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Volcana
Aug 20th, 2003, 04:29 AM
Well, first of all, we should be so lucky, since that would to be a semi or the final, with at least the potential for very high quality tennis.

Venus Williams - hard court record, US Open record, good w/o tuneups, x out of y GS finals, yada, yada, yada

Justine Henin-Hardenne - Won first slam, won Toronto, yada, yada, yada

Head-to-Head, yada, yada, yada

You can fill that stuff in from other threads.

Venus will play Justine the way she usually plays Justine, cause it's worked.

What can/will Justine change in order to defeat/attempt-to-defeat Venus?

My fellow Williams fans, please try not to chime in with a depressing chorus of 'it's hopeless'. Justine has obviously raised the level of her game. She's also always had greater success against Venus Serena than Serena Venus, for whatever reason. What do you think she'll try against Venus if we luck out and such a match takes place? Say for the US Open title?

Cybelle Darkholme
Aug 20th, 2003, 04:39 AM
Greater success against venus? I beg to differ.

Venus WILLIAMS (USA) v Justine HENIN-HARDENNE (BEL)

2001 Berlin Clay (O) 16 Justine HENIN-HARDENNE 1-6 4-6
2001 Wimbledon Grass (O) FR Venus WILLIAMS 6-1 3-6 6-0
2001 New Haven Hard (O) QF Venus WILLIAMS 6-3 5-7 6-2
2001 Gold Coast Hard (O) FR Venus WILLIAMS 7-5 6-2
2002 Antwerp Carpet (I) FR Venus WILLIAMS 6-3 5-7 6-3
2002 Amelia Island Clay (O) FR Venus WILLIAMS 2-6 7-5 7-6(5)
2002 Wimbledon Grass (O) SF Venus WILLIAMS 6-3 6-2
2003 Australian Open Hard (O) SF Venus WILLIAMS 6-3 6-3

Venus WILLIAMS (USA) leads 7 : 1

Serena WILLIAMS (USA) v Justine HENIN-HARDENNE (BEL)

2001 U.S. Open Hard (O) 16 Serena WILLIAMS 7-5 6-0
2001 W.T.A. Tour Championships Hard (I) QF Serena WILLIAMS 6-3 7-6(5)
2002 Berlin Clay (O) FR Justine HENIN-HARDENNE 2-6 6-1 6-7(5)
2002 Rome Clay (O) FR Serena WILLIAMS 7-6(6) 6-4
2002 Leipzig Carpet (I) SF Serena WILLIAMS 6-4 6-2
2003 Charleston Clay (O) FR Justine HENIN-HARDENNE 3-6 4-6
2003 French Open Clay (O) SF Justine HENIN-HARDENNE 2-6 6-4 5-7
2003 Wimbledon Grass (O) SF Serena WILLIAMS 6-3 6-2

Serena WILLIAMS (USA) leads 5 : 3

Justines only win came on clay at their first ever meeting. Hopefully venus is fit and healthy and ready to reclaim her open title and dispense of her peers on the tour. I think justine should pray venus is still injured.

Knizzle
Aug 20th, 2003, 04:39 AM
Well, first of all, we should be so lucky, since that would to be a semi or the final, with at least the potential for very high quality tennis.

Venus Williams - hard court record, US Open record, good w/o tuneups, x out of y GS finals, yada, yada, yada

Justine Henin-Hardenne - Won first slam, won Toronto, yada, yada, yada

Head-to-Head, yada, yada, yada

You can fill that stuff in from other threads.

Venus will play Justine the way she usually plays Justine, cause it's worked.

What can/will Justine change in order to defeat/attempt-to-defeat Venus?

My fellow Williams fans, please try not to chime in with a depressing chorus of 'it's hopeless'. Justine has obviously raised the level of her game. She's also always had greater success against Venus than Serena, for whatever reason. What do you think she'll try against Venus if we luck out and such a match takes place? Say for the US Open title?

