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View Full Version : Martina N's-Interview in the NY Times


alleycat
Aug 26th, 2003, 12:52 PM
All for Partners
Interview by DEBORAH SOLOMON


Diane Von Furstenberg is designing outfits for Venus Williams and turning the tennis court into a fashion runway. Has any designer approached you?

Let's not go there. No designers have approached me. I can't even get an endorsement for wearing clothing. Once you hit 30, they don't want you.

You just won your 20th Wimbledon title at 46. And we're looking forward to watching you in the U.S. Open in the coming weeks.

Forty-six is ancient for an athlete. You'd think advertisers would want me because they would be trying to hit the middle-age market. Women my age are the ones who are buying clothes -- they have the money and the kids. But I guess the advertisers haven't figured that out.

It's true. You've become an American symbol of staying power and middle-aged glamour. But you know advertisers: they're not exactly free thinkers. They're probably terrified of your public statements about your life as a lesbian.

Actually, I do have one big deal. I am still a spokesperson for Subaru. I also have a deal with Prince rackets. But let's put it this way: Wheaties hasn't called.

Would you like to see the United States legalize same-sex marriages?

It's just a matter of time until it happens. The right wing, the Christian right, is saying that the majority of people are against gay marriage. But since when has any social issue been pushed forward by popularity, by a majority?

The Vietnam War was probably the last time dissenters formed any kind of majority in this country. So many distinguished priests were part of the antiwar movement.

And look at them now! You see the Catholic Church denouncing gay marriage when they have been doing worse in their own church. And never mind how they behaved during World War II! The Holocaust didn't bother them. But gay marriage bothers them. I think they should clean their own house before telling me how to clean mine.

You speak about the church with the fervor of a lapsed Catholic.

I'm not any religion. I don't know if my mother is Catholic or not. But I believe in the existence of a higher power. I believe there is one big God out there. I don't go to church. It's how you behave in life, not whether you go to church and pray, that makes you a worthy human being.

Do you think you are worthy?

Only the greater power can judge. When people say, ''You are going to hell for this,'' I think, let whoever is up there decide.

You've played the Williams sisters in doubles matches and lost. Do you think you can beat them at doubles?

I would love to play them again. Of course I know I could beat them.

Can you disclose your battle plan? Are you hiding any weapons?

Venus and Serena are great singles players, but at doubles they are not so great. They don't volley as well as other players, and that's something you can exploit in a doubles match. The hardest part is getting to that volley, because they hit such hard serves. They are so powerful it is hard to get into a rally with them.

Some people say athletes are overpaid.

With tennis, it isn't like baseball where the money is guaranteed. You have to win matches to get paid. And then you have to pay your own way. Hello! You pay your airfare. You pay your coach. What do we get at Wimbledon? Two hundred dollars per diem. It doesn't even cover your hotel.

The British are so cheap.

Even here, tennis players do not make great money. If you give lessons, you earn $100 an hour, and you make more money as a teaching pro than as the 50th-best singles tennis player in the world.

You teach? Where can I sign up for a lesson?

No, I don't teach. I have made enough money so that I don't have to work the rest of my life. But I'm still playing. I spend eight or nine months of the year on the road.

Do you find it lonely living out of hotel rooms?

Not really. I have a dog in my life right now, a traveling dog, Chloe, a Chihuahua. And I travel with my own soft pillow. So at least my head is on the same pillow every night of the year.

DA FOREHAND
Aug 26th, 2003, 01:06 PM
She's starting to sound bitter...

Serendy Willick
Aug 26th, 2003, 01:08 PM
Gee, I guess winning every slam and Olympic gold means your not a good doubles player. :rolleyes: Navritalova, go get a fucking life :rolleyes:

DA FOREHAND
Aug 26th, 2003, 01:12 PM
Well didn't you read her explanation? She said because they are so strong they make the "good" dobules players submit.

Cariaoke
Aug 26th, 2003, 01:14 PM
oh ok, so there's only a proper way to play doubles... right... whatever Nav. She's just mad that she lost a tournament while playing with Serena. :tape:

irma
Aug 26th, 2003, 01:15 PM
She's starting to sound bitter...

starting? :confused:

irma
Aug 26th, 2003, 01:16 PM
sorry I could not resist;)

DA FOREHAND
Aug 26th, 2003, 01:20 PM
I understand, but as a former fav. of mine I was trying to cut her some slack, you're right this aint her first helping of sour bitter.

It's sad when she keeps harping on the same thing time and again. I wish I could give her a hug and heal her need for approval from the masses.

irma
Aug 26th, 2003, 01:23 PM
that said I agree with her about the church thing though!

Serendy Willick
Aug 26th, 2003, 01:25 PM
Well didn't you read her explanation? She said because they are so strong they make the "good" dobules players submit.

Leave it to her wrinkly ass and the Williams are the Incredible Hulk of the tennis world :rolleyes:

Joana
Aug 26th, 2003, 01:28 PM
She does sound bitter, but hey is that new? I'm sure Irma knows a bit about it! ;)
But she's right on the Catholic chruch issue IMO.

Infiniti2001
Aug 26th, 2003, 01:30 PM
There was actually disbelief on Serena's face when Paula Zhan mentioned Martina's comments last night on CNN. (maybe it's because she's played doubles with Martina before)-- but she had the perfect response . She said they've won all the doubles slams already, so they have nothing more to prove.

auntie janie
Aug 26th, 2003, 01:33 PM
LOL, everyone looks for something to pick on, then latches on to that one thing like leeches, ignoring the rest. :D

As for me, I am thrilled that Martina is still out there. I always enjoy reading her remarks even when I don't agree with them; it's a lot better than reading the clichés spewed out by most athletes.:p And it's a real shame no clothing company has offered to sponsor her.

Serendy Willick
Aug 26th, 2003, 01:38 PM
LOL, everyone looks for something to pick on, then latches on to that one thing like leeches, ignoring the rest. :D

As for me, I am thrilled that Martina is still out there. I always enjoy reading her remarks even when I don't agree with them; it's a lot better than reading the clichés spewed out by most athletes.:p And it's a real shame no clothing company has offered to sponsor her.

Janie, what if Serena said the same thing about Martina? For example, if Serena said that "Martina is a great singles player but she was not very good on grass" :rolleyes: Thats a slap in the face to Navratilova, who has 9 Wimbeldon titles. IMO she is implying that Venus and Serena arent good doubles players and thus were lucky to win their titles. BULLSHYT. They mustve done something right to win 2 Austrailians, 1 French 2 Wimbeldons and 1 US Open.

Volcana
Aug 26th, 2003, 01:38 PM
The amazing part is how absolutely right she is about so much

"Forty-six is ancient for an athlete. You'd think advertisers would want me because they would be trying to hit the middle-age market. Women my age are the ones who are buying clothes -- they have the money and the kids."

Untapped market! Untapped market! Untapped market!

"... since when has any social issue been pushed forward by popularity, by a majority?"

Certainly slavery would not have ended in the USA in 1865 if it was up to a majority of voters.

"It's how you behave in life, not whether you go to church and pray, that makes you a worthy human being."

"When people say, ''You are going to hell for this,'' I think, let whoever is up there decide."

That's that.

"I would love to play them again. Of course I know I could beat them."

And we wonder where Venus gets that from?

"Venus and Serena are great singles players, but at doubles they are not so great."

If you watched the last Williams 2X vs Suarez-Ruano Pasqual you'd draw the same conclusion. They are certainly better strategic and tactical singles players than they are doubles players.

"The hardest part is getting to that volley, because they hit such hard serves. They are so powerful it is hard to get into a rally with them."

Bear in mind this is the greatest doubles player in history talking. The hardest thing for HER is is getting to the volley, because SHE can handle the sheer absence of time playing the WIlliams sisters involves. Most doubles teams simply can't execute fast enough to beat Venus and Serena. What martina needs is the other martina as a partner.

DA FOREHAND
Aug 26th, 2003, 01:45 PM
"I would love to play them again. Of course I know I could beat them."

And we wonder where Venus gets that from?

I've never heard Venus state such a thing. Quotes and context please.

Martina is bitter because she was never "embraced" the way Chrissy was, yes she's had her moments but nothing up there w/Chris. If Evert made a return to tennis in doubles, she'd have a clothing contract, and Ensure commercials! LOL

Rollo
Aug 26th, 2003, 01:47 PM
I thought the funniest bit was about the British being so cheap because they "only" give players 200 dollars a day.

Cybelle Darkholme
Aug 26th, 2003, 01:49 PM
Well didn't you read her explanation? She said because they are so strong they make the "good" dobules players submit.

so now strength is something to be looked down upon or held against you? :rolleyes: sorry but maybe these other girls should hit the gym. sounds like sour grapes to me.

Infiniti2001
Aug 26th, 2003, 01:52 PM
LOL, everyone looks for something to pick on, then latches on to that one thing like leeches, ignoring the rest. :D

As for me, I am thrilled that Martina is still out there. I always enjoy reading her remarks even when I don't agree with them; it's a lot better than reading the clichés spewed out by most athletes.:p And it's a real shame no clothing company has offered to sponsor her.


And that's your right :D While I think she was/is great-- I also think it's time for her to get a life away from tennis. :tape:

irma
Aug 26th, 2003, 02:02 PM
if nav had a party and she would keep her mouth shut about tennis issues especially about a certain ex-player then I could vote for her;)

bandabou
Aug 26th, 2003, 02:16 PM
The amazing part is how absolutely right she is about so much

"Forty-six is ancient for an athlete. You'd think advertisers would want me because they would be trying to hit the middle-age market. Women my age are the ones who are buying clothes -- they have the money and the kids."

Untapped market! Untapped market! Untapped market!

"... since when has any social issue been pushed forward by popularity, by a majority?"

Certainly slavery would not have ended in the USA in 1865 if it was up to a majority of voters.

"It's how you behave in life, not whether you go to church and pray, that makes you a worthy human being."

"When people say, ''You are going to hell for this,'' I think, let whoever is up there decide."

That's that.

"I would love to play them again. Of course I know I could beat them."

And we wonder where Venus gets that from?

"Venus and Serena are great singles players, but at doubles they are not so great."

If you watched the last Williams 2X vs Suarez-Ruano Pasqual you'd draw the same conclusion. They are certainly better strategic and tactical singles players than they are doubles players.

"The hardest part is getting to that volley, because they hit such hard serves. They are so powerful it is hard to get into a rally with them."

Bear in mind this is the greatest doubles player in history talking. The hardest thing for HER is is getting to the volley, because SHE can handle the sheer absence of time playing the WIlliams sisters involves. Most doubles teams simply can't execute fast enough to beat Venus and Serena. What martina needs is the other martina as a partner.

Non-sense. You play with your strengths.....if Martina isn´t fast or good enough to get to execute the volleys, well what is she talking about?!

You don´t win SIX grandslams( including all four) in doubles if you can´t play. Winning is winning and there isn´t a right way of winning.

TonyP
Aug 26th, 2003, 02:25 PM
As to Martina, she does NOT in my view sound like a very happy camper in this interview, but it is only one interview. But it sounds as if she is a rather lonely woman who, at the age of 46, is still traveling the world on the tennis tour because she has found nothing and no one that keeps her at home. It is almost sad sounding to me.

As to this debate over the Willies, well it will go on forever, because it is the same old debate over whether their size and strength is what separates them from the pack or whether is their brains.

For my money, there are other players equally athletic and equally skilled at tennis, but they lack the Willies size and strength and that is the primary differences. It may not be politically correct to say that, but that's the difference and apparently, that is also the opinion of the greatest woman tennis player in history.

And would Martina have clothing contracts if she were NOT as lesbian? I don't think that has too much to do with it, except with some religious groups. Most of the consuming public could care less about sexual orientation. Being a lesbian for a time didn't kill Ann Heche's movie career.

Martina does not get too many endorsement contracts because they usually go to women who are more attractive and have more outgoing personalities. Sorry, but that's the truth. Most TV commercials do NOT feature celebrities, they feature models picked for their looks or women picked for their personalities. Notice, you don't see a whole slew of Pete Sampras commercials, either. Yesterday's goodbye speech from him should be enough to tell you why.

Commercials are not awarded on the basis of your tennis achievements.

Cybelle Darkholme
Aug 26th, 2003, 03:00 PM
As to Martina, she does NOT in my view sound like a very happy camper in this interview, but it is only one interview. But it sounds as if she is a rather lonely woman who, at the age of 46, is still traveling the world on the tennis tour because she has found nothing and no one that keeps her at home. It is almost sad sounding to me.

As to this debate over the Willies, well it will go on forever, because it is the same old debate over whether their size and strength is what separates them from the pack or whether is their brains.

For my money, there are other players equally athletic and equally skilled at tennis, but they lack the Willies size and strength and that is the primary differences. It may not be politically correct to say that, but that's the difference and apparently, that is also the opinion of the greatest woman tennis player in history.

And would Martina have clothing contracts if she were NOT as lesbian? I don't think that has too much to do with it, except with some religious groups. Most of the consuming public could care less about sexual orientation. Being a lesbian for a time didn't kill Ann Heche's movie career.

Martina does not get too many endorsement contracts because they usually go to women who are more attractive and have more outgoing personalities. Sorry, but that's the truth. Most TV commercials do NOT feature celebrities, they feature models picked for their looks or women picked for their personalities. Notice, you don't see a whole slew of Pete Sampras commercials, either. Yesterday's goodbye speech from him should be enough to tell you why.

Commercials are not awarded on the basis of your tennis achievements.


then how do you explain all the powerful and strong women in tennis who are stuck in the lower rankings? lucic has all sorts of power and strength and look where she is. and how about momo she has muscle and strength and look where she hasnt won a slam. TENNIS IS MENTAL! if you dont have it upstairs you will never be a champion.

Look at justine she is a slip of a girl and yet she generates power! power is not all about muscle its about technique and using what you have the right way.'

you can't take a bodybuilder and put her on the court and think she is going to win a grandslam. its ridiculous to be so narrowed minded in what makes a champion. jennifer has all kinds of power and no one says this crap abou the. monica had at her time all sorts of power and no one said that about her. sorry its racist bullshit. "oh those black atheletes only win because they have muscle." its been said about football players, its been said about basketball players and then it was said about the williams sisters. it really just shows you where people are coming from when the demean your achivements that way.

bandabou
Aug 26th, 2003, 03:06 PM
then how do you explain all the powerful and strong women in tennis who are stuck in the lower rankings? lucic has all sorts of power and strength and look where she is. and how about momo she has muscle and strength and look where she hasnt won a slam. TENNIS IS MENTAL! if you dont have it upstairs you will never be a champion.

Look at justine she is a slip of a girl and yet she generates power! power is not all about muscle its about technique and using what you have the right way.'

you can't take a bodybuilder and put her on the court and think she is going to win a grandslam. its ridiculous to be so narrowed minded in what makes a champion. jennifer has all kinds of power and no one says this crap abou the. monica had at her time all sorts of power and no one said that about her. sorry its racist bullshit. "oh those black atheletes only win because they have muscle." its been said about football players, its been said about basketball players and then it was said about the williams sisters. it really just shows you where people are coming from when the demean your achivements that way.

Word! When Lindsay was winning her slams, it was: "ooh, she has such a good technique" and blah blah. They didn´t see that she was almost a feet taller and was hitting the ball much harder than most of the girls! Venus and Serena start winning, it´s because they hit hard and are strong?! Pluuuzzz!! I don´t see any difference between the games of Lindsay and the sisters!

irma
Aug 26th, 2003, 03:07 PM
"Martina does not get too many endorsement contracts because they usually go to women who are more attractive and have more outgoing personalities."

I can say a lot about nav but saying she is not outgoing is the most ridiculous thing ever :o
nav always speaks her mind, and for sure had no problems to show how she feels

irma
Aug 26th, 2003, 03:08 PM
but when monica was winning people said it was all about powers too and nothing else

Amanda
Aug 26th, 2003, 03:13 PM
Congratulations to Venus and Serena for wining every a grandslam doubles title at Wimbledon, Australian Open, Roland Garros and the US Open. There are not many doubles teams that have accomplished this feat.
I'm sure that many doubles teams would like to have their awesome record!

alfajeffster
Aug 26th, 2003, 03:35 PM
Will someone please tell Martina she is not an attractive girl, and then knock that silly notion right off of her shoulder so she can come back to reality. Seriously- Martina didn't suffer a lack of endorsement and marketing dollars all these years because she's gay- it's because she is not an attractive and marketable image- PERIOD! I respect her for coming out and making a stand, but the fact remains she just isn't Gabriela Sabatini or Gigi Fernandez, her image is good enough to sell to a very small lesbian athlete market, at best. Most women who play tennis at her age think Martina looks like a man. Does it make sense to throw marketing and endorsement dollars her direction?

bandabou
Aug 26th, 2003, 03:35 PM
Congratulations to Venus and Serena for wining every a grandslam doubles title at Wimbledon, Australian Open, Roland Garros and the US Open. There are not many doubles teams that have accomplished this feat.
I'm sure that many doubles teams would like to have their awesome record!

Yep...it gets more impressive when noticing that they only play one or two slams a year. They also have a nice streak going on: every year since ´99 they have won at least one slam every year in doubles and singles! That´s some nice streak....not even Hingis can´t say to have had such a nice streak!

bandabou
Aug 26th, 2003, 03:38 PM
They also must be the only pair of sisters to have dominated the mixed-doubles events at the GS´s in a year. In ´98 they faced each other at ALL GS finals in mixed...they sure most know of few doubles skills.

irma
Aug 26th, 2003, 03:46 PM
but steffi before she trew her body in it(yeah she did that, look at the macaroni pics) she probably wasn't seen as attractive either and still she had many endorsements, but maybe germany/europe was an easier market.

alfajeffster
Aug 26th, 2003, 04:09 PM
but steffi before she trew her body in it(yeah she did that, look at the macaroni pics) she probably wasn't seen as attractive either and still she had many endorsements, but maybe germany/europe was an easier market.

Steffi's body, and particularly, those legs, made her an easy commodity for endorsements. Plus, while she always had that nose- she is easily made up to be very attractive and photogenic. Martina always looks like a horse wearing makeup, no matter how you slice it (pun intended). :lol:

TonyP
Aug 26th, 2003, 04:33 PM
Speaking your mind is NOT the same thing as having an out going personality of the type sponsors usually want in TV commercials.

Martina is right about the age thing, so maybe if she wants endorsements, she should be trying to get vitamin or drug endorsements or the type of thing sponsors target to people in her age group.

But she is not going to get perfume or clothing or make up or hair care product contracts because she just doesn't have the looks or the big smile needed to get them.

Those kind of contracts don't go to Davenport or Seles either and they are both accomplished, straight players.

The Williams sisters have done well in non-tennis related products, but they have a built in audience of about 35 million African-Americans and that is one large audience.

Others in tennis who have done well are Kournilova and Hingis, both of which have made millions because of their looks and physical appeal. They have scored with non-tennis products and it is all about looks and on camera personality, not about sexual preference. They have both pitched, for instance, for Omega watches, because they both have the big smiles that look good in ads.

treufreund
Aug 26th, 2003, 04:40 PM
you all sound bitter.

martina is not bitter. she is pissed about discrimination and materialism. so she has some opinions that are very respectable and dares to say them. she is 100% class!

irma
Aug 26th, 2003, 04:42 PM
I am glad steffi belonged in that list then she was model for gerry weber for a few years and she had a sunglasses deal, deodorant. not sure about make up but I seem to remember that, cars etc

and of course monica had her hair product;)

Infiniti2001
Aug 26th, 2003, 04:48 PM
you all sound bitter.

martina is not bitter. she is pissed about discrimination and materialism. so she has some opinions that are very respectable and dares to say them. she is 100% class!

only trefiend would come up with this response. Did it occur to you and Martina, that the more she bitches/lashes out the further away she drives potential sponsors?? :rolleyes: :tape: :eek:

Ryan
Aug 26th, 2003, 05:34 PM
:rolleyes: Yes V/S have won all the doubles slams. They are good doubles players. They are not your average team though. Why can't Martina say she could beat them? She is a million times better then them in doubles, and knows what it would take to beat them more than anyone else. Are they good doubles strategists? Yes, but they tend to play as two singles players more often then not. Getting to their shots IS the problem for most doubles teams, because they hit so hard. Thats not a criticism or problem. Thats good!

treufreund
Aug 26th, 2003, 05:38 PM
No it does not occur to me because MARTINA is a realist and she knows that it is not her bitching that hurts her. Besides she is not "bitching" she is telling the truth about it. You seem to know nothing about tennis history nor about the discrimination that Martina has faced. she faced 1000 times more discrimination and boos than the Williams and yet today she is ADORED by the fans. Perseverance has won her respect (except for the negative idiots on this board who can say nothing but trash about her and pete sampras too) :rolleyes:

harloo
Aug 26th, 2003, 05:39 PM
I think the fact that she asked Serena to play doubles with her and claim that she and Venus are not good doubles players is hilarious. How are you gonna play with a not so great doubles player Nav? ROTF....

