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Volcana
Nov 23rd, 2003, 04:08 AM
I was looking at the thread on head-to-heads, and suddenly, something jumped up and bit me on the leg. Monica Seles had a VERY poor record against players she can't overpower.

Really? You say with appropriate skepticism. After all, first you have to FIND players she can't overpower, and indeed this is difficult. Three, however, come to mind. Serena Williams, Venus Williams, and Lindsay Davenport. Monica's combined record vs the three?

5-23

That's right. Five wins, TWENTY-THREE losses.

Yet, if Monica has even a LITTLE power advantage, say as in Mary Pierce or Jennifer Capriati, the head-to-heads swing to Monica's favor. 9-5 vs Jenn, 5-4 over Mary Pierce.

Meaning? Who knows? Did Monica's success come about largely because she hit harder than everyone else? Her greatest success came during a period when she was the hardest hitter on the tour. That's not the same as her greatest success came BECAUSE she was the hardest hitter on the tour.

My conclusion? Not enough data. But it IS interesting to note.

Doraemon
Nov 23rd, 2003, 04:24 AM
I think in a way the sisters are simply better not just in the power department. You know it doesn't have to be a Monica to have a lopsided losing record against the sisters. As for Davenport, Monica didn't or couldn't have the kind of mental edge she had over Pierce, Martinez, Sanchez as she had never faced Davy prior to the stabbing. So when she came back, Lindsay had no fear for Monica. Conchi and Arantxa were already traumatised by their past memories with Monica. That same can be said about Jennifer. She may be the same age as Lindsay but she debuted much earlier and so she knew how dominating Monica was back then. Those things combined I believe lead to the h2h records Monica has against them.

rada
Nov 23rd, 2003, 04:25 AM
monica beat venus in the oz 2002 and monica hit the ball just as hard some points harder...my point is monica isn't fit and can't get to all the balls but she has the power

Leo_DFP
Nov 23rd, 2003, 04:40 AM
I think in a way the sisters are simply better not just in the power department. You know it doesn't have to be a Monica to have a lopsided losing record against the sisters. As for Davenport, Monica didn't or couldn't have the kind of mental edge she had over Pierce, Martinez, Sanchez as she had never faced Davy prior to the stabbing. So when she came back, Lindsay had no fear for Monica. Conchi and Arantxa were already traumatised by their past memories with Monica. That same can be said about Jennifer. She may be the same age as Lindsay but she debuted much earlier and so she knew how dominating Monica was back then. Those things combined I believe lead to the h2h records Monica has against them.

I think Lindsay was affected by Monica's great legacy the first two times they played. She had match points in both of those encounters but couldn't close out either of them. After that, her superior game and power were too much for Monica and she dominated the rivalry.

EviLjuan
Nov 23rd, 2003, 05:12 AM
Monica and Lindsay have had some extremely close matches in the past, and in my opinion, it's Linsday's serve that let her pull the matches out. Monica just can't win the easy service games as often as Lindsay or the sisters can.

In terms of groundstroke-making ability, Monica hits as hard as the sisters, and even harder when the ball is really in her power zone. But again, it is the superior serves of the girls, as well as their speed, that prevent Monica from winning these matches.

I believe Lindsay definitely hits the ball a little harder than Monica. However there are things about Monica's groundstrokes that still make them difficult to return: short backswing/taking the ball early, flat balls hit deep that carry through the court... and of course the angles.

Of course her lack of mobility is a huge factor as well. I don't think it's a matter of Monica not being able to over-power the three mentioned opponents... it's everything else, in my opinion: serve, speed, stamina.

moby
Nov 23rd, 2003, 05:12 AM
monica also won because she was pretty fast around the court then

look at her h2h against martina h. 5-16.
she definitely could overpower martina, but martina sure could outmanoeuver her

tennisIlove09
Nov 23rd, 2003, 05:23 AM
I don't think it's the power that does it to Monica, it's the players that have use power AND angles. Remember, Monica isn't the best mover. I've always said that Jennifer is the only "big babe" that doesn't hit angles. She hits it hard, but her angles aren't as good as Lindsay, Venus, Serena.

SpikeyAidanm
Nov 23rd, 2003, 05:34 AM
The pretty much sums her 2000 year. Practically beats everyone below her but not above her. These days there many more powerful players than her, ie - Petrova, which is why I unfortunately think there is an unsubstantial amount of petrol left in the tank :sobbing: :(

disposablehero
Nov 23rd, 2003, 06:50 AM
Lindsay and the Williams are also the players who stand out as actually having a serve that Monica can't simply demolish.

disposablehero
Nov 23rd, 2003, 06:51 AM
The pretty much sums her 2000 year. Practically beats everyone below her but not above her. These days there many more powerful players than her, ie - Petrova, which is why I unfortunately think there is an unsubstantial amount of petrol left in the tank :sobbing: :(

LOL! Every time I hear the name "Petrova" on this board it is invariably someone making a comparison worth laughing at.

LeonHart
Nov 23rd, 2003, 06:59 AM
And I'm sure Martina Hingis could overpower Monica, that's why Martina has a big lead in the H2H apartment right? :lol::tape:

R&J
Nov 23rd, 2003, 07:06 AM
And I'm sure Martina Hingis could overpower Monica, that's why Martina has a big lead in the H2H apartment right? :lol::tape:
Martina Hingis was just such a great tatical player - she knew what shot to hit against Monica where and when - and she would get Monica all out of sorts; Monica would not be as set up for her shots. Therefore Monica's shots were not as potent as norm. Martina Hingis played great tennis - and she could slice and dice, drop shot, lob - tons of variety, and Monica had a hard time dealing with the change up shots.

hingis-seles
Nov 23rd, 2003, 10:12 AM
Martina and Monica. :worship:

Give me a Monica with her pre-stabbing speed and I'll give you an even head-to-head with the aforementioned players.

TheBoiledEgg
Nov 23rd, 2003, 11:39 AM
Martina and Monica. :worship:

Give me a Monica with her pre-stabbing speed and I'll give you an even head-to-head with the aforementioned players.

that won't make a difference
she's aged 10 years and NOTHING can bring that back.
you gonna be slower cos you're older.

you guys got to stop living in cloud cuckoo land.

bandabou
Nov 23rd, 2003, 11:54 AM
Interesting.....as others have said it ainīt just the power. Itīs the power AND movement that has been dooming her against the other big-babes.

Plus Lindsay and the Williamses have serves that negate Monicaīs magic on the return.

mishar
Nov 23rd, 2003, 12:18 PM
Wow. Fascinating and stunning observation. Also breaking news: the Pope is actually Catholic! Discuss.

Kart
Nov 23rd, 2003, 12:33 PM
I agree mishar :worship:.

It's a revelation.

Martian Willow
Nov 23rd, 2003, 01:17 PM
...it's got nothing to do with cloud cuckoo land, it's just that players she meets late in her career are always going to have an advantage in h2hs over players she met in her prime... :)

Volcana
Nov 23rd, 2003, 02:37 PM
Saint Seiya - Good point

Hingis-Seles - We'll never know. Pre-stabbing Monica was vastly more fit, but ten years is ten years.

Willow - Actually, most of the players Monica met late in her career have been shut out by Monica. I've no doubt she'll finish 2004 in the top ten if she's healthy all year. IMHO, she's STILL that much better than 99% of the tour.

bandabou
Nov 23rd, 2003, 03:06 PM
Not even her in prime, I doubt she could cope with the sisters. Sheīd have the same problem with them she had with Graf. Power doesnīt face the sisters and they have FAR more athletiscism than Seles ever had.

oggie
Nov 23rd, 2003, 03:43 PM
The reason that she has a losing record to these 3 players is a bit more complicated than simply power (besides, wouldn't you, using the same logic, put Mary Pierce in that category too). The truth is that Monica was rarely fit since comeback and that was a HUGE facto in most of her losses.
BTW, I agree with hingis-seles. Whenever Monica was fit and could move well, she had no problems defeating Hingis. Hingis captialized on Monica's poor movement more than any other player, although I am not using this in any way as an excuse for their h2h record.

bandabou
Nov 23rd, 2003, 03:48 PM
True about Hingis....and thatīs why her success of ī97 was gonna be difficult to match. She was genius, but she was TOO vulnerable for power.

disposablehero
Nov 23rd, 2003, 03:50 PM
Not even her in prime, I doubt she could cope with the sisters. Sheīd have the same problem with them she had with Graf.

Do you REALLY think any of the sisters fans would get that desperate? Yeah, I suppose they would.

bandabou
Nov 23rd, 2003, 03:52 PM
Someone said that in her prime Seles would wipe the floor with the sisters and that ainīt a true statement imo.

disposablehero
Nov 23rd, 2003, 03:59 PM
Someone said that in her prime Seles would wipe the floor with the sisters and that ainīt a true statement imo.

Don't know. We never saw Monica's prime.

bandabou
Nov 23rd, 2003, 04:07 PM
We havenīt seen the Williamsesīs either. Or at least not Serenaīs.

faboozadoo15
Nov 23rd, 2003, 04:10 PM
well i think she'd beat them more often than not, if you want my opinion (doubt you do). but monica was much faster... and when did she have a problem with graf??? her first year on tour, yea um okay. and people talk about monica 90-93 as if she was so slow. people act like she just powered her way through graf, which is not true. she was in steffi's head. watch monica win all the long rallies in their grand slam matches, when she was "the lesser athlete of the two." monica had great ball retrieving skills, and could bring it back with power from all parts of the court. and her return is greater than either of the sister's could muster. truth be told, if monica was in the same era of the williams sisters... who would they have copied their game off of? monica was original...