She should try to take the ball early, and hit all the forehands she can because Venus is going to try and break her backhand down. She has to serve well, she shouldn't serve out wide to Venus too often on either side because Venus likes those returns. Try to hit higher topspin balls to Venus' forehand to try and get a short ball or and error. Attack the net whenever possible. Don't stay on the baseline because that is a losing battle. Most of all try not to be intimidated by Venus' presence.

alexusjonesfan
Aug 20th, 2003, 04:42 AM
Attack the net whenever possible. Don't stay on the baseline because that is a losing battle. Most of all try not to be intimidated by Venus' presence.

completely agree! I've seen Justine try to outslug Venus from the baseline and the result ain't pretty. Actually, the things you've suggested remind me a lot of what Martina used to do against Venus in their classic matches ;)

Leo_DFP
Aug 20th, 2003, 04:51 AM
Is Venus going to play the US Open? I sure hope so.

shap_half
Aug 20th, 2003, 05:27 AM
Well first, she should implement the same strategy she did with Serena - exploit their weaknesses. For example, with Serena she took off all rythm and changed up the pace of the rallies, she served to the body of Serena, and she took her chances. That is what Justine should also do to Venus. She should serve to Venus's body because Venus is taller and she has better reach serving to the body everynow and again and switching up her service trends, will hopefully catch Venus off and either illicit the error or Justine should go to net and just end the point there.

Volcana
Aug 20th, 2003, 06:35 AM
Greater success against venus? I beg to differ.


I knew that. :) Sorry! Adult Onset Dyslexia strikes again.:)

BasicTennis
Aug 20th, 2003, 06:36 AM
It would be very difficult now for Venus to topple Justine if she's not 100% a the US Open.

darrinbaker00
Aug 20th, 2003, 06:52 AM
If Venus is completely healthy, and I believe she will be, there are really only two things Justine can do: NOTHING AND LIKE IT!! :lol:

But seriously, folks.....we all know that Venus' two weaknesses are her forehand and her second serve, so the Big Babe Slayer's best strategy would be to exploit those areas as much as possible. If Venus has her forehand working and gets her first serve in regularly, however, it's au revoir, Mme. Hardenne. ;)

LucasArg
Aug 20th, 2003, 07:01 AM
They know each other very well, I am positive Venus will win the match if she plays.

Come on Venus, I miss you!!!! :bounce:

Hingiswinsthis
Aug 20th, 2003, 07:50 AM
maybe Justine should watch the way Mauresmo played Venus in the semis last year when it was oh so close :eek:! Amelie attacked whenever possible and came to net. What did her in were those two or three errors in the 3rd set that is a NO NO if ur going to upset Venus. IMO Justine is stronger mentally than the soft-spoken French woman this year if Justine and Venus get into that sticky 3rd set. The tournament hasn't even started and we're already talking about this as the match of the tournament;)

DA FOREHAND
Aug 20th, 2003, 07:55 AM
"Well first, she should implement the same strategy she did with Serena - exploit their weaknesses. For example, with Serena she took off all rythm and changed up the pace of the rallies, she served to the body of Serena, and she took her chances. That is what Justine should also do to Venus. "

Losing strategy...Venus plays junk ballers very well, if Lindsay can't jam Venus successfully justine certainly can't.

justine will have to mix it up play Venus' forehand and hope it's a little off. Come to net often but only on good approaches, AVOID DA BACKHAND! Light some candles. "The Hand and The Bandage" won't put Venus off, only make her more determined to kick your ass!

fleemkeģ
Aug 20th, 2003, 10:40 AM
Justine has to play very agressive, coming into the net often. When Venus is controling the rally she has to bring all the balls back time after time. Her serve is also imortant off course.

Don't know imo Venus is the favorite but Justine has improved a lot last months .. don't know how this changing is goining to effect Venus her game.

