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bandabou
Aug 19th, 2003, 02:35 PM
With the Open around the corner, I sat down and made my list for best hardcourt players in history.

Top 5:
1. Serena( her gameīs BUILD for hardcourts. 2 open titles.)
2. Venus( also good on hardcourts, but I think grass is her best surface. 2 titles.)
3. Lindsay( arguably the best until the sisters arrived. 1 title.)
4. Steffi( 4 or 5 titles, plus numerous Nasdaqs....although that record looks increasingly weak every year.)
5. Martina H( 3 straight finals, 1 title.)

great smash
Aug 19th, 2003, 02:36 PM
With the Open around the corner, I sat down and made my list for best hardcourt players in history.

Top 5:
1. Serena( her gameīs BUILD for hardcourts. 2 open titles.)
2. Venus( also good on hardcourts, but I think grass is her best surface. 2 titles.)
3. Lindsay( arguably the best until the sisters arrived. 1 title.)
4. Steffi( 4 or 5 titles, plus numerous Nasdaqs....although that record looks increasingly weak every year.)
5. Martina H( 3 straight finals, 1 title.)

You seem to have a short term memory ;)

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 02:46 PM
steffi's us open record doesn't look weak at all. she won her first under the mental worst possible circumstances, knowing what would have happened if she had failed :o

another thing that deserves more credit but no people only bash because she felt empty inside and didn't played fake emotions :o

bandabou
Aug 19th, 2003, 02:49 PM
You seem to have a short term memory ;)

Could be....thatīs why I asked otherīs opinion.

hingis-seles
Aug 19th, 2003, 02:55 PM
Monica Seles has more US Open titles than Lindsay and Martina do and the same number of US Open titles as Venus and Serena. She's also won 2 NASDAQ titles. Martina Hingis has won 2 NASDAQ titles and Lindsay has never won the NASDAQ.

Chris Evert won so many US Open titles, including 3 consecutive.

skanky~skanketta
Aug 19th, 2003, 02:58 PM
magui serna!LOL!

well, there are too many.

tommyk75
Aug 19th, 2003, 03:14 PM
What criteria are you using? Are you talking about the levels of play the player displayed? In that case, the most recent players will of course be at the top of the list. But if you're going to talk about the "greatest in history," it's more appropriate to base it on actual achievements. And in that department, there's no way either Williams sister or Lindsay D can top Graf, Navratilova, or Evert (at least not yet).

Daniel
Aug 19th, 2003, 03:15 PM
Martina Hingis

Magui Serna

:D :D :D :worship:

bandabou
Aug 19th, 2003, 03:18 PM
What criteria are you using? Are you talking about the levels of play the player displayed? In that case, the most recent players will of course be at the top of the list. But if you're going to talk about the "greatest in history," it's more appropriate to base it on actual achievements. And in that department, there's no way either Williams sister or Lindsay D can top Graf, Navratilova, or Evert (at least not yet).

Yep I was talking more about level of play.....and who would beat who on their best days on hardcourts.

disposablehero
Aug 19th, 2003, 03:20 PM
Chris Evert won so many US Open titles, including 3 consecutive.
Half of Chris's US Open titles were not on Hardcourt, however. Actually, she won 4 consecutive, but the first 3 of those were on Clay. What about Martina Navratilova, who won the US Open 4 times in a 5 year period and lost the Final the other year?

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 03:20 PM
steffi's us open record against nav is pretty bad.

aprildawn
Aug 19th, 2003, 04:53 PM
monica's got 4 ausopen titles, 2 usopen titles, 4 canadian open titles, and lots of hardcourt titles

alfajeffster
Aug 19th, 2003, 05:36 PM
steffi's us open record against nav is pretty bad.

Actually, it's not. How many U.S. Opens did Martina Navratilova play before she finally won? I think she had been playing the Open since 1974 or 75, and it took her until 1983 to finally break through, and then she faltered as soon as Graf and Seles came along.

Graf had a shakey U.S. Open start as a teenager, but then broke through and won in 1988, 1989, 1993, 1995, 1996, and played in a handful of finals. She never played her best there, either. I think her best hardcourt matches have been in California and who can forget the U.S. Women's Hardcourt Final in 1991 when she blew Seles out of the water! :bounce:

Diya
Aug 19th, 2003, 05:39 PM
Why isn't Monica not in there ?:confused:

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 05:41 PM
Actually, it's not. How many U.S. Opens did Martina Navratilova play before she finally won? I think she had been playing the Open since 1974 or 75, and it took her until 1983 to finally break through, and then she faltered as soon as Graf and Seles came along.

Graf had a shakey U.S. Open start as a teenager, but then broke through and won in 1988, 1989, 1993, 1995, 1996, and played in a handful of finals. She never played her best there, either. I think her best hardcourt matches have been in California and who can forget the U.S. Women's Hardcourt Final in 1991 when she blew Seles out of the water! :bounce:

I didn't mean steffi's overall record but her head to head in new york against nav

1:4 is not good and 2 wins were when steffi was number 1 already.

alfajeffster
Aug 19th, 2003, 05:47 PM
Why isn't Monica not in there ?:confused:

2 U.S. Open titles doesn't make the top 5 best players in history. That list is reserved for:

1. Steffi Graf- 9 titles
2. Chris Evert- 6 titles (3 on hard and all those finals)
3. Martina Navratilova- 4 titles
4. Margaret Court- you have to include her in the conversation, even though she never played a hardcourt major, her career hardcourt record is fabulous; and
5. Maureen Connolly- grew up on the hardcourts of San Diego, and had a terrific winning percentage.

bandabou
Aug 19th, 2003, 05:47 PM
Not so much about the sistersīplace on the list. Cool!

alfajeffster
Aug 19th, 2003, 05:48 PM
I didn't mean steffi's overall record but her head to head in new york against nav

1:4 is not good and 2 wins were when steffi was number 1 already.

Oh... we'll just not talk about that record then, okay? :kiss:

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 05:50 PM
okay steffi the best hardcourt player ever;)

Rollo
Aug 19th, 2003, 06:20 PM
We really can't judge well before 1978 IMO, because that's when the US Open went hard and the current hard court era really started.

So my list would have to be post-78.


1. Monica Seles: this is hands down as far as I'm concerned. Monica won 5 straight majors on hard courts (91-93) lost the 95 US Open to Graf, then won Oz. That's 6 of 7 on hard courts and can't be beat.

2. Steffi Graf: Won 5 staight majors on hard courts (88-90) before loss in finals of the US Open to Sabatini. At their best I think Monica would win more than 50% of her matches vs Steffi on hard courts.

3. Martina Navratilova:won 4 of 5 US Opens from 1983-7.



Then it gets tough.

4. Evert (3 US Opens) has to be considered.

5. Hingis won 3 straight Aussies and a US Open.

6. Serena has won 3 hard court majors. Likely to move up.

7. Venus was close to unbeatable on US hard courts from 2000-2001, but her lack of an Aussie hurts her.

MLF
Aug 19th, 2003, 06:32 PM
I'd go with the obvious choices really i.e

Seles
Graf
Navratilova

I'd put Venus ahead of Serena for now actually though I'm sure it might be different come the end of their careers. I'd rank Evert above Hingis. I'm not belittling Hingis' 3 Aussie titles but I feel they were quite "soft" in reality. An unseeded Pierce & Mauresmo for two titles and Martinez for a third isn't that demanding ( though a great achievement nonetheless ). I'd almost be tempted to rank Tracy Austin above Hingis.

alfajeffster
Aug 19th, 2003, 06:40 PM
At their best I think Monica would win more than 50% of her matches vs Steffi on hard courts.

I think their head-to-head on hardcourt says otherwise. This coupled with the fact that Monica didn't play Steffi in any of those hardcourt finals between 91-93 except for the last one in Australia, and it's not widely known, but that year the Australian Open surface was the slowest rebound ace compound to date. They may as well have played it on a clay court. Monica Seles has never beaten Steffi Graf on a fast court. Of course, it's impossible to say, but I'd surmise that had Graf beaten Navratilova in the semis in 1991, Seles would have 1 less U.S. Open title.

bandabou
Aug 19th, 2003, 06:45 PM
At the end of their careers and if they stay healthy I think the sisters will go down as the best fast-surface players in history. Theyīre already dominating the Open and Wimby....and may well be on their way at the Oz too....doesnīt leave much for the other players to win, huh?!

Diya
Aug 19th, 2003, 06:47 PM
...... I'd surmise that had Graf beaten Navratilova in the semis in 1991, Seles would have 1 less U.S. Open title.

LOL :lol: and its the Seles fans who are cursed at for talking about "woulda" and "coulda's" :rolleyes:

alfajeffster
Aug 19th, 2003, 06:49 PM
At the end of their careers and if they stay healthy I think the sisters will go down as the best fast-surface players in history. Theyīre already dominating the Open and Wimby....and may well be on their way at the Oz too....doesnīt leave much for the other players to win, huh?!

Classifying the Australian Open as a fast court is incorrect IMO. I was down there for the Williams Sisters final this past January, and I saw firsthand how high the ball bounces on Rebound Ace. It's really like night and day between that and the DecoTurf II at the U.S. Open, which does bounce much lower and faster. Put it this way- how many drop shots do you remember from all the years you've been watching the Australian Open since it's been on Rebound Ace?

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 06:49 PM
monica was better on rebound ace
steffi on american hardcourt

can't we settle for that?

I am only talking about head to head now not if monica was better because steffi lost to asv (just an example)

alfajeffster
Aug 19th, 2003, 06:52 PM
LOL :lol: and its the Seles fans who are cursed at for talking about "woulda" and "coulda's" :rolleyes:

True- but they usually fall into that trap so easily because it is so easy with Seles. Face it, she played Novotna, Navratilova, Mary Joe Fernandez, and Arantxa Sanchez Vicario, and her only wins against Graf on hardcourt are at the ridiculously slow, high-bouncing Rebound Ace in Australia. That does kinda tell you something... :eek:

bandabou
Aug 19th, 2003, 06:58 PM
Classifying the Australian Open as a fast court is incorrect IMO. I was down there for the Williams Sisters final this past January, and I saw firsthand how high the ball bounces on Rebound Ace. It's really like night and day between that and the DecoTurf II at the U.S. Open, which does bounce much lower and faster. Put it this way- how many drop shots do you remember from all the years you've been watching the Australian Open since it's been on Rebound Ace?

Yep, youīre right. Those dropshots become more like lobs at the Oz...

Serendy Willick
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:00 PM
Seles was one of the great Hardcourt players. That return on ANY hardcourt was the single deadliest shot in womens tennis back in the day.

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:01 PM
but if monica is able to handle that better then steffi then she is simply better at that surface.

hingis-seles
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:13 PM
Half of Chris's US Open titles were not on Hardcourt, however. Actually, she won 4 consecutive, but the first 3 of those were on Clay. What about Martina Navratilova, who won the US Open 4 times in a 5 year period and lost the Final the other year?

Thanks. I wasn't sure of the numbers. :)

Rollo
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:17 PM
Alfa-Steffi's 4-2 head to head isn't overwhelming. Had a call gone Monica's way at the 1995 US Open it would be 3-3

Of course my pick is subjective, but a hard court is the one surface where Graf's backhand could be exploited by Monica. I feel Steffi would have the same difficulties with Serena and Venus on hard courts.

bandabou
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:19 PM
Alfa-Steffi's 4-2 head to head isn't overwhelming. Had a call gone Monica's way at the 1995 US Open it would be 3-3

Of course my pick is subjective, but a hard court is the one surface where Graf's backhand could be exploited by Monica. I feel Steffi would have the same difficulties with Serena and Venus on hard courts.

Steffi doesnīt even have to start THINKING about beating Venus or Serena on hardcourts...those days are past!

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:21 PM
I am sure steffi could kick ass the us open, in the 7th(might even further) month :lol:

alfajeffster
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:23 PM
Alfa-Steffi's 4-2 head to head isn't overwhelming. Had a call gone Monica's way at the 1995 US Open it would be 3-3

Of course my pick is subjective, but a hard court is the one surface where Graf's backhand could be exploited by Monica. I feel Steffi would have the same difficulties with Serena and Venus on hard courts.

No, that's only 6 matches, and the only 2 Seles was able to win were on the slow, Rebound Ace in Australia. Let's not forget we're talking about crushed car tires here, folks. I said it before, and it bears repeating: the best match I ever saw Graf and Seles play was the 1991 U.S. Women's Hardcourt Championships in San Antonio. Seles played really well, and so did Graf, although she started slow. On this fast hardcourt Graf systematically broke down the Seles game and by the end of the second set was exposing the one glaring weakness in Monica Seles game- her lack of mobility. Hingis, with her 2-handed backhand, was able to do this much easier, but Graf did it enough on hardcourts to say she was the better player.

Graf has 9 hardcourt majors; Seles only 6 hardcourt majors.

bandabou
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:24 PM
I am sure steffi could kick ass the us open, in the 7th(might even further) month :lol:

And Irma, whatīs it gonna be?! Boy or Girl?! I think it a girl...you know so they can play mixed together: Jaden and her little sis...

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:25 PM
I go for twins

bandabou
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:27 PM
No, that's only 6 matches, and the only 2 Seles was able to win were on the slow, Rebound Ace in Australia. Let's not forget we're talking about crushed car tires here, folks. I said it before, and it bears repeating: the best match I ever saw Graf and Seles play was the 1991 U.S. Women's Hardcourt Championships in San Antonio. Seles played really well, and so did Graf, although she started slow. On this fast hardcourt Graf systematically broke down the Seles game and by the end of the second set was exposing the one glaring weakness in Monica Seles game- her lack of mobility. Hingis, with her 2-handed backhand, was able to do this much easier, but Graf did it enough on hardcourts to say she was the better player.

Graf has 9 hardcourt majors; Seles only 6 hardcourt majors.

Yep that was the area that doomed Seles....she was too unmobile, plus her fitness wasnīt up to par. Odd, with her being two-hander...she didnīt work on her mobility, knowing that her reach was limited.

Rollo
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:29 PM
LOLBandabou-of course you are right-but if you watch some of the matches Steffi played vs the sisters on hard courts you'd see what I mean ;)

This US Open is very important for Venus. If she can't win with Serena
out she's two years slamless and becomes another Hingis.

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:33 PM
all those 6:1 6:1 scores were painfull. well that's what I start to believe after such a post

hingis-seles
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:42 PM
On this fast hardcourt Graf systematically broke down the Seles game and by the end of the second set was exposing the one glaring weakness in Monica Seles game- her lack of mobility. Hingis, with her 2-handed backhand, was able to do this much easier, but Graf did it enough on hardcourts to say she was the better player.

This post alone proves that you're talking through your ass.

Before the stabbing, Monica did not have mobility issues. One of her biggest strengths was her ability to get to the ball quickly and set-up and smack the biggest and most accurate groundstroke in the game. That's one of the reasons she's considered one of the greatest shotmakers in history. Monica was quick pre-1993. She was definitely NOT slow.

Rollo
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:43 PM
Alfajeffster: I can tell you are a fan of Rebound Ace! ;)
Like it or not, Rebound Ace is STILL a hard court.

And I'd say your stats make my case. Seles won 6 of her 9 slams on hard courts, a whopping 66% of her slams. Steffi won 9 of 22, much lower.

Graf was better overall IMO on all surfaces, stabbing or no stabbing, but
one surface where the odds swung in Monica's favor were hard courts.

We'll have to agree to disagree I guess :)

alfajeffster
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:45 PM
This post alone proves that you're talking through your ass.

Before the stabbing, Monica did not have mobility issues. One of her biggest strengths was her ability to get to the ball quickly and set-up and smack the biggest and most accurate groundstroke in the game. That's one of the reasons she's considered one of the greatest shotmakers in history. Monica was quick pre-1993. She was definitely NOT slow.

Did you see the 1991 U.S. Women's Hardcourt Final? Oh, and remember before you answer, I love you too. :kiss:

alfajeffster
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:47 PM
Alfajeffster: I can tell you are a fan of Rebound Ace! ;)
Like it or not, Rebound Ace is STILL a hard court.

And I'd say your stats make my case. Seles won 6 of her 9 slams on hard courts, a whopping 66% of her slams. Steffi won 9 of 22, much lower.

Graf was better overall IMO on all surfaces, stabbing or no stabbing, but
one surface where the odds swung in Monica's favor were hard courts.

We'll have to agree to disagree I guess :)

That's a healthy, courteous closure to an unsolvable argument. Thank you, sir!

P.S.- Who did she play to win that whopping 66%- oh, okay, I'll put it to rest! :lol:

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:48 PM
but then there is still nav who beat both monica and steffi in the last match they played on hardcourt (officially match)

yeah monica might have had ankle troubles and steffi had not practiced because of her shoulder but nav was old and supposed to be at the end too

I think it's too easy to pass her because rebound ace was not there at her prime.

hingis-seles
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:50 PM
Did you see the 1991 U.S. Women's Hardcourt Final? Oh, and remember before you answer, I love you too. :kiss:

No I didn't, but I did see the 1993 Australian Open and the 1992 Wimbledon finals. I saw them with unbiased eyes. Not sure I can say the same for you.

I still can't get over the fact that you considered Monica to be slow when she was #1. :haha: :lol:

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:51 PM
you can't base everything on san antonio even when from a steffi point of view it was one of the most important matches of her career maybe even more important then wimbledon that year and I love that match :D

I am serious considering the mental condition steffi was in :o

hingis-seles
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:52 PM
but then there is still nav who beat both monica and steffi in the last match they played on hardcourt (officially match)

yeah monica might have had ankle troubles and steffi had not practiced because of her shoulder but nav was old and supposed to be at the end too

I think it's too easy to pass her because rebound ace was not there at her prime.

Very good point, Bobbie! :D

Martina Nav :worship:

bandabou
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:53 PM
I go for twins

Damn, girl! I thought you was a fan!! You wanna kill the woman or what?! ;)

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:55 PM
my mother got 8 children including a twin and she is still totally alive and healthy;)

SerenaSlam
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:59 PM
Here are the top 5 best hardcourt players

Steffi 339-35
Martina N 135-17
Chris 116-19
Venus 196-34
Serena 145-26

I dunno the streaks and great runs on hardcourts everyone had besides venus. since 2000 she has been OC!

113-9 Against the entire tour. Take Serena out the picture and injury w/drawls. She is 113-4

She last lost to Serena 4 Times, and 1 walkover.

I think we already know the greatness of Venus' hardcourt Seasons, but it didn't hurt to tell it again. I think by the end of her career, she could easily at this rate, be up there with Steffi and Navi.

bandabou
Aug 19th, 2003, 08:00 PM
LOLBandabou-of course you are right-but if you watch some of the matches Steffi played vs the sisters on hard courts you'd see what I mean ;)

This US Open is very important for Venus. If she can't win with Serena
out she's two years slamless and becomes another Hingis.

Right about that Rollo...some classic matches there. Sydney ī99( beat them both, only time she defeated Venus on hardcourts and first match against Serena), IW ī99( Serena got her revenge and stopped her finals winning streak) and Nasdaq/ Lipton ī99( Venus got her revenge and set the first William-Williams final, only a prelude!)....damn she sure played them a lot in ī99 with Wimbledon as the culminating point!

A thing I found funny is that always the sisters ended up weakening and softening Graf for Davenport that year. At sydney she beat both, but was so ill that she couldnīt handle Davenport in the semiīs.

At Wimby the same thing. Graf had to battle with Venus and then Mirjana, while Davenport was handling Dokic and stevenson...

bandabou
Aug 19th, 2003, 08:01 PM
my mother got 8 children including a twin and she is still totally alive and healthy;)

Then....let it be, huh?! I donīt think Andre would like the idea of changing two dripers at the same time though...well maybe heīll do afterall..I mean how long can he keep playing tennis...

bandabou
Aug 19th, 2003, 08:03 PM
Here are the top 5 best hardcourt players

Steffi 339-35
Martina N 135-17
Chris 116-19
Venus 196-34
Serena 145-26

I dunno the streaks and great runs on hardcourts everyone had besides venus. since 2000 she has been OC!

113-9 Against the entire tour. Take Serena out the picture and injury w/drawls. She is 113-4

She last lost to Serena 4 Times, and 1 walkover.

I think we already know the greatness of Venus' hardcourt Seasons, but it didn't hurt to tell it again. I think by the end of her career, she could easily at this rate, be up there with Steffi and Navi.

Yep and donīt forget about Serena...only person who seems to own Venus on hardcourts.

DA FOREHAND
Aug 19th, 2003, 08:04 PM
Yep had they not changed the seeding Steffi would have had a kinder draw, and if they were to meet in the final things might have worked out diff.

Steffi's hc record speaks for itself incredible numbers Venus has 34 losses Steffi has 35 looses. ;-)

alfajeffster
Aug 19th, 2003, 08:06 PM
No I didn't, but I did see the 1993 Australian Open and the 1992 Wimbledon finals. I saw them with unbiased eyes. Not sure I can say the same for you.

I still can't get over the fact that you considered Monica to be slow when she was #1. :haha: :lol:

She has always been considered one of the slowest #1s in the history of the sport- both before the stabbing and markedly so afterward. Before the stabbing, she was 1" smaller in stature, and less fat, so yes, her movement was better then, but it still wasn't anywhere close to even the top 50 movers of all time. Monica's greatest strength before the stabbing was her anticipation. This had nothing to do with movement, and everything to do with mental capacity and execution. She had good footwork, but not anywhere near the best. Her anticipation brought her the titles. By the time she returned, she was taller, noticeably heavier, and even slower. She had 3 years to get fit, and didn't, and the Hingis/Davenport/VWilliams/SWilliams/Capriati power hitters who were fit simply moved her around the court. I happen to like Monica Seles quite a bit. I did see the 1991 San Antonio Final, and both the Australian hardcourt wins where Seles beat Graf. The 1993 Final was the best I've ever seen Seles play against Graf. It's a shame her career was interrupted the way it was, but it was, and what we're left with is conjecture about what might have been with every other player besides Graf. Steffi Graf has NEVER had a losing record against Monica Seles- before the stabbing, or after, on all surfaces. It's a good thing!

DA FOREHAND
Aug 19th, 2003, 08:13 PM
It really is a shame she never stuck w/any commitment to get fit...

alfajeffster
Aug 19th, 2003, 08:18 PM
It really is a shame she never stuck w/any commitment to get fit...

I know- but in a historical perspective, was she ever anything more than a giggling little girl who liked to eat? When you're 16-18 years old and still growing into your body, fitness doesn't matter and neither does diet. Truth is, she was never really fit- just a little girl growing into her body. I can't recall her ever claiming to be anything else. I'm just sick of people making excuses for her. She seems to be the one person who is most well-adjusted with the way things turned out for her. I don't see her crying about what might have been all the time. It's altogether possible that Steffi would have beaten her in the majority of the majors they might have played had Seles not been stabbed. We'll never know, and no one can force Monica to get fit, and she seems happy- so let's move on- Steffi sure has!

bandabou
Aug 19th, 2003, 08:18 PM
Yep had they not changed the seeding Steffi would have had a kinder draw, and if they were to meet in the final things might have worked out diff.

Steffi's hc record speaks for itself incredible numbers Venus has 34 losses Steffi has 35 looses. ;-)

Donīt read too much in that.....Venus is on pace to play twice as many hardcourt matches Graf...so of course sheīs bound to lose some.

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 08:20 PM
she was number 1 for two years and steffi was number 2 so saying she was nothing more then the hihihihi girl is bashing steffi too;)

bandabou
Aug 19th, 2003, 08:20 PM
I know- but in a historical perspective, was she ever anything more than a giggling little girl who liked to eat? When you're 16-18 years old and still growing into your body, fitness doesn't matter and neither does diet. Truth is, she was never really fit- just a little girl growing into her body. I can't recall her ever claiming to be anything else. I'm just sick of people making excuses for her. She seems to be the one person who is most well-adjusted with the way things turned out for her. I don't see her crying about what might have been all the time. It's altogether possible that Steffi would have beaten her in the majority of the majors they might have played had Seles not been stabbed. We'll never know, and no one can force Monica to get fit, and she seems happy- so let's move on- Steffi sure has!

Of course, she has. Itīs easy to move on when itīs you that has won the majors..

bandabou
Aug 19th, 2003, 08:22 PM
she was number 1 for two years and steffi was number 2 so saying she was nothing more then the hihihihi girl is bashing steffi too;)

You tell them, girl! ;) But she was only 19 at the time of the stabbing, no?!

Kart
Aug 19th, 2003, 08:31 PM
I'd surmise that had Graf beaten Navratilova in the semis in 1991, Seles would have 1 less U.S. Open title.

Surmising again ? Risky business on this board :p.

I'm taking the easy way out and just agreeing with Rollo :worship:.

Devin2.0
Aug 19th, 2003, 08:36 PM
This post alone proves that you're talking through your ass.

Before the stabbing, Monica did not have mobility issues. One of her biggest strengths was her ability to get to the ball quickly and set-up and smack the biggest and most accurate groundstroke in the game. That's one of the reasons she's considered one of the greatest shotmakers in history. Monica was quick pre-1993. She was definitely NOT slow.


You really need to watch this match. Seles was up 4-1 and then Graf won 11 of the last 14 games. There were very few errors from both, but a huge number of winners from Graf. Most points ended in a winner from Graf.

alfajeffster
Aug 19th, 2003, 08:39 PM
Surmising again ? Risky business on this board :p.

I'm taking the easy way out and just agreeing with Rollo :worship:.

Okay- I'll assume, and bring us all into the fray- I'll assume that had Graf beaten Navratilova, and Graf beaten Sanchez-Vicario, Seles would have no U.S. Open titles. Then, I'll ask if Seles has ever beaten Steffi Graf on a fast hardcourt, and seal the magic... :lol:

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 08:42 PM
I doubt if steffi had beaten asv, she suddenly had looked more interested in the semis or final. that could have been ugly :o

bandabou
Aug 19th, 2003, 08:46 PM
I doubt if steffi had beaten asv, she suddenly had looked more interested in the semis or final. that could have been ugly :o

What was happening with Steffi back then?! You seem pretty upset about her mental state.....was it the time of the model or the taxes?!

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 08:48 PM
no I have my opinion but that's speculation

he it was only in new york, steffi tried and tried everywhere else;)

bandabou
Aug 19th, 2003, 08:49 PM
no I have my opinion but that's speculation

he it was only in new york, steffi tried and tried everywhere else;)

Oh like that....girl, you can be mysterious at times!

alfajeffster
Aug 19th, 2003, 08:51 PM
no I have my opinion but that's speculation

he it was only in new york, steffi tried and tried everywhere else;)

Let's hear your opinion- who is he, or it was only in New York, and what did Steffi try everywhere else? :confused:

Kart
Aug 19th, 2003, 08:52 PM
he it was only in new york, steffi tried and tried everywhere else;)

You mean like in Florida :p :p :p :p :p .

It's the only statistic I have :o.

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 08:53 PM
steffi had other things on her mind in ny those days. she more or less confirmed that in 99;)

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 08:54 PM
You mean like in Florida :p :p :p :p :p .

It's the only statistic I have :o.

blah :p

I have no doubt steffi tried but I don't blame her she never returned to AI after 92;)

Kart
Aug 19th, 2003, 09:00 PM
Okay- I'll assume, and bring us all into the fray- I'll assume that had Graf beaten Navratilova, and Graf beaten Sanchez-Vicario, Seles would have no U.S. Open titles. Then, I'll ask if Seles has ever beaten Steffi Graf on a fast hardcourt, and seal the magic... :lol:

Mate, I'm in no mood to argue as I am in a good mood, going on holiday tomorrow ... to Paris ... where if Jana Novotna hadn't won her QF in 1996, Steffi would have one less French open title :p.

Best I could do :o.

alfajeffster
Aug 19th, 2003, 09:05 PM
Mate, I'm in no mood to argue as I am in a good mood, going on holiday tomorrow ... to Paris ... where if Jana Novotna hadn't won her QF in 1996, Steffi would have one less French open title :p.

Best I could do :o.

Enjoy Paris, mate! Oh, and while there- try and check out one of the local red clay courts and see if you can find a serve-and-volley player in a singles match... maybe wheelchair tennis? :lol:

Jippo McScally
Aug 19th, 2003, 09:12 PM
Okay- I'll assume, and bring us all into the fray- I'll assume that had Graf beaten Navratilova, and Graf beaten Sanchez-Vicario, Seles would have no U.S. Open titles. Then, I'll ask if Seles has ever beaten Steffi Graf on a fast hardcourt, and seal the magic... :lol:

Isnt that kinda like saying had Monica Seles not been stabbed etc!
For all we now Steffi could have lost 6-0 6-0(I HIGHLY doubt that would have happend, but who knows)

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 09:13 PM
Mate, I'm in no mood to argue as I am in a good mood, going on holiday tomorrow ... to Paris ... where if Jana Novotna hadn't won her QF in 1996, Steffi would have one less French open title :p.

Best I could do :o.

enjoy your holiday :D

DA FOREHAND
Aug 19th, 2003, 09:17 PM
Now contrast

mboyle
Aug 19th, 2003, 09:36 PM
Hardcourt players (based on game style more than actual records)

1. Serena Williams
2. Lindsay Davenport
3. Monica Seles
4. Venus Williams
5. Tracy Austin/Jennifer Capriati

This MAY look like short term memory, but remember: hardcourts have only been a major surface since the late 70s, and the major forces of the 80s had games best suited to other surfaces (Mandliklova/Shriver/Navratilova to Grass, Evert/Graf/Sabatini to clay)

alfajeffster
Aug 19th, 2003, 09:39 PM
Hardcourt players (based on game style more than actual records)

1. Serena Williams
2. Lindsay Davenport
3. Monica Seles
4. Venus Williams
5. Tracy Austin/Jennifer Capriati

This MAY look like short term memory, but remember: hardcourts have only been a major surface since the late 70s, and the major forces of the 80s had games best suited to other surfaces (Mandliklova/Shriver/Navratilova to Grass, Evert/Graf/Sabatini to clay)

Graf to clay? I'd say Grass!!! :worship:

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 09:39 PM
tracy austin is from before steffi :lol:

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 09:41 PM
Graf to clay? I'd say Grass!!! :worship:

I saw both :devil:
french open 99 was the ultimate prove :devil:

bandabou
Aug 19th, 2003, 09:44 PM
I saw both :devil:
french open 99 was the ultimate prove :devil:

Grass, itīs just that Hingis was a fool then....complaining about a stupid line call..blowing a set and 5-3 advantage in the second set. Looks earily like the Ozī02 final.

alfajeffster
Aug 19th, 2003, 09:44 PM
tracy austin is from before steffi :lol:

They actually played twice, once when Steffi was 13, and then when Austin attempted a comeback in the early 90s at Carlsbad. Austin won the first match and made remarks like she didn't think Steffi was all that different from the rest of the young girls coming up. Of course, she changed her mind by the time they played the second time. Remember that rude interview Tracy did at Wimbledon a few years ago, after Graf gave specific press instructions that she was not going to discuss her father and the model issue, and Tracy got her on HBO camera and asked her anyway- and Graf cut the interview short like a bad stepchild?!? :fiery:

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 09:46 PM
I am from europe so I only had german interviews sometimes steffi was boycotting them like after canada 95 or at the us open 96(after the semis)

didn't know she had problems with the americans either. I thought they did not care

bandabou
Aug 19th, 2003, 09:48 PM
They actually played twice, once when Steffi was 13, and then when Austin attempted a comeback in the early 90s at Carlsbad. Austin won the first match and made remarks like she didn't think Steffi was all that different from the rest of the young girls coming up. Of course, she changed her mind by the time they played the second time. Remember that rude interview Tracy did at Wimbledon a few years ago, after Graf gave specific press instructions that she was not going to discuss her father and the model issue, and Tracy got her on HBO camera and asked her anyway- and Graf cut the interview short like a bad stepchild?!? :fiery:

Thatīs really like mean....I mean what do you gain with kinda emberassing someone in public?!

alfajeffster
Aug 19th, 2003, 09:52 PM
I am from europe so I only had german interviews sometimes steffi was boycotting them like after canada 95 or at the us open 96(after the semis)

didn't know she had problems with the americans either. I thought they did not care

I had the good fortune to have met Tracy Austin a few years ago when she was here in my hometown for a Tennis Legends event. She and I are exactly the same age, and I got to pick her up and shuffle her between racquet clubs and events. She is a very nice girl, and very friendly and personable. I didn't get the feeling she had any attitude problems, and was very down to earth. I did start talking tennis history with her, and unfortunately, she didn't have a clue about players before her time. I didn't think she made the best TV commentator- a little worse than Chris Evert, who isn't good either IMO. Tracy always seemed like she was repeating what was fed in her ear while in the commentary booth- which she was. :lol: