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View Full Version : Posters who are good at Writing in English depite being a non-native speaker?


GoGoMaggie
Dec 28th, 2003, 09:21 AM
I think bandabou is great.
I know English isn't his first or most comfortable language.
He knows a lot of stuff and is good enough to make people angry with every post he posts.

I think most of the Belgian posters on the board are great. I can't believe English isn't their first language.

The poster who amuses me most with their English is AlexSydney. No offense but I always enjoys reading what he has to say.

skanky~skanketta
Dec 28th, 2003, 09:31 AM
hmph!its my third language and i'm specializing in public relations and JOURNALISM!pfffffffft!

vs1
Dec 28th, 2003, 09:31 AM
I think Dava_Russianrule is great as well. ;)

King Satan
Dec 28th, 2003, 09:33 AM
hmph!its my third language and i'm specializing in public relations and JOURNALISM!pfffffffft!
you're clearly the best! why aren't you mentioned here?? :(

honestly, when i first talked to you, i thought you were american. your english was perfect, and you even understood some slang terms i used :)

skanky~skanketta
Dec 28th, 2003, 09:34 AM
*blush*

King Satan
Dec 28th, 2003, 09:35 AM
lol :kiss:

skanky~skanketta
Dec 28th, 2003, 09:37 AM
thanks!:kiss:

rothes is good too. rather formal, but she's cool.she speaks the way i write articles!(for those who live in malaysia, mondays, star, maritime section. my articles come out a lot)

angele87
Dec 28th, 2003, 12:16 PM
I don't know about the others but personally, my written english is a lot better than my spoken english :o Not that my spoken english is horrible or anything but sometimes I might not know the right word or something like that but when I write I can have a little more thinking time without everybody knowing that I'm at a loss for words :angel:

Doraemon
Dec 28th, 2003, 04:28 PM
I'm better at speaking than writing.
When I speak, I feel as if I wouldn't need to give a crap about my grammar or vocablary cuz everything goes so fast and having little time to think and construct sentences really makes me speak naturally without realizin I'm speaking a foreign language.
Writing involves so much thinking process and requires a lot of work. spelling words correctly, using correct tense etc.

Anyways, I don't know everybody on the board but as far as I know, The Boiled Egg is the best. He's Russian right?

Glenn
Dec 28th, 2003, 04:30 PM
I think I'm pretty good myself... :)

King Aaron
Dec 28th, 2003, 05:32 PM
rothes is good too. rather formal, but she's cool.she speaks the way i write articles!(for those who live in malaysia, mondays, star, maritime section. my articles come out a lot)

It does?! :eek: Why didn't you tell me earlier? :)

decemberlove
Dec 28th, 2003, 10:01 PM
ys is russian, no?

Big Fat Pink Elephant
Dec 28th, 2003, 10:03 PM
does it count when ys lives in the states? just wondering....
norwegian isn't my native language, but i speak it and write it without any problems - becoz i've lived here for 15 years. see my point....

lilly
Dec 28th, 2003, 10:06 PM
I'm better at speaking than writing.
When I speak, I feel as if I wouldn't need to give a crap about my grammar or vocablary cuz everything goes so fast and having little time to think and construct sentences really makes me speak naturally without realizin I'm speaking a foreign language.
Writing involves so much thinking process and requires a lot of work. spelling words correctly, using correct tense etc.

Other way around with me, when I speak english, it doesn't come out as it sounds in my head. all of a sudden I'm a retard that can't pronounce anything or build a descent sentence. writing just flows out me without thinking much. but then again, I'm a paper-girl in any language...

decemberlove
Dec 28th, 2003, 10:20 PM
does it count when ys lives in the states? just wondering....
norwegian isn't my native language, but i speak it and write it without any problems - becoz i've lived here for 15 years. see my point....

i dont know. i guess it would depend on how long hes been living here and his age, as its easy to learn a language when youre younger. his english is better than most americans thou. ys is so mysterious...

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 28th, 2003, 10:33 PM
Yeah, kids pick up languages easily (damn them!). And damn the Australian education system for not trying to teach you foreign languages until you are at high school, by which time it is really too late.

Anyway, Tine is the most impressive IMHO.

Colin B
Dec 28th, 2003, 11:56 PM
Anyway, Tine is the most impressive IMHO.

Yep, Tine get's my vote too, although I don't know everyone's nationality, so maybe there are others who are equally gifted without me realising it. :)

skanky~skanketta
Dec 29th, 2003, 01:01 AM
who's this tine?:mad:

king aaron, well, cuz my name is not published cuz its only freelance and i'm not a member of star.

how were the results???

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 29th, 2003, 01:08 AM
who's this tine?:mad:



Beggin' Beguine. She writes as well as any of the native English speakers.

Rothes
Dec 29th, 2003, 01:35 AM
who's this tine?:mad:

king aaron, well, cuz my name is not published cuz its only freelance and i'm not a member of star.

how were the results???

Vera, Can your articles be found on any select Internet Site, Im finding myself creating a back bone of persistency to read them ;)

Rothes
Dec 29th, 2003, 01:41 AM
who's this tine?:mad:

bah :mad:

skanky~skanketta
Dec 29th, 2003, 05:15 AM
well, i dont think so cuz u have to pay to get the archives. but can send u some articles if u want. trust me. its boring stuff on containers and ports.

Mattographer
Dec 29th, 2003, 05:20 AM
The poster who amuses me most with their English is AlexSydney. No offense but I always enjoys reading what he has to say.
I don't care what you think of me, anyway because I'm Deaf and my English is not that bad. Being Deaf can't able to hear from TV, radio and conversation by voice which help your English improving. We only learning English by teachers in the schools.

:wavey:

Rothes
Dec 29th, 2003, 06:20 AM
well, i dont think so cuz u have to pay to get the archives. but can send u some articles if u want. trust me. its boring stuff on containers and ports.

Yeah, Please send me one :) I always enjoy reading peoples Articles :)

Kuilli
Dec 29th, 2003, 07:55 AM
Anyway, Tine is the most impressive IMHO.
Yep, I have to go with Tine also. :)

Come-on-kim
Dec 29th, 2003, 08:02 AM
A lot of posters are writing english pretty well, so it's hard to point out a particular poster. But I'd say that the Belgians, mostly the flemishs, are really good in writing/speaking english.

moby
Dec 29th, 2003, 08:35 AM
is flemish is the same language group as english
i.e. the Germanic group (or whatever it's called)
maybe that might explain it

I know french and spanish are Romance languages (or whatever that is called)

jd4eva
Dec 29th, 2003, 08:45 AM
vote for me :fiery:

Rothes
Dec 29th, 2003, 08:46 AM
why what Language to you speak jd4eva?

Doraemon
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:09 AM
I think there is a clear difference between people who have grown up in an environment where English is spoken on a daily basis if not an official language and those from where there's practically no English used in life plus your first language plays a big part as well. Depending on how close your mother tounge is to English, it takes varying amounts of time to learn it. I learned Germanic language speaking people tend to pick up English more quickly because of the similarities of their first languages to English. On the other hand, people who speak languages which are very different from English in grammar and vocab generally have a tough time learning English.
Another thing which is closely related to what kind of environment you have grown up in is how important your national language is in the international community or how well it is recognized in the world. People who speak internaionally less recognized languages take it more seriously to learn other languages for the sake of their international properity.

moby
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:16 AM
exactly
i wouldnt say english is my native language... mandarin is my mother tongue, my in Singapore, English is considered the first language and almost everyone suck at their mother tongue
I would like to think I'm an exception cause I only really started speaking English when I went to school, seeing that both my parents can't speak English and only speak the Chinese dialects Mandarin and Hokkien (the latter which I cannot speak but can understand)

I do think as you grow older you lose the ability to pick up languages quickly. Particularly for me, as I am not very inclined towards languages. I took Japanese as my 3rd language for 4 years, and I'm ashamed to say that I can't hold a proper conversation in Japanese, even though I may read and (barely) write in it. In all honesty, I didn't take my studies in Japanese very seriously though.

Come-on-kim
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:16 AM
is flemish is the same language group as english
i.e. the Germanic group (or whatever it's called)
maybe that might explain it

I know french and spanish are Romance languages (or whatever that is called)
Yes, both are "germanic languages".

French is a roman language (comes from Latin)

Brαm
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:18 AM
is flemish is the same language group as english
i.e. the Germanic group (or whatever it's called)



Flemish people speak & write Dutch, Flemish does not exist. And yes, Dutch is a germanic language, like English!

moby
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:21 AM
so it's like the Celts speak and write Gaelic but Celtic doesnt exist? :)

Come-on-kim
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:23 AM
Flemish people speak & write Dutch, Flemish does not exist. And yes, Dutch is a germanic language, like English!
Flemish does exist :p I can assure you my mum isn't speaking Dutch :p she speaks a dialect from Gent that I would call flemish ;)

Brαm
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:25 AM
Flemish does exist :p I can assure you my mum isn't speaking Dutch :p she speaks a dialect from Gent that I would call flemish ;)
Flemish does not exist. I dare you to speak or write a gramatically correct text in Flemish. There are a lot of dialects and accents in Flanders, but there isn't such a thing as "Flemish" :(

Rothes
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:25 AM
exactly
i wouldnt say english is my native language... mandarin is my mother tongue, my in Singapore, English is considered the first language and almost everyone suck at their mother tongue
I would like to think I'm an exception cause I only really started speaking English when I went to school, seeing that both my parents can't speak English and only speak the Chinese dialects Mandarin and Hokkien (the latter which I cannot speak but can understand)

I do think as you grow older you lose the ability to pick up languages quickly. Particularly for me, as I am not very inclined towards languages. I took Japanese as my 3rd language for 4 years, and I'm ashamed to say that I can't hold a proper conversation in Japanese, even though I may read and (barely) write in it. In all honesty, I didn't take my studies in Japanese very seriously though.

You have expressed it well, Dutch (So they say) is the closest related Language to English, and thats perhaps why Dutch, Flemish speakers speak it better then the average European.

Again, Chinese is closely related to Japanese, Especially in the Kanji/Script since Japanese stole most of Chinese Characters/Kanji.

The Word Month (Gatsu) in Japanese has the same Kanji as it does in Chinese, meaning the same, but I think spoken differently.

Come-on-kim
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:27 AM
Flemish does not exist. I dare you to speak or write a gramatically correct text in Flemish. There are a lot of dialects and accents in Flanders, but there isn't such a thing as "Flemish" :(
Dialects isn't Dutch as well... so how would you call it? French dialects have names, so I guess Dutch dialects have names as well... (I would call them Flemish.. a kind of Dutch spoken in Flanders)

SpikeyAidanm
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:34 AM
1. SuperG - he's class :hatoff:
2. snoop :clap2:
3. dubro :bigclap:
4. Juan
5. elke_belke

Brαm
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:35 AM
Dialects isn't Dutch as well... so how would you call it? French dialects have names, so I guess Dutch dialects have names as well... (I would call them Flemish.. a kind of Dutch spoken in Flanders)
There is no 1 Flemish dialect! That is my point! Almost every city or town has its own accent/grammar/vocabulary.

Come-on-kim
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:39 AM
There is no 1 Flemish dialect! That is my point! Almost every city or town has its own accent/grammar/vocabulary.
Yes, I know, but you have to name those "dialects" so why not naming them Flemish?

In French, there's "le néerlandais" (Dutch) and "le flamand" (Flemish)... One is the "right" language, the other is the dialects from Flanders.

Doraemon
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:40 AM
There are quite a few factors which decide how close or different one language is to or from another. How many words do the two languages have in common? e.g. French and English share a lot of words because of the historical background that the two were exchanged and coexisted in a certain period of time. Thus French speaking people are advantaged in the vocabulary area.
Word order is a very important component in grammar. I think most of the European languages are similar in this department with just a few slight differences.
Chinese and Japanese resemble each other as far as their writing sytles go but when you compare them in terms of grammar, they are distinctly different. Chinese is more similar to English then Japanese in word order. The closest language to Japanese is without a doubt Korean. We use different letters but grammar wise there's so little to separate our languages. So, I would say Korean is way easier for us Japanese to learn than Chinese.

Pronounciation is another thing we have to look at. There are many kinds of accents and I'm always impressed by Scadinavian ppl's English. They have such a slight accent when they speak English. My Swedish friend told me there are a lot of English channels and few domestic channels in Sweden so naturally they can pick up English from the environment. So TV is definitely an important factor here.

Rothes
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:42 AM
But Katakana words are mainly from English right?

Rothes
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:42 AM
Nihongo wa Doko ni sunde imasu ka??
*Hoping I can remember*

Brαm
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:44 AM
Yes, I know, but you have to name those "dialects" so why not naming them Flemish?

In French, there's "le néerlandais" (Dutch) and "le flamand" (Flemish)... One is the "right" language, the other is the dialects from Flanders.
You can't call all the dialects spoken in Flanders "Flemish", because they're so different!

There isn't one Flemish dialect. Get it?

Doraemon
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:45 AM
Related to pronounciation, we Japanese are unable to distinguish the 'r' sound and 'l' sound by ears.
I myself can hardly tell them apart sadly..really sadly.. I have been in trouble on many occasions because of the inability. For example, I was gonna bring up the topic of closing the other day with my friends. I thought ppl were pronoucing the word 'cloning' croning. No matter how many times I repeated myself, they wouldn't understand what I was trying to say. Then, oen of them finally caught on and oh said 'oh you mean cloning' . I felt so left out.

per4ever
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:45 AM
English and Dutch are both germanic languages, but that's about all they have in common ;)

it's just the fact that Belgium and especially Flanders has had many foreign oppressors: Spain, France, the Netherlands, Germany. In some way that still reflects in our education and culture. We are used to adapt..and so we need to speak many languages.

Rothes
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:46 AM
How about saying Flemish is a group of languages under the Flemish Denomination, Like Roman Catholicism is denomination to Christianity ??

Come-on-kim
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:46 AM
There are quite a few factors which decide how close or different one language is to or from another. How many words do the two languages have in common? e.g. French and English share a lot of words because of the historical background that the two were exchanged and coexisted in a certain period of time. Thus French speaking people are advantaged in the vocabulary area.
Word order is a very important component in grammar. I think most of the European languages are similar in this department with just a few slight differences.
Chinese and Japanese resemble each other as far as their writing sytles go but when you compare them in terms of grammar, they are distinctly different. Chinese is more similar to English then Japanese in word order. The closest language to Japanese is without a doubt Korean. We use different letters but grammar wise there's so little to separate our languages. So, I would say Korean is way easier for us Japanese to learn than Chinese.

Pronounciation is another thing we have to look at. There are many kinds of accents and I'm always impressed by Scadinavian ppl's English. They have such a slight accent when they speak English. My Swedish friend told me there are a lot of English channels and few domestic channels in Sweden so naturally they can pick up English from the environment. So TV is definitely an important factor here.
I wouldn't say French speaking people have an advantage for the vocabulary... We doesn't share a lot of words with the English vocabulary! There're English words that have been included in the French vacabulary like the word parking for example. But beside that, most of the French words doesn't have a lot in commun with English words!

Brαm
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:47 AM
How about saying Flemish is a group of languages under the Flemish Denomination, Like Roman Catholicism is denomination to Christianity ??
What does religion have to do with this? :shrug:

And Flemish a group of [languages]? :confused:

Come-on-kim
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:47 AM
You can't call all the dialects spoken in Flanders "Flemish", because they're so different!

There isn't one Flemish dialect. Get it?
I get your point, but you don't seem to get mine... well, I give up

Brαm
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:48 AM
I wouldn't say French speaking people have an advantage for the vocabulary... We doesn't share a lot of words with the English vocabulary! There're English words that have been included in the French vacabulary like the word parking for example. But beside that, most of the French words doesn't have a lot in commun with English words!
That's nonsense! English & French share so much vocabulary! :eek:

Rothes
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:50 AM
Religion has nothing to do with this what so ever, I was using it as a comparison. Obviously it failed somewhat

Come-on-kim
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:51 AM
English and Dutch are both germanic languages, but that's about all they have in common ;)

it's just the fact that Belgium and especially Flanders has had many foreign oppressors: Spain, France, the Netherlands, Germany. In some way that still reflects in our education and culture. We are used to adapt..and so we need to speak many languages.
And also the fact that Belgium is a federal country that has 3 official languages... Now, you'll hardly get a job in Brussels if you can't speak Dutch AND French... And with the European Institutions in Brussels, it is definately easier to find a job if you can speak English and then, Dutch and French.

Doraemon
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:51 AM
But Katakana words are mainly from English right?

True. We have introduced quite a few words from abroad. And most of them are represnted in katakana like you said. I think it's a good thing cuz that really reduces the number of English words we have to learn as some of them are alreayd in use in our daily life though some are being pronounced in a way which wouldn't be understood by foreigners.
I think that fact that most of us including myself can't tell the r sound from the l sound is a vital misfortune of our language. We also have difficulty distinguish between the z, d and voiced th sounds but with pracitice, it can be overcome.
I'm sure many Japanese people pronounce the world 'light' as if they were saying 'right'. It's very sad!

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:52 AM
Yeah, I got your analogy, Rothes. :angel: Maybe some people just see "Rothes" and "religion" and .... :tape:




:)

per4ever
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:53 AM
That's nonsense! English & French share so much vocabulary! :eek:
oh really??? no way dude ;) you might know several well known examples of popular things.. but that's about it.

The French want to keep their language as pure as possible, so whenever a new english word is found, they invent a french word for it.

Rothes
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:53 AM
If I am reading this properly (im more so skimming) There are dialects of "Flemish" so you say, thus your arguing that Flemish can't be named as one Language, Like Christianity is not just One Religion, However there are denominations (dialects) to flemish, different dialects etc just like there is of Christianity, ie: Mornomism S.D.A, Carmelite, Catholic, Anglican etc

Come-on-kim
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:54 AM
That's nonsense! English & French share so much vocabulary! :eek:
..... No, I don't think so!

We may share some words but beside those ones there's NOTHING in commun between certain French and English words! While for example in Dutch, you may not share a lot of words with English, but those are related... you can find a commun source which is normal as both are "Germanic Languages"

per4ever
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:54 AM
And also the fact that Belgium is a federal country that has 3 official languages... Now, you'll hardly get a job in Brussels if you can't speak Dutch AND French... And with the European Institutions in Brussels, it is definately easier to find a job if you can speak English and then, Dutch and French.

the fact that we have three official languages is just a consequence of our history.

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:54 AM
Anyway, where the fuck is Tine, since she's the queen of the posters in this category, according to the vote so far?

Oh, Teeeeeeeeeeeeee-nuh! Come Ou-ou-ou-out!! :D

Rothes
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:55 AM
Yeah, I got your analogy, Rothes. :angel: Maybe some people just see "Rothes" and "religion" and .... :tape:




:)

Hello Joui!!

Yes you catch my drift, you know what Im saying (or trying to)

Brαm
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:55 AM
oh really??? no way dude ;) you might know several well known examples of popular things.. but that's about it.

The French want to keep their language as pure as possible, so whenever a new english word is found, they invent a french word for it.
I'm talking about words like "education, position, precis" etc. I've been taught that over 30% of the English vocabulary comes from French!!

Come-on-kim
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:57 AM
oh really??? no way dude ;) you might know several well known examples of popular things.. but that's about it.

The French want to keep their language as pure as possible, so whenever a new english word is found, they invent a french word for it.
Yeah that's true! And sometimes they are going too far. For example in Quebec, I love the Quebec French, but sometimes I think it's too much :p Like they use the expression "Bris d'égalité" instead of "tie-break"... and there's a lot of examples like that! But as for the French spoken in France, they are becoming more and more open with the English words

-Ph51-
Dec 29th, 2003, 09:58 AM
oh really??? no way dude ;) you might know several well known examples of popular things.. but that's about it.

The French want to keep their language as pure as possible, so whenever a new english word is found, they invent a french word for it.
Like "courriel" :)

Come-on-kim
Dec 29th, 2003, 10:00 AM
Like "courriel" :)
:eek: I so much hate that word

per4ever
Dec 29th, 2003, 10:01 AM
exactly Ph51

Bram, that's only because lots of words are derived from Latin words. The english vocabulary is gigantic, while the french vocabulary is relatively small.

Brαm
Dec 29th, 2003, 10:05 AM
exactly Ph51

Bram, that's only because lots of words are derived from Latin words. The english vocabulary is gigantic, while the french vocabulary is relatively small.
Actually the French words in the English vocabulary come from the era when French was spoken by the English upper classes (10-11-12th century?).

You must admit that English and French share a lot of words!!

Just look around on this messageboard:
option - message - signature - version - page - ...

Doraemon
Dec 29th, 2003, 10:07 AM
Actually the French words in the English vocabulary come from the era when French was spoken by the English upper classes (10-11-12th century?).

You must admit that English and French share a lot of words!!

Just look around on this messageboard:
option - message - signature - version - page - ...


Exactly!
The reason why French people suck at English big time is their stubborness to stick by their language accepting any other!
haha j/k

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 29th, 2003, 10:16 AM
I think French is the easiest language for an English-speaker to learn. I suck at it, but that's because I've never had much opportunity to use what I knew when I was at my best. But it is quite intuitive in its grammar, and it does share a lot of vocab. German, by contrast, uses a syntax that drives English-speakers crazy.

per4ever
Dec 29th, 2003, 10:16 AM
Actually the French words in the English vocabulary come from the era when French was spoken by the English upper classes (10-11-12th century?).

You must admit that English and French share a lot of words!!

Just look around on this messageboard:
option - message - signature - version - page - ...
so it seems, but I would like to hear the opinion of an english teacher.

I mean this is only a very very small part of the english vocabulary that we actually know. I don't know if French had such an influence on the development of english.

Brαm
Dec 29th, 2003, 10:19 AM
so it seems, but I would like to hear the opinion of an english teacher.

I mean this is only a very very small part of the english vocabulary that we actually know. I don't know if French had such an influence on the development of english.
Well that's what my teachers/professors have told me during the past years ;)

What more can I say?

Come-on-kim
Dec 29th, 2003, 10:24 AM
If i remember about it, I'll ask a friend of mine who is studying English/Spanish she may be able to answer that!

Brαm
Dec 29th, 2003, 10:26 AM
If i remember about it, I'll ask a friend of mine who is studying English/Spanish she may be able to answer that!
Well I'm studying English and German :rolleyes:

Come-on-kim
Dec 29th, 2003, 10:30 AM
Well I'm studying English and German :rolleyes:
Yes but you are not studying French or a French speaker.... :p She is a French speaker, so she can maybe compare English/French better than you can do? :p Don't you think so? ;)

Stijn
Dec 29th, 2003, 10:35 AM
Actually the French words in the English vocabulary come from the era when French was spoken by the English upper classes (10-11-12th century?).

Indeed. My English teacher spoke about this subject only weeks ago.
For example:
Mutton was used by the upper classes, sheep by the normal people.
Same thing with pork and pig.

Nowadays they use the one word for the meat and the other word for the animal itself, but this wasn't always the case. And I do think my English teacher knows what he's talking about. ;)

Come-on-kim
Dec 29th, 2003, 10:40 AM
Indeed. My English teacher spoke about this subject only weeks ago.
For example:
Mutton was used by the upper classes, sheep by the normal people.
Same thing with pork and pig.

Nowadays they use the one word for the meat and the other word for the animal itself, but this wasn't always the case. And I do think my English teacher knows what he's talking about. ;)
"mutton" isn't "mouton", those are 2 differents words :p

I still think that Dutch and English have more common (or tend to be commun) words... look, for example :

private -> privaat - privé
to go -> gaan - aller
....

Brαm
Dec 29th, 2003, 10:43 AM
"mutton" isn't "mouton", those are 2 differents words :p

I still think that Dutch and English have more common (or tend to be commun) words... look, for example :

private -> privaat - privé
to go -> gaan - aller
....
Duh of course Dutch and English are more related to each other! They're part of the same language group! :rolleyes:

My point is that a lot of French vocabulary has been absorbed by the English (Middle age) and is now part of the official English vocabulary.

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 29th, 2003, 10:43 AM
As for the history of English, bram is right. Remember the Norman invasion in 1066 people? Or was I the only one alive at the time. ;)

Come-on-kim
Dec 29th, 2003, 10:45 AM
Duh of course Dutch and English are more related to each other! They're part of the same language group! :rolleyes:

My point is that a lot of French vocabulary has been absorbed by the English (Middle age) and is now part of the official English vocabulary.
But that doesn't make it easier for the French speaker to learn English!

Brαm
Dec 29th, 2003, 10:48 AM
But that doesn't make it easier for the French speaker to learn English!
Did I say so? I don't remember stating that. I just said that some French and English vocabulary are the same.

Stijn
Dec 29th, 2003, 10:57 AM
"mutton" isn't "mouton", those are 2 differents words :p

I still think that Dutch and English have more common (or tend to be commun) words... look, for example :

private -> privaat - privé
to go -> gaan - aller
....

Is there something wrong with my eyes or are 'private' and 'privaat' 2 different words as well... :tape:
Same thing with 'to go' and 'gaan' :scratch:

I'm sure you got my point, Axel.

Josh
Dec 29th, 2003, 11:01 AM
How French Has Influenced English

Les influences de la langue française dans la langue anglaise

The English language has been shaped by a number of other languages over the centuries, and many English speakers know that Latin and German were two of the most important. What many people don't realize is how much the French language has influenced English.

Without going into too much detail, I want to give a little bit of background about the other languages which shaped English. It was born out of the dialects of three German tribes (Angles, Jutes, and Saxons) who settled in Britain in about 450 A.D. This group of dialects forms what linguists refer to as Anglo-Saxon, and at some point this language developed into what we know as Old English. This Germanic base was influenced in varying degrees by Celtic, Latin, and Scandinavian (Old Norse) - the languages spoken by invading armies.

Bill Bryson calls the Norman conquest of 1066 the "final cataclysm [which] awaited the English language." (1) When William the Conqueror became king of England, French took over as the language of the court, administration, and culture - and stayed there for 300 years. Meanwhile, English was "demoted" to everyday, unprestigious uses. These two languages existed side by side in England with no noticeable difficulties; in fact, since English was essentially ignored by grammarians during this time, it took advantage of its lowly status to become a grammatically simpler language and, after only 70 or 80 years existing side-by-side with French, Old English segued into Middle English.

Vocabulary

During the Norman occupation, about 10,000 French words were adopted into English, some three-fourths of which are still in use today. This French vocabulary is found in every domain, from government and law to art and literature - learn some.

Pronunciation

English pronunciation owes a lot to French as well. Whereas Old English had the unvoiced fricative sounds , , (as in thin), and (shin), French influence helped to distinguish their voiced counterparts , , (the), and (mirage), and also contributed the dipthong (boy). (2) (What is voiced/unvoiced/fricative?)

Grammar

Another rare but interesting remnant of French influence is in the word order of expressions like secretary general and surgeon general, where English has retained the noun + adjective word order typical in French, rather than the usual adjective + noun used in English.

http://french.about.com/library/bl-frenchinenglish-list.htm

Brαm
Dec 29th, 2003, 11:04 AM
Vocabulary

During the Norman occupation, about 10,000 French words were adopted into English, some three-fourths of which are still in use today. This French vocabulary is found in every domain, from government and law to art and literature - learn some.


Thanks :worship: :)

-Ph51-
Dec 29th, 2003, 11:12 AM
As for the history of English, bram is right. Remember the Norman invasion in 1066 people? Or was I the only one alive at the time. ;)
No.I was there too.But i was a cat then :lol:

Josh
Dec 29th, 2003, 11:19 AM
And about "Flemish"....

The language spoken in Flanders is called Dutch, Flemish is mainly an invention of the 19th century romanticists who wanted to create a certian national identity in the north of Belgium. This area was called Flanders, derived from the medieval county of Flanders which was roughly made up of present-day Zeeuws-Vlaanderen in the Netherlands, Oost-en West-Vlaanderen in Belgium and French Flanders in France. Nevermind the fact that the provinces of Antwerp and Brabant were never part of this medieval county but instead were part of the Duchy of Brabant. And let's forget about Limburg which depended of Liège.

While it's true that all these regions spoke a medieval form of Dutch, this form was so different in each of these regions that it was probably impossible for someone from Leuven to understand someone from Kortrijk and vice versa.

Today, the correct use of the word "Flemish" (related to language) would be an umbrella noun for the various dialects spoken in West-Flanders, parts of East-Flanders and Northern France. Because these dialects have certain things in common, nonetheless the fact that, like Bram said, every town has its own specific pronunciation.

Brabantic can be used to describe the dialects spoken in the rest of East-Flanders, Brabant and Antwerp, while Limburgs applies to the province of Limburg.

So Flemish is really just an 19th century invention to create a certain national identity, just like the fact that the north of Belgium is now called Flanders, but it might as well have been Brabant or Limburg. Truth is that the history of medieval Flanders was more adapted for nationalistic purposes (see Battle of the Golden Spurs).

Come-on-kim
Dec 29th, 2003, 11:32 AM
Is there something wrong with my eyes or are 'private' and 'privaat' 2 different words as well... :tape:
Same thing with 'to go' and 'gaan' :scratch:

I'm sure you got my point, Axel.
My point is that Dutch is more related to English than French is.. (which is normal as both are germanic languages)

Come-on-kim
Dec 29th, 2003, 11:36 AM
Did I say so? I don't remember stating that. I just said that some French and English vocabulary are the same.
You quoted a post of mine where i said "I wouldn't say French speaking people have an advantage for the vocabulary" and you said that it was "non sense"... vocubulary is part of learning a language, isn't it?

Come-on-kim
Dec 29th, 2003, 11:39 AM
Today, the correct use of the word "Flemish" (related to language) would be an umbrella noun for the various dialects spoken in West-Flanders, parts of East-Flanders and Northern France. Because these dialects have certain things in common, nonetheless the fact that, like Bram said, every town has its own specific pronunciation.

So, Bram you were right, and I was right as well :wavey:

Maajken
Dec 29th, 2003, 11:53 AM
And also the fact that Belgium is a federal country that has 3 official languages... Now, you'll hardly get a job in Brussels if you can't speak Dutch AND French...
not exactly true axel. i've been in many shops in brussels where employees speak only french and not one word of dutch. i think speaking dutch is optional if you want to work in brussels..

i've always thought it was easier for flemish people to learn another language fluently because we don't seem to have such a strong accent like the french or spanish for example...same goes for scandinavian people. maybe that's true for all former germanic countries..

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 29th, 2003, 11:56 AM
Today, the correct use of the word "Flemish" (related to language) would be an umbrella noun for the various dialects spoken in West-Flanders, parts of East-Flanders and Northern France.

This is more less what Rothes was trying to say, I think, much as religious analogies often obscure more than they illuminate.

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 29th, 2003, 11:59 AM
When William the Conqueror became king of England, French took over as the language of the court, administration, and culture - and stayed there for 300 years. Meanwhile, English was "demoted" to everyday, unprestigious uses. These two languages existed side by side in England with no noticeable difficulties; in fact, since English was essentially ignored by grammarians during this time, it took advantage of its lowly status to become a grammatically simpler language and, after only 70 or 80 years existing side-by-side with French, Old English segued into Middle English.



:tape:

Experimentee
Dec 29th, 2003, 01:24 PM
I've studied French for many years and I think its one of the easiest languages for english speakers to learn. The grammatical rules are all the same, and they do share a lot of vocabulary.

Brαm
Dec 29th, 2003, 01:28 PM
So, Bram you were right, and I was right as well :wavey:
Not quite :p The text is dealing with dialects from Flanders as in West-Flanders & East-Flanders. You were talking about Flanders as in the Dutchspeaking community in Belgium.

The texts Josh posted say the same things I've been saying in this thread :)

moby
Dec 29th, 2003, 01:33 PM
i would say japanese is a very different language from any other... aren't japanese and basque (sp?) the two languages which cannot be classified?

although japanese and chinese share similarly written vocabulary, the words dont always mean the same thing. "blue" in japanese = "green" in chinese for instance. besides while japanese has some form of grammar, chinese doesnt. at least it seems to me that it doesnt (no past tense, present tense, etc.)

Come-on-kim
Dec 29th, 2003, 01:34 PM
not exactly true axel. i've been in many shops in brussels where employees speak only french and not one word of dutch. i think speaking dutch is optional if you want to work in brussels..

i've always thought it was easier for flemish people to learn another language fluently because we don't seem to have such a strong accent like the french or spanish for example...same goes for scandinavian people. maybe that's true for all former germanic countries..
I was more speaking about banks, federal institutions,...

Come-on-kim
Dec 29th, 2003, 01:37 PM
Not quite :p The text is dealing with dialects from Flanders as in West-Flanders & East-Flanders. You were talking about Flanders as in the Dutchspeaking community in Belgium.

The texts Josh posted say the same things I've been saying in this thread :)
Just look here http://www.wtaworld.com/showpost.php?p=2856267&postcount=41 I was speaking about Flemish as the general name of the different dutch dialects in Flanders :p

Brαm
Dec 29th, 2003, 01:39 PM
Just look here http://www.wtaworld.com/showpost.php?p=2856267&postcount=41 I was speaking about Flemish as the general name of the different dutch dialects in Flanders :p
See? You just proved me right :)

Flemish is umbrella term of dialects spoken in West & East Flanders, not in Antwerp, Flemish Brabant, Limburg etc.

Come-on-kim
Dec 29th, 2003, 01:45 PM
See? You just proved me right :)

Flemish is umbrella term of dialects spoken in West & East Flanders, not in Antwerp, Flemish Brabant, Limburg etc.
Did I spoke about Limbourg, Antwerp,... nope, I spoke about Flanders (--> West-Flanders, East Flanders)

Brαm
Dec 29th, 2003, 01:47 PM
Did I spoke about Limbourg, Antwerp,... nope, I spoke about Flanders (--> West-Flanders, East Flanders)
:rolleyes: :tape:

Come-on-kim
Dec 29th, 2003, 01:53 PM
:rolleyes: :tape:
:kiss:

tfannis
Dec 29th, 2003, 01:57 PM
Did I spoke about Limbourg, Antwerp,... nope, I spoke about Flanders (--> West-Flanders, East Flanders)

Since when is Limburg, Antwerpen and Vlaams-Brabant not Flanders? :confused:

Brαm
Dec 29th, 2003, 01:59 PM
Since when is Limburg, Antwerpen and Vlaams-Brabant not Flanders? :confused:
Axel still lives in the 13th century :kiss:

Come-on-kim
Dec 29th, 2003, 02:15 PM
Here is what can maybe stop all that confusion

Le flamand est, au sens strict, un dialecte de la Flandre, qui s'étend du sud des Pays-Bas (Zélande) au nord de la France. D'ouest en est, il en existe plusieurs variétés.

En ce sens, le flamand n'est pas une langue officielle en Belgique, il ne doit pas être confondu avec le néerlandais. Le néerlandais des Pays-Bas et de Belgique forme une seule et même langue (comme le français en Wallonie et en France).

Néanmoins, les francophones de Belgique appellent souvent flamand tout ce que parlent leurs compatriotes (puisqu'après tout ce sont des Flamands), qu'il s'agisse du néerlandais officiel ou des dialectes flamands en tant que tels.

Translation :

Flemish is, a dialect from Flanders, which is extended from the South of the Nederland (Zeland) to the North of France. From West to East, there exists several types (of dialects)

In that way, Flemish isn't an official language in Belgium, it must not be mixed with Dutch. The Dutch of the Nederland and the Dutch of Belgium are forming the same language (like the French in Wallonia and in France)

But, the french-speaking Belgians generaly call Flemish "all what is spoken" (official Dutch or Flemish dialects) by the dutch-speaking Belgians. (finally, they are flemish, aren't they?)

Brαm
Dec 29th, 2003, 02:38 PM
Axel, can one write a text in Flemish? Or say a whole text in Flemish that everyone in Flanders can perfectly understand? No! Because there is no 1 language called Flemish. It's an umbrella term, used for a whole range of dialects!
Not everyone in the Dutchspeaking part of Flanders speaks a Flemish dialect.

There is a standard for Dutch, there is one for French... There isn't a standard form of Flemish! No dictionaries, no grammar books...

Come-on-kim
Dec 29th, 2003, 02:47 PM
I looked at the definition of the word "flamand" in the French dictionnary "Le Petit Larousse" and here is the definition :

Flamand : Ensemble des parlers néerlandais en usage en Belgique et dans la région de Dunkerque

Flemish : Set of the different ways to speak Dutch in Belgium and in the region of Dunkerque

Brαm
Dec 29th, 2003, 02:48 PM
I looked at the definition of the word "flamand" in the French dictionnary "Le Petit Larousse" and here is the definition :

Flamand : Ensemble des parlers néerlandais en usage en Belgique et dans la région de Dunkerque

Flemish : Set of the different ways to speak Dutch in Belgium and in the region of Dunkerque
So according to Larousse, someone from Limburg speaks Flemish? :lol:

Josh
Dec 29th, 2003, 02:50 PM
http://fuzzy.arts.kuleuven.ac.be/rewo/English/index2.html

:angel:

Come-on-kim
Dec 29th, 2003, 02:51 PM
Axel, can one write a text in Flemish? Or say a whole text in Flemish that everyone in Flanders can perfectly understand? No! Because there is no 1 language called Flemish. It's an umbrella term, used for a whole range of dialects!
Not everyone in the Dutchspeaking part of Flanders speaks a Flemish dialect.

There is a standard for Dutch, there is one for French... There isn't a standard form of Flemish! No dictionaries, no grammar books...
You are saying in other words what i said in the post 41 :) Flemish, word used to call the dialects from Flanders. And that definition I posted just before is saying exactly the same thing.

Come-on-kim
Dec 29th, 2003, 02:53 PM
So according to Larousse, someone from Limburg speaks Flemish? :lol:
Yes!! Because "flamand" (= flemish) is a generic word to call every single dialects in Flanders

Brαm
Dec 29th, 2003, 02:53 PM
http://fuzzy.arts.kuleuven.ac.be/rewo/English/index2.html

:angel:
What do you mean by that? :confused: I don't get it ;)

Josh
Dec 29th, 2003, 02:55 PM
What do you mean by that? :confused: I don't get it ;)

*sigh*

Do I have to write it in Flemish? ;)

Brαm
Dec 29th, 2003, 02:56 PM
*sigh*

Do I have to write it in Flemish? ;)
LOL! You can try :p

No seriously, what are you trying to tell with that website? :shrug:

Come-on-kim
Dec 29th, 2003, 02:57 PM
*sigh*

Do I have to write it in Flemish? ;)
I don't get it as well...

Come-on-kim
Dec 29th, 2003, 02:58 PM
LOL! You can try :p

No seriously, what are you trying to tell with that website? :shrug:
Maybe he wanted to point out this specific thing :

"Woordenboek van de Vlaamse Dialecten (WVD)
(dictionary of the flemish dialects) "

:confused:

Josh
Dec 29th, 2003, 03:00 PM
LOL! You can try :p

No seriously, what are you trying to tell with that website? :shrug:

Just that there are Flemish, Brabantic and Limburgish dialects. ;)
Nowadays most people call them all "Flemish" but that's because the north of Belgium is now called Flanders, which historically is sooooooooo wrong. :D

PointBlank
Dec 29th, 2003, 03:58 PM
How about saying Flemish is a group of languages under the Flemish Denomination, Like Roman Catholicism is denomination to Christianity ??

As much as I didnt want to , and still dont want to, understand it I do and I get your point which id very nicely made :sad:

gentenaire
Dec 29th, 2003, 04:40 PM
*blush*

I haven't been online much these past few days - holidays, you know.

Thank you :)

alexusjonesfan
Dec 29th, 2003, 06:37 PM
i would say japanese is a very different language from any other... aren't japanese and basque (sp?) the two languages which cannot be classified?


I think Japanese does belong to a language group (Uralo-Siberian or something of that sort...I can't remember exactly but I think it relates to certain Mongol and Turkic languages). Basque, Hungarian and Finnish (is that the correct adjective?) I think are the three European (by geography) languages which aren't Indo-European (sometimes called Indo-Aryan) in origin. The Indo-European linkage between regionally disparate languages can be quite useful at times. I speak Hindi which is a North Indian (the Indo in Indo-European) language whose root language (Sanskrit) shares quite a bit with Greek and Latin. Hindi grammar is different from English or French (Hindi uses Subject->Object->Verb order) but many words are similar. Also, in Hindi, you just add 'a' to the beginning of a word to generate the opposite etc. etc.

Latin - pater, mater
Hindi - pita (not the bread kind :p), mata

English - door
Hindi/Sanskrit - dvar

French - Tu
Hindi - Tu/Tum (used in the same way as informal 2nd person)
etc. etc.

plus other words that the English language 'borrowed' from Hindi directly like 'cummerbund' and 'guru' (damn bastards :ras::lol: )

I'm glad to have learned Hindi along with English because Hindi has 36 phonemes and when you combine that with English, you can learn many different pronunciation schemes. In languages like Mandarin and Arabic though, there are still many sounds I don't have in my verbal repertoire.:(

More to the subject of the thread, I think a lot of the posters whose mother tongue is unrelated to English (without a roman script even etc.) and live in an envionment devoid of everyday English use (although I think hollywood movies and tv reach the furthest corner of the world these days :lol: ) are the most impressive.

moby
Dec 30th, 2003, 03:09 AM
nope viggen
i think korean is the one that belongs to the Uralo-Altaic group which consists of mongolian and turkish

well, i'm so in trouble
i dont know the different pronunciation schemes of hindi... cant imagine if i try to pick it up some day

with regards to mandarin, i think the problem most foreigners have with it is the importance of tone in pronunciation. there are 4 tones for every sound and they mean different things depending on which tone you use. that's why when foreigners try to speak chinese it comes out all funny.

alexusjonesfan
Dec 30th, 2003, 03:45 AM
nope viggen
i think korean is the one that belongs to the Uralo-Altaic group which consists of mongolian and turkish


thank you :)
I've heard that the Korean script is the most elegant in the world in terms of efficiency. Can't understand a word of the language though :lol:

Well none of the Indian languages (to my knowledge) are tonal so I can only imagine the trouble I'd have with them :tape:. The phonemes in Hindi are pretty simple and intuitive actually. Every letter in the alphabet represents a sound itself (so you don't have two pronunciations, eg. the word 'aitch' vs the 'h' sound) and the sounds are grouped depending on where in the mouth you produce them (starts at short 'a' sound at the front of your mouth and moves down your tongue and throat). No tones to worry about but they still skip over some sounds. Before I die, I'd like to learn Arabic, Russian, Spanish or German and Mandarin or Japanese. I think those combined with English, French and an Indian language or two would allow me to communicate in most every country :lol:.

moby
Dec 30th, 2003, 04:31 AM
Before I die, I'd like to learn Arabic, Russian, Spanish or German and Mandarin or Japanese. I think those combined with English, French and an Indian language or two would allow me to communicate in most every country :lol:.

me too :bounce:

King Aaron
Dec 30th, 2003, 08:43 AM
who's this tine?:mad:

king aaron, well, cuz my name is not published cuz its only freelance and i'm not a member of star.

how were the results???
Oh okay :).

Lol my results? :eek: Sungguh tak percaya ni. Dapat 7A. Ingat akan dapat 4-5 As tapi :eek: masa tahu, menjerit jerit!

skanky~skanketta
Dec 30th, 2003, 08:54 AM
YEAH!!!!:yeah: CONGRATS!!!!!:kiss: :hug:

Dizzy Miss Lizzy
Dec 30th, 2003, 09:25 AM
And also the fact that Belgium is a federal country that has 3 official languages... Now, you'll hardly get a job in Brussels if you can't speak Dutch AND French... And with the European Institutions in Brussels, it is definately easier to find a job if you can speak English and then, Dutch and French.

I'm going to work in Brussels and my french sucks :o :bolt:

Dizzy Miss Lizzy
Dec 30th, 2003, 09:27 AM
And if everyone in Flanders would just speak antwerpian, life would be so much easier. ;) :angel:

Rothes
Dec 30th, 2003, 09:40 AM
I'm going to work in Brussels and my french sucks :o :bolt:

Well I live and work where the people speak Suissefrancais, and I speak SchweizerDeutsch :mad: Luckily that most speak Deutsch as their Second Language :worship:

Come-on-kim
Dec 30th, 2003, 10:39 AM
I'm going to work in Brussels and my french sucks :o :bolt:
In a shop? or in the administration? Well, if it is in a shop, if you can say the price in french, say hello, goodbye and say to the people to wait while you are calling a french seller, then it's maybe enought already ;) :p

Colin B
Dec 30th, 2003, 10:51 AM
RE: most of this thread.......

..........and some of you think English is complicated??!!

:rolleyes: ;) :confused: :D :p

King Aaron
Dec 30th, 2003, 03:54 PM
YEAH!!!!:yeah: CONGRATS!!!!!:kiss: :hug:
Thank you. :kiss:

Dizzy Miss Lizzy
Dec 30th, 2003, 04:08 PM
In a shop? or in the administration? Well, if it is in a shop, if you can say the price in french, say hello, goodbye and say to the people to wait while you are calling a french seller, then it's maybe enought already ;) :p

not in a shop :p