Ballbuster
Nov 23rd, 2003, 04:14 PM
Don't know. We never saw Monica's prime.

Then that Monica's Fault!

She chose to seclude herself. You Monica fans and talk about the if she, could she, would shes all you want. Yet, the facts speak for themself. She need to save face and bounce up on out of here.

But I guess the tour needs her for another year, if anything to get charity seekers to purchase tickets to see how the geriatrics play. :rolleyes:

moby
Nov 23rd, 2003, 04:22 PM
hi hater!

faboozadoo15
Nov 23rd, 2003, 04:24 PM
damn, you are so BITTER! does it make you that angry that monica will always be held in higher esteem???

the reason we did not see monica ever reach her prime is that she was stabbed by a crazed fan because she was simply too good for anyone else on tour to compete with on a consistent basis. so quickly and emphatically had she acquired the number 1 ranking from graf... simply amazing. what is even more ridiculous is that monica kept getting better every year, she was setting herself up to have ro rival in sight. even steffi had made incredible upward steps between 92 and 93-- but it simply wasn't enough... maybe she could take a set from monica when they played.

bandabou
Nov 23rd, 2003, 04:28 PM
Iīm telling you that with either sister it would be Graf-Seles all over again. The slower the court, the better chance Seles would have to win. The faster the court, the harder for Seles to win.

Can you see Seles beating a Williams on grass or hardcourts?! Me neither... on rebound ace and clay?! Maybe, but itīd be close.

Ballbuster
Nov 23rd, 2003, 04:30 PM
that won't make a difference
she's aged 10 years and NOTHING can bring that back.
you gonna be slower cos you're older.

you guys got to stop living in cloud cuckoo land.


You obviously missed this post didn't you?

Besides, I don't see why we are wasting threads about a player who is poised to get the stuffings beat out of her next year. Monica don't want to play no more. Face it!

You'll see next year when she shows up with those oversized hips and distended midsection......and you'll still be screaming go monica while she's down 6-1, 5-1.

get a life already.

Kart
Nov 23rd, 2003, 04:30 PM
Then that Monica's Fault!

She chose to seclude herself. You Monica fans and talk about the if she, could she, would shes all you want. Yet, the facts speak for themself. She need to save face and bounce up on out of here.

But I guess the tour needs her for another year, if anything to get charity seekers to purchase tickets to see how the geriatrics play. :rolleyes:

Mate :kiss: she's the same age as you. You could show them how the geriatrics play and save Monica :hearts: the trouble :).

faboozadoo15
Nov 23rd, 2003, 04:32 PM
who would watch???

o... it WOULD be funny, though, wouldn't it.... motivation enough for me.. :lol:

Ballbuster
Nov 23rd, 2003, 04:33 PM
Mate :kiss: she's the same age as you. You could show them how the geriatrics play and save Monica :hearts: the trouble :).


true!

but my stomache don't protrude, and my A$$ isn't flabby!

faboozadoo15
Nov 23rd, 2003, 04:33 PM
lol... you need to get a life. you are obsessed with monica. yet, you know none of her results... does it really hurt that bad? :tape:

Kart
Nov 23rd, 2003, 04:37 PM
true!

but my stomache don't protrude, and my A$$ isn't flabby!

Yes, but what about when you look in the mirror with eyes open ? :p ;)

I'm still waiting for you to post me your pic :hearts:.

faboozadoo15
Nov 23rd, 2003, 04:40 PM
like ballbuster will ever open his eyes... :rolleyes:

Ryan
Nov 23rd, 2003, 04:47 PM
Yes, but what about when you look in the mirror with eyes open ? :p ;)

I'm still waiting for you to post me your pic :hearts:.


ROTF! Oh god Kart, you kill me.

Martian Willow
Nov 23rd, 2003, 04:49 PM
You Monica fans and talk about the if she, could she, would shes all you want.

...there's no if she, could she, would she about nine Grand Slam titles... :)

irma
Nov 23rd, 2003, 04:57 PM
monica was so incredible good because she was one of the few people who hit could very hard and full of risk taking but still was able to control her unforced errors especially on important points. it looked like she was a computer sometimes :eek: (I mean that 100% possitive)

WhatTheDeuce
Nov 23rd, 2003, 06:14 PM
mirjana lucic leads H2H with monica seles 1:0

R&J
Nov 23rd, 2003, 08:33 PM
Monica has only lost to 51 different people.....ever. :worship:

disposablehero
Nov 23rd, 2003, 09:12 PM
We havenīt seen the Williamsesīs either. Or at least not Serenaīs.

We've seen Serena at 20 years old though. I believe it was at about 20 and half that she started piling up Slams.

bandabou
Nov 23rd, 2003, 09:18 PM
Indeed...but I think that, scary as it may sound, Serena can be EVEN better! Serena should be a GRAND SLAM-candidate, ALL-SURFACE player EVERY year....but she ainīt there yet.

disposablehero
Nov 23rd, 2003, 09:25 PM
Can you see Seles beating a Williams on grass or hardcourts?! Me neither... on rebound ace and clay?! Maybe, but itīd be close.

You mean the 19 year old Monica who ruled the world? Or maybe the player she would have been 2 years later had there been no assassination attempt?

All I know is that Monica with nearly a decade more physical and emotional baggage dropped a perfectly healthy Serena on OUTDOOR DECOTURF in 2001, thern gave her a 5-7 6-7 war the following week. (If you saw the 2nd match, you'd agree it was a 2 set WAR)

disposablehero
Nov 23rd, 2003, 09:26 PM
Indeed...but I think that, scary as it may sound, Serena can be EVEN better! Serena should be a GRAND SLAM-candidate, ALL-SURFACE player EVERY year....but she ainīt there yet.

As Monica already was at age 17.

Ballbuster
Nov 23rd, 2003, 09:30 PM
You mean the 19 year old Monica who ruled the world? Or maybe the player she would have been 2 years later had there been no assassination attempt?

All I know is that Monica with nearly a decade more physical and emotional baggage dropped a perfectly healthy Serena on OUTDOOR DECOTURF in 2001, thern gave her a 5-7 6-7 war the following week. (If you saw the 2nd match, you'd agree it was a 2 set WAR)


Like Janet Jackson said

"What have you done for me Lately"



Today she's a loser!

Martian Willow
Nov 23rd, 2003, 09:34 PM
Like Janet Jackson said

"What have you done for me Lately"



Today she's a loser!

...I think you are confused...Monica is one of the greatest ever...you are a loser... :)

fried_beans
Nov 23rd, 2003, 09:36 PM
That match in Canada with Serena was one of hte most high quality matches I have ever seen. It was amazing.

Fingon
Nov 23rd, 2003, 09:47 PM
LOL! Every time I hear the name "Petrova" on this board it is invariably someone making a comparison worth laughing at.


LOL exactly.

It happens that Petrova is one of the players I've seen quite a few of her matches in person and I really fail to understand what's all the fuss about her :shrug:

She has a good serve, good, better than average but not great, it's nothing compared to Serena's, Lindsay's, and even Kim and Justine's (when it goes in).

She has decent groundstrokes, just decent ones, she is not in the Monica/Kim/Justine/Venus/Serena/Davenport/Capriati league, just a bit above average.

Her net game is ok but she is too slow, she doesn't get there comfortably. In Rossmalen, she was winning a lot of points at the net because Justine wasn't putting enough spice on the passing shots, once Justine decided to hit them as she knows, Petrova got passed every single time.

The only thing Petrova has in common with top players is cockiness, she is cocky but doesn't have the results or the skills to support it.

Really, there are many Russian players that are better than her, but weren't so lucky to face an injured Monica and have an easy draw in a grand slam. (all Russians in the top 30 are better than her IMO).

I don't know, I think there is a sort of collective denial with Petrova.

faboozadoo15
Nov 23rd, 2003, 10:08 PM
we'll all see what heppens when she loses ealy at the french.

bandabou
Nov 23rd, 2003, 10:08 PM
As Monica already was at age 17.

Of course, but Monica started at a younger age and was more serious about her tennis than Serena imo.

After ī99 Serena said herself she wasnīt serious...because she had been she would have already surpassed Monica. But Monica, of course, has her little story as well.

bandabou
Nov 23rd, 2003, 10:11 PM
LOL exactly.

It happens that Petrova is one of the players I've seen quite a few of her matches in person and I really fail to understand what's all the fuss about her :shrug:

She has a good serve, good, better than average but not great, it's nothing compared to Serena's, Lindsay's, and even Kim and Justine's (when it goes in).

She has decent groundstrokes, just decent ones, she is not in the Monica/Kim/Justine/Venus/Serena/Davenport/Capriati league, just a bit above average.

Her net game is ok but she is too slow, she doesn't get there comfortably. In Rossmalen, she was winning a lot of points at the net because Justine wasn't putting enough spice on the passing shots, once Justine decided to hit them as she knows, Petrova got passed every single time.

The only thing Petrova has in common with top players is cockiness, she is cocky but doesn't have the results or the skills to support it.

Really, there are many Russian players that are better than her, but weren't so lucky to face an injured Monica and have an easy draw in a grand slam. (all Russians in the top 30 are better than her IMO).

I don't know, I think there is a sort of collective denial with Petrova.

I agree mostly with you, but there are only three Russians who are better than Nadia NOW.
Anastasia( best russian imo, only one I think whoīs ONE big win away of completely breaking through), Elena D and Elena B( wait till she learns the word: CONCISTENCY, then she will the best of the bunch).

Nadia is as you say average and she indeed got a bit lucky with her draw at RG...still waiting for that one BIG win.

bandabou
Nov 23rd, 2003, 10:14 PM
You mean the 19 year old Monica who ruled the world? Or maybe the player she would have been 2 years later had there been no assassination attempt?

All I know is that Monica with nearly a decade more physical and emotional baggage dropped a perfectly healthy Serena on OUTDOOR DECOTURF in 2001, thern gave her a 5-7 6-7 war the following week. (If you saw the 2nd match, you'd agree it was a 2 set WAR)

Serena had bunch of mpīs in that L.A. match, so that doesnīt say much. Serena even lost to Chanda the next year. Serena has never been good in L.A. since ī00.

Their match at Canada was the BEST non-GS match in ī01. But for all that Monica NEVER reached bp on Serenaīs serve and survived numerous bpīs on her own serve, so it was clear who was in control.

disposablehero
Nov 23rd, 2003, 10:24 PM
After ī99 Serena said herself she wasnīt serious...because she had been she would have already surpassed Monica. But Monica, of course, has her little story as well.

You Williams fans claim that people have no right to say the sisters aren't seriousw. Then when they don't establish themselves as the two greatest players of all time, you say "It's because they are not serious." So which is it.

And yes, Monica's "little story" was winning 8 of the first 14 Slams she entered. How many of her first 14 did Serena win again? Oh yeah, 1. Of course, that's not really a fair comparison, since Serena spent an extra year and refining her game before she started entering Slams. I suppose it would be fairer to compare from age 16, the age Serena started entering Slams at. Make that 8 of 11 for Monica.

faboozadoo15
Nov 23rd, 2003, 10:28 PM
bandabou- you are speculating more than we are about how good monica could have been. fact is, serena has not been hampered by not being able to achieve her greatest potential-- to take her plan into fruition. someone tried to kill monica bc they couldn't stand to see her win MORE than she already was.

we cannot compare serena's seriousness/laziness to monica being stabbed. that's just ridiculous.

didn't serena turn pro at 15... sounds kinda like monica. from what i hear from all the other williams fans is that the girls took the sport so seriosuly-- coming from a bad neighborhood wanting to make it out. that doesn't follow with what you say. and if what you say is true, i'd take monica for being serious over serena for being brilliant.

serena surpassing monica would mean nothing. it would just show how much monica was screwed over...

disposablehero
Nov 23rd, 2003, 10:28 PM
But for all that Monica NEVER reached bp on Serenaīs serve and survived numerous bpīs on her own serve, so it was clear who was in control.

Monica DID have at least one break point on Serena's serve in the second set, maybe more. And the match was THAT close despite Serena putting up the best display of serving I have ever seen.

bandabou
Nov 23rd, 2003, 10:31 PM
You Williams fans claim that people have no right to say the sisters aren't seriousw. Then when they don't establish themselves as the two greatest players of all time, you say "It's because they are not serious." So which is it.

And yes, Monica's "little story" was winning 8 of the first 14 Slams she entered. How many of her first 14 did Serena win again? Oh yeah, 1. Of course, that's not really a fair comparison, since Serena spent an extra year and refining her game before she started entering Slams. I suppose it would be fairer to compare from age 16, the age Serena started entering Slams at. Make that 8 of 11 for Monica.

With "little" story I meant the stabbing actually, but I didnīt want to write it so explitly. Thatīs why it ainīt fair to compare Serena after age 21 with Monica, because Monica never became.....although I donīt think Monica would/ could have become much better.

bandabou
Nov 23rd, 2003, 10:33 PM
Monica DID have at least one break point on Serena's serve in the second set, maybe more. And the match was THAT close despite Serena putting up the best display of serving I have ever seen.

I have the report of that match and Monica didnīt reach bp on Serenaīs serve or the report must have mistakes.

No one said Monica was a slouch, did they?! Thatīs the thing...she can play anyone close, but not beat them. Thatīs what I meant.

faboozadoo15
Nov 23rd, 2003, 10:35 PM
well then what you think is just completely bogus and unfair.
look at monica's build and serve at the 1993 australian open to her body and her serve in 92. it's incredible. she started serving harder and closer to the lines. everything about her game was better in 93. watch her against steffi-- she won all the ling rallies. steffi actually had to try to PRESS to hope to end a point quickly because she couldn't beat monica in a rally-- she was too smart and too tenacious. she was going to get better.

bandabou
Nov 23rd, 2003, 10:35 PM
bandabou- you are speculating more than we are about how good monica could have been. fact is, serena has not been hampered by not being able to achieve her greatest potential-- to take her plan into fruition. someone tried to kill monica bc they couldn't stand to see her win MORE than she already was.

we cannot compare serena's seriousness/laziness to monica being stabbed. that's just ridiculous.

didn't serena turn pro at 15... sounds kinda like monica. from what i hear from all the other williams fans is that the girls took the sport so seriosuly-- coming from a bad neighborhood wanting to make it out. that doesn't follow with what you say. and if what you say is true, i'd take monica for being serious over serena for being brilliant.

serena surpassing monica would mean nothing. it would just show how much monica was screwed over...

Serena turned pro at age 15, but when did she play her first "full" schedule?! In ī98...not ī96.

Thatīs my beef with Serena too, NO WAY should it have taken Serena two full years to reach another final...although she and Venus share the same pattern: reach one final and then two/three years nada. Difference is that Serena won her first one, so maybe she was serious but the others were better. Can happen.

faboozadoo15
Nov 23rd, 2003, 10:37 PM
she had a break point, i think... because i think pam said "this is REALLY huge." and then mary joe laughed and said "uhhh yea." then pam went on to talk about how this match was even better than the previous week... yadda yadda.

bandabou
Nov 23rd, 2003, 10:39 PM
well then what you think is just completely bogus and unfair.
look at monica's build and serve at the 1993 australian open to her body and her serve in 92. it's incredible. she started serving harder and closer to the lines. everything about her game was better in 93. watch her against steffi-- she won all the ling rallies. steffi actually had to try to PRESS to hope to end a point quickly because she couldn't beat monica in a rally-- she was too smart and too tenacious. she was going to get better.

Serena age 21 vs Monica age 21. Thatīs a mirror match. Serena had the edge in serve and athletiscism, maybe even power. Monica was tougher mentally, returns maybe more consistently,angles even.

That said, I donīt think there are many players who can beat an in form Serena from the base-line. Donīt think Monica would either. An in-form Serena could only be beaten if you force her to hit many balls, could Monica do that?!

faboozadoo15
Nov 23rd, 2003, 10:40 PM
well regardless, they've had more time to do more than monica could have bought... there's no getting around it. and monica had to take the reigns from who many now consider to be the best player of all time :rolleyes:

faboozadoo15
Nov 23rd, 2003, 10:42 PM
monica has already beaten serena from the baseline several years past monica's best... so i don't know what you're getting at. monica's ground strokes are worls more consistent, just as powerful, and better angled. only endge is serena can create more power on the run.

bandabou
Nov 23rd, 2003, 10:43 PM
Monica had mini-breaks in the tie-break....I have to re-read that report again.

faboozadoo15
Nov 23rd, 2003, 10:47 PM
that could have been it... the mini convo i remember certainly could fit under that as well.

disposablehero
Nov 23rd, 2003, 10:47 PM
I have the report of that match and Monica didnīt reach bp on Serenaīs serve or the report must have mistakes.

I have the match on tape. I am currently rewinding.

Kart
Nov 23rd, 2003, 10:48 PM
Monica saved five or six match points in that match and Serena won it on her last one before Monica would have levelled in the tie break.

disposablehero
Nov 23rd, 2003, 10:51 PM
No one said Monica was a slouch, did they?!

Actually, yes. Ballbuster said Monica is a slouch. And someone gave him positive rep for it. I don't know who, but it wasn't me. Guess I'll have to speculate.

faboozadoo15
Nov 23rd, 2003, 10:53 PM
yea... he has a new dot... though i have to question its staying power...

bandabou
Nov 23rd, 2003, 10:53 PM
monica has already beaten serena from the baseline several years past monica's best... so i don't know what you're getting at. monica's ground strokes are worls more consistent, just as powerful, and better angled. only endge is serena can create more power on the run.

Once in 5 career-meetings and in the one Serena had mpīs. Plus it ainīt like Serena would be giving Monica hitting-practice. Monica would have to move and would have to rely more and more on the one-handed forehand. Wouldnīt last long against Serena.

Serena isnīt the best EVER, but she is the best NOW.

bandabou
Nov 23rd, 2003, 10:54 PM
ballbuster,how could he?! Monica is a GREAT champion.

disposablehero
Nov 23rd, 2003, 11:05 PM
The report wasn't wrong. My memory was faulty about certain aspects of that (great) match.

bandabou
Nov 23rd, 2003, 11:10 PM
Told ya....GREAT, GREAT match indeed. In fact Serena only lost serve ONCE I think in her two matches against Jen and Monica. For women that is VERY VERY impressive!

tjord00
Nov 23rd, 2003, 11:13 PM
I think Lindsay was affected by Monica's great legacy the first two times they played. She had match points in both of those encounters but couldn't close out either of them. After that, her superior game and power were too much for Monica and she dominated the rivalry.

This is a ridiculous statement. Lindsay had match points EVERY time Monica beat her so how can you say Lindsay has a superior game and power??? If anything Monica has SUPERIOR MENTAL strength over Lindsay if she saved match points every time. I have two of those matches on tape and Monica played awesome on all the match points.

bandabou
Nov 23rd, 2003, 11:36 PM
Monica won SO many many matches because of her mental strength.

GoDominique
Nov 24th, 2003, 12:12 AM
Actually, yes. Ballbuster said Monica is a slouch. And someone gave him positive rep for it. I don't know who, but it wasn't me. Guess I'll have to speculate.

:bigwave:

Nah, not even I would sink that low. Actually I stole one of Ballbuster's green dots yesterday. :banana:

fammmmedspin
Nov 24th, 2003, 12:29 AM
It would be simpler to say that Monica has had difficulty against everyone who has been number 1 since 1996 regardless of whether they hit serves at 80 or 120 mph? The exceptions in the H2Hs are Kim and Justine where the record is too small (kim) or changes as the younger player developed (Justine) and Jennifer where Jennifer's habit of doing less well than other number 1s outside slams may increase Monica's chances even more. The point is probably not that she is beaten by this generation of number ones but that she does so well against the rest of the field. How she would be doing if she had never been attacked or was at her 1993 speed level is an interesting if unknowable question.

R&J
Nov 24th, 2003, 12:51 AM
Actually, yes. Ballbuster said Monica is a slouch. And someone gave him positive rep for it. I don't know who, but it wasn't me. Guess I'll have to speculate.
I just noticed that he (ball dude) gave me a bad rep cause I said that Monica had only lost to 51 different people........:rolleyes:
He called me a sissy a$$ for saying that. Some people are such retards.:lol:

rada
Nov 24th, 2003, 01:01 AM
monica has the power its how fit she is.......

bandabou
Nov 24th, 2003, 01:10 AM
Yep...no one can stay on top forever. As long as Monica can beat some of the -evaīs and -ovaīs sheīll do fine.

hey_britney
Nov 24th, 2003, 01:13 AM
You mean the 19 year old Monica who ruled the world? Or maybe the player she would have been 2 years later had there been no assassination attempt?

All I know is that Monica with nearly a decade more physical and emotional baggage dropped a perfectly healthy Serena on OUTDOOR DECOTURF in 2001, thern gave her a 5-7 6-7 war the following week. (If you saw the 2nd match, you'd agree it was a 2 set WAR)

I did see that match. It was a war. Serena just had a little too much, but Monica was a fraction from winning either set. Probably as well as I've ever seen Serena play, and for it to be that close says quite a bit about Seles.

hey_britney
Nov 24th, 2003, 01:15 AM
Monica DID have at least one break point on Serena's serve in the second set, maybe more. And the match was THAT close despite Serena putting up the best display of serving I have ever seen.

there was no Seles breakpoint.

bandabou
Nov 24th, 2003, 01:30 AM
Champions remain champions in a kind of a way. It ainīt like all of sudden they canīt play anymore. So yeah, it was a great match by Seles. Serenaīs serve had to really be smoking. Against a returner like Seles and no breakpoints?!

faboozadoo15
Nov 24th, 2003, 02:21 AM
yes, that was the best i think serena served in an entire match against a top player... sure shes prolly had days where she hit a few harder, but she brought it again and again...

also, i think monica had a really good serving day too... for it to be that close without ever breaking... usually she counts on that.

bandabou
Nov 24th, 2003, 02:36 AM
Yep....thatīs why when Serenaīs serve is on,itīs almost impossible to beat her. Monica lost serve just once, but still ended up losing in straigth sets.

disposablehero
Nov 24th, 2003, 03:06 AM
there was no Seles breakpoint.

Yes, upon reviewing the tape I admitted that I was mistaken on that matter.

Venus Forever
Nov 24th, 2003, 03:19 AM
Yes, upon reviewing the tape I admitted that I was mistaken on that matter.

:worship:

Actually admitted it when you were wrong, unlike that other poster you were replying to. :tape:

bandabou
Nov 24th, 2003, 03:25 AM
:worship:

Actually admitted it when you were wrong, unlike that other poster you were replying to. :tape:

Ainīt that just the truth?! :lol:

Venus Forever
Nov 24th, 2003, 03:51 AM
Ainīt that just the truth?! :lol:

And he's still not admitting that he's wrong, even in PM's. He still doesn't think Spirlea intentionally bumped Venus.

:lol: :lol:

bandabou
Nov 24th, 2003, 04:45 AM
Heīs alone in his world of denial.

rada
Nov 24th, 2003, 05:30 AM
Gosh you all are still debating that old bag.

I wouldn't be surprised if she announced her retirement at the AO. Heck, Monica is getting her life on; eating milky-way bars, hagen-daz ice cream and vegging out with late night movies and pizza.

You'll see! She'll come back just fat and fine as ever!

wow ur so smart(not), u must be some fat shit that eats milky ways all day u sure know ur food ,monica has done and will still do more then u in life u seem like a crap person,,,

Scorch
Nov 24th, 2003, 09:30 AM
I agree with people who have said that it is the serve as much as the power that hurts monica most. Venus, Serena and Lindsay all have great first and second serves, other players with equally good ground strokes are not as successful because monica can get the first strike in.

Another point I would like to make re. the difference between monica now and monica pre 1993 is that monica does not hate losing as much as she did back then. Without the hate for losing she is just not the same player. She has been through so much shit and has experiences some harsh truths about life and sees tennis in a different light. Without the hate for losing she is not as motivated.

Plus the fact that when she was dominating the world she was in fact part of a double act - it was monica and her father that rules womens tennis. Without her dad she is missing a very very important part of her game.

bandabou
Nov 24th, 2003, 09:39 AM
Yep....even after the stabbing she reached four finals at slams, but none after her dad passed away. So that obviously had a BIG impact on Monica.

hingis-seles
Nov 24th, 2003, 09:43 AM
Yep....even after the stabbing she reached four finals at slams, but none after her dad passed away. So that obviously had a BIG impact on Monica.

Actually she reached three Slam finals after the stabbing but before her dad passed away. The RG 1998 final was 3 weeks after her dad passed away.

He was the architect of her game. It's quite sad. She was so close to him.

bandabou
Nov 24th, 2003, 09:50 AM
How does it become three then?!Since ī98 there havenīt been any slam-final for Seles. Or am I wrong?! :scratch:

hingis-seles
Nov 24th, 2003, 10:35 AM
How does it become three then?!Since ī98 there havenīt been any slam-final for Seles. Or am I wrong?! :scratch:

You said she hasn't reached any Slam finals since her dad passed away.
I was just pointing out that she reached the final of 1998 Roland Garros, which was after her father's passing. :)

Sofiane
Nov 24th, 2003, 02:41 PM
Monica hasn't such an impressive record against Pierce, it's 5-4 for monica, but Mary won the last three.

Dawn Marie
Nov 24th, 2003, 04:14 PM
I disagree with those who say that it is the serve that hurts Seles the most. Monica has lost to players who have ok serves as well as those who have big serves.

The problem with Seles is her fitness. It has been this lack of getting her behind in the best shape possible that has stopped her from getting another slam.

I think if she gets into 100% physical shape now that it is just too late. Now she has this foot injury which she intends to play day to day on.

Face facts Monica had a great career, and is such a nice person.. yet she will probably have to retire due to injury.

I see the writing on the all, Seles is going to go down.. and sadly it will be due to that recurring injury and her fitness.

It is silly to compare Seles to alot of players, as the tour is faster,has hard hitting angles and movememt with net game. To win grandslams you have to posess all these elements and sadly Seles doesn't have this is her arsenal. If anything she has become a liabilty.

Although, I hope she can get back inside the top 15 and show reasonable results in 2004.

DA FOREHAND
Nov 24th, 2003, 07:32 PM
4-6 h2h 89-93.....Graf trumped Monica more times than not. She had the speed was athletic, and had a great serve. She was one of the few players who could consistantly make her go to one hand.

VivalaSeles
Nov 24th, 2003, 07:39 PM
4-6 h2h 89-93.....Graf trumped Monica more times than not. She had the speed was athletic, and had a great serve. She was one of the few players who could consistantly make her go to one hand.

You forget to point out THREE facts:

1. Monica had become pro in February 1989
2. Monica was 15 years old until December 1989
3. The first three Monica losses happened during the year she became pro and was 15 years old

bandabou
Nov 24th, 2003, 07:50 PM
But the divise remains the same: When you have power AND athletiscism, Monicaīs gonna have a VERY tough time beating you.

Seenus
Nov 24th, 2003, 08:13 PM
I believe that Monica was better than Steffi. (this is just my belief but you can crucify me if you disagree.)
At their prime I rate the best players as:
Serena
Venus
Monica
Steffi
Martina
For their time I rate:
Martina
Monica
Steffi
Hingis
Serena