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View Full Version : What does player X need to do to beat player Y?


moby
Nov 25th, 2003, 11:09 AM
As we all know, all players have a few people they really hate to play against... so in this thread, we come up with strategies for them :bounce:

i'll start...

Venus vs Serena

Venus needs to get a more reliable forehand DTL (eg. slice). The board generally agrees that Serena will trump Venus more often than not in the forehand crosscourt rallies so Venus needs to hit to Serena's backhand. To go DTL, a deep forehand slice provides control and gives the opponent (serena) little to tee off on.

Justine vs Venus

Justine obviously should engage in forehand rallies with Venus because that's the side that breaks down more. A backhand DTL approach would be good for Justine to come to net as it is hit to the forehand, or Achilles heel of Venus.

any more?

Glenn
Nov 25th, 2003, 11:12 AM
Any tips for Nancy Loeffler-Caro against Justine? :confused:

moby
Nov 25th, 2003, 11:18 AM
yes...

Nancy should spike Justine's drink before the match starts.
I think it would be 50-50 then

Kart
Nov 25th, 2003, 11:59 AM
Amelie should hide Justine's supply of bananas.

It seemed to work last time.

Bezz
Nov 25th, 2003, 12:01 PM
Anyone vs the williams sisters: have the belief yu can win :rolleyes:

DA FOREHAND
Nov 25th, 2003, 03:37 PM
Venus' forehand is as reliable if not moreso and less prone to breakdown than justine's.

justine -v- Venus

justine needs to hope the surface is clay, and then again hope Venus is slightly off form.

Venus -v- Serena

Venus get to the net more often

Doraemon
Nov 25th, 2003, 03:40 PM
Jennifer vs. Venus
Jen has to meet Venus!

moby
Nov 25th, 2003, 04:11 PM
Venus' forehand is as reliable if not moreso and less prone to breakdown than justine's.

justine -v- Venus

justine needs to hope the surface is clay, and then again hope Venus is slightly off form.


I don't buy the "She's so much better so there's nothing she can do" crap when it comes to two top players.

Other than for the past few encounters Justine-Venus has always been close, even on an indoor surface like Antwerp. And Amelia Island should have been Justine's if not for the choke.

I really dont think Justine needs to hope Venus is off form on CLAY. It is more the other way round.

DA FOREHAND
Nov 25th, 2003, 04:21 PM
I don't buy the "She's so much better so there's nothing she can do" crap when it comes to two top players.

Other than for the past few encounters Justine-Venus has always been close, even on an indoor surface like Antwerp. And Amelia Island should have been Justine's if not for the choke.

I really dont think Justine needs to hope Venus is off form on CLAY. It is more the other way round.


Oh really? Well it seemed to me that justine wasn't off form at A.I., but when Venus cleaned up her game, those red spots popped up around justine's mouth and she got scared. :lol: The rest is ....history.

Glenn
Nov 25th, 2003, 04:23 PM
Hantuchova to beat anyone: EAT DAMNIT!

moby
Nov 25th, 2003, 04:23 PM
I never said Justine was off-form... I said she choked. She was obviously playing well up to the choke...

I don't see why every thread has to deteriorate into a Williams sisters versus everyone... It's just sick

Paneru
Nov 25th, 2003, 04:23 PM
I don't buy the "She's so much better so there's nothing she can do" crap when it comes to two top players.

Other than for the past few encounters Justine-Venus has always been close, even on an indoor surface like Antwerp. And Amelia Island should have been Justine's if not for the choke.

I really dont think Justine needs to hope Venus is off form on CLAY. It is more the other way round.

What you can do and putting it
into action are two different things.

SF Australian O. 03' V Williams(2) - J Henin-Hardenne(5) 6-3 6-3
SF Wimbledon 7 02' V Williams(1) - J Henin-Hardenne(6) 6-3 6-2
F Amelia I. 02' V Williams(1) - J Henin-Hardenne(2) 2-6 7-5 7-6
F Antwerp 02' V Williams-WC(1) - J Henin-Hardenne(2) 6-3 5-7 6-3
F Gold Coast 02' V Williams(1) - J Henin-Hardenne(2) 7-5 6-2
QF New Haven 01' V Williams(3) - J Henin-Hardenne(5) 6-3 5-7 6-2
F Wimbledon 01' V Williams(2) - J Henin-Hardenne(8) 6-1 3-6 6-0
3 Berlin 01' J Henin-Hardenne(13) - V Williams(2) 6-1 6-4


In all of their three setters except for Amelia Island Venus has easily one the first, lost the second(though some were tight 7-5 sets),and completely dominated in the third.

bandabou
Nov 25th, 2003, 04:30 PM
Exactly.....it looks more like Venus losing her concentration, than anything Justine did. Save perhaps Amelia Island.

Look at set scores 6-1 3-6 6-0....the outcome was never in doubt, just a slip-off.

Plus in all three-setters, save A.I., Venus was always ahead.

moby
Nov 25th, 2003, 04:33 PM
but just because justine has trouble in the past doesn't mean there's nothing she can do about it... maybe she's not going about it the right way

bandabou
Nov 25th, 2003, 04:38 PM
Yeah, I guess so. Don´t you see the 7-1 h2h?! Something must be going VERY wrong! The last two matches haven´t even come CLOSE to be close.

moby
Nov 25th, 2003, 04:43 PM
lol enough of venus-justine
let's try lindsay-kim

lindsay obviously has serious trouble with kim
i'd suggest she work on her serve and try looping heavy topspin balls to kim

kim will probably loop them back, and lindsay can take charge

bandabou
Nov 25th, 2003, 04:47 PM
Kim is a bad match-up for Lindsay, because she can take Lindsay´s best shots and can GIVE as well. To beat Kim you have to be agressive and a good-mover.

Lindsay has NEVER been the latter to begin with and now with all her injuries it´s gonna be even tougher.

slydevil6142
Nov 25th, 2003, 04:47 PM
lol enough of venus-justine
let's try lindsay-kim

lindsay obviously has serious trouble with kim
i'd suggest she work on her serve and try looping heavy topspin balls to kim

kim will probably loop them back, and lindsay can take charge

Its not her serve that fials her Its her unability to stay motivated in rallies long enough to win them. I loev lindsey but its painful to watch her lack of effort on the court.

esquímaux
Nov 25th, 2003, 04:47 PM
What does Chanda have to do to beat Kim :eek: Yuck, talk about ownage! :eek::eek::help:

Doraemon
Nov 25th, 2003, 04:48 PM
lol enough of venus-justine
let's try lindsay-kim

lindsay obviously has serious trouble with kim
i'd suggest she work on her serve and try looping heavy topspin balls to kim

kim will probably loop them back, and lindsay can take charge

Lindsay's major problem against Kim..well not just Kim but all the others ranked above her is confidence! She's really losing it these days. After the long lay-off, she had been having a serious closing-a-match problem and now it's gotten chronic and affected other areas of her game. She's not too young anymore and so don't think she can be too much better in the physcial department... I seriously doubt Lindsay will turn the table around against Kim even if she may come up with some flashy wins.

Doraemon
Nov 25th, 2003, 04:51 PM
What does Chanda have to do to beat Kim :eek: Yuck, talk about ownage! :eek::eek::help:

Honestly Chanda's game really doesn't match well with Kim's. As someone said in an other thread, Kim just does pre much everything better than Chanda.. but only net play is the only area where Chanda does better. In my opinion Kim has to be off, for Chanda to have a good shot at beating her.

Knizzle
Nov 25th, 2003, 05:05 PM
As we all know, all players have a few people they really hate to play against... so in this thread, we come up with strategies for them :bounce:

i'll start...

Venus vs Serena

Venus needs to get a more reliable forehand DTL (eg. slice). The board generally agrees that Serena will trump Venus more often than not in the forehand crosscourt rallies so Venus needs to hit to Serena's backhand. To go DTL, a deep forehand slice provides control and gives the opponent (serena) little to tee off on.

I agree with everything you said about Venus should go down the line, but flat not slice.

Justine vs Venus

Justine obviously should engage in forehand rallies with Venus because that's the side that breaks down more. A backhand DTL approach would be good for Justine to come to net as it is hit to the forehand, or Achilles heel of Venus.

any more?

Justine should just try to draw Venus to the net with dropshots and short slices because Venus doesn't seem to like to come to net NOT on her own accord. Forehand rallies wouldn't necessarily be in the the advantage of Justine since her forehand mishits alot against the power. Venus' forehand would really have to be off for that to work. Justine has to take some chances and come to the net more and hope she can deal with Venus' passing shots. She needs to be at the net 30+ times and have a good winning percentage when she gets there.

bandabou
Nov 25th, 2003, 05:06 PM
That´s the key: Chanda CAN NOT beat Kim from the baseline, so she has to develop her netgame when playing against Kim. She was really close at the YEC, a few better placed volleys and she would have beaten Kim imo....

moby
Nov 25th, 2003, 05:20 PM
I agree with everything you said about Venus should go down the line, but flat not slice.

Justine should just try to draw Venus to the net with dropshots and short slices because Venus doesn't seem to like to come to net on her own accord. Forehand rallies wouldn't necessarily be in the the advantage of Justine since her forehand mishits alot against the power. Venus' forehand would really have to be off for that to work. Justine has to take some chances and come to the net more and hope she can deal with Venus' passing shots. She needs to be at the net 30+ times and have a good winning percentage when she gets there.

:D finally what i'm looking for

yep i agree about justine drawing venus to the net
i was going to post that but you beat me to it
in fact i think venus should also try that against serena
(wasnt there a time where venus had a pretty good dropshot?)
cause while venus is a pretty good volleyer when she has to, serena's volley are sometimes :eek:

ideally of course, venus should go down the line flat. but DTL shots are generally not very safe and slice would give that edge in consistency

Knizzle
Nov 25th, 2003, 05:29 PM
Oh really? Well it seemed to me that justine wasn't off form at A.I., but when Venus cleaned up her game, those red spots popped up around justine's mouth and she got scared. :lol: The rest is ....history.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :haha:

You had better stop telling the truth like that DA FOREHAND, people don't like to hear the truth.

:tape:

Knizzle
Nov 25th, 2003, 05:35 PM
:D finally what i'm looking for

yep i agree about justine drawing venus to the net
i was going to post that but you beat me to it
in fact i think venus should also try that against serena
(wasnt there a time where venus had a pretty good dropshot?)
cause while venus is a pretty good volleyer when she has to, serena's volley are sometimes :eek:

ideally of course, venus should go down the line flat. but DTL shots are generally not very safe and slice would give that edge in consistency

Venus still has a good dropshot, but she only uses it at Wimbledon and the US Open for whatever reason. She used to use them alot more in 2000/2001, but for some reason she doesn't anymore. I wish she would because she still hits them good. Vennus doesn't have to hit that close to the sideline as long as the shot is deep and hard, then she can approach on it if she wants.

pav
Nov 25th, 2003, 05:56 PM
can someone give a detailed plan of what the top 25 players have to do to beat Alex. Stevenson???

bandabou
Nov 25th, 2003, 06:02 PM
:D finally what i'm looking for

yep i agree about justine drawing venus to the net
i was going to post that but you beat me to it
in fact i think venus should also try that against serena
(wasnt there a time where venus had a pretty good dropshot?)
cause while venus is a pretty good volleyer when she has to, serena's volley are sometimes :eek:

ideally of course, venus should go down the line flat. but DTL shots are generally not very safe and slice would give that edge in consistency

Serena isn´t natural in her volleying, but when she HAS to volley she is pretty good....look at all those matches: U.S. open ´99/ ´01 vs Lindsay, the way she saved the mp against Kim at the Oz open this year.

Knizzle
Nov 25th, 2003, 06:08 PM
Serena isn´t natural in her volleying, but when she HAS to volley she is pretty good....look at all those matches: U.S. open ´99/ ´01 vs Lindsay, the way she saved the mp against Kim at the Oz open this year.

Serena used to be as good as Venus at volleying, but for some reason this year her volleying just wasn't there. I don't understand it. Maybe she was so good from the baseline that she just stopped going to the net and lost comfort up there.

esquímaux
Nov 25th, 2003, 06:09 PM
can someone give a detailed plan of what the top 25 players have to do to beat Alex. Stevenson???


:silly:

bandabou
Nov 25th, 2003, 06:12 PM
Serena used to be as good as Venus at volleying, but for some reason this year her volleying just wasn't there. I don't understand it. Maybe she was so good from the baseline that she just stopped going to the net and lost comfort up there.

Yeah, odd isn´t it?! Maybe because she knows that NOBODY can beat her straigth up from the baseline, that she forgot about her volleying.

WhatTheDeuce
Nov 25th, 2003, 09:08 PM
Dokic vs. Davenport

Jelena has to play her best tennis. Plain and simple.

Andrew.
Nov 25th, 2003, 09:12 PM
Kim is a bad match-up for Lindsay, because she can take Lindsay´s best shots and can GIVE as well. To beat Kim you have to be agressive and a good-mover.

Lindsay has NEVER been the latter to begin with and now with all her injuries it´s gonna be even tougher.

Yep. She also needs to freaking hold her serve. If she could just do that, she would win against Kim, as she actually gets most of her games off of Kim from breaks. Just hold Lindsay! :rolleyes:

bandabou
Nov 25th, 2003, 09:13 PM
Talking about bad match-ups. Lindsay vs Jelena Dokic...man, Lindsay sure LOVES that match-up.

Andrew.
Nov 25th, 2003, 09:14 PM
Dokic vs. Davenport

Jelena has to play her best tennis. Plain and simple.

Lindsay demolished Jelena the last time, 6-2 6-1 in New Haven. Though Jelena may hit the ball hard, it seems that she only does that. She needs more weapons against Lindsay. Because lets face it - when Lindsay is on, she can power people off the court, as she did to Jelena last time.

Andrew.
Nov 25th, 2003, 09:15 PM
can someone give a detailed plan of what the top 25 players have to do to beat Alex. Stevenson???

Stand there. Return ball. Watch Alex hit UEs.

Venus Forever
Nov 25th, 2003, 09:20 PM
Venus vs. Serena

Venus has to stop being passive and letting Serena dictate play. She just waits for Serena to make the error, instead of taking the initiative. She also needs to get to net.

WhatTheDeuce
Nov 25th, 2003, 09:36 PM
Lindsay demolished Jelena the last time, 6-2 6-1 in New Haven. Though Jelena may hit the ball hard, it seems that she only does that. She needs more weapons against Lindsay. Because lets face it - when Lindsay is on, she can power people off the court, as she did to Jelena last time.
and every time they play, dokic's level goes down...ive seen a few of their matches....if jelena played up to her capability she has the power to take out davenport

bandabou
Nov 25th, 2003, 09:39 PM
Venus vs. Serena

Venus has to stop being passive and letting Serena dictate play. She just waits for Serena to make the error, instead of taking the initiative. She also needs to get to net.

Yep....that worked in the past, but right now Serena´s too good. Plus Venus is good from the baseline, but she CAN NOT beat Serena from the baseline anymore. Needs to come to the net, because she has a good winning-percentage at the net. At the Oz she made it close, by going to net....I think Venus herself is realizing this as well.

MisterQ
Nov 25th, 2003, 10:25 PM
Stand there. Return ball. Watch Alex hit UEs.

LOL!

~ The Leopard ~
Nov 25th, 2003, 11:06 PM
Okay, how is Amelie going to reverse her current dominance by Kim. Tell me, oh wise ones. :worship:

bandabou
Nov 25th, 2003, 11:13 PM
Amelie vs Kim.....another toughie. Amelie his to hit out more on her shots. She plays too much with top-spin and the balls land too short. She has ti hit-out, like she was doing during her ´99 days and of-course keep attacking the net.

So in short: play more powerful and attack the net.

moby
Nov 27th, 2003, 06:14 AM
i dont think amelie should really trade her topspin for pace. she should try to hit deeper (and heavier) obviously, and pin kim behind the baseline.

preferably she should draw kim wide to hit a one handed backhand slice and sneak in to net to volley that away. also practice the swing volley cause kim sometimes float balls back deep when she's on the defense. i don't think momo has a good swing volley?

bandabou
Nov 27th, 2003, 12:37 PM
That´s what I meant in a sense, mob....hit deeper, deeper. Amelie sometimes lets the balls land around the service line, that it is TOO short.

Je_ne_sais_quoi
Nov 27th, 2003, 03:25 PM
Mary Vs Myskina?

bandabou
Nov 27th, 2003, 03:40 PM
Mary vs Myskina?! Mary has to stop choking!!

Andrew.
Nov 27th, 2003, 03:42 PM
When Mary is on (by that, I mean her game, and her head), she can be unstopable. She was really spectacular at Fed Cup, and it is now widely speculated that she'll return to the top ten next year. Allez Mary!

Melly Flew Us
Nov 30th, 2003, 03:02 AM
i dont think amelie should really trade her topspin for pace. she should try to hit deeper (and heavier) obviously, and pin kim behind the baseline.

It's difficult to accurately hit deeper with loads of topspin and a lengthy take-back.

In order to beat Kim, Williams et al Amelie should try to shorten the swing for return of serve and get more rhythm on her own serve.

If Kim wants to beat the Williams and H-H she just needs to keep up her confidence, and drop the defensive splits/develop a running forehand/backhand.

For Ai to beat the Top Ten on a regular basis she has to develop a slighty more agressive game, in keeping with her current style, maybe reducing the margin of error and aiming for lines/angles.

Venus Forever
Nov 30th, 2003, 10:02 PM
Yep....that worked in the past, but right now Serena´s too good. Plus Venus is good from the baseline, but she CAN NOT beat Serena from the baseline anymore. Needs to come to the net, because she has a good winning-percentage at the net. At the Oz she made it close, by going to net....I think Venus herself is realizing this as well.

Actually, I think Venus CAN beat Serena from the baseline. Venus can hit with the accurancy, and even match Serena's power from the baseline, she just chooses not to for some reason. Venus is just as good as Serena from the baseline, she just chooses to play this "I'll wait for her to make the errors, and play it safely" game.

Venus is, however, the better player at the net, and when she gets there, she is dead on. I remembering watching a point in the OZ Final, where they were exchanging forehands crosscourt, when Venus decided to go up the line, ran to net, and hit a nice forehand volley crosscourt winner. It was an amazing point.

shap_half
Dec 1st, 2003, 02:55 AM
what about Myskina against the top 5? I'm really liking Myskina after seeing what she did at the YEC. She lost all her matches in three sets and defeated Ai in 2. She's really pushing who she needs to push. I'm really liking her chances of making it to the Top 5 soon

Melly Flew Us
Dec 1st, 2003, 08:30 PM
what about Myskina against the top 5? I'm really liking Myskina after seeing what she did at the YEC. She lost all her matches in three sets and defeated Ai in 2. She's really pushing who she needs to push. I'm really liking her chances of making it to the Top 5 soon

2nd serve, 2nd serve, 2nd serve.

oh, and a little more aggression. anytime she doesn't run like the wind for a ball she's mostly out of the point. she has great anticipation which is good but needs to do more than say fu on the court.

bandabou
Dec 1st, 2003, 08:39 PM
For almost all the russians, the key is to serve. As long as they have those pittyful serves, they ain´t going to really make a dent against the top 5.

bandabou
Dec 1st, 2003, 08:41 PM
Actually, I think Venus CAN beat Serena from the baseline. Venus can hit with the accurancy, and even match Serena's power from the baseline, she just chooses not to for some reason. Venus is just as good as Serena from the baseline, she just chooses to play this "I'll wait for her to make the errors, and play it safely" game.

Venus is, however, the better player at the net, and when she gets there, she is dead on. I remembering watching a point in the OZ Final, where they were exchanging forehands crosscourt, when Venus decided to go up the line, ran to net, and hit a nice forehand volley crosscourt winner. It was an amazing point.

That´s what I meant...Venus CAN beat Serena from the baseline, but it´s gonna be more difficult than when she´s willing to come to the net. She´s pretty good at the net....people talk smack about her net-game, but she´s great instinct at the net.

fried_beans
Dec 1st, 2003, 09:09 PM
Jennifer against top players...Serve huge when it matters. Go for big shots when it matters.

moby
Dec 2nd, 2003, 12:51 AM
For almost all the russians, the key is to serve. As long as they have those pittyful serves, they ain´t going to really make a dent against the top 5.

and the forehand
that side tends to break down a lot especially for the russian girls (or so martina said - i know it to be true for say zvonereva, petrova and elena)

Ryan
Dec 2nd, 2003, 12:53 AM
Venus needs to WANT to beat Serena. Ever since Serena got her win in Miami over Venus, she's played like she WANTS to win (moreso then before) and Venus needs to be aggressive and want to take Serena down. Yes their sisters and it would be extremely hard, but Venus can't play like it doesn't matter.


Amelie needs to take off some topspin and hit deeper. Her balls are service-line short and bounce too high to put her on the offense, or even in neutral. Amelie needs to shortern her swing on return especially, a little more on her backhand too IMO. And GET to net, she's so good up there it's silly not to be there less then 50% imo.

Jennifer needs to stop playing like a bitch when she gets a lead. When you're up a set at 2 all against Serena, play like you were in the first damn it! Hit your forehand hard, go for winners, get to net, and serve big. Don't play Kim tennis, because you're not as good a scrambler.

bandabou
Dec 2nd, 2003, 01:01 AM
You´re totally right about Momo, Ryan. The girl plays too soft and too short. In her match against Kim the balls were landing in the middle of the court at the service line....well, there isn´t a better way to commit suicide! And she needs to be at the net ALL the time, because she is vulnerable from the baseline.

I think that Venus WANTS to beat Serena, in the last two matches....it´s just that Serena won the bigger points. Like at the Oz 4-4, deuce in the third..Serena comes up with two big serves and is out of trouble. It´s just a few points here or there.

fried_beans
Dec 2nd, 2003, 01:05 AM
Jennifer needs to stop playing like a bitch when she gets a lead. When you're up a set at 2 all against Serena, play like you were in the first damn it! Hit your forehand hard, go for winners, get to net, and serve big. Don't play Kim tennis, because you're not as good a scrambler.

I agree 100%. She has to be crazy to think Serena is going to hand her both sets. She needs to put the pressure on in the 2nd, scare Serena a bit, and not give her time to gather herself and find a rhythm with these long rallies. She is only gonna make less errors, not more.

bandabou
Dec 2nd, 2003, 01:17 AM
But I think that once Serena gets in the rythm, there isn´t much Jen can do. Because there isn´t anything that Jen does, that Serena can´t do better.