PDA

View Full Version : Israelis not allowed


PointBlank
Jan 23rd, 2004, 01:36 AM
I dont think it is right they wont allow Israelis to play certain Arab tournaments

I think Anna can because of the exempt list but no other Israelis and I would just be scared for Anna to go anyway because she could get killed by some wacko jacko there but still in the first place should they have the right to ban Israelis from there tournaments?

Martian Willow
Jan 23rd, 2004, 02:18 AM
I thought it was the country that banned them, not the tournament? But you're right anyway, they shouldn't have tournaments there but I don't think the WTA really has any principles.

rated_next
Jan 23rd, 2004, 02:20 AM
I don't think Anna nor Tzipora want to play in those tournaments anyway.

Volcana
Jan 23rd, 2004, 02:23 AM
Is this an issue of the two countries not having diplomatic relations?

For example, under US law, if there was a tournament in Cuba, no US player could participate. Of course, that's because of US, rather than Cuban law. Face it, some governments view Israel as a rogue state.

I also don't understand how being onthe exempt list would get AnnaSmash around a legal issue. If the country doesn't allow in Israelis, then being on the exempt list is meaningless.

There are some inconsistencies here.

Andrew.
Jan 23rd, 2004, 02:51 AM
You're right Volcana. If there is a tournament held in a country where Israeli citizens are not allowed, no WTA list will get them into that country. They just can't play there.

Hulet
Jan 23rd, 2004, 02:58 AM
Hey, guess what? Players from certain countries can't enter U.S. without being fingerprinted and without their pictures taken while players from other countries are allowed in without any hassle. What's more weird is that, if a certain players name resembles the list of unwanted people in the U.S., that player will not gain entry in the U.S. to play in the WTA sanctioned tournament. I don't know how the WTA lets such a discrimination of treatment amongst its players to continue.

Btw, this topic was discussed extensively (read to death) in the GM.

Volcana
Jan 23rd, 2004, 03:06 AM
Interestingly, there are quite a few countries with pronounced anti-Jewish bigotry that let Israelis in to play tennis tournaments. Oh for the means to see into people's hearts!

Calaer
Jan 23rd, 2004, 03:28 AM
Just out of curiousity, is Anna Smashnova Jewish? Not that I expect anyone to know...

PointBlank
Jan 23rd, 2004, 03:31 AM
Anna is Jewish thats why she left Belarus or USSR then

Calaer
Jan 23rd, 2004, 06:02 AM
I see, thanks.

Douggie
Jan 23rd, 2004, 06:05 AM
Hey, guess what? Players from certain countries can't enter U.S. without being fingerprinted and without their pictures taken while players from other countries are allowed in without any hassle. What's more weird is that, if a certain players name resembles the list of unwanted people in the U.S., that player will not gain entry in the U.S. to play in the WTA sanctioned tournament. I don't know how the WTA lets such a discrimination of treatment amongst its players to continue.

Btw, this topic was discussed extensively (read to death) in the GM.

Wow i never new that :( that is quite harsh and should not be that Discriminated among certain players

Rothes
Jan 23rd, 2004, 08:37 AM
No Anna P is not allowed to enter the tournaments at Doha or Dhabi, either is Tzipora, and yet it is because they are Jewish.

Politics should never be involved in sports. and yes your right I don't support Tournaments which show a racial inequality within the organization.

Calaer
Jan 23rd, 2004, 08:40 AM
Well this is what they should be writing tennis articles about. Interview Anna and ask her what she thinks of it all, that'd be a great read.

Martian Willow
Jan 23rd, 2004, 11:00 AM
Hey, guess what? Players from certain countries can't enter U.S. without being fingerprinted and without their pictures taken while players from other countries are allowed in without any hassle. What's more weird is that, if a certain players name resembles the list of unwanted people in the U.S., that player will not gain entry in the U.S. to play in the WTA sanctioned tournament. I don't know how the WTA lets such a discrimination of treatment amongst its players to continue.

Btw, this topic was discussed extensively (read to death) in the GM.

Could we have some names? Don't remember it being discussed before, sorry.

paul_masterton
Jan 23rd, 2004, 11:04 AM
its probably also got to do with their safety, and im sure tzipi and anna would feel a bit uncomfortable playing in those places anyway.

and as someone said, if cuba ever held an event, us players would not be allowed to compete

alexusjonesfan
Jan 23rd, 2004, 11:09 AM
No Anna P is not allowed to enter the tournaments at Doha or Dhabi, either is Tzipora, and yet it is because they are Jewish.

Politics should never be involved in sports. and yes your right I don't support Tournaments which show a racial inequality within the organization.
Well, the tournament can't do anything if such a policy comes from the government, and tournaments are sold by the WTA to the highest bidder so if you can pay for it, you deserve it. Btw, does this work in reverse too? Are players of Arab origin permitted to play in Israeli tournaments? And also, this peculiarity in touranament entry is made pronounced by virtue of the Arab region now having two Tier II's. I'm sure there are many other cases elsewhere (like Volcana mentioned about US citizens not playing in Cuba) which go unmentioned because of a lack of a high profile.

Martian Willow
Jan 23rd, 2004, 11:16 AM
I don't think Cuba is the same cos that's nothing to do with them. And you have to draw the line somewhere: what about a tournament in Nazi Germany excluding Jews, or a tournament in apartheid South Africa excluding black players?

*JR*
Jan 23rd, 2004, 11:16 AM
Of course many of you remember that last year Noga got a long and thoughtful answer published by Jon Wertheim on this. His point was essentially that if a country or event had such rules, who could stop them, BUT: neither the WTA, ATP, or ITF should award ANY points (or count it towards Gold Exempt obligations) which position I totally agree with. (The South Africa sports boycott of the 1980's is a different case, as those were sanctions AGAINST discrimination enacted by the UN).

alexusjonesfan
Jan 23rd, 2004, 11:33 AM
I don't think Cuba is the same cos that's nothing to do with them. And you have to draw the line somewhere: what about a tournament in Nazi Germany excluding Jews, or a tournament in apartheid South Africa excluding black players?
Point taken, but the end result is the same. If you're only going to look at the motivations of the decisions, then IMHO it's dangerous to compare the policy of certain Middle-Eastern countries with that of Nazi Germany (a spirit of (misguided?)solidarity vs. master race philosophy). The same kind of uproar happened when Iran refused aid from Israel.

Does anyone actually have specifics on the rights of Jewish travelers in Middle Eastern countries? Might be able to shed some light on this oft-discussed topic. ;)

Rothes
Jan 23rd, 2004, 11:51 AM
Anyone who is Jewish or has the Jewish Passport Stamp in their Passport is not permitted and will not be allowed to enter most Arab Countries, except Egypt, and Maybe Jordan but Im not to sure, If you are going to Israel but also want to see Arab Countries, You obtain a special Visa/ A14?? Card which thus doesn't need a Customes Approval Stamp on your passport, and yes Arab Girls and Boys are allowed to play in Israel (as far as I know) Israel doesn't have those restrictions, I think even a Hebron Tennis Team played Herzil'ah (sp) and from what I can remember I think Hebron is in the West Bank :)

alexusjonesfan
Jan 23rd, 2004, 12:03 PM
Ah ok. Thanks Rothes ;)

Infiniti2001
Jan 23rd, 2004, 03:06 PM
I personally believe that any country that cannot produce wild cards should not be allowed to host any tournament :fiery: Dubai is promoted as this big tourist destination--- it's not as bad as Saudi Arabia , but a hell of a lot worse than Iraq under Saddam as far as women are concerned and it has just about as good a record on human rights.
The shieks put up the money and the WTA send their girls to play in this country where women are not allowed to wear tennis clothes- or even play tennis UGH :fiery: :o :mad: :tape:

alexusjonesfan
Jan 23rd, 2004, 04:17 PM
I personally believe that any country that cannot produce wild cards should not be allowed to host any tournament :fiery: Dubai is promoted as this big tourist destination--- it's not as bad as Saudi Arabia , but a hell of a lot worse than Iraq under Saddam as far as women are concerned and it has just about as good a record on human rights.
The shieks put up the money and the WTA send their girls to play in this country where women are not allowed to wear tennis clothes- or even play tennis UGH :fiery: :o :mad: :tape:
I think you might be a little mistaken there. Qatar and the UAE (especially Dubai) are probably the two most liberal and progressive Mid-East Arab states. Unlike many other Arab countries, foreigners can own property in Dubai. Qatar gives full rights to women and women can even serve in parliament. I actually learned to play tennis in Qatar and there were no restrictions on who could join (half of my training-mates were girls). On a national level the countries spend much more money on developing people in athletics, soccer and other olympic sports, so there isn't a lot of support for local tennis. But if there was ever an opportunity for women to take up the sport of tennis in the Gulf States, they'd be hard pressed to find places better and more open than both Qatar and Dubai.

Infiniti2001
Jan 23rd, 2004, 04:32 PM
So why do the women who want to attend the matches need to be accompanied by a male relative in Dubai ??
:shrug:

alexusjonesfan
Jan 23rd, 2004, 04:45 PM
So why do the women who want to attend the matches need to be accompanied by a male relative in Dubai ??
:shrug:
They don't. At least they shouldn't :confused:. They don't in Qatar, but I'd expect no less in Dubai :shrug:

*JR*
Jan 23rd, 2004, 05:35 PM
I think that in his answer to Noga re. Doha, Wertheim said that Dubai was far more exclusionary re. Israeli visitors (athletes or otherwise). BTW, I think the players should stick together on this, as in: "If any of us can't go, none of us are going".

venusfan
Jan 23rd, 2004, 05:44 PM
I do not tolerate discrimination even if I don't care about a player.. however I don't think the WTA or any sporting organization should stange and event in a country that discriminate or banned a group of people just because of race or faith.

*JR*
Jan 23rd, 2004, 05:52 PM
I do not tolerate discrimination even if I don't care about a player.. however I don't think the WTA or any sporting organization should stange and event in a country that discriminate or banned a group of people just because of race or faith.
The WTA only sanctions events, various companies stage them. Wertheim's (correct, IMO) point was the WTA (and ATP) shouldn't give any ranking points for the results.

Fedcup
Jan 23rd, 2004, 08:03 PM
I dont think it is right they wont allow Israelis to play certain Arab tournaments

I think Anna can because of the exempt list but no other Israelis and I would just be scared for Anna to go anyway because she could get killed by some wacko jacko there but still in the first place should they have the right to ban Israelis from there tournaments?
One question? Does Israel has the right to isolate a whole population, take land away and kill innocent people?

I hope Europe will follow this example and ban israelis from europe tournaments (ofcourse this will never hapen, long live economy).
The downside is that players like Anna will be the victim of the policie of their countrie.
But she won't be the first who was banned from internation tourneys

Infiniti2001
Jan 23rd, 2004, 08:07 PM
One question? Does Israel has the right to isolate a whole population, take land away and kill innocent people?

I hope Europe will follow this example and ban israelis from europe tournaments (ofcourse this will never hapen, long live economy).
The downside is that players like Anna will be the victim of the policie of their countrie.
But she won't be the first who was banned from internation tourneys


:rolleyes: :tape: :eek:

Fedcup
Jan 23rd, 2004, 08:11 PM
:rolleyes: :tape: :eek:
Yeah. And imagine if theirs a major tennis talent in palestina???? :rolleyes:
Does she got the right to play outside. NO. simply because israle will not allow het to go outside.

Time that people grow up. World is politics. Sport is part of the world so you can't rule politics out of sport.

It's a pity for Anna.

griffin
Jan 23rd, 2004, 08:21 PM
One question? Does Israel has the right to isolate a whole population, take land away and kill innocent people?

I hope Europe will follow this example and ban israelis from europe tournaments (ofcourse this will never hapen, long live economy).
The downside is that players like Anna will be the victim of the policie of their countrie.
But she won't be the first who was banned from internation tourneys

This is really not the right forum in which to debate the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, but lets just say that Israel is not the only country with problematic human rights issues. Consistent implementation of what you suggest would prevent half the world from traveling.

Players can choose to boycott tournaments for any reason they see fit, but the WTA has no business sanctioning (recognizing) a tournament if any of its eligible member players are barred from participating.
.

Fedcup
Jan 23rd, 2004, 08:28 PM
This is really not the right forum in which to debate the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, but lets just say that Israel is not the only country with problematic human rights issues. Consistent implementation of what you suggest would prevent half the world from traveling.

Players can choose to boycott tournaments for any reason they see fit, but the WTA has no business sanctioning (recognizing) a tournament if any of its eligible member players are barred from participating.
.
Ok you got a point here. I must admit that their a lot's of other countries too. and that it would be a real mess if wta starts to ban certain countries. But if poloitcs decide to do that I think wta has no choice to just follow. Look at what happened to south african athletes.

I just only felt angry when I read the discussion toppic (israelis nopt allowed). And then it's all about some arabic tourneys. Isn't that just normal they do?
Don't expect them to welcome israleeis with open arms after all those misery in the middle-east.

but indeed end off topic. This is way off the line. there are other forums to discuss this matter

antonella
Jan 23rd, 2004, 08:33 PM
One question? Does Israel has the right to isolate a whole population, take land away and kill innocent people? I hope Europe will follow this example and ban israelis from europe tournaments (ofcourse this will never hapen, long live economy). The downside is that players like Anna will be the victim of the policie of their countrie. But she won't be the first who was banned from internation tourneys

Sports and politics really don't mix, isn't the entire purpose of sports to sublimate war and International conflict anyway?? It would be terrible:fiery: :fiery: to eventually have sporting events as extentions of state politics, as fools are always trying to do, this would reduce sports to propoganda.. a mere puppet show or Kabuki theatre and who wants that. After all hasn't politics been reduced to a puppet show??

griffin
Jan 23rd, 2004, 08:33 PM
No, the WTA has no control over politics, but they do have control over where tournaments get hosted. Like I said the last time this came up - soveriegn nations have an absolute right to set whatever immigration policy they see fit. That doesn't mean the WTA or any other sports organization should allow tournaments in places that aren't available to all their players. That's not fair or ethica (imo) on the WTA's part and it puts those players at a real disadvantage in terms of earning rankings points.

Fedcup
Jan 23rd, 2004, 08:36 PM
Yeah but it the political world says "whe ban that countrie from international sports event" it's end of story. WTA will follow. They simply have no choice. The pressure would be too big.

Ps. Maybe a reason why Jelena Dokic choiced to play for Australia.

Martian Willow
Jan 23rd, 2004, 08:36 PM
It's just a good thing there aren't any countries that bar blond Russians.

oren987
Jan 23rd, 2004, 08:36 PM
One question? Does Israel has the right to isolate a whole population, take land away and kill innocent people?

I hope Europe will follow this example and ban israelis from europe tournaments (ofcourse this will never hapen, long live economy).
The downside is that players like Anna will be the victim of the policie of their countrie.
But she won't be the first who was banned from internation tourneys
What are you talking abote?? Read some history!!!
In 1948 UN gave Israel a counrty and also to the Palestinian
1948, the Palestinian started a war, to get Israel land! Isarel won
1952, the Palestinian started a war again. Israel won
1958 again
1962 again
1968 again

Israel is just trying to diffend her selp. We do want peace like everybudy else in the world.
So just read the history before you write stupid things...

Fedcup
Jan 23rd, 2004, 08:42 PM
What are you talking abote?? Read some history!!!
In 1948 UN gave Israel a counrty and also to the Palestinian
1948, the Palestinian started a war, to get Israel land! Isarel won
1952, the Palestinian started a war again. Israel won
1958 again
1962 again
1968 again

Israel is just trying to diffend her selp. We do want peace like everybudy else in the world.
So just read the history before you write stupid things...
That's just one-sided look. you're too involved. Here in Europe news is more neutral and we got another view on that matter. And don't say we don't know history.
This problem simply doesn't began on 1948. It was way before that.
And I'm sick of israellis telling they have to defend themselves. Israelli is a big "milatary" power in the world 'maybe second behind the USA). They got the key in their hands (and maybe should) to make peace. They could place the first step. What's wrong with peace boy? It's possible.

But here we go again. This should be indeed be´ng discussed in other forums

PointBlank
Jan 23rd, 2004, 08:44 PM
What are you talking abote?? Read some history!!!
In 1948 UN gave Israel a counrty and also to the Palestinian
1948, the Palestinian started a war, to get Israel land! Isarel won
1952, the Palestinian started a war again. Israel won
1958 again
1962 again
1968 again

Israel is just trying to diffend her selp. We do want peace like everybudy else in the world.
So just read the history before you write stupid things...
:clap2:

oren987
Jan 23rd, 2004, 09:05 PM
That's just one-sided look. you're too involved. Here in Europe news is more neutral and we got another view on that matter. And don't say we don't know history.
This problem simply doesn't began on 1948. It was way before that.
And I'm sick of israellis telling they have to defend themselves. Israelli is a big "milatary" power in the world 'maybe second behind the USA). They got the key in their hands (and maybe should) to make peace. They could place the first step. What's wrong with peace boy? It's possible.

But here we go again. This should be indeed be´ng discussed in other forums
I saw what was writing down in Europe news. And i tell you that no one realy knows what is going on around the Israeli and the Palestinian.
I live in Israel. I talk to Palestinian. They told me more then once that they don't whan't us to be here (in Israel).
Every one of the Israely Leaders tryed to do peace, and nothing!!
don't believe everything that you read in the news Papers.
You realy don't know what is going on here (like most of the world!!)

Volcana
Jan 23rd, 2004, 10:10 PM
Could we have some names? Don't remember it being discussed before, sorry.I can't name names, but Pretender occupying the office of president of the United States has had laws passed that requiring fingerprinting of everyone traveling from certain countries. Make that MOST countries.

It's certainly true that it's a lot harder to get into the USA now if you're of Middle Eastern descent and not Jewish. That would be a parallel to the Dubai/Doha situation, if those countries consider Israel a threat. It would be useful to know if she couldn't enter the country because she's Israeli, or because she's Jewish. Are there any American Jews or European Jews inthe top 100, and do THEY play Doha or Dubai.

Being anti-Israel is politics

Being anti-Jewish is bigotry

I know a lot of the world is angry at the USA right now, but I don't feel those people are angry at ME. Most people don't hate Americans, they hate the actions carried out by the American government.

Hating all American might be understandable, but its still unreasoning hatred. All hating the more violent and misguided actions of the US government requires is empathy for the suffering of others.

Volcana
Jan 23rd, 2004, 10:17 PM
...Israel doesn't have those restrictions...Unless you're a Palestinian living on the wrong side of the apratheid wall.

Are there any non-Israeli Jews on tour, and do THEY play those tournaments? If an American Jew enters one of those tournaments, I expect the immigration policies would rather well focus on the word 'American'.

*
*
*

I gone off and done some research. The countries in question are Qatar and the United Arab Emirates and they do not bar Jews, they bar Israelis. There are a number of American Jews stationed in those countries.

Also, for laughs, they can always hide behind this UN resolution. (http://www.anc.org.za/un/unsports.htm)

Having said all that, where are the Jews going to go? Everywhere they've ever settled they've been attacked, except South Africa (and frankly, being such strong allies of South Africa is one of the things that drove apart American Jews and American Blacks.) I know if we American Blacks got our own country we'd be no more willing to give it up than the Israelis are, no matter how we acquired it.

Volcana
Jan 23rd, 2004, 10:46 PM
What are you talking abote?? Read some history!!!
In 1948 UN gave Israel a counrty and also to the Palestinian
1948, the Palestinian started a war, to get Israel land! Isarel won
1952, the Palestinian started a war again. Israel won
1958 again
1962 again
1968 again

Israel is just trying to diffend her selp. We do want peace like everybudy else in the world.
So just read the history before you write stupid things...I very much hope what you wrote is ignorance, and not simply out right lies. But given that line about reading history, I kinda figure you're lying deliberately.

In 1948, a civil war broke out in Palestine over the UN partition. That cannot be called an attack on Israel by Palestine. That was a large group of people fighting being involuntarily displaced from their homes. (The Intafada comes MUCH closer to meeting any military or legal definition of an attack)

OTHER Arab coutnries attacked Israel in 1948, but the Palestinians were right where the always had been fighting for their homes.

In 1952, Israel was not attacked by anyone, and certainly not by Palestine, what they'd left of it. In fact, it was a pretty good year for Israel. Tthey signed the reperations agreement with Germany that year.

In 1958, Israel was again not under attack, though diplomatic relations with most of its neighbors were non-existent.

IN 1962, wow, is this a trend? Again, NO ATTACK. Did you have ANY idea what you were taking about when you posted?

In the Six-Day War in 1967, Israel actually attacked first, though news reports suggest the Arabs were massing to atttack.

1968 - 'The War of Attrition'. A three year exchange of artillery fire along the border. Between Isral on one side, and Egypt and Jordan on the other. It was much like India and Pakistan now. Palestine has long since ceased to exist, and it's people are refugees. 'Palestine' certainly did not attack Israel.

1973 - The Yom Kippur War. Egypt and Syria attacked Israel.

Here are a couple websites which you'll agree are hardly anti-Israel. You'll notice that my facts match all their facts.

<A href="http://www.israel.org/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00ul0#1952]Reference A[/URL]</p><p style="margin:0px"> </p><p style="margin:0px">[URL="http://www.multied.com/Israel/1948WarofIndependance.html" target=_blank>Reference B

In closing, to quote YOU, "just read the history before you write stupid things."