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Messenger
Feb 16th, 2002, 01:39 PM
This is from the TV show "Today Tonight" which had a report I saw last year. I'm not sure if it was mentioned here, perhaps the Australian posters missed it. While I don't remember the report word for word I do remember parts of it quite well.

Anyway, the report was on the proposed legislation of lowering the homosexual age of consent in Western Australia, which is higher than the normal age of consent.

A politician lobbying for the new legislation says that Western Australia is "the most homophobic of all the Australian states".

But the proposed legislation is receiving some heavy opposition.

Cut to Margaret Court standing on a stage in front of a large audience. She is introduced as "the greatest player male or female of the 20th century". She addresses the audience by saying "God loves a homosexual but he hates the sin. We are willing to help them overcome their homosexuality." The audience applauds.

Then we go to the story of two sisters both of whom are infertile. One woman says that she was able to get pregnant through IVF treatment but her sister who has a female parter it not allowed any IVF treatment.

Margaret Court says, "It is not right for a child to be raised in an environment like that where it will likely also turn out to be gay. I see families being destroyed." She also says that, "What people do behind closed doors is their business but they shouldn't be allowed to parade their lifestyle in front of me in the street."

As of yet I think the issue is still unresolved.

I have lost all respect for Margaret Court. I know many religious people who do not judge and are supportive of other people's choices. It isn't even about whether or not homosexuality is wrong (which of course it isn't). It's about whether or not gay people should have the same rights as straight people. It's discrimination to have differing ages of consent.

And to think that Billie Jean King still continues to be so nice to Margaret. A couple of years ago the show "This is your life" honoured the life of Margaret Court and Billie recorded a complimentary video message just for the occasion. Even recently Billie has argued that Rod Laver Arena be renamed "Laver Court Arena".

TheBoiledEgg
Feb 16th, 2002, 01:47 PM
but you forgot one thing.... she is of the "collar"

JonBcn
Feb 16th, 2002, 01:47 PM
Maybe shes just randomly lashing out cos shes bitter about never having got equal prize-money.;)

I instantly lose respect for anyone who spouts these kind of views; it just goes to show that there are a lot of ignorant, sheltered, judgemental people around who lives are obviously so unsatisfactory that they have to occupy themselves with interefering in other peoples. The longer she goes on judging other people the less she has to look at herself.

Still, its another generation, and Im happy to say that people like this are less and less common in the world today.

Williams Rulez
Feb 16th, 2002, 01:51 PM
Poo Court poo!! :rolleyes:

thefreedesigner
Feb 16th, 2002, 01:52 PM
Absolutely TBE, those comments are straight out of bible-talk rhetoric. This can't be too much of a surprise.

With people who are of Margaret Court's persuasion I just say:

"Love the person, hate their thinking". It's easily done! She ain't gonna change.

Aloysius
Feb 16th, 2002, 01:55 PM
What's new? :rolleyes: This is the same woman who publically declared that Martina Navratilova was an unfit role model. The woman's been jaded by religion. She may never see the world through clear eyes again. Her intentions might be compassionate, but she's not compassionate by practice. I pity her. Who knows? She might have been a closet case whom has been helped to "overcome" her homosexuality. I don't know, but I pity her.

irma
Feb 16th, 2002, 01:56 PM
this are just views of somebody who refuse to look further then what she knows because it might be scary to discover that she might have wrong ideas and what should she do then?

irma
Feb 16th, 2002, 01:59 PM
I saw a boy in a talkshow once and he claimed to have been "healed" from being gay because he found God, well he still dreamt of boys at night but other then that he was "over" it according to himself
It was realy sad!

barmaid
Feb 16th, 2002, 02:26 PM
Margaret Court is from the "old school" and considering her age where "gays and lesbians" were very few..and the ones that were "out of the closet" were considered "sinful" in their lifestyle was not understood and judged very harshly...Society has grown much more tolerant of homosexuality...when you think back at your mothers and fathers or grandparents ..this was a shocking occurance for someone to find out they prefer their own gender ...but not altogether new as homo's go back to the early Greeks and Romans and we have had it in Bibical times..and of course the condemning passages "Thou shalt not lie down with the same sex" not sure of the accurate quote but you get the gist! So just chaulk this view up to the times...and Margaret hasn't changed all these years and she's NOT going to...Sad, but she joins a majority of people who have no tolerance for Gays or Lesbians!!:rolleyes:
barmaid:wavey:

jrj
Feb 16th, 2002, 02:39 PM
God loves a homosexual but hates the sin? So God had a press confernece on homosexuality?
Greatest tennis player of the 20th Century? NOT!

Lolita
Feb 16th, 2002, 05:26 PM
I agree with Margaret, after all
if Mummy didn't sleep with Daddy
we will not be alive...

joao
Feb 16th, 2002, 05:32 PM
Shame, shame, shame......:fiery:

gogetter
Feb 16th, 2002, 05:35 PM
Hey Lolita,
Mommy doesn't have to sleep with anyone to get a baby. Or have you never heard of artificial insemination? That's why there are so many sperm banks, after all. Welcome to the 21st century...

Mattographer
Feb 16th, 2002, 05:39 PM
I never liked Margaret Court

GoSandrine
Feb 16th, 2002, 05:48 PM
What an arse! :rolleyes:

Crazy Canuck
Feb 16th, 2002, 05:54 PM
I just thank "God" that I'm not that ignorant.

I can't beleive that people can actually say that rubbish, and actually consider to take themselves seriously afterwards.

Its ALMOST laughable.


btw - Lolita, your comment sounded fit for a 10 yr old. Congrats :rolleyes:

Crazy Canuck
Feb 16th, 2002, 05:55 PM
But you know what - people who think like that - its THEIR LOSS. And its THEIR PROBLEM.

People like that, let homophobia rule their life to the point that they try to set out on some personaly crusadae against it.

Its quite sad and pathetic really.

But just remember, its their problem :) Its only uour if u let it be :)

Keith
Feb 16th, 2002, 06:06 PM
I think she is right...

Just kidding of course. I would never want to be "healed" of my homosexuality! Does she have any idea of what would happen to my wardrobe???

I love being gay.

Margaret is just a pasty old hag, who would want to have sex with her anyway?!

GoSandrine
Feb 16th, 2002, 06:14 PM
yummy Avatar, Jennyfan. :drool:

Crazy Canuck
Feb 16th, 2002, 06:14 PM
lol Jenny Fan :D

Sounds Like she's the only one around here who needs any healing!

Do they have some convention on how to heal ignorance too?

KindaNice
Feb 16th, 2002, 06:39 PM
Your right, Aloysius...she was vehement in her "disapproval" of Martina Navratilova.

I can't believe she is still out there shooting her mouth off....what it must be like to be so frickin ignorant.

Someone needs to but a tennis ball in her mouth...

Bright Red
Feb 16th, 2002, 07:52 PM
Even if she doesn't agree with such a lifestyle, there just seems to be so many things to target other than homosexuality. Some opinions are best kept to one's self.

irma
Feb 16th, 2002, 08:05 PM
I don`t understand and that`s general not only in attacking gays but also in religion and in whatever, why can`t people accept that others like to life different or want to believe something different.
as long as you don`t hurt anybody, why care?
My father is also very strong in this, he says on a constant level that our country drives on the evil road because gays can mary here.
I just don`t get it:rolleyes:
Why would I care if two men or women wants to mary?

Monica_Rules
Feb 16th, 2002, 08:52 PM
I'm sorry but Margaret Court is Stupid the comments shes made here clearly show how little she knows about people being gay.
How exaclty will a child in a gay environment become gay?

:rolleyes:

*Izzy*
Feb 16th, 2002, 09:00 PM
I think the worst thing is "The audience applaudes..."

How can people be so small-minded? Go ahead Margaret, have your opinion, but don't expect it to make you look good or mature.

As Margaret said..."What people do behind closed doors is their business but they shouldn't be allowed to parade their lifestyle in front of me in the street."

How about applying the same ignorant principle to your own views Maggie?

I don't think there would be many complaints if you did.

Mattographer
Feb 16th, 2002, 09:08 PM
She addresses the audience by saying "God loves a homosexual but he hates the sin. We are willing to help them overcome their homosexuality." The audience applauds.
The audience applauds? :rolleyes: I think this is the worst thing.

harloo
Feb 16th, 2002, 09:51 PM
Personally, I think she has a right to her opinion concerning homosexuality. Some will never accept it, which is unfortunate, but true. You can't expect other's to agree with that lifestyle if they don't choose too. The sad part about is that society is so homophobic that some gays/lesbians hide it, and become suicidal.

Me, I like to judge people on their character rather than their sexuality. I have all types of friends, and their sexual preference never crosses my mind until they mention something about it. I have no problem with it, it's their choice and life.

Viva
Feb 17th, 2002, 02:32 AM
:fiery: I am ashamed to say that this woman is from the same country as me!!! I cannot stand people who condemn other people's choices in life (even though being gay isn't a choice - people don't choose to be gay, it's just the way they are). And it is not a bad thing.

I think a lot of heterosexual guys could take a few lessons from gay men in the area of sensitivity and courteousness.

And for 1. It is none of her business what other people do.
2. If she doesn't like it she can move to antartica. I'm sure there are no homosexuals there!
And 3. She is just plain ignorant and not worth listening to.

You know what, fuck her!

~RedRose~
Feb 17th, 2002, 02:38 AM
I think shes very arrogant.

SM
Feb 17th, 2002, 06:33 AM
i dont see all the fuss...like her opinion matters anyway? IMO she's just trying anything to get media attention! b*tch :)

Aloysius
Feb 17th, 2002, 01:59 PM
Hey Viva, there might be gay polar bears in Antarctica. ;)

The sad aspect about this whole thing is that she's preaching to an audience. (Irresponsible.) And that she's basically telling all homosexuals to stay in the closet. What if one of her children or one of her grandchildren were gay? What would she do if one of them committed suicide because mum/grandma told them to keep it to themselves? Does she value appearances over a persons' happiness? What a lovely messenger of God she is. :rolleyes:

veryborednow
Feb 17th, 2002, 02:18 PM
I would LOVE to see this woman on the So Graham Norton show. It would be a riot :)

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

essielewis
Feb 17th, 2002, 04:11 PM
. . .still dreamt of boys at night but other then that he was "over" it according to himself

Irma, you're right. This is so sad. A homosexual is never "cured" and he shouldn't want to be. It's people like Margaret Court who cause all the trouble with her stupid, uninformed comments.:mad:

Remember she refused to meet with Alex Stevenson because Alex is illegitimate. After I read that, Margaret Court became a non-person to me.:fiery: Anything she says is idiotic.

Of course, she has a right to her opinion. Everybody does. But I hope there are people in Australia who will counter balance the things she says.

Jakeev
Feb 17th, 2002, 08:30 PM
Being a gay man I have pondered how to respond to this post. But I cannot really be angry at her because she is entitled to believe in what she wants to believe right or wrong.

She does not have to like my lifestyle, but she has every right to say she doesn't also.

I don't know this stuff just doesn't bother me anymore.

Halardfan
Feb 17th, 2002, 09:34 PM
I think her views are utterly depressing, that in this day and age people can think way is baffling.

And it really really angers me.

Worse still, with the resurgence of the 'Moral Majority' , it doesnt look like people are getting any wiser, on a host of subjects.

Just look at the reaction to Colin Powell's mild endorsement of contraception...the far right wing worked up in a lather, spouting their babble.

Mad world.

Kart
Feb 17th, 2002, 10:30 PM
Well she's entitled to her view I guess, as long as she doesn't preach it in front of me on the street as well ...

Lisbeth
Feb 17th, 2002, 10:39 PM
Just as well Mrs Court does not live in Sydney where she would currently be confronted by rows and rows of "Happy Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras" banners on all the main streets in the centre of the city (proudly sponsored by Qantas!).

She should just mind her own business. I am sure many people disagree with allowing people to raise children in narrow-minded, sexist, homophobic, fundamentalist homes too ;)

Scotso
Feb 17th, 2002, 11:04 PM
Well, I don't love being gay... frankly, I hate it. But, it's not like I have any choice in the matter. And as far as Court is concerned, I have nothing against her personally, but she can shove her ignorant opinions up her arse.

SeReNa
Feb 17th, 2002, 11:14 PM
Homosexuality a sin? Just call me a sinner.

What a load of trash. I don't think it is because of the time she grew up that she believes this. My grandmother is a lot older than her and in her day she had many gay friends and we often talk about what they used to do. She doesnt care she wants me to do whatever makes me happy. I wouldnt be happy suppressing my feelings for the rest of my life. If homosexuality was a sin then why would god make people attracted to the same sex? I find it hard to believe any ramblings in the bible considering it has been over time added and interpretted by people wanting it to express their opinions as the words of god. Margaret look at your sin before you judge others. There are a lot greater sins in this world than loving somebody :rolleyes:

Beige
Feb 18th, 2002, 10:24 AM
Yawn.

http://salacious.de/Smiliez/sonstiges/schlafen/schlafen193.gif

God forbid that Court has any gay relatives. Unclench, Margaret, unclench.

Messenger
Feb 18th, 2002, 12:37 PM
The thing about this issue that I really don't understand is that this is not a debate about homosexuality, it's a political issue about discrimination.

Margaret Court and her supporters are so anti-gay that they are fighting against this new law that grants equal rights! A law making homosexuality illegal isn't that far off.

irma
Feb 18th, 2002, 12:59 PM
and the worst thing is these people do it in the name of God! :(

AaronJoyB
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:05 PM
she is so stupid!
i hate her way to speak
she is not better then gays

sartrista7
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:18 PM
Margaret Court needs some good female loving. Although I'm not sure if you could find anyone willing :rolleyes:

Really, homophobic comments like this don't bother me. I can't help others' stupidity.

galadriel
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:27 PM
Did she really think that gay people are sinners ? I'm sad, some people will never learn.I think I'm more normal as this stupid Mrs. Court.

timmbo
Feb 18th, 2002, 01:35 PM
She says she sees families destroyed. Well I think that she should probably look at her own sport. Isnt it true that Jim Pierce hit his daughter Mary, and look at all the tennis dads of the world. They are str8. But I guess that she doesnt see how that could destroy a family :rolleyes:

I think that its a shame that someone who has traveled the world and experienced so many things is so narrow minded in her thinking. Some of the best parents in the world that I know are gay.

Jakeev
Feb 18th, 2002, 07:48 PM
I think some people are missing the point here. Margaret does not have to agree about our lifestyle and she has every right to comment about it.

I keep read a lot of badmouthing against Margaret and I just think she should be entitled to believe what she should believe.

Lisbeth
Feb 18th, 2002, 09:41 PM
Being allowed to believe what you like is one thing.

Campaigning to make what you believe law so that everybody else has to do it too is what makes Court and her ilk so unreasonable.

Celeste
Feb 18th, 2002, 11:31 PM
Margaret apparently hasn't taken a dick in some time. She's intense about her beliefs and is willing to fight for them in public, you have to give her that as much as you might gag on what her beliefs are. There are many who believe the same things but are too chicken shit to make them public (is this good or bad, lol). Though, there are certaintly greater causes in the world than what she's after.

Sometimes people forget that top tennis players are not always the most intellectual or the most educated. She was great at tennis, one of the best ever, and she excelled in the sport for a very long time with many competent foes. That is undeniable. But it doesn't make her a saint or perfect. Am I actually defending this bitch, lol?

apoet29
Feb 18th, 2002, 11:43 PM
I agree with Celeste and Number1Kim,

I firmly believe in free speech and I do believe that Court has the right to speak her mind. After all, in any argument, there are at least two sides that need to be heard.

However, I disagree with Court using her celebrity to make an active campaign against homosexuality. The problem with celebrities taking stands, such as Court has done, is that groups that oppose homosexuality will jump on Court's bandwagon and as a result, receive more press than they deserve. The press is always after a good story and when a celebrity, such as Court, is attached; the story will receive front page news. Anyone who spouts homophobia, racism, sexism and etc should not receive free publicity that will inflame already divisive issues. That is why I have a problem with Court's decision to speak out against homosexuals.

Celeste
Feb 18th, 2002, 11:57 PM
But my question is, is Court really that big a deal anymore? I'm not from Australia, but at least from someone in the United States, no one here really knows who she is. It's quite possible it's a different story Down Under, where this controversy is brewing. But there is much more press at least up here about Evonne Goolagong, so I have to assume (perhaps wrongfully) that Court's not that big a deal down there either and that Evonne gets more press, or at least the significant "past tennis players" press. To the informed tennis fan, Court's been spouting this rhetoric for at least 12 years, this post is a little outdated.

I wonder, though, whether other "greats" of the game have similar if not identical beliefs but choose to keep them quiet to avoid becoming Anita Bryant, losing TV deals, or creating any tarnishment of their records. There are several who might fit this category, and everyone knows who I mean, past and present. Margaret is at least gutsier than they are, for good or for bad.

Lisbeth
Feb 19th, 2002, 02:31 AM
Celeste, the answer to your question is no, she's not really that big a deal anymore. I'm not from Western Australia but frankly I doubt whether what Margaret Court says would influence what the state parliament decides very much.

However on the other hand she (or the directors of her cause at any rate) make sure she is always introduced as "most successful female tennis player ever" or "winner of 11 Australian Opens" or some such thing so that gullible people THINK she is important and pay attention in a way which they might not if the speaker was Betty Bloggs of no claim to fame. So she sure exploits whatever relevance she still has!

Dawn Marie
Feb 19th, 2002, 07:42 AM
I dislike people like M. Court because instead of being FULLFILLED and GLORIOUSLY HAPPY (LIVING)there religious beliefs, they are instead so unhappy and concerned with other people's live's who are living a different lifestyle then them.

I MEAN THIS SKANK HAS A RELIGION THAT IS OBVIOUSLY NOT DOING A DAMN THING FOR HER IF SHE IS SO CONCERNED ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE'S LIFESTYLES. WORRY ABOUT YOUR OWN BACKYARD MARGIE.

And saddly enough their are billions of idiots and so called religious people just like her.

c2
Feb 20th, 2002, 06:21 PM
I'm sorry to hear that Scotso.. I used to dislike it as well but now I've really grown to love myself :) -- not in an arrogant way but in a way that just accepts me the way I AM. It has lead me not only to accept myself, but to accept and not judge others as well. I am sorry, because you sound unhappy :sad:

So my journey is about educating others that being gay is like eye color... you are born with it. You can hide it, you can deny it, you can even pretend you're not.. .but you CANNOT change it. Believe me, I tried!! :p

The thing that concerns me about this has been identified by many posters.. these kinds of statements make people feel isolated and hated, and that can lead to suicide. I think Margaret Court should realize that, and watch what she says. :mad:

c2
Feb 20th, 2002, 06:26 PM
Jakeev, I'm surprised @ you! We've always agreed before and no arguments -- everyone is entitled to their opinion. But she is BROADCASTING her opinion and using her celebrity in an effort to discriminate against lesbians and gay men! That is a whole lot worse than just "having an opinion!" :confused:

G-Ha
Feb 20th, 2002, 09:03 PM
I have no problem with people having their own opinions (regardless of how much I may dislike or disagree with them) and even voicing those opinions publicly. But the problem I have with Margaret's statements is that they are illogical and have no basis in fact.

She states, "It is not right for a child to be raised in an environment like that where it will likely also turn out to be gay. I see families being destroyed." First, this statement begs the question, exactly how many same sex couples and families does she even know personally? I'd venture to say a grand total of about zero! Second, and more importantly this statement is not only silly, but has no actual basis in fact or reality. It is HETEROSEXUALS that are breeding and raising homosexuals. The VAST MAJORITY of homosexuals grow up in a "heterosexual environment". So while we're at it, why don't we ban heterosexuals from raising families since they are the ones responsible for all the homosexuals we see! She and the religious right need to give up this outdated, ridiculous argument and come up with something new and at least somewhat valid or accurate.

She also states, "What people do behind closed doors is their business but they shouldn't be allowed to parade their lifestyle in front of me in the street." I have news for Maggie, there is very little "parading" of the homosexual "lifestyle" as compared to all the parading of the heterosexual lifestyle. We are constantly bombarded and inundated with images of heterosexuality in print, TV and film. Why doesn't she have a problem with that "lifestyle" being paraded in front of her?

I just can't take people like Margaret seriously due to the hypocrisy and lack of any factual basis to any of their arguments.

BCP
Feb 20th, 2002, 10:22 PM
I agree wholoe heartedly with G-Ha, and prescribe to celeste's way of thinking!:)

Pureracket
Feb 21st, 2002, 12:14 AM
*Clocker and friends removes Margaret Court's picture from the centre of their Friday night circle jerks*

c2
Feb 21st, 2002, 07:48 PM
clocker's bein' naughty... clocker's bein naughty

Rollo
Feb 21st, 2002, 09:21 PM
Funny post Celeste:) Margaret is wrong IMO, but I had a question--

Celeste wrote:

I wonder, though, whether other "greats" of the game have similar if not identical if not identical beliefs but choose to keep them quiet to avoid becoming Anita Bryant, losing TV deals,or creating any tarnishment of their records. There are several who might fit this category, and everyone knows who I mean, past and present.


Sorry Celeste, I'm not a mind reader. Who do you have in mind? I can tell you for a fact 3 past champs that are NOT homophobic-Chris Evert, Tracy Austin and Pam Shriver:)

One of the most bitter rivalries ever had overtones of homophobia, that was Helen Wills and Helen Jacobs in the 1930's. Jacobs never came out of the closet, but it was well known she was lesbian. When she recently died, her obituary
mentioned her partner.

Well in those days lesbianism just wasn't talked about. The closest the press came was "Jacobs does not have any male suitors". She was a real pioneer, the first tennis player to wear shorts:)
with a heart of gold. Crowds always loved "little Helen" As the #2, she and "Big Helen", were sure to dislike each other, but the story goes that when Wills found out Jacobs was lesbian she thought Helen disgusting. Another version has Jacobs making a pass at Wills and being rejected.

Their most famous match was when "Little Helen" finally won, in the 1933 US finals. Wills defaulted while down 0-3 in the third. Some say she was in too much pain to continue-others that she just couldn't bear losing to her most bitter enemy. When Wills walked to the chair and put on her sweater to leave(without saying a word to Jacobs)Jacobs put her hand on Wills' shoulder and asked what was wrong. Again there are different takes on what happened. Wills either hissed at Jacobs "don't touch me", brushed off her hand, or just said she couldn't go on. Wills was booed off court.

They only played two more matches, both Wimbledon finals. In the 1935 final jacobs had a match point and blew it on a smash that hit the grass and bounced too low. The last final(1938) saw Jacobs tear her achilles heal at 4-5. Unlike Wills in 1933, Jacobs played out the match in obvious pain, giving Wills the "full" win denied her in 1933. Wills displayed not one emotion the whole match, and when she won her 8th Wimbledon(a record until Navratilova)she was greeted with almost total silence. They never met again on court or in person.

Odd indeeed is the story of the two Helens-who had at different times the same coach and had even lived in the same house! Their fans fought as much as any on the boards today, and part of their "feud" was surely the sexual differences between them.

Sorry if this is long,boring, and off topic:o

Pureracket
Feb 21st, 2002, 09:24 PM
;)

moon
Feb 21st, 2002, 09:26 PM
interesting stuff Rollo.
Ted Tinling talked about Big Helen and Little Helen in his book Love & Faults, but I'm not sure if he talked about that part of their rivalry. ;) Maybe I'll have to re-read it.

Pureracket
Feb 21st, 2002, 09:33 PM
The Wills/Jacobs story is sounds a little like the Evert-Lloyd-Evert-Mill-Evert/Navratilova story.

c2
Feb 22nd, 2002, 05:19 PM
whoa - hold up! Are you saying Martina made a pass at Chrissie? Or the other way around? It's the feminine ones you have to watch out for ;)

Pureracket
Feb 23rd, 2002, 01:31 AM
c2,
Now you know the truth. The next time you go to a video store, go to the adult section and rent the "Real Chrissie/Martina Love Match" Series - quite interesting.

Zamboni
Feb 23rd, 2002, 02:21 PM
It's not right for a kid to grow up in a homosexual envirement?
One of my friends lives with her dad, who is married to a man. First after her parents divorced she lived with her mom, but she was very unhappy there, her mom ruined her life. So she went to live with her father and his boyfriend (now husband). She's happy there. They take well care of her, etc.
So now Margeret is saying that it would have been better for my friend to live with her mother? Yeah, right! :rolleyes:

People can have their opinions as long as they're not hurting other people, and Margaret is clearly hurting people. So she should shut up :fiery:

Zummi
Feb 23rd, 2002, 11:40 PM
Helen Wills once talked about how she admired Martina Navratilova and enjoyed watching her play. I seriously doubt she was homophobic in any way.

And I've never read anything about Helen Jacobs making a pass at Helen Wills. What is the source of this story? A Magazine? Book? Newspaper? Imagination?

Rollo
Feb 24th, 2002, 12:57 AM
Court has often expressed admiration of Navratilova's game. Does that make her any less homophobic?

BTW, I didn't say Jacobs made a pass at Wills. I said it was one version of many stories about these two. Given the times, it's far more likely that Wills may have misinterpreted Jacobs intentions. Even today a straight person who knows someone else is gay often thinks(for no good reason) that the gay perso is making a pass at them. What do you call that? I'd call it homophobia, and to some extent MOST people in the world are.
Again, given the times and Wills' conservative character, it would be no great shock that she was somewhat homophobic.
It was one possible explanation(among many) for the intense dislike the "Two Helens" shared.

Sources


Try Ted Tinling for starters. In Love and Faults. Ted knew both personally. Page 124-5.

"Fate, coincidence, chance, call it what you will, the story of two young girls with the same first name, who were reared on the same street, were educated at the same school and college, were coached by the same man. who lived, at different times, in the same house...is one of the strangest of all tennis sagas.

Outside their tennis, however, Helen Wills and Helen Jacobs, of Berkely, Claifornia, had nothing in common. On or off th ecourt they exchanged only a few dozen words in 15 years...

The fact that Helen Wills ruled the circuit unchallenged was accepted by all the girls except Helen Jacobs and her refusal to pay homage to Queen Wills lent credibilty to a picture of antagonism.

There were also dark rumours of religious differences and differences in sexual preferences. In the 20's such things were not publicly referred to....."

If you want more detail Zummi, then I'd suggest the only bio on Helen Wills-"The Goddess and the American Girl". Page 340.

Happy reading:wavey:

Whatever the cause-the "feud" was real. During the 1930 Wightman Cup at Wimbledon, Jacobs put her things in Wills private dressing room(only the Ladies champ had a private room) temporarily during a practice. Wills tossed all her belongings right out the second story window!:eek:

Zummi
Feb 24th, 2002, 02:43 AM
Court said she admired Martina's game? When did she say this? 1975? Lots of people admired her game back then. If you have a more recent quote - preferably post-1990, that would be appreciated. Last I heard, Court thought Martina was a bad role model for aspiring tennis players.

Helen Wills was quoted as saying one thing she liked about Martina was that she "pumped iron" and was in such good physical shape.

I know that Helen Wills & Helen Jacobs couldn't stand each other. Everyone knows that. I asked for the source of those "versions" of the Helen-making-a-pass-at-Helen rigmarole. Nothing in Tinling's book nor Engelmann's book alluded to that story.

Rollo
Feb 25th, 2002, 04:11 PM
How about saying Martina was a nice person and great player THE DAY she made her famous commnents Zummi?

Margaret Court Rips Navratilova as a Role Model
The Los Angeles Times; Los Angeles, Calif.; Jul 12, 1990;


Dateline:
PERTH, Australia

Wimbledon champion Martina Navratilova is a poor role model for young tennis players because she is a homosexual, says retired champion Margaret Court of Australia.
Court, a winner of 25 Grand Slam titles, three at Wimbledon, said in interviews that Navratilova's admitted homosexuality is a bad
example for younger players.

"(Navratilova) is a great player, but I'd like to see somebody at the top to whom the younger players can look up to," said Court, a
born-again Christian who lives in Perth. "It is very sad for children to be exposed to (homosexuality).

"Martina is a nice person. Her life has just gone astray."

Peter Johnson, who represents Navratilova for International Management Group, said she will have no comment on the story.

Court, 47, said some players have been led into homosexuality by other players, but did not name them. She said she believes
Navratilova was influenced into a lesbian lifestyle during her early years on the pro tour.

Karen Schwartz, deputy director of the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation in New York, called Court's statements "totally
ridiculous."

"Underlying her statements is a complete ignorance of homosexuality," Schwartz said. "You don't catch it.

"Winning Wimbledon a record nine times qualifies you as a role model. That is the fundamental qualification. The rest has very little
to do with it."

c2
Feb 25th, 2002, 06:49 PM
hee hee clocker... I'll check it out ;)

c2
Feb 25th, 2002, 06:50 PM
:fiery: :fiery: :mad: :mad: :fiery: :fiery:
oh and grrrrr! Margaret Court is an idiot

Zummi
Feb 26th, 2002, 01:54 AM
Thank you for posting the article, Rollo. I'm still waiting on where you got that version of the story re: Helen Jacobs making a pass at Helen Wills...

LucasArg
Feb 26th, 2002, 03:02 AM
WHO CARES WHAT MARGARET SAYS????????????????????

I DON'T:cool:

Rollo
Feb 26th, 2002, 10:49 AM
You have the page Zummi. Friends reported that Wills and Jacobs had had a conversation "full of double entendres" from Jacobs, that was Engelmann's way of putting it, and Wills was "enraged and refused to ever be alone again with Jacobs". Engelmann was

A. Reporting hearsay
B. Getting it second(or even thirdhand)
C. Hearing it from different sources.
D. The Principals(Wills and Jacobs) were still alive when the book
came out.

Add it all up and subtlety(rather than a bald statement like "some say Wills thought Jacobs made a pass at her") is required to "get it". I doubt Wills was supposedly upset by an offhand joke Zummi-read between the lines a bit.

Zummi
Feb 27th, 2002, 03:32 AM
One can come up with lots of different assumptions if you choose to "read between the lines." I think it's best to avoid tarnishing people's reputations with unfounded and unproven gossip. Helen Jacobs & Helen Wills are both respectable champions and it is wrong to spoil their good names by alluding to them being guilty of improper behavior or holding bigoted opinions. That's all I have to say about that.

skanky~skanketta
Aug 9th, 2003, 03:43 PM
is homosexuality all about the environment?i seriously dont think so cuz i know a gay couple who have a son who is straight.

and isnt homosexuality in the genes?somethign like gay guys being XXY?i know this cuz research was done and XYY is possible....most criminals are XYY.

skanky~skanketta
Aug 9th, 2003, 03:43 PM
as for margeret court, isnt this old hag dead yet?

Kart
Aug 9th, 2003, 03:48 PM
and isnt homosexuality in the genes?somethign like gay guys being XXY?i know this cuz research was done and XYY is possible....most criminals are XYY.

Er, no.

All guys are XY.

XXY (Kleinfelters syndrome) and XYY are extremely rare conditions.

There's an old thread in the non-tennis forum about theories of the origins of homosexuality if you're interested.

skanky~skanketta
Aug 9th, 2003, 03:50 PM
so, it IS the environment that makes a person gay?thats what confuses me.

Cybelle Darkholme
Aug 9th, 2003, 03:54 PM
But you know what - people who think like that - its THEIR LOSS. And its THEIR PROBLEM.

People like that, let homophobia rule their life to the point that they try to set out on some personaly crusadae against it.

Its quite sad and pathetic really.

But just remember, its their problem :) Its only uour if u let it be :)

But is not just their problem when they try to change lesgilation against gays and lesbians or enact new laws to discriminate against them. People like her are scary and need to be challenged whenever possible.

GoDominique
Aug 9th, 2003, 03:57 PM
Just in case you didn't notice: This thread is OLD.

Cybelle Darkholme
Aug 9th, 2003, 03:57 PM
so, it IS the environment that makes a person gay?thats what confuses me.

considering that almost all gay people are raised by straight people one would think that the environment, if it played any part at all which I believe it doesn't, would produce a steady stream of straight people.

This is why people like court look like idiots. If growing up with straight parents didn't make you straight then why in the hell would growing up with gay parents make you gay? IF at any thing it would make you open minded.

My brother and his partner are trying to adopt a baby and they are just hitting a brick wall after brick wall. ITs to the point they want me or my sister to have the baby for them. Of course that is a big issue as well because after carrying a life for nine months I'm supposed to hand it over? I dont know about that.

Cybelle Darkholme
Aug 9th, 2003, 04:03 PM
why are people bumping old threads?

TonyP
Aug 9th, 2003, 04:24 PM
While I do NOT agree with her views on homosexuality, the posters on this board must remember that her's are the views of many organized religions. Pope John Paul II just reiterated that same stand and he heads the world's largest Christian faith.

President Bush here in America appears on the verge of supporting a federal law banning gay marriage (personally, I have never agreed with anything Bush has ever done, but that's another story.)

So, what I am saying is that you may be deluding yourselves if you think Court is a single voice cryingin the wilderness.

Personally, I think everyone should be allowed to make their own decisions on sexual orientation, just as long as they have reached the age of consent and are mature enough to make that decision.

raquel
Aug 9th, 2003, 04:38 PM
I have lost a lot of respect for Margaret Court for saying Martina is not a good role model because she exposes children to homosexuality. I was brought up as a Catholic but I disagree with several issues. I think a woman has the right to choose whether to have an abortion or not, contraception is fine and gay people should be allowed to live without fear of redemption but I would still say I am a Catholic. I would respect Margaret Court a lot more if she placed Martina's achievements over her sexualty, but here commments here are pathetic.

TonyP
Aug 9th, 2003, 04:47 PM
There is no unanimous opinion on why some people are gay, while most people are not. Most scientists seem to think it is a combination of both genetic make up and environmental factors. That may be just code for "we don't know."

Messenger
Aug 9th, 2003, 04:48 PM
My god, I hardly even remember posting this. It seems so long ago. I remember being very disappointed in Margaret though, because before then I really admired her.

I guess this thread reminds me of how much I've grown too, because I wouldn't make an issue about it today. Not that I necessarily feel any different, it's just not worth getting angry about anymore.

CanIGetAWhat
Aug 9th, 2003, 05:02 PM
why are people bumping old threads?

Because fhkung a.k.a. serena_is_ugly thinks it's fun.