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View Full Version : Swedes say "No" to Euro!


Hagar
Sep 14th, 2003, 10:48 PM
:confused:
I am surprised. Not because I thought that they would vote "Yes" when Anna Lindh died, I just thought it was obvious that the Euro was a good thing. Apparently they won't hold another referendum about this issue for another ten years, so I'd better keep my Swedish coins...

Josh
Sep 14th, 2003, 11:01 PM
The Swedish economy is doing much better than the EU's so people are less inclined to get aboard.
Combine that with the fact that Scandinavians in general are rather suspicious of European bureaucracy and a European constitution and this "Nej" seems hardly surprising. It's a bit of a Big Brother fear I suppose....

I expect Sweden to join the Euro before the end of this decade though.

Colin B
Sep 14th, 2003, 11:20 PM
The Swedish economy is doing much better than the EU's so people are less inclined to get aboard.
Combine that with the fact that Scandinavians in general are rather suspicious of European bureaucracy and a European constitution and this "Nej" seems hardly surprising. It's a bit of a Big Brother fear I suppose....

I expect Sweden to join the Euro before the end of this decade though.This will please the 'eurosceptics' in the UK. They had been worried that if Sweden said 'yes', the remaining scandinavian countries would follow and we would be the only european nation without the Euro, so Tony Blair could have said we have no choice but to join.

propi
Sep 14th, 2003, 11:42 PM
Well I'm sure that eventually all nordic countries will take the Euro anyway, so the position of GB will remain complex.....
There are more fears about the Euro, the common currency give more sensation of unit, and some northern countries are afraid of those of us in the South.... however Euro is the future :D

Ted of Teds Tennis
Sep 15th, 2003, 02:35 AM
Aren't there already tensions between the big Eurozone states and the little ones because France and Germany are walking all over the budget deficit rules?

Darran
Sep 15th, 2003, 08:07 AM
I'm glad Sweden said no, hopefully the UK will say no too.

Halardfan
Sep 15th, 2003, 08:55 AM
Most Britsh Eurosceptics are wary of Europe because they think its too liberal...

Most Swedish Eurosceptics seem wary becuase its not liberal enough!

For me, Id love a more united Europe, Britian would gain from it, and I believe Europe would gain from Britian being a more active part of it too.

I think its very hard to forsee Britian voting to join the Euro though...not with a hugely hostile Press at work...much of it owned, btw, by non-Europeans...

Hi Rupert! :p

Colin B
Sep 15th, 2003, 09:40 AM
Most Britsh Eurosceptics are wary of Europe because they think its too liberal...Only readers of the Daily Paranoid...sorry Daily Mail would think that!
No, I think it's our 'island mentality' at work: We don't want to hand our economy over to some faceless eurocrat in Brussels (no disrespect to the Belgians) who wasn't elected by us and is therefore unaccountable to us.
I think its very hard to forsee Britian voting to join the Euro though...not with a hugely hostile Press at work...much of it owned, btw, by non-Europeans...

Hi Rupert! :p
LOL - only three titles, thankfully.

Big Fat Pink Elephant
Sep 15th, 2003, 09:42 AM
Go sweden hah! :D

scandinavian countries knew that the swedes would say no...

coz of this, norway will probably wait even longer to hold another EU voting don't you think?

Halardfan
Sep 15th, 2003, 01:54 PM
But Murdoch...

He owns the best selling tabloid AND broadsheet papers in the land, papers which feign support for Labour if they think they will win, but in reality promote a deeply conservative, anti-European agenda...

As this extract concerning Murdoch's Sun newspaper from an article Ive found confirms...

"The 1990 offensive, launched on November 1 with the now infamous front-page headline "Up Yours Delors", was The Sun throwing its populist weight behind Margaret Thatcher's recent denunciation in Parliament of what she perceived as the determination of Jacques Delors and the European Commission to impose the Ecu and take Britain through "the back door to a federal Europe."

Even by The Sun's crude standards the November 1 issue was pretty strong. Alan Rusbridger, writing in The Guardian, acknowledged The Sun's long and successful tradition of being rude to foreigners - "The Wapping world is peopled by wops, eyties, spics, krauts, yanks, frogs, argies" but wrote that "seldom has it savaged one of its pet targets quite as viciously as it did yesterday", while Max Wilkinson, writing in The Financial Times, saw The Sun's "sickening chauvinism"as "an obvious, if wildly vulgarised, echo of what the prime minister was herself saying a few days earlier." A Labour M.E.P. called for the paper to be prosecuted for its " xenophobic racist attack", while Julian Critchley, Conservative MP for Aldershot denounced the article as "an appalling exercise in prejudice and bigotry." Meanwhile, Eurosceptic MPs were delighted, and Thatcher's press secretary Bernard Ingham expressed the view that "At root, it is expressing the prejudices and feelings of the average Brit. It all adds to the joy of nations."

mboyle
Sep 15th, 2003, 02:41 PM
Only readers of the Daily Paranoid...sorry Daily Mail would think that!
No, I think it's our 'island mentality' at work: We don't want to hand our economy over to some faceless eurocrat in Brussels (no disrespect to the Belgians) who wasn't elected by us and is therefore unaccountable to us..

