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View Full Version : Venus can learn from loss - By Pam Shriver


ghosts
Jan 24th, 2004, 05:39 AM
MELBOURNE, Australia -- An awful start for No. 3 Venus Williams led to an awful finish, as she fell to No. 25 Lisa Raymond 6-4, 7-6 (5) in the third round on Saturday.

Williams' serve broke down early with lots of double faults. Right away, Raymond forged ahead with confidence as she had two breaks under her belt. Then, thanks to brave play -- big forehands, coming to the net with efficiency and attacking up the center to really go after Williams' second serve -- Raymond beat Williams for the first time ever.
Raymond pushed Williams around the court. It was shocking, really, that Williams seemed to let Raymond dictate play. The first two matches here turned out to be false security on Williams' readiness to play. When you look at it, though, from July to January, three matches of competitive tennis and two exhibition matches are just not enough to make you match tough. When she was tested for the first time, she couldn't consistently raise her level. You need match play to be able to do that -- even if you're Venus Williams.
In the second set against Raymond, Williams' second serve was good enough to send her to a possible third set, but her ground strokes couldn't back it up. She just couldn't put her game together all at once. Sometimes when you don't play for a while, you don't think through the problems as they are happening on the court. It seemed like that might have been the case for Williams here. Plus, because she started off serving so poorly, it put her out-of-sorts.
And Raymond was waiting for that opportunity. She was in place and prepared for the forehand on the returns. Raymond played the best match of her career. She held herself together and maintained a confidence as if she had beaten Venus before, when in fact she'd never even won a set.
It seems that doubles partner Martina Navratilova's influence is only positive for Raymond, who has struggled staying upbeat on court. There's no one more positive, who would make sure you turn over every stone to play your best, then Martina Navratilova. Some of that will rub off on Raymond, even at age 30.
Where does Williams go from here? It would have been good if she could have played a bit more tennis before this event. She needs more match play, although she was trying not to injury herself by playing too much before this event.
Still, it's a victory if she's able to play three matches injury-free. She even served one in at 120 mph in this match, something she's been unable to do since first suffering this abdominal injury. It's her job, now, to get as many positives out of this experience as she can.
She can still have a good season, but there are holes in her game that she needs to work on. Her second serve isn't any better under pressure; it's flawed technically. There's no way an athlete like Williams should have her head going off to the left during her service motion. Sometimes she's not even looking at the ball when she strikes it. It allows opponents to really attack her second serve.
Also, Venus Williams might never again have that aura about her. It's something every champion risks losing. That Raymond came on court without intimidation indicates that the whole locker room no longer feels in awe. And you win a lot of matches through bluff and intimidation.

Diya
Jan 24th, 2004, 05:42 AM
Also, Venus Williams might never again have that aura about her. It's something every champion risks losing. That Raymond came on court without intimidation indicates that the whole locker room no longer feels in awe. And you win a lot of matches through bluff and intimidation.

Well said !

DemWilliamsGulls
Jan 24th, 2004, 05:49 AM
Well said !

I doubt that is true at all...if you think about it....Venus lost to 5 grands slams to her sister only....meaning that she could have beaten anyone else on the WTA tour....i mean...its only common sense to see that she was not at her best..being that she was out for over 6 months..to come to a grand slam and loose to someone that has never one A MATCH everytime they played....i guess all ya'll williams haters can have ya'll temporary fun.....since ya'll never really had the change while the Williams were dominating the WTA...Venus AND Serena will be back....time will tell. :devil:

Cybelle Darkholme
Jan 24th, 2004, 05:51 AM
The aura may be gone but it goes for every champion. Now the real test is to get back to the top.

Martina Hingis couldn't do it. Slam draught after the 99 aussie and then retirement.

Lindsay couldnt do it. Slam draught after 2000 aussie open. though her opportunity is right here and now to grab.

Jennifer couldn't do it. Slam draught after her 2002 aussie open. Now she is injured.

Venus you do not want to follow in these footsteps. Its okay imo if you lose after six months off and frankly im surprised and pleased she did so well in her matches and clawed her way back into the lisa match with opportunities to send it to a third. With more match play she probably would have sent it to a third so well done.

Now we will see how long serena and justine hang on to their aura of invicibility. They have each won two of the last four slams. How long will their aua intimidate the field?

VW#1
Jan 24th, 2004, 05:52 AM
i understand how losing your aura could be bad in theory, but in reality I don't get it. I mean yeah I'm sure that helps, but Venus still has the ability to beat anyone on the court. Her game is what ultimately speaks in a win or loss not her having or losing her aura.

