffi then won their last 4 meetings, but one was 7-5 in the 3rd and another was 10-8. I think ASV was a tougher rival for Steffi than many think for the 2 years after the stabbing at least. Gaby and Conchita were not much competition for Steffi though from 1993.

DA FOREHAND
Feb 9th, 2004, 06:19 PM
You can only play/beat the compettion put before you. I have read no arguements that dimish the greatness of Steffi Graf.


Doubles titles don't impress me, tennis is an individual sport, winning the doubles crown is simply gravy. As good as Kournikova/Natasha, are /were in doulbes they have done precious little when left to fend for themselves.

bandabou
Feb 9th, 2004, 06:19 PM
You're losing me again...:confused: Serve-and-volley tennis beats baseline tennis on a grass court, despite the paddle slap shot version today's women have been bastardized into playing.

As long as you keep it real....so Court or Martina N at their best( serve-and-volleyer, if I recall correctly) beat Steffi( not much serve-and-volleying going on there) on grass, right?!

DA FOREHAND
Feb 9th, 2004, 06:23 PM
As long as you keep it real....so Court or Martina N at their best( serve-and-volleyer, if I recall correctly) beat Steffi( not much serve-and-volleying going on there) on grass, right?!


I'd have to disagree :wavey:

alfajeffster
Feb 9th, 2004, 06:25 PM
As long as you keep it real....so Court or Martina N at their best( serve-and-volleyer, if I recall correctly) beat Steffi( not much serve-and-volleying going on there) on grass, right?!
Yes, with all three playing with a standard size frame, I would have to admit this possibility. Steffi Graf served-and-volleyed alot more than either of the Williams sisters, and she was a better volleyer, I might add.

bandabou
Feb 9th, 2004, 06:35 PM
Yes, with all three playing with a standard size frame, I would have to admit this possibility. Steffi Graf served-and-volleyed alot more than either of the Williams sisters, and she was a better volleyer, I might add.

At least youīre keeping it real! :yeah:

The thing about the Williamses, wasnīt part of the question....the question was: serve and volleyer Court or Nav at their best against Graf who wins?!

And you admitted it: Graf would have been in a serious disadvantage.

alfajeffster
Feb 9th, 2004, 06:39 PM
At least youīre keeping it real! :yeah:

The thing about the Williamses, wasnīt part of the question....the question was: serve and volleyer Court or Nav at their best against Graf who wins?!

And you admitted it: Graf would have been in a serious disadvantage.
Actually, we started out talking about the high caliber of serve-and-volley players Court had versus anything Martina had to deal with. You brought in Steffi for whatever reason, so the Williams sisters at that point became fair game, Mr. Bandabou! One of the best quotes from the mouth of Martina Navratilova was when she said "Billie Jean King knew exactly what to do to pick my game apart, and she did it." This is exactly what we were talking about originally.

DA FOREHAND
Feb 9th, 2004, 06:41 PM
Yes, with all three playing with a standard size frame, I would have to admit this possibility. Steffi Graf served-and-volleyed alot more than either of the Williams sisters, and she was a better volleyer, I might add.

Steffi played w/the Dunlop 200G which is what 85sq inches. I still have one today, and pull it out anytime my strokes go astray.

alfajeffster
Feb 9th, 2004, 06:47 PM
Steffi played w/the Dunlop 200G which is what 85sq inches. I still have one today, and pull it out anytime my strokes go astray.
I still have a 200G in my racquet bag. It's a mid-size frame. The standard size frame is about 65sq inches. The difference is measurable.

DA FOREHAND
Feb 9th, 2004, 06:49 PM
I've seen footage of Steffi playing w/a wooden racquet, so it would'n't be foriegn to her.

bandabou
Feb 9th, 2004, 07:05 PM
Actually, we started out talking about the high caliber of serve-and-volley players Court had versus anything Martina had to deal with. You brought in Steffi for whatever reason, so the Williams sisters at that point became fair game, Mr. Bandabou! One of the best quotes from the mouth of Martina Navratilova was when she said "Billie Jean King knew exactly what to do to pick my game apart, and she did it." This is exactly what we were talking about originally.

:lol: Maybe theyīd lose, maybe not.....Havenīt seen them play with wooden rackets, so canīt say much about that. But it doesnīt matter. At least you HAD to acknowledge that Steffiīd lose too.

alfajeffster
Feb 9th, 2004, 07:09 PM
:lol: Maybe theyīd lose, maybe not.....Havenīt seen them play with wooden rackets, so canīt say much about that. But it doesnīt matter. At least you HAD to acknowledge that Steffiīd lose too.
Yes, I admit that Steffi would have had trouble with Navratilova or Court on grass at their best with standard racquets in everyone's hands. She also might have beaten both of them. We'll never know. We can only surmise and profer our opinions. Speaking of opinions, I don't think the Williams sisters could have won a major with standard size racquets- NO, I DIDN'T GO THERE!:lol:

bandabou
Feb 9th, 2004, 07:13 PM
Yes, I admit that Steffi would have had trouble with Navratilova or Court on grass at their best with standard racquets in everyone's hands. She also might have beaten both of them. We'll never know. We can only surmise and profer our opinions. Speaking of opinions, I don't think the Williams sisters could have won a major with standard size racquets- NO, I DIDN'T GO THERE!:lol:

Maybe...or maybe not. Donīt know what makes you soooo certain/sure about that one.

Seeing the list of players who won with wood, donīt see any reason either Williams wouldnīt have been successful with wood.

Brαm
Feb 9th, 2004, 07:17 PM
06: 12 - 08 - 10 (30) 1966-1975 Billie Jean King


I've just read on a website that she had 39 slam titles :confused:

DA FOREHAND
Feb 9th, 2004, 07:28 PM
I have no reason to believe the players of today having grown training w/wood, would greatly diminish thier accomplishments.

Jeffster what size racquet do you play w/on a reg. basis.. Mine is 95sq in., but I'd still take my chances against you 200g to 200g.

QUEENLINDSAY
Feb 9th, 2004, 07:30 PM
The greatest player of all time!!!!!

MARTINA NAVRATILOVA!!!!!!!
She is not even my fave!!

DA FOREHAND
Feb 9th, 2004, 07:31 PM
The "greatest" don't duck the competittion.

alfajeffster
Feb 9th, 2004, 07:32 PM
I have no reason to believe the players of today having grown training w/wood, would greatly diminish thier accomplishments.

Jeffster what size racquet do you play w/on a reg. basis.. Mine is 95sq in., but I'd still take my chances against you 200g to 200g.
I play with a Wilson ProStaff that's probably the same size. Be careful what you wish for- you've never seen me play!

QUEENLINDSAY
Feb 9th, 2004, 07:34 PM
why dont u just all enter the ATP or WTA!!!!!!!
Just let ur raquet do the talking!!!!!!

Andy T
Feb 9th, 2004, 07:39 PM
In Navratilova's years of dominance, 2/4 slams were played on grass, Alfa, not three as in Court's era. Evert was a three-time winner on the US cement courts that replaced the green clay of 75-77 and Navratilova beat her to win in 83/84 and Graf 85/6/7. On grass, in Grand Slams she beat Goolagong (who won as many slams as Bueno), Evert, Court (at 32 yrs old), King (36), Mandlikova (who won more slams than Hard) and, of course, Graf herself.

alfajeffster
Feb 9th, 2004, 07:46 PM
In Navratilova's years of dominance, 2/4 slams were played on grass, Alfa, not three as in Court's era. Evert was a three-time winner on the US cement courts that replaced the green clay of 75-77 and Navratilova beat her to win in 83/84 and Graf 85/6/7. On grass, in Grand Slams she beat Goolagong (who won as many slams as Bueno), Evert, Court (at 32 yrs old), King (36), Mandlikova (who won more slams than Hard) and, of course, Graf herself.
This only proves my original point- Navratilova didn't have any world-class serve-and-volley players to challenge her during her dominant years. The field of great players was much greater in 1973 than it was in 1983. By the time Martina began dominating, Billie Jean King and Virginia Wade were way past their prime, Goolagong was out of the picture, and Mandlikova, well, we won't go there except to say I thought it fitting that she started coaching Jana Novotna- talk about the blind leading the blind!:lol:

bandabou
Feb 9th, 2004, 07:53 PM
This only proves my original point- Navratilova didn't have any world-class serve-and-volley players to challenge her during her dominant years. The field of great players was much greater in 1973 than it was in 1983. By the time Martina began dominating, Billie Jean King and Virginia Wade were way past their prime, Goolagong was out of the picture, and Mandlikova, well, we won't go there except to say I thought it fitting that she started coaching Jana Novotna- talk about the blind leading the blind!:lol:

Still donīt get what you wanna say with that?! Unless your fav has become Court, it doesnīt make any sense...because wasnīt Martina N the last truely great serve-and-volleyer?!

So then all the Wimbledons after say like 1990, donīt hold value?!

vogus
Feb 9th, 2004, 08:17 PM
it's tougher to win a lot of GS titles today than it used to be. So Margret Court's, BJK's, Graf's and Navvy's titles counts are inflated compared to the title counts of today's players.

Pamela Shriver
Feb 9th, 2004, 08:24 PM
unless they have a lot of friends on the board of the Tennis Hall of Fame and/or are real life bondgirls ;)
Don't know what you mean....After all I have no friends....

You confound classification Pam. Your contribution to tennis cannot be measured in mere games, sets and matches. We all know that!

Jeepers AndyT you're always so right. I'm in my own Giraffesque Category of Greatness. Only Helena Sukova comes close. And she cheats coz she wears heels.

Pammy dear. This is a thread about Slam singles titles-NOT your hair dear.
Ah, I read it as:
A player's Hairistry Greatness is measured in slamming pony tails

Brαm
Feb 9th, 2004, 08:28 PM
it's tougher to win a lot of GS titles today than it used to be. So Margret Court's, BJK's, Graf's and Navvy's titles counts are inflated compared to the title counts of today's players.
What makes you think that? :confused:

hingis-seles
Feb 9th, 2004, 08:38 PM
If tennis had been played with wooden racquets, Martina Hingis would have dominated BIG-TIME!

Andy T
Feb 9th, 2004, 08:42 PM
Pam hairstorically, you are the greatest EVER!

alfajeffster
Feb 9th, 2004, 08:49 PM
If tennis had been played with wooden racquets, Martina Hingis would have dominated BIG-TIME!
Everyone except Graf, naturally.

Pamela Shriver
Feb 9th, 2004, 08:49 PM
Pam hairstorically, you are the greatest EVER!
True.

Pamela's hair is legendary, and an inspiration to many

MisterQ
Feb 9th, 2004, 08:53 PM
Thanks for the list. It's interesting and refreshing to see the non-open era greats thrown in there with the rest.


18: 06 - 00 - 00 (06) 1908-1908 Maud Barger-Wallach

Wow, that's impressive. 6 GS singles titles in one year! ;)

alfajeffster
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:21 PM
Pam hairstorically, you are the greatest EVER!
I guess what I dislike the most about Martina is that she's not a natural blonde!:lol:

Pamela Shriver
Feb 9th, 2004, 10:05 PM
I guess what I dislike the most about Martina is that she's not a natural blonde!:lol:
Yeah, she'd never listen to me with hair advice. Thats why I'm regarded as such a style guru and she's remembered for...winning the odd match here and there...

alfajeffster
Feb 9th, 2004, 10:27 PM
Yeah, she'd never listen to me with hair advice. Thats why I'm regarded as such a style guru and she's remembered for...winning the odd match here and there...
Still waiting for someone to present YOU with a new Harley, aren't you Pammy?

Andy T
Feb 9th, 2004, 10:33 PM
Yeah, she'd never listen to me with hair advice. Thats why I'm regarded as such a style guru and she's remembered for...winning the odd match here and there...

Alfajeffster you're a wicked superficial bitch and I hate you! ;) If Steffi had grown up in a poor village ruled by the evil communist empire been pumped full of steroids while she was still in the womb and had then suffered press-hounding and discriination because of her sexuality (plus lived all her life in the knowledge that she's going to hell when she dies 'cos God (whatever his/her religion) hates dykes and queens, she'd have had flat lifeless hair which "evolved" from a pre-Pamfro perm in the mid seventies through lank brown, to lank paroxide, to punk and then classic lesbian basin-cut instead of those golden brown locks.

Have a heart!

Pam, thanks for trying!
:kiss:

alfajeffster
Feb 9th, 2004, 10:37 PM
Alfajeffster you're a wicked superficial bitch and I hate you! ;) If Steffi had grown up in a poor village ruled by the evil communist empire been pumped full of steroids while she was still in the womb and had then suffered press-hounding and discriination because of her sexuality (plus lived all her life in the knowledge that she's going to hell when she dies 'cos God (whatever his/her religion) hates dykes and queens, she'd have had flat lifeless hair which "evolved" from a pre-Pamfro perm in the mid seventies through lank brown, to lank paroxide, to punk and then classic lesbian basin-cut instead of those golden brown locks.

Have a heart!

Pam, thanks for trying!
:kiss:
You forgot to mention the male pattern baldness Martina's starting to experience!:lol:

Volcana
Feb 9th, 2004, 10:41 PM
Why don't you have Capriati on your list?

If you don't like her, at least make her "tied" with Henin-Hardenne.

:)
I apologize profusely to all Capriati fans. That was just an oversight, she clearly belongs. I correct that right now.

Volcana
Feb 9th, 2004, 10:47 PM
Arantxa won 4 mixed GS in her career:
2000 - US Open (w/Palmer)
1993 - Australian Open (w/Woodbridge)
1992 - Roland Garros (w/Woodbridge)
1990 - Roland Garros (w/Lozano)

Correction made. Thanks.

Volcana
Feb 9th, 2004, 10:51 PM
U forgot Elizabeth Ryan too, 19 Wimbledon titles :worship: (and died on the day Billie Jean broke her record)Whoa. NO wonder BJK can be a bitch to work with. Haunted by GS tennis spirit.

How many singles titles did Ryan win. If it was less than three, that's why she's not here. I'll check tho.

Volcana
Feb 9th, 2004, 11:03 PM
Andy T - You are correct about both errors in the text and various championships being closed or not so traveled to. But again, players in that era faced challenges that today's player can't even dream of. Imagine trying to make a career of tennis in the USA 50's or 60's inthe states when a woman couldn't even open a bank account without a male co-signer. All eras are different.

How good would Martina Navratilova have been if she'd had to hide her sexuality her whole life?

Before WWII, the Williams sisters would have won NO USOpen titles, since they wouldn't have been allowed to play.

And with modern brakes and the safety features on today's cars, maybe Maureen Connolly's career wouldn't have been completely ended.

Volcana
Feb 9th, 2004, 11:16 PM
it's tougher to win a lot of GS titles today than it used to be. So Margret Court's, BJK's, Graf's and Navvy's titles counts are inflated compared to the title counts of today's players.
Why?

It's easier flying from Europe to America than it is to spend a couple weeks traveling by ship.

Today's racket's are WAY more forgiving than earlier models.

Many societies today celebrate female athlete's. In the old days, they were called 'unnatural'.

Even BEING a woman athlete was harder in the old days.

Volcana
Feb 9th, 2004, 11:18 PM
And generally, thanks to everyone who helped me get this thread more accurate.

Sam L
Feb 9th, 2004, 11:19 PM
Well Helen Wills only started to play tennis like when she was 13. Within a few years she dominated the tennis world. I think that's talent.

She also would've gone to Australia if there was better transport. She also has a strong argument for longevity. She's one of only 3 players to have won slams as a teen, 20's, and 30's.

Evert and Court are the only other ones.

Wills also had a gap of 15 years between her first and last slam, the largest gap for anyone. Between those years she only played 22 slams and won 19 and reached the final in the other 3.

She hit her forehands pretty hard, but her backhand was apparently better and was one of few women who hit it with topspin.

Keep in mind also that in the late 20's, Don Budge (yes, the first man to ever win the Grand slam) used to go to Berkeley as a teenager to watch Helen Wills practise.

Did Pete Sampras ever watch Navratilova or Court practise when he was a teen? Nope.

arcus
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:26 AM
The quality of competition should be considered when decisions about whose greatest are on the table. evert and navratilova couldnt have had it tougher in that respect, and not just form each other. Graf got away a bit easy, although not her fault of course.

remember that top players used not play the 4 slams. In recent eras the top players never went to aus. And there was a time when the French wasnt a top attraction.

SO comparing across eras is tough.

Better to revere greats across all generations

btw, when I think about whose a great player, I also think about what they did for womens tennis, what they gave back to the game. There are big differences amouing the players with big slam tallys.

hewittrok
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:38 AM
Their is more competition now then when Margret was winning.

bello
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:43 AM
Yes well Steffi is very high on the list, she has Monica's misfortunes to thank for that.

Otherwise Monica would definately be in that top 10, and unfortunately Steffi wouldnt, as she wouldnt have had the opportunity to win so many slams or regain her no. 1 rranking.

But i better not start that argument...

just saddens me that Monica should be in that position!! :(

Pamela Shriver
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:47 AM
Pam, thanks for trying!
:kiss:
No probs, anything for a genuine PamFan. You're so rare I gotta keep you safe...

hewittrok
Feb 10th, 2004, 12:49 AM
Yes well Steffi is very high on the list, she has Monica's misfortunes to thank for that.

Otherwise Monica would definately be in that top 10, and unfortunately Steffi wouldnt, as she wouldnt have had the opportunity to win so many slams or regain her no. 1 rranking.

But i better not start that argument...

just saddens me that Monica should be in that position!! :(Its not all Steffi fault Monica took 2 years off, so some its her fault too.

fammmmedspin
Feb 10th, 2004, 01:28 AM
Historical greatness is a subjective concept anyway so you might as well count GS won. I really doubt though if it is very useful to compare players who won very few matches against very limited opposition to Open Era GS champs. On that logic you could probably find umpteen monarchs who won their unnoficial national tennis championships year in and year out against similar opposition. History wil probably note that there were some really great names in the first half of the 20c who established the game. They will note key players with stories like Connally, Gibson and Bueno. They will then look at Open era singles GS totals and note that 4 people (so far) have very special records. They will note that Monica might belong with them. Then I suspect they will stop looking at the GS winners list at all and move to looking at weeks at number 1 - where they will note who had longevity and who had short term success.

Sam L
Feb 10th, 2004, 01:55 AM
Their is more competition now then when Margret was winning.
Codswallop!

There's nothing to suggest that. Serena and Justine have won the last 8 slams beating the same two players respectively. These situations never occurred in Margaret's era. She actually beat different players in her slam finals.

Heck, and I'm not even a Margaret fan, but if you think Marge had no competition, gee, I wonder what you'd think about Wills/Lenglen etc...

tennisvideos
Feb 10th, 2004, 03:20 AM
Their is more competition now then when Margret was winning.What a joke. I almost laughed.... almost.

I doubt that you have ever heard of:
* Darlene Hard (multiple GS winner)
* Maria Bueno (3 times Wimbledon Singles Champ)
* Billie-Jean King (Legend)
* Nancy Richey (multiple GS winner)
* Anne Jones (Wimbledon & French Champ)
* Virginia Wade (multiple GS Champ)
* Evonne Goolagong (Twice Wimbledon Champ & multiple GS titles)
* Lesley Turner (Twice French Champ)
as well as a great supporting cast including Rosie Casals, Francoise Durr, Kerry Reid, Betty Stove, Christine Truman, Judy Tegart, Helga Masthoff, Virginia Ruzici, Jan Lehane, to name just a few.
and then after coming back from having children she then faced:
* Chris Evert (Legend)
* Martina Navratilova (Legend)

Personally, I agree with Alfajester, that the early 70s (esp 1973) had the greatest depth at the top of the game (top 10) in the history of womens tennis.

disposablehero
Feb 10th, 2004, 04:21 AM
Volcana, your two tiebreak criteria are good, objective ones. But as you said, that does underrate the doubles, and I do think there are so many things you have to factor in after you look at the numbers. Here is my top 36 of all time. (was 35 before Henin started winning Slams).

1. Martina Navratilova
2. Margaret Court
3. Steffi Graf
4. Chris Evert
5. Helen Wills Moody
6. Billie Jean King
7. Monica Seles
8. Suzanne Lenglen
9. Maureen Connolly
10. Evonne Goolagong
11. Alice Marble
12. Molla Bjurstedt Mallory
13. Maria Bueno
14. Serena Williams
15. Martina Hingis
16. Althea Gibson
17. Doris Hart
18. Helen Jacobs
19. Pauline Betz
20. Venus Williams
21. Lottie Dod
22. Louise Brough
23. Hana Mandlikova
24. Dorothea Lambert Chambers
25. Aranxta Sanchez Vicario
26. Lindsay Davenport
27. Blanche Bingley Hillyard
28. Tracy Austin
29. Virginia Wade
30. Margeret Osborne DuPont
31. Justine Henin
32. Ann Haydon Jones
33. Charlotte Cooper Sterry
34. Jennifer Capriati
35. Nancye Wynne Bolton
36. Darlene Hard