I'll hope to find out soon and I'm sure it could be a good match :)

Jen'sFan
Aug 20th, 2003, 11:33 AM
she believes she can beat serena and if she believes that then there's no reason why she cant beat venus

BasicTennis
Aug 20th, 2003, 11:39 AM
I really can't wait for this semis encounter.;)

doloresc
Aug 20th, 2003, 12:11 PM
What can/will Justine change in order to defeat/attempt-to-defeat Venus?

What do you think she'll try against Venus if we luck out and such a match takes place? Say for the US Open title?

henin-hardenne has a variety of shots in her arsenal. i think she'll play venus the same way she plays serena: mixing up the pace to give venus no rhythm. henin-hardenne's advantage is that she can do all that to disrupt venus' rhythm and it won't affect her own because she plays that way most of the time.

i hope venus plays the open and i hope she meets henin-hardenne in the final.

DunkMachine
Aug 20th, 2003, 12:26 PM
Actually I don't think changing the pace will help against Venus. I've noticed that Venus has become much more focused and patient during rallies. Or maybe it's the result of her injury of that impeded her movement but it also made sure her returns were never overhit.

I don't think Henin has the game to beat Venus at the moment. It should be an interesting match though.

Shuji Shuriken
Aug 20th, 2003, 01:10 PM
she believes she can beat serena and if she believes that then there's no reason why she cant beat venus
There is no correlation between that belief and reality. For example...some people that give Serena a hard time, Venus beats them easily and vice-versa :). So using one strategy against Serena doesn't mean the same will work with Venus.

bandabou
Aug 20th, 2003, 01:13 PM
henin-hardenne has a variety of shots in her arsenal. i think she'll play venus the same way she plays serena: mixing up the pace to give venus no rhythm. henin-hardenne's advantage is that she can do all that to disrupt venus' rhythm and it won't affect her own because she plays that way most of the time.

i hope venus plays the open and i hope she meets henin-hardenne in the final.

That works against impatient and agressive players....Venus ainīt none of those things. She can rally with you all day and let you go for too much. Ask Kim! I donī t think Justineīs game can beat Venus on hardcourts.

hinquit
Aug 20th, 2003, 01:34 PM
There is nothing new Henin can do against Venus. These two played
8 times already. The only thing she can do is to wish that Venus is not
healthy and may not play the US Open

rottweily
Aug 20th, 2003, 01:46 PM
Ah well we'll see which new answers new Justine has, IF they meet at the US Open.
Now it's just stupid thread filling.

Diya
Aug 20th, 2003, 01:51 PM
The Justine of today knows how to win against any damn player on the WTA.I think she'll figure Venus out in no time ....the key being to let Venus self-destruct

Infiniti2001
Aug 20th, 2003, 01:53 PM
There is no correlation between that belief and reality. For example...some people that give Serena a hard time, Venus beats them easily and vice-versa :). So using one strategy against Serena doesn't mean the same will work with Venus.


This says it all :p

Infiniti2001
Aug 20th, 2003, 01:55 PM
The Justine of today knows how to win against any damn player on the WTA.I think she'll figure Venus out in no time ....the key being to let Venus self-destruct

That shit don't work anymore-- ask Lindsay and Kim.

rottweily
Aug 20th, 2003, 02:01 PM
That shit don't work anymore-- ask Lindsay and Kim.

Kim had it, but choked. Period.

Infiniti2001
Aug 20th, 2003, 02:06 PM
Kim had it, but choked. Period.

If that's the way you saw it-- meanwhile I think things started going Venus's way once she stopped giving free points. :tape:

per4ever
Aug 20th, 2003, 02:07 PM
There is nothing new Henin can do against Venus. These two played
8 times already. The only thing she can do is to wish that Venus is not
healthy and may not play the US Open
oh boy, be glad you're no pro player. You would give up before it is played.

Whether you like it or not (probably not), Justine is a topplayer who improved A LOT this year. She was good during the AO, but the Justine now is a different player. She won a slam, has the confidence, overwon her choking in matches against Kim,... Venus will meet a different player then in Australia.

People who say she has no chance against a healthy venus are seriously underestimating Justine imo (but that happens all the time anyway). All topplayers are able to beat eachother.

venusfan
Aug 20th, 2003, 02:21 PM
so many experts in this thread I guess I need to join in..anyway, Venus is rusty.. if and I hope she makes it into the 2nd week, she will regain her form and then I hope she starts smoking away to competition. I could care less who Venus faces at the US Open, if she's healthy she will win the entire thing. This is the US Open hardcourt, not some silly red clay court.

Ryan
Aug 20th, 2003, 04:22 PM
Ugh, another thread plagued by morons who can only contribute "she can't beat Venus". :rolleyes:


Justine beating Venus is a toss-up, depending on how each play and if Venus is healthy. Justine's serve has improved so much lately, and I believe she can put Venus on the defensive with it. Justine's high-topspin strokes wont do her any good most of the time against Venus, so she needs to hit hard forehands to Venus' forehand, and only go to her backhand if there's an open court or if she's trying to "change things up".

skanky~skanketta
Aug 20th, 2003, 04:26 PM
go justine!

franny
Aug 20th, 2003, 10:21 PM
I doubt Venus will beat Justine here. No offense to Venus, but she hasn't played since Wimbledon. She may not need much match play but this is ZERO match play. Plus she's not going to play anyone at Justine's level until they meet in the Semis(No, Capriati is not at Justine's level). Justine is hitting the ball hard, mixing it up, hitting her serves well. She is playing at the very top of her game and Venus, well lets admit it, she isn't. It is no longer so easy to overpower Justine, she hits the ball hard without making errors. You really have to play near perfect like Serena did at Wimbledon to beat Justine now.

Cybelle Darkholme
Aug 20th, 2003, 10:26 PM
Go Venus!!! Take This Title!!!

villa
Aug 20th, 2003, 10:32 PM
Justine can be overpowered franny! look at her matches in toronto against dementieva and on a lesser not lina- she beat those players because when justine was in adefensive position she would always have that one more horrible short slice shot back in court and russians didn't have the stamina to hit another good shot and would usually mess up or let justine back into the rally- venus does have that one more brilliant shot if she's fit...
I know justines imrpoved since aus but unless she's hitting her groundstokes and serve twice as hard or running faster she's not going to outplay a venus who's fit and playing well on a hard court....
people are making way too much out of henins summer tournament wins- she only beat 1 top10 player in her wins ina acura and toronto- cljesters in the final of acura- damn that aint impressive- i know she can beat only beat however faces across a net but those wins are no reason for venus to be afraid of henin or for people to suggest that henin has reached a new level on hardcourts...

Knizzle
Aug 20th, 2003, 10:32 PM
I doubt Venus will beat Justine here. No offense to Venus, but she hasn't played since Wimbledon. She may not need much match play but this is ZERO match play. Plus she's not going to play anyone at Justine's level until they meet in the Semis(No, Capriati is not at Justine's level). Justine is hitting the ball hard, mixing it up, hitting her serves well. She is playing at the very top of her game and Venus, well lets admit it, she isn't. It is no longer so easy to overpower Justine, she hits the ball hard without making errors. You really have to play near perfect like Serena did at Wimbledon to beat Justine now.

Didn't Venus make the final of the AO this year with no match practice?? Who did she beat in the semifinals there?? Wasn't Venus in the final of Wimbledon. She was sure playing some excellent tennis there. Venus knows Juju well. Venus should win in straight sets if Venus plays well. Juju's backhand will still be picked on and overpowered by Venus. People underestimate Venus' tactical game. She has a gameplan for every player on tour.

Keith
Aug 20th, 2003, 10:33 PM
IF Venus loses, I think this thread will be bumped up.

Diya
Aug 20th, 2003, 10:35 PM
If you think the Juju of Jan is the same as the Juju of today then ya sadly mistaken . Juju in the early part of the year was losing badly to Kim but now has beaten her many times in a row(discounting the match she had to retire from due to injury). The same could happen with Venus

Knizzle
Aug 20th, 2003, 10:42 PM
Another thing that seems to be forgotten about Venus is her first serve. If she serves higher than 60% Juju is out the door. Sad, but true. We need to look at reality. There is a reason Venus is 7-1 against this girl. Clijsters improved alot from the beginning of the year too, but look what happened at Wimbledon. Justine's biggest improvement has been her mental toughness, but this is Venus, a player Justine is in awe of. Justine hasn't had to deal with Venus most of this year. You won't hear Juju talking about Venus like she does Serena. She sees no weakness in Venus because Venus shows no emotion on the court, just focus. Venus is a better player now also. She was magnificent at Wimby. Her game hasn't stayed stagnant while others have improved. Venus will also be very upset with Juju because of what happened between her and Serena at the French. Venus will focus that energy into beating Juju into the ground. Venus doesn't like to lose to someone who has just beaten Serena, and the hand incident only makes it worse for Juju.

Keith
Aug 20th, 2003, 10:43 PM
If you think the Juju of Jan is the same as the Juju of today then ya sadly mistaken . Juju in the early part of the year was losing badly to Kim but now has beaten her many times in a row(discounting the match she had to retire from due to injury). The same could happen with Venus

Very true! The fact is that Justine has improved A LOT in the past 6 months. That isn't to say that Venus will be unable to beat her, but one realistically should consider that a Justine and Venus match could be very competitive and a more difficult match for Venus than it used to be.

G-Ha
Aug 20th, 2003, 10:48 PM
Justine will need to do what Meghann Shaughnessy does to Venus on hardcourts: break down the forehand, attack the second serve and take care of her own serve. A pretty tall order, but not impossible.

Simply sitting on the baseline and trying to outhit Venus without any real game plan will not work. And I would hope Justine would know this by now...

Hendouble
Aug 20th, 2003, 10:49 PM
IF Venus loses, I think this thread will be bumped up.

Hell, if Venus loses at ANY stage of the tournament I'm going to bump up every single thread started by her fans confidently predicting that the title would be hers and laugh in their faces. And if she does win the whole thing, well, I will only ask the question: what kind of women's tour is this when threads discussing a match-up between two Top 5 players can consist only of people bleating repetitively "Player X can't beat Venus"? They may well be right, but what on earth does that say about the depth in the game?

Diya
Aug 20th, 2003, 10:51 PM
...... Justine's biggest improvement has been her mental toughness, but this is Venus, a player Justine is in awe of.


Justine herself said that she couldn't play her best tennis against Kim because she was in awe of her but NOW she has overcome that.....I think she could do the same against Venus .I mean why not ?

"Topaz"
Aug 20th, 2003, 11:10 PM
Hell, if Venus loses at ANY stage of the tournament I'm going to bump up every single thread started by her fans confidently predicting that the title would be hers and laugh in their faces. And if she does win the whole thing, well, I will only ask the question: what kind of women's tour is this when threads discussing a match-up between two Top 5 players can consist only of people bleating repetitively "Player X can't beat Venus"? They may well be right, but what on earth does that say about the depth in the game?
So, Hendouble, either way, Venus will drive you through the inextricable labyrinth of your consciousness and find you something to do. Well, well, well!

Hendouble
Aug 20th, 2003, 11:23 PM
So, Hendouble, either way, Venus will drive you through the inextricable labyrinth of your consciousness and find you something to do. Well, well, well!

Well, I wouldn't call my consciousness an inextricable labyrinth exactly, more a sort of complicated board game. But don't worry, she'll only occupy my brain as a tedious afterthought while I get on with watching the real competition over on the men's side. :D