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View Full Version : Is Justine now as arrogant as the Williams sisters?


Hulet
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:08 AM
What do you think? She made a lot of statements after the FO which might lead one to think that Justine has probably eclipsed the sisters atleast in this regard: Here are some of her statments (paraphrased ofcourse)
"I am intelligent unlike other players"
"I don't only use my muscle unlike other players"
"Power players are scared of me"
....

So, where is Justine's arrogance in the spectrum? 10% below the sisters, at 50 %, at the same level, at 200%?

bandabou
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:12 AM
What do you think? She made a lot of statements after the FO which might lead one to think that Justine has probably eclipsed the sisters atleast in this regard: Here are some of her statments (paraphrased ofcourse)
"I am intelligent unlike other players"
"I don't only use my muscle unlike other players"
"Power players are scared of me"
....

So, where is Justine's arrogance in the spectrum? 10% below the sisters, at 50 %, at the same level, at 200%?

I´m willing to bet that if either sister have said such things, they would have been banned by the WTA. The same with the comments by the coach of Justine....if it was Richard.....

Sam L
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:13 AM
She's not arrogant. Those comments are true to a certain degree anyway.

faboozadoo15
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:15 AM
nice "paraphrasing." but i agree that she is pretty cocky. however, we have to remember that us as (mainly) english speakers only get to hear what she says to english speaking reporters in ENGLISH. she may not have all her words to say, "i think that slowly the game is being more well-rounded, and many players are watching out for players like me-- who prefer -------- over power." so she says, "players are afraid of me"-- that is if she actually said that to begin with...

Sam L
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:17 AM
Of course, that was the same problem with Hingis; English isn't their first language. How will you cope if you were bombarded with questions in French or Italian after you just played a tennis and you have all sorts of emotions running through your head? :rolleyes:

-Sonic-
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:21 AM
Well the sister's comments are also true to a certain degree... they are definately the best players on tour on an average day, more often than not, when they play, they win. Anything they say that sounds cocky, is blatently true.

I'd say they're all cocky, and thats cos of all the billions of people in the world, they are the best. They lose, but only to people who are right up there with them. In a way, they deserve to be as cocky as they want. But in another, cockiness isn't endearing or an attractive trait in a person in big doses. I'd say she was more or less up there with anyone.

But also, who hasn't said "if i am playing at the top of my game, I can beat anyone"...... - who hasn't said that about their fave player also?

harloo
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:23 AM
She's not arrogant. Those comments are true to a certain degree anyway.

Oh sam L give me a break.lol

What I find disturbing on this board is the double standards. Justine's comments lately has been very arrogant, even moreso that what Serena is always accused of.

curtain
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:24 AM
hahahah u r exactly rite! she is as arrogant as the williams sisters and lets just hope she doesn't adopt their fashion sense :rolleyes:

Volcana
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:25 AM
Anyone who was calling Venus or Serena's statements 'arrogant' because of an honest appraisal of the statements, would find Justine's statement's 'arrogant', as well.

Of course, if those comments were motivated by racial bias, naturally Justine's comments would seem fine.

ONe imagine's that there's another 10-12% of the population that falls into neither category.

harloo
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:27 AM
hahahah u r exactly rite! she is as arrogant as the williams sisters and lets just hope she doesn't adopt their fashion sense :rolleyes:

Justine better get some fashion sense. I won't even comment on her attire.

curtain
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:29 AM
Rotflmao At Harloo! :d:d:d:d

Jericho
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:33 AM
Venus is not arrogant at all

IIOoIaMaGirLoOII
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:35 AM
the comments are a bit true but justine has become a bit cocky.. what's worse is that everytime we see justine playing on tv the commentators are always praising her for a powerful backhand and giving us her "sad life story"..~ how she lost her mother and how she doesnt have a relationship with her family.. :yawn:

Sam L
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:39 AM
zzz the broken record has spoken
LOL! I know... :zzz:

harloo, I never said the sisters were arrogant.

curtain
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:42 AM
venus isn't arrogant? :haha: chek out this article i just found:

Why the Arrogant Venus Williams Has Ruined Women's Tennis

Eight Laps to Freedom
By SHIVA NAGARAJ

When did tennis become a combination of WWF and "General Hospital"?

Between keeping track of which hockey player Anna Kournikova has the hots for and following the tag-team rivalry pitting the Williams sisters against Lindsay Davenport and Martin Hingis, there's barely time left for catching any tennis that's actually being played.

Tennis is supposed to be the classy sport, the one that stays above the frays of the player squabbles, showbiz atmosphere, arrogant comments, and general malaise that characterize the other professional sports these days. As a whole, we've become so desensitized to the moral degeneration of baseball, football, basketball, and hockey that we barely turn our heads when the names Darryl Strawberry, Shawn Kemp, or Ray Lewis pop up in the press under the category of ill-cultured antics.

But tennis, the game of Rod Laver, Bjorn Borg and Chris Evert, wasn't supposed to be like the other sports.

For all the brilliant play that took place during the last fortnight's U.S. Open -- see Marat Safin, Todd Martin, Elena Dementieva -- it was easily overshadowed by the crass flavor that tennis has acquired recently.

And that trend all started with the arrival of Venus Williams onto the women's tennis scene.

There's no arguing that since Venus first began her march towards the top in 1994 (at the spry age of 14), she has raised the level of the sport exponentially. Instead of the days when Steffi Graf would dominate the tour ad nauseum, today there are reasonably 10-15 women who can make a legitimate run at any of the Grand Slam events.

But along with her phenomenal play, Venus also brought a hearty sense of arrogance and an unhealthy amount of cockiness, both of which have helped spawn the degeneration of tennis.

By destroying Davenport 6-4, 7-5 in the Open's final on Saturday, Venus produced further evidence that she is one of the best players out there right now; but at the same time, her words and actions detracted from her performance and only helped to add to the feeling that her presence on tour can only be bad for the future of the sport.

Having considered retirement a few months ago at the ripe old age of 20, Venus now seems a bit too confident of her abilities.

"I've always felt like the best player. It's about an attitude you take into the game. Now, I just go out and take it instead of hoping somebody's going to give it to me with their mistakes," she said.

Though that particular statement was uttered last week, Venus has been jabbering like that ever since she turned pro. But her words have far outdone her play on the court so far.

Hingis, despite being three months younger than Venus, has already won five Grand Slam titles compared to Venus' two. And Martina took her first Grand Slam in only her ninth try as opposed to Williams' 13th. Add Hingis' eight doubles titles in the Slams as well as the No.1 spot that she's clutched for the better part of the last three years, and it doesn't seem that Venus' words have really born any fruition.

Apparently that hasn't really stopped her.

In an interview, she recently said, "I had to ask the umpire [the score in the second set]. It didn't feel like the U.S. Open final. It felt like I was just playing a game."

Maybe you'd like to return your $800,000 check then. I mean, if it didn't feel like a U.S. Open final and all.

And commenting on winning both Wimbledon and the U.S. Open in the same year, she humbly declared, "It honestly does not feel as exciting as I thought it would."

Sorry the tennis world bores you so much Queen Venus. Jeez, even the problem child of the '80s, John McEnroe, eventually cleaned up his act.

And she doesn't limit her arrogance to the confines of the court.

When President Clinton called Saturday to congratulate Venus on her victory, she responded by asking him to cut her taxes. And when he said he would see what he could do, she shot back, "Should I read your lips?"

Furthermore, Clinton graciously invited Venus to the White House, to which she insultingly replied, "I'll think about it."

Contrast this to the way her sister, Serena treated a call from the Prez when she won the U.S. Open last year.

"I thought for sure my day couldn't get any better," she said in awe. "The next thing they told me is the President of the United States wanted to talk. I was like, wow."

Thankfully, at least one of the Willliams' sisters seems to comprehend the meaning of humility.

With a good 10-15 years of years left in her career, Venus has the talent to rule the WTA tour. She's beaten Davenport and Hingis at both Wimbledon and the U.S. Open now. The only reason she isn't No. 1 in the world is because the WTA bases its rankings on the last 52 weeks, and Venus missed the first four months of this season due to injury.

Perhaps if Venus puts a halt on the arrogance, and lets her racket do the talking, she will not only be respected for her ungodly skill but also for her down-to-earth demeanor.

If she can't do that, maybe she should retire early because tennis can do fine without her.




taken from http://www.cornellsun.com/articles/235/

Grafan
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:43 AM
yes she is as arrogant, she thinks of herself as the NEW inteligent player to play the game, yeah she has improved but there are better players than her.

bwguy
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:51 AM
So, where is Justine's arrogance in the spectrum? 10% below the sisters, at 50 %, at the same level, at 200%?

Well sure Justine's arrogance ranking has climbed in recent weeks, but it's really not fair to the sisters to compare them to her because they haven't been around to arrogate (new word) much lately. Justine may have passed them according to the WTA computer's arrogance rankings, but I'm sure a lot of people don't see her as the "true" number one in that category since the sisters have been absent. She's just very opportunistic at the moment, but you can't really blame her. She shouldn't just stop talking just because Serena and Venus haven't had many microphones shoved in front of them recently. One thing's for sure, it will be very interesting to see if the sisters rise to the challenge when they return and mount an audacious offensive of self-love the likes of which the tour has never seen. Stay tuned.

cool bird
Aug 19th, 2003, 01:04 AM
To be honest I think every champion is arrogant. I feel that they need to be.

Venus did explain the statements about I feel like im best player. She did an interview and she said "a lot of people called me arrogant when I frist came on the tour becuses i said thing like im the best player and I do feel like that but I also expect my oppent to feel that way too".

Runningtennisguy
Aug 19th, 2003, 01:30 AM
First of all, there is a difference between believing in yourself that you can beat someone if you are playing your best, and calling people downright stupid "I'm more intelligent than you are"."Power players are scared of me".Who the hell does she think she is? Correct me if I'm wrong, but she has a losing record against both Venus and Serena? For someone who is scared of Henin, Venus sure taps that @ss on the court. :lol: I'd bet 5$ that ina backhand duel, Venus would own Henin in the number of winners, especially on grass!

Astro Jetson
Aug 19th, 2003, 01:58 AM
What do you think? She made a lot of statements after the FO which might lead one to think that Justine has probably eclipsed the sisters atleast in this regard: Here are some of her statments (paraphrased ofcourse)
"I am intelligent unlike other players"
"I don't only use my muscle unlike other players"
"Power players are scared of me"


paraphrasing?????
You can apply for a job with "The Sun" when I read those quotations!

Go to the website of the rogersattcup and read the transcripts of the press conferences.

this attempt is way too obvious....

gweeny
Aug 19th, 2003, 02:22 AM
Who cares. There has to be a level of arrogrance in professional sports. It keeps the sport exciting.

Cam'ron Giles
Aug 19th, 2003, 02:35 AM
Who cares. There has to be a level of arrogrance in professional sports. It keeps the sport exciting.


Oh geez, now you tell me...And here I was organizing a lynch mob to scalp them two arrogant Williams b#tches... :rolleyes:

oddkayla
Aug 19th, 2003, 05:53 AM
Reading that article I did not see any arrogance in VEnus statements. Instead I saw a writer trying very hard to convince readers that surely Venus should not believe in herself, that her very existence is intended to ruin the lily white classy sport that is tennis!

Whoever this writer is, he/she could have found better examples because surely there have been times when Venus has been very arrogant and the last time that happened was in 1999.

gentenaire
Aug 19th, 2003, 06:09 AM
Why paraphrasing? Is it because you think the original quotes aren't sounding arrogant enough to 'prove' your statement?

curtain
Aug 19th, 2003, 06:18 AM
well the best statement that always comes to mind is :

"she thinks she's the fucking venus williams"- i love u irina sprilea 4 having the guts 2 say it :hearts:

jojoseph
Aug 19th, 2003, 06:24 AM
She's not arrogant. Those comments are true to a certain degree anyway.

lol

Whether or not the comments are true doesn't make any difference, the question was whether or not she's arrogant. Comments such as those can define the term arrogant.

Yes, indeed Venus was subjected to the same criticism.

decemberlove
Aug 19th, 2003, 06:26 AM
ARROGANCE IS GREAT.

how long will it take people to understand this?

curtain
Aug 19th, 2003, 06:29 AM
arrogance is a sign of weakness and insecurity u idiot!

decemberlove
Aug 19th, 2003, 06:35 AM
arrogance is a sign of weakness and insecurity u idiot!


ha! as opposed to calling people names, which is a sign of strength and security, right?


arrogance is important in sports, and most top athletes are arrogant. why does everyone want tennis to be a lil priss sport? thats why it isnt popular... it lacks personality that can be marketed.

curtain
Aug 19th, 2003, 06:40 AM
u moron-did i claim i was strong and weak? no! therefore, according to ur standards, i could just make up a random assumption bout u :rolleyes:

and ur just ignorant coz ur anotha williams-obsessed loser :rolleyes:

hmmm..... and kim has not been named arrogant once so take that! kim represents the true ideals of a number 1 player and doesnt yell out "u fucken bitch" to her opponent in the 1st round of the oz open :rolleyes: unlike the previous number1 holder...

treufreund
Aug 19th, 2003, 06:46 AM
curtain you are so funny :haha: :haha: :D

DunkMachine
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:01 AM
That article curtain posted is full of bullshit(pardon my french). His examples of her so called "arrogance" are weak. The first quote is obviously a sign of her self confidence. She felt she was the best and she WAS. What she said to Clinton was in good fun. More like asking Clinton to hook her up with a tax cut.

Justine and her coach however have become arrogant. Just because she won a grandslam they think they can say anything. Venus allways had her confidence but Justine needed the endless praise, support of a whole bitch-crowd(FO) and a gramslam win to gain her some selfconfidence. She is weak and now that she has won something she thought could never win by standard means, she thinks she's the shit.

If saying that "one is more intelligent than others" isn't arrogant, I don't know what is.

decemberlove
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:28 AM
u moron-did i claim i was strong and weak? no! therefore, according to ur standards, i could just make up a random assumption bout u :rolleyes:

and ur just ignorant coz ur anotha williams-obsessed loser :rolleyes:

hmmm..... and kim has not been named arrogant once so take that! kim represents the true ideals of a number 1 player and doesnt yell out "u fucken bitch" to her opponent in the 1st round of the oz open :rolleyes: unlike the previous number1 holder...


strong and weak? for one, it was strong and secure, and two, did i ever say you were claiming you were strong and secure? no, it was a question. but your defensiveness and willing to call people names says more than i could ever say to you. :kiss:

also, im not a williams obsessed "loser", i actually like kim better than either sister.

i think most will admit kim is a weak number one, thou. ever think if she took some of justines or serenas arrogance, that she wouldnt always fucking choke at the important parts?

skanky~skanketta
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:40 AM
i dont think venus says things like that.

arrogance is when you only say good stuff about yourself and put others down in the process. but if u credit ur opponent and say stuff like justine, its confidence.

serena venus and justine arent arrogant at all.
ok, justine is a lil cocky, but if it helps her confidence grow, so be it.

hingis was arrogant as hell, but she played a mean game of tennis.

The Crow
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:53 AM
So, you're paraphrasing some statements which are probably already translated from French to English (or otherwise Justine has said them in English which isn't her mothertongue) to prove a point. Wow!

To answer your question: yep, to a degree she's arrogant. You can call it self-confident, overself-confidence, arrogance, what ever,... I like it. Just as I like Venus her statements... And even Serena's (although I'm not a fan of hers).

If other people don't like it. Fine, no problem. There's a player there for everyone ;)

Maajken
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:55 AM
justine thinks way too highly of herself. "i play intelligent tennis, i dont beat my opponents with power" lol yeah right! everyone out of the top 10 plays intelligent or they wouldnt be where they are now and puh lease no power? i recommend her to watch one of her own matches then!
the only thing "different" about her is maybe the one handed backhand but hey its not like thats not been done before :rolleyes:

Dava
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:57 AM
I think Justine is beginning to be above herself, she may just be trash talking, but she will look the fool when Serena comes back, and beats her.

jujufan
Aug 19th, 2003, 08:08 AM
I think it has nothing to do with being arrogant.
It's everything to do with psychological war between players lol ....
The williams sisters proved all ready this works.
Remember how many players were impressed by their apperance because of their talking?

DunkMachine
Aug 19th, 2003, 08:30 AM
I think it has nothing to do with being arrogant.
It's everything to do with psychological war between players lol ....
The williams sisters proved all ready this works.
Remember how many players were impressed by their apperance because of their talking?

There's a difference between intimidation and insult. Justine did the latter. If one is intimidated that easily than you don't deserve to win.

The Crow
Aug 19th, 2003, 08:34 AM
There's a difference between intimidation and insult. Justine did the latter. If one is intimidated that easily than you don't deserve to win.

And where exactly is the insult?

curtain
Aug 19th, 2003, 08:43 AM
well i am in strong agreement wid dat article writer regarding venus' arrogance and have even set him in a letter of congratulations :D

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 08:52 AM
there comes the language thing again

steffi also called her opponents dumb, well that was not about tennis but about what they said after the match.
that probably was a language problem too if only she had not said it in the stern :lol:

stop making dumb excuses for your favs, they are not perfect :o

The Crow
Aug 19th, 2003, 08:54 AM
stop making dumb excuses for your favs, they are not perfect :o

Pffft, mine is :p

DunkMachine
Aug 19th, 2003, 08:56 AM
And where exactly is the insult?
By saying she is more intelligent than other top players. And she doesn't strike me as an academic at all.

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 09:02 AM
to be fair she didn't say I am more intelligent, she said I use my intelligence to win instead of power. whatever she means with that!

DunkMachine
Aug 19th, 2003, 09:02 AM
there comes the language thing again

steffi also called her opponents dumb, well that was not about tennis but about what they said after the match.
that probably was a language problem too if only she had not said it in the stern :lol:

stop making dumb excuses for your favs, they are not perfect :o

I agree with this. That language excuse is retarded. Besides if she really was that much more intelligent than the rest why is her english so bad. She been on tour for years yet the lingo doesn't really improve.

hmmmmmmm :rolleyes:

The Crow
Aug 19th, 2003, 09:07 AM
By saying she is more intelligent than other top players. And she doesn't strike me as an academic at all.

Typical. First read the article correctly, then give your opinion :rolleyes:

minboy
Aug 19th, 2003, 09:26 AM
Silly thread.
Justine haters are just afraid of her, so they come with anything they got to persuade themselves that " she's a bitch, she's arrogant,....."
I can understand that it is hard for you to accept that's she's now a top player after having underestimated her for 2 years( wishing she would be a shocker for ever ) , but now she's there, a threat to the W.S..

Don't tell me that's not true, otherwise you wouldn't be so OBSSESSED with her these days!!

and a huge LOL at the "paraphrasing"......tabloids are waiting for you!!!!!

kim4eva
Aug 19th, 2003, 09:44 AM
u moron-did i claim i was strong and weak? no! therefore, according to ur standards, i could just make up a random assumption bout u :rolleyes:

and ur just ignorant coz ur anotha williams-obsessed loser :rolleyes:

hmmm..... and kim has not been named arrogant once so take that! kim represents the true ideals of a number 1 player and doesnt yell out "u fucken bitch" to her opponent in the 1st round of the oz open :rolleyes: unlike the previous number1 holder...

I totally agree with this. I saw Justine play once at Wimbly and her face expression is really arrogant. I am a Kim fan and you know what? Justine seems to know I am not a supporter of her and she stares at me looking really mad every time she gets a point. She's so scary...:(

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 09:52 AM
yeah she is in telepathy. then you get such things!

Nemesis
Aug 19th, 2003, 10:15 AM
What Justine said has a certain degree of arrogance. I'm not fond of arrogance ... But I like her game and still like her. However, Serena climbs higher on my popularity ladder now. I used to dislike her a bit because of her arrogance, but now Justine is also being arrogant (because she feels she is the best at the moment), I think it is in Serena's right to be arrogant. I understand her better by what Justine said now! Justine is raising Serena's populaity this year!!! First the FO and now the arrogance ... Wow ... :worship: Williams fans should be grateful to her ;)

Jakeev
Aug 19th, 2003, 10:26 AM
I´m willing to bet that if either sister have said such things, they would have been banned by the WTA. The same with the comments by the coach of Justine....if it was Richard.....

Serena during the clay court season had said something that could be perceived as being arrogant and she did not get banned so I think you are being a little dramatic.

She had commented that in some of her few losses in the past few years that she had lost those matches due to her many unforced errors in a match, including some to Justine.

I did agree with her statement because her stats in some of those losses warranted that it was probably the truth.

But the overall picture here is that people want to confuse arrogance with confidence.

The personalities that we have in women's tennis is what makes it the most popular sport for women in the world.

fleemke³
Aug 19th, 2003, 10:40 AM
I've you wonna be a topplayer you have to be a bit arrogant imo. Some people can hide it in front of the press but if you are to kind on the courts you can't win big matches.

I saw Justine on a Belgian televisionshow (Laatste show?) and she was talking in French .. well I was suprised to hear her talking. she was quit funny and very nice. I think the languagething does change a lot ... :)

servenrichie
Aug 19th, 2003, 10:44 AM
the last 2 posts here made a lot of sense. The only thing I ask for is consistency...

Kart
Aug 19th, 2003, 11:12 AM
What do you think? She made a lot of statements after the FO which might lead one to think that Justine has probably eclipsed the sisters atleast in this regard: Here are some of her statments (paraphrased ofcourse)
"I am intelligent unlike other players"
"I don't only use my muscle unlike other players"
"Power players are scared of me"
....

So, where is Justine's arrogance in the spectrum? 10% below the sisters, at 50 %, at the same level, at 200%?

The Williams sisters are not one entity. Venus, although perhaps the original in this case, does not make any arrogant self absorbed statements except when pushed into a corner. She turns up, puts up and shuts up.

Serena and Justine are both as bad as each other. I laugh at those complaining about double standards though because those people standing here attacking Justine are probably the same people who defended Serena :rolleyes:. Make up your minds.

They both talk along the same vein - either they're both arrogant or they're not.

I think they both could learn a thing or two from the likes of Venus, but in the end it's hard to argue with their results this year so maybe it's just something that comes with the territory of being at the top.

doloresc
Aug 19th, 2003, 11:22 AM
What do you think? She made a lot of statements after the FO which might lead one to think that Justine has probably eclipsed the sisters atleast in this regard: Here are some of her statments (paraphrased ofcourse)
"I am intelligent unlike other players"
"I don't only use my muscle unlike other players"
"Power players are scared of me"
....

So, where is Justine's arrogance in the spectrum? 10% below the sisters, at 50 %, at the same level, at 200%?

i have no idea but i do know that english is henin-hardenne's third language so "I am intelligent unlike other players" or "I don't only use my muscle unlike other players" may read differently in french or dutch.

The Crow
Aug 19th, 2003, 11:27 AM
+ dolores, eta psi has paraphrased even what Henin said (making it more extreme).

broncosven
Aug 19th, 2003, 11:30 AM
pure and simple

NO ONE will ever be as arrogant as the williams sisters

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 11:32 AM
so from on I can say everything on this board since on my first highschool diplom english was my fourth language grade wise(third in the second) so when people get mad at me. I don't mean it this way it just reads different in dutch or german.

:yippee: :yippee:

:lol:

jujufan
Aug 19th, 2003, 11:36 AM
It is true that you can never express yourself the same way in different languages.
It is a huge factor ...

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 11:39 AM
if I say you are a bitch or I say je bent een kreng really makes no difference

(just an example)

jujufan
Aug 19th, 2003, 11:42 AM
That sentence yes.
But some expressions have a slightly different meaning altough the translation is directly the same...
I just want to say that you have to be aware of those differences and keep in mind that the translation might change stuff

Schalckske
Aug 19th, 2003, 11:44 AM
if I say you are a bitch or I say je bent een kreng really makes no difference

(just an example)

Things like fuck, bitch, etc etc... you hear every day, but expressions you want to use to give a more complicated answer in an interview are often harder to learn in a different language imo

(great examples of such expressions and sentences in the good english thread in non-tennis btw)

great smash
Aug 19th, 2003, 11:46 AM
if I say you are a bitch or I say je bent een kreng really makes no difference

(just an example)

Maybe but this still requires you to be fully aware that bith and kreng could be considered equivalents, which is often not the case.

As Henin's English is still far from perfect, she's still limited in her choice of words leading to the wrong use sometimes.

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 11:47 AM
well I said before justine didn't say others were not intelligent. she was talking about using it on court so that was indeed not a fair translation but that also happens with english quotes which are pushed to a way the person wants to understand it. that is not only because of language difference!

Kart
Aug 19th, 2003, 11:48 AM
Justine's English is not that bad that she doesn't know what she's saying.

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 11:49 AM
my english is limited too but I still know what I say even when it sounds weird sometimes;)

great smash
Aug 19th, 2003, 11:50 AM
well I said before justine didn't say others were not intelligent. she was talking about using it on court so that was indeed not a fair translation but that also happens with english quotes which are pushed to a way the person wants to understand it. that is not only because of language difference!

Sure but at least if you can find the original quotes, at least a native speaker of that language will be able to asses the quote as it was meant. Whenever translation is involved intentions go lost.

I remember back at the French Serena made a perfectly harmless comment with regard to the USA-France relationship, but the way it ended up in a French article was a lot less positive.

jujufan
Aug 19th, 2003, 11:51 AM
But she still translate too directly from french, for example her "for sure"

Kart
Aug 19th, 2003, 11:51 AM
irma your english is excellent. Better than a lot of people in England believe me.

great smash
Aug 19th, 2003, 11:53 AM
Justine's English is not that bad that she doesn't know what she's saying.

What she's saying maybe yes, but it still might come across diferent from how she meant it to be. It's the stress you put on certain things, you fail to do in other languages.

And already the fact that the actual quotes have been paraphrased show you what a small difference does to the meaning of a sentence.

Kart
Aug 19th, 2003, 11:57 AM
What she's saying maybe yes, but it still might come across diferent from how she meant it to be. It's the stress you put on certain things, you fail to do in other languages.

And already the fact that the actual quotes have been paraphrased show you what a small difference does to the meaning of a sentence.

Surely it's the context that's the key though. From what I've seen of Justine in interview she's more than able of answering the questions put to her and more importantly she understands what's put to her so she presumably understands what she's saying. Stress is not as important as vocabulary.

All these quotes though are missing the whole interview which is the problem ... take anyone's quotes out of context and it's open to misinterpretation.

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 11:58 AM
irma your english is excellent. Better than a lot of people in England believe me.

thanks. :angel:

doloresc
Aug 19th, 2003, 11:59 AM
Maybe but this still requires you to be fully aware that bith and kreng could be considered equivalents, which is often not the case.

As Henin's English is still far from perfect, she's still limited in her choice of words leading to the wrong use sometimes.

exactly! whenever henin-hardenne is interviewed on american tv