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View Full Version : How come I'm NOT hearing 'watching the same two slam finalist will get boring'?


Volcana
Feb 8th, 2004, 01:53 PM
Certainly we had started to hear that after three Williams-Williams finals. If those comments were sincere, how come we aren't hearing the same things now? It HAS been three finals of the last four with the same players.

SJW
Feb 8th, 2004, 01:54 PM
it's been said by numerous posters on this board, and surprisingly, many aren't williams fans

LindsayRulez
Feb 8th, 2004, 01:54 PM
I'll say it: no more Belgian finals!

I mean, it'd be different if Kim would have won one of them, but if/when they meet again in the finals, we know who's gonna win...

The Crow
Feb 8th, 2004, 01:54 PM
Have you been on this board for the last couple of months?

MarcusRock
Feb 8th, 2004, 02:04 PM
I may be wrong but maybe Volcana means the tennis community itself and not just WTAworld. I'm talking about the Pams, Mary Joes and Cliffords of the tennis world, etc. not to mention other players. We're not hearing that Kim and Justine are "boring for tennis" or "finally someone different" etc. Volcana can come back and clarify though.

Greenout
Feb 8th, 2004, 02:07 PM
Certainly we had started to hear that after three Williams-Williams finals. If those comments were sincere, how come we aren't hearing the same things now? It HAS been three finals of the last four with the same players.


I hate admit it; doesn't bother me because I dig
NRR-DEN. Ok..it does feel kind of odd that she's not getting
a chance to kick AWOL ass; but the way I look at is the
outcome would still be the same. The young LIONESS would
win; so it's no sweat off my back. ;) The longer people stay
off the tour, the more difficult it is to regain dominance and
momentum. I think the days of coasting back in the 1990's
are gone forever. The level of play does improve; it's just
that bigger players/stars rarely want to admit that lesser
opponents have improved.

I do have to feel for everybody missing their favorites regardless
if their winning or not.

Julian
Feb 8th, 2004, 02:08 PM
Surprisingly the 2003 U.S. Open final and the 2004 AO final has been the first GS finals that I havent watched in the past 4 years. I dont know its just that sort of inside me I know that Justine will come out on top as Kim has sort of a mental block against her and lately tennis has been sort of blah without ALL the main stars competing...

I really did enjoy the Williams' finals at the AO and Wimbledon last year. :) And yup I am no Williams' fan.

babolat-blast
Feb 8th, 2004, 02:09 PM
Me, as a Belgian, agrees that most Belgian finals were boring, except for the last one in the Australian Open. I also think it's more fun to see Clijsters or Henin playing against Davenport, a Willams sister, Capriati,... But since the Aus Open final, hopefully there might be a change and Belgian finals will become fun to watch. Let's wait and see, cause at the moment I think we'll only get more Belgian finals, since resistance is very weak at the moment...

sartrista7
Feb 8th, 2004, 02:10 PM
We haven't had a decent Slam final for two years now... both the Belgians and the Williams sisters are wearing extremely thin. And I say this as a fan of Justine and Venus.

SJW
Feb 8th, 2004, 02:12 PM
i've enjoyed the ones that i've watched since the Williams/Belgians took over

the ones i didn't watch were FO and USO 03

not the desired result a couple of weeks ago...but i got into it :)

Greenout
Feb 8th, 2004, 02:15 PM
If you don't love Kimmy or Justine...I bet it must suck lemons!

great smash
Feb 8th, 2004, 02:19 PM
As far as I'm concerned I'd rather have a mixed final too.

But still the reason I prefer an all Belgian over an all Williams final, apart from myself being Belgian of course, is the fact that with the Williams finals, however much you may say both girls are different, the trophy goes to the same 'houshold' however will win the final

-Sonic-
Feb 8th, 2004, 02:20 PM
I've heard it many many times.
Actually, I've heard that it IS boring, not that it will be.

wongqks
Feb 8th, 2004, 02:26 PM
I heard it a lot of times, when Williams dominate it is boring, when belgian dominate it is boring, it is just the truth, people always want things to be unpredictable, it is nothing personal.

Also, when your fav is being criticised, it alays seems like the world is against them, but if some player who you do not like is criticsed, it seems like they are not getting their fair share of criticisms

Julian
Feb 8th, 2004, 02:26 PM
I was hoping to see this years AO but was out of town but with the 3 setter result hopefully we WILL see a change. :)

E. Blackadder
Feb 8th, 2004, 02:30 PM
i'm Belgian and I find it quite boring now :(

Volcana
Feb 8th, 2004, 02:30 PM
I may be wrong but maybe Volcana means the tennis community itself and not just WTAworld. I'm talking about the Pams, Mary Joes and Cliffords of the tennis world, etc. not to mention other players. We're not hearing that Kim and Justine are "boring for tennis" or "finally someone different" etc. Volcana can come back and clarify though.
MarcusRock is correct about my intentions. Sure that's been said onthe board here, but so much of that just the usual vicious infighting I don't take it seriously. It's like all the 'Justine cheats' stuff. I ignore it because I view it all as a kind of 'anything that was okay to say about Venus or Serena, no matter how unfair, is okay to say about anybody'. I don't think anyone sincerely believe Justine uses steroids, but folks said that about the WIlliams sisters, so some people think that makes it okay to say about anybody.

But I'm not hearing that from the players or the commentators. Certainly Amelie Mauresmo should have made herself heard on the subject by now. I seem to recall justine's coach had someting to say as well. (Of course, expecting her coach to comment NOW would be unrealistic. But I do notice neither Richard nor Orecene Williams sunk to that level.)

I expect that nonsense here. But if Pam, Cliff, Mary Jo, Patrick McEnroe, Mal Washington et al are going to cast themselves as fairminded and objective (ha), we should be hearing the same things form them by now.