Face it people Nav's time is up. She had her glory days, but now she needs to settle down and find her a broad to live out the rest of her life in peace. LOL

She needs to accept the fact that everyone in the world is not comfortable with a brash lesbian, and just take it for what it is. Some endorsers cater to the gay/lesbian community, and others don't at all.

Give it a rest Nav! I cannot stop laughing at her. What a joke!

alfajeffster
Aug 26th, 2003, 05:42 PM
you all sound bitter.

martina is not bitter. she is pissed about discrimination and materialism. so she has some opinions that are very respectable and dares to say them. she is 100% class!

Bitter? Not me. I'm more of a realist, and I have had the good fortune of having met Martina briefly last year, and I would have to say from observing her behavior for the 2 days she was in town for an exhibition, she has a great big chip on her shoulder, and like so many professional athletes before her, she is surrounded by her own coterie of people who whisper only what she wants to hear. In many respects she is living in a glass bubble that quite often has no bearing on reality. Truth is, she is not attractive. I challenge you to name one other unattractive professional athlete who has been lucky with endorsements. Spuds Mackenzie is the only one on the list. Endorsements are marketed with attractive people, and their point IS materialism. Martina is bitter because she missed out on all that money. For her to sit there time and again and suggest that it's because she is gay that she has been passed over for endorsements is ridiculous. 'Taint true, Martina!

Infiniti2001
Aug 26th, 2003, 05:42 PM
No it does not occur to me because MARTINA is a realist and she knows that it is not her bitching that hurts her. Besides she is not "bitching" she is telling the truth about it. You seem to know nothing about tennis history nor about the discrimination that Martina has faced. she faced 1000 times more discrimination and boos than the Williams and yet today she is ADORED by the fans. Perseverance has won her respect (except for the negative idiots on this board who can say nothing but trash about her and pete sampras too) :rolleyes:

Well cry me a friggin river :sad: :sad: :tape:

DA FOREHAND
Aug 26th, 2003, 05:44 PM
"she faced 1000 times more discrimination and boos than the Williams '

No player had ever had to face the crowd Serena had to face at I.Wells.

Infiniti2001
Aug 26th, 2003, 05:47 PM
I think the fact that she asked Serena to play doubles with her and claim that she and Venus are not good doubles players is hilarious. How are you gonna play with a not so great doubles player Nav? ROTF....

Face it people Nav's time is up. She had her glory days, but now she needs to settle down and find her a broad to live out the rest of her life in peace. LOL

She needs to accept the fact that everyone in the world is not comfortable with a brash lesbian, and just take it for what it is. Some endorsers cater to the gay/lesbian community, and others don't at all.

Give it a rest Nav! I cannot stop laughing at her. What a joke!

I couldn't have said it any better!! Actually , I would have been a bit harsher, but for the sake of board unity/peace I took the high road :tape:

harloo
Aug 26th, 2003, 05:47 PM
There was actually disbelief on Serena's face when Paula Zhan mentioned Martina's comments last night on CNN. (maybe it's because she's played doubles with Martina before)-- but she had the perfect response . She said they've won all the doubles slams already, so they have nothing more to prove.

I imagine so. Serena was probably shocked because she went against the sisters only playing with each other. She also trusted Nav, and thought that they had some type of friendship.

I knew Nav was a fake when I read her nasty comments about Venus and Serena having no respect for the game, because they were taking classes. And I was suprised when Serena decided to play doubles with her, but I figured Serena is more open and she gives people a chance. L

I think Nav has split personalities like Cybil. Or maybe she is just going through menopause. ROTF... Who knows?

alfajeffster
Aug 26th, 2003, 05:53 PM
I imagine so. Serena was probably shocked because she went against the sisters only playing with each other. She also trusted Nav, and thought that

I knew Nav was a fake when I read her nasty comments about Venus and Serena having no respect for the game, because they were taking classes. And I was suprised when Serena decided to play doubles with her, but I figured Serena is more open and she gives people a chance. L

I think Nav has split personalities like Cybil. Or maybe she is just going through menopause. ROTF... Who knows?

There's a long list of players who have rejected Martina Navratilova's requests to play doubles in the last 10 years. Rest assured it wasn't Serena who did the asking.

alfajeffster
Aug 26th, 2003, 06:05 PM
All that said- I think Martina is right on point regarding her assessment of the Williams Sisters doubles game. With the right partner, Martina and, let's say Lindsay Davenport or Lisa Raymond, or Natasha Zvereva (can you imagine?)- Navratilova could beat the Williams Sisters at doubles.

irma
Aug 26th, 2003, 06:14 PM
maybe 20 or even 10 years ago but it's a different time. still no matter how you look at it what she did this year is amazing anyway. I hope she realizes that and can enjoy it otherwise she will never be satisfied and always haunting for impossible things

Infiniti2001
Aug 26th, 2003, 06:25 PM
Hi bajangurl:wavey:

bandabou
Aug 26th, 2003, 06:25 PM
All that said- I think Martina is right on point regarding her assessment of the Williams Sisters doubles game. With the right partner, Martina and, let's say Lindsay Davenport or Lisa Raymond, or Natasha Zvereva (can you imagine?)- Navratilova could beat the Williams Sisters at doubles.


Well she knows where to find them,no?! why walk around talking and stuff.....prove it on court. As of now, Serena and Venus have defeated her twice at different GS´s and with her playing with different partners.

hingis-seles
Aug 26th, 2003, 06:29 PM
"she faced 1000 times more discrimination and boos than the Williams '

No player had ever had to face the crowd Serena had to face at I.Wells.

1999. Martina Hingis. Roland Garros.

Infiniti2001
Aug 26th, 2003, 06:35 PM
1999. Martina Hingis. Roland Garros.

Was Martina booed from the time she stepped on the court , during the entire match , and the prize giving ceremony?

alfajeffster
Aug 26th, 2003, 06:39 PM
Well she knows where to find them,no?! why walk around talking and stuff.....prove it on court. As of now, Serena and Venus have defeated her twice at different GS´s and with her playing with different partners.

And who were Martina's partners? This leads us back to the trouble with top players and doubles. They just don't play that much, and I'd even go as far as to say they tank doubles matches mid-way through a tournament if they are still in the singles draw with a chance. I can't recall Martina ever doing this throughout her career. It's a shame the top players don't use doubles as a means to get better!

Serendy Willick
Aug 26th, 2003, 06:41 PM
:rolleyes: Yes V/S have won all the doubles slams. They are good doubles players. They are not your average team though. Why can't Martina say she could beat them? She is a million times better then them in doubles, and knows what it would take to beat them more than anyone else. Are they good doubles strategists? Yes, but they tend to play as two singles players more often then not. Getting to their shots IS the problem for most doubles teams, because they hit so hard. Thats not a criticism or problem. Thats good!


And what in the hell does your average team consist? :rolleyes: So because they dont follow the "Martina Navratilova textbook of playing doubles" that means they are not great doubles players? :rolleyes: Her and Johnny Stankenmac get on my very nerves trying to convince the world and force their style of play on everyone. These different styles and types of plays is what makes the tours so unique. If the serve and volley plays worked for them, fine, thats great, but dont shove it down peoples throats like its the holly grail of fucking tennis. :mad:

bandabou
Aug 26th, 2003, 06:48 PM
And who were Martina's partners? This leads us back to the trouble with top players and doubles. They just don't play that much, and I'd even go as far as to say they tank doubles matches mid-way through a tournament if they are still in the singles draw with a chance. I can't recall Martina ever doing this throughout her career. It's a shame the top players don't use doubles as a means to get better!

I thought that Marina was the greatest doubles player and that it didn´t matter who she played with?! Wasn´t the critisism that the sisters only win because they play with each other?!

About the tanking....Serena won both the singles and doubles event at a GS three times: ´99 U.S. open, ´02 Wimbledon and ´03 Oz open....and Venus did it at the ´02 Wimbledon. Not that many thank jobs...

bandabou
Aug 26th, 2003, 06:49 PM
And what in the hell does your average team consist? :rolleyes: So because they dont follow the "Martina Navratilova textbook of playing doubles" that means they are not great doubles players? :rolleyes: Her and Johnny Stankenmac get on my very nerves trying to convince the world and force their style of play on everyone. These types of things is what makes the tours so unique. If the serve and volley plays worked for them, fine, thats great, but dont shove it down peoples throats like its the holly grail of fucking tennis. :mad:

Exactly! They drool about Agassi´s baseline play and bash the sisters when they play the same style!!

Serendy Willick
Aug 26th, 2003, 06:49 PM
I thought that Marina was the greatest doubles player and that it didn´t matter who she played with?! Wasn´t the critisism that the sisters only win because they play with each other?!

About the tanking....Serena won both the singles and doubles event at a GS three times: ´99 U.S. open, ´02 Wimbledon and ´03 Oz open....and Venus did it at the ´02 Wimbledon. Not that many thank jobs...

And also won the doubles title when they were both out of the tournement (Aus Open 01)

bandabou
Aug 26th, 2003, 06:51 PM
And also won the doubles title when they were both out of the tournement (Aus Open 01)

Thank you very much! This was after Venus suffered her worst play defeat in the semi´s!

Cariaoke
Aug 26th, 2003, 06:51 PM
spot on @ the FOUR previous posts.

it irritates me. pretty soon V/S will be criticized for eating. 'What about all the starving children around the world? Those Williams sisters are selfish!' It never ends so I'll just :rolleyes: and move the fuck on. :D

TonyP
Aug 26th, 2003, 06:51 PM
She is pissed about materialism?

Why does she want to do commercials? She wants commercials so she can make more money. How is she any less materialistic than anyone else?

alfajeffster
Aug 26th, 2003, 06:56 PM
I thought that Marina was the greatest doubles player and that it didn´t matter who she played with?! Wasn´t the critisism that the sisters only win because they play with each other?!

About the tanking....Serena won both the singles and doubles event at a GS three times: ´99 U.S. open, ´02 Wimbledon and ´03 Oz open....and Venus did it at the ´02 Wimbledon. Not that many thank jobs...

Actually, you never read me saying Martina was the greatest doubles player. She is one of the best ever, but I tend to give a lot more credence to Billie Jean King and Margaret Osborne duPont in the doubles arena. Billie Jean King was a better volleyer than Martina, and a much smarter player- hands down, actually. I have nothing but respect for what the Williams sisters accomplished in doubles. I just wish they would play more often. At Martina's age, she would need a very strong partner to beat the Williams sisters at their age- but it could be done!

Amanda
Aug 26th, 2003, 06:58 PM
Didn't Martina play a doubles match with Serena? Her comments are without merit. If Venus and Serena are not good doubles players and still manage to win the grandslam doubles titles, the other teams must be very pathetic.

irma
Aug 26th, 2003, 06:58 PM
yeah bjk was better then nav since she beat a 23 year old nav at 36;) j/k

alfajeffster
Aug 26th, 2003, 07:12 PM
Didn't Martina play a doubles match with Serena? Her comments are without merit. If Venus and Serena are not good doubles players and still manage to win the grandslam doubles titles, the other teams must be very pathetic.

The other teams are pretty pathetic. It's okay to criticize the Williams sisters every now and then- nobody is perfect out there, and doubles is one area where they can stand some improvement. I don't think Martina was too harsh on them- pretty realistic assessment if you read what she actually said about their doubles game.

Amanda
Aug 26th, 2003, 07:19 PM
Yes, but do you really think she is saying the other teams are pathetic including herself? A stab at Venus and Serena seems more like it. I don't understand how you can win the biggest doubles title in tennis and not be considered good. Just a wierd comment from Martina.

irma
Aug 26th, 2003, 07:19 PM
I think that steffi and sabatini might have won a french open titles these days :p

bandabou
Aug 26th, 2003, 07:25 PM
Actually, you never read me saying Martina was the greatest doubles player. She is one of the best ever, but I tend to give a lot more credence to Billie Jean King and Margaret Osborne duPont in the doubles arena. Billie Jean King was a better volleyer than Martina, and a much smarter player- hands down, actually. I have nothing but respect for what the Williams sisters accomplished in doubles. I just wish they would play more often. At Martina's age, she would need a very strong partner to beat the Williams sisters at their age- but it could be done!

well then find one and do the talking on the court....do you Serena ever talking about other players in the press?!

TonyP
Aug 26th, 2003, 07:28 PM
Alfa:

I don't think its a complete either/or situation. I am sure that some companies probably didn't want her because she was a lesbian, but lots of others wouldn't care.

If she looked like Kournikova or Sharapova or Sabatini and was openly gay, it would be a whole different story. She would still have some problems, but she WOULD get endorsement contracts. In fact, many would be intrigued. But her buffed appearance would not work for many sponsors even if she were straight.

She simply is not a very feminine looking and that hurts her.

Many gays and perhaps some others want to make this a discussion about discrimination and nothing else. But they refuse to deal with the question of why Seles and Davenport have not received many endorsements. The fact is, neither is attrative and endorsements are not given out on tennis prowess, except when the products involved are tennis products.

alfajeffster
Aug 26th, 2003, 07:31 PM
well then find one and do the talking on the court....do you Serena ever talking about other players in the press?!

Serena Williams is my favorite player on the women's tour, although I have always liked the Justine Henin-Hardenne backhand. No, I haven't noticed Serena talking about other players that much, but I don't think Martina said anything negative or derogatory about the Williams Sisters. I have heard MN say very complimentary things about Serena- to the effect that she can stay at the top as long as she wants to- so you see, it's not that bad now, is it?

irma
Aug 26th, 2003, 07:32 PM
but monica received endorsements enough when she was on top. what is the news that she didn't?

alfajeffster
Aug 26th, 2003, 07:34 PM
Alfa:

I don't think its a complete either/or situation. I am sure that some companies probably didn't want her because she was a lesbian, but lots of others wouldn't care.

If she looked like Kournikova or Sharapova or Sabatini and was openly gay, it would be a whole different story. She would still have some problems, but she WOULD get endorsement contracts. In fact, many would be intrigued. But her buffed appearance would not work for many sponsors even if she were straight.

She simply is not a very feminine looking and that hurts her.

Many gays and perhaps some others want to make this a discussion about discrimination and nothing else. But they refuse to deal with the question of why Seles and Davenport have not received many endorsements. The fact is, neither is attrative and endorsements are not given out on tennis prowess, except when the products involved are tennis products.

