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Mironia
Jan 22nd, 2004, 02:00 PM
Gilbert gender gaffe
Mark Stevens
23jan04

RESPECTED coach Brad Gilbert says women's world No. 1 Justine Henin-Hardenne could not beat the 1000th best man.

Gilbert, former coach of Andre Agassi and current mentor to Andy Roddick, said the women didn't have the physical attributes to trouble the male players.
"There's well over 1000 guys -- more -- who could beat her," Gilbert said.

"Justine Henin is a good little player, but she's about 5ft 5in (165cm) and about 125lb (57kg). She couldn't come close to beating one guy in the draw," he said.

Asked if Henin-Hardenne could take a game off world No. 1 Roddick, Gilbert said: "It's possible. She could hold serve."

Gilbert, who worked with Agassi for eight years, said the superstar veteran would be an extremely tough proposition for Henin-Hardenne.

"Andre's a good groundstroker. Andre would smoke her into submission," Gilbert said.

Gilbert, a former top-10 player, gave his opinions on sports radio station SEN when questioned about the strength of the women's game compared with the men's.

When contacted by the Herald Sun last night, Gilbert said he was reluctant to comment further on the women.

"I'm going to stick to the men's," Gilbert said.

"I got asked straight up, 'How many guys could she beat?' and it put me in a bad position. I wasn't quite thinking.

"They asked me and I said there's probably 1000 guys who could beat her. But that's not taking anything away from her that she's not a great player.

"I don't think she could beat anybody in the draw here, but that doesn't mean anything."

For the record, the 1000th-ranked player in the world is Italian 22-year-old Matteo Galli, who has career prizemoney of $2000.

Henin-Hardenne, 21, has earned almost $10 million.

Gilbert said it was like comparing women's basketball to men's basketball.

"To me, the women tennis players are the pre-eminent athletes in the world," he said.

"Serena (Williams) is an amazing player, but that doesn't mean she can go and beat guys. That's not really an indication or not that they deserve equal prizemoney or not . . . or anything else.

"There's just physical abilities involved. I think the women are great."

Gilbert said the last thing he wanted was to say the women's game "wasn't any good".

"I think the women's game has improved more, per say, over the last 20 years than the men's game," Gilbert said.

"But women's tennis is women's tennis . . . it's hard to compare."

tenn_ace
Jan 22nd, 2004, 02:04 PM
fail to find where he says that she sux... would you care to point?

also, wasn't it said about all women tennis players in general, not just JHH... why did you need such a misleading name of the topic? :rolleyes: :smash:

Cybelle Darkholme
Jan 22nd, 2004, 02:04 PM
Wait a second, who did patty beat last year? What was his ranking?

Brαm
Jan 22nd, 2004, 02:05 PM
You should not start a thread with a title like Brad Gilbert: Henin-Hardenne sucks when he doesn't even say "Henin-Hardenne sucks"!

He's right. Men's tennis, women's tennis. It's hard to compare! :)

tenn_ace
Jan 22nd, 2004, 02:07 PM
"They asked me and I said there's probably 1000 guys who could beat her. But that's not taking anything away from her that she's not a great player. "

My English is so-so... yours definitely sux.

fleemke³
Jan 22nd, 2004, 02:07 PM
Idd Bram there's no comparation!

Cybelle Darkholme
Jan 22nd, 2004, 02:08 PM
Face it the men are better. Its true but so what? He is right comparing it to women's basketball and mens basketball.

So What I want to know is how you all feel if our sport suddenly produced a Michelle Wie who can actually compete with the men? Should she only play wta events or should she be allowed to compete on the atp?

We have no such woman yet but maybe one day? In my mind a woman who could compete competively with the men would completely dominate the wta field more so than nav everett steff or monica.

will it ever happen?

Greenout
Jan 22nd, 2004, 02:10 PM
Is this a wind up? Is this a real article?

Brad Gilbert is the biggest Jackass in the world if this article is even half true.
WTF? Nobody can beat Andre in the WTA? No Kidding, idiot! I thought this
type of crappy baiting was done with. No female tennis player I can
name in the past 10 years has ever said they can beat a male player.

Brad Gilbert and Roddick deserve each other. Thank God..I don't live
in the USA anymore. This is just rubbish.

jenglisbe
Jan 22nd, 2004, 02:12 PM
The men are bigger and stronger and would thus win, but they are also better players in my opinion. Watching some of these rallies is amazing!! That Blake/Escude (i.e. not top 10 players right now) highlight reel was very entertaining! They had 1 point with about 6 amazing gets. The consistency is incredible.

I used to love the women's game more - and still love the personalities - but the men's game is much higher in terms of quality of play.

for-sure
Jan 22nd, 2004, 02:12 PM
The name of the topic pissed me off more than the article itself. So don't put words into people's mouths.
I don't understand why compare women to men. They are totally differently built emotionally and physically. Although the 1000th ranked man 'could' 'beat JHH' he is not (by far) a better tennis player. That is what Gilbert did not mention. I did not like his 'she could hold serve' comment' as if Roddick is the alpha and the omega of tennis *rolls eyes*
I find it Funny how tennis is the only sport that pits men and the women (you could just maybe include golf). In speed skating, swimming, track...no one bothers starting such pointless conversations. What do we gain by asking such questions?

Cybelle Darkholme
Jan 22nd, 2004, 02:15 PM
The men are bigger and stronger and would thus win, but they are also better players in my opinion. Watching some of these rallies is amazing!! That Blake/Escude (i.e. not top 10 players right now) highlight reel was very entertaining! They had 1 point with about 6 amazing gets. The consistency is incredible.

I used to love the women's game more - and still love the personalities - but the men's game is much higher in terms of quality of play.

This is true. So if you are a tennis fan and care about the sport and the quality of play why focus on womens tennis at all when the tennis played by the men is more exciting, more competitive and of a higher quality? Why shouldn't espn show men's tennis more than women's if its all around better?

I'm playing devils advocate. :devil:

Greenout
Jan 22nd, 2004, 02:15 PM
Men -vs- Women. It's just crappy logic. This is what's wrong with tennis.
Instead of being whiny, bratty, selfish about prize money- they should
bond together and realize that tennis is single sport. Tennis is competing
with other local, national and international sports for exposure etc..

Greenout
Jan 22nd, 2004, 02:17 PM
This is true. So if you are a tennis fan and care about the sport and the quality of play why focus on womens tennis at all when the tennis played by the men is more exciting, more competitive and of a higher quality? Why shouldn't espn show men's tennis more than women's if its all around better?

I'm playing devils advocate. :devil:


Well...are male actors better than female actors?

for-sure
Jan 22nd, 2004, 02:18 PM
The men are bigger and stronger and would thus win, but they are also better players in my opinion. Watching some of these rallies is amazing!! That Blake/Escude (i.e. not top 10 players right now) highlight reel was very entertaining! They had 1 point with about 6 amazing gets. The consistency is incredible.

I used to love the women's game more - and still love the personalities - but the men's game is much higher in terms of quality of play.

I think we are fed so much No.1 vs. No.345 that we forget that No.30 vs. No.35 could be, by far, more fun to watch. I also think that the hight no. of UFE comes from women's natural biological emotional sensitivity. I have, for example, never seen a man pull an Amelie or Hantuchova.

jenglisbe
Jan 22nd, 2004, 02:20 PM
Bovinasboyfriend - What do you mean you've never seen a man pull an Amelie or Hantuchova?? Rios and Safin are famous headcases - and tankers. Is that what you meant?

for-sure
Jan 22nd, 2004, 02:21 PM
In the WTA the game's marketing centers on STAR power rather than the tennis. the men do a better job of focusing on the tennis, probably because their players have very little star power. ;)

Greenout
Jan 22nd, 2004, 02:23 PM
I think we are fed so much No.1 vs. No.345 that we forget that No.30 vs. No.35 could be, by far, more fun to watch. I also think that the hight no. of UFE comes from women's natural biological emotional sensitivity. I have, for example, never seen a man pull an Amelie or Hantuchova.


Ok. A point;but it's a known fact that the reason there are young
teens like Maria playing at the AO 2004, and no one her age in
the mens draw is because girls mature quicker than men.

I have rarely see anybody pull what Verkerk did at Sydney in
the WTA? Your familiar with what he did, right? Stop playing
when he was losing and told the chair umpire. "I'm not feeling
well..I can't go on" and he dumped the match. I think the
WTA players are more responsible, and suck in loses or
bagels or whatever. Those ATP players that get humiliated
by Agassi..I hardly ever see them again much after that.
Obviously they're just not mentally strong enough to suck in
defeat.

for-sure
Jan 22nd, 2004, 02:24 PM
Also, sorry about all these posts...I don't feel like pressing edit...takes too long to load...

there are more Mary Pierce type players on the men's side. Players that are worthy of mention but are hanging in the lower ranks currently. Perhpas it's because of all the freak GS finalists and Semi-finalists....


*Mark
*Costa
*Greg
*Tim
*Verkerk
*Corretja
*Moya
*Kuertan
*Hewitt (ranked 17)
*Shalkin
*Thomas Johannson (spelling?)
*...

For the Women, the only non top 10 players with major News making ability are

*Mary P.
*Maria S.
*Hantuchova
*Dokic
*Anna

Ballbuster
Jan 22nd, 2004, 02:25 PM
I like the title of this thread

best best better
Jan 22nd, 2004, 02:27 PM
I just don't get what Brad Gilbert is trying to achieve with these comments. Male tennis players will always be better athletes than female tennis players. That does not (necessarily) meant that they are better tennis players, imo.

Old, old news. I don't begrude Gilbert saying what are essentially truths, but to bring this down to quality of play, and technique is feeble to say the least. I think most people watch tennis because they love the combination of all the things that go into making tennis players great - which includes athleticism. To say it includes this to the exclusion of everything else demeans everyone's intelligence - not least his own.

I actually kinda like Brad, and thinks he generally talks quite a bit of sense about things, and wish that copy-hungry sports editors would think up a new angle already.

for-sure
Jan 22nd, 2004, 02:28 PM
Ok. A point;but it's a known fact that the reason there are young
teens like Maria playing at the AO 2004, and no one her age in
the mens draw is because girls mature quicker than men.

I have rarely see anybody pull what Verkerk did at Sydney in
the WTA? Your familiar with what he did, right? Stop playing
when he was losing and told the chair umpire. "I'm not feeling
well..I can't go on" and he dumped the match. I think the
WTA players are more responsible, and suck in loses or
bagels or whatever. Those ATP players that get humiliated
by Agassi..I hardly ever see them again much after that.
Obviously they're just not mentally strong enough to suck in
defeat.

But when you get Federer Vs. Ferrero for example, you know that you will (to a probability of 85%, get a great match) If you place Justine vs. Amelie, you really don't know which Amelie will show up. Another example is Kim vs. Justine. Everyone in the top 6 on the women's side has the ability to beat one another regularly, the difference is mostly mental (ala Kim's 5-1 lead vs. Serena last year at the AUS)

G_Slammed
Jan 22nd, 2004, 02:31 PM
Leave him alone, he knows his women's tennis.

Serena (Williams) is an amazing player

Greenout
Jan 22nd, 2004, 02:31 PM
I just don't get what Brad Gilbert is trying to achieve with these comments. Male tennis players will always be better athletes than female tennis players. That does not (necessarily) meant that they are better tennis players, imo.

Old, old news. I don't begrude Gilbert saying what are essentially truths, but to bring this down to quality of play, and technique is feeble to say the least. I think most people watch tennis because they love the combination of all the things that go into making tennis players great - which includes athleticism. To say it includes this to the exclusion of everything else demeans everyone's intelligence - not least his own.


I think the problem is that he's just using Justine and Serena
as scape goats to justify what alot of tennis writers have been
saying and that is Roger Federer is the better player than
Andy Roddick because BIG BALLS , BIG Serves isn't what pure
tennis is about.

for-sure
Jan 22nd, 2004, 02:32 PM
Let's not forget the importance of the serve in the men's game. Sucky players on the men's side can just zip through against better players by virtue of a good serve...and some luck (on a return game).

Serves Equal (Equal=Ferrero)
Ferrero vs. Roddick...Ferrero would win 6-3 6-3

Kart
Jan 22nd, 2004, 02:33 PM
Brad Gilbert never stops talking during any of his players' matches.

I would say in this instance he talks too much but the key point to me is that he said the women not beating the men is not really an indication or not that they deserve equal prizemoney or not . . . or anything else.

So his comments are fine with me.

Greenout
Jan 22nd, 2004, 02:33 PM
But when you get Federer Vs. Ferrero for example, you know that you will (to a probability of 85%, get a great match) If you place Justine vs. Amelie, you really don't know which Amelie will show up. Another example is Kim vs. Justine. Everyone in the top 6 on the women's side has the ability to beat one another regularly, the difference is mostly mental (ala Kim's 5-1 lead vs. Serena last year at the AUS)



I've seen Roger,and JCF tank matches before.

for-sure
Jan 22nd, 2004, 02:41 PM
true...but I mean on a larger scale.

Cybelle Darkholme
Jan 22nd, 2004, 02:42 PM
Well...are male actors better than female actors?

now you're being silly. acting is subjective. The oscars could just have one category: best performance and call it a night.

Kart
Jan 22nd, 2004, 02:43 PM
LOL at the title of this thread though BTW - if the source had had been Mr Henin-Hardenne I might well have interpreted it a different way.

Greenout
Jan 22nd, 2004, 02:54 PM
I always considered that one of the biggest reasons that
the ATP loves to bash the WTA tour is because in the realm
of Sports world wide tennis is consider kind of sissy. The
ATP are so insecure about competing against the like
of Football, Basketball, Hockey etc...they always
make a big deal about "how powerful the serves are"
"How big the serves are" blah, blah.

Real boys play football, they don't play tennis in the
school play grounds around the world.

Here's a thought. In Japan tennis is considered a WOMAN'S SPORT.
If your a guy and plays tennis, most people will assume your
just some sissy rich kid with alot of time on your hands hitting
on girls at the tennis clubs. Real boys play soccer or baseball;
not tennis.

Paneru
Jan 22nd, 2004, 02:54 PM
Brad Gilbert is pathetic!
Nothing more than stroking the
male ego, especially Roddick's!;)

Obviously somebody's not secure in their manhood(ala MacEnroe)!
Yes, men are built differently than women and by all accounts should beat them! No hips, no breast!

You know they'd most likely win but why do you have to continue to bring it up? Who are you trying to convince?

IMO, all this crap from guys like him and Mac are simply envious of the fact that this is the age of the women! Women's tennis is out doing men's! They both have game. The difference is that the women stars are multi-dimensional. So many different personality types and persona's that the public are eating up. Venus, Serena, Anna, Jennifer, Lindsay, Kim, Justine, Hingis, ect...most layman when asked to name tennis players cannot onlt name players but give you background. These girls really make an impression, tennis wise and other. Hence, the obssesive coverage and gushing over Roddick, Agassi by these commentators. And the ego stroking by saying that though the women are more popular most of our lowest could still beat the best of the women! May be true, but sounds more like sour grapes than anything!

The men had Pete & Andre which drove tennis, but now that Pete is gone, Andre is in his twilight, they are trying to shove Roddick down our throughts to nausea at every chance! Unlike Pete & Andre who became stars because of who they were, these guys are trying to make stars, Roddick. He may very well become one on Pete & Andre's level one day but, as of now they are forcing the issue and I for one can't stand it! They do it to the point where they neglect other players as far as seeing their matches and such. At almost every rain delay or what have you Roddick is promoted to the hilt, very contrieved!

pigam
Jan 22nd, 2004, 03:03 PM
Well he does't lie. But which people ask these kinda questions?!
Watch a men's tennismatch first. Then watch a women's match, and you just KNOW (for sure ;) ) that there is no comparison possible.
This goes for nearly every single sport. Big deal.
And yeah, he clearly said JHH sucks :rolleyes:

Allez-H
Jan 22nd, 2004, 03:09 PM
Everybody knows that womenstennis is more popular than menstennis these days,and I guess they don't like that fact.So what women can't beat most of the maleplayers.You actually think they care?They have their own tour,with their own players and fans.Acually last year they did this FRench documentary about should there be equal prize-money and stuff.And they talked to Arnaud Clement and Kim.And Arnuad was like:they don't deserve equal prize-money cuz they don't play 5 sets and they aren't as strong as the men and that they are boring and that if they wont to earn equal prize money they should play 5 sets too and so on.And when Kim was told about this her response was,I just love this,:BULLSHIT!!!!

I don't think she had to say anymore.Unlike Arnaud she had to use only one word to say what she meant.

Paneru
Jan 22nd, 2004, 03:24 PM
Everybody knows that womenstennis is more popular than menstennis these days,and I guess they don't like that fact.So what women can't beat most of the maleplayers.You actually think they care?They have their own tour,with their own players and fans.Acually last year they did this FRench documentary about should there be equal prize-money and stuff.And they talked to Arnaud Clement and Kim.And Arnuad was like:they don't deserve equal prize-money cuz they don't play 5 sets and they aren't as strong as the men and that they are boring and that if they wont to earn equal prize money they should play 5 sets too and so on.And when Kim was told about this her response was,I just love this,:BULLSHIT!!!!

I don't think she had to say anymore.Unlike Arnaud she had to use only one word to say what she meant.
:lol:

Go Kim!!!:kiss:


He and others need to get over the macho mentality! If you are such big strong men then why shouldn't you do more?!? I'm sure the women would be able to do best of 5 if they had to. They would simply have to adjust and adapt. Also, if the women are so boring then why are so may watching!:p

Just sour grapes that more people would rather watch
Kim and the gals over his sorry ass!

I'm a guy and why should I feel threatened by the women!
They are great players regardless of their sex! They earned all the praise and accolades they get! Guys, If you want that kind of attention and what not, shut up and do something about it, stop the whining!

Sure, if I'm one of those 1,000 players I would probably beat the top ladies but, if I'm supposed to be the "man" and easily win, what does it prove!

Like I said, simply ego stroking!

Love Kim's response!:bounce:

Joana
Jan 22nd, 2004, 04:06 PM
In general he's right. But I just don't understand why is this subject brought up so much. I don't think I've ever heard the discussion about whether Marion Jones is faster than Maurice Green or could Inge de Bruijn beat Ian Thorpe. But in tennis we have this meaningless question repeated a million times. Instead of boasting about who's better, they should better concentrate on improving the game overall.

Smart
Jan 22nd, 2004, 04:35 PM
I didn't know Brad Gilbers is this a poor guy. Oh, he has had a hard life. Doesn't he know that a woman isn't a man. Pathetic Brad, pathetic.

gentenaire
Jan 22nd, 2004, 04:39 PM
I don't see anything wrong with his comments. He's right, the men are so much stronger physically that they have no problems beating even the best women players. I remember hearing that Venus's sparring partner would have no problem beating her. I don't think this is an attack on the women, it's just the way of life.

kiekeboe
Jan 22nd, 2004, 04:53 PM
There is a diffirence between men's tennis and women's tennis !

Keith17
Jan 22nd, 2004, 04:56 PM
We've found the Aussie Open's replacement for Jim Courier.

I guess in this rich, snobby tennis world where these clowns live an isolated life... it's cool to rip on the women.

tennisluver99
Jan 22nd, 2004, 05:31 PM
I came to the conclusion that Brad is an idiot, after he said Federer was over-hyped.

Allez-H
Jan 22nd, 2004, 05:40 PM
I came to the conclusion that Brad is an idiot, after he said Federer was over-hyped.
And Roddick isn't overhyped? :rolleyes:

for-sure
Jan 22nd, 2004, 05:46 PM
If Federer is over-hyped...what does that make Andy Roddick (aka Mr. I will bring nothing new to the game, no matter how much I win)

darrinbaker00
Jan 22nd, 2004, 05:51 PM
Gilbert also insists that Andre was better than Pete, even though Pete held the advantage in head-to-head (20-14), majors (14-8), titles and prize money. Pete won more often, but Andre was better? Whatever you say, Brad. ;)

Lelu
Jan 22nd, 2004, 06:07 PM
Well, too many half-brain posters jump to conclusions before even reading the article. If Brad Gilbert, a coach of a male tennis player, talks about female players, then, it must be negative. Go back and read the whole thing!
The guy answered questions, reluctantly at that, posed to him by a journalist. He stated his opinion related to the field he is a world renowned expert in. He also said that such comparisons are not relevant and these fact don't take anything away from women's tennis. End of the story. If you want to bash anyone, jump on the media people who always try to create controversy.

V&SGotItGoingOn
Jan 22nd, 2004, 06:38 PM
If I remember correctly, last year Serena and Andy played against each other in a charity benefit (ok so it is for charity, so not "serious" match), and Serena won. This is when she was the world number one, and he said, "Well if you're going to lose to somebody, it's best to lose to the best" or something along those lines. Anyways, I would just be curious to hear how Brad analyzed this match.

BigTennisFan
Jan 22nd, 2004, 06:54 PM
"Real boys play football, they don't play tennis in the
school play grounds around the world."


I'd like to see any NFL player or any NBA player on the court like Younes and Andy in last years quarter at OZ. 5 hours plus in that sun? Name one NFL or NBA player who would not have been taken out on a stretcher.

Paneru
Jan 22nd, 2004, 06:56 PM
Well, too many half-brain posters jump to conclusions before even reading the article. If Brad Gilbert, a coach of a male tennis player, talks about female players, then, it must be negative. Go back and read the whole thing!
The guy answered questions, reluctantly at that, posed to him by a journalist. He stated his opinion related to the field he is a world renowned expert in. He also said that such comparisons are not relevant and these fact don't take anything away from women's tennis. End of the story. If you want to bash anyone, jump on the media people who always try to create controversy.

It's called not taking the bait!:rolleyes:
Half wit!

If you know the intensions of the person asking the question aren't on the up and up(which he did, dead horse always being beaten) you simply bypass their question because you know they are only trying to start something!

Plain and Simple!

Guess Mr. Gilbert hasn't learned that yet!:p

Keith17
Jan 22nd, 2004, 07:01 PM
Then Brad should have just said that such comparisons are not relevant. End of story.

Going on about how Andy and Andre would easily beat a woman doesn't help his cause.

bandabou
Jan 22nd, 2004, 07:06 PM
Yeah, Fed is overhyped.....I mean how dare he lose only three-sets to Andy in 6 matches?!

Brad better stop talking too much....because the day Fed REALLY starts playing to his potential, Andy wouldn´t be anything more than a cheerleader! Just like Andre was to Pete.

CJ07
Jan 22nd, 2004, 07:11 PM
If I remember correctly, last year Serena and Andy played against each other in a charity benefit (ok so it is for charity, so not "serious" match), and Serena won. This is when she was the world number one, and he said, "Well if you're going to lose to somebody, it's best to lose to the best" or something along those lines. Anyways, I would just be curious to hear how Brad analyzed this match.
well I dunno about that, but Serena supposedly killed him around 8 years ago.

Also Venus lost to Canas, but it was 6-4 6-3.

But other than the Williams sisters, women just dont come close to the men.
But it doesnt mean anything. Quite frankly women are better because they're not so dependent on 2 shots. They have to actually think out there.

Jem
Jan 22nd, 2004, 07:21 PM
Too many of you are making a mountain out of mole hill. Gilbert said absolutely nothing bad about Henin-Hardenne. In fact, I thought he went above and beyond trying to defend the women's game. Perhaps he should have just responded to the original question by saying it was irrelevant, but it's easy to second-guess someone when you were not in the spotlight. Beyond all that, what he said is true. Henin-Hardenne would be lucky to beat most USA collegiate male players. It's just a fact of life and physical differences between men and women. I know a young 17-year-old male player, who was once ranked in my home state of Georgia -- somewhere in the top 75 in the 16-and unders -- and he always played and beat a WTA player who ranks near the top 225 on the computer rankings. Their matches are competitive, but the guy wins because of his strength.

Habsudovafan
Jan 22nd, 2004, 08:09 PM
Justine should play a match against Alberto Berasategui. He is not very tall. No service canon.

tennischick
Jan 22nd, 2004, 08:17 PM
Brad is right but the comparison is pointless IMO...

pigam
Jan 22nd, 2004, 08:21 PM
Oli Rochus could beat Serena 6-0 6-0.
There is just no competition. I mean, compare men/women sprinters, swimmers, cyclists, ...
He said nothing new, really...

Crazy Canuck
Jan 22nd, 2004, 08:34 PM
Ok. A point;but it's a known fact that the reason there are young
teens like Maria playing at the AO 2004, and no one her age in
the mens draw is because girls mature quicker than men.


Erm? Rafael Nadal and Richard Gasquet are only a year older than Maria. They also both won their first ATP matches when they were only 15 years old. Richard played his first grand slam before his 17th birthday, actually. Rafael would have done the same, but he was injured.

Generally this is the case, but there are exceptional examples to counter the rule.

It's also worth noting that the youngest female slam winner is only a year younger than the youngest male slam winner.

Knizzle
Jan 22nd, 2004, 08:36 PM
Oli Rochus could beat Serena 6-0 6-0.
There is just no competition. I mean, compare men/women sprinters, swimmers, cyclists, ...
He said nothing new, really...

I don't think that would happen. Serena would win a few games.

Crazy Canuck
Jan 22nd, 2004, 08:37 PM
I also think that the hight no. of UFE comes from women's natural biological emotional sensitivity. I have, for example, never seen a man pull an Amelie or Hantuchova.

wtf is women's "natural biological emotional sensitivity"? :rolleyes: As opposed to men, who have natural biological MANLY qualities, right?

As other people have covered... there are as many error fests in mens tennis as in womens. You obviously just haven't been paying attention.

Knizzle
Jan 22nd, 2004, 08:37 PM
Erm? Rafael Nadal and Richard Gasquet are only a year older than Maria. They also both won their first ATP matches when they were only 15 years old. Richard played his first grand slam before his 17th birthday, actually. Rafael would have done the same, but he was injured.

Generally this is the case, but there are exceptional examples to counter the rule.

It's also worth noting that the youngest female slam winner is only a year younger than the youngest male slam winner.

But if you compare the youngest #1's then the gap is huge.

pigam
Jan 22nd, 2004, 08:41 PM
I don't think that would happen. Serena would win a few games.
COULD
I honestly think if they both play their best, it could be 6-0 6-0
Oli is one of the best returners, movers,... and he's used to the power Serena wuld feed him. But I agree, in a normal match Serena would probably hold serve a copuple of times.
Really, I think this isn't worth a discussion. It says nothing about Rochus' tennisqualies, nor about Serena's

Crazy Canuck
Jan 22nd, 2004, 08:41 PM
there are more Mary Pierce type players on the men's side. Players that are worthy of mention but are hanging in the lower ranks currently. Perhpas it's because of all the freak GS finalists and Semi-finalists....


*Mark
*Costa
*Greg
*Tim
*Verkerk
*Corretja
*Moya
*Kuertan
*Hewitt (ranked 17)
*Shalkin
*Thomas Johannson (spelling?)
*...

For the Women, the only non top 10 players with major News making ability are

*Mary P.
*Maria S.
*Hantuchova
*Dokic
*Anna

YOu see, this comparison would make sense had you not listed some top ten players in the mens grouping... or if some more of the women you listed were past slam winners - Mary is the only one.

Moya and Mark - two players sitting in the "lower ranks" - are top ten. Henman will be top ten after Australia, and Hewitt will also likely be.

It's SCHALKEN.

I always screw up on Johansson too.

I would consider very few of the players you listed for the men to be "freak" Grand Slam finalists or SFists.

Whatever.

I don't remember what your point was, so I'll cut my post off here. Something about Mary Pierce and news making. Meh.

Dawn Marie
Jan 22nd, 2004, 08:41 PM
He is not right or wrong!!

He is an asshole though imho.

The MEN are NOT BETTER but are stronger at the game because they are made up as stronger humans!

This does not mean that pound for pound shot for shot. That they are better! The fact that all these MEN are refering to the WTA with the ATP just tells you how great the women really are.

Anyway, didn't Venus return one of JCF serves during Hopman Cup? LMAO

Crazy Canuck
Jan 22nd, 2004, 08:43 PM
Let's not forget the importance of the serve in the men's game. Sucky players on the men's side can just zip through against better players by virtue of a good serve...and some luck (on a return game).

It's not that simple.

If it was, then Ivo Karlovic would rule the world, and Wayne Arthurs would be kicking some serious ass.

Crazy Canuck
Jan 22nd, 2004, 08:48 PM
I always considered that one of the biggest reasons that
the ATP loves to bash the WTA tour is because in the realm
of Sports world wide tennis is consider kind of sissy. The
ATP are so insecure about competing against the like
of Football, Basketball, Hockey etc...they always
make a big deal about "how powerful the serves are"
"How big the serves are" blah, blah.

This is an irritating generalization.

Some tool (whether it be a retired tool like Gilbert, or a current tool like Rios) steps forward to bitch about the wta, and people start shooting their mouths off about how everybody on the ATP feels.

If you have some quotes from Roddick, Federer, Ferrero, Andre, Coria, Schuettler, Moya, Nalbandian, Grosjean, or Mark P, then we'll talk. Otherwise all of this "they are insecure" bullshit is just that - pointless bullshit that has no basis whatsoever.

It's like me saying that the WTA has to call the ATP insecure because they are projecting their own feelings onto others as opposed to dealing them, based on how WTA fans act on a messageboard.


Here's a thought. In Japan tennis is considered a WOMAN'S SPORT.
If your a guy and plays tennis, most people will assume your
just some sissy rich kid with alot of time on your hands hitting
on girls at the tennis clubs. Real boys play soccer or baseball;
not tennis.

Still, this does nothing to save Ferrero from being damn near molested everytime he steps off a plane in Tokyo ;)

By the way, how many top players on the ATP hail from Japan? This is relevant to how the ATP players feel HOW exactly? ;)

Crazy Canuck
Jan 22nd, 2004, 08:51 PM
Everybody knows that womenstennis is more popular than menstennis these days,and I guess they don't like that fact.

It's actually not necessarily a "fact". It's annoying when people claim that it's "fact" because they read such and such on a messageboard, though.

Crazy Canuck
Jan 22nd, 2004, 08:52 PM
We've found the Aussie Open's replacement for Jim Courier.

I guess in this rich, snobby tennis world where these clowns live an isolated life... it's cool to rip on the women.
Apparently it's even more cool to rip on thousands of male tennis players because of the words of a few.

Frankly, I don't think that is any better.

Knizzle
Jan 22nd, 2004, 08:53 PM
It's actually not necessarily a "fact". It's annoying when people claim that it's "fact" because they read such and such on a messageboard, though.

In America women's tennis is more popular.

Crazy Canuck
Jan 22nd, 2004, 08:54 PM
I came to the conclusion that Brad is an idiot, after he said Federer was over-hyped.
That was one of my favourite Brad moments; calling Roger overhyped a mere week before he lifted his first Grand Slam :lol: Even Roddick has enough sense not to say stupid things like this. Christ.

Brad also called Nadal overhyped, which is fair. But he did it a mere two months after writing a glowing report about him on his own website. :rolleyes: Consistency is key, Brad.

Crazy Canuck
Jan 22nd, 2004, 08:57 PM
In America women's tennis is more popular.
That's not what the poster said, now is it?

Regardless.... this may well be true, but what is your evidence? I've seen this written time and time again on messageboards, but am yet to find any solid stats. Is it because more people watched an all Williams final than Hewitt-Nalbandian at Wimbledon? Well what about the USO final just passed, or the Sampras-Agassi final the year before? What about Houston vs LA year end? I find the information to be rather inconclusive. Perhaps because I haven't gone looking for any.

Knizzle
Jan 22nd, 2004, 08:59 PM
"Real boys play football, they don't play tennis in the
school play grounds around the world."


I'd like to see any NFL player or any NBA player on the court like Younes and Andy in last years quarter at OZ. 5 hours plus in that sun? Name one NFL or NBA player who would not have been taken out on a stretcher.

That was a night match wasn't it?? And as far as them being out there 5 hours, some of them could do it, but the body of an NBA or NFL player is MUCH bigger than that of a tennis player so naturally the tennis player would be able to endure better. They also take 90 breaks every 2 or 3 games.

Crazy Canuck
Jan 22nd, 2004, 08:59 PM
If Federer is over-hyped...what does that make Andy Roddick (aka Mr. I will bring nothing new to the game, no matter how much I win)
Oh, we agree on something!

Although I'm not sure that I'd call Roddick overhyped, though. His game is ugly and boring, but it's effective, and he's going to get a Hell of a lot out of it, unfortunately. *sob*

Crazy Canuck
Jan 22nd, 2004, 09:05 PM
But if you compare the youngest #1's then the gap is huge.
Yeah.

That doesn't change the fact that saying there is nobody Maria's age in the mens draw. While this is true if we go by date of birth, the statement was misleading, as there certainly are/were young teenage prospects in the mens draw.

That was really all that I was trying to point out. The other bit was just for interests sake.

Crazy Canuck
Jan 22nd, 2004, 09:06 PM
He is not right or wrong!!

He is an asshole though imho.

The MEN are NOT BETTER but are stronger at the game because they are made up as stronger humans!

This does not mean that pound for pound shot for shot. That they are better! The fact that all these MEN are refering to the WTA with the ATP just tells you how great the women really are.

Anyway, didn't Venus return one of JCF serves during Hopman Cup? LMAO
She might have, had either actually played the Hopman Cup :rolleyes:


But other than the Williams sisters, women just dont come close to the men.
But it doesnt mean anything. Quite frankly women are better because they're not so dependent on 2 shots. They have to actually think out there.

I forget who said this, but it's not true. The Williams sisters dont' come close to the men either.

Knizzle
Jan 22nd, 2004, 09:10 PM
She might have, had either actually played the Hopman Cup :rolleyes:

It was Hong Kong and from what I hear she handled his serve well and even aced him.

Crazy Canuck
Jan 22nd, 2004, 09:13 PM
It was Hong Kong and from what I hear she handled his serve well and even aced him.
I heard that too. I was picking on the Hopman Cup reference.

I'm sure that this happened, I just don't think that it's a big deal. IN no way does it disprove anything Gilbert has said. Hell, it proves it... he suggested that Justine could hold serve ;)

gweeny
Jan 22nd, 2004, 09:26 PM
Why is that every number one ranked female is compared to the men. Will Serena be able to beat the men? Will Justine be able to beat the men? It is ridiculous and baseless.

I would like the journalists or whoever keeps bringing up this stupid question, to ask which number one male player has the biggest dick. His Roddick's bigger than Roger Federer? (Another idiotic question).

The male ego is so fragile, that they must constantly belittle the female tennis players.

ToeTag
Jan 22nd, 2004, 09:46 PM
:) Just wondering....but where is the link to this story?

Crazy Canuck
Jan 22nd, 2004, 11:05 PM
The male ego is so fragile, that they must constantly belittle the female tennis players.

Who the fuck is "they"?

The only egos that seem to ge fragile are those of wta fans ;)

BigTennisFan
Jan 23rd, 2004, 05:59 AM
That was a night match wasn't it?? And as far as them being out there 5 hours, some of them could do it, but the body of an NBA or NFL player is MUCH bigger than that of a tennis player so naturally the tennis player would be able to endure better. They also take 90 breaks every 2 or 3 games.
That's true but remember that in tennis (singles) it's one on one. No team mates to pull your bacon out of the fire. Offense AND Defense. And let's not forget that in football especially, certain positions are filled by lardos.:lol:

And there is much less action in football.

Douggie
Jan 23rd, 2004, 06:01 AM
Well of coarse the mens tennis depth is such high Calibre a player ranked 200th can beat number 1 its just so unpretictable which makes it interesting to watch

Calaer
Jan 23rd, 2004, 06:06 AM
Well, Patty Schnyder beat a guy ranked 1000 and they said she'd lose 6-0 6-0 :p

Andre@
Jan 23rd, 2004, 06:12 AM
Always the same history man against woman bla bla bla bla...

MAN is MAN and WOMAN is WOMAN

if it wasn't that way would be need to creat a NEW LEAGUE the mixed one....

It is because exist the WTA and the ATP


in my point of view it seens like the Male tennis professional are annoy because the women are earns so much money as them.


That is the real point!!!!!!!!:wavey:

DunkMachine
Jan 23rd, 2004, 06:48 AM
Men ARE generally faster and stronger than women in physical activities. But I think the fault lies within culture rather than gender. Women want to stay feminine and attractive so they spend less time working on their strength. Henin is strong and doesn't mind pumping some iron. That has brought her to the top dispite her small stature.

If women would focus more on physical strength I don't see why they couldnt compete well against men. Womens tennis used to be full of prancing princesses maybe if they take the sport more seriously they can surprise the men.

decemberlove
Jan 23rd, 2004, 07:12 AM
I think we are fed so much No.1 vs. No.345 that we forget that No.30 vs. No.35 could be, by far, more fun to watch. I also think that the hight no. of UFE comes from women's natural biological emotional sensitivity. I have, for example, never seen a man pull an Amelie or Hantuchova.
wow, hello 19th century ignorance.

why dont you step into the 21st one day?

there are plenty of men who are extremely sensitive, and many women who are tough as nails. abre los ojos.

Crazy Canuck
Jan 23rd, 2004, 07:22 AM
in my point of view it seens like the Male tennis professional are annoy because the women are earns so much money as them.

And the generalizations continue.

Crazy Canuck
Jan 23rd, 2004, 07:23 AM
Santoro reportedly spat at a linesmen the other day. While insulting the ATP don't forget to mention that they ALL spit at linesmen.

Hagar
Jan 23rd, 2004, 07:53 AM
OK. This is a guy who thinks you have to do parachutejumps and similar stupid Neanderthaler-stuff to make your character stronger. To be ignored.

~ The Leopard ~
Jan 23rd, 2004, 08:01 AM
I think it's interesting to compare where the women stand against the men, and many agree with me - hence the popularity of those "battle of the sexes matches", etc. It was legitimate for the interviewer to ask the question.

It was also legitimate of Gilbert to answer it. I agree with whoever said that we should all think about how well we would cope, if put on the spot like that, before we condemn him. Believe me, it's a lot easier to think about answers to interviewers' questions at our computers than it is to answer them in real time without sounding either crass, dumb, or totally insincere. I'm continually amazed at how blithely unaware people are of this obvious fact (not just on this thread).

Where he went wrong, though, was with the business about 1000 guys would beat Justine. I suspect it's an exaggeration. Even if it's not, it's put in a way that tends to belittle her ability and that of the other female players. Even on the spur of the moment, and even at the risk of sounding insincere, he should have been more tactful.

But that's the most you can accuse him of. He was asked about something and he replied with an answer that is essentially true...but he put it in a tactless, perhaps exaggerated way.

So shoot him.

vaiva
Jan 23rd, 2004, 08:09 AM
Well, Justine showed a lot more maturity than Brad.

Justine Henin-Hardenne refused to get dragged into an argument over the battle of the sexes at the Australian Open on Friday. The world number one was unwittingly caught up in the debate after Andy Roddick's coach Brad Gilbert reportedly said she would not beat the 1,000th ranked man in an Australian newspaper.

"I don't care too much about this because we're not here to compare men's tennis with women's tennis," said the Belgian following her 6-2 7-5 win over Russia's Svetlana Kuznetsova.
"It's totally different, our bodies are totally different. It's very hard to compare so I don't want to comment on this."

Rothes
Jan 23rd, 2004, 08:28 AM
Wait a second, who did patty beat last year? What was his ranking?
Patrick Mayr, Austrian ranked in the 1000's somewhere. 7-6 7-6

Brian Stewart
Jan 23rd, 2004, 09:38 AM
Greenout made some good points. The guys that make negative comments about women's tennis are sensitive about the general perception of tennis (i.e. a "sissy" sport, with "sissy" being the most polite term used). Contrary to what they wish to believe, that's still true today.

Just out of curiosity, what was Lars Rehman ranked at the end of 1999, when he was beaten by the retired Judith Wiesner?

One of the problems that leads to such exaggerated claims is the perspective. As is generally known, there is a big difference is how pro tennis looks live, courtside, vs on TV. It looks a lot slower on TV. Most, if not all, of the guys making these comparisons are involved with the ATP, and get to see the men's matches up close and at full speed. However, they usually see the women's matches on TV. So they're seeing the women at less than full speed. Thus, they compare ATP to WTA-lite. Not a very valid basis for comparison. I recall one announcer who got "stuck" sitting courtside for a WTA match. He came back like he had seen something forbidden. Having only seen them on TV, he was shocked they hit so hard.

On other subjects, since they have this Hawkeye/ShotSpot technology, which can track the speed of groundies, why don't they give us a list of fastest groundies in the event? Sure, it would be limited to a court or two, but most of the top players would be in the sample. They had a similar setup at the USO several years ago, but stopped posting groundstroke speeds after Agassi's turned up only 2 MPH faster than Graf's and Seles'. (This was during his "hitting" days, before he tempered his game.) Perhaps they're afraid of what the numbers will reveal?

canoe.
Jan 23rd, 2004, 10:07 AM
DunkMachine Posted:Womens tennis used to be full of prancing princesses maybe if they take the sport more seriously they can surprise the men :o From the sounds of it there is ALOT of "prancing Princesses" on the atp tour and this board.

canoe.
Jan 23rd, 2004, 10:10 AM
Santoro reportedly spat at a linesmen the other day. While insulting the ATP don't forget to mention that they ALL spit at linesmen.
:o :rolleyes: Did we miss our nap?

TennisHack
Jan 23rd, 2004, 09:02 PM
I think the part most find offensive (including me) was how he said what he said, what the implications were. He says

"Justine Henin is a good little player, but she's about 5ft 5in (165cm) and about 125lb (57kg). She couldn't come close to beating one guy in the draw," he said.
A good little player? As if she's inferior to men?

Asked if Henin-Hardenne could take a game off world No. 1 Roddick, Gilbert said: "It's possible. She could hold serve."

Gilbert, who worked with Agassi for eight years, said the superstar veteran would be an extremely tough proposition for Henin-Hardenne.

"Andre's a good groundstroker. Andre would smoke her into submission," Gilbert said.
The first answer was probably sarcastic (having listened to him drone on since he is ESPN's newest commentator) and the second one is just plain rude. He may or may not have a point, but he didn't have to be such a friggin asshole about it.

And, of course, when he was asked about the questions later, he backpedaled.

Put on the spot? He could have handled it like Justine did -- declined to talk about it.

Brαm
Jan 23rd, 2004, 09:11 PM
Very smart of Justine to ignore these comments :yeah:

JustineTime
Jan 23rd, 2004, 09:44 PM
Justine doesn't suck butt? :unsure:

:whew: ! That's a relief! :)

Rub
Jan 23rd, 2004, 10:41 PM
:fiery:

1jackson2001
Jan 24th, 2004, 12:50 AM
The men have better technique too. It's not all just about power.

But whatever, Brad took the bait.