That seems to make a damn good amount of sense:o . I definately think Europe in general is too Liberal (borderline Communist). I might be able to stand living in the UK, but the rest of the continent is far too left for my liking. They'll go the way of Rome soon enough:) .

propi
Sep 15th, 2003, 02:55 PM
That seems to make a damn good amount of sense:o . I definately think Europe in general is too Liberal (borderline Communist). I might be able to stand living in the UK, but the rest of the continent is far too left for my liking. They'll go the way of Rome soon enough:) .
Europe isn't the one who claim to be defensor of liberties or the most liberal place in the world as others do :)

decemberlove
Sep 15th, 2003, 03:00 PM
That seems to make a damn good amount of sense:o . I definately think Europe in general is too Liberal (borderline Communist). I might be able to stand living in the UK, but the rest of the continent is far too left for my liking. They'll go the way of Rome soon enough:) .

oh those dirty reds :)

Colin B
Sep 15th, 2003, 03:01 PM
That seems to make a damn good amount of sense:o . I definately think Europe in general is too Liberal (borderline Communist). I might be able to stand living in the UK, but the rest of the continent is far too left for my liking. They'll go the way of Rome soon enough:) .
Actually many European countries are governed by political parties that stand centre-right, whereas Britain's elected government is formed by the Labour Party which, as it's name implies, is a socialist organization; although Tony Blair's policies have become increasingly conservative (small 'c'), which are making him increasingly isolated within his party.
I think he's far more popular in America than he is here!

gentenaire
Sep 15th, 2003, 03:05 PM
That seems to make a damn good amount of sense:o . I definately think Europe in general is too Liberal (borderline Communist). I might be able to stand living in the UK, but the rest of the continent is far too left for my liking. They'll go the way of Rome soon enough:) .

What has allowing gays to marry, legalising euthanasia, etc. to do with communism?

Believe me, Europe is far from communist. A Chinese colleague of mine sent his young son back to China so that he wouldn't grow up under the terrible Western influence ;)

Just because decision making here is based on more than just money issues, doesn't mean we're communists. I suggest you learn the difference between communism and socialism.

*Bubbles*
Sep 15th, 2003, 03:05 PM
stupid, stupid country :angel:

gentenaire
Sep 15th, 2003, 03:12 PM
I heard that the big cities voted yes, but the rest of the country voted no.

[S@nti]
Sep 15th, 2003, 03:15 PM
That seems to make a damn good amount of sense:o . I definately think Europe in general is too Liberal (borderline Communist). I might be able to stand living in the UK, but the rest of the continent is far too left for my liking. They'll go the way of Rome soon enough:) .

what have you drunk? :haha:

Josh
Sep 15th, 2003, 03:35 PM
I heard that the big cities voted yes, but the rest of the country voted no.

So all of Swedens three big cities voted yes? ;) :lol:

*Bubbles*
Sep 15th, 2003, 04:05 PM
Actually Sweden's only big city voted yes ;) and Skåne (the south part of Sweden) also did but in the rest of the country the majority voted no.

Josh
Sep 15th, 2003, 06:32 PM
Actually Sweden's only big city voted yes ;) and Skåne (the south part of Sweden) also did but in the rest of the country the majority voted no.

That includes Malmö right? What did Göteborg vote? :lol:

*Bubbles*
Sep 15th, 2003, 07:30 PM
That includes Malmö right? What did Göteborg vote? :lol:
yup, Malmö is in Skåne. I'm impressed ;)
In Göteborg it was pretty close with "no" winning with 51.3% against 46.6%

I really fail to understand Sweden's fear of the Euro. It's not like it's going to bite...
Thank God for Stockholm, it's like a country of its own

gentenaire
Sep 15th, 2003, 08:20 PM
I just think it's a referendum thing. I can't think of a single referendum where people actually voted for the change (except for the Eastern European countries who clearly benefit from joining the EU). When it comes down to it, people are afraid of changes.

Josh
Sep 15th, 2003, 08:53 PM
yup, Malmö is in Skåne. I'm impressed ;)
In Göteborg it was pretty close with "no" winning with 51.3% against 46.6%

I really fail to understand Sweden's fear of the Euro. It's not like it's going to bite...
Thank God for Stockholm, it's like a country of its own

At least the Swedish Fins are less chicken than their 'big' brothers/sisters. :lol: ;)

Linn
Sep 15th, 2003, 08:54 PM
First of all the Swedes did notice what happened to Spain, Greece and Germany among other countries that joined the Euro. We have a pretty strong economy and I know that there are Swedes who are dissapointed with the EU. Also the Scandinavian countries are different from the rest of euorpe. I don't say it's bad or good but it's a fact. I think the general opinion is too keep our good economy a while and see what happens to the other Euro-countries before we join. Is that wrong? :)
Oh, I forgot to mention, Sweden is not a very big country and that will affect us and are affecting us in the EU already. We don't have as much power as the 'biggest' countries. Still we are doing really well, so do we need 'them'?
Im glad we said no!

Linn
Sep 15th, 2003, 08:55 PM
Oh, and Stockholm is not a country of it's own, it's so typically Swedish Sweden can be.

Gallofa
Sep 15th, 2003, 09:20 PM
They should do it the Spanish way when they write the options:

Option 1) Do you want your country to benefit from the advancement and improvement of being one with our European brother countries. A step towards the future that will create employment, enhance education and security as well as improve tourism and our relationships with our neighbours.

Option 2) You want the rest of Europe to hate us and this country to go down the drain.

;)

Josh
Sep 15th, 2003, 09:21 PM
If it were in Britain, I'd still see most Brits choose option 2. :lol:

propi
Sep 15th, 2003, 09:43 PM
First of all the Swedes did notice what happened to Spain, Greece and Germany among other countries that joined the Euro.
What happened???? We're going really well :D :devil:
:lol: @ us scaring the northern countries :devil: Luckily when we came in Belgium, Holland and Germany were already inside :devil:

Jennifer's wife
Sep 15th, 2003, 09:46 PM
I'm glad Sweden said no, hopefully the UK will say no too.

i was just gonna say the same thing! :yeah:

Big Fat Pink Elephant
Sep 15th, 2003, 09:49 PM
Actually Sweden's only big city voted yes ;) and Skåne (the south part of Sweden) also did but in the rest of the country the majority voted no.
skåne :lol: (sorry, just had to :angel: )
lol martina, you're just upset coz you will still have to change your currency when you go to sweden :p

i hate politics *sigh*

salima
Sep 15th, 2003, 11:23 PM
...........down for dayly maintance.................

I forgot why I was so eager to post...........
:banghead:
yes, I think Sweeden did right, there is no reason to put your money (currancy) in the care of others while your economy is good. the inflation rate is healthy, employment are up.

Linn are you old enough to wote?

Scotso
Sep 16th, 2003, 03:42 AM
Seems smart to me. Sweden is a pretty prosperous country... why rock the boat?

Hidden Stillness
Sep 16th, 2003, 06:20 AM
All right! Go, Swedes!

DutchieGirl
Sep 16th, 2003, 07:22 AM
I think it's just a matter of time before the Scandinavian countries go in with the euro! Which will be really cool! :D

Linn
Sep 16th, 2003, 09:11 AM
Propi, are you from Spain or Greece?

Salima, yeah im old enough to vote, finally, haha.

propi
Sep 16th, 2003, 09:36 AM
Propi, are you from Spain or Greece?

Salima, yeah im old enough to vote, finally, haha.
Clearly yes, I'm; if you look at my signature you will realize it ;)

Big Fat Pink Elephant
Sep 16th, 2003, 04:04 PM
I think it's just a matter of time before the Scandinavian countries go in with the euro! Which will be really cool! :D
erm.... one Scandinavian country would still have to vote "yes" for an EU membership........ :p

Josh
Sep 16th, 2003, 04:29 PM
erm.... one Scandinavian country would still have to vote "yes" for an EU membership........ :p

I know Iceland is not very "big" but that doesn't mean they can just be forgotten. :angel: :p

Big Fat Pink Elephant
Sep 16th, 2003, 04:41 PM
I know Iceland is not very "big" but that doesn't mean they can just be forgotten. :angel: :p
*slap*
Iceland isn't a Scandinavian country.... god i almost fell for that one! :p
Scandinavia = Norway, Sweden, Denmark
Nordic = Scandinavian + Iceland, Finland

Josh
Sep 16th, 2003, 04:43 PM
Pff to me it's Scandinavian....unlike Finland, they speak like you guys do. :ras:

Big Fat Pink Elephant
Sep 16th, 2003, 04:45 PM
*slap* again!
the norwegian and the icelandic ppl USED to speak the same language... i'm sure they would understand us if we spoke very slowwwwwwwly. we don't talk alike at all! :p

Josh
Sep 16th, 2003, 05:12 PM
*slap* again!
the norwegian and the icelandic ppl USED to speak the same language... i'm sure they would understand us if we spoke very slowwwwwwwly. we don't talk alike at all! :p

Still, their language belongs to the Scandinavian family so :ras: again! ;)

Linn
Sep 16th, 2003, 07:34 PM
Propi, sorry i did'nt check any signatures. Yeah, i have spanish friends who are really dissapointed with the euro, it's much more expensive down there now. I don't say it's bad to join the euro, but I think Sweden made a good decision!!!

propi
Sep 16th, 2003, 07:45 PM
Propi, sorry i did'nt check any signatures. Yeah, i have spanish friends who are really dissapointed with the euro, it's much more expensive down there now. I don't say it's bad to join the euro, but I think Sweden made a good decision!!!
:wavey:
Well it's true everything is now more expensive but it's not Euro's fault, just shop owners who raised prices 1 €= 166.386 pesetas, but for example with some that used to cost 15 pesetas now it costs 15 centimes, in reality what they have done is adding an extra 16 % without reason, I think that's what happened in almost all countries in Euro ...... on the other hand it's much better when travelling abroad to Euro countries :D
I think at the end you will join as well ;) :p

Big Fat Pink Elephant
Sep 16th, 2003, 07:58 PM
Still, their language belongs to the Scandinavian family so :ras: again! ;)
*drags your tongue out and nails it to the table* :D

*Bubbles*
Sep 16th, 2003, 09:21 PM
At least the Swedish Fins are less chicken than their 'big' brothers/sisters. :lol: ;)
Amen to that ;)
Oh, and Stockholm is not a country of it's own, it's so typically Swedish Sweden can be.
Hmm, I'm not sure I agree completely. First of all I do know it's not a country of its own ;) but it's completely different to the majority of Sweden. For example Norrland or just small towns in general. Being the capital it is bound to be more international than the rest of the country and that was my point, plus the majority of Stockholm voted yes, so that makes it different from the rest of the country too...
lol martina, you're just upset coz you will still have to change your currency when you go to sweden :p
*slap* Marri, of course not :angel: pff, it's much deeper than that but yes, obviously I'd be much easier for me to use the same money all the time.. *slap,slap,slap* :p

Big Fat Pink Elephant
Sep 16th, 2003, 09:50 PM
:lol: martina......... :p

Josh
Sep 16th, 2003, 10:34 PM
I love Finland! :angel: :kiss:

:lol:

Josh
Sep 16th, 2003, 10:36 PM
I'm beginning to think my great-grandmother was really a Swede from Finland. :D

Well ok she was not, but I'll just pretend from now on.;)

Linn
Sep 17th, 2003, 12:57 AM
Propi, yeah I think in the end we will join as well, but hopefully that day it's going to be more stable. And yes, the prices got higher in many countries, not only Spain, I know that Greece lost a lot of tourists that way.

The euro might be a good thing, it's a step closer to a united europe, but at the same time it might not be the best way to do it. There are a lot of questions to sort out before, about the power, how to get united in questions that can cause big fights, how to unite the people within EU, and so on. It's not only about opening borders and then think it's going to work. I love europe and all the different lifestyles we have, all the different cultures and people and one day I would love to see us as one, but let it take time so that it comes more naturally!

Linn
Sep 17th, 2003, 01:03 AM
Bubbles, yeah Stockholm is the capital and it's more international than the rest of Sweden. But do you know that the majority of Swedes in Sthlm are from other places, such as Norrland and the south? So, in Stockholm you find the best jobs, you earn most money = you want the euro!
Every city in Sweden has it's own charm, but in general they are all the same. Are you from here by the way?
Good night now!

Big Fat Pink Elephant
Sep 17th, 2003, 08:01 AM
i met some finns not too long ago... they were using their crappy swedish to ask if i had a lighter... lol, it was so cute!

dammit - i've been to sweden tons and tons of times, but not sthlm :eek: :o well ok, i've spent some time at the train station!
*wanna shop in sthlm* :worship:

propi
Sep 17th, 2003, 08:45 AM
:wavey:
Hey Linn, this is getting more and more interesting...:bounce: I like it :)
United Europe will never mean unique Europe, of course every single country will continue having its own traditions and customs, I just can imagine France denying theirs, or Spanish or any other.... when you travel abroad in an airport you can see the long queues you don't have to do just for being European, that's simple, but is a clear proof of how efficient things are going at the moment....
Another example, think about the Socrates-Erasmus program.... lots of European university students are allowed to do a course in another European country and meet nice people from all around... well maybe I'm too optimistic, but I can only see the advantages :)

BTW I want to go to Stockholm as well :o :hearts:

nasty nick#2
Sep 17th, 2003, 08:58 AM
I'm really dissapointed the result was "No the Euro" cause i voted yes. I'm sure we'll enter soon or later anyway, but now we'll have to wait for a few more couple of years and have a new voting :rolleyes:

There are ofcourse a million of reasons why ppl voted no, and most regions did so except Skåne and Stockholm ( where the more civilized ppl in sweden lives ;) ) One reason is ofcourse that Sweden's economy is doing pretty well now apart from the time we entered EU. Many ppl in Sweden are conservative cowards, "Why change something that is doing well do something uncertain?" then why are we even part of EU if we don't want a piece of the cake? it can only get better + it's good for our country to have a better influence in what happens in Europe. Many people also voted NO cause they don't know that much about what it's all about, others from small places in the North for example jusat voted NO cause they don't like what WE Sthlm ppl like, if we like somethinbg they simply have to be against it. Damn peasants... :lol: Another strange thing is that many women voted NO, (we should have never let them have suffrage in the first place :tape: ) Anyway we'll have to except this result and wait for better days, hopefully Denmark will enter next year and then it's only we and GB left outside and we'll realize it's better to be part of it.

Colin B
Sep 17th, 2003, 09:16 AM
I love europe and all the different lifestyles we have, all the different cultures and people and one day I would love to see us as one, but let it take time so that it comes more naturally!
Linn, the fact we all have different cultures (not to mention different languages) is precisely the reason that 'as one' would be a terrible idea.
We can never become a 'United States of Europe' in the same mould as The United States of America. There, people from all over the world came together to wipe the slate clean, make a fresh start and create a new world for themselves. Here we have far too much history and too many disparate and deep rooted cultures.
In the United Kingdom, many people would like to see Scotland and Wales become independant countries. Many Catalans(sp) want independance from Spain, the Basque region of Spain/France is another example. Even the Belgians have duality! How would lumping us all together in one huge, lumbering bureaucratic nightmare solve anything?
Let's have close economic and cultural ties, by all means, but let's also celebrate our differences whilst maintaining the independance and individuality of our nations.

Gallofa
Sep 17th, 2003, 10:59 AM
Colin B, that is an island mentatility if I ever saw one ;).

The fact is you can live on your own, the UK, Sweden or Switzerland even. Nobody is telling you otherwise. But you would be better off joining the EU. What is it going to do for you Colin B? probably nothing. You won't even notice it, so why join you think? things that are good for a country or for the economy needn't reflect on immediate personal improvement.

In a world where countries are coming together, political regionalism has no place. Not yours with the scottish and welsh, not ours with the catalans and the vasques. I truly feel the demands for independence of such small regions are on the brick of being laughable. A product of educating people in the hate of their neighbours, retelling the horrors of the past as if they were of today.

Worried about losing your heritage? we (Spain) have been part of Europe for over 20 years now. I don't feel any more german than I used to do ;).

Linn
Sep 17th, 2003, 11:59 AM
Well, when i mean 'as one' i don't talk about about people giving up their languages, cultures and traditions to become one country. That's never gonna happen and i don't want that to happen. But I want every country to feel comfortable with the politicians that are going to make all the decisions, cause if that is not working it's going to cause arguments. Right now there are a few countries that has more power than others.
Let's celebrate our diffrences, it's an amazing thing.
You can never lose your heritage, and people in Europe are too proud to give anything like that up and that would be a shame if it happened

Propi, i can see a lot of advantages as well and in my opinion we live in the most interesting part of the world. I think that the younger generations, the students and soon our kids are going to make europe even more 'open' with less conflicts and a bigger understanding. Right now we are dealing with people in our countries (old, retired) that has never been out of their own countries, can't communicate in any other language but their own and don't find it very amusing that we are opening borders. Usually they have strong opinions and a hard time adjusting to this new thing, yeah, what im trying to say is that the with the younger generations it's going to be more natural. Don't you think?


.

Colin B
Sep 17th, 2003, 01:03 PM
Colin B, that is an island mentatility if I ever saw one ;).
Yep!

The fact is you can live on your own, the UK, Sweden or Switzerland even. Nobody is telling you otherwise. But you would be better off joining the EU. What is it going to do for you Colin B? probably nothing. You won't even notice it, so why join you think? things that are good for a country or for the economy needn't reflect on immediate personal improvement.We joined the E.U. (or E.E.C. as it was) in 1973, thirteen years before Spain; it has had some advantages and some disadvantages. On the whole, I'm glad we are part of the Economic Union but I do not want to be a citizen in a European 'super state', a Federal Europe, which is the next step in the grand plan for Europe.

In a world where countries are coming together Which two countries are uniting into one whole? In the last twenty years we have seen the break up (into individual autonomous nations) of the old Eastern Block, sometimes with violent consequences (ie, The Balkans) as a result of several cultural groups being forced to live as one. The current violence in Chechnya is a result of that region's struggle to break free of Russia.
A product of educating people in the hate of their neighbours, retelling the horrors of the past as if they were of today.
Sadly, yes this does still happen amongst small minded people. Forcing them to become citizens of a state with a population of 750,000,000 (ok, that's a guess) is only going to lead to even more small mindedness.

Worried about losing your heritage? we (Spain) have been part of Europe for over 20 years now. I don't feel any more german than I used to do ;).
To put my response in a very simplistic way Gallofa, which football team would you rather be cheering for in the 2018 World Cup - Spain or The United States of Europe?
I'd rather you were cheering on Spain, which BTW, is a country close to my heart. :)

*Bubbles*
Sep 17th, 2003, 06:22 PM
I love Finland! :angel: :kiss:

:lol:
That's the right attitude Josh ;)
lol, soon you'll realize that you're actually a Swedish Fin too :p

Marri - feel free to practice your crappy Finnish with me anytime :p :kiss:

Linn - I've lived in Stockholm so I know the city pretty well. Sure, every city has it's own charm but you have to agree that Stockholm, in general, is a more open-minded city than most other cities in Sweden.

Linn
Sep 17th, 2003, 09:03 PM
Bubbles, yes it is more open minded in general, just as London, New York and other cities in the world. But still, if London is open minded, it's still very English, and New York is still very American. U know what I'm trying to say? :)

nasty nick#2
Sep 17th, 2003, 09:18 PM
Sthlm rocks, there are so many good places in sthlm. I especially love Söder. Are you also from Sthlm Linn?

Big Fat Pink Elephant
Sep 17th, 2003, 10:12 PM
martina, i didn't mean to diss the finns' swedish ok? :p if i was a finn, having both swedish and finnish as the official languages, i'm sure i would be able to be either good in swedish, crappy in finnish and vice versa? just like i can Bokmål and Nynorsk :angel:

Linn
Sep 18th, 2003, 09:15 AM
Im not from Sthlm originally but I've been living there. I love it, and Söder is one of my favourite parts too, and Gamla Stan!

*Bubbles*
Sep 19th, 2003, 03:00 PM
martina, i didn't mean to diss the finns' swedish ok? :p if i was a finn, having both swedish and finnish as the official languages, i'm sure i would be able to be either good in swedish, crappy in finnish and vice versa? just like i can Bokmål and Nynorsk :angel:
I know Marri ;) :kiss:
so you wanna hångla or play håndball? :angel:

Linn - I do understand you and I completely agree :)

gentenaire
Sep 19th, 2003, 03:39 PM
To put my response in a very simplistic way Gallofa, which football team would you rather be cheering for in the 2018 World Cup - Spain or The United States of Europe?
I'd rather you were cheering on Spain, which BTW, is a country close to my heart. :)

When Belgium is playing another country, I cheer for the Belgians. When a European country is playing a country from another continent, I cheer for the European country. I don't see why being European should go at the expense of having your own nationality. 'United in diversity'

No one expects people to give up their own identity, culture, or anything. If the UK would get the Euro, you'd still the head of your queen on your coins! It's a co-operation, it's not an operation meant to wipe out cultural differences. In fact, I think it's the exact opposite. People love collecting the coins from the different countries, love seeing the differences, the styles that sometimes say a lot about the country. The idea is very simple: our economy is better if the countries we trade with the most are also well off. So be helping other countries, you end up improving your own. And if you have the same currency, trade becomes a lot easier. I can honestly say that I've refrained from buying things from English online stores because of the pound. I prefer buying things in stores from countries with the same currency, it's cheaper for me.

It's also nice that when I now go to some country on the other side of the planet, I don't have to exchange my money for dollars first and then for the currency of that country (you didn't think exchange offices in Indonesia would have Belgian franks, did you?), it was all a waste of money.

Maybe Belgians are less scared of the European idea because we're used to living in a federal state, with certain things organised on national level, others on a regional level. I guess countries where everything is organised on a national level are scared that in the end, everything will be on a European level. The laws aren't the same in all the US States, you know. Europe will never be just like the US. Europen consists of different countries with different languages and different cultures and is prouf of it, because that's what makes Europe Europe!

propi
Sep 19th, 2003, 03:52 PM
When Belgium is playing another country, I cheer for the Belgians. When a European country is playing a country from another continent, I cheer for the European country. I don't see why being European should go at the expense of having your own nationality. 'United in diversity'

No one expects people to give up their own identity, culture, or anything. If the UK would get the Euro, you'd still the head of your queen on your coins! It's a co-operation, it's not an operation meant to wipe out cultural differences. In fact, I think it's the exact opposite. People love collecting the coins from the different countries, love seeing the differences, the styles that sometimes say a lot about the country. The idea is very simple: our economy is better if the countries we trade with the most are also well off. So be helping other countries, you end up improving your own. And if you have the same currency, trade becomes a lot easier. I can honestly say that I've refrained from buying things from English online stores because of the pound. I prefer buying things in stores from countries with the same currency, it's cheaper for me.

It's also nice that when I now go to some country on the other side of the planet, I don't have to exchange my money for dollars first and then for the currency of that country (you didn't think exchange offices in Indonesia would have Belgian franks, did you?), it was all a waste of money.

Maybe Belgians are less scared of the European idea because we're used to living in a federal state, with certain things organised on national level, others on a regional level. I guess countries where everything is organised on a national level are scared that in the end, everything will be on a European level. The laws aren't the same in all the US States, you know. Europe will never be just like the US. Europen consists of different countries with different languages and different cultures and is prouf of it, because that's what makes Europe Europe!
:worship:
So true!!! What non European don't seem to understand is that we won't become what they call United States of Europe since only some competence will be commonly shared while others will remain at national or regionar level :)

Darran
Sep 19th, 2003, 05:58 PM
But given the Euro is floundering, and the economy of the UK and several scandinavian countries are doing really well, surely you see its rediculous for the UK to join the euro.
Giving control of our economy to Europe I feel would be wrong, our LOW unemployment rates would be rise the way Ireland Germany and France are.

Colin B
Sep 21st, 2003, 12:23 AM
I don't see why being European should go at the expense of having your own nationality.But Tine, how would you feel about losing your Belgian identity at the expense of being European? Because that's the grand plan, the Holy Grail of european politics. Galoffa wouldn't be able to cheer for Spain because Spain as an individual country (with it's own football team), would no longer exist!

I went slightly off topic I know but I was moving beyond the Euro debate to the idea of a 'Federal Europe' ie, to the ultimate aim of the 'european super-state' , of which Belgium, England, Germany, etc, are non-autonomous regions - and yes, I realise that this is still 20 - 30 years away.
Firstly a 'common economy' will be established, with it's own ministry which will, like it or not, have the power to overule national governments. The second stage will be to create a european foreign ministry, then a defence ministry and single european armed forces, again, all with power of veto over member state ministries (you couldn't have a united Europe behaving as we did over the Iraq conflict, with some states siding with and others against the invasion).
Then eventually comes the final goal: A Europe-wide administration governing a superpower to rival The U.S.A. My personal view is that, for reasons laid out in a previous post, this would be a bad idea.

gentenaire
Sep 21st, 2003, 10:56 AM
But Tine, how would you feel about losing your Belgian identity at the expense of being European? Because that's the grand plan, the Holy Grail of european politics. Galoffa wouldn't be able to cheer for Spain because Spain as an individual country (with it's own football team), would no longer exist!

So how you feel depends on the name of your country?

Flanders is not a country, I still feel very Flemish, am proud to be Flemish and cheer for the Flemish.

Gallofa
Sep 21st, 2003, 01:47 PM
Hi there, Colin and Tine, I forgot about this thread until I saw it just now ;) sorry for not answering sooner! And btw, my name is Bea.

About the whole "cheering for a team" issue. You can not create a nation in a minute. Of course the European countries will retain as much of their identity as they need to. These things are not taken away from the people. You brits have not joined because you are not comfortable with the idea. We vote over here too you know ;). We vote for our government and representatives in the EU, so "they" are not doing things we don't want. This supra-national authority will be powerful, but we will create it as we feel comfortable with it. And of course there will be things I don't like about it, just like there are things I don't like about our current Spanish government, but since I didn't vote for them, I guess that's just normal. But over 50% of the Spanish population did. So they are representing them, the majority. That's democracy for you.

I cheer for Real Madrid, Atletico de Madrid and Rayo Vallecano, much more than I do for the Spanish national team to be truthful. But I would cheer for a European team if there was one, against the other continents.

I am a citizen of Europe. I enjoy being European. I am Spanish, European and from Madrid. In that order.

*JR*
Sep 21st, 2003, 03:07 PM
Now if they would have gotten Annika to campaign for a Yes vote... ;)

Colin B
Sep 21st, 2003, 04:03 PM
Bea and Tine, I was about to admit that I'm obviously flogging a dead horse on this one and say, 'Oh well, by the time it happens I'll probably be dead or too old to care.' LOL.

But then I flip to a news site and I'm confronted with exactly the reason I don't want to be part of Europe: Britain is to agree to the unrestricted introduction of GM crops, even before the report on scientific trials is released! Why?
a) "We don't want to upset Europe", who say we have to have them.
b) "We don't want to upset America", who will be selling us the technology to create Frankenstein foods.

We are used to kissing America's arse, looks like we are already kissing Europe's too. :rolleyes:

Car Key Boi
Sep 21st, 2003, 04:29 PM
Then eventually comes the final goal: A Europe-wide administration governing a superpower to rival The U.S.A.

be honest with the CKB and answer me this

if this proposed Eurotard superpower was to ever superceed the USA as the #1 superpower, it's gonna fuck with the world even worse than what we currently do, right?

- Car Key Boi :devil:

Colin B
Sep 21st, 2003, 10:29 PM
if this proposed Eurotard superpower was to ever superceed the USA as the #1 superpower, it's gonna fuck with the world even worse than what we currently do, right?
No need to worry CKB. When the U.S.A. goes down the tubes, it'll take the whole human race with it.
The next superpower will be populated by mutant monster insects.
Oh - and Jehova's Witnesses! ;)

Car Key Boi
Sep 23rd, 2003, 07:46 AM
erm, for once i was asking a serious question

in yuor opinion, would this proposed United States of Europe fuck with the world worse than what we currently do?

gentenaire
Sep 23rd, 2003, 07:48 AM
Do you think that's even possible, ckb?

Colin B
Sep 23rd, 2003, 08:47 AM
erm, for once i was asking a serious question

in yuor opinion, would this proposed United States of Europe fuck with the world worse than what we currently do?
Why do you think I was Joking?
To answer your question: No. We'd be too busy arguing amongst ourselves.
Anyway, we already spent centuries 'fucking' with the world before you guys came along.

Car Key Boi
Sep 23rd, 2003, 09:21 AM
Anyway, we already spent centuries 'fucking' with the world before you guys came along.

ahh, so true, Eurotards invented Imperialism, right?

lets say that the Eurotards managed to refrain from arguing amongst themselves and this proposed USE became a reality and that they now have the CAPIBILITY to fuck with the world, would they fuck with the world worse than what we currently do?

honest answer please

Colin B
Sep 23rd, 2003, 10:00 AM
ahh, so true, Eurotards invented Imperialism, right?

lets say that the Eurotards managed to refrain from arguing amongst themselves and this proposed USE became a reality and that they now have the CAPIBILITY to fuck with the world, would they fuck with the world worse than what we currently do?

honest answer please
Honest answer: No.

This is based on the fact that Europe really has learned from it's past mistakes, humility being one of the first lessons. We would lack America's hubris ('arrogance' is not quite what I mean).

Car Key Boi
Sep 23rd, 2003, 10:12 AM
Honest answer: No.

This is based on the fact that Europe really has learned from it's past mistakes, humility being one of the first lessons. We would lack America's hubris ('arrogance' is not quite what I mean).


tell that to the Eastern Eurotards! especially the Serbs, the Bosnians, the Russians, the Kosovans and so on and so forth

Colin B
Sep 23rd, 2003, 10:23 AM
tell that to the Eastern Eurotards! especially the Serbs, the Bosnians, the Russians, the Kosovans and so on and so forthSomehow, I don't think they would be running the show!

Car Key Boi
Sep 23rd, 2003, 10:29 AM
Somehow, I don't think they would be running the show!

agreed! the Brits will end up running the show, prolly with Blair as President, and as yuo know, we Yanks OWNZ yuor leaders, regardless if their Conservative or Labor

USA >> http://carkeyboi.com/dump/hump.gif << USE

- Car Key Boi http://carkeyboi.com/dump/lol.gif

Colin B
Sep 23rd, 2003, 10:46 AM
agreed! the Brits will end up running the show, prolly with Blair as President, and as yuo know, we Yanks OWNZ yuor leaders, regardless if their Conservative or Labor

USA >> http://carkeyboi.com/dump/hump.gif << USE

That's why the French and the Germans will always lead european policy.

BTW, Blair is so unpopular here now that he'll be lucky if he's still leading his own party at the next election.

Car Key Boi
Sep 23rd, 2003, 10:54 AM
yuo guys have the fourth largest economy in the world and the largest military force second only to Russia

it's always money and military power that leads the way

and i heard a rumor that Blair plans on quitting anyway, coz he want's the job of leading the USE

go Blair! :bounce: