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Volcana
Sep 19th, 2003, 04:52 PM
Non-USA-ers, hold off responding for a while. I'm curious how my fellow Americans (not that they all would consider me one) feel on the subject.

GBFH
Sep 19th, 2003, 05:29 PM
erm, no.

like DD said, they're doin' their thang, we're doin' ours.

ys
Sep 19th, 2003, 06:10 PM
Off course not, they are just not against USA, they are just NOT USA, just someone with their own political interests that are not 100% the same as American.

Bezz
Sep 20th, 2003, 03:28 PM
OK i held off for a day. ;)

I dont think they are enemies but bush certianly does not like chirac at the minute and vice versa. Today blair schreoder and chirac met and Blair and Chirac still look as if they aint gettin on, so it will probably be worse for Bush.

America at the minute is pissing pretty much everyone off cos they refuse to compromise one bit. They want other countries to risk thier soldiers lives by going to Iraq yet america is giving nothing in return. It wont give control to the UN and wont set a date for power to be given back the the Iraqis. I cant wait until both Chirac and Bush leave power cos IMHO opinion they are shit leaders and to arrogant to do the right thing.

Oh and American foreign policy is near enough the worst it has ever been. :rolleyes:

kiwifan
Sep 20th, 2003, 03:47 PM
No the French are not our enemy.

They are like our cowardly older cousin, scolding us, yet secretly hoping that we will do the dirty work anyway.

The older cousin who complains when we visit because we might mess up his distinctive "decorating style" but whines and cries when we don't visit because he wants us to admire his "decorating style" since that's really all he has to offer "the family".

I used to really like the French as a kid but every year I have less and less respect for their Chickenshit ways.

They are playing the political game correctly for themselves; in the short term.

King Satan
Sep 20th, 2003, 07:51 PM
yes. let's bomb them.

Barrie_Dude
Sep 20th, 2003, 07:53 PM
No, they are just being "French"! :rolleyes:

Nicoleke
Sep 20th, 2003, 09:09 PM
No, they are just being "French"! :rolleyes:
Pffffffffft @ Barrie :p lol,

France and The United states never be " enemy ", and the fact that we can be " enemy " is just in american people mind !!!!!!

Malin
Sep 21st, 2003, 12:29 AM
the french will never be a threat to the US, we always end up having to save their asses anyways.

Barrie_Dude
Sep 21st, 2003, 04:23 AM
Pffffffffft @ Barrie :p lol,

France and The United states never be " enemy ", and the fact that we can be " enemy " is just in american people mind !!!!!!
Nicole! You cannot possibly be my enemy! I love you far too much!

vs1
Sep 21st, 2003, 05:43 AM
Hmmm...I definitely don't think they are. They are somewhat scapegoated and at the same time, what country doesn't have a love/hate relationship with the USA? They have how we invade their culture with our "trash" yet they also realise that we are a huge superpower in all sense of the word...militarily, economically, politically, socially...so we're an evil they need to deal and live with...and there's lots about the USA that people envy, yet there's lots about our country that they despise.

So in a word: NO.

Nicoleke
Sep 21st, 2003, 10:34 AM
Nicole! You cannot possibly be my enemy! I love you far too much!
You' re not american Barrie ;), Canada and the Usa aren' t the same country :p lol !!!!!

French people quite like american people I think, and french people LOVE canadian people, especially quebecoise :hearts: !!!!!

Nicoleke
Sep 21st, 2003, 10:37 AM
that we are a huge superpower in all sense of the word...militarily, economically, politically, socially...

I agree with that execpt for the " socially " part. Politically, you' re right, but the Usa are are the proof that it is not necessary to be intelligent to be a president.

vs1
Sep 21st, 2003, 01:09 PM
I agree with that execpt for the " socially " part. Politically, you' re right, but the Usa are are the proof that it is not necessary to be intelligent to be a president.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Nicoleke...we have the dumbest president to walk the earth!!! :lol:
The scary thing is that dumb people in power can really do damaging things to their country and the world. :sad: Look at what Bush has done SO FAR!!! :eek: :mad:

Jennifer's wife
Sep 21st, 2003, 02:52 PM
France has always sat on the fence during world wars.....;) Thats the general British opinion, so our only reaction this time round was quelle suprise!! :rolleyes:

gentenaire
Sep 21st, 2003, 03:21 PM
France has always sat on the fence during world wars.....;) Thats the general British opinion, so our only reaction this time round was quelle suprise!! :rolleyes:

One in six young French men died, I'm sure the French appreciate these kind of comments :rolleyes:

King Satan
Sep 21st, 2003, 03:47 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Nicoleke...we have the dumbest president to walk the earth!!! :lol:
The scary thing is that dumb people in power can really do damaging things to their country and the world. :sad: Look at what Bush has done SO FAR!!! :eek: :mad:
he might be a moron lol, but atleast he's always straight up with us. we always know where he stands on a subject.

Mase
Sep 21st, 2003, 03:53 PM
We are our own worst enemies.

propi
Sep 21st, 2003, 04:46 PM
:lol: @ this thread

Different countries= Different people= different way of living= different way of watching things =different interests
Vive la difference! :)

Jennifer's wife
Sep 21st, 2003, 04:52 PM
One in six young French men died, I'm sure the French appreciate these kind of comments :rolleyes:

it gets kinda dangerous sittin on the fence in plain veiw of all to see!! :lol: im just joking, but i sed that is the veiw of much of britain, i didnt say it was mine! im just playing devils advocate! :devil: and i am of course talking about our tabloid press and its comments, b4 i get accused of speaking for the whole of Britain aswell here! :D


and DD, i hope thats a good thing! ;) :D i for one have never understood the facination with runny, stinky cheese! :lol: :unsure:

kiwifan
Sep 21st, 2003, 06:43 PM
One in six young French men died, I'm sure the French appreciate these kind of comments :rolleyes:

Well maybe if the other 5 of 6 weren't busy dancing in the streets :rolleyes: and rounding up their Jews for "special delivery" :tape: as the Nazis entered their towns (oh and then of course dancing in the streets and claiming to be part of the "resistence" :lol: when the Yanks and Brits liberated them later) while thier sisters spread social diseases :devil: throughout the ranks of both Allies and Axis; and kept the guns in their hands :devil: , we'd care what they appreciate. :devil:

Both cowards (French) and heros (Allied Forces) die in war. :p

Lately the French don't seem to respect those who went down for them in WW II let's just keep the lack of respect mutual. :devil:

Their legacy of cowardace and weasel-like behavior was established in WW II and they've done little to improve upon that legacy since.

Cheers - :cool:

Car Key Boi
Sep 21st, 2003, 07:38 PM
Well maybe if the other 5 of 6 weren't busy dancing in the streets :rolleyes: and rounding up their Jews for "special delivery" :tape: as the Nazis entered their towns (oh and then of course dancing in the streets and claiming to be part of the "resistence" :lol: when the Yanks and Brits liberated them later) while thier sisters spread social diseases :devil: throughout the ranks of both Allies and Axis; and kept the guns in their hands :devil: , we'd care what they appreciate. :devil:

Both cowards (French) and heros (Allied Forces) die in war. :p

Lately the French don't seem to respect those who went down for them in WW II let's just keep the lack of respect mutual. :devil:

Their legacy of cowardace and weasel-like behavior was established in WW II and they've done little to improve upon that legacy since.

Cheers - :cool:

i don't think the CKB has ever used the worship similey, but this post has brought the CKB to HIS KNEES

:worship: Kiwifan :worship:

Josh
Sep 21st, 2003, 07:46 PM
Well maybe if the other 5 of 6 weren't busy dancing in the streets :rolleyes: and rounding up their Jews for "special delivery" :tape: as the Nazis entered their towns (oh and then of course dancing in the streets and claiming to be part of the "resistence" :lol: when the Yanks and Brits liberated them later) while thier sisters spread social diseases :devil: throughout the ranks of both Allies and Axis; and kept the guns in their hands :devil: , we'd care what they appreciate. :devil:

Both cowards (French) and heros (Allied Forces) die in war. :p

Lately the French don't seem to respect those who went down for them in WW II let's just keep the lack of respect mutual. :devil:

Their legacy of cowardace and weasel-like behavior was established in WW II and they've done little to improve upon that legacy since.

Cheers - :cool:

Yes, I'm sure the Americans can claim moral superiority in this case. After all, they didn't wait until the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor into oblivion before coming to the rescua of the millions of Jews they seem to love so much.
They did not put their Japanese citizens into camps without a valid reason.
They did not drop two atomic bombs which killed hundred thousands of civilians.

And about mutual respect, it seems like you have forgotten who helped you gain independence in 1776....

I hope I've been as insulting and prejudiced as you were. :rolleyes:

gentenaire
Sep 21st, 2003, 07:50 PM
Yes, I'm sure the Americans can claim moral superiority in this case. After all, they didn't wait until the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor into oblivion before coming to the rescua of the millions of Jews they seem to love so much.
They did not put their Japanese citizens into camps without a valid reason.
They did not drop two atomic bombs which killed hundred thousands of civilians.

And about mutual respect, it seems like you have forgotten who helped you gain independence in 1776....

I hope I've been as insulting and prejudiced as you were. :rolleyes:

and this post has brought me to my knees :worship:

Steam
Sep 21st, 2003, 08:02 PM
Yes, I'm sure the Americans can claim moral superiority in this case. After all, they didn't wait until the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor into oblivion before coming to the rescua of the millions of Jews they seem to love so much.
They did not put their Japanese citizens into camps without a valid reason.
They did not drop two atomic bombs which killed hundred thousands of civilians.

And about mutual respect, it seems like you have forgotten who helped you gain independence in 1776....

I hope I've been as insulting and prejudiced as you were. :rolleyes:

No matter what America does someone will always find problem with it. It is just the way things work when you are the most recognized country in the world.

As for the Revolutionary War, where was France in the beginning? They waited until the US rebounded until finally giving us much needed and appreciated help. Then they more than repaid the favor in the years since then. But it is not about who owes who, it is about what is best for each country and the world at large. They chose not to help in Iraq and that was their choice. I just they aren't looking for our help when they need it.

Josh
Sep 21st, 2003, 08:05 PM
No matter what America does someone will always find problem with it. It is just the way things work when you are the most recognized country in the world.

As for the Revolutionary War, where was France in the beginning? They waited until the US rebounded until finally giving us much needed and appreciated help. Then they more than repaid the favor in the years since then. But it is not about who owes who, it is about what is best for each country and the world at large. They chose not to help in Iraq and that was their choice. I just they aren't looking for our help when they need it.

You're absolutely right but my post was just the equivalent of the insulting and stupid post above.

Josh
Sep 21st, 2003, 08:13 PM
jeez! how did this thread become a jew loving/abandoning thread...lol! but you're correct in this josh. ABSOLUTELY NO ONE can claim moral superiority when it comes to WWII and the jews. NO ONE. every country's hands are stained with that one...yes, even america.

Well, it seems like you contributed to that as well with your reply of a part of kiwifan's post about the jews.

But I agree with you, every country should look at and rethink its own actions during WWII before criticising others.

decemberlove
Sep 21st, 2003, 08:23 PM
jeez! how did this thread become a jew loving/abandoning thread...lol! but you're correct in this josh. ABSOLUTELY NO ONE can claim moral superiority when it comes to WWII and the jews. NO ONE. every country's hands are stained with that one...yes, even america.

i dont think anyone can claim moral superiority in any case. when theres that much power at stake, its natural for a country to be selfish and look for their best interest. its rare that a country does something for reason of actually wanting to help someone and for that reason ONLY... there are always benefits, whether it be a PR move or financial, economical, etc.

gentenaire
Sep 21st, 2003, 08:35 PM
no doubt. actually, it isn't rare. it's non-existent. in the case of america, the benefit was financial. thank G-d for money.

Had it been about compassion, maybe they would have tried to get to the concentration camps sooner, bombed a few railway lines maybe to stop or at least delay the deportations.

War does strange things to people. We've never had to live through it, we shouldn't judge.

propi
Sep 21st, 2003, 09:24 PM
I think the question is Is France the Enemy of the United States???
Yes ------->1
no--------->17
If you want to continue talking about who are cowards and IIWW is up to you, but the result of the poll says it all.... :)

Halardfan
Sep 21st, 2003, 09:34 PM
I seriously doubt anyone here can reasonably take blame/credit for what happened in 1776! :D

Heck I still think we Brits we the good guys in that conflict, and that France and the treacherous rebels and everyone else who teamed up on us, was wrong! :p ;) Just think, without the war, America might have ended up like Canada! :)

I'll leave you to decide if that would be a good or a bad thing. ;)

Am I allowed to bear grudges for 1066, or perhaps the French would like to bring up for Joan of Arc...

Mmm, they probably would. ;)

Its all a bit silly...

Thanks goodness GW does NOT speak for all of America, much as he and his delusional supporters might like to think so...but France too is not without blame in this broken relationship...it was, I beleive, right over Iraq, but I don't believe its position had much to do with morality, rather it acted in what it saw as its own interests, the same as Britain and the US.

Steam
Sep 21st, 2003, 10:47 PM
I seriously doubt anyone here can reasonably take blame/credit for what happened in 1776! :D

Heck I still think we Brits we the good guys in that conflict, and that France and the treacherous rebels and everyone else who teamed up on us, was wrong! :p ;) Just think, without the war, America might have ended up like Canada! :)

I'll leave you to decide if that would be a good or a bad thing. ;)

Am I allowed to bear grudges for 1066, or perhaps the French would like to bring up for Joan of Arc...

Mmm, they probably would. ;)

Its all a bit silly...

Thanks goodness GW does NOT speak for all of America, much as he and his delusional supporters might like to think so...but France too is not without blame in this broken relationship...it was, I beleive, right over Iraq, but I don't believe its position had much to do with morality, rather it acted in what it saw as its own interests, the same as Britain and the US.

Well, maybe if your ancestors weren't a bunch of fucking tyrants we wouldn't have had to rebel!

Wait, my ancestors are British....I'm confused. :confused:

GBFH
Sep 21st, 2003, 10:55 PM
the British aren't to blame for the American revolution, CB? okay. maybe you're joking, and i'm being slow on the uptake again. wouldn't be the first time.

propi
Sep 21st, 2003, 11:04 PM
:lol: :lol: propi you bubble burster you! ;)
You don't know how much I do enjoy with this :drool: ;)
Wow one against 20 and counting.....

Bероника
Sep 22nd, 2003, 09:10 AM
:lol: @ this thread

Different countries= Different people= different way of living= different way of watching things =different interests
Vive la difference! :)

exactly

Halardfan
Sep 22nd, 2003, 09:58 AM
Steam, maybe you've been watching "The Patriot" too much eh? ;)

Many of the British colonists stayed loyal to Britain anyway, and chose to return to the mother country after Britain decided the colony was more trouble than it was worth. ;)

I don't think, as far as white Americans are concerned, the British government of the time represented tyranny...

For Black people and native Americans it was a different matter. Now they DID have a case for revolution.

Of course, after the birth of freedom and enlightenment in 1776, things would naturally get whole lot better for these groups. (cough)

All of which has nothing to do with my point...that fighting over who did what to whom in distant history is pretty futile.

Can't we all just get along? :) ;)

Joana
Sep 22nd, 2003, 10:10 AM
:rolleyes:

kku
Sep 22nd, 2003, 11:40 AM
On Google.com, type in "french military victories", then click "i'm feeling lucky today"...you'll see why ;)

Here's a joke I found on a lj community;

An American, a German and a Frenchman are all in Saudi Arabia, sharing a smuggled crate of booze when, all of a sudden, Saudi police rush in and arrest them.

The mere possession of alcohol is a severe offense in Saudi Arabia, so for the terrible crime of actually being caught consuming the booze, they are all sentenced to death! However, after many months and with the help of very good lawyers, they are able to successfully appeal their sentences down to life imprisonment. By a stroke of luck, it was a Saudi national holiday the day their trial finished, and the extremely benevolent Sheik decided they could be released after receiving just 20 lashes each of the whip.

As they were preparing for their punishment, the Sheik announced: "It's my first wife's birthday today, and she has asked me to allow each of you one wish before your whipping."

The German was first in line, he thought for a while and then said: "Please tie a pillow to my back." This was done, but the pillow only lasted 10 lashes before the whip went through. When the punishment was done the German had to be carried away bleeding and crying with pain.

The Frenchman was next up. After watching the German in horror he said smugly: "Please fix two pillows to my back." But even two pillows could only take 15 lashes before the whip went through again and the Frenchman was soon led away whimpering loudly (as they all do).

The American was the last one up, but before he could say anything, the Sheik turned to him and said: "You are from a most beautiful part of the world and your culture is one of the finest in the world. For this, you may have two wishes!"

"Thank you, your Most Royal and Merciful highness", The American replied. "In recognition of your kindness, my first wish is that you give me not 20, but 100 lashes."

"Not only are you an honorable, handsome and powerful man, you are also very brave," the Sheik said with an admiring look on his face. "If 100 lashes is what you desire, then so be it. And your second wish, what is it to be?" the Sheik asked.

The American smiled and said, "Tie the Frenchman to my back."

Credit goes to "Storvik"

:lol: :lol: :lol: Sorry to all the French people here, but I found that joke to be funny ;) Don't get me wrong, because I haven't met many French people, so I have no opinion of them whatsoever.

Volcana
Sep 22nd, 2003, 12:23 PM
Suppose you drive to a bar to meet someone. You have quite a lot of alcohol. You determine to drive home. Your associate says you shouldn't drive, and even tries to take your car keys.

Is that a friend? Or an enemy?

You angrily refuse and set off driving. And promptly hit a pedestrian. So you call your assiciate and tell him to come get you out of this, but you insist you're still driving the rest of the way home. The associate refuses to help you.

Are these the actions of a friend? Or an enemy?

The French said giving UN weapons inspectors more time wouod save lives. We said we KNEW Hussein had WMD. The French were right.

The French said the invasion would be seen as occupation, not liberation, if the USA proceeeded without UN sanction. The USA replied "We'll be greeted as liberators. All the ground troop will have to do is take name, rank ansd serial number." The French were right.

The USA assumed it could steal Iraq's oil to pay for the war, so keeping member states of the UN happy wasn't necessary. It turns out it going to be years before Iraq even gets back up to the capacty it had before the war. So now Bush goes to the UN and says, "We were right. Yo were wrong. We don't need you. Oh and by the way, give us your treausre and the blood of your young to help us correct our (non) mistakes."

Mercury Rising
Sep 22nd, 2003, 01:12 PM
On Google.com, type in "french military victories", then click "i'm feeling lucky today"...you'll see why ;)

Here's a joke I found on a lj community;

An American, a German and a Frenchman are all in Saudi Arabia, sharing a smuggled crate of booze when, all of a sudden, Saudi police rush in and arrest them.

The mere possession of alcohol is a severe offense in Saudi Arabia, so for the terrible crime of actually being caught consuming the booze, they are all sentenced to death! However, after many months and with the help of very good lawyers, they are able to successfully appeal their sentences down to life imprisonment. By a stroke of luck, it was a Saudi national holiday the day their trial finished, and the extremely benevolent Sheik decided they could be released after receiving just 20 lashes each of the whip.

As they were preparing for their punishment, the Sheik announced: "It's my first wife's birthday today, and she has asked me to allow each of you one wish before your whipping."

The German was first in line, he thought for a while and then said: "Please tie a pillow to my back." This was done, but the pillow only lasted 10 lashes before the whip went through. When the punishment was done the German had to be carried away bleeding and crying with pain.

The Frenchman was next up. After watching the German in horror he said smugly: "Please fix two pillows to my back." But even two pillows could only take 15 lashes before the whip went through again and the Frenchman was soon led away whimpering loudly (as they all do).

The American was the last one up, but before he could say anything, the Sheik turned to him and said: "You are from a most beautiful part of the world and your culture is one of the finest in the world. For this, you may have two wishes!"

"Thank you, your Most Royal and Merciful highness", The American replied. "In recognition of your kindness, my first wish is that you give me not 20, but 100 lashes."

"Not only are you an honorable, handsome and powerful man, you are also very brave," the Sheik said with an admiring look on his face. "If 100 lashes is what you desire, then so be it. And your second wish, what is it to be?" the Sheik asked.

The American smiled and said, "Tie the Frenchman to my back."

Credit goes to "Storvik"

:lol: :lol: :lol: Sorry to all the French people here, but I found that joke to be funny ;) Don't get me wrong, because I haven't met many French people, so I have no opinion of them whatsoever.
:lol: :lol: :lol: good one!!

kiwifan
Sep 22nd, 2003, 03:18 PM
Oh Veronika, Veronika, I know nothing of you but poor little baby, you went and gave me a cute little red dot without commentary...

...That makes you an angry (red dot) dumbass (nothing to add) :p

I don't mind crititcism, (do I Tine? :p ), but come on if you're not bright enough, just stay on the sidelines. Boring me is a mortal sin. :devil:

I hereby ban you from reading my future posts.

Josh, good on ya for attacking my posts out in the open. If the French only shared your courage... :devil:

Tine, as always you need to see the bigger picture. Once again you are exposing the Euro attitude of looking to Uncle Sam to clean up your messes.

Check the Declarations of War and we clearly didn't get into WW II to save a single Jewish life and no one here has made that claim. Any Final Solution related motivations of Allies is truly revisionist history.

Bombing railroad tracks? We thought the Belgians would do something...

...I guess "France Jr" couldn't find 5 Brave Belgians with crowbars to derail the trains. :p

Nope, just sit back and point fingers and complain :lol:

Cheers - :cool:

Uh Veronika, stop reading my posts now.

gentenaire
Sep 22nd, 2003, 03:28 PM
actually, the one deportation train that was stopped was by the Belgian resistance! They didn't have airplanes to bomb the tracks from the air, they had to take a lot more risks. Also, the Belgians knew a lot less about what was going on than the Americans. The Americans knew for a very long time that people were being gassed, but nothing was done for the longest time.
The general public didn't know.

I'm just sick of this American attitude I so often witness, like that single minded one-sided post of yours. Goodies vs. baddies (the Americans of course being the goodies) The moment I hear an American say, "if it wasn't for us, you'd be speaking German," is the moment I realise there's no use discussing anything sensible with this American.

Fortunately, I know Americans who do see the bigger picture.

And when will people realise that the person with the biggest gun is not necessarily right?

Halardfan
Sep 22nd, 2003, 03:40 PM
Volcana, I very much agree with your assement of the deeply dubious US and indeed UK actions in regards to Iraq, but I think the French approach wasn't perhaps as based on virtue as you suggest...make no mistake, I think the French government were on the right side in that affair, but as much through financial self interest as any of the factors you mention.

The US, UK AND France, among many others, have Iraqi blood on their hands, one way or another.

gentenaire
Sep 22nd, 2003, 03:45 PM
I agree with Chris. The French motives were just as bad as the American motives. But at least the French didn't attack the Americans the way the Americans attacked the French culture. It looks even sillier now that it's clear the French, whatever their motives were, were right! That everyone who felt the inspectors needed more time were right!

gentenaire
Sep 22nd, 2003, 03:53 PM
ah, tine...from a thread asking if france is a friend to the u.s., this has gotten all the way to gassing jews. oy vey! :eek:

Hey, I didn't start it!

gentenaire
Sep 22nd, 2003, 04:05 PM
oh that's right! it's that horrible kiwifan person ;) who started that subject...

Blame Canada!

btw, tine, "hey, i didn't start it" is the mother of all elementary answers. :p

And is "he started it by hitting back" the mother of secondary answers? ;)

gentenaire
Sep 22nd, 2003, 04:13 PM
:o edited

Why oh why does English have to be different from other languages? Why does English have to use an -o- instead of a -u- as in other languages? ;)

ys
Sep 22nd, 2003, 04:15 PM
The moment I hear an American say, "if it wasn't for us, you'd be speaking German," is the moment I realise there's no use discussing anything sensible with this American.

This is really wrong. In reality, if it was not for them, you'd probably be speaking Russian. :devil:

tennisjam
Sep 22nd, 2003, 04:17 PM
:o :rolleyes:

gentenaire
Sep 22nd, 2003, 04:26 PM
This is really wrong. In reality, if it was not for them, you'd probably be speaking Russian. :devil:

We'd all be commies...wait...quite a few believe we're commies anyway ;)

ys
Sep 22nd, 2003, 04:48 PM
No the French are not our enemy.

They are like our cowardly older cousin, scolding us, yet secretly hoping that we will do the dirty work anyway.

The older cousin who complains when we visit because we might mess up his distinctive "decorating style" but whines and cries when we don't visit because he wants us to admire his "decorating style" since that's really all he has to offer "the family".


That's an interesting comparison. Working well for beer-drinking, bowling-playing NFL-watching proles with American flags glued to every item of their underwear..

As to American elite.. I recently received a guide to fine dining in New York City, and out of 200 best restaurants of New York mentioned there nearly half has French names and refers French cuisine. Perhaps we do admire that damn "decorating style"..

kiwifan
Sep 22nd, 2003, 05:31 PM
I didn't say we didn't admire or shouldn't admire their "decorating style".

Why don't you just admit that I made one "groovy" analogy. :p

Maybe someday we'll have a thread about the American wealthy elite hiding behind Euro culture as a means to keep down the masses. :p

Tine, so France Jr. spreads fairy tales about resistance movements too :p

Funny how Euros never know about bad things going on in Europe, but Uncle Sam "knows all".

I've already admitted that Uncle Sam didn't give a damn, any truths coming from the Belgian camp, Tine?

ys check your rep :p

decemberlove
Sep 22nd, 2003, 05:34 PM
this should be a public poll so we can see the three assholes who voted "yes"

gentenaire
Sep 22nd, 2003, 05:38 PM
Fairy tales? Are you saying my grandparents are liars? They didn't KNOW! How were they supposed to know?

Funny how Americans keep saying we don't know what we've done wrong (read our newspapers, our history books and you'll get a different view), while constantly reminding us we're the baddies and they're the goodies.

We've analysed how it's possible that these kind of things could have happened in detail, in order to prevent it from happening again. When I see the actions of the US military, I've often wondered why they never learn from previous mistakes.

kiwifan
Sep 22nd, 2003, 05:59 PM
Fairy tales? Are you saying my grandparents are liars? They didn't KNOW! How were they supposed to know?

Funny how Americans keep saying we don't know what we've done wrong (read our newspapers, our history books and you'll get a different view), while constantly reminding us we're the baddies and they're the goodies.

We've analysed how it's possible that these kind of things could have happened in detail, in order to prevent it from happening again. When I see the actions of the US military, I've often wondered why they never learn from previous mistakes.

That's funny because yes I was specifically thinking about your Grandparents.

I bet they also told you about Santa Claus and the toothfairy, right.

I can imagine them once claiming they knew magic and fooling you by pulling a coin "out of your ear". You laughed and smiled and everything was right in the world.

Shame on them.

By the way, I hope they are still living and that you are aware that my comments above were made in humour and with the affection that I always carry into our little debates.
:kiss:

Come on though, in 1945 wasn't everyone in Europe in the "resistance".

Its amazing the Nazis could won a single battle with all the "resistance" going on over there. :p

By the way if a certain someone is reading this post, STOP READING!!! :fiery:

I would also like to humbly point out that I started out with the declaration that France was not our enemy. :angel:

kiwifan
Sep 22nd, 2003, 06:17 PM
we live in a time when nuclear war is no longer a possibility but a probability...and biochems are stockpiled by the ton.

there is only one way to prevent what happened in the past from happening again. and that is, to be the first one to strike and to strike without mercy. any show of weakness in today's world of war is a sure recipe for defeat.

so no, tine. today's u.s. military agenda is indeed founded around the mistakes of the past. do it now and apologize later has actually come to pass.

:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:



















:devil:

ys
Sep 22nd, 2003, 06:19 PM
we live in a time when nuclear war is no longer a possibility but a probability...and biochems are stockpiled by the ton.

there is only one way to prevent what happened in the past from happening again. and that is, to be the first one to strike and to strike without mercy. any show of weakness in today's world of war is a sure recipe for defeat.

so no, tine. today's u.s. military agenda is indeed founded around the mistakes of the past. do it now and apologize later has actually come to pass.

That's official version of wrongdoing. The real one is - give your friends and yourself money and apologise letter.

Think about it, US has already spent like 90 billion for the war. And Bush asks for 80 billion more. It makes 170 billion dollars. Even if it is oil, Iraq won't produce that much oil in a decade. And it would make it as every working American has already given $1,500 for this war. Think about that - $1,500 per working soul. More than $2,000 per household. For conquering a little country which, it turns out, hasn't had any WMDs or was sponsoring terrorism. Little country with which we have no clue what to do next. Little country which will give us the permanent supply of filled bodybags for as long as we are there, for no reason. 170 billion. Enough money to prevent any people from dying of hunger worldwide for 20-30 years. Enough money to supply all dying Africa with AIDS medicine.

Volcana
Sep 22nd, 2003, 06:32 PM
this should be a public poll so we can see the three assholes who voted "yes"

Why?

I read the editorial pages of the newspapers
I watch the news on TV.
I talk to my fellow Americans.

I'm AMAZED so few people answered 'yes'. I honestly expected, based on how Americans talk about France in day to day conversation, that the poll wasn't 90% yes.

At least those three people were honest.

kiwifan
Sep 22nd, 2003, 06:37 PM
Yes, poor little peace loving harmless Iraq.

They were just skipping in their gardens and sniffing flowers before Uncle Sam showed up.

Now they will never know again the wonders of the paradise they had with Saddam.

Cariaoke
Sep 22nd, 2003, 06:52 PM
yes, poor them for they didn't ask for help it was forced upon them. now, they kill a random US soldier every hour to show their gratitude of being liberated. WOOHOO!

anyway, did France declare war on the U.S. or am I missing something? if they haven't, how can they be the enemy? France is just the latest scapegoat for the all too patriotic or those wanting to seem patriotic in a long line of imaginary enemies so they can exalt the status of America to the 'we iz da shit' status. before 9/11, we were on the 'nananabooboo, we have a lot of money now bow down and kiss our ass' level. after 9/11 part II: the return of terror, we'll be brought back down a notch only to be lifted again under the guise of protection. the broken-record skips on.

ys
Sep 22nd, 2003, 06:55 PM
Now they will never know again the wonders of the paradise they had with Saddam.

Yeah, there were Iraq under Saddam, now they are getting turned into Afghanistan under Americans with not a hint of order, government, industry or social services. I guess, many would prefer that life under Saddam easily.

kiwifan
Sep 22nd, 2003, 07:06 PM
Uh, hasn't this poll revealed that Americans don't think France is the enemy?

Most Yanks I know had plenty of contempt for France back in the '80s (the rude Frenchman thing, oh and of course the Monty Python stuff was very popular in college "You English K- Nig - Its, I shall taunt you again.".

I don't think anything has really changed.

I visited France a few years ago and the guys were generally rude assholes; the women were okay.

The kids loved all things American, the grown ups are scared that the kids will take that love and ruin their "decorating style" :p

Its a realistic fear since most people given the freedom of choice tend to end up quite Americanized.

This political situation is quite simple.

I think France didn't cooperate with us, again.

No big deal, that's what France does.

Hopefully we can find something interesting to "not cooperate" with France on in the near future and we'll all live happily ever after.

ys
Sep 22nd, 2003, 07:14 PM
Uh, hasn't this poll revealed that Americans don't think France is the enemy?

Most Yanks I know had plenty of contempt for France back in the '80s (the rude Frenchman thing, oh and of course the Monty Python stuff was very popular in college "You English K- Nig - Its, I shall taunt you again.".

I don't think anything has really changed.

I visited France a few years ago and the guys were generally rude assholes; the women were okay.

The kids loved all things American, the grown ups are scared that the kids will take that love and ruin their "decorating style" :p

Its a realistic fear since most people given the freedom of choice tend to end up quite Americanized.

This political situation is quite simple.

I think France didn't cooperate with us, again.

No big deal, that's what France does.

Hopefully we can find something interesting to "not cooperate" with France on in the near future and we'll all live happily ever after.

I quite agree, especially with a French women part. I do think though that the French could easily formulate something of that kind about Americans as well easily. America should thank God that France exists for all variety of reasons.

decemberlove
Sep 22nd, 2003, 09:02 PM
Why?

I read the editorial pages of the newspapers
I watch the news on TV.
I talk to my fellow Americans.

I'm AMAZED so few people answered 'yes'. I honestly expected, based on how Americans talk about France in day to day conversation, that the poll wasn't 90% yes.

At least those three people were honest.

newspapers and the news on tv is obviously biased and paint a false picture. havent you learned that yet?

maybe the americans you know are idiots.

if those that chose yes were so honest, they could've atleast stated their reason as to WHY they feel france is the enemy. for all we know, it could be a non-american or someone just playing around.

its not hard to click a button yes or no... theres nothing too honest about that.

gentenaire
Sep 22nd, 2003, 09:28 PM
kiwifan, if you went to France with that kind of attitude, it's no surprise the French weren't nice to you.

DD, you say the current strategy is to strike first to prevent them to strike you first. If that's true, why attack the weakest countries in the world? Afghanistan, which had been at war for decades, where everything was already destroyed, Iraq which clearly had no army, no weapons, nothing! Congrats USA, you defeated two of the weakest countries in the world! If there was a real threat they could strike, no way would you strike first because then you give them a reason to attack you. Everyone knows North Korea is a much bigger threat, but the US will try to solve that through diplomatic means because you all know that attacking them is suicide.

kiwifan, my grandparents weren't in the resistance. Those who were usually ended up in it because they happened to live in a region where it was big. Quite a few of those people refuse to talk about it, because they're still scared! Even after all those years, there's still some fear the Germans might find out. I personally know at least one man who was sent to the concentration camps for being in the resistance (he ended up in it because he happened to work for the railways and therefore knew a little of what was going on). That's not a fairytale! I highly doubt my grandparents, great aunts and uncles were lying in the letters they wrote during the war (which I got to read). They weren't complaining about being turned out of their house, feeding an entire family on one bread/week, because they'd heard some reports of what happened in Normandy which made their sufferings seem like nothing. I don't think the frantic letter of another relative who finally found out, after 5 months, that my pregnant grandmother (grandfather was in the army) and children survived the bombing of their city.
BTW, my grandfather happened to grow up in a small town called Passendaele. They fled to France during WWI. I don't think I need to tell you there wasn't much to come home to after the war.
And the tears of this great uncle right after 9/11 were real. It was the first time I'd seen an old man cry. He was convinced 9/11 meant the start of WWIII and kept muttering, "not again, not again." War kills! Lots of wars could have been avoided. Unfortunately, the US economy depends strongly on the military industry.

gentenaire
Sep 22nd, 2003, 09:31 PM
Uh, hasn't this poll revealed that Americans don't think France is the enemy?


This thread has revealed that you hate France a lot, that quite a few people have lots of misplaced prejudices about France and Europe in general, probably fed to you by the American propaganda machine.

ys
Sep 22nd, 2003, 09:43 PM
Unfortunately, the US economy depends strongly on the military industry.

Unfortunately, US economy suffers a lot from money wasting on militaries. They will feed a huge army ( I think it is around half of regular US armed forces ) in Iraq that has nothing to do with US security and will be used as the most expensive police force in the world.

We in Russia already had it in Chechnya, same thing. Waging a war under idiotic/patriotic flags, then guerillising the whole area, and turning it into black hole of spending with many government cronies and their companies feeding from that black hole. Same thing.

ys
Sep 22nd, 2003, 09:49 PM
oil. we need their oil (as most western nations do) and were willing to go in with our own agenda regardless of the many french contracts we threw out the window. so we said there were weapons of mass destruction. so what? all that mattered was that the objective was reached.

Which objective? Iraqi oil is still not under control of US with pipeline getting blown everyday. And AFAIK, the gas prices are at all time highs. oh, maybe that was their true objective? After all, the last thing those Texas oil barons need is abundance of oil and low prices on it.

gentenaire
Sep 22nd, 2003, 09:51 PM
bad examples, you say. Then show me some better examples of the strategy you claimed the US uses.

You say it's oil, innocent people are being killed for oil and you think that's right? The people protesting against it are being arrested, put in gaol (so much for free speech, eh), were mocked, laughed at, called stupid. Och, we old fashioned Europeans don't like war, how dare we? How dare we disapprove of the killing of innocent people? How dare we be sick of war after two world wars?

Halardfan
Sep 22nd, 2003, 09:58 PM
I wonder what poeple's takes are on the British/French realtionship, which I think has also been a neagtive one, pretty much forever!

As someone with British and French heritage in my family tree, Ive always felt torn...never understood the animosity...felt I had a stake in both sides. I always found it hard to join in with the broad anti_french feeling that is quite common here, that always has been...

I honestly believe that the problems in this relationship like the American/French one, can not be blamed on only one side...

Im curious...how is the French/Spanish realtionship traditionally, or indeed the Belgian/French one? Loving neigbours or an underlying animosity?

How silly human beings are...even in Britain, while we English usually have a slightly patronising fondness for the Scots and the Welsh, most of them hate our guts! Admit it! You do! Most of Wales and Scotland rejoice if England lose at anything! :D ;)

gentenaire
Sep 22nd, 2003, 09:58 PM
so it comes down to this: the one with the biggest gun wins, you take what you want by using force.

What I don't understand is how come you're still surprised so many people hate the US.

kiwifan
Sep 22nd, 2003, 09:59 PM
This thread has revealed that you hate France a lot, that quite a few people have lots of misplaced prejudices about France and Europe in general, probably fed to you by the American propaganda machine.

I think as usual you just see what you want to see (regarding my "hatred" of France).

I've paid those cowardly weasels several compliments and consider them "family". Sometimes family doesn't see eye to eye; but they are still family. Reread my posts and between the "brutal truths" you'll find plenty of warm sentiment. If I hated them so much why go there, I don't admire their "decorating style" in fact Prague's "decorating style" blew them away. Paris was overpriced and the guys acted like dickheads, I said the kid's were nice and the grown women were pleasant.

Where's the "hate"?

War is hell and everyone involved in any war anywhere has horror stories, making it personal is kind of lame. You get to launch insults at my country but if I offer a little quid quo pro you start dragging out tear stained letters of dead relatives. I respect everyone who fights and/or dies for what they believe it and if you are reading with even minimal comprehension you know that's what my issue is with France. "Fighting Belgians" should feel the same way I do.

That doesn't change the realities of what is happening today.

The reality is that most of Europe is chickenshit scared of terrorist retaliation and they are doing their best to distance themselves from the US.

Behind the scenes your government is quite happy with Uncle Sam right now.

So do I hate France?

Do I hate France Jr.?

Germany took the same political stance as France and isn't getting any flack.

Hmmm, I wonder why?

You got any ideas? :p

decemberlove
Sep 22nd, 2003, 10:03 PM
i dont think anyone is surprised people hate the US. we come across as arrogant and ignorant, and id say the majority of americans are.

but its commonplace to hate on the top dog. thats something we should learn just by being on this board. *cough*

ys
Sep 22nd, 2003, 10:05 PM
IGermany took the same political stance as France and isn't getting any flack.

Hmmm, I wonder why?

You got any ideas? :p

Variety of reasons, perhaps. Traditional anti-French sentiment here, of course. Besides, Germany was much better, reliable ally in Cold War against Soviets, that suffered mist from te Cold War.

And Germany is a country of much smaller political profile - not a permanent SC member, no vetoe right, no nuclear weapons, very little influence in the Third World countries, plus a traditionally understandable, since WW2, anti-war stance.

ys
Sep 22nd, 2003, 10:12 PM
--- be sick all you want. disapprove all you want. protest all you want. dare all that you want. the truth is this. resistance is futile.

No, it is not futile. Any resistance weakens USA, even if just a little, slows its progress, and wins time for future challengers. And in 10-20 years when nuclear superpower China is able to raise their voice, when Russia rebuilds its economy, and then if either of them say NO, US will have to take into account. US has a window of 10-20 years at most for reigning in unipolar world. And the more damage they do now, the more of potential backlash they are going to face then. All modern history is a cycle of prolonged antagonism and short periods of detente. This one will end soon.

ys
Sep 22nd, 2003, 10:13 PM
--- unless you've been to tikrit or baghdad in the past 6 months, you really cannot comment on this.

Have you? If yes, then I am indeed humbled..

gentenaire
Sep 22nd, 2003, 10:15 PM
I've paid those cowardly weasels several compliments and consider them "family".

gee, am I glad I'm not a relative of yours if that's how you treat 'family'.

You get to launch insults at my country but if I offer a little quid quo pro you start dragging out tear stained letters of dead relatives.

I dragged that out as a reply to your 'santa claus' allegations.
Making it personal is what a lot more people should do! Once they realise these are people with relatives dying and not just 'collateral damage', they might think twice about it all.

I respect everyone who fights and/or dies for what they believe it and if you are reading with even minimal comprehension you know that's what my issue is with France. "Fighting Belgians" should feel the same way I do.

I guess that's where we differ. I don't just feel for the people who fight, I feel for everyone who's suffering! Besides, how many of the soldiers fight for what they believe and how many end up as a soldier because they're forced to (in the case of Iraqis) or because they want to pay for their studies. Funny how none of the leaders had relatives in the military! You'd think they'd want to fight most of all for what they believe, right? And why should I admire people who kill to get some oil? How many soldiers realise that's what it's about?


The reality is that most of Europe is chickenshit scared of terrorist retaliation and they are doing their best to distance themselves from the US.

what dreamworld do you live in?

gentenaire
Sep 22nd, 2003, 10:19 PM
--- be sick all you want. disapprove all you want. protest all you want. dare all that you want. the truth is this. resistance is futile.

and I repeat, with this kind of attitude, you're only distancing yourself more from the rest of the world, creating more enemies and are asking for more terrorist attacks.

ys
Sep 22nd, 2003, 10:21 PM
yes, i have. :)

You should have told that first :o . I would never try to argue you then. Tell us more about what you've seen, unless it was a secret mission..:devil:

ys
Sep 22nd, 2003, 10:24 PM
oh, it will end, ys. no doubt. that's the story of our world. however, i'm willing to say that it won't end in my lifetime. there is a stranglehold on energy going on right now and without it the future means nothing. your yukos in russia is a perfect example. however, even yukos is being bought off block by block, regardless of it's 11% portion of oil. those countries who are now taking what energy is left in other parts of the world are in fact using their own for reserve. the future belongs to those who hold energy in reserve.

Wasn't that a head of US Energy ministry, who, while being on his visit to Russia was told by his Russian counterpart that Russia is going to increase the oil production significantly in 10 years, replied that no one will need that much of oil in 10-15 years because most of vehicles will run on hydrogen fuel by then?

Volcana
Sep 22nd, 2003, 10:44 PM
newspapers and the news on tv is obviously biased and paint a false picture. havent you learned that yet?

maybe the americans you know are idiots.

if those that chose yes were so honest, they could've atleast stated their reason as to WHY they feel france is the enemy. for all we know, it could be a non-american or someone just playing around.

its not hard to click a button yes or no... theres nothing too honest about that.

I've never run into a definition of honesty that involves difficulty. Either you're telling the truth or you're truth. Hitting the yes or no button may be simple, and less than revealing, but it's every bit as honest as anything else.

decemberlove
Sep 22nd, 2003, 10:49 PM
not when the thread says specifically AMERICANS. how are you to know its an american?
atleast if they would speak up wed have the slightest clue. this thread is heavy on one side cos the "yes" people wont speak their mind. itd be nice to see a different opinion, dont you agree?

kiwifan
Sep 23rd, 2003, 12:13 AM
yes, ys. however, we're not just talking about vehicles. oil runs much much more than vehicles. as a matter of fact, there's a movement to have regular old h20 become the form of future energy. however, guess what? you still need oil to run the machines the dig up and find h20. there is barely anything in life now that doesn't include the use of crude oil. not just vehicles.

no, yukos is in fact a major oil company in russia with the potential to become a threat to the standing opec crew if and when it is allowed to produce at the rate that it wants to. and don't believe anyone who says that they're not interested in russian oil. everyone in energy is. the only difference is that they're trying to hold back russia's production so that crude energy is extracted from one global point to another. you see, on a mineralogical scale, it's bad earth business to take from the earth at so vast and great areas at the same time. it's all about timing. and russia is being held off right now in order to suit the draining timetable of the current supplier.

:tape: :tape: :tape:

:secret:

:hehehe:

Sam L
Sep 23rd, 2003, 12:23 AM
:tape: :tape: :tape:

:secret:

:hehehe:
Sam L --->:secret:<--- kiwifan

ys
Sep 23rd, 2003, 12:27 AM
no, yukos is in fact a major oil company in russia with the potential to become a threat to the standing opec crew if and when it is allowed to produce at the rate that it wants to. and don't believe anyone who says that they're not interested in russian oil. everyone in energy is. the only difference is that they're trying to hold back russia's production so that crude energy is extracted from one global point to another. you see, on a mineralogical scale, it's bad earth business to take from the earth at so vast and great areas at the same time. it's all about timing. and russia is being held off right now in order to suit the draining timetable of the current supplier.

The problem of any Russian oil supplier is cost. Drilling kilometeres deep in area with extreme polar climate is expensive. Having crews living there on permanent basis is twice expensive, because that climate is generally inadequate for living of contemporary human. So, at 20+ dollars a barrel they are happy and ready to produce more. Get the prices back closer to 10 dollars a barrer of 1997, they will struggle to have the ends met. Arab oil is very cheap, easy to get and inculde very little of human labor cost. In Russian oil industry everything is costly, having crews living there, maintenance and building ( because it is located in the middle of nowhere ) as well as transportation ( thousands of kilometers of pipelines across all huge Russia ).

kiwifan
Sep 23rd, 2003, 12:33 AM
Sam L --->:secret:<--- kiwifan

Nice try buddy, knowledge is power and I'm thinking someone, who I will leave nameless needs to ZIP IT!!!

:topic:

Let's get back to discussing France shall we? :devil:

Sam L
Sep 23rd, 2003, 12:36 AM
Nice try buddy, knowledge is power and I'm thinking someone, who I will leave nameless needs to ZIP IT!!!

:topic:

Let's get back to discussing France shall we? :devil:
I thought you were telling me your secrets? :eek: ;)

ys
Sep 23rd, 2003, 12:38 AM
:topic:

Let's get back to discussing France shall we? :devil:

OK, lets do it.

Wine - yes,
Foie Gras - yes,
Evian - yes,
French footbal - yes,
French rugby - yes,
French women - yes.
French cinema - yes.
French music - yes.
Paris - yes.
French castles - yes.
Chamonix - yes.

Can you come up with a list of negatives?

King Satan
Sep 23rd, 2003, 12:42 AM
French Fries - No (very unhealthy)

Sam L
Sep 23rd, 2003, 12:46 AM
Foie Gras - yes

If you also say "YES" to heart attacks. :eek:

Paneru
Sep 23rd, 2003, 12:56 AM
I love French food, French wine, French people,
and the French coutryside!

I'm an American and if anyone is the enemy
it's this Administration!

They would humiliate and berate France
only to turn around half a year later to come
crawling back for help. Heaven for bid that one
should have an opinion.

ys
Sep 23rd, 2003, 01:03 AM
If you also say "YES" to heart attacks. :eek:

Then the French must have the highest heart attacks rate in the world, given that they are also one of the most smoking nations in the world. Uh, they have one of the lowest rates? Then something must be really wrong. :devil:


And,

French healthcare - yes,
French coffee - yes,
French railroads - yes,
Cannes - yes..



I haven't heard any "no" yet..

Sam L
Sep 23rd, 2003, 01:07 AM
Then the French must have the highest heart attacks rate in the world, given that they are also one of the most smoking nations in the world. Uh, they have one of the lowest rates? Then something must be really wrong. :devil:


If you also breathe French air, drink French water and live totally like a French probably yes, but if you're in another country, it certainly won't add to your life years, that's for sure. Anyway, it's up to you whatever you eat, it was just a mere "for your information". If anything it certainly wouldn't help your gut either. ;)

ys
Sep 23rd, 2003, 01:15 AM
If you also breathe French air, drink French water and live totally like a French probably yes,


I can't breathe French air, but when I am having my foie gras with a glass of good old Yquem, I am ussually in a place where the air is every bit as good as French one - whether it is Vermont or upstate New York or Utah. I drink almost exclusively Evian, so that is also a pass. "Live totally like a French" - that bit I do not understand..


but if you're in another country, it certainly won't add to your life years, that's for sure.


Everything that you truly enjoy won't take anything from you.

If anything it certainly wouldn't help your gut either. ;)

It's just a matter of supplying of right type of alcohol as digestive. And you know, I am not rich enough yet to use foie gras as casual breakfast spread. So it is not an everyday meal for me.:) But if anything, it is not harmful anywhere close to a harm of one single lunch in mcDonalds or Burger King. That's where I was getting a feel as if I swallowed a couple of brickstones.

decemberlove
Sep 23rd, 2003, 01:26 AM
psht

french food aint got nothing on some yummy cuban food

King Satan
Sep 23rd, 2003, 01:31 AM
forget those filthy cubans. mexican food is better.

You might be eating a dog, but that dog sure as hell tastes great! :lick:

decemberlove
Sep 23rd, 2003, 01:34 AM
cuban food is the ultimate food....hands down! omg...it's so rich, but damn, it's so good.... :drool:


see, joe, DD knows where its at!

mexican food is just a cheap, cheap version of the crappiest spanish food out there :p

King Satan
Sep 23rd, 2003, 01:43 AM
see, joe, DD knows where its at!

mexican food is just a cheap, cheap version of the crappiest spanish food out there :p
DD's just trying not to make you feel bad :p

everyone knows you can't beat a great cricket taco! :lick:

ys
Sep 23rd, 2003, 02:20 AM
psht

french food aint got nothing on some yummy cuban food

Then you know really little of French cuisine, dear..:)

Cuban food is nice to have once a month, but other than that, it has quite little of variety.
French cuisine, I can live on it..

kiwifan
Sep 23rd, 2003, 03:05 AM
French sexual attitudes - yes

French "cleanliness" - no

French "decorating style" - no

French smoking - no

French maids - yes

French "care" for their elderly - no

French tennis - other than Testud's boobs, Noah's hair and LeConte's "game", no

French air conditioning - no

French politics - no

French SOCCER - no (Spain is where its at) :devil:

French bread - yes (with American Peanut Butter)

French prices - no (drove me immediately to Prague)

French Open - no (well "yes" when Chris is playing Martina in the finals :p )

I saw some of the ugliest misshappen aggressive whores walking from Gare Du Nord (sp) to Notre Dame, but at least I was eating the best kabob I've ever had before or since. I don't care for French food in general, I like steak or I'll go with the German creed which seems to be that there is nothing that can't be made into sausage (wurst) :p

French teens - yes there was some serious anarchy in the streets (monster truck type stuff on public property) while I was there, won't go into details since of course "I hate the French"; good thing French kids will admit that they love us. I'm sure the :cool: kids in "France Jr." love us too.

I enjoyed returning the merchant's insults once I got over the shock of how friggin rude they were. I was warned by Brits and Germans, but still wasn't truly prepared.

French rugby - yes probably one of the few saving graces for the nation as a whole, their rare oportunity to show some intestinal fortitude :p :p :p and of course they are the dirtiest fuckers on earth when it comes the the "Sport they play in heaven".

French men - no (a serious bunch of scrawny little blow hard pussies)

French women - some Nair and a trip to Brite Smile and of course, most importantly, "the patch" would almost get them up to the level of the babes of Madrid. Several of their number where quite friendly. :devil:

I could go on and on but since I "hate the French", I'll stop here.

PS. Spanish films partially shot in France - yes "That Obscure Object Of Desire" is my favorite Non-English Speaking Film

ys
Sep 23rd, 2003, 03:32 AM
French sexual attitudes - yes

agreed.

French "cleanliness" - no

As opposite to NYC "dirtiness", yes.

French smoking - no

yes. When I am in France, I am a smoker.


French maids - yes


I never tried one, so I can't say.


French tennis - other than Testud's boobs, Noah's hair and LeConte's "game", no


Agreed. I haven't been given a privilege to watch Suzanne Lenglen play
though.

French politics - no


Agreed.


French SOCCER - no (Spain is where its at) :devil:


Where it is about clubs, Spain is indeed miles ahead, but if it is national teams we are talking, Team France is probably my favourite European team, next to the Dutch, perhaps.

French bread - yes (with American Peanut Butter)


But not that soft crap that they call "French bread" in local American supermarkets.


French prices - no (drove me immediately to Prague)


Compared to American prices - yes.

French Open - no (well "yes" when Chris is playing Martina in the finals :p )


Yes. I don't always like the outcome, I hate their crowd, but it is the only Slam on clay, and it is enjoyable.

French rugby - yes probably one of the few saving graces for the nation as a whole, their rare oportunity to show some intestinal fortitude :p :p :p and of course they are the dirtiest fuckers on earth when it comes the the "Sport they play in heaven".

Understandable, especially given that they are one of few teams that regularly gives ABs headache.

To add to this list..

French actresses - yes, yes , yes..
Air France - NO.
French Cars - yes and no. yes, comaprig to American cars. No, comparing to German ones.
French Cheese - yes.

kiwifan
Sep 23rd, 2003, 03:50 AM
Didn't know I was being graded on my "homework assignment" :p

As for French rugby, they are the ultimate spoilers. Given a big stage they can beat anyone and it seems with whatever 15 players they have to spare at the moment. I am still recovering from the last world cup. As you might be able to guess I am a loud cocky KIWI FAN when it comes to rugby.

Georgia looks to be developing a heck of a program; I saw them play 7s in Hong Kong a couple of years ago. Met their administators in the airport and they were cockier than me!!! Good bunch of guys.

Don't know about your preference for French cars and I don't like any cheese other than mozzarella and since it might affect my final grade let me assure you I mean real French bread (I can't spell "bagette" and since I "hate the French" I won't bother to look it up. I know there's supposed to be a "u" in there somewhere. Oh well I'll just give Tine something else to whine about. :p )

Okay, I'm starting to lose my "mean spirit". I'll be back after I get myself mad at "France Jr." again.

ys
Sep 23rd, 2003, 03:58 AM
As for French rugby, they are the ultimate spoilers. Given a big stage they can beat anyone and it seems with whatever 15 players they have to spare at the moment. I am still recovering from the last world cup. As you might be able to guess I am a loud cocky KIWI FAN when it comes to rugby.


From what I've seen so far this season, All Blacks looked untouchable. Australia is in slump. England will go nowhere with their defensive play. My beloved Springboks looked absolutely pathetic. I guess, affirmative action just does not work in rugby. France.. Yes, France can surprise, they always can. Argentine is capable of upsetting some of favourites, but definitely, not ABs.

Georgia looks to be developing a heck of a program; I saw them play 7s in Hong Kong a couple of years ago. Met their administators in the airport and they were cockier than me!!! Good bunch of guys.


They are not there yet, they are of the level similar to my Russian team or that of Romania. -50 at least against any of Top 5 teams.

kiwifan
Sep 23rd, 2003, 04:08 AM
All right, I'm really outta here, gotta get off line so my sweetie can tell me how much she loves me :devil:

It was fun sparring/debating/discussing/etc. with you.

Veronika, I said STOP READING MY POSTS!!!

rand
Sep 23rd, 2003, 08:58 AM
perhaps you should do some in-depth research into agf belgium bank. then maybe we'll have something to talk about. :)
AGF belgium bank is
a)small
b)part of a german(if I remember well, could also be austrian or something....is it allianz?)consortium in which the belgium part has nothing to say....

rand
Sep 23rd, 2003, 09:01 AM
yes, ys. however, we're not just talking about vehicles. oil runs much much more than vehicles. as a matter of fact, there's a movement to have regular old h20 become the form of future energy. however, guess what? you still need oil to run the machines the dig up and find h20. there is barely anything in life now that doesn't include the use of crude oil. not just vehicles.

no, yukos is in fact a major oil company in russia with the potential to become a threat to the standing opec crew if and when it is allowed to produce at the rate that it wants to. and don't believe anyone who says that they're not interested in russian oil. everyone in energy is. the only difference is that they're trying to hold back russia's production so that crude energy is extracted from one global point to another. you see, on a mineralogical scale, it's bad earth business to take from the earth at so vast and great areas at the same time. it's all about timing. and russia is being held off right now in order to suit the draining timetable of the current supplier.
yes but salad oil works almost as good as petrol.....

Halardfan
Sep 23rd, 2003, 09:16 AM
French tennis - other than Testud's boobs, Noah's hair and LeConte's "game", no



Ahem. Now you've gone TOO far! :eek: France gave the world Julie Halard-Decugis, and therefore it tennis is above reproach now, forever and always. Best player ever ever EVER! :)

Does France have its share of Le Pen voting idiots? Indeed. Stupid people, small minded and foolish, too many of them fall for his rubbish.

But in England we have 'Middle England,' people of backward looking thought, people similarly afraid of the world and anything 'foreign', wildly anti-European, anti-progress, Tory voting... ;)

As for America, it too has its 'middle American' values, its stupidity, its ignorance of and towering arrogance towards, the world outside. All neatly summed up in that dimwit president of yours!

Im sure all countires have their share of idiots. Maybe there is a 'Middle Belgium' too. ;)

gentenaire
Sep 23rd, 2003, 09:38 AM
Im sure all countires have their share of idiots. Maybe there is a 'Middle Belgium' too. ;)

without a doubt! Just look at our Big Brother and weep!

Joana
Sep 23rd, 2003, 09:43 AM
Im sure all countires have their share of idiots.

Oh God, you have no idea how it is to live here...

propi
Sep 23rd, 2003, 09:50 AM
PS. Spanish films partially shot in France - yes "That Obscure Object Of Desire" is my favorite Non-English Speaking Film
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

gentenaire
Sep 23rd, 2003, 09:59 AM
Let me fill in my homework;

French "cleanliness" - no
American "cleanliness" - no (what's with putting all the bins on the street?)

French "decorating style" - what is French decorating style?
American decorating style - definitely not!! No way in hell!

French smoking - no
American smoking laws - yes

French "care" for their elderly - no
American care for their elderly - no

French health system - yes
American health system - no

French tennis - yes
American tennis - yes

French air conditioning - no
American air conditioning - no

French politics - no
American politics - no

French FOOTBALL - yes
American football - no

French bread - yes
American bread - no (except to wash my car)

French prices - no
American prices - no

French Open - yes
US Open - yes

French food - yes
American food - no

French wine - yes
American wine - yes

French men - yes and no (in general not tall enough for me ;) )
American men - yes and no

American schools - no
American universities - graduate - yes

French cars - yes
American cars - no



And I must add that Belgian food is excellent! :p

rand
Sep 23rd, 2003, 02:37 PM
you haven't had kabob until you've purchased it off of a street vendor in yemen. lamb kabob at that. and...no misshapen whores there as well. ;)
troof!

rand
Sep 23rd, 2003, 02:43 PM
then i suggest you add a quart of vinaigrette to your oil tank the next time you take in your car for a tune up. perhaps then the differences will show.
off course the technique needs improvement fotr the moment they still need regular oil to START the engine...but a lot of people in belgium and germany already modified their cars (can do it yourself if you know how....) to use mainly salad oil .... if they can run on salad oil , with a bitof research I'm quite sure they can make it start on salad oil too (agreed I don't know nuffing about mechanic.... ;) )

rand
Sep 23rd, 2003, 02:44 PM
:wavey: how are you rand? :) the above is true, for the most part, but common knowledge. keyword = research. :)
I'm fine since I'm just back from holiday, I just got engaged(saturday) and I'm officially owner of an appartment since yesterday :bounce:

rand
Sep 23rd, 2003, 02:45 PM
ahhhhhhhh! a fellow yemenese street vendor kabob lover!!! there are so few of us around. :)
nah...people who love kebab (and there's a lot of us in belgium) who travel a bit are quite unanimous on that point.....although some people prefer the lebanese version...but I don't :) )

rand
Sep 23rd, 2003, 02:46 PM
:wavey: how are you rand? :) the above is true, for the most part, but common knowledge. keyword = research. :)
ok i'll try....

rand
Sep 23rd, 2003, 02:51 PM
awww, rand, that's wonderful! :) i'm happy for you. congratulations!! have you set a date?
yes 21 september 2005 :lol:

rand
Sep 23rd, 2003, 02:53 PM
the lebanese version is so-so and perhaps better when enhanced with a side of tabouleh. the mint though can be a little overpowering.
I completely agree :)
but say which schone blonde do you mean? because we have lots :D
and also....waterzooi is ok but we have much more refined food too you know ;)

rand
Sep 23rd, 2003, 02:56 PM
:lol: :smash: :lol:
the problem is that you need to plan a lot in advance because the better party-places are booked years in advance ;)

rand
Sep 23rd, 2003, 02:59 PM
oh, no. the more rustic foods are the best especially when they're home made. i think the schone blonde is made with some kind of belgian beer (at least that's what i was told) and what i had was awesome! in places like belgium (and france) i think the more provincial cuisines are the best.
yes but in the more rustic food I prefer boereworst(which is basically sausage, but quite high quality), baked in duvel (probably the best beer in the world) with stoemp (which is some kind of mashed potatoes with mashed vegetables in it, for me mostly broccoli....)
easy to make, but excellent if you know how....

rand
Sep 23rd, 2003, 03:09 PM
sounds like you can teach us all a thing or two rand..:) this thread changing into a food thread was a great thing! :)
there's to much hate and anger on this board...when you're thinking about food you get happy and everyone likes everybody else :lol:
I love cooking :)

rand
Sep 23rd, 2003, 03:17 PM
lol..i couldn't agree more. i say everyone with an awesome moussaka recipe....SHARE! :)
oops sorry but i don't eat moussaka :o (don't care much for some of the vegetables in it :) )

rand
Sep 23rd, 2003, 03:24 PM
ugh! lol...there needs to be an eggplant revival!
not for me no :lol:
I can make a very good bearnaise for you if you want though :lol:
I have a nice recipe with asparagus too... (with truffles :drool: )

gentenaire
Sep 23rd, 2003, 03:35 PM
I must disagree on your food choices, Rand. I've always preferred the restaurants where the chef has let his creativity run free. I love it when they mix styles, start off with a simple French base, but give it an Eastern twist, or South European, ...When I go to a restaurant, I want to eat food that I can't make myself, or that I simply wouldn't have thought of myself.

As for yemenese kebab, I'm not a kebab lover I'm afraid and I've never been to Yemen. My parents have (after three tries!), but I doubt they had a kebab there ;)

rand
Sep 23rd, 2003, 03:41 PM
I must disagree on your food choices, Rand. I've always preferred the restaurants where the chef has let his creativity run free. I love it when they mix styles, start off with a simple French base, but give it an Eastern twist, or South European, ...When I go to a restaurant, I want to eat food that I can't make myself, or that I simply wouldn't have thought of myself.

As for yemenese kebab, I'm not a kebab lover I'm afraid and I've never been to Yemen. My parents have (after three tries!), but I doubt they had a kebab there ;)
I didn't say those were my only choices....
I like many many different things....
for example a live above a very good restaurant which makes food which is very original, very sophisticated based on italian cooking...., really a mx between french and italian cuisine....
I also make mix-recipes myself...but then it's mostly french/asian
I also love more sophisticated restaurants: in ghent carte blanche
in brussels SAS Radisson sea grill/vismet/la quincaillerie
andsoforth.....
it was just an example :)

gentenaire
Sep 23rd, 2003, 03:55 PM
as long as it's real truffles and not just truffle oil rand! lol...no cook tricks! :)

Your dinners clearly aren't cheap! LOL

rand
Sep 23rd, 2003, 03:57 PM
as long as it's real truffles and not just truffle oil rand! lol...no cook tricks! :)
what do you take me for, off course real truffles! :)
I like working with good ingredients.... :)
I'm also very good with euhm how do you call it...things from thze inside of the animals....like brains,liver, kidneys and stuff....?
for example I make excellent fried brains with garlic and butter :drool:
and kidney's with a sauce based on porto-wine and morilles(basically expensive mushrooms)
g-d I love food :)

rand
Sep 23rd, 2003, 03:58 PM
Your dinners clearly aren't cheap! LOL
you have to make choices....I never like compromise...or you make cheap food (which can be delicious)
or you make it sophisticated...but never try cheap tricks to make it sophisticated because it never works.....
(which doesn't mean there'd no intermediary class, butI think you know what I mean :) )

gentenaire
Sep 23rd, 2003, 04:07 PM
yet you claim not to use your kitchen much, Rand ;)

rand
Sep 23rd, 2003, 04:10 PM
yet you claim not to use your kitchen much, Rand ;)
it's not what I said :)
I said it didn't matter for me to get a very nice one...I've got very good pans and pots, knives and so on....
but I haven't too much space (not in my curreznt appartment either) and I've learned to cook well in any kitchen in which I have the right material, which I will have, I don't need an expensive one...
that doesn't mean I don't cook much :)

rand
Sep 23rd, 2003, 04:13 PM
rand? i need to come visit you. :p
you'll be welcome :) if you eat kosher I can be of quite a good assistance too :)

fifiricci
Sep 23rd, 2003, 07:09 PM
The whole fucking world is the enemy of the united states at the moment.

Our yankee friends across the pond need to get a grip soon or they are going to make all our lives a misery. The whole world is now going to be made to pay for September 11 and it is really depressing that that twat Bush can dupe millions of americans into believing that the usa can "beat" terrorism by indiscriminately invading countries on scant evidence.

I am ashamed of the UK joining forces with the USA on Iraq and much prefer these days to be labelled a European rather than British.

kiwifan
Sep 23rd, 2003, 07:24 PM
Hey fifiricci, either bash France, talk about food or start a new thread.

Thanks for adding nothing to the topics at hand. :p

King Satan
Sep 23rd, 2003, 07:33 PM
Hey fifiricci, either bash France, talk about food or start a new thread.

Thanks for adding nothing to the topics at hand. :p
lol! you tell'em kiwi! :yeah:

King Satan
Sep 23rd, 2003, 08:08 PM
....and a hearty 'eat shit' to you too, fifiricci! :explode:

(just when i was enjoying the food talk too... )
APOLOGISE!! i should wash your mouth out with soap! :fiery:

Ballbuster
Sep 23rd, 2003, 09:14 PM
France is a pansy of a country. She is jealous of the United States. She stinks. She's like a limp wristed sissy, with no bite. I hate her. No France is the enemy of France. Look at what she did to all of her elderly dying citizen. She let them die....to conserve energy.

gentenaire
Sep 23rd, 2003, 09:19 PM
and the Americans let their houses be blown away by a bit of wind to save on materials :rolleyes:

ys
Sep 23rd, 2003, 09:21 PM
and the Americans let their houses be blown away by a bit of wind to save on materials :rolleyes:

That's economy. Average savings on materials exceed the average loss from winds. It's cheaper for economy to insure losses in this case than making all houses 10% more expensive. As simple as that.

gentenaire
Sep 23rd, 2003, 09:26 PM
ys, I was being ironic. The US shouldn't change its construction style (except for adding more insulation). I just wanted to point out that extreme circumstances can lead to extreme results. And what is considered extreme is different depending on the region.

I've said it many times before, houses here in the North are designed that get as much sun IN as possible. Large glass surfaces facing South, etc. Loft rooms are common, black roof tiles are very common too (you won't see that in regions with a hot climate). Construction styles depend on the climate, it's as simple as that. And when something happens that's so different from the usual patterns, it's normal that you're not really prepared.

I expect a serious dip in deaths in France in the couple of months. The people who would have died in these months died a bit sooner than expected.

Ballbuster
Sep 23rd, 2003, 09:30 PM
They died because they couldn't afford air conditioners because your GOVERNMENT raised tarriffs on energy.

Tell the damn truth.

gentenaire
Sep 23rd, 2003, 09:32 PM
Strangely enough, in Belgium, there were fewer deaths during the heatwave than in other years! I guess we weren't the only ones who were concerned about our grandfather and paid special attention ;)

Still, it did get a lot hotter in France and you get a lot of lonely elderly, with no relatives in the big cities. It was in the middle of summer, when I'm on a holiday I usually don't check the weather reports at home, nor do I check if my grandfather is doing okay.

gentenaire
Sep 23rd, 2003, 09:37 PM
They died because they couldn't afford air conditioners because your GOVERNMENT raised tarriffs on energy.

Tell the damn truth.


LMAO! This has got to be some of the biggest rubbish I've ever heard!!

A) you can't install AC in a day! Our windows open in a different way, so you can't put an AC in there. ACs here are always in two elements, one you hang on the wall, another outside. There must be room for it.

B) ACs were sold out almost immediately, as were fans. No one expected this kind of heat.

C) We normally shouldn't need AC in our climate, it really is a waste of energy. Only when we have temperatures like that on a common basis, we could start thinking about AC or better....different design of homes.
So I'm all for installing AC in homes for the elderly, but nowhere else. It's not needed. People in climates that are a lot hotter than the US manage just fine without AC! But the houses have a different design. Actually, when it comes to cooling, Northern European houses are better than American (we just need to install outdoor sun screens).

gentenaire
Sep 23rd, 2003, 09:43 PM
all joking, sarcasm and nitpicking aside....this is soooooo damned sad. imagine working all your life just so you can grow old and expire in atrocious heat because your government made it impossible for you to pay. so, so sad.....

all things considered, the life expentancy is still two years higher for the French than it is for the Americans. So maybe it's better to grow old in France after all!

And when it comes to not being able to pay for care, I don't think Americans should be pointing the finger at other countries. It's still much more affordable in France than it is in the US.

Besides, in an earlier discussion, someone mentioned that a lot of Americans die as well when it gets hot! And you're supposed to be used to it! Maybe because you get a higher death rate every summer, it's considered normal, just the same as in previous years.

ys
Sep 23rd, 2003, 10:05 PM
all things considered, the life expentancy is still two years higher for the French than it is for the Americans. So maybe it's better to grow old in France after all!

There are a lot of different factors. If you take out the fact that Americans drive much more than The French, and die from that much more often, that there is the whole big percentage of Americans practicing systematic obesity ( meaning, that if youa re not one of them, your life expectancy goes significantly higher than average ), I'd say the life expectancy related to death from _NATURAL_ causes for _ME_ would be higher in USA than in France.

rand
Sep 24th, 2003, 07:03 AM
how dare they not keep to the proper timetable! ;)

in all seriousness, though...i think the food discussion was fun. :p
me too :)
Actually I got inspired yesterday and took my traditional jewish cook-book....found a traditional moroccan jewish recipe based on chicken, couscous and a marinade of a lot of very good spices....was excellent, I also baked latkes :lol: (I know they don't go together but I just felt like it :lol: ) and I also made gefillte fish for today :)

gentenaire
Sep 24th, 2003, 07:36 AM
There are a lot of different factors. If you take out the fact that Americans drive much more than The French, and die from that much more often, that there is the whole big percentage of Americans practicing systematic obesity ( meaning, that if youa re not one of them, your life expectancy goes significantly higher than average ), I'd say the life expectancy related to death from _NATURAL_ causes for _ME_ would be higher in USA than in France.

Do more Americans die in traffic than French? I don't know the exact figures, I've always thought that in general more Europeans die in traffic than Americans (/ capita obviously) because we drive a lot faster, our roads aren't as wide, etc.

You're right about the obesity, but maybe those figures compensate the smoking figures for the French.

But you're right, there are different factors to consider. Just like you have to consider different factors when talking about the deaths in France due to the heat.

I think it's unfair that it's deemed okay in this thread to post narrowminded, baseless accusations against the French, without taking the different aspects into consideration, yet dare criticize the US and you're bombarded with personal attacks.

fifiricci
Sep 24th, 2003, 09:22 AM
France is a pansy of a country. She is jealous of the United States. She stinks. She's like a limp wristed sissy, with no bite. I hate her. No France is the enemy of France. Look at what she did to all of her elderly dying citizen. She let them die....to conserve energy.

Well I think this xenophobic twat of a post justifies mine earlier that was so quickly attacked! Coming down (yet again) to your level, i might have to say "why should the French should be jealous of the USA which is a country full of fat, fatheaded, frightened, trigger happy ignoramuses?" :lol:

gentenaire
Sep 24th, 2003, 10:04 AM
Well I think this xenophobic twat of a post justifies mine earlier that was so quickly attacked!

agreed!

Colin B
Sep 24th, 2003, 10:40 AM
If you take out the fact that Americans drive much more than The French, and die from that much more often,

Road traffic deaths per 100,000 population - 2002:



USA 15.2
France 13.6
Belgium 14.4
UK 6.0


Uk figure is low because
a) Seatbelts are compulsory (the figure halved overnight when this was made law)
b) We drive on the left, which for some reason seems to be safer.

rand
Sep 24th, 2003, 10:44 AM
sea&tbelts are complusary everywhere, no?

gentenaire
Sep 24th, 2003, 10:56 AM
I think the reason why it's so high for Belgium is that we have a denser road network and a lot of crossroads (the UK has roundabouts everywhere). Also, cycling is big, yet our bikeways aren't as neat as those in the Netherlands. Too many cyclists (often children) get killed.
We also get lots of trucks on our highways, trucks that are simply passing through, because we happen to be situated in the centre of Europe. A lot of fatal accidents involve trucks.

Colin B
Sep 24th, 2003, 10:59 AM
sea&tbelts are complusary everywhere, no?
AFAIK (someone's bound to correct me if I'm wrong) seatbelts are not compulsory in America. Something to do with individual rights, constitution, blah.
Because of this they have much larger airbags (to absorb the weight of the whole person, not just the head) resulting in small children being killed by the 'punch' from the airbag!

Colin B
Sep 24th, 2003, 11:04 AM
A lot of fatal accidents involve trucks.
Tine, who the hell is Norbert Dentresangle(sp) and why does he have so many lorries? They are everywhere I go in Europe!

Here's some more figures:

Netherlands 6.8
Germany 9.1
Italy 11.1
Denmark 9.3
Norway 7.6
Sweden 6.7
Australia 9.5
Switzerland 8.3
Luxemburg 17.5! (that must be half the population! ;) )

Is that everyone on here?

gentenaire
Sep 24th, 2003, 11:11 AM
You know what happened here when seatbelts became compulsory? The number of cyclists getting killed increased a lot! People feel safer in their cars and therefore drive more recklessly. It's not just the seatbelts. Cars these days have so many safety features to protect the people in the car, that more cyclists and pedestrians get killed. Cars should give people a feeling of unsafety without being unsafe, maybe then they'll drive more carefully.

As for the US, I do believe it's compulsory in some places. When I was in Boston, the husband of the person I was staying with refused to wear his seatbelt and was commenting on the signs on the side of the road saying that it was compulsory. The police actually stops cars when the people aren't wearing their seatbelts. He was whining about it, because he doesn't like being told what to do. I decided not to start explaining why wearing a seatbelt is important ;)
The thing is, those trucks they love to drive are as unsafe as can possible be! In a head on collision, the people in the truck must hope they've run into a normal car, not another truck. Those trucks are too stiff, they don't take on the impact, the people inside get the full effect of the impact. The front of normal cars will give way, the car takes on the impact, not the people.

gentenaire
Sep 24th, 2003, 11:21 AM
I have no idea, Colin ;) I'm afraid I haven't even seen those myself, or simply haven't paid attention to it.

Belgium should look at the Netherlands, follow their example, because their situation is somewhat similar (even though I've been told Belgium has a lot more cross roads!), dense population, lots of cyclists, etc.

Josh
Sep 24th, 2003, 12:04 PM
Belgium is very different from the Netherlands actually. Urban planning is something we didn't know in Belgium until recently. Just look at the usage of our surface, houses are built along the busiest roads and it's almost impossible to adapt the infrastructure (more paths for cyclists, roundabouts, etc...) because the costs are simply too high because of expropriations. Belgium simply does not have the same intelligent structural planning as the Netherlands, we just built our houses wherever it was possible. :lol:

Oh and for those people that keep criticising France for how it handled the recent heat wave...you're right, not enough was done to prevent people, mostly elderly, from dying. But don't forget about the 1995 Chicago heat wave. Over a period of 5 days (compared to a month in France), 525 people, mostly elderly, died. So what is this about Chicago...no airco because they are saving on energy as wll over there?

rand
Sep 24th, 2003, 12:09 PM
Belgium is very different from the Netherlands actually. Urban planning is something we didn't know in Belgium until recently. Just look at the usage of our surface, houses are built along the busiest roads and it's almost impossible to adapt the infrastructure (more paths for cyclists, roundabouts, etc...) because the costs are simply too high because of expropriations. Belgium simply does not have the same intelligent structural planning as the Netherlands, we just built our houses wherever it was possible. :lol:

Oh and for those people that keep criticising France for how it handled the recent heat wave...you're right, not enough was done to prevent people, mostly elderly, from dying. But don't forget about the 1995 Chicago heat wave. Over a period of 5 days (compared to a month in France), 525 people, mostly elderly, died. So what is this about Chicago...no airco because they are saving on energy as wll over there?
yes but then again, that's what makes the cities in belgium much more charming than the dutch ones....more personality :)

Josh
Sep 24th, 2003, 12:11 PM
yes but then again, that's what makes the cities in belgium much more charming than the dutch ones....more personality :)

Absolutely correct!

Dutch cities are quite boring, especially the entire neighbourhoods built in the same style. :eek:

gentenaire
Sep 24th, 2003, 12:12 PM
yes but then again, that's what makes the cities in belgium much more charming than the dutch ones....more personality :)

Our cities are nicer (Brussels excepted), but those typical roads connecting the cities are horrible!! You know which ones I'm talking about, the ones with the petrol stations, all sorts of shops, houses in between, then some smaller factories, etc. We've got lots of those kind of roads and I would never want to live on one of them.

Josh, I already mentioned the Chicago heatwave, but they choose to ignore that bit.

Josh
Sep 24th, 2003, 12:14 PM
Our cities are nicer (Brussels excepted), but those typical roads connecting the cities are horrible!! You know which ones I'm talking about, the ones with the petrol stations, all sorts of shops, houses in between, then some smaller factories, etc. We've got lots of those kind of roads and I would never want to live on one of them.

Josh, I already mentioned the Chicago heatwave, but they choose to ignore that bit.

Oh Tine, you have bad taste....Brussels is a gem! :p

gentenaire
Sep 24th, 2003, 12:16 PM
Dutch cities are quite boring, especially the entire neighbourhoods built in the same style. :eek:

I've been told the Dutch actually like that. The reaction I've had from Dutch people about the typical Belgian ideal to have a house built to your own taste is that they can't imagine buying a house they haven't seen! They have to see the house first, walk around in it, then they'll think about taking it.

Another big difference: Dutch houses often have large windows facing the street, even on the street level. Of course you're not supposed to stare inside, but still. It's a form of social control. People won't misbehave when there's a slight chance others might see. A lot of the houses that you see in the Netherlands would never be sold here, no one would want it. Belgians want privacy, no large windows you can look into, the shutters go down in the evening...

Josh
Sep 24th, 2003, 12:18 PM
I've been told the Dutch actually like that. The reaction I've had from Dutch people about the typical Belgian ideal to have a house built to your own taste is that they can't imagine buying a house they haven't seen! They have to see the house first, walk around in it, then they'll think about taking it.

Another big difference: Dutch houses often have large windows facing the street, even on the street level. Of course you're not supposed to stare inside, but still. It's a form of social control. People won't misbehave when there's a slight chance others might see. A lot of the houses that you see in the Netherlands would never be sold here, no one would want it. Belgians want privacy, no large windows you can look into, the shutters go down in the evening...

It's a Calvinist thing I'm telling ya. They like to peek inside eachother's houses and know what everyone else is doing at all times. ;)

gentenaire
Sep 24th, 2003, 12:20 PM
Oh Tine, you have bad taste....Brussels is a gem! :p

Brussels is UGLY and DIRTY! Last time I was there with foreigners I was actually embarassed! Beautiful old buildings next to the most horrific buildings, men using the streets as public toilets, homeless people everywhere. Somehow it looks a lot nicer at night, but during the day it's SAD SAD SAD! It's so incredibly dirty, they really ought to clean up the place, they should tear down half of the buildings and renovate the other half. The foreigners were staying in a brand new nice hostel, right behind that concrete block that is the Inno (Brussels is full of these awful concrete buildings), next to the hostel was an open area quite a few people used to dump their rubbish.

Belgium is beautiful, but we do have an ugly capital.

gentenaire
Sep 24th, 2003, 12:22 PM
It's a Calvinist thing I'm telling ya. They like to peek inside eachother's houses and know what everyone else is doing at all times. ;)

It's certainly a Calvinist thing!

I find it fascinating to see how religion has influenced these kind of things, indirectly. We may not be very religious now, our culture, our tastes, behaviour, etc. is still influenced by what used to be the dominant religion.

rand
Sep 24th, 2003, 12:29 PM
Oh Tine, you have bad taste....Brussels is a gem! :p
Brussels is indeed a gem...but you need time to appreciate it...I used to hate brussels :)

Josh
Sep 24th, 2003, 12:30 PM
Brussels is UGLY and DIRTY! Last time I was there with foreigners I was actually embarassed! Beautiful old buildings next to the most horrific buildings, men using the streets as public toilets, homeless people everywhere. Somehow it looks a lot nicer at night, but during the day it's SAD SAD SAD! It's so incredibly dirty, they really ought to clean up the place, they should tear down half of the buildings and renovate the other half. The foreigners were staying in a brand new nice hostel, right behind that concrete block that is the Inno (Brussels is full of these awful concrete buildings), next to the hostel was an open area quite a few people used to dump their rubbish.

Belgium is beautiful, but we do have an ugly capital.

Well, Antwerp is even dirtier and has the same amount of ugly buildings 'polluting' the centre.
Recently the city has invested a lot in renovating entire neighbourhoods and old houses. But the problem is that it's difficult to act against those big firms who buy entire neighbourhoods, let them rot and then demolish them to build new, modern mastodonts like the European Parliament for which an entire neighbourhood had to be demolished.
Still, I think Brussels is a very beautiful city with a lot to offer. Most foreigners who came to live in Brussels fell in love with the city and its enormous cultural supply.

Josh
Sep 24th, 2003, 12:32 PM
Brussels is indeed a gem...but you need time to appreciate it...I used to hate brussels :)

See....that's what I hear a lot. You need time to appreciate and discover the city. It's often commuters, people who work but don't live in the city, that always criticise the city, simply because they just see the train station and their office building and some of the more touristic sides of the capital.

This said...I love Brussels...and Antwerp too! :bounce:

rand
Sep 24th, 2003, 12:36 PM
See....that's what I hear a lot. You need time to appreciate and discover the city. It's often commuters, people who work but don't live in the city, that always criticise the city, simply because they just see the train station and their office building and some of the more touristic sides of the capital.

This said...I love Brussels...and Antwerp too! :bounce:
I'm from antwerp and I live in brussels, so :bounce:

Josh
Sep 24th, 2003, 12:38 PM
I'm from antwerp and I live in brussels, so :bounce:

Yay for you! So you left 't Stad for the real city uh? ;)
Do you live in the centre?

BTW Tine, to which restaurant did you take your foreign friends a few weeks ago? I remember you asked for some ideas on the board.

rand
Sep 24th, 2003, 12:43 PM
I live in "schildknaapsstraat/rue de l'ecuyer" which is at the muntplein :)
I live above a quite fantastic restaurant: ricotta & parmesan

gentenaire
Sep 24th, 2003, 12:47 PM
We went to some Thai place near the beurs.

Josh
Sep 24th, 2003, 12:49 PM
Well that's right in the centre! And there's a lot of nice, little restaurants in that area and not too expensive either.

Josh
Sep 24th, 2003, 12:50 PM
We went to some Thai place near the beurs.

I'm not very fond of Thai food. :o
Was it near the St Gorikshallen? That's pretty much China/Asia Town in Brussels. ;)

rand
Sep 24th, 2003, 12:51 PM
We went to some Thai place near the beurs.
I wouldn't have doen that...was it good?

gentenaire
Sep 24th, 2003, 12:54 PM
I'm not very fond of Thai food. :o
Was it near the St Gorikshallen? That's pretty much China/Asia Town in Brussels. ;)

yup, that's where you'd advised me to go, remember?

Josh
Sep 24th, 2003, 12:55 PM
Yes, but I said Vietnamese, not Thai. :p

rand
Sep 24th, 2003, 12:58 PM
Yes, but I said Vietnamese, not Thai. :p
vietnamese is much better :)
not far from the beurs you can go to for example da kao in the dansaertstraat which is ugly, but very good, and very cheap :)

gentenaire
Sep 24th, 2003, 01:03 PM
I didn't see any Vietnamese restaurants.

fifiricci
Sep 24th, 2003, 01:09 PM
Road traffic deaths per 100,000 population - 2002:



USA 15.2
France 13.6
Belgium 14.4
UK 6.0


Uk figure is low because
a) Seatbelts are compulsory (the figure halved overnight when this was made law)
b) We drive on the left, which for some reason seems to be safer.

Well if it is true that driving on the left is safer, those of our american friends who are anti french (and that looks like being one hell of a big number) now have yet another tool to bash the French with, cos it was Napoleon who introduced driving on the right. Originally everyone drove on the left, but because of his arm situation he couldnt defend himself with his one good arm if he rode on the left, so he made everyone change and drive on the right!!

:lol:

Josh
Sep 24th, 2003, 01:12 PM
Most of them are pretty small so you walk by easily without noticing them. lol
I should have given you more precise information but I never remember names of restaurants and sometimes I even forget streetnames....:o

Josh
Sep 24th, 2003, 01:21 PM
We've kinda derailed this topic really....:o

So....

AUX ARMES CITOYEN! :devil: :armed: ;)

gentenaire
Sep 24th, 2003, 01:27 PM
The Dutch have more reason to bash Napoleon! Because of him, they're now stuck with those silly names such Naaktgeboren (Bornnaked), Griep (Flue), Rothuyzen (Rottenhouses), etc.

Josh
Sep 24th, 2003, 01:40 PM
The Dutch have more reason to bash Napoleon! Because of him, they're now stuck with those silly names such Naaktgeboren (Bornnaked), Griep (Flue), Rothuyzen (Rottenhouses), etc.

I like those names...they are so uhm....colourful! :lol:

ys
Sep 24th, 2003, 02:41 PM
Using seatbelts is mandatory for both driver and front sitting passenger in most of states of US.

The best thing about Brussels is Brussels Sprouts.

Halardfan
Sep 24th, 2003, 02:43 PM
I think its ironic that French trains coming through the tunnel arrive in London at Waterloo station!

A typically warm weclome to our French guests! :D ;)

rand
Sep 24th, 2003, 02:50 PM
I think its ironic that French trains coming through the tunnel arrive in London at Waterloo station!

A typically warm weclome to our French guests! :D ;)
is it? koewl! it means that when I come to london in two weeks I'll be already close to the place where the gig takes place (comingf from belgium, but I suppose it's the same station :) )

Josh
Sep 24th, 2003, 02:52 PM
is it? koewl! it means that when I come to london in two weeks I'll be already close to the place where the gig takes place (comingf from belgium, but I suppose it's the same station :) )

Yup, same station.

Colin B
Sep 24th, 2003, 02:56 PM
Well if it is true that driving on the left is safer, those of our american friends who are anti french (and that looks like being one hell of a big number) now have yet another tool to bash the French with, cos it was Napoleon who introduced driving on the right. Originally everyone drove on the left, but because of his arm situation he couldnt defend himself with his one good arm if he rode on the left, so he made everyone change and drive on the right!!Thanks, I didn't know that.
Napoleon's arch-nemesis, Lord Nelson only had one of just about everything you're supposed to have two of but nothing changed here. Then again, he couldn't make himself Emperor.

I did know that everyone once drove on the left because you always mount a horse on it's left side and this is not advisable in the middle of the road!

rand
Sep 24th, 2003, 02:57 PM
Yup, same station.
:banana:
btw no one going to the chris and cosy/current 93 gig in london the 9'th of october? :D

gentenaire
Sep 24th, 2003, 04:16 PM
I did know that everyone once drove on the left because you always mount a horse on it's left side and this is not advisable in the middle of the road!

I thought it had to do with being able to shoot (holding gun in right hand) while sitting on top of a carriage. If you ride on the left, the enemies coming from the other side come to the righthand side, so it's easy to kill 'm ;)

For the same reason spiral stairs in old castles, towers, etc. run clockwise if you up (counter clockwise when walking down), the opposite of a screw. That way, you can defend yourself from attackers coming up the stairs by shooting at them, using your right hand.

decemberlove
Sep 24th, 2003, 07:43 PM
AFAIK (someone's bound to correct me if I'm wrong) seatbelts are not compulsory in America. Something to do with individual rights, constitution, blah.
Because of this they have much larger airbags (to absorb the weight of the whole person, not just the head) resulting in small children being killed by the 'punch' from the airbag!

almost all the states, especially the north and west states, require that all passengers wear seatbelts. we dont have individual rights anymore... they are slowly being taken away.

im pretty sure its actually illegal to put a child under the age of 10 in the front seat of a vehicle if theres an airbag. too easy for them to suffocate.

decemberlove
Sep 24th, 2003, 07:47 PM
americans drive on the right just to be different. just like we dont use the metric system and weve shortened some english words. we just like pissing everyone else... it hits us in the cold heart ;) :p

seriously though, im guessing the reason our accidents are high is cos so many people drive... we have a HORRIBLE public transportation sytem. people commute sometimes four hours to work, talking on the celly, smoking, and eating on the way there. it can be rather distracting. plus, yknow americans havea short attention span :)

ys
Sep 24th, 2003, 08:18 PM
we have a HORRIBLE public transportation sytem.

It is not horrible, it is simply non-existing. But that's American way, if something does not make money, meaning - doesn't make economical sense, it doesn't have to exist. I regret the absence of the system, but I understand why..

ys
Sep 24th, 2003, 08:18 PM
And thanks God that at least they measure time in the same units.

kiwifan
Sep 24th, 2003, 09:23 PM
And thanks God that at least they measure time in the same units.


:fiery: :mad: Minutes Suck :mad: :fiery:

Completely unnecessary!!!

:fiery: :mad: Months Suck Too :mad: :fiery:

Hours and Years Rock!!! :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

Veronika STOP READING!!! ;)

rand
Sep 25th, 2003, 07:00 AM
americans drive on the right just to be different. just like we dont use the metric system and weve shortened some english words. we just like pissing everyone else... it hits us in the cold heart ;) :p

seriously though, im guessing the reason our accidents are high is cos so many people drive... we have a HORRIBLE public transportation sytem. people commute sometimes four hours to work, talking on the celly, smoking, and eating on the way there. it can be rather distracting. plus, yknow americans havea short attention span :)
ah well....look...in belgium (and especially in brussels...)we DO have very good public transports, but still most people prefer taking the car.....because it's more comfortable (not necessarily true, especially if it's for going from brussels to ghent for example.....),faster (certainly not true if you get traffic jam for 5/10 kms.....)
,or simply because you don't want to be next to someone who's smelling bad :lol:

gentenaire
Sep 25th, 2003, 10:04 AM
There are a lot of different factors. If you take out the fact that Americans drive much more than The French, and die from that much more often, that there is the whole big percentage of Americans practicing systematic obesity ( meaning, that if youa re not one of them, your life expectancy goes significantly higher than average ), I'd say the life expectancy related to death from _NATURAL_ causes for _ME_ would be higher in USA than in France.

Sorry to bring this up again. There's an article on the BBC website today about a research into cancer survival rates. Belgium's not in the list, so I don't know how we fare, but France and Austria have the best rates. The chances of surviving cancer in France are a lot higher than in the UK. It's well known that UK hospitals aren't good. But the Brits are aware of the problem and are changing, I'm sure they'll catch up in the end.

I wonder what the figures are for the US. The rates were only given for a few European countries.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3136874.stm

Colin B
Sep 25th, 2003, 10:37 AM
It's well known that UK hospitals aren't good.

Actually many of the hospitals are very good (Great Ormond Street childrens hospital, for instance, is world renowned), the problem is getting to the top of the waiting list to get into one!

gentenaire
Sep 25th, 2003, 10:42 AM
I was talking about the overall system, Colin, not the doctors. I'm convinced UK doctors are well qualified, well educated, they just lack the resources to support them. And because of it, health care in general in the UK has a pretty bad name abroad.

Colin B
Sep 25th, 2003, 11:05 AM
Yes, I know what you meant, Tine. The NHS is very under-resourced. My wife works in the maternity department (she's a midwife) of a large, modern, well equiped hospital that should provide excellent care. The problem is, they can't run at full efficiency with a full staff because their annual budget would be used up in about nine months.
Staff morale is therefore very low, so the best staff leave.........and so it goes on.
You're right, Britain is not the best place to get sick just now.

Instant
Sep 25th, 2003, 12:15 PM
Professor Gallo
Ronald Reagan

Both of them are guily of the death of 25000 plus people in 2 years.

In the end they will be guilty of the death of over 6 billion people world wide.

France had the answer, Gallo's ego would not accept it, Reagan's religious beliefs would not allow it.

May Reagan have Alchizmers disease now, it may help him forget the awful blood he has on his hands. We will not.

Nor will every Gay man outside of America forget how we were persecuted by Reagan and Gallo and how the two of them allowed a disease to run rampant, because they thought it would only affect gay people.

Ballbuster
Sep 25th, 2003, 04:30 PM
Well I think this xenophobic twat of a post justifies mine earlier that was so quickly attacked! Coming down (yet again) to your level, i might have to say "why should the French should be jealous of the USA which is a country full of fat, fatheaded, frightened, trigger happy ignoramuses?" :lol:


We Rule this Planet, and we live abundantly.

kiwifan
Sep 26th, 2003, 07:46 PM
Just food for thought from the Daily Telegraph today:

Baghdad poll finds the war was worth it
By Robin Gedye, Foreign Affairs Writer
(Filed: 26/09/2003)


Baghdad residents have a surprisingly positive view poll of Saddam Hussein's overthrow, with 62 per cent convinced that it was worth the problems they now suffer, according to a Gallup poll.

Two thirds, or 67 per cent, of those polled believe Iraq will be in better condition after five years than it was before the American-led invasion. Only eight per cent believe it will be worse.

Nearly half - 47 per cent - feel the country is worse off now than it was before the invasion. A third believe it is already in better shape.

The United States and Britain come out of the survey of 1,178 Baghdad residents in a poor light.

While 55 per cent of residents polled had a positive view of France, a staunch opponent of the war which has yet to contribute to Iraq's reconstruction, 44 per cent saw America negatively and 48 per cent held a similar view of Britain.

Cheers - :cool:

gentenaire
Sep 26th, 2003, 07:54 PM
a) This war was about WMD, at least that's what Bush claims. No need to change the subject
b) Who made this poll? You can prove anything with polls, the way the questions are posed can influence the answer. And were the people quite sure the poll would be anonymous? I've learned not to trust polls too much. Still, it's quite possible that people prefer the situation now to that of when Saddam was in power. No one disputed that Saddam was a terrible dictator.

kiwifan
Sep 26th, 2003, 09:12 PM
Don't be so angry Tine.

I think it was a very balanced article that doesn't kiss American ass.

Nothing in international politics is black and white.

If you assume Iraq was not a threat to the USA, or any other place, that's on you. I'm just glad you're not protecting me.

I don't care and you will never find a post where I said I care about WMD, Iraq had to go down for numerous reasons which in my case you can look at old threads to find if you need to.

Only the simple minded get hung up on "sound bites".

Apply a little history, politics and most importantly REALITY to the situation.

In the end the Iraqi people will be better off and bitterness won't change that. :p

Colin B
Sep 27th, 2003, 09:55 AM
I don't care and you will never find a post where I said I care about WMD, Iraq had to go down for numerous reasons which in my case you can look at old threads to find if you need to.

Just out of interest Kiwifan*; using your (non-WMD) criteria, which country/leader should be next to 'go down'? BTW - France doesn't count! ;)

*Or any other pro-GWII poster who has a strong view.

kiwifan
Sep 27th, 2003, 02:03 PM
Damn it Colin B, you took away the #1 answer!!!

Now I have to think for a whole 5 seconds before, Syria, comes to mind :devil: I don't think we will, but if I had to name a non-French destination :p ...

Jordan and the rest are just fine (individuals in those countries are another story :devil: ). I even think that Iran can be worked with on a peaceful level. But only with the direct threat of "regime change" hanging over their "saber rattling" heads.

There are certain nations that are going to be our enemies forever and any opportunity to eliminate our enemies at reasonable risk should be considered. (shuddap all of you, this is reality and I won't debate "reasonable" because one of you jackasses will start that "if one little child" bullshit)

Islamic Fundamentalism has declared war on the Western World and for the most part the Western World has sort of thought, "wacky clowns with funny beards" and gotten on with their lives.

The problem is there are "less wacky people" who are not willing to actually fight the Western World, but they are more than willing to slip millions of dollars to the "wacky guys with the funny beards" and whatever the the "wacky guys" do with the money is their own business.

You will read about things like how Hamas is the organization that teaches kids, feeds families and provides support to keep the Palestinians afloat and lots of Arab money-bags give lots of cash to them.

However we also know what else Hamas does because they are quite open about how they like to spend their time when they aren't feeding babies and teaching children.

Yes they spend it killing the children of Israel.

Just an example of $$$ going for both good causes and terror at the same time (not an Israel-Palestine debate, right?)

Now these Islamic Fundamentalists throughout the Middle East (some are located in every part of the world) consider the Western World (which includes Belgium and France :p ) but is most represented by the United States, as the "Great Satan" and they are justified in whatever actions they do against the Great Satan because, uh, well, because they believe they are justified (something about keeping our mini-skirts and concepts of gender equality and freedom of religion away from their women and children).

Now in the USA on every university campus you can quickly find 50 students who will proclaim the USA the Great Satan. That's fine. Now if those kids decided to take up arms, see the Symbionese Liberation Army for how we handle this.

So hate us, fine.

Bad mouth us, fine.

Add a few bombs and its ass kicking time. :devil:

It is in USA interest and in the world's interest to limit the reach and power of Islamic fundamentalists. Iraq wasn't run by fundamentalists but fit quite nicely into the "Less wacky people" category and was already our enemy and was the easiest way to start the job.

Anyone who doesn't grasp the concept of "pretext" and the ultimate threat of Islamic fundamentalism, that's on you guys. When the Wacky guys with funny beards have rifles and terrorize their own with their hardline intolerant beliefs, that's life. When they have bombs and they want to terrorize us (and us means Belgium and France too, kids) well it's our problem.

We are taking care of the problem, now. :)

Halardfan
Sep 27th, 2003, 05:08 PM
But you say "We are taking care of the problem" but are you? Isn't highly possible your just pouring more petrol on a raging fire?

The problem, which is obviously there, needs action on a host of fronts, some carrot, some stick...the US government needs to show its playing a fair hand...coming down on the guilty ones with great might is enitrely justifiable, but it can not develop into a fully feldged war on Islam...

I think you could do lot of good simply by tackling (not militarily) Saudi Arabia, which was the source of the bulk of the 9/11 terrorists and indeed the bulk of the fanatics full stop.

The Saudi regime has long straddled the fence, acted as a friend to the west, while funding extremist schools producing more fanatics and oppressing its own people...its a waste of time dropping bombs on wherever, if the terrorists will just be replaced soon enough. Which they will be, as long as the Saudi's are allowed the behave as they do.

The US and the wider world should put severe pressure on the Saudi's to stop funding the extremist schools, to introuce greater freedoms to its regular citiziens, drag the country into the 21st century, punish the guilty, free the innocent.

We should set ourlselves to resolving the Israel/Palestine situation once and for all...this affects us all. Pressure must be brought to be on both sides, no more fiddling, no more patience, peace now, and a fair settlement imposed if necessary by the world at large. The world absolutely has the power to do this, does it have the will?

A peaceful resoltuon there would stop other oppresive regimes in the area using Israel/Palestine as a scapegoat, to keep everyones eyes of their own oppression and inequality. They would no longer be able to whine about oppression Palestine which they crushed dissent in their own backyards.

I agree the time has passed for old world diplomatic channels, but I reject the notion that GW's all guns blazing, John Wayne style is any better...its has led only to chaos...its give us no hope for the future.

kiwifan
Oct 3rd, 2003, 06:24 PM
Sorry for the delayed response Mr. Ba.

I am not in disagreement with your points.

"Jordan and the rest are just fine (individuals in those countries are another story :devil: ). I even think that Iran can
be worked with on a peaceful level. But only with the direct threat of "regime change" hanging over their "saber
rattling" heads."

I would slide Saudis into that "less wacky" categpry as well.

What got me looking for this old thread though was, it looks like Iran may be next.

Not a war but it looks like we are going to persuade them to give up Nuke research in exchange for "protection".

See we aren't all about John Wayne; it's just our preferred method :devil:

kiwifan
Oct 6th, 2003, 10:33 PM
"Damn it Colin B, you took away the #1 answer!!! Now I have to think for a whole 5 seconds before, Syria, comes to mind I don't think we will, but if I had to
name a non-French destination ..."

Oh well as a minor update it appears that before we get a chance to put Syria in check, someone else has elected to lead the way.

Now if only those terrorist bases in Bordeaux (sp) were brought to light.

That would bring the thread full circle...