I couldn't agree with you more TP- Gigi Fernandez was an out-of-the-closet lesbian on the tour for years- and by most accounts, VERY attractive, and in fact got more endorsements that Martina. If Martina had looked like Gigi- imagine the endorsements that would have been heaped in her direction. What I don't get is why she keeps harping on it every other year, it seems we have this same conversation- and nobody has the balls to come out (pun intended) and say, Dear Martina, you are not an attractive person!

irma
Aug 26th, 2003, 07:35 PM
not sure about Lindsay but she never had that really dominating the sport ala monica in the early ninties or steffi at the end of the eighties

nav had and still she had no endorsements

and sure I can't see nav or lindsay in small black dresses like steffi in the macaroni spot or in bikini like the sport illustrated but then when I see steffi in 86 or even 88 then I had not believed that either;)

alfajeffster
Aug 26th, 2003, 07:37 PM
not sure about Lindsay but she never had that really dominating the sport ala monica in the early ninties or steffi at the end of the eighties

nav had and still she had no endorsements

and sure I can't see nav or lindsay in small black dresses like steffi in the macaroni spot or in bikini like the sport illustrated but then when I see steffi in 86 or even 88 then I had not believed that either;)

"Meanwhile all the girls in the locker room are drooling over her legs."- Martina Navratilova on Steffi Graf

irma
Aug 26th, 2003, 07:37 PM
what about asv?

irma
Aug 26th, 2003, 07:38 PM
yeah we know what nav's biggest wish was considering steffi, but that's a different story;)

raquel
Aug 26th, 2003, 07:39 PM
They also must be the only pair of sisters to have dominated the mixed-doubles events at the GS´s in a year. In ´98 they faced each other at ALL GS finals in mixed...they sure most know of few doubles skills.
That's actually not true, they only played against each other in the French Open final of 1998. However their doubles skill is not in doubt.

Knizzle
Aug 26th, 2003, 07:49 PM
I thought that Marina was the greatest doubles player and that it didn´t matter who she played with?! Wasn´t the critisism that the sisters only win because they play with each other?!

About the tanking....Serena won both the singles and doubles event at a GS three times: ´99 U.S. open, ´02 Wimbledon and ´03 Oz open....and Venus did it at the ´02 Wimbledon. Not that many thank jobs...

Venus did it at Wimbledon '00 also. So 5 out of 6 times V and S won a GS in doubles, one of them also won in singles.

bandabou
Aug 26th, 2003, 08:01 PM
Serena Williams is my favorite player on the women's tour, although I have always liked the Justine Henin-Hardenne backhand. No, I haven't noticed Serena talking about other players that much, but I don't think Martina said anything negative or derogatory about the Williams Sisters. I have heard MN say very complimentary things about Serena- to the effect that she can stay at the top as long as she wants to- so you see, it's not that bad now, is it?

It was about making statements like: " I´m better or I would them." that I´m talking about. Those aren´t things to say out of the court.

Knizzle
Aug 26th, 2003, 08:02 PM
V and S aren't a traditional doubles team. They are not traditional singles players, they probably will never be traditional in anything they do in tennis. They do things differently. No, they don't have the best volleys, yes sometimes they play like two singles players on the court(not all the time though), but the object of the game is to win, and win they play doubles at the slams they usually do that better than any other doubles team. Martina says she and her partner have trouble with V and S's shots, well that's their fault because obviously Martina and her partner don't have the tools to compete with the WS, and therefore the WS doubles team is better than Martina's. I'm sick of hearing people on this board saying that other players are more skilled and talented than the WS, but lack the size and strength. Well those players need to get their lazy behinds in the gym and get themselves into tip-top shape and then comeback and try to compete. They don't respect how hard the WS worked to get where they are now. Somehow they think the WS were just born in the physical condition they are now. If the WS didn't have skill they wouldn't be able to place any balls in the court along with hitting with that much power. Like Martina said herself, the reason the WS get backlash is because of racism.

irma
Aug 26th, 2003, 08:06 PM
it's true though. there is a video of 2 year old serena kicking the then number 1's (guess who that was) butt;)

bandabou
Aug 26th, 2003, 08:06 PM
V and S aren't a traditional doubles team. They are not traditional singles players, they probably will never be traditional in anything they do in tennis. They do things differently. No, they don't have the best volleys, yes sometimes they play like two singles players on the court(not all the time though), but the object of the game is to win, and win they play doubles at the slams they usually do that better than any other doubles team. Martina says she and her partner have trouble with V and S's shots, well that's their fault because obviously Martina and her partner don't have the tools to compete with the WS, and therefore the WS doubles team is better than Martina's. I'm sick of hearing people on this board saying that other players are more skilled and talented than the WS, but lack the size and strength. Well those players need to get their lazy behinds in the gym and get themselves into tip-top shape and then comeback and try to compete. They don't respect how hard the WS worked to get where they are now. Somehow they think the WS were just born in the physical condition they are now. If the WS didn't have skill they wouldn't be able to place any balls in the court along with hitting with that much power. Like Martina said herself, the reason the WS get backlash is because of racism.


Very well said! Just because they don´t play the traditional way doesn´t make them any less good!

alfajeffster
Aug 26th, 2003, 08:08 PM
I wonder what Jimmy the Greek would say... :lol:

Knizzle
Aug 26th, 2003, 08:17 PM
I wonder what Jimmy the Greek would say... :lol:

:lol: :lol: :lol: