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Come-on-kim
Dec 29th, 2003, 11:36 PM
In Belgium, a majority party have proposed to vote a law to legalize the adoption of children by gay couples (but the adoption of foreign children by gay couple will be forbidden).

What do you think about it?

Rothes
Dec 29th, 2003, 11:40 PM
:tape: I think I will stay closed on this one ;)

jimbo mack
Dec 29th, 2003, 11:54 PM
i'm gay but i'm not sure if i think its right for children to have the same sex parents

Rothes
Dec 29th, 2003, 11:58 PM
From Religious Grounds (Im sure Leopard, Bionic no what Im talking about) I haven't accpted the choice of homosexuality, likley in contemplating in that perspective I think it's wrong for same sex couples to adopt children.

jimbo mack
Dec 29th, 2003, 11:58 PM
:lol:

i'd supposed gay people would be a lot richer!
seeing how expensive kids are these days :rolleyes:

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 29th, 2003, 11:59 PM
You already know what I think. ;)

jimbo mack
Dec 29th, 2003, 11:59 PM
From Religious Grounds (Im sure Leopard, Bionic no what Im talking about) I haven't accpted the choice of homosexuality, likley in contemplating in that perspective I think it's wrong for same sex couples to adopt children.

so ur a homophobe then rothes???????

GBFH
Dec 30th, 2003, 12:02 AM
You already know what I think. ;)

i don't.

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 30th, 2003, 12:02 AM
Why do some posters assume that straight couples have to have children, though? There is such a thing as contraception, in case this has slipped past you all. ;) A lot of straight people are "childless by choice" these days. I am one of them.

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 30th, 2003, 12:03 AM
i don't.

Oh. I think gay couples should be able to get married, adopt kids, do whatever they want.

GBFH
Dec 30th, 2003, 12:04 AM
Oh. I think gay couples should be able to get married, adopt kids, do whatever they want.

:)

spiceboy
Dec 30th, 2003, 12:09 AM
I respect all opinions and thinking that it's wrong for same sex couples to adopt children it's not homophobic at all, just an opinion. I'd like to know which reasons people have to deny this right :)
I actually think that gay couples (or even a gay person) are perfectly able to raise a child as good as any straight person and I have no reasons to believe that this could harm the kid in any way. At the end we are all human beings and the gift to love is in all of us. :angel:

jimbo mack
Dec 30th, 2003, 12:12 AM
From Religious Grounds (Im sure Leopard, Bionic no what Im talking about) I haven't accpted the choice of homosexuality, likley in contemplating in that perspective I think it's wrong for same sex couples to adopt children.


Shame, u must have a very sheltered life along with a very narrow minded view

GBFH
Dec 30th, 2003, 12:16 AM
well how's that any different from a single parent household?

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 30th, 2003, 12:19 AM
This business about all kids having to have the same upbringing is exaggerated. Anyway, public policy is not against people bringing up children in non-optimal circumstances. Plenty of poor people have children that they can't really afford, but we don't snatch them away. Thirdly, my friends who have kids have very precocious (in a lovable way) li'l brats who get exposure to all sorts of adult company. Gays tend to be more intelligent and well-educated people (now there's a controversial remark :eek: , but I think it's at least true of the gays who would take advantage of such a law). A gay couple could find all sorts of ways to get the kid having interaction with adults of the opposite sex - maybe more than goes on in a lot of straight households, with the "absent father" syndrome, etc.

So I can see no good public policy argument against it.

cellophane
Dec 30th, 2003, 12:19 AM
well how's that any different from a single parent household?

Damn it, was just about to ask that! :fiery: :p :lol:

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 30th, 2003, 12:21 AM
And, yeah, we don't snatch kids away from single mums anymore.

lilly
Dec 30th, 2003, 12:23 AM
A kid needs more than love. Of course a gay person can be totally able to raise a child just like any straight person. It's more the question that one gender is missing in the education of the child.

I think the world of a child consists (or can consist) of more people than just the parents, that would probably include the other gender.
I'm very glad with this proposition, (it's about fucking time!) I'm quite embarrased with the fact I live in country that doesn't recognize the rights of everybody. First the vote rights for non-EU citizens and now this, things are going the right way! ( :mad: why not foreign children)

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 30th, 2003, 12:25 AM
Well, you do realise I was being deliberately provocative don't you?

From experience though, I think there is *something* in the stereotype, which is true of most stereotypes.

The trouble with stereotypes is not that they are totally untrue; it is that they are used even when they do not apply. That makes them oppressive.

spiceboy
Dec 30th, 2003, 12:31 AM
A kid needs more than love. Of course a gay person can be totally able to raise a child just like any straight person. It's more the question that one gender is missing in the education of the child.

In that case artificial insemination should be forbidden if a woman on her own wants to have a baby, right :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Frank Riley
Dec 30th, 2003, 12:32 AM
As long as they love the kids and take care of them what is the problem. I know many different sex parents that beat and sexually molest their kids, they are not gay but they are bad parents. Being gay or not does not effect the ability of being a parent. It is an individual case for each kid, I would rather have gay parents that loved me rather than some truck driver and uneducated mother that both did not give a fuck and beat me as well. Love is love, comfort is comfort and good parents are good parents, what does being gay have to do with that?
I think gay people can be good people and good parents. It might help if they raised the kid to have an understanding of what is normal for men and women in this world and I think they can.

By the way I am not gay and I do not have any problems, I just see the world for what it is. Do you? :lick:

Rothes
Dec 30th, 2003, 12:33 AM
Shame, u must have a very sheltered life along with a very narrow minded view


Just because you don't accept homosexuality doesn't automaticially make you a homophobe, I don't accept it as of coming one myself or in fear of them, It's on religious grounds and morals where I set some standards which are implemented into my life and choices,

This question was deemed open, a simple yes or no with a small paragraph explaining why you think and thats all, No need to make profanity at someone who has a different tone of opinion then you :) Some of my beliefs are implemented on Religious grounds so you will have to get used to it :)

spiceboy
Dec 30th, 2003, 12:36 AM
I don't see the point, is the thread about insemination?

No, it's about this quote you posted earlier "It's more the question that one gender is missing in the education of the child." Got it? ;)

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 30th, 2003, 12:38 AM
The only relevance to the discussion was my point that any gay parents smart enough to go through the legal process, etc, to do this would probably be sufficiently smart, middle-class, etc, etc, to expose their kids to adults of the other sex. I made the comparison with my own friends (who are all lawyers, teachers, writers, academics, etc) who expose their kids to all sorts of adult company.

Even if that was not true...as I said, we don't take kids from poor people or single mothers. There is no public-policy rule that kids should only be brought up in optimal environments.

Rothes
Dec 30th, 2003, 12:43 AM
Even if that was not true...as I said, we don't take kids from poor people or single mothers. There is no public-policy rule that kids should only be brought up in optimal environments.


Yes but in discussing that Joui even if it isn't documented or legislated into law, Don't you find that people look to this topic on their own opinions and contemplations, morals if you will (Not Religiously)

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 30th, 2003, 12:54 AM
I was hoping to kind of avoid engaging your views this time round, Rothes. :D

Anyway, it's a public policy issue, i.e "What should the law be?" It's not a moral issue. The law goes way beyond morality in some ways (all that detailed regulation needed for a complex society like ours). In other ways, morality goes way beyond the law. There are all sorts of things that we may not like morally, but that doesn't mean there should be a law against them. Breaking a promise to a friend is a good example. It's bad, but it's perfectly legal unless you formed a valid contract. Even then, there's only a civil action available.

We do have a principle of freedom of religion in our society. Among other things, that means that it is *not* a good public policy argument to say that something is contrary to someone's religious views. If it's contrary to their religious views, they shouldn't do it themselves (e.g. no one is telling you to take lesbian lover). But they can't call for the law to impose those views on others.

Rothes
Dec 30th, 2003, 12:58 AM
You know what, I think I might have to award you with the post of the year :)

SJW
Dec 30th, 2003, 01:09 AM
i think gay people should have the right to adoption, marriage, whatever. i can't wait for the day where being gay is no longer seen as the devil

Mase
Dec 30th, 2003, 01:12 AM
Love is love no matter wether its from two male parents, two female parents, or a male/female combo of parents. There are so many kids out there that don't have any parents, why should we discriminate against gay people who would love to take care of these kids, and who obviously could afford to do so as well? I think its just stupid not to allow gay people to adopt, I definitley support the idea.

Rothes
Dec 30th, 2003, 01:22 AM
I was hoping to kind of avoid engaging your views this time round, Rothes. :D

Don't worry about it, Same Sex couples adopting compared to homosexuality is a less orthodox issue to me, I feel inclined to agree with you on your post that involves the theoretical way of handing the situation through common Legislature and politics. Though peoples word and opinion will always contradict their own feelings about the situation, Finding a law or making legislation within the topic is only going to cement it into the current society, Though people are still going to show personal views and beliefs anyway. It's the way the cookie crumbles.

Rothes
Dec 30th, 2003, 01:27 AM
Banjagurl, Do you mean Same sex couples having Biological offspring, like IVF, Modified Cell Meiosis, Transplanting of Eggs and fertilizing with Cell??

Really I geuss thats the only way Same Sex Spouses could have their own biological children.

SpikeyAidanm
Dec 30th, 2003, 05:26 AM
I'm hard-pressed to see people in this thread try to use their "right" to cease other people's "right which they don't exactly have."

Messenger
Dec 30th, 2003, 05:40 AM
I haven't accpted the choice of homosexuality

Well if you are homosexual you have the choice with how you want to live your life, but obviously even if you join a convent and purge yourself of all "sinful thoughts" that wouldn't change the fact that you are homosexual.

A homosexual life is a choice, but homosexuality isn't. Technical maybe, but it's one I always correct people on.

Rothes
Dec 30th, 2003, 07:05 AM
Well if you are homosexual you have the choice with how you want to live your life, but obviously even if you join a convent and purge yourself of all "sinful thoughts" that wouldn't change the fact that you are homosexual.

A homosexual life is a choice, but homosexuality isn't. Technical maybe, but it's one I always correct people on.

Hi Messenger, thats what I try to mean, It's just that I cant find a word in English or a phrase to define what you said (English not my First Language) but yes thankyou second ego ;) :)

Rothes
Dec 30th, 2003, 07:27 AM
A man and a woman each bring unique, powerful and valuable forms of love to the raising of children. To purposefully deny such to children - unless such is absolutely necessary - is a serious form of selfishness. Children deserve their Mama's and Papas, and if they can't have them, the next best thing - a married woman and man to raise them. Further, modeling deviant sexuality to children will always harm them - failure to model normal male/female relationships and sexuality is to deny them something that is normal and beneficial. On average homosexual relationships are volatile, short-lived and promiscuous and unfaithful. Homosexual parenting will on average assuredly harm children.

--Christianity.com--

DutchieGirl
Dec 30th, 2003, 07:36 AM
A man and a woman each bring unique, powerful and valuable forms of love to the raising of children. To purposefully deny such to children - unless such is absolutely necessary - is a serious form of selfishness. Children deserve their Mama's and Papas, and if they can't have them, the next best thing - a married woman and man to raise them. Further, modeling deviant sexuality to children will always harm them - failure to model normal male/female relationships and sexuality is to deny them something that is normal and beneficial. On average homosexual relationships are volatile, short-lived and promiscuous and unfaithful. Homosexual parenting will on average assuredly harm children.You know what! I've had enough of this shit! I tried to respect your point of view, but if you are gonna start name calling (ie calling all people who don't fit into your idea of sexuality "deviants") then you can get stuffed! Just because I like girls does NOT make me a deviant. You don't have to agree with me liking girls, but it doesn't make me a deviant! I have done no crime - I haven't fucked a 2 year old kid or something... THAT is a deviant!

And just because you only believe that male/female relationships are normal doesn't give you the right to say that sort of stuff either! And as people said - you have to judge each case by the people, same with different sex parents...hell, how many bloody divorces are there now between male/female partnerships??? A hell of alot...so you can't just say that gay relationships are volatile! My Mum's parents are divorced, and so are my parents...so out of the three generations of my family, there are two divorces out of three marriages so far...oh no wait, sorry, my Mum's sister and her husband are divorced, so that makes 3/4 and my Mum's brother married an already divorced lady! So tell me again how same sex relationships are unstable!

Rothes
Dec 30th, 2003, 07:56 AM
you don't have to worry, It was from christianity.com, I should of said earlier, I was going to take a few peoples ideas and post them up.

DutchieGirl
Dec 30th, 2003, 08:19 AM
yes, you should have said...and whoever runs that site ~~> :fiery: :fiery: :fiery:

Rothes
Dec 30th, 2003, 08:44 AM
Well I don't know who runs it, It's not always in that tone, it's Just a Large Christian Message Board for General Christians, Sorry If I upset you a little

vs1
Dec 30th, 2003, 08:44 AM
I think that what children need most in their lives is LOVE. If they can be given LOVE and a stable home, then I am ALL FOR IT. It matters little to me if their parents are straight, gay, single or a couple. It they have a loving family, that to me is the most important thing! :kiss:

Rothes
Dec 30th, 2003, 09:10 AM
I think that what children need most in their lives is LOVE. If they can be given LOVE and a stable home, then I am ALL FOR IT. It matters little to me if their parents are straight, gay, single or a couple. It they have a loving family, that to me is the most important thing! :kiss:

All Children need loving parents, they need a warm environment and home to live and thrive, I just can't see it been done in a same sex relationship, This is where the Children need to come first, need to be remembered, there the ones of the next generation, and it is not afforable to leave them in this environment.

Ok I have concluded in this thread now, No more Religious Evangelicising posts :)

spiceboy
Dec 30th, 2003, 09:12 AM
All Children need loving parents, they need a warm environment and home to live and thrive, I just can't see it been done in a same sex relationship.

So let me tell you that you look such a narrow-minded person :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

samhatz
Dec 30th, 2003, 09:58 AM
I would tend to think a children needs to be raised by a masculine figure and a feminine figure, not 2 parents of the same gender. At least, from an ideal point of view.

I can't say I'm "against" it. I don't think there's something wrong with having gay parents. But I can't help to think it's not really ideal for many reasons.

This is a frequent argument - one counter: single parent families... my opinion is children should always have a male and female influence - they do not have to be their parents though - GO GAY ADOPTION!!!

Congratulations to Belgium for being forward thinking!

Brαm
Dec 30th, 2003, 11:48 AM
All Children need loving parents, they need a warm environment and home to live and thrive, I just can't see it been done in a same sex relationship

That's the biggest crap I've ever read :eek:

Gay people don't love children & can't take care of them??? :eek:

hey_britney
Dec 30th, 2003, 12:57 PM
well how's that any different from a single parent household?

PRECISELY what I was going to say.

I have never been in favour of gay adoption as I believe a child needs a mother and father. But then I realized I couldn't well be against it unless I was against single mothers and single fathers. Which of course i am not.

Gay adoption should be allowed, but all straight couples in line for adoption should get first crack. Prejudice? Nope, it's the role of an adoption agency to select the most fit parents. Mother and father beats two dads or two moms which beat one of either.

In my opinion.

hey_britney
Dec 30th, 2003, 12:58 PM
Hi guys, I think everyone is entitled to an opinion, there's no need to insult people. If that's what he believes is fine for me, that's life...not everyone has to think the same way :)

In fact I have more respect for people who share their ideas without insulting than intolerant people who bashes anyone who doesn't feel the same...

it amazes me that you could even respond to that post, Spiceboy. As far as I can tell, it's totally incoherent. ;)

griffin
Dec 30th, 2003, 02:15 PM
Gay adoption should be allowed, but all straight couples in line for adoption should get first crack. Prejudice? Nope, it's the role of an adoption agency to select the most fit parents. Mother and father beats two dads or two moms which beat one of either.



Years ago, Massachusetts took this idea to the extreme and removed two boys from a gay foster home and placed them in the "most fit" situation with a heterosexual couple.

Who then physically and sexually abused them.

I agree with you that the adoption and foster-care agencies should find the most stable and loving situation for a child. But the idea that being straight automatically makes you a better parent, or more able to provide the care and guidance a child needs is just dead wrong, and imo based on nothing but prejudice and stereotypes.

Experimentee
Dec 30th, 2003, 03:39 PM
I dont have any problem with gay adoption, as long as there is love it doesnt matter what sexual orientation the parents are.
I dont think male and female role models are necessary, gender is socially constructed anyway, and it isnt necessary to propagate the stereotypes that males have to act a certain way and females have to act a certain way, i think in modern society we can look past all that and see everyone as individuals and not whether they're conforming to their gender.
If the child must have male and female role models, these can be people other than the parents, like relatives and family friends. A lot of children nowadays grow up in single parent families, and the majority of them are normal, so the whole male and female role model thing probably isnt as important as most poeple think.

decemberlove
Dec 30th, 2003, 05:25 PM
I would tend to think a children needs to be raised by a masculine figure and a feminine figure, not 2 parents of the same gender. At least, from an ideal point of view.

I can't say I'm "against" it. I don't think there's something wrong with having gay parents. But I can't help to think it's not really ideal for many reasons.

and it is ALSO a stereotype that the mother will be the stereotypical woman and the father will be the stereotypical man. the line of distinction tween gender roles is blending more than ever now. i can think of many straight couples where both persons are either very masculine in demeanor or very feminine in demeanor.

the whole mommy and daddy role isnt the same as it used to be, in say, the 50s.

decemberlove
Dec 30th, 2003, 05:38 PM
how?

Tompier
Dec 30th, 2003, 07:18 PM
nice discussion :)
..all I am goonna say is.."If I were a son of two fathers I would kill myself as soon as possible, If I had two moms I think I could live with that but still prospect of suicide very possible"

spiceboy
Dec 30th, 2003, 07:21 PM
nice discussion :)
..all I am goonna say is.."If I were a son of two fathers I would kill myself as soon as possible, If I had two moms I think I could live with that but still prospect of suicide very possible"

:lol: :lol: :lol: It really says a lot of yourself :tape:

Fat Frog
Dec 30th, 2003, 07:45 PM
children should be raised by caring, loving parents...gay or straight sudn't come into it really

A4
Dec 30th, 2003, 09:40 PM
Gay parents or straight parents............

As far as raising the kids, I don't think there'll be much of a difference.

Everyone talks about people's rights, but how about the rights of the kids? So, I asked myself. When growing up, will I have liked to see my father kissing another man? Brought up in an environment where two men kiss, sleep together? The answer is no. So for now, even though I support gay marraiges and gays having every right straights do, I feel like when it comes to adoption, there's a third party and a third life involved whose views must not be discounted.

I also realize there may be children who wouldn't care, so I guess its more appropriate to say I come down 50/50 on this one.

griffin
Dec 30th, 2003, 10:03 PM
Everyone talks about people's rights, but how about the rights of the kids? So, I asked myself. When growing up, will I have liked to see my father kissing another man? Brought up in an environment where two men kiss, sleep together? The answer is no. So for now, even though I support gay marraiges and gays having every right straights do, I feel like when it comes to adoption, there's a third party and a third life involved whose views must not be discounted.


Not that many people are that comfortable thinking about their opposite-sex parents getting jiggy - Do you think growing up in an environment where you saw your fathers kissing and being affectionate, you would still have such a knee-jerk reaction to such a thing? No one's discounting the rights and views of the child - but don't impose your own biases on them either.

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 30th, 2003, 10:13 PM
Marry me, Griffin! :hearts:

Hmmmmm, probably wouldn't work. :(

griffin
Dec 30th, 2003, 10:21 PM
I suppose that depends on one's definition or "work," but it would certainly be crowded ;)

A4
Dec 30th, 2003, 10:29 PM
Not that many people are that comfortable thinking about their opposite-sex parents getting jiggy - Do you think growing up in an environment where you saw your fathers kissing and being affectionate, you would still have such a knee-jerk reaction to such a thing? No one's discounting the rights and views of the child - but don't impose your own biases on them either.

Okay, I'm not thinking about parents getting it on. Just the ordinary things children see all the time. Mother and father sleeping on the same bed, kissing in kitchens etc etc.

If I had been brought up in an environment seeing two guys doing this, no, I don't think I may have what you call a "knee-jerk reaction". I may probably become not as sensitive to what kind of sexual environment kids are exposed to (you call it just affection/love, but there's also a sexual component, no matter which way you look at it). It shouldn't matter and shouldn't make a difference if two men have any form of sexual contact as opposed to a man and a woman, right? Here's the thing though. Do I want to be in a position where two men kissing/getting it on should make no difference to me as a man and a woman doing the same? Do kids want to be brought up such that they see no differences in sexuality? I honestly don't know, and as you rightly pointed out, kids being in such an enviroment will desensitize them to those differences.

As to biases, everyone has them. That's why I'd want the kids to be given as neutral an environment until a time they can make their own responsible decisions.

GBFH
Dec 30th, 2003, 10:41 PM
^^ erm...i still don't see a problem....wouldn't desensitizing them end up being beneficial? i would think it's better to be open-minded...

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 30th, 2003, 11:21 PM
^Exactly. If it happens like this (which I doubt actually) it seems like a *good* thing.

GBFH
Dec 30th, 2003, 11:31 PM
hmm....now that i think about it...there's a possibility that if you grow up in a same-sex household you'll experience a hetero bias.

but whatever...part of growing up is learning to accept people's differences.

GBFH
Dec 30th, 2003, 11:31 PM
^^ or at least learn to coexist.

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 30th, 2003, 11:37 PM
^Besides, you can't set public policy on the basis of shielding people from biases. The policy should be to counteract those biases, not yielding to them. Otherwise we'd stop black people and Jews (for example) from having children.

GBFH
Dec 30th, 2003, 11:40 PM
*wishes was as eloquent and articulate as joui

exactly.

Diya
Dec 30th, 2003, 11:49 PM
The goal of adoption is to make sure that the child has a permanent home with people who have the skills to be good parents.Lesbians and gay men can and do make good parents.Hence the issue of adoption is best decided by parents and professionals on a case-by-case basis, not by politicians or the government.There is a critical shortage of adoptive parents all over the world, and there are so many children who are stuck in foster care permanently just because gay men and women are not allowed to adopt .

Diya
Dec 31st, 2003, 12:03 AM
A man and a woman each bring unique, powerful and valuable forms of love to the raising of children. To purposefully deny such to children - unless such is absolutely necessary - is a serious form of selfishness. Children deserve their Mama's and Papas, and if they can't have them, the next best thing - a married woman and man to raise them. Further, modeling deviant sexuality to children will always harm them - failure to model normal male/female relationships and sexuality is to deny them something that is normal and beneficial. On average homosexual relationships are volatile, short-lived and promiscuous and unfaithful. Homosexual parenting will on average assuredly harm children.

--Christianity.com--

Argument:
Every child deserves to have a mother and a father who are married to each other.

Response:
Children who need to be adopted do not have the option of choosing between a married mother and father or some other type of parent(s). These children have neither a mother nor a father, married or unmarried. There are simply not enough married mothers and fathers who are interested in adoption.

Argument:
Children need a mother and a father to have proper male and female role models.

Response:
Children in foster care have neither a mother nor a father as role models. And children get their role models from many places besides their parents like grandparents, aunts and uncles, teachers, friends and neighbors.

Argument:
Gays and lesbians don't have stable relationships and don't know how to be good parents.

Response:
Like any other adults in this world, the majority of lesbians and gay men are in stable committed relationships. Of course some of these relationships have problems, as do some heterosexual relationships. Just how stable are the heterosexual relationships ?

Argument:
Children raised by gay or lesbian parents will be more likely to grow up to be gay themselves.

Response:
The sexual orientation of parents has no impact on the sexual orientation of their children and that children of lesbian and gay parents are no more likely than any other child to grow up to be gay. Yes the children of gays and lesbians may be more tolerant of diversity, but this is certainly not a disadvantage. Of course, some children of lesbians and gay men will grow up to be gay, as will some children of heterosexual parents. These children will have the advantage of parents who are supportive and accepting in a world that can sometimes be hostile.

Argument:
Children who are raised by lesbian or gay parents will be subjected to harassment and will be rejected by their peers.

Response:
Children make fun of other children for all kinds of reasons: for being too short or too tall, for being too thin or too fat, for being of a different race or religion or speaking a different language. Children show remarkable resiliency, especially if they are provided with a stable and loving home environment. Children in foster care face tremendous abuse from their peers for being parentless. These children often internalize that abuse, and often feel unwanted. Unfortunately, they do not have the emotional support of a loving permanent family to help them through these difficult times.

Argument:
Lesbians and gay men are more likely to molest children.

Response:
There is no connection between homosexuality and pedophilia. Sexual orientation, whether heterosexual or homosexual, is an adult sexual attraction to others. Pedophilia, on the other hand, is an adult sexual attraction to children.

Argument:
Children raised by lesbians and gay men will be brought up in an "immoral" environment.

Response:
There are all kinds of disagreements in this country about what is moral and what is immoral. Some people may think raising children without religion is immoral, yet atheists are allowed to adopt. Some people think drinking and gambling are immoral, but these things don't disqualify someone from being evaluated as an adoptive parent. If we eliminated from consideration all of the people that somebody thought was immoral, we would have almost no parents left to adopt. That can't be the right solution. What we can probably all agree on is that it is immoral to leave children languishing in foster care when there are qualified parents waiting to provide them with a stable and loving home. And that's what many gays and lesbians can do.

A4
Dec 31st, 2003, 01:51 AM
hmm....now that i think about it...there's a possibility that if you grow up in a same-sex household you'll experience a hetero bias.

but whatever...part of growing up is learning to accept people's differences.

I guess we're just on two different wavelengths and will agree to disagree.

Just for the record. I don't agree that not particularly caring to see two men kiss the same way and with the same feelings I have when I see a man and woman kiss, makes me close-minded. I like having different feelings about women that's all.

I don't know if I'd still feel this way if I'd been brought up by two males.

The jury's still out on whether being gay is totally genetic or there is an environmental component. For instance how does the environment in prisons promote homosexuality? If its all genetic, there shouldn't be an increase in homosexuality in prisons, right? Heteros should simply not be attracted to other guys.......
As long as there may be an environmental component, asking the kind of sexual environment a kid is brought up in, and wondering if that could affect his/her sexuality and whether the kid should have a say or not definitely doesn't make me close-minded. At least, not to myself.

As to differences and growing up .......... Great. I'm all for respecting anyone and all differences. Just when does respect for differences cross over to being asked to join? Do you have to be a part to realize people have differences and to respect those differences? Can't I respect gays, have gay friends etc etc and at the same time prefering to be brought up in as heterosexual a household as possible for the simple reason that to me, sex/women go hand in hand and wouldn't want to be exposed to anything to blunt that feel?

A4
Dec 31st, 2003, 02:00 AM
^^ erm...i still don't see a problem....wouldn't desensitizing them end up being beneficial? i would think it's better to be open-minded...

Sorry. Clicked on the wrong button for the previous post. To answer this question. Its all down to the individual. To you, it may be beneficial to have sex with a man and a woman at any time depending on the availability. To me, I'd want to have a woman 100% of the time and anything which might happen in my upbringing to compromise that feel......... I'd rather opt out.

GBFH
Dec 31st, 2003, 02:04 AM
Sorry. Clicked on the wrong button for the previous post. To answer this question. Its all down to the individual. To you, it may be beneficial to have sex with a man and a woman at any time depending on the availability. To me, I'd want to have a woman 100% of the time and anything which might happen in my upbringing to compromise that feel......... I'd rather opt out.

*raises eyebrow

my parents are straight...yet i have sexual feelings for both men AND women...i wonder how that happened?

GBFH
Dec 31st, 2003, 02:09 AM
and you were going to tell me this when? hm? :p :D

oops! lol!

well....i can't braid hair, so guess i'm out of the running, eh?

GBFH
Dec 31st, 2003, 02:11 AM
problem is...i lurves you anyway! :kiss: :p

same here :kiss:

love conquers all :hearts:

GBFH
Dec 31st, 2003, 02:15 AM
*gets in cliche mode...

love is a many-splendored thing.... :kiss: :lol:

hahaha!

hmm...is it cliche to say you can't remember anymore cliches?

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 31st, 2003, 02:20 AM
Save some of those kisses for me.

A4
Dec 31st, 2003, 02:22 AM
*raises eyebrow

my parents are straight...yet i have sexual feelings for both men AND women...i wonder how that happened?


I don't know. Which leads to issues of sexuality. We all don't know the complete story. And as such it becomes relevant to ask if the sexuality of parents and the environment affects the kids raised. Which has been my point in this whole thread.


Maybe, an ideal world for you will be one in which all men and women will have sex with members of their respective sex with the same frequency and pleasure as members of the opposite sex? Isn't that the beneficial results of having people desensitized to feelings of sexuality and differences?

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 31st, 2003, 02:26 AM
Being desensitized in the sense discussed doesn't mean having no sexual orientation of your own. It means not treating the sexual orientations of others as bad (unless it impels them to harm someone, or whatever). At least that's what I thought we were talking about.

No that I think it would be a bad thing if were all totally bi, I just don't see it ever happening.

A4
Dec 31st, 2003, 02:31 AM
Being desensitized in the sense discussed doesn't mean having no sexual orientation of your own. It means not treating the sexual orientations of others as bad (unless it impels them to harm someone, or whatever). At least that's what I thought we were talking about.

No that I think it would be a bad thing if were all totally bi, I just don't see it ever happening.

That's the whole point. I don't recall any one here saying gays or the gay lifestyle is bad. I just recall one person objecting on the basis of religion. All I said was if being raised up in a same-sex environment predisposes me to being gay (and no-one seems to prove that there's absolutely zero chance of that happening), I'd rather be raised in a straight household because I can't do without women.

GBFH
Dec 31st, 2003, 02:49 AM
That's the whole point. I don't recall any one here saying gays or the gay lifestyle is bad. I just recall one person objecting on the basis of religion. All I said was if being raised up in a same-sex environment predisposes me to being gay (and no-one seems to prove that there's absolutely zero chance of that happening), I'd rather be raised in a straight household because I can't do without women.

and my point is, there's no definite proof that being raised in a gay household will make YOU gay, as well. there are plenty of stories about straight households having gay kids...so what's to think the opposite wouldn't happen?

GBFH
Dec 31st, 2003, 02:50 AM
^^ in other words....there are a multitude of factors that influence your eventual sexual orientation. just because i was raised in a straight household...doesn't mean that i will be straight.

polishprodigy
Dec 31st, 2003, 03:05 AM
Ironically, I am not really in favour of homosexual marriages (I abstain, as I disagree with it, in canada we are legalizing it, i prefer "civil unions"), BUT I do agree with gay couples adopting children. There are so many children in foster care and who are awaiting to be adopted, that I think that many gay couples would be far more capable of raising a child than many straight parents (particularly those who are addicts, abusive and neglectful). So, i do agree with it.

DutchieGirl
Dec 31st, 2003, 03:07 AM
I guess we're just on two different wavelengths and will agree to disagree.

Just for the record. I don't agree that not particularly caring to see two men kiss the same way and with the same feelings I have when I see a man and woman kiss, makes me close-minded. I like having different feelings about women that's all.

I don't know if I'd still feel this way if I'd been brought up by two males.

The jury's still out on whether being gay is totally genetic or there is an environmental component. For instance how does the environment in prisons promote homosexuality? If its all genetic, there shouldn't be an increase in homosexuality in prisons, right? Heteros should simply not be attracted to other guys.......
As long as there may be an environmental component, asking the kind of sexual environment a kid is brought up in, and wondering if that could affect his/her sexuality and whether the kid should have a say or not definitely doesn't make me close-minded. At least, not to myself.

As to differences and growing up .......... Great. I'm all for respecting anyone and all differences. Just when does respect for differences cross over to being asked to join? Do you have to be a part to realize people have differences and to respect those differences? Can't I respect gays, have gay friends etc etc and at the same time prefering to be brought up in as heterosexual a household as possible for the simple reason that to me, sex/women go hand in hand and wouldn't want to be exposed to anything to blunt that feel?


You talk about an increased amount of homosexuality in jails...while there may be an increased amount of homosexual SEX in jails, does it necessarily mean that the people engaged in these acts are now homosexual? With that I mean...in jail, there is only one sex around you all the time... I'm guessing, like most people, criminals still get horny and wanna screw...when there's not an abundance of the opposite sex ready and willing, it may push them to have same sex sex...but does it mean that if/when they get out of jail they will have homosexual relationships from then on...I hardly think so!

DutchieGirl
Dec 31st, 2003, 03:10 AM
*raises eyebrow

my parents are straight...yet i have sexual feelings for both men AND women...i wonder how that happened?

I'm right there with ya on that one!

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 31st, 2003, 03:12 AM
Besides, with all respect, A4, your argument strikes me as illogical.

You like women so you're glad to be heterosexual not homosexual. Hang on though, since you like women, you couldn't be anything *other* than heterosexual. If you liked guys you'd be saying, "Thank God I turned out to be homosexual!"

But there just is no logically possible scenario in which you'd be going around gnashing your teeth saying: "I like women. What a pity I'm homosexual. :fiery: " It doesn't even make sense.

So where's the problem? :confused: :shrug:

I think that people's sexuality is indeed caused by lots of factors, including genetic ones, but I just can't see the problem, even if there was a higher probability of turning out to be gay if raised in a gay household.

DutchieGirl
Dec 31st, 2003, 03:15 AM
That's the whole point. I don't recall any one here saying gays or the gay lifestyle is bad. I just recall one person objecting on the basis of religion. All I said was if being raised up in a same-sex environment predisposes me to being gay (and no-one seems to prove that there's absolutely zero chance of that happening), I'd rather be raised in a straight household because I can't do without women.

:rolleyes: Seriously, are you so naieve? Of course growing up in a gay family you are not gonna be 100% predisposed to not being gay... but growing up in a hetero family doesn't make you 100% predisposed to being hetero either. Seeing as in many countries gays can't even marry, let alone adopt, and many gay couples don't have kids, where the hell do you think all the gay/bi people in the world came from? HETERO families!!!

GBFH
Dec 31st, 2003, 03:16 AM
:rolleyes: Seriously, are you so naieve? Of course growing up in a gay family you are not gonna be 100% predisposed to not being gay... but growing up in a hetero family doesn't make you 100% predisposed to being hetero either. Seeing as in many countries gays can't even marry, let alone adopt, and many gay couples don't have kids, where the hell do you think all the gay/bi people in the world came from? HETERO families!!!

BRILLIANT :) *golf clap

DutchieGirl
Dec 31st, 2003, 03:21 AM
BRILLIANT :) *golf clap*takes a bow* ;)

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 31st, 2003, 03:24 AM
*Gives sarah a playful kick in the butt while she's bowing.*

DutchieGirl
Dec 31st, 2003, 03:30 AM
*turns around and kicks joui in the balls - just coz he's a man* :p

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 31st, 2003, 03:50 AM
*removes groin guard and smiles at Sarah (while preparing to avoid any further such violent acts :eek: ).*

Crazy Canuck
Dec 31st, 2003, 03:50 AM
All Children need loving parents, they need a warm environment and home to live and thrive, I just can't see it been done in a same sex relationship, This is where the Children need to come first, need to be remembered, there the ones of the next generation, and it is not afforable to leave them in this environment.


For lack of a better way of putting it, this is a load of prejudiced crap. It's not the closed mindedness that bothers me, so much as the complete and total lack of self awareness. Very big of you to write such prejudiced crap and then leave the thread :rolleyes:

I was born into a "straight" household, which was eventually split in half by a divorce. The result of the divorce was years of neglect, abuse, and emotional difficulties for all parties involved.

Phew! Thank GOD I was raised in a warm household full of love where I could thrive! Imagine all the fun that I would have missed out on if I was raised by a homosexual couple?

¤CharlDa¤
Dec 31st, 2003, 03:54 AM
Great step!!!! That's a great thing! So much children live in poverty...Why should we let them there jsut cause of difference? Acceptance........

Crazy Canuck
Dec 31st, 2003, 04:07 AM
As to biases, everyone has them. That's why I'd want the kids to be given as neutral an environment until a time they can make their own responsible decisions.

Erm... a "neutral environment"? It's awfully hard for you to define what is "neutral" without imposing some of your own biases on others. You might as well have said "normal" since that is quite obviously what you meant.

I fail to see how an environment with same sex parents is any less "neutral" than an environment with heterosexual parents.

What one earth do the sex of the parents involved have to do with the childs ability to develop normally until the "time they can make their own responsibl decisions"? Come again?

A4
Dec 31st, 2003, 04:08 AM
Besides, with all respect, A4, your argument strikes me as illogical.

You like women so you're glad to be heterosexual not homosexual. Hang on though, since you like women, you couldn't be anything *other* than heterosexual. If you liked guys you'd be saying, "Thank God I turned out to be homosexual!"

But there just is no logically possible scenario in which you'd be going around gnashing your teeth saying: "I like women. What a pity I'm homosexual. :fiery: " It doesn't even make sense.

So where's the problem? :confused: :shrug:

I think that people's sexuality is indeed caused by lots of factors, including genetic ones, but I just can't see the problem, even if there was a higher probability of turning out to be gay if raised in a gay household.

My point is does my upbringing (and environment) have an effect on who I am now in terms of sexuality? If it does, then I'd like to be able to have a say in how I'm brought up. And how other kids are brought up because there may be an influence on their sexuality. That's all.

I also don't understand what you're saying. Where did I say anything about being a homosexual and liking women??????

A4
Dec 31st, 2003, 04:10 AM
and my point is, there's no definite proof that being raised in a gay household will make YOU gay, as well. there are plenty of stories about straight households having gay kids...so what's to think the opposite wouldn't happen?


All right. Multiple factors may determine the ultimate sexuality of a child. At least we can agree on that. I'll answer your question in a few more posts.

Crazy Canuck
Dec 31st, 2003, 04:11 AM
hmm....now that i think about it...there's a possibility that if you grow up in a same-sex household you'll experience a hetero bias.


I'm not sure if you were being entirely serious?

People are exposed to the heterosexual lifestyle everytime they step out the door, read a book, or turn on the tv. Not necesarily so with homosexual lifestyles. A parent can shelter their children from homosexuality in society fairly effectively for sometime. You'd have to never let your children outside for them to not be exposed to heterosexuality. Thus, the possibility of the children in a heterosexual family being ignorant and forming negative stereotypes about homosexuals would be far greater than the likelyhood of the opposite occuring.

A4
Dec 31st, 2003, 04:12 AM
You talk about an increased amount of homosexuality in jails...while there may be an increased amount of homosexual SEX in jails, does it necessarily mean that the people engaged in these acts are now homosexual? With that I mean...in jail, there is only one sex around you all the time... I'm guessing, like most people, criminals still get horny and wanna screw...when there's not an abundance of the opposite sex ready and willing, it may push them to have same sex sex...but does it mean that if/when they get out of jail they will have homosexual relationships from then on...I hardly think so!

All right. So you agree that the environment a person is in may influence him? Such that a normally straight person may start being gay?

Crazy Canuck
Dec 31st, 2003, 04:13 AM
Ironically, I am not really in favour of homosexual marriages (I abstain, as I disagree with it, in canada we are legalizing it, i prefer "civil unions"), BUT I do agree with gay couples adopting children. There are so many children in foster care and who are awaiting to be adopted, that I think that many gay couples would be far more capable of raising a child than many straight parents (particularly those who are addicts, abusive and neglectful). So, i do agree with it.

Meh... I don't like the idea of "civil unions". All that sounds like to me is a fancy way of saying "alright.. we'll allow you some form of 'marriage', but no way are you good enough to have everything that we do. You're different, and we're doing to do everything we can to make sure that you know it".

Perhaps I'm missing the point, but that's how I feel about that issue ;)

GBFH
Dec 31st, 2003, 04:13 AM
I'm not sure if you were being entirely serious?

People are exposed to the heterosexual lifestyle everytime they step out the door, read a book, or turn on the tv. Not necesarily so with homosexual lifestyles. A parent can shelter their children from homosexuality in society fairly effectively for sometime. You'd have to never let your children outside for them to not be exposed to heterosexuality. Thus, the possibility of the children in a heterosexual family being ignorant and forming negative stereotypes about homosexuals would be far greater than the likelyhood of the opposite occuring.

i'm not sure most of the time, either.

hmm....hadn't thought of that :)

GBFH
Dec 31st, 2003, 04:14 AM
All right. So you agree that the environment a person is in may influence him? Such that a normally straight person may start being gay?

sure...if you have no other options available to you.

Crazy Canuck
Dec 31st, 2003, 04:17 AM
All right. So you agree that the environment a person is in may influence him? Such that a normally straight person may start being gay?
I think that you missed the point...

One doesn't start "being gay". In a situation like prison, you have men (and women) who may be in jail for the rest of their lives. Thus, forming bonds with the opposite sex is no longer an option for them. In order to deal with the loneliness (sexual and emotional deprivation) they form bonds with the only people available to them: those of the same sex. This doesn't necessarily make these people homosexuals. Homosexuality is a sexual preference. These people no longer have an option, if they want to engage in intimate relationships. Given the option, it's likely that many of them would never have acted in a homosexual manner - aside from those who were homosexual in the first place.

This is not fact, mind you. It's merely my opinion.

A4
Dec 31st, 2003, 04:17 AM
:rolleyes: Seriously, are you so naieve? Of course growing up in a gay family you are not gonna be 100% predisposed to not being gay... but growing up in a hetero family doesn't make you 100% predisposed to being hetero either. Seeing as in many countries gays can't even marry, let alone adopt, and many gay couples don't have kids, where the hell do you think all the gay/bi people in the world came from? HETERO families!!!

When I say environment, I don't mean just the family. Parents sexuality might be one. I don't know. Spending time alone with members of the same sex might be another. I think I've come across statistics showing homosexuality being higher in single-sex schools. There are a myriad of other factors which are all environmental, rather than genetic, including a parent's sexual orientation, which could confuse or influence a child's sexuality. At least, I think so.......

Crazy Canuck
Dec 31st, 2003, 04:20 AM
When I say environment, I don't mean just the family. Parents sexuality might be one. I don't know. Spending time alone with members of the same sex might be another. I think I've come across statistics showing homosexuality being higher in single-sex schools. There are a myriad of other factors which are all environmental, rather than genetic, including a parent's sexual orientation, which could confuse or influence a child's sexuality. At least, I think so.......
It's been mentioned, but I'll repeat it -

If the parents sexuality is such a determining factor in the childs sexuality, then why do so many straight parents end up having gay children? Should we worry about the effects that straight parents are having on their childs sexuality?

You can't have it both ways...

A4
Dec 31st, 2003, 04:21 AM
Erm... a "neutral environment"? It's awfully hard for you to define what is "neutral" without imposing some of your own biases on others. You might as well have said "normal" since that is quite obviously what you meant.

I fail to see how an environment with same sex parents is any less "neutral" than an environment with heterosexual parents.

What one earth do the sex of the parents involved have to do with the childs ability to develop normally until the "time they can make their own responsibl decisions"? Come again?

Yes, you have a point there. Who gets to define neutrality? Which gets back to using myself as a reference. Would I want to be brought up in a situation which may/may not influence my sexuality away from liking women? The answer is no.

Crazy Canuck
Dec 31st, 2003, 04:22 AM
My point is does my upbringing (and environment) have an effect on who I am now in terms of sexuality? If it does, then I'd like to be able to have a say in how I'm brought up. And how other kids are brought up because there may be an influence on their sexuality. That's all.

I also don't understand what you're saying. Where did I say anything about being a homosexual and liking women??????
In which case, your problem with this issue is obviously that you look at homosexuality in a negative light. If you didn't, this wouldn't be such an issue for you.

decemberlove
Dec 31st, 2003, 04:22 AM
When I say environment, I don't mean just the family. Parents sexuality might be one. I don't know. Spending time alone with members of the same sex might be another. I think I've come across statistics showing homosexuality being higher in single-sex schools. There are a myriad of other factors which are all environmental, rather than genetic, including a parent's sexual orientation, which could confuse or influence a child's sexuality. At least, I think so.......

so by this, we can assume that as a young boy, you were surrounded by only girls? your closest friends were only girls? funny, cos usually the stereotype is the complete opposite.

btw, you can find statistics and bullshit study results for any side of any issue.

samhatz
Dec 31st, 2003, 04:23 AM
Gender is not socially constructed... There is a big difference both physically and mentally between a man and a woman. I don't understand why the modern society wants to deny the differences and sees everyone as an individual.

Like I said, I don't have a problem with adoption by gay parents, however I also think a kid needs more than love and having 2 parents of the same gender is far from being ideal.

Actually - gender IS socially constructed with the exception of physical characteristics... everything else about gender is socially constructed..if you can name one thing that isn't I'll eat my words!

A4
Dec 31st, 2003, 04:23 AM
Erm... a "neutral environment"? It's awfully hard for you to define what is "neutral" without imposing some of your own biases on others. You might as well have said "normal" since that is quite obviously what you meant.

I fail to see how an environment with same sex parents is any less "neutral" than an environment with heterosexual parents.

What one earth do the sex of the parents involved have to do with the childs ability to develop normally until the "time they can make their own responsibl decisions"? Come again?


As to making their own responsible decisions, I meant a time they knew they were definitely gay. I know kids may be a bit confused in their sexuality at a very early age until a time they've sorted themselves out enough to know they are definitely gay.

samhatz
Dec 31st, 2003, 04:24 AM
nice discussion :)
..all I am goonna say is.."If I were a son of two fathers I would kill myself as soon as possible, If I had two moms I think I could live with that but still prospect of suicide very possible"

If YOU were the son of 2 fathers/mothers you'd be a lot more tolerant and more likely NOT to have killed yourself!

Crazy Canuck
Dec 31st, 2003, 04:25 AM
Yes, you have a point there. Who gets to define neutrality? Which gets back to using myself as a reference. Would I want to be brought up in a situation which may/may not influence my sexuality away from liking women? The answer is no.
You've always liked women. I don't understand how it is that you think anything could have changed that... or if something could have changed it, why this would make any difference to how you felt now. If your upbringing had somehow, erm, "made you" homosexuality (I use the quotes, because I don't buy that environment plays a large role. Environment plays a role in expression, not the core feelings, imo.), would you not be stating that you love men and wouldn't want it other way?

I'm sorry... I just see this as a very weak point.

decemberlove
Dec 31st, 2003, 04:26 AM
i want an answer to my question, dammit.

Crazy Canuck
Dec 31st, 2003, 04:28 AM
As to making their own responsible decisions, I meant a time they knew they were definitely gay. I know kids may be a bit confused in their sexuality at a very early age until a time they've sorted themselves out enough to know they are definitely gay.

Okay.

So why is it that growing up in a household with homosexual parents is going to confuse the child any further? I would think that such a household would be forced to provide the child with a better education on matters of sexuality than a heterosexual household would. Many young children who are gay struggle with their feelings because they don't have any foundation on which to understand them. I don't see how a child from a homosexual household would have the same problem; they would have both hetero and homosexual influences in their life.

A4
Dec 31st, 2003, 04:31 AM
In which case, your problem with this issue is obviously that you look at homosexuality in a negative light. If you didn't, this wouldn't be such an issue for you.

I think I already answered this. I won't ask to be gay, not because I see homosexuality as negative but I like being into women.

BTW. I can't keep up with all the replies........

A4
Dec 31st, 2003, 04:31 AM
i want an answer to my question, dammit.

what was the question? If I was brought up surrounded by women?

I think so. and men too.

A4
Dec 31st, 2003, 04:35 AM
You've always liked women. I don't understand how it is that you think anything could have changed that... or if something could have changed it, why this would make any difference to how you felt now. If your upbringing had somehow, erm, "made you" homosexuality (I use the quotes, because I don't buy that environment plays a large role. Environment plays a role in expression, not the core feelings, imo.), would you not be stating that you love men and wouldn't want it other way?

I'm sorry... I just see this as a very weak point.


Exactly. If upbringing had made me gay, sure I'd say that. As a child though, shouldn't I get to say what kind of sexuality I ultimately end up like? That's if env. plays a large part. Should it matter if I turn out gay or not? To me it should. To you it seems not to matter. Diiferent strokes..... thats all.

A4
Dec 31st, 2003, 04:41 AM
To everyone..........

Once you start bringing in issues of poverty, love, education, opportunities ..........the debate takes on a whole new meaning. I was basically arguing on the basis of sexuality alone, controlling for economic factors etc.


I think I'm done on this subject for now, unless asked a question directly.

A4
Dec 31st, 2003, 04:54 AM
It's been mentioned, but I'll repeat it -

If the parents sexuality is such a determining factor in the childs sexuality, then why do so many straight parents end up having gay children? Should we worry about the effects that straight parents are having on their childs sexuality?

You can't have it both ways...

I missed this. I thought I answered that? You seem to believe its entirely genetic if a person turns out gay or straight. No outside influence is possible. For me, I don't think so, at least not now. A gay child from straight parents may come about as a result of being in a single sex school (boarding schools) for example.

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 31st, 2003, 05:07 AM
You've always liked women. I don't understand how it is that you think anything could have changed that... or if something could have changed it, why this would make any difference to how you felt now. If your upbringing had somehow, erm, "made you" homosexuality (I use the quotes, because I don't buy that environment plays a large role. Environment plays a role in expression, not the core feelings, imo.), would you not be stating that you love men and wouldn't want it other way?

I'm sorry... I just see this as a very weak point.

This is what I was trying to say, too.

It's a surprisingly difficult point to explain clearly, but he is being illogical.

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 31st, 2003, 05:17 AM
Actually - gender IS socially constructed with the exception of physical characteristics... everything else about gender is socially constructed..

That's an awfully controversial view to be expressing dogmatically. I think it's pretty apparent that a great deal about male and female psychology is genetically coded, not socially constructed. The "it's all socially constructed" view is soooooooooo last century.

Crazy Canuck
Dec 31st, 2003, 06:34 AM
I missed this. I thought I answered that? You seem to believe its entirely genetic if a person turns out gay or straight. No outside influence is possible.

That is essentially how I feel, yes. I feel that the environment plays a role in the expression of sexuality, but that it is not a determining factor in sexuality itself.

For example, generally, it's far "easier" (lack of a better word) to be openly homosexual in a large metropolitan area like NYC, than it is in the middle of Buttfuck Nowhere, population you. If you grow up in a diverse, tolerant culture, you're more likely to feel less ashamed about who you are, and thus, express yourself as you please. Furthermore, if there is a visible gay community (or at the least, other homosexuals expressing themselves publically), one doesn't have to feel so "alone" with their struggles. Those from Buttfuck Nowhere, population you, likely don't have that luxery.

Some say that it seems more and more people are "turning gay" these days (are you one of them?)...I say that more and more people are coming out and accepting themselves for who they truly are, because the culture is being tolerant enough to permit them to do so (that isn't to say that it's still an easy thing to come to terms with, but I would have to think that the gay community has made great strides compared with 50 years ago).

I do accept, however, that this is nothing more than my opinion. It is not fact. I am happy to listen to other points of views, and in doing so, perhaps my own will change someday.

Sorry for the rant, but I wanted to make it very clear where I stand on the issue and why ;)


For me, I don't think so, at least not now. A gay child from straight parents may come about as a result of being in a single sex school (boarding schools) for example.

Oh? So how does that explain the ones that went through public education? And why did the other children from the same boarding school not also "turn" homosexual?

I'm not trying to nitpick... I just can't see any logic whatsoever in this. That doesn't mean there isn't any, mind you.

I'd be interested to see where you are getting your information from, by the way.

Kiwi_Boy
Dec 31st, 2003, 07:14 AM
My stance:
The reason humans are here is to procreate, thats why your reading this right now because a man and a woman had sex and you were born, but thats the story of birth and giving life NOT of actually raising the kids. If the creator wanted gays (i.e. two men) to have kids of their own (biologically) he would have given one a vulva, a uterus and overeys(sp lol)....and he didnt.

So with that being the case where does it leave gays?
Well not out of the picture. If kids need parents because they dont for some reason have parents of their own to love and nurture then, then they need to be loved and nurtured by someone- and gays are just as capable of that as anyone else. Im not going to get onto whether or not I agree with homosexuality-thats beside the point.

As gays cant reproduce on their own then they should have a chance to play in the role of childbearing and caring, as human being we all have that RESPONSIBILITY.

As for ludacrous allegations along the lines that "if they are raised with gays then their bound to be molested" :rolleyes:-thats bullshit-more molestation occurs from straight famiys. Same with generic abuse. With staight familys theres not always the "choice" of hving kids and this can lead to problems-with gay adoptees there is a choice and like anyone else who adopts a child they will be "investigated" as to wether or not they as PARENTS would be capable and are willing to raise a family.

Ofcourse growing up will let the kid into teasing at school, its natural and its how kids interact- "you have a different family than mine so your a poo poo head"

Messenger
Dec 31st, 2003, 07:49 AM
It's just that I cant find a word in English or a phrase to define what you said (English not my First Language) but yes thankyou second ego ;) :)

That's understandable, no problem.

Mateo Mathieu
Dec 31st, 2003, 10:39 AM
A gay child from straight parents may come about as a result of being in a single sex school (boarding schools) for example.
I'm gay and never went to a single sex school or boarding school :rolleyes: My parents are straight and they're divorced when I was baby. My mother raised me up with my two older sisters. I was the only guy under the same roof. How does it make me being gay, huh? Geez...

SpikeyAidanm
Dec 31st, 2003, 10:43 AM
A gay child from straight parents may come about as a result of being in a single sex school (boarding schools) for example.

:rolleyes:

Quote from Martina Navratilova -

"Gay people can't be turned straight; the reverse is true, too. And the myth that we're this way by choice is ridiculous. Who would want to be gay and be ostracized and prejudiced against for most of their lives? Nobody wants that. It's not a choice."

Mateo Mathieu
Dec 31st, 2003, 10:45 AM
:rolleyes:

Quote from Martina Navratilova -

"Gay people can't be turned straight; the reverse is true, too. And the myth that we're this way by choice is ridiculous. Who would want to be gay and be ostracized and prejudiced against for most of their lives? Nobody wants that. It's not a choice."
Excatly, it's not a choice lifestyle! ;)

Crazy Canuck
Dec 31st, 2003, 02:04 PM
Excatly, it's not a choice lifestyle! ;)
That isn't true... the lifestyle IS a choice. That is, you can choose to be yourself, or you can choose to "act" heterosexual. Why anybody would seriously expect or desire people to do the latter is absolutely beyond me... though sadly, some people (some of whom have posted in this thread) feel that way.

I agree with you that sexuality is not a choice, though ;)

Tompier
Dec 31st, 2003, 02:19 PM
If YOU were the son of 2 fathers/mothers you'd be a lot more tolerant and more likely NOT to have killed yourself!

PLEASE don't tell me what would I be then....
Don't tell me......you really believe that ??????
Grow up !!!

griffin
Dec 31st, 2003, 02:20 PM
Exactly. If upbringing had made me gay, sure I'd say that. As a child though, shouldn't I get to say what kind of sexuality I ultimately end up like? That's if env. plays a large part. Should it matter if I turn out gay or not? To me it should. To you it seems not to matter. Diiferent strokes..... thats all.

Are you saying you DID chose to be straight? (not would, given the option) That you had a say in your orientation - again, not that you'd have wanted one, and not that you had a say in how you acted on it. (e.g., I don't believe my sexual orientation was a choice, but I did chose/make conscious decisions about how I understand it, how I've decided to live my life)

What matters to me, and what I think should matter, is not whether you're gay, bi or straight, but whether you are allowed to become a well-adjusted you and not who someone else thinks you should be. (sorry if I'm not clear - I haven't had enough coffee today).

Growing up in a gay household won't make you gay any more than growing up in a straight household made me straight, and there's a growing body of evidence to back that up.

Tompier
Dec 31st, 2003, 02:36 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol: It really says a lot of yourself :tape:

Really ???
it is all me you know :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

gentenaire
Dec 31st, 2003, 03:34 PM
Joy and Dlove brought up some very interesting points. The roles of the father and mother have changed and are more and more alike. The days of the father going out to work while the mother stays at home to bring up the children are over. The mother and father are two equals in the relationship, I don't see much difference between what a father can teach a child to what a mother can teach. They're just two people who've both lived in the world and can share their experiences with their children. So why on earth should it matter if it's a man and a woman, two women or two men?

Also, right now lesbians can have children. It's just the gay men who're left out. That's not very fair, is it?

I don't know what the current law is for two lesbian women having children, what rights the partner of the biological mother has. Lesbians can marry, I hope that when they have children, it's not just the natural mother who has all the rights over the children.
If the law allows gays to adopt, this issue might be clearer as well. I'm all for it.

Zamboni
Dec 31st, 2003, 04:00 PM
I haven't read the full thread, but I just wanted to give my opinion.

A former friend of mine lives with her father and his husband, and they both love her, she loves them, she has no problems with them being gay whatsoever, they are just a normal family. Can anyone tell me where that would be wrong? I can't believe it would be better for her to live with her mother who doesn't love her just because her father is gay :rolleyes:

There is also a celebrity in the Netherlands who is gay and adopted 2 kids with his husband. As far as I can judge these kids live a normal life, they are taken care of well. Isn't that what's most important?

griffin
Dec 31st, 2003, 05:10 PM
Studies showed that men and women think differently. The difference are much more than just physically.

Men are women are equal in right, but fundamentally different in a lot of ways...

Yes and no - men and women do think differently to some extent, but imo it is VERY hard to separate how much of that is nature rather than nurture, since intentionally or no, we treat male and female children differently, react to them differently, from the moment we know they're male or female - something we often know before birth these days. And while I agree men and women may differ in general, when you're dealing with specific people, you'll see they don't fall one way or the other so much as across a continuum.

Hell, expectations of gender vary over time and across region, culture, and even economic station.

A4
Dec 31st, 2003, 05:28 PM
That is essentially how I feel, yes. I feel that the environment plays a role in the expression of sexuality, but that it is not a determining factor in sexuality itself.

For example, generally, it's far "easier" (lack of a better word) to be openly homosexual in a large metropolitan area like NYC, than it is in the middle of Buttfuck Nowhere, population you. If you grow up in a diverse, tolerant culture, you're more likely to feel less ashamed about who you are, and thus, express yourself as you please. Furthermore, if there is a visible gay community (or at the least, other homosexuals expressing themselves publically), one doesn't have to feel so "alone" with their struggles. Those from Buttfuck Nowhere, population you, likely don't have that luxery.

Some say that it seems more and more people are "turning gay" these days (are you one of them?)...I say that more and more people are coming out and accepting themselves for who they truly are, because the culture is being tolerant enough to permit them to do so (that isn't to say that it's still an easy thing to come to terms with, but I would have to think that the gay community has made great strides compared with 50 years ago).

I do accept, however, that this is nothing more than my opinion. It is not fact. I am happy to listen to other points of views, and in doing so, perhaps my own will change someday.

Sorry for the rant, but I wanted to make it very clear where I stand on the issue and why ;)




Oh? So how does that explain the ones that went through public education? And why did the other children from the same boarding school not also "turn" homosexual?

I'm not trying to nitpick... I just can't see any logic whatsoever in this. That doesn't mean there isn't any, mind you.

I'd be interested to see where you are getting your information from, by the way.

Okay. Interesting rant. I can't help, but feel you may be nit-picking. The boarding school example was just one I latched on because I'd come across it at various times I guess. Anyway, I went back to try to find some sources. According Johnson et al (1994), males in boarding schools are three times more likely to have a sexual experience with other males. I don't know whether to interpret that as homosexuality because according to some gays in this thread, a person can have sex with another person of the same sex, enjoy it, and still not be homosexual :confused:. Anyway, I don't claim to understand homosexuality at all, its causes, effects and how it manifests itself (like having sex with a same sex partner but not being gay), and that may be the compelling reason I may rather want to be brought up in a heterosexual household.

As to my becoming more gay, I just had to laugh. I was just waiting to be asked that. No, I'm not. Not at all. I'm just trying to look at sexuality from the perspective of being the adopted child. I think I'd be interested in the honest answers of most straight people, whether they would like to be brought up by gay or straight parents, epecially if they are not entirely sure whether being gay has a 100% genetic basis or there may be an environmental component.

BTW the reference for the cited book is Johnson A.M., Wellings K., et al (1994). Sexual Attitudes and Lifestyles. Blackwell Scientific Publications. pp204-206.

A4
Dec 31st, 2003, 05:47 PM
Are you saying you DID chose to be straight? (not would, given the option) That you had a say in your orientation - again, not that you'd have wanted one, and not that you had a say in how you acted on it. (e.g., I don't believe my sexual orientation was a choice, but I did chose/make conscious decisions about how I understand it, how I've decided to live my life)

What matters to me, and what I think should matter, is not whether you're gay, bi or straight, but whether you are allowed to become a well-adjusted you and not who someone else thinks you should be. (sorry if I'm not clear - I haven't had enough coffee today).

Growing up in a gay household won't make you gay any more than growing up in a straight household made me straight, and there's a growing body of evidence to back that up.

Okay. Nice to see someone who disagrees 100% with my views but understands what I'm saying and not calling me wack.

1) Did I have a choice in being straight? Probably not but we can only answer definitively if everything about sexuality is known. What if? What if I was influenced by images I saw as a kid? Influenced by the people I looked up to? So many other components? And if there are those influences, I didn't have the chance to say either "no thanks" or "yes". But shouldn't an adopted kid somehow have a say? Or it shouldn't matter?

2)"...... What matters to me, and what I think should matter, is not whether you're gay, bi or straight, but whether you are allowed to become a well-adjusted you and not who someone else thinks you should be. (sorry if I'm not clear - I haven't had enough coffee today)........"
I agree with this totally.

3) "......Growing up in a gay household won't make you gay any more than growing up in a straight household made me straight, and there's a growing body of evidence to back that up."

Okay. Key word here. Growing. If we can scientifically establish beyond all doubts that households have absolutely no bearing on being straight or gay (or indeed, the environment), then I'm totally and all for gay adoption.

griffin
Dec 31st, 2003, 05:48 PM
I think I'd be interested in the honest answers of most straight people, whether they would like to be brought up by gay or straight parents, epecially if they are not entirely sure whether being gay has a 100% genetic basis or there may be an environmental component.


And again I would suggest that their lack of experience in the matter will cloud their answers - what might seem abnormal to someone who's grown up seeing only opposite-sex parents would seem perfectly natural to someone who has had positive contact with same-sex parents.

To answer your question about how the boarding school boys fooling around with each other could be considered not homosexual: it's the difference between orientation and behavior. For example, I'm not Jewish, but I have gone to Temple with friends.

Did you consider yourself straight before you had sex? I suppose you could argue those boys are at least bisexual (and some people believe all of us are), or you could say they're walking hormones and had no other outlet.

gentenaire
Dec 31st, 2003, 05:53 PM
According Johnson et al (1994), males in boarding schools are three times more likely to have a sexual experience with other males.

Seems only normal, no? You can only have sex with people you meet. In the case of boys in boarding school, they mostly meet other boys, hardly any girls, and this at the time in their lives when they're starting to discover what sexuality is, when they're experimenting.

This is completely different from a boy growing up with gay parents. You can have two men as parents but still meet as many girls as boys in daily life. In the end, it's those people you might consider starting a relationship with, not your parents.

gentenaire
Dec 31st, 2003, 05:58 PM
Okay. Key word here. Growing. If we can scientifically establish beyond all doubts that households have absolutely no bearing on being straight or gay (or indeed, the environment), then I'm totally and all for gay adoption.

But even if the household does influence your sexual orientation (I don't believe it does, BTW), why is that bad? If half of the population would suddenly be gay, why should that be a bad thing?

Come-on-kim
Dec 31st, 2003, 06:01 PM
I don't know what to think about the adoption by gay parents.... For me there's no problem about the fact two men or two women can adopt a child! They'll give the child as much love as a straight couple could have give! But, I think there's still a problem.. The problem is the other people, those idiots who would probably find a way to hurt mentaly the child because his parents are gay! For example some parents would say to their children not to approach a gay couple's child...

That's why I am not 100% for gay adoption! But I am not against at all... I just think the child could be hurt because of narrow-minded people

A4
Dec 31st, 2003, 06:07 PM
And again I would suggest that their lack of experience in the matter will cloud their answers - what might seem abnormal to someone who's grown up seeing only opposite-sex parents would seem perfectly natural to someone who has had positive contact with same-sex parents.

To answer your question about how the boarding school boys fooling around with each other could be considered not homosexual: it's the difference between orientation and behavior. For example, I'm not Jewish, but I have gone to Temple with friends.

Did you consider yourself straight before you had sex? I suppose you could argue those boys are at least bisexual (and some people believe all of us are), or you could say they're walking hormones and had no other outlet.

"...lack of experience will cloud judgement......." I concede we all have biases. So as much as straights may be taken to task on some views, I think gays should also realize that we're pretty much the product of our views as much as they are a product of theirs.

Boarding school (and to Beggin' too). If guys are horny with hormones runnng wild, which is easier, assuming they are 100% genetically straight: getting some cream with pictures of naked women or latching unto some broken-ass dude minding his own business? Which will be easier?

Did I consider myself straight before sex? I'm a virgin.











Okay, honest answer. Yes. Always been staight.

A4
Dec 31st, 2003, 06:19 PM
But even if the household does influence your sexual orientation (I don't believe it does, BTW), why is that bad? If half of the population would suddenly be gay, why should that be a bad thing?

I think I answered this earlier on. It isn't bad. At least, not to me. I just don't want to lose my liking for women. I wouldn't want a situation where I may say "bring on the men", as a result of my upbringing. Others are saying if I were to turn out a homosexual, I would be asking for men instead of women. But that's the whole point. I don't want that situation to come up at all, and would rather avoid it. To me my sexual orientation matters. It isn't a case of I don't mind if I'm a homosexual or heterosexual although it doesn't bother me the least in others. I hope everyone recognizes that its just a personal choice thing.

Tompier
Dec 31st, 2003, 06:22 PM
I don't know what to think about the adoption by gay parents.... For me there's no problem about the fact two men or two women can adopt a child! They'll give the child as much love as a straight couple could have give! But, I think there's still a problem.. The problem is the other people, those idiots who would probably find a way to hurt mentaly the child because his parents are gay! For example some parents would say to their children not to approach a gay couple's child...

That's why I am not 100% for gay adoption! But I am not against at all... I just think the child could be hurt because of narrow-minded people

WELL SAID

griffin
Dec 31st, 2003, 06:33 PM
OK, "clouded judgement" sounded more judgemental than I intended - what I mean is that if they have no experience seeing or being around gay families, of course the idea is more likely to seem strange to them.

I think I answered this earlier on. It isn't bad. At least, not to me. I just don't want to lose my liking for women. I wouldn't want a situation where I may say "bring on the men", as a result of my upbringing. Others are saying if I were to turn out a homosexual, I would be asking for men instead of women. But that's the whole point. I don't want that situation to come up at all, and would rather avoid it. To me my sexual orientation matters. It isn't a case of I don't mind if I'm a homosexual or heterosexual although it doesn't bother me the least in others. I hope everyone recognizes that its just a personal choice thing.

lol, and yet you say you have always been straight, and don't really seem to view your heterosexuality as a choice, other than the vague fear something somehow might (or might have) make you like men :) No one's trying to steal your sexuality - it is what it is. But let me suggest that just as having grown up around same-sex couples as well as heterosexual ones might have made you less squeamish about the idea of two men kissing, if you did in fact have a natural attraction to men, that attraction might not seem so bothersome to you, but well, natural.

I really wouldn't worry so much about it ;)

griffin
Dec 31st, 2003, 06:38 PM
The problem is the other people, those idiots who would probably find a way to hurt mentaly the child because his parents are gay! For example some parents would say to their children not to approach a gay couple's child...

That's why I am not 100% for gay adoption! But I am not against at all... I just think the child could be hurt because of narrow-minded people

So should black people not have children because of racism? Should Jewish people not have children because of anti-semitism? The world can be an ugly place, maybe we should all stop breeding.

People/children get picked on and treated unfairly for myriad reasons - it is a parent's job to help them believe in themselves anyway, and teach them how to respond.

gentenaire
Dec 31st, 2003, 06:39 PM
I think I answered this earlier on. It isn't bad. At least, not to me. I just don't want to lose my liking for women. I wouldn't want a situation where I may say "bring on the men", as a result of my upbringing. Others are saying if I were to turn out a homosexual, I would be asking for men instead of women. But that's the whole point. I don't want that situation to come up at all, and would rather avoid it. To me my sexual orientation matters. It isn't a case of I don't mind if I'm a homosexual or heterosexual although it doesn't bother me the least in others. I hope everyone recognizes that its just a personal choice thing.


What you're saying doesn't make sense at all. You feel threatened that you might start falling for guys, you're scared because you like women. But if you like women so much that you're so scared, there's not much chance of you ever being gay, is there?

How on earth can you be scared of liking something you don't like? Or scared of suddenly not liking anymore what you like now. What's there to be scared of? I don't get it.

I don't like oisters, I'm not scared that I might suddenly like them. Right now, I don't want to eat them, if I was to like them, then I wouldn't mind eating them.


And I hope everyone recognises that it's NOT a personal choice thing.

Mateo Mathieu
Jan 1st, 2004, 03:21 AM
You don't want to losing interested in women? That sounds like scared of being gay and want to kill yourself! :rolleyes:

Mateo Mathieu
Jan 1st, 2004, 03:22 AM
By the way, I'm gay and I still like women as friends but it doesn't make me being bisexual.

samhatz
Jan 1st, 2004, 11:05 AM
PLEASE don't tell me what would I be then....
Don't tell me......you really believe that ??????
Grow up !!!

Tompier.... I have no need to grow up - I'm quite content with my current state of maturity.

The data (granted, I don't always buy it) suggests that children of homosexual parents are more tolerant, open minded and and at least as stable than children of heterosexual parents...

It's important that people actually think before they speak.. you seem to be one of the only ones on this board who does not!


To everybody else, great to see such vigorous, even though heated, argument!

Tompier
Jan 1st, 2004, 11:28 AM
Tompier.... I have no need to grow up - I'm quite content with my current state of maturity.

The data (granted, I don't always buy it) suggests that children of homosexual parents are more tolerant, open minded and and at least as stable than children of heterosexual parents...


Where do you get this data from ????? Tell me, suppose you are a child of gay parrents and since you were bornn stupid people hate you becouse of fact that your parents are gay, they forbid their children visit or even talk with you, you have many worries in school you can be evev laughing stock. PEOPLE can be CRUEL more then anything else. So it is very hard for child who growns up in environment like this can be so much tolerant.

arn
Jan 1st, 2004, 11:41 AM
Where do you get this data from ????? Tell me, suppose you are a child of gay parrents and since you were bornn stupid people hate you becouse of fact that your parents are gay, they forbid their children visit or even talk with you, you have many worries in school you can be evev laughing stock. PEOPLE can be CRUEL more then anything else. So it is very hard for child who growns up in environment like this can be so much tolerant.

Children between 0 and 9-12 don't judge eachother on the parents the other kid has, they rather pick on things they can actually see (glasses, clothes, being bad in football,...), for them it's absolutely normal somebody can have 2 daddy's/mummy's, thet never really thought about it.

By the time a child of gay-parents enters the age where it's possible other people will make fun of him/her because of his parents (it becomes less and less likely everyday because hetero-parents raise their children this way the children know it's not a thing to make fun with/it's normal, the gay-parents can protect their children against such kind of behaviour.

I only hope YOU will raise your children in a way they consider gays normal, a small step for a better world :)

arn
Jan 1st, 2004, 11:54 AM
more so, because gay-parents have to adopt children, they will ,on the average, be more 'welcome' as a child of hetero-couples and be brought up in a caring envirement. Adoption isn't done in 1-2-3 and only done after carefull consideration, this also make the chance higher for the child to frow up in a loving, financial stable family.

Zamboni
Jan 1st, 2004, 11:57 AM
I don't know what to think about the adoption by gay parents.... For me there's no problem about the fact two men or two women can adopt a child! They'll give the child as much love as a straight couple could have give! But, I think there's still a problem.. The problem is the other people, those idiots who would probably find a way to hurt mentaly the child because his parents are gay! For example some parents would say to their children not to approach a gay couple's child...

That's why I am not 100% for gay adoption! But I am not against at all... I just think the child could be hurt because of narrow-minded people
Children can get bullied for many reasons, what matters most is their own attitude. When the kid doesn't have a problem with their parents being gay, they will carry that out to others, and there will be no problem really.

Brαm
Jan 1st, 2004, 12:26 PM
Where do you get this data from ????? Tell me, suppose you are a child of gay parrents and since you were bornn stupid people hate you becouse of fact that your parents are gay, they forbid their children visit or even talk with you, you have many worries in school you can be evev laughing stock. PEOPLE can be CRUEL more then anything else. So it is very hard for child who growns up in environment like this can be so much tolerant.
What would you do if you ever had a son, who turned out to be gay?

Just wondering....

Tompier
Jan 1st, 2004, 01:27 PM
What would you do if you ever had a son, who turned out to be gay?

Just wondering....

What kind of question is that ? Who do you think I am ?
Gay is not the same as murderer, rapist, idiot etc.....
I would do the same as I had a son/daughter tourned out to be suffer on cancer, haempohilia etc
Figure it out.......

Experimentee
Jan 1st, 2004, 01:42 PM
Where do you get this data from ????? Tell me, suppose you are a child of gay parrents and since you were bornn stupid people hate you becouse of fact that your parents are gay, they forbid their children visit or even talk with you, you have many worries in school you can be evev laughing stock. PEOPLE can be CRUEL more then anything else. So it is very hard for child who growns up in environment like this can be so much tolerant.

Giving homosexuals the same rights as everyone else is the only step towards achieving more tolerance towards them, so their children will not be teased in school. Gay people get teased now at school anyway, but if a lot of them were allowed to adopt, in the future people might start seeing it as normal and not be against it anymore.

Say we were in the USA in the 30's in the times of segregation, Your argument would be like saying black people shouldnt be allowed into white schools and vice versa, because they would be teased by the white kids, but how is anyone supposed to gain tolerance and respect when they are being treated as different from the start? At least if everyone was treated the same, there might be teasing at first, but a few years later it would be accepted.

Brαm
Jan 1st, 2004, 01:48 PM
What kind of question is that ? Who do you think I am ?
Gay is not the same as murderer, rapist, idiot etc.....
I would do the same as I had a son/daughter tourned out to be suffer on cancer, haempohilia etc
Figure it out.......
If being gay is not a bad thing, why would you kill yourself if you were the child of 2 gay ppl then? :confused:

moby
Jan 1st, 2004, 01:52 PM
If being gay is not a bad thing, why would you kill yourself if you were the child of 2 gay ppl then? :confused:

he's trying to say that being gay is like having a terminal illness :o

Tompier
Jan 1st, 2004, 02:00 PM
Say we were in the USA in the 30's in the times of segregation, Your argument would be like saying black people shouldnt be allowed into white schools and vice versa, because they would be teased by the white kids, but how is anyone supposed to gain tolerance and respect when they are being treated as different from the start? At least if everyone was treated the same, there might be teasing at first, but a few years later it would be accepted.

You are talking about black people and white people. Have you seen "Remember the Titans" ?? Recomand !!! It wouldn't be my arguments becouse it is totally different. Now it is not between straight people and gay people. We are talking about the adoption. Don't forget about baby. Maybe this thread is uselles becouse we are talking abuut our fellings but fellings of adopted babies are the one that count more. Is there someone on the board who was upbringed by gay parents ?? He would tell us what is it like. Maybe I just rushed to much with my opinion, becouse I haven't experienced that kind of situation but it is not the same as what you just said.

Zamboni
Jan 1st, 2004, 02:13 PM
You are talking about black people and white people. Have you seen "Remember the Titans" ?? Recomand !!! It wouldn't be my arguments becouse it is totally different. Now it is not between straight people and gay people. We are talking about the adoption. Don't forget about baby. Maybe this thread is uselles becouse we are talking abuut our fellings but fellings of adopted babies are the one that count more. Is there someone on the board who was upbringed by gay parents ?? He would tell us what is it like. Maybe I just rushed to much with my opinion, becouse I haven't experienced that kind of situation but it is not the same as what you just said.
I have told you that my former best friend is raised by gay parents, and I told you that she is absolutely fine with it, that there aren't any problems at all - there you have your first hand experience.

Tompier
Jan 1st, 2004, 02:13 PM
he's trying to say that being gay is like having a terminal illness :o
nice irony :rolleyes:
BROM LISTEN !!!!!! You know something about breakdown ?? People from "good families" suffer from that. Realize child who is attacked by others for a years and the reason is that his parents are gay. I am very happy to hear that all of you live in such tollerant places. I really am.
But we won't avoid it becouse there always be more.....you know ?? There is no prerson that I know (even gay) that think it is a good idea.

Tompier
Jan 1st, 2004, 02:19 PM
I have told you that my former best friend is raised by gay parents, and I told you that she is absolutely fine with it, that there aren't any problems at all - there you have your first hand experience.

What is the case ?? Was She raised from the little or was she teenager when her father realized that he is gay ?? If it is the second one then she was raised already.

Zamboni
Jan 1st, 2004, 02:22 PM
What is the case ?? Was She raised from the little or was she teenager when her father realized that he is gay ?? If it is the second one then she was raised already.
I think she was 4 when her father got together with his current husband, so no, she wasn't raised already.

Tompier
Jan 1st, 2004, 02:26 PM
I think she was 4 when her father got together with his current husband, so no, she wasn't raised already.


I would like to see that but If that is true:clap2: for them and all the people around them.

Zamboni
Jan 1st, 2004, 02:27 PM
I would like to see that but If that is true:clap2: for them and all the people around them.
oh so you're not believing me? :rolleyes:

Messenger
Jan 1st, 2004, 02:36 PM
Well the Dutch are a lot more liberal than the Polish. It doesn't surprise me that the Dutch guy has a friend with gay parents, and the Polish guy says he would commit suicide if that was him ;)

Anyway, I know which place I'd rather live.

DutchieGirl
Jan 1st, 2004, 02:45 PM
All right. So you agree that the environment a person is in may influence him? Such that a normally straight person may start being gay?

No, that is not what I said, and I very much doubt that unless a person wants to have sex with someone of the same sex that they will...regardless of environment they are brought up with. It's not like gay parents are gonna sit there and tell the kid they have to be gay as well (although in hetero families this can happen that parents tell their kids they have to be straight to be accepted). But if you want to twist my words then fine, yes, environment CAN play a key (but not a big one) in sexuality...but I'd say that alot more gay people act straight because of the hetero environment they live in than would hetero people acting gay because of their environment. DOn't forget that there aren't that many gay people in the world compared to straight anyway, so really, how many gay couples do you think we are talking about? It's not like they are gonna adopt half the world's population of kids and brainwash them all into being gay!

And what you are saying smacks of homophobia, I'm sorry...because you say" what if the "gay" environment makes kids gay...but you don't consider what it's like for a gay kid in a straight environment either...

Zamboni
Jan 1st, 2004, 02:48 PM
Well the Dutch are a lot more liberal than the Polish. It doesn't surprise me that the Dutch guy has a friend with gay parents, and the Polish guy says he would commit suicide if that was him ;)

Anyway, I know which place I'd rather live.
:wavey: I'm a girl ;)

DutchieGirl
Jan 1st, 2004, 02:51 PM
I think that you missed the point...

One doesn't start "being gay". In a situation like prison, you have men (and women) who may be in jail for the rest of their lives. Thus, forming bonds with the opposite sex is no longer an option for them. In order to deal with the loneliness (sexual and emotional deprivation) they form bonds with the only people available to them: those of the same sex. This doesn't necessarily make these people homosexuals. Homosexuality is a sexual preference. These people no longer have an option, if they want to engage in intimate relationships. Given the option, it's likely that many of them would never have acted in a homosexual manner - aside from those who were homosexual in the first place.

This is not fact, mind you. It's merely my opinion.

lol yeah, that's basically what I said! ;)

DutchieGirl
Jan 1st, 2004, 03:06 PM
I missed this. I thought I answered that? You seem to believe its entirely genetic if a person turns out gay or straight. No outside influence is possible. For me, I don't think so, at least not now. A gay child from straight parents may come about as a result of being in a single sex school (boarding schools) for example.OK let's use an example: ME! (I'm a 24y.o. lesbian)

* no one else in my family is gay
*never went to a single sex school (boarding or otherwise)
*have had friends of both sexes all my life
*never knew any gay people growing up, as my Dad is homophobic
*never saw any gay people on tv until a couple of years ago
*didn't even realise I was gay until I was 19 when my boyfriend asked me about it because I was always talking to girls. See - because of my environment growing up in such a hetero "space" I didn't even think about giving my thoughts and feelings a name until I was 19. It took my boyfriend to ask me if I was gay for me to realise that's what I was feeling!

So tell me know how my environment MADE me gay??? I'd say I've had one of the most hetero upbringings anyone can ever have!

DutchieGirl
Jan 1st, 2004, 03:18 PM
Okay. Interesting rant. I can't help, but feel you may be nit-picking. The boarding school example was just one I latched on because I'd come across it at various times I guess. Anyway, I went back to try to find some sources. According Johnson et al (1994), males in boarding schools are three times more likely to have a sexual experience with other males. I don't know whether to interpret that as homosexuality because according to some gays in this thread, a person can have sex with another person of the same sex, enjoy it, and still not be homosexual :confused:. Anyway, I don't claim to understand homosexuality at all, its causes, effects and how it manifests itself (like having sex with a same sex partner but not being gay), and that may be the compelling reason I may rather want to be brought up in a heterosexual household.

As to my becoming more gay, I just had to laugh. I was just waiting to be asked that. No, I'm not. Not at all. I'm just trying to look at sexuality from the perspective of being the adopted child. I think I'd be interested in the honest answers of most straight people, whether they would like to be brought up by gay or straight parents, epecially if they are not entirely sure whether being gay has a 100% genetic basis or there may be an environmental component.

BTW the reference for the cited book is Johnson A.M., Wellings K., et al (1994). Sexual Attitudes and Lifestyles. Blackwell Scientific Publications. pp204-206.

And how's about the opinions of gay people who would have rather been brought up with gay parents as it would make their life a whole lot easier than having to come out to hetero (and often homophobic) parents?

DutchieGirl
Jan 1st, 2004, 03:23 PM
Okay. Key word here. Growing. If we can scientifically establish beyond all doubts that households have absolutely no bearing on being straight or gay (or indeed, the environment), then I'm totally and all for gay adoption.

So can I get this straight? You are saying that it's bad to be put in an environment where you may be influenced to be gay? So in other words you are saying that it's bad to be gay...so in other words, that is a homophobic remark...right?

DutchieGirl
Jan 1st, 2004, 03:33 PM
I think I answered this earlier on. It isn't bad. At least, not to me. I just don't want to lose my liking for women. I wouldn't want a situation where I may say "bring on the men", as a result of my upbringing. Others are saying if I were to turn out a homosexual, I would be asking for men instead of women. But that's the whole point. I don't want that situation to come up at all, and would rather avoid it. To me my sexual orientation matters. It isn't a case of I don't mind if I'm a homosexual or heterosexual although it doesn't bother me the least in others. I hope everyone recognizes that its just a personal choice thing.

OK hello - you are STRAIGHT...we get that...who the hell is going to turn you gay? NO ONE! I assume that you are at least a teenager (14-15years or older) and in that case, you would have most likely worked out your sexuality (as it seems you have)...so this issue is not about someone changing YOUR sexuality right...you have said it, you are straight...no one will be putting you in a gay familiy! Let's think about this one: straight people have gay friends...straight people do not become gay from having gay friends. That's just like I have straight friends (major majority are straight) and I don't become straight because of them! Everyone's sexual orientation matters to them. It's part of who they are...that's the point. It's inside them...it's not what other people tell them or influence them.

I mean come on be serious...there are only so many things you can influence a person to do. When you are a teenager, hanging with your friends, you can be convinced to do a stupid joke on someone so that you look cool in front of your friends right? But if you have a moral conscience and would never say - rob a bank - then no one is gonna be able to influence you to do that. That's just like you... you woudn't wanna be a homosexual because you like girls. That's fine, no problems with that, but no one is gonna be able to influence you to become a homosexual if that is not your sexual your preference.

DutchieGirl
Jan 1st, 2004, 03:40 PM
Where do you get this data from ????? Tell me, suppose you are a child of gay parrents and since you were bornn stupid people hate you becouse of fact that your parents are gay, they forbid their children visit or even talk with you, you have many worries in school you can be evev laughing stock. PEOPLE can be CRUEL more then anything else. So it is very hard for child who growns up in environment like this can be so much tolerant.

uhh, in school I got picked on, and I have a mother and father, and no one at school knew I was gay (coz I didn't even figure it out myself till after I left school). So tell me again what you point is? Sure people can be cruel, but having gay parents, or being gay yourself is only one of the hundreds or thousands of things that kids can find to pick on others about!

DutchieGirl
Jan 1st, 2004, 03:45 PM
:wavey: I'm a girl ;)

A cute Dutch girlie! ;)

ooh... did I say that out loud? :p (JOKING of course). :kiss:

Tompier
Jan 1st, 2004, 03:56 PM
having gay parents, or being gay yourself is only one of the hundreds or thousands of things that kids can find to pick on others about!

The one adressed to your parents hurts the most.......

DutchieGirl
Jan 1st, 2004, 04:06 PM
The one adressed to your parents hurts the most.......
Actually no, the ones addressed to yourself hurt the most. Sure most kids would be upset if someone said something bad about their parents, but I think they'd feel alot worse if someone said something about them personally.

Messenger
Jan 1st, 2004, 04:15 PM
:wavey: I'm a girl ;)

Sorry :)

Tompier
Jan 1st, 2004, 04:23 PM
Actually no, the ones addressed to yourself hurt the most. Sure most kids would be upset if someone said something bad about their parents, but I think they'd feel alot worse if someone said something about them personally.

I am speaking for myself...It depends on your relationship with parents I guess. Belive me more people get angry of what others say about their family than them personally.

Zamboni
Jan 1st, 2004, 05:30 PM
A cute Dutch girlie! ;)

ooh... did I say that out loud? :p (JOKING of course). :kiss:
*blushes* ;) :kiss:

Brαm
Jan 1st, 2004, 09:30 PM
Tompier, I am wondering whether you had a proper education or not, because you do seem a tad intolerant to certain groups of society. You weren't raised by 2 goddamn, filthy homosexuals were you? :eek: :eek: :eek:


:tape:

Tompier
Jan 1st, 2004, 09:58 PM
Tompier, I am wondering whether you had a proper education or not, because you do seem a tad intolerant to certain groups of society. You weren't raised by 2 goddamn, filthy homosexuals were you? :eek: :eek: :eek:


:tape:


I am intolerant to certain group of society ???????????????????????
name what ????????? and by the way tell me how did you know this not knowing me becouse you DONT.

And no !! I was raised by two alien from far planet called "f... yourself, get a life and stop that guesswork", and since there are no schools I couldn't get a proper education. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Stop this crap becouse it is tiresome and boring.
Really I have no patient for WELL EDUCATED, MAX TOLERANT, LOOKING DOWN ON OTHER people like you. ]

Oh and where is your siblings ?? They support you in giving bad rep points so why not here ??

Anyway it is going in wrong way, I don't wanna waste my time for you
good luck

Tompier
Jan 1st, 2004, 10:06 PM
oh so you're not believing me? :rolleyes:

Sorry I would aswer you sooner but I didn't noticed that post of yours, probably becouse you are on my ignore list ;)
(just kiddig :p )

No It was honest, If that is true than :clap2:

Brαm
Jan 1st, 2004, 10:16 PM
(probably becouse you are on my ignore list ;) )


How ironic :lol: You're probably on a LOT of people's ignore list, too :haha:


And you need some Netiquette classes. Becouse YOU TYPE AS IF YOU'RE CONSTANTLY SHOUTING, OK???????????????????????????????????

:rolleyes:

Tompier
Jan 1st, 2004, 10:33 PM
How ironic :lol: You're probably on a LOT of people's ignore list, too



Maybe, possibly. I don't care ( you could count them on 1 hand I am sure)
But don't speak for others ok ??

~ The Leopard ~
Jan 1st, 2004, 11:25 PM
I've said my piece.

Say, it's hot here. I think I need a strawberry daiquiri or something to cool down. Maybe a bowl of chocolate ice cream. What do you all think? :scratch:

Fat Frog
Jan 2nd, 2004, 12:50 AM
I would tend to think a children needs to be raised by a masculine figure and a feminine figure, not 2 parents of the same gender. At least, from an ideal point of view.

I can't say I'm "against" it. I don't think there's something wrong with having gay parents. But I can't help to think it's not really ideal for many reasons.

thats a response of complete sh1te.
are you saying the other people influencing a kids life should be equally masculine and feminine..i.e. teachers, coaches, neighbours,
then of course what happens if some relatives die.(this includes parents) the poor child will be unbalanced because they were raised by a single mother or father? crap :mad:

Fat Frog
Jan 2nd, 2004, 12:52 AM
It's not like they are gonna adopt half the world's population of kids and brainwash them all into being gay!

...

:lol: :lol:

A4
Jan 2nd, 2004, 05:46 AM
This has been way too exhausting. Just to answer bajangurl and others who questioned my sexuality and to add a few comments. And then my responses to this thread will be over, whether I'm asked a question or not.

With questions about my sexuality. I knew that was coming up, once I took the position I did. As you rightly pointed out, yes, there is fear. But not for me. I totally know my sexuality and I'm not a confused scared guy at all. I've actually hanged out with friends in a gay club before (or at least, club owned by gays) and I'm totally comfortable hanging out there. Its probably easier for a straight guy to pick up women in a gay environment than in one where all the guys are straight. And I happen to think lesbians are probably the nicest group of people I've met. They always go ....." oooooo, you're the most(insert compliment) man I've ever met" and always kiss without fail anytime I ask them to. As to the guys, some come up and ask if I'm gay, bi or straight. Some talk for a bit, whether straight or gay. Doesn't make me uncomfortable at all and its not any different from meeting new people around.

So you may may wonder where the fear you sense may come from (Bajangirl) and you're right. I'm scared, but not for myself now. I've, as you put it, worked out exactly where I stand wrt sexuality. I'm scared for myself, maybe twenty years back, if as a toddler, I was being adopted. Will I have turned out no different from whom I am now if two gay men had raised me? And should it matter if I turned out differently, say more inclined to being gay? Most people seem to be saying it shouldn't matter to me as long as I can have sex and love someone, whether men or women. It shouldn't make a difference because as long as you're not impotent, you can have sex and love anyway. And that's where the differences arose. To me, it mattered. That if I was really being honest to myself, it mattered to me the sex of the person I have sex with.
And that's what drew me into this thread in the first place. We cannot all be gay or adopted kids at say, 2 years old. It seemed everyone who answered initially was putting themselves in the shoes of gays. That as a gay person, should I be allowed to adopt a kid or not? Personally, my answer will be a big yes. I just thought to look at it from another point, that as a kid being adopted, with equal chances and opportunites in two households, will I want to be raised by gay parents or straight parents? Most of my arguments in the thread was more along those lines, a very young person being raised with issues of sexuality and identification not completely determined. Will two gay parents make a difference? I don't know. Will I want to find out with my own life? The answer was no. And I felt, as long as I was hesitant in choosing being raised by two males over that of a male and a female, then I really couldn't support other kids being sent into the same situation. Thats all there is to it.


With charges of being close-minded and probably a closet homophobe, I can understand why gays may feel that way because I'm not looking at things from their perspective. I'm not claiming my position is right. I don't understand sexuality and very definitely cannot understand homosexuality, at least, between men. I can't answer a number of inkyfan's questions satisfactorily, like how come a gay person could arise from a total heterosexual env (maybe, the genetic component was much stronger?). I can only make an informed opinion when all the facts are known. Until then, I can only go with feelings, which might be totally wrong. For now though, my feelings are I wouldn't want to be raised by two men. Am I a close-minded and a homophobe? I guess to some people, I am. To others, not. To myself, definitely not, which is ultimately the most important, right?

To all gays, well, this is just the opinion of one a$$hole somewhere and judging by the responses to the thread, there is a lot of support for gay adoption so my opinion shouldn't matter.

Whew, its been draining to have an unpopular view. Now I know how LSG might have felt. Actually having some sympathy for her....... is the world coming to an end???????????/

bionic71
Jan 2nd, 2004, 09:57 AM
missed the start of this thread....been away since the 26th frolicking the sun.............

Being gay does not mean that you do not have a desire to parent or bring up children. I certainly do........and if I was able to adopt legally then it would be an option I would consider in the future.
If my partner and I are financially secure and are able to devote 100 % of our time to parenting it is something we would love to do.

We would make bloody excellent parents......and have a great extended family that would welcome a child with open arms.

As a school teacher I see so many neglected kids.......physically and emotionally....and I KNOW we would make outstanding parents.

It is about LOVE for the child.........not the opinions of others on whether a gay parent is a "good" thing or not......
I KNOW it would be a good thing in my case and that is enough for me.