Cybelle Darkholme
Jan 24th, 2004, 05:53 AM
I doubt that is true at all...if you think about it....Venus lost to 5 grands slams to her sister only....meaning that she could have beaten anyone else on the WTA tour....i mean...its only common sense to see that she was not at her best..being that she was out for over 6 months..to come to a grand slam and loose to someone that has never one A MATCH everytime they played....i guess all ya'll williams haters can have ya'll temporary fun.....since ya'll never really had the change while the Williams were dominating the WTA...Venus AND Serena will be back....time will tell. :devil:

Never pay attention to anyone who says that being in five grand slam finals and yes losing them is a poor performance. Anyone who says that is an idiot and doesn't know what the heck they are talking about. No you dont win being runnerup but you sure as heck did better than the other 126 players who lost before you did.

One thing is for certain anyone with a brain would rather lose in the final and have a chance at the title than lose in the first round and have no chance at all.

alexacto
Jan 24th, 2004, 05:59 AM
Great article by Pam, level headed analysis. How can anyone go into a slam after 6 months off and get into the semis ? No way Jose. At that level the girls mean business. As much as I like Venus for her grace on and off the court, she just doesnt look like she can hack it the same way she used to. Hopefully she has the motivation to get back in...maybe this loss would provide the motivation?

Cybelle Darkholme
Jan 24th, 2004, 05:59 AM
i understand how losing your aura could be bad in theory, but in reality I don't get it. I mean yeah I'm sure that helps, but Venus still has the ability to beat anyone on the court. Her game is what ultimately speaks in a win or loss not her having or losing her aura.


The aura really says more about the weak willed and weak kneed players who let the aura of another player psyche them out. Those players are pathetic and need a sports psychologist.

anyway venus has a career the majority of palyers would kill for. what gets me is that someone who has been in so many recent slam finals is talked about as being "finished' then what does that say about the other elite grandslam winning players who have yet to see a slam final in years.... jennifer, lindsay, monica, martina..:tape:

Venus will turn things around hopefully as will lindsay and the others.

Midnite Surfer
Jan 24th, 2004, 06:04 AM
Well said !
Don't get it twisted Dimya. Intimidation came from incredible performances. Getting to the finals of the US Open in her debut performance had nothing to do with intimidation and everything to do with skill. You are another one of those pathetic people who haunt this board not to support your fave but to support the defeat of your targeted "enemies". There are far too many people like you in the world. Venus is way too much for you to take on. Give it up. If you live for moments like these then you are going to have a very disappointing year:kiss:

Venus_Is_Queen
Jan 24th, 2004, 06:08 AM
It seemes as though Pam finally go ther wish... to put to pen and paper the demise of Venus Williams. And I love how she just glows in the statement of how Venus has lost her aura as a champion and threat, even the whole locker oom knows this fact blah blah blah...

Crow now you green eyed envious hater but Venus will return..

Did she state all of this when Davenport had her slow comeback, hmmm....

jojoseph
Jan 24th, 2004, 06:27 AM
All I'll say is that her press conference interview looked as if it was some kind of act.

Keith17
Jan 24th, 2004, 06:31 AM
All I'll say is that her press conference interview looked as if it was some kind of act.
It always seems that way when a Williams' loses...

~ The Leopard ~
Jan 24th, 2004, 07:08 AM
Classy comment, jojo. Very classy.

Roddick_tease
Jan 24th, 2004, 07:41 AM
Um Venus hit a higher ration of winners to unforced errors than she has in almost any loss she's played. So let's stop pretending she played poorly, Pam, because she didn't.

Rollo
Jan 24th, 2004, 07:54 AM
Good comment RoddickTease. The reality may not be reflected in the match stats, but Venus hit almost as many winners as errors and had twice the number of aces as she had double faults. Credit goes to Raymond-and while Venus may not have been at her best she certainly wasn't at her worst.


Pam is dead right on the second serve however. Venus needs to get some lessons from the best (sister Serena) to fix it!

jojoseph
Jan 24th, 2004, 07:59 AM
Classy comment, jojo. Very classy.
Not quite sure what's that's supposed to mean.

If you watched the interview, you saw her say how very disappointing it was, then proceed to laugh her ass off.

Dave B
Jan 24th, 2004, 08:21 AM
I doubt that is true at all...if you think about it....Venus lost to 5 grands slams to her sister only....meaning that she could have beaten anyone else on the WTA tour....i mean...its only common sense to see that she was not at her best..being that she was out for over 6 months..to come to a grand slam and loose to someone that has never one A MATCH everytime they played....i guess all ya'll williams haters can have ya'll temporary fun.....since ya'll never really had the change while the Williams were dominating the WTA...Venus AND Serena will be back....time will tell. :devil:

I hate comments like this. I mean, you could be right, but you could also be wrong. None of us have a crystal ball. Many players heal from injuries, but never return to the same form. I am not a "Williams hater", but all I know is that Serena didn't show and Venus, as she said herself, wasn't the best player. You can be hopeful for the future, and I hope that Venus improves her form. However, as a fan of tennis now, I know as well as everyone else that Venus isn't at the top of the game at the present. As a Venus fan, its understandable that you are hopeful for the future. But your presumption that Venus will return in full force soon seems awfully weak for someone who hasn't won a title in almost a year.

jojoseph
Jan 25th, 2004, 03:10 AM
Not quite sure what's that's supposed to mean.

If you watched the interview, you saw her say how very disappointing it was, then proceed to laugh her ass off.
The Leopard, am I wrong, or no? I mean, you did see the same interview as me, right?

Cybelle Darkholme
Jan 25th, 2004, 04:05 AM
It always seems that way when a Williams' loses...

You mean act like how a certain player had a televsion actor feed her lines after her loss in the us open semis... :tape:

dreamgoddess099
Jan 25th, 2004, 05:33 AM
The aura really says more about the weak willed and weak kneed players who let the aura of another player psyche them out. Those players are pathetic and need a sports psychologist.

Exactly, people treat the other players on tour like that are damsels in distress in need of someone to save them from the big bad Williamses. :rolleyes: If the other players are weak and afraid then that's their problem. This is a sport where only the best win, not little league where everybody gets a trophy for participation. I don't know why people seem to feel sorry for the other players and think they are so disadvantaged. Venus and Serena are great players who have never been intimidated by any player. It's not their responsiblity to show mercy because the other girls are weak minded. This recent loss says nothing, absolutely nothing, about Venus except that she needs more match play. Some people are reading far to much into that match. You are an idiot I you think she's no longer a threat in any of the remaining majors this year based upon a loss she had in her first tournament back in six months. :rolleyes:

BTW, Pam needs to stop with the auro bullshit. Even if Venus had no so-called aura, she still has more major titles than No Slam Pam. Pam's just mad because she never had any at all.

Serendy Willick
Jan 25th, 2004, 05:37 AM
This aura bullshyt is nothing more than an attempt to undermine Venus and Serenas acheivements as nothing more than "because players are afraid of them" crap. No Pam its because they were simply better on those days and came through in the clutch, not because players were afraid of them. They win on their determination and skills.

Fyndh0rnElf
Jan 25th, 2004, 05:43 AM
Pam Shriver wrote:
"Still, it's a victory if she's able to play three matches injury-free. She even served one in at 120 mph in this match, something she's been unable to do since first suffering this abdominal injury".

What is this?! :speakles: I mean, that woman said that playing 3 matches is a victory for Venus:tape: Has Venus gone so low that even Shriver has pity for her?!
I think not, but Shriver sure takes every chance to knock her down

moby
Jan 25th, 2004, 06:27 AM
The aura really says more about the weak willed and weak kneed players who let the aura of another player psyche them out. Those players are pathetic and need a sports psychologist.

anyway venus has a career the majority of palyers would kill for. what gets me is that someone who has been in so many recent slam finals is talked about as being "finished' then what does that say about the other elite grandslam winning players who have yet to see a slam final in years.... jennifer, lindsay, monica, martina..:tape:
Martina reached the final and held championship points in the last slam she played injury free? :confused:

kosmikgroove
Jan 25th, 2004, 06:35 AM
is there a transcript of her post interview?

CC
Jan 25th, 2004, 06:36 AM
Not quite sure what's that's supposed to mean.

If you watched the interview, you saw her say how very disappointing it was, then proceed to laugh her ass off.
That doesn't mean she wasn't hurt. Laughing might be a way of trying to cover the pain and not be too vulnerable in public. You don't understand the nature of people?

It makes no sense for her to be acting upset - it was a very disappointing result.

~ The Leopard ~
Jan 25th, 2004, 06:38 AM
Jojo, I saw a woman who was kind of smiling through tears trying to be brave. Haven't you ever seen anyone do that before? People often react like that when something terrible has happened to them, or something they interpret as terrible. I'm not her biggest fan but I felt sorry for her.

Mrs. Peel
Jan 25th, 2004, 08:36 AM
All I'll say is that her press conference interview looked as if it was some kind of act.you need help

cool bird
Jan 25th, 2004, 02:36 PM
I dont care who you are. Walking out on to the court with Venus you are more nervous then anyone eles. And you are hopeing she is not playing well. Cus if she is playing well you are off the court quick time.

So she may not have an aura anymore but do players really 100% look at the draw and think yeah i have got Venus tomorrow. What a great chance. Or do most of them think god please let her be off of her game

Deira
Jan 25th, 2004, 03:55 PM
Well well well Pammy Lammy ... what a concept - Venus Williams as an underdog. Will wonders never cease?!!? Don't bet on it green-eyes.

DemWilliamsGulls
Jan 25th, 2004, 04:06 PM
This aura bullshyt is nothing more than an attempt to undermine Venus and Serenas acheivements as nothing more than "because players are afraid of them" crap. No Pam its because they were simply better on those days and came through in the clutch, not because players were afraid of them. They win on their determination and skills.

Exactly ...and it seems like commentators like Pam...actually want Venus to loose thier aura to tennis and follow in the footsteps of Hingis, Capriati and Davenport....what also pisses me off..is that they were also were stating that she might retire...why in the hell would you retire...being the Tennis Icon venus is, game is still good, and she is only 23? Thats insane...when it players on the tour thats over 30. I think a lot these things are on a lot of commentators wishlist...because of less intimidation in the future.

harloo
Jan 25th, 2004, 06:28 PM
Raymond served no aces on Venus and still won. Venus made too many errors, and her serve was horrible, because she was commited double fault after double fault. Once her serve goes then it effects all parts of her game.

I am sick of Pam and her double standard analysis. Did she say all this about Davenport, or Capriati? Did she mention about their aura being taken away from them? No she did not. It was like Pam's own personal Mardi Gras when Venus lost. It's o.k. though, because both sisters will prove her whole crew wrong. :fiery:

mimbari24
Jan 25th, 2004, 07:22 PM
Before winning Wimbledon in 2000, Venus lost twice in the 2nd round and only reached the 1/4s at the French. Plus there were rumors then that she was going to retire. I wouldn't worry. Venus will own the summer as usual (along with lil sis of course).

Serendy Willick
Jan 25th, 2004, 08:56 PM
Jojo, I saw a woman who was kind of smiling through tears trying to be brave. Haven't you ever seen anyone do that before? People often react like that when something terrible has happened to them, or something they interpret as terrible. I'm not her biggest fan but I felt sorry for her.

She lost a tennis match:rolleyes: the world is not gonna end, she will win more than she loses this year.

~ The Leopard ~
Jan 25th, 2004, 10:25 PM
^What's your point? Why the rolleyes smilie? Of course it's only a game, and she'll soon get over it anyway. Does that mean I shouldn't feel sorry for someone who is visibly upset (for whatever reason)? This seems pretty callous.

Jakeev
Jan 25th, 2004, 10:34 PM
Look not taking anything away from Lisa Raymond but people are acting as if Venus played a crap match when she didn't.

Sure she has over forty unforced errors but she has won matches with scores more. Did you forget that Venus has 14 aces and twice as many winners then Lisa?

The match could have went anyway. Just that in this one particular match, Lisa was able to win points at key moments.

Against any other third-round opponent, Venus probably would have been in the next round, but it wasn't meant to be.

Midnite Surfer
Jan 26th, 2004, 12:14 AM
Look not taking anything away from Lisa Raymond but people are acting as if Venus played a crap match when she didn't.

Sure she has over forty unforced errors but she has won matches with scores more. Did you forget that Venus has 14 aces and twice as many winners then Lisa?

The match could have went anyway. Just that in this one particular match, Lisa was able to win points at key moments.

Against any other third-round opponent, Venus probably would have been in the next round, but it wasn't meant to be.
Venus played like she used to play back in 1999. Jakeev you are really forsaking what Venus is capable of. She made 8 unforced errors in the first two games. She was only hitting aces when her back was against the wall and she was trying to save break points. She was not herself at all. I am not taking anything away from Lisa Raymond but that was "the wild child" Venus Williams from years gone by. You can appreciate Lisa's performance but please don't try and pass that off as a good performance from Venus. After the standard she has set over the past few years I find that insulting. :rolleyes:

jojoseph
Mar 20th, 2004, 03:54 AM
Sorry for bumping this up, but I never realized that I was replied to.

That doesn't mean she wasn't hurt. Laughing might be a way of trying to cover the pain and not be too vulnerable in public. You don't understand the nature of people?

It makes no sense for her to be acting upset - it was a very disappointing result.No. What I saw was her not really caring that she even lost, nothing more, nothing less. I'm not saying what she said was rehearsed, I'm simply calling it as I see it. As you'd note from my past, I have been a staunch defender of Venus. I have nothing against her, my comments were strictly from an objective perspective. Venus is an excellent player and I always enjoy watching her play.

Jojo, I saw a woman who was kind of smiling through tears trying to be brave. Haven't you ever seen anyone do that before? People often react like that when something terrible has happened to them, or something they interpret as terrible. I'm not her biggest fan but I felt sorry for her.Yes, I have. Did it appear she was? No. What I found unclassy was your comment about me being unclassy.

you need helpNo, I don't. I'm simply voicing what I saw with my own eyes. If you don't like hearing objective opinions, put me on ignore.