Volcana
Feb 8th, 2004, 02:33 PM
Just a note. I've enjoyed the Justine-Kim finals, except Kim usually cracks, rather than forcing Justine to play extraordinary tennis. The differ from the Venus-Serena finals in that there fewer incredibly spectacular points but more food ones. Still it is kind of odd that the same players could contest EIGHT STRAIGHT slam finals, and yet each player only faces one other opponent.

Greenout
Feb 8th, 2004, 02:37 PM
I think we should just let the neutrals talk it out. If you like the
Sisters...off course you dislike the ABF(All Belgian Finals), and
the same goes if your into Kimmy and Justine- naturally you would
be entertained by either of these two just standing on court spinning
dishes on Center court. ;)

SJW
Feb 8th, 2004, 02:38 PM
I think we should just let the neutrals talk it out. If you like the
Sisters...off course you dislike the ABF(All Belgian Finals), and
the same goes if your into Kimmy and Justine- naturally you would
be entertained by either of these two just standing on court spinning
dishes on Center court. ;)
and me?

cheesestix
Feb 8th, 2004, 02:39 PM
At least this past AO final was not boring.

I don't think last year's AO final was boring either. That was probably the best Venus/Serena final ever. The rest were boring to me. The last 2 Wimbledon finals have been BORING like none other. Two years ago, Venus acts like she doesn't want to be there, and last year Serena gives a few games to Venus so it's not such a blowout. Man, those were hard to watch.

If you think it's wrong for people to say "boring" about all-Williams finals, then why are you whining about people not saying "boring" about all-Belgian finals? Maybe you should be wanted none of the finals to be called "boring" and abandon this "tit for tat" attitude? After this past AO, though, I really don't see how you can ask this question.

Dawn Marie
Feb 8th, 2004, 02:40 PM
The reason why Momo and Pammy and MJ are quiet is because they are all three ignorant. Oh and gaby, they are all racist bigots just like those people who bitched and moaned but have been QUIET with the Belgian match-up.



Waiting for the excuse * they are not sisters* tennis is ball striking.. dolts. Justine is a power player.. just ask KIM.

Greenout
Feb 8th, 2004, 02:54 PM
The reason some people dislike the ABF is that they don't know enough
about both players to understand that they are like night and day.
Playing styles, life styles, opinions..nothing is the same about them.
The problem with the actual match is that as many people have said
before Kim hasn't changed her game. Justine read every ball coming
over. I also think that was the problem between LD -vs- Justine.
LD did what she usually does , and Justine just knew almost by
force of habit what to do against LD.

Funny; but I find alot of the media thrashing the ABF's because they
obviously were getting alot of crap out of their system for holding
back any negative commentary about the AWF (All Williams Final);
in fear of being branded racists.

Poor Justine. She's getting alot of shit thrown her way by
journalists, commentators simply because she's winning. Could it
be that she's a great strategist and able to read everyone's game now?
In her match against LD...she read practically every serve coming her
way. Same as Kimmy's match.

We need a Venus -vs Justine final. I don't neither would know what to
expect. This could be the most interesting final if it came to life.

SJW
Feb 8th, 2004, 02:58 PM
oh PLEASE Greenout

that is total BS. the media never held back over their comments on Venus and Serena. and have you ever thought the trashing of all belgian finals was because they, like the sisters, have failed to represent on more than one occasion? :confused:

this time, your bias towards Justine is really coming out

Greenout
Feb 8th, 2004, 03:03 PM
oh PLEASE Greenout

that is total BS. the media never held back over their comments on Venus and Serena. and have you ever thought the trashing of all belgian finals was because they, like the sisters, have failed to represent on more than one occasion? :confused:

this time, your bias towards Justine is really coming out


I think it's time for me to :tape: my big fat mouth. Cheerio. :)

gentenaire
Feb 8th, 2004, 03:08 PM
maybe because the reason people thought Williams finals were boring wasn't because it was between the same finalists, but between two sisters? It just doesn't seem like much of a rivalry when the two are so closely related.

That said, I've said many times that while I was thrilled at the first all Belgian final, I have since gotten bored with them too.

SJW
Feb 8th, 2004, 03:11 PM
right? i mean the first Williams final (GS) i was over the moon. basically cuz i had a little bet with someone before the USO that it would be the first ;) but since, it doesn't hold the same feeling. i'm happy that my two faves get to the final, but i couldn't care less about the result and who wins once they both get there.

Rocketta
Feb 8th, 2004, 03:15 PM
Well actually the media started asking were the Williams bad for tennis at their first French meeting in the run of slams so that was after two slams....

Pam and Mary Jo aren't saying anything because they are too busy being close personal friends with Kimmy and hoping and praying she finally breaks through and wins a slam, imho...

It's a travesty and if the Williams starts dominating again we will see what they say..I doubt it will be the same since they have shown their true colors now but its always possible for them to start talking out their asses again..:shrug:

Volcana
Feb 8th, 2004, 03:15 PM
If Venus, Serena, Justine and Kim all happen to make the RG semis, should they just shuffle them so Williams plays WIlliams and Belgian plays Belgian? It's toitally unfair to the #2 seed, but it's better for fans, I think. Maybe slip each of them $100,000 under the table to accept this gross injustice? Serena and Justine have got to wonder if they can still beat anyone else in a GS final.

Rocketta - It's hardly a 'travesty', just annoying. Venus and Serena are both successfully pursuing completely secondary careers. They aren't being hurt by this.

Greenout
Feb 8th, 2004, 03:19 PM
I think the real problem is that alot of time the QF's or semi's turn out
to be more exciting than the finals. It's all so draining and does often
times become anti climatic. I guess the last really exciting final
was Hingis -vs- Capriati at the AO 2002. It really could have gone
either way.

SJW
Feb 8th, 2004, 03:19 PM
don't go fixing the draw...i don't think that is the answer.

just let it flow naturally...the two players in the final will most likely be the best two players in the tournament

Greenout
Feb 8th, 2004, 03:21 PM
Ever seen LD -vs- Steffi WIMBLEDON 1999?. That was boring.
What about LD -vs- Hingis USO 1998? that was boring too. I guess
it has to be a 3 setter and very competitive to be an exciting final
just as much as who's in it.

Rocketta
Feb 8th, 2004, 03:24 PM
Rocketta - It's hardly a 'travesty', just annoying. Venus and Serena are both successfully pursuing completely secondary careers. They aren't being hurt by this.
No I think its a travesty that the media could be so flagrantly biased over something that they shouldn't be. I'm talking about asking every other player in their press conferences about Williamsx2 just begging for negative comments and stir up controversy. They do not do that to Justine or Kim? That's a travesty in my book. Has nothing to do with whether I think Venus or Serena care. I care. :hehehe:

Bezz
Feb 8th, 2004, 03:24 PM
I think the big difference is that kim and jsutine are not sisters, they probably dont like each other very much deep down (but put on a show for the belgian press);) . Unlike the williams, not everyone (outside of belgium :tape: ) supports both they like one or the other, so even though they are in the finals its not as bad as a williams final cos at least there are 2 camps cheering and not just one big one. MOST who like the williams have a fave but are still happy if the other one wins, unlike ppl who support the belgians who want one or the other. When yu have 2 people in a final and yu dont care who wins then it cretes a differnt storey to having a final that clearly has differnt support for both players.

Andrew.
Feb 8th, 2004, 03:25 PM
I think that it was very boring when Justine was bitch slapping Kim in the major finals 6-0 6-4 and 7-5 6-1. As a Justine fan I was even beginning to find it boring. But I found the last one very entertaining.

skanky~skanketta
Feb 8th, 2004, 03:41 PM
as a big fan of BOTH kim and justine, i have to say that i'm sick of it.i was really excited about the first one, but i was semi-dissapointed with the scoreline. i was hoping kim would win the second(to equalize) but she blew it(AGAIN!in terms of score) the AO came around and i KNEW justine would win.

same thing with the sisters. i was so pissed venus lost wimby 03 and AO 03 too. but at least the matches were more competitive...and wimby, u didnt know who was gonna win.

another problem is that when 2 of my faves make the final, and i am cheering on to win and she loses, i can always take consolation in the fact that another fave won. that totally takes away the thrill.

i would LOVE to see Justine/kim/venus/serena VS ANYONE ELSE WHO CAN CHALLENGE THEM in the next GS final. that way, i can sit and feel nervous about whether they can win or not. i like that feeling of nervousness.

SJW
Feb 8th, 2004, 03:48 PM
i'm not gonna go wishing for only 1 of those four to make the slam final, because let's face it, they are wayyyyyyyy above the rest. the quality isn't gonna be better with only one of them in the final, in fact i'm sure they would thrash anybody else

but out of the possible matchups, i don't really wanna see any Williams/Belgian. maybe Kim vs Serena...but none of the others appeal to me. Justine vs Venus should...but it still doesn't

cheesestix
Feb 8th, 2004, 04:08 PM
"same thing with the sisters. i was so pissed venus lost wimby 03 and AO 03 too. but at least the matches were more competitive...and wimby, u didnt know who was gonna win."

Wimbledon 2003 final was boring and totally predictable. Venus was "injured". Early in the match, it was obvious that Serena would win the match. It was just a question of "how easily". To make matters worse, IMO, Serena let up a little on Venus and "gave" her a few service games. Even the commentators thought so. How do you serve so weakly and still win your service games against Serena Williams? Had that been any other player serving those cream puff serves, Serena would have hit every one back for a winner, IMO.

AO 2003 was actually exciting. I believe they were even cursing at each other, under their breath, in that match. Good competition.

Bezz
Feb 8th, 2004, 04:13 PM
"Wimbledon 2003 final was boring and totally predictable. Venus was "injured". Early in the match, it was obvious that Serena would win the match. It was just a question of "how easily". To make matters worse, IMO, Serena let up a little on Venus and "gave" her a few service games. Even the commentators thought so. How do you serve so weakly and still win your service games against Serena Williams? Had that been any other player serving those cream puff serves, Serena would have hit every one back for a winner, IMO.

.
I agree the wimby final was a bit of a show, serena would have killed any other opponent as injured as venus was that day. The AO final however was a good competitive match :)

Kart
Feb 8th, 2004, 04:22 PM
I'm sure you'll start hearing it from everybody if it becomes evident that it's going to be a regular occurrence and no one can stop them.

After all, a lot of people expect there to be a difference in who appears in finals once Serena and Venus are back at full strength.

Maybe they're clinging to that hope - after all this is slightly different from 2002 - Williams sisters were beating everybody including Belgians. The reverse is not strictly true.

bandabou
Feb 8th, 2004, 04:36 PM
Good point, Kart...maybe people still have the feeling that the Belgian-domination are still kinda of by default...due to the absence of the Williamses.

I think that once the sisters come-back at full strength weīre gonna have more different slam finalists.

starr
Feb 8th, 2004, 04:47 PM
I frankly have never heard much from the tennis commentators saying that grand slam finals between Serena and Venus were boring. Perhaps they have. It seems to me like these finals get a lot of ballyhoo....... at least in the U.S.

Personally, one of the reasons that these two sisters playing in the finals is rather bland is because there isn't a real rivalry between them. I don't think we will see either Kimmy or Justine jostling with the photographers to take picutres of the other holding a trophy aloft. You get the feeling that neither of these girls quite like the other and aren't happy in anyway that the other won.

On the other hand, watching the Belgians play might get boring because they aren't avoiding one another at non-slam tournaments. So, we are likely to see them playing one another more often than Serena and Venus play.

CJ07
Feb 8th, 2004, 06:15 PM
you know its a good question

the difference between All Williams Final and All Belgian Finals is that when Venus and Serena ignore who is across the net you get some points you can't find anywhere else in women's tennis.

and even when Kim plays well, its usually pretty banal

its just not that exciting

JackFrost
Feb 8th, 2004, 06:42 PM
I think the big difference is that kim and jsutine are not sisters, they probably dont like each other very much deep down (but put on a show for the belgian press);) . Unlike the williams, not everyone (outside of belgium :tape: ) supports both they like one or the other, so even though they are in the finals its not as bad as a williams final cos at least there are 2 camps cheering and not just one big one. MOST who like the williams have a fave but are still happy if the other one wins, unlike ppl who support the belgians who want one or the other. When yu have 2 people in a final and yu dont care who wins then it cretes a differnt storey to having a final that clearly has differnt support for both players.Right. Thats an important point.
Graf - Seles and Evert - Navratilova wasnīt boring, because they are not sisters. With two sisters in a final Iīve always got the feeling, that the result isnīt important, because it stays all in the family.

None the less I wouldnīt mind, if Roland Garros or Wimbledon would have other players in the final. ;)

harloo
Feb 8th, 2004, 07:06 PM
The tennis community finally got what they wanted, and that's anyone besides the Williams in a slam final. There is simply no way to sugar coat it.
Lets be honest, the commentators, and everyone else in the tennis community are praying that the Belgians continue to meet up in finals. Never do you even hear them say that the belgians meeting up in a slam final is bad for tennis like they did Venus and Serena. Well people keep saying that they are sisters and that's the reason for the criticism, but then again neither has Justine and Henin produced great matchups and you have the fact that one keeps winning which IMO is pretty much the same situation with the sisters.

I for one don't care who makes the finals of a slam, because I feel like whomever makes it done so through winning but alot of people need to stop flip flopping on this subject. It's ok for 2 players you love to continue to dominate and meet in slam finals, but if another 2 players do the same thing then tennis is being destroyed.

maryjane
Feb 8th, 2004, 07:35 PM
Certainly we had started to hear that after three Williams-Williams finals. If those comments were sincere, how come we aren't hearing the same things now? It HAS been three finals of the last four with the same players.

well,it depends on the tv u watch...
on the italian one the commentators said right that:
i was used to complain about williams'finals but now i want them back cos i'm getting bored of the belgians' finals!

Sanneriet
Feb 8th, 2004, 10:23 PM
There was an article in USA today about whether the ABF were bad for tennis about two weeks ago. I read it in the actual paper, don't know if there is a link to it on the USA website. Guess what: opinion was divided, some said yes, some said no. Same as with the Williams sisters.

Martian Willow
Feb 8th, 2004, 10:29 PM
...the tennis community...

Is that like 'the black community'?

tennisIlove09
Feb 8th, 2004, 10:31 PM
Clearly the 4 best players in the world are Williams-Williams-Clijsters-Henin Hardenne (in no order ;) ), and yet it appears that the best matches arise when it's Clijsters-Williams (either) and Henin Hardenne-Williams (either).

I think it's sort of sad in women's tennis when the top 4 can't produce great matches every time.

Sanneriet
Feb 8th, 2004, 10:47 PM
Critics waffle on Belgians

By Douglas Robson, special for USA TODAY
MELBOURNE — For the third time in four majors, Justine Henin-Hardenne and Kim Clijsters will vie for a Grand Slam title. With the No. 1 ranking at stake, Saturday's Australian Open championship is a dream matchup for the two Belgians, who are making a habit of meeting on the last day of majors. Whether another all-Belgian final is a plus or a minus for the overall health of the sport is less clear.
http://*********************/_common/_images/clear.gifhttp://*********************/sports/tennis/_photos/2004-01-29-clijsters-inside.jpghttp://*********************/_common/_images/clear.gifAustralian Open finalist Kim Clijsters acknowledges the crowd after her 6-2, 7-6 (7-2) semi-final win over 22nd-ranked Patty Schnyder.http://*********************/_common/_images/clear.gifBy Rick Stevens, AP

Predictably on Thursday, world No. 1 Henin-Hardenne disposed of Colombia's first Grand Slam semifinalist, 32nd-seed Fabiola Zuluaga, 6-2, 6-2. No. 2 seed Clijsters followed her by fighting off a second-set challenge from No. 22 Patty Schnyder of Switzerland to win 6-2, 7-6 (7-2).

"It's good to have the two best players in finals," said ESPN commentator Pam Shriver. "It's exciting and interesting."

But below-par play, withdrawals and injuries at this year's Open — defending champion Serena Williams, two-time titlist Jennifer Capriati and fourth-seeded Amelie Mauresmo of France were among the casualties — has left a sense that the game is thin at the top.

"Women's tennis needs its whole field healthy," Shriver said.

When Serena and Venus Williams were ruling a year ago, critics also complained that their domination hurt the sport. Last year's Australian Open marked a fourth consecutive all-Williams meeting in a Grand Slam final.

Now that the smooth-stroking Henin-Hardenne, 21, and the athletic Clijsters, 20, are blazing a similar trail, the same grumbles are heard. With no merit, some say.

"If you have the same two people in the final, no matter how great those two people are, pretty soon people are questioning if it's good for the sport, whether it was me and Chris (Evert), Serena and Venus or Kim and Justine," said Martina Navratilova, who at 47 is gunning for her 59th overall Grand Slam title in the mixed doubles here. "Hey, they're that much better than everyone else. They deserve to be there."

"Any time you have the No. 1 and No. 2 players in the world competing in a Grand Slam final, I'm happy," chimed in WTA Tour chief executive Larry Scott.

But Henin-Hardenne's coach, Carlos Rodriguez, said that an overly dominating performance by the same two players is detrimental to the game.

"I don't think it's good in the long run for tennis," said Rodriguez, who added that it is particularly worrisome since the next crop of top young players is a long way off. "I think the best WTA tournaments were the first six months (of 2003) when everybody played," he said. "We're missing that."

Henin-Hardenne didn't necessarily agree. She said that Zuluaga and Schnyder appearing in the last four show that the sport has variety.

And she said that having big names in finals builds player-fan identification.

"I think that people like when the favorites are there at the end of the tournament," she said.

American fans have hardly warmed up to the Belgians, despite their success. Selling foreign stars to U.S. audiences has always been a tricky proposition. In tennis, it usually takes a multiple Slam winner with spark and charisma to coax U.S. fans out of favoring homegrown talent.

Consider that ratings for last year's all-Belgian U.S. Open final on CBS dropped by about half from the 2002 final between Serena and Venus Williams.

"Americans have always been slow at warming up to foreigners," said Prague-born Navratilova, a naturalized U.S. citizen. "Even with Steffi Graf it took years and years," she said.

The Belgian clash has some compelling themes. Neither player has won here, and Clijsters is trying to win her first major after losing to Henin-Hardenne in the French Open and U.S. Open finals last year. The winner Saturday will depart Melbourne with the top ranking.

Clijsters, an outgoing personality who hails from the Flemish-speaking region of Belgium, holds a 9-8 career edge against the more reserved, French-speaking Henin-Hardenne. Though she has been hampered by an ankle injury, Clijsters has one clear edge: the home-court advantage.

Known Down Under as "Aussie Kim" because of her long-term relationship (and now engagement) to Lleyton Hewitt, the fans will be behind her.

But because of Clijsters' health concerns and the two bruising losses to Henin-Hardenne in majors, most pundits are picking Henin-Hardenne. "There are more question marks for Kim," Shriver said.



This is the article I was talking about. It probably has already been posted.

tennisIlove09
Feb 8th, 2004, 10:51 PM
Good article. Carlos is right. :)

Volcana
Feb 8th, 2004, 10:54 PM
So the answer to my question is

1) I probably haven't been paying attention to the right media outlets

2) Some people are happy as long as it ISN'T Venus vs Serena

3) Some people assume this is just because Venus and Serena are out, and we'll see Belgian vs Williams at some point

And point 1) is probably the most relevant.

CinnamoninCinema
Feb 8th, 2004, 11:08 PM
So the answer to my question is

1) I probably haven't been paying attention to the right media outlets

2) Some people are happy as long as it ISN'T Venus vs Serena

3) Some people assume this is just because Venus and Serena are out, and we'll see Belgian vs Williams at some point

And point 1) is probably the most relevant.

The answer to your question is that even with Kim-Justine finals, you know both want to win with every fibre of their being. You don't KNOW that with the sisters.

But if you don't like either Belgian, I'm sure their matches are a little boring. But you must understand, if you dislike both sisters, their matches are irrelevant. The winner is Team Williams. Just like matches with the Maleeva sisters weren't really important. Maleeva wins, either way. They are the same entity to non fans, and this is what sister fans have had so much trouble grasping. It doesn't matter to us whether Venus or Serena wins their matches, and when you don't care about the result, how you be interested in the match? I don't like Kim or Justine, but I care about the result since it actually matters ...

Black Mamba.
Feb 9th, 2004, 01:35 AM
All I know is just like any sport women's tennis needs a little variety.

fammmmedspin
Feb 9th, 2004, 01:44 AM
Partly because the Belgian who loses is the younger of the pair and is improving. if it was clear she stood no chance at all people would get very bored.

Fyndh0rnElf
Feb 9th, 2004, 03:07 AM
The problem is the WTA has FEMALE tennis players. I don0t think there ar eonly 2-4 players who can reach all finals every year. WOMEN are so disturbing because they think "ok now I'm supposed to lose to the no1234 seed whatever because I've lived up to my seeding and I'm destined to stay in this ranking because it belongs to me. Not lower nor higher right here!"

The tennis potential out there deserves more competition! the other top players need to realize they can win, instead of securing their seed and just hoping something better will happen, though they don't believe in it!!!

SerialKiller#69
Feb 9th, 2004, 03:50 AM
But the main difference this time is the Williamses are nowhere to be seen. Serena is uncertain. Venus crumbled easily. Ofcourse, who should we expect to be in the finals.

Sam L
Feb 9th, 2004, 03:53 AM
Justine and Kim aren't sisters. They actually look like they REALLY want to beat each other. And I cannot emphasize the word REALLY more.

But, Justine and Kim finals are boring anyway, the last one was pretty good though.

Volcana
Feb 9th, 2004, 04:02 AM
They are the same entity to non fans, and this is what sister fans have had so much trouble grasping.
Well, since they ARE two different people, we expect people to have sense enough to see that. They don't even look alike. (Except of course to people who think we all do.) You could, for example, not like Hantuchova and Dokic, and still be intelligent enough to realize that they are NOT 'the same entity'. Why should I, or any other Williams fan, assume non-Williams fans are both stupid and in-observant?

I think perhaps you underestimate the intellect and perception of non-Williams fans.

Venus Forever
Feb 9th, 2004, 04:18 AM
Well, since they ARE two different people, we expect people to have sense enough to see that. They don't even look alike. (Except of course to people who think we all do.) You could, for example, not like Hantuchova and Dokic, and still be intelligent enough to realize that they are NOT 'the same entity'. Why should I, or any other Williams fan, assume non-Williams fans are both stupid and in-observant?

I think perhaps you underestimate the intellect (http://www.adsrve.com/linkredirect.php?h=345,3650685,wtaworld.com) and perception of non-Williams fans.
Exactly.

It the tennis fan's fault then. If they are too stupid to realize the difference between two people, then they should not be watching in the first place. The only thing similar about Venus and Serena are that they are family. Their personalities are completely different, both on and off the court.

CinnamoninCinema
Feb 9th, 2004, 05:08 AM
Well, since they ARE two different people, we expect people to have sense enough to see that. They don't even look alike. (Except of course to people who think we all do.) You could, for example, not like Hantuchova and Dokic, and still be intelligent enough to realize that they are NOT 'the same entity'. Why should I, or any other Williams fan, assume non-Williams fans are both stupid and in-observant?

I think perhaps you underestimate the intellect and perception of non-Williams fans.

I think perhaps you missed my point. Which is exactly what I said Williams fans do, lol.

I didn't say they were the same people. Everybody knows that they aren't. They are the same ENTITY. The Williamses. Most people either love them or hate them. Either way, you don't get many people who just love one but not the other. But you have a lot of people who dislike both. To them, it doesn't matter who wins the title because the Williamses have won.

Let's see if you can grasp it this time.

CinnamoninCinema
Feb 9th, 2004, 05:08 AM
Exactly.

It the tennis fan's fault then. If they are too stupid to realize the difference between two people, then they should not be watching in the first place. The only thing similar about Venus and Serena are that they are family. Their personalities are completely different, both on and off the court.

You have misunderstood. Volcana was "exactly" wrong.

Venus Forever
Feb 9th, 2004, 05:20 AM
I think perhaps you missed my point. Which is exactly what I said Williams fans do, lol.

I didn't say they were the same people. Everybody knows that they aren't. They are the same ENTITY. The Williamses. Most people either love them or hate them. Either way, you don't get many people who just love one but not the other. But you have a lot of people who dislike both. To them, it doesn't matter who wins (http://www.adsrve.com/linkredirect.php?h=73,3650685,wtaworld.com) the title because the Williamses have won.

Let's see if you can grasp it this time.
Perhaps you didn't read what you wrote.

I didn't say they were the same people. ... To them, it doesn't matter who wins (http://www.adsrve.com/linkredirect.php?h=73,3650685,wtaworld.com) the title because the Williamses have won.
They aren't the same person, but they both still win??

See now, I thought they engraved one person's name on the Single's trophy. Silly me.:o

Again, it's still the fans problems. They are separate individuals with different personalities. They are not both winning, as one is still losing and going through the pain of losing, as evident by Venus' face in the past few finals.

If they can't face it that two sisters are that great, then they should watch a team sport. There are no persons alike in the tennis game, only their last names are similar.

CinnamoninCinema
Feb 9th, 2004, 05:23 AM
Perhaps you didn't read what you wrote.


They aren't the same person, but they both still win??

See now, I thought they engraved one person's name on the Single's trophy. Silly me.:o

Again, it's still the fans problems. They are separate individuals with different personalities. They are not both winning, as one is still losing and going through the pain of losing, as evident by Venus' face in the past few finals.

If they can't face it that two sisters are that great, then they should watch a team sport. There are no persons alike in the tennis game, only their last names are similar.

Look. A question was asked in this thread. I HAVE ANSWERED IT. MY ANSWER IS CORRECT. You don't want to accept it. You want to argue with me. I can give you the answers but if you don't want to accept them, what can I do?

Like I said from the outset, Williams fans just can't grasp this concept.

And by the way, it was YOU who did not read what I wrote. Or maybe you just didn't get it. Again.

bandabou
Feb 9th, 2004, 05:54 AM
The " They are sisters, so it doesnīt matter who wins"-excuse for hating the all-Williams finals is suuucccchhhhhhh a tired and old one. Pretty lame imo.

And then the:" Iīm not sure they REALLY want to beat each other."-thing.....please, please. Did or didnīt Serena cry after Wimbledon ī00?! Wasnīt she cursing at Venus as many of the non-fans were quick to point at the OZī03?! Oh no...she sure didnīt want to beat Venus.

Then the lastest ABF wasnīt boring?! Why because Justine got a mini-choke mode and forgot to finish the match in straigths or because the chair-umpire "blew" a call?!

Sam L
Feb 9th, 2004, 05:59 AM
The " They are sisters, so it doesnīt matter who wins"-excuse for hating the all-Williams finals is suuucccchhhhhhh a tired and old one. Pretty lame imo.

And then the:" Iīm not sure they REALLY want to beat each other."-thing.....please, please. Did or didnīt Serena cry after Wimbledon ī00?! Wasnīt she cursing at Venus as many of the non-fans were quick to point at the OZī03?! Oh no...she sure didnīt want to beat Venus.

Then the lastest ABF wasnīt boring?! Why because Justine got a mini-choke mode and forgot to finish the match in straigths or because the chair-umpire "blew" a call?!
They've admitted openly that they don't like to play each other because one of them would have to lose and it would mean one of them would get their feelings hurt. Nothing wrong with that, they're sisters, but it's just not a good rivalry to watch.

Rivalries are better when they don't feel about each other's feelings.

bandabou
Feb 9th, 2004, 06:09 AM
They've admitted openly that they don't like to play each other because one of them would have to lose and it would mean one of them would get their feelings hurt. Nothing wrong with that, they're sisters, but it's just not a good rivalry to watch.

Rivalries are better when they don't feel about each other's feelings.

Says who?! Shouldnīt it be about the tennis?! They can play some of the most brilliant tennis out there, but because they are sisters people wouldnīt enjoy it?! Hmmm....interesting.

I guess most people didnīt reckon with the fact that two sisters could be this good.

Crazy Canuck
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:07 AM
The problem is the WTA has FEMALE tennis players. I don0t think there ar eonly 2-4 players who can reach all finals every year. WOMEN are so disturbing because they think "ok now I'm supposed to lose to the no1234 seed whatever because I've lived up to my seeding and I'm destined to stay in this ranking because it belongs to me. Not lower nor higher right here!"

The tennis potential out there deserves more competition! the other top players need to realize they can win, instead of securing their seed and just hoping something better will happen, though they don't believe in it!!!
I fail to see what their sex has to do with this.

Crazy Canuck
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:08 AM
Says who?! Shouldnīt it be about the tennis?! They can play some of the most brilliant tennis out there, but because they are sisters people wouldnīt enjoy it?! Hmmm....interesting.

I guess most people didnīt reckon with the fact that two sisters could be this good.
No, I don't think that's it.

Crazy Canuck
Feb 9th, 2004, 09:09 AM
What? Are you still alive? Please die please die please die! Slowly and painfully would be better but anyway you can improve the world die die die!
Willow actually had a point. Not that harloo bothered to address it.

tennischick
Feb 9th, 2004, 10:52 AM
if only Kim would have a break-thru win so that i could start enjoying these finals! it's not that i find them boring; i just don't enjoy them.

and i only enjoyed the Sisters finals when Serena started dominating.

or maybe i just like Serena and Kim and would prefer to see them dominant.

DA FOREHAND
Feb 9th, 2004, 01:52 PM
I think perhaps you missed my point. Which is exactly what I said Williams fans do, lol.

I didn't say they were the same people. Everybody knows that they aren't. They are the same ENTITY. The Williamses. Most people either love them or hate them. Either way, you don't get many people who just love one but not the other. But you have a lot of people who dislike both. To them, it doesn't matter who wins the title because the Williamses have won.

Let's see if you can grasp it this time.

That's more a cultural thing. I love Venus Williams, I like Serena Williams, Venus' personality is more to my liking.

Blacks are often lumped together in peoples perceptions.

starr
Feb 9th, 2004, 02:09 PM
And sisters are often lumped together as well.

I know many families where two sisters are just refered to as... "the girls" where as if it were a boy and a girl, they might be given seperate name. I know I do this all the time. "how are the girls?" "what are the girls doing this summer?" I don't think that is unusual.

People get lumped all the time in different ways. I think when the "lumping" has had or does have a negative connotation, people get more sensitive about it. I, for one, am not all that fond of blond jokes. :)

lee station
Feb 9th, 2004, 03:18 PM
http://www.sport.be/proximusdiamondgames/inbeeld/woensdag/images/foto7.jpg
http://eur.news1.yimg.com/eur.yimg.com/xp/reuters_ids/20040119/i/473803738.jpg
http://www.openboxlatino.cl/protectores/wallpapers/serena_williams_wall.jpg
:)

harloo
Feb 9th, 2004, 04:42 PM
Now that the smooth-stroking Henin-Hardenne, 21, and the athletic Clijsters, 20, are blazing a similar trail, the same grumbles are heard. With no merit, some say.

What grumbles? I have not heard any of the outcries.

bandabou
Feb 9th, 2004, 05:01 PM
Example: I didnīt hear ms. Mauresmo say anything about dem Belgian-domination being bad for tennis, boring etc....and Juju, oh Juju. I guess that now that SHE is the one whoīs reaching all the finals, it ainīt bad anymore for the same two people to reach the finals, huh?!

Martian Willow
Feb 9th, 2004, 05:31 PM
I think it says something quite profound and disturbing about the human race as a whole that people who are fans of 'the sisters' can't imagine, even for one second, what it sounds like when they tell us 'the sisters' shouldn't be treated as a single entity.

Bezz
Feb 9th, 2004, 05:33 PM
Its a differnt dynamic with justine and kim, i dont understand why people cant see that??. If it was say Hingis and venus that was gettin to the finals all the time (i wish) then nobody would care becuase at least we would be guarnteed some exciting matches, and that we knew who to cheer for and who we wanted to win. This is the same for justine and kim (but on a lesser extent), i have heard crisitcism that until kim wins a slam they are just not exciting finals, but with the sisters it differnt, yeah its the same 2 ppl like kim and justine, but these 2 people are sisters, to williams fans it probably doesnt seem like a big deal cos yu dont mind who wins, but it is to fans of other players, since they have always been lumped together yu see them as one. What we need is for 1 williams and 1 belgian to be in the final, that would be more exciting IMO :)

bandabou
Feb 9th, 2004, 05:48 PM
Its a differnt dynamic with justine and kim, i dont understand why people cant see that??. If it was say Hingis and venus that was gettin to the finals all the time (i wish) then nobody would care becuase at least we would be guarnteed some exciting matches, and that we knew who to cheer for and who we wanted to win. This is the same for justine and kim (but on a lesser extent), i have heard crisitcism that until kim wins a slam they are just not exciting finals, but with the sisters it differnt, yeah its the same 2 ppl like kim and justine, but these 2 people are sisters, to williams fans it probably doesnt seem like a big deal cos yu dont mind who wins, but it is to fans of other players, since they have always been lumped together yu see them as one. What we need is for 1 williams and 1 belgian to be in the final, that would be more exciting IMO :)

Yeah, yeah....but it still sounds like blah blah. If williams-williams was boring and this and that, donīt see how Justine vs Kim has been any better.

Bezz
Feb 9th, 2004, 06:06 PM
Yeah, yeah....but it still sounds like blah blah. If williams-williams was boring and this and that, donīt see how Justine vs Kim has been any better.
Basically when yu read between the lines all williams fans want to say is that " its cos they is black" :rolleyes:. Its an easy cop out IMO. Yu refuse to believe that ppl can have favourites besides the williams or not love them as much as yu, that ppl might not want to see the all williams finals more than justine-kim ones for any other reason than that they are racist.

Some ppl have Issues.

CinnamoninCinema
Feb 9th, 2004, 06:08 PM
Like I said, Bezz, Willow .... I said it in my first post in this thread. The Williams fans will never grasp this concept. I have spelled it out clear as day, and they wanna argue with it. They don't accept the truth. So don't bother.

Jericho
Feb 9th, 2004, 06:28 PM
Like I said, Bezz, Willow .... I said it in my first post in this thread. The Williams fans will never grasp this concept. I have spelled it out clear as day, and they wanna argue with it. They don't accept the truth. So don't bother.
you are truly an idiot if you believe your opinion is the truth, and people say we williams fans always think we are always right :rolleyes:

If people dont like the Williams sisters, they shouldnt use their boring finals as an excuse and then shut the hell up about the equally boring ass belgian finals especially the commentators

bandabou
Feb 9th, 2004, 06:30 PM
What truth is there?! If people donīt like the Williamses,.....hey it can happen. Not everybody can love everybody.

But if you donīt enjoy their finals because of the TENNIS played during those matches, thus find them boring....how in hell can you enjoy the Belgian-finals?!

Which are even more boring?! Then I guess then it ainīt about the tennis anymore. I am a Williams fan and didnīt enjoy most of their matches, because the tennis wasnīt always that great...I can admit that and that it would be nicer for them to meet someone else in the finals.

It is dem other fans, who canīt accept this about the ABF...they havenīt been great.

Frank Riley
Feb 10th, 2004, 11:40 PM
easy because no one really liked the Williams girls.

VS Fan
Feb 11th, 2004, 12:59 AM
Hmmm...

What if Anna Kornakova had lived up to the potential that she showed at Wimbledon 1999, (semifinals) and just happened to have a younger sister in the game that followed her.
(With her sister being precieved as stunning as Anna)

Later the two would have been regularly meeting in Slam finals as the #1 and #2 players. Perhaps with one of them having a lopsided edge in these meetings.

For reference Serena is 5-1 vs Venus in Slam finals.
Also Justine is 3-0 vs Kim in Slam finals

Hmmm... The only difference here is....well you know.

Any preceptions of how the press and tennis community would have handled this???

Me thinks that it would have differed greatly from the line we hear concering Williams vs Williams!

Wonder why??? I hypothisize, you decide!!

Volcana
Feb 11th, 2004, 03:20 AM
Let's see if you can grasp it this time.
You're too stupid to realize they're two different people.

Got it.

Martian Willow
Feb 11th, 2004, 03:24 AM
Lots of stupid people in this thread. :)

VW#1
Feb 11th, 2004, 03:43 AM
I think the peoplke saying that for non williams fans it is boring because it goes to the same camp are spot on, considering that Oracene herself says it's a win for the family, there are no losers

Doraemon
Feb 11th, 2004, 03:45 AM
you are truly an idiot if you believe your opinion is the truth, and people say we williams fans always think we are always right :rolleyes:

If people dont like the Williams sisters, they shouldnt use their boring finals as an excuse and then shut the hell up about the equally boring ass belgian finals especially the commentators

I have never heard anyone say they don't like the sisters because their finals are boring. Or do we live on different planets?


I think part of the reason why the sisters' finals are criticized more than the Belgians' are is the fact that they are siblings. Not enough people are aware that they are separate individuals yet. When people talk about the sisters, many of them still recognize them as a set of sisters rather than two different tennis players. In fact when Venus came here last week for the first time, a lot of firends of mine questioned it wondering if she had been here before. They clearly confuse her with her sister, Serena. Of course they are just casual tennis fans and don't follow the sport much at all. On the other hand, even though the Belgians are not nearly as famous as the sisters here, those who know them can easily recognize them as different people as they look different, have totally different names.
Having said that, it's unfair to the sisters to say their finals are more boring than the Belians' just because they are sisters. I am honestly getting fed up with seeing the same two people in the finals of a GS over and over again no matter how competitive they get.. I mean.. it's not just about a rivalry. We tennis fans want something different all the time don't we? I think it would be great if we had a Belian/Williams final next time or one that involved someone neither named Williams nor Belgian. After all, we haven't had a final that is not all-Williams or all Belgian for more than two years and coincidently the last epic final came right before the trend started (the '02 AO final).

Doraemon
Feb 11th, 2004, 03:47 AM
I think the peoplke saying that for non williams fans it is boring because it goes to the same camp are spot on, considering that Oracene herself says it's a win for the family, there are no losers

I think that's also true. It's a win/win situation for the family in a way.

Diya
Feb 11th, 2004, 05:15 AM
How come I'm NOT hearing 'watching the same two slam finalist will get boring'?

Why do you care so much about what others say ? :confused: The Williams finals were boring to some and interesting to others just like the Belgian finals are

CinnamoninCinema
Feb 11th, 2004, 05:29 AM
You're too stupid to realize they're two different people.

Got it.

And I've lost all respect for you. :rolleyes:

Serendy Willick
Feb 11th, 2004, 03:27 PM
"same thing with the sisters. i was so pissed venus lost wimby 03 and AO 03 too. but at least the matches were more competitive...and wimby, u didnt know who was gonna win."

Wimbledon 2003 final was boring and totally predictable. Venus was "injured". Early in the match, it was obvious that Serena would win the match. It was just a question of "how easily". To make matters worse, IMO, Serena let up a little on Venus and "gave" her a few service games. Even the commentators thought so. How do you serve so weakly and still win your service games against Serena Williams? Had that been any other player serving those cream puff serves, Serena would have hit every one back for a winner, IMO.

AO 2003 was actually exciting. I believe they were even cursing at each other, under their breath, in that match. Good competition.

The Wimbeldon 02 final was very good. Venus didnt lose that match, Serena won it.

bandabou
Feb 11th, 2004, 05:08 PM
The Wimbeldon 02 final was very good. Venus didnt lose that match, Serena won it.

The first-set alone was better than ANY GS-matches the Belgians have played against each other....too bad people wonīt see that.

alfajeffster
Feb 11th, 2004, 05:30 PM
The first-set alone was better than ANY GS-matches the Belgians have played against each other....too bad people wonīt see that.
I thought the best tennis I've ever seen Serena Williams play were the matches leading up to her Quarter-Final versus Venus at Wimbledon, and help me here, the year before? She lost, and yes, she choked that match, but you could see in her face it wasn't EVER going to happen again, and so far, it hasn't!

bandabou
Feb 11th, 2004, 05:45 PM
I thought the best tennis I've ever seen Serena Williams play were the matches leading up to her Quarter-Final versus Venus at Wimbledon, and help me here, the year before? She lost, and yes, she choked that match, but you could see in her face it wasn't EVER going to happen again, and so far, it hasn't!

Aaah....ī00 wimbledon. The beginning of the Williams-era....yeah, Serena was en fuego back then! Losing like 12 games en route to the semiīs( not qrtrs)! Her ī02 Wimbledon was quite good too, after round 4...she was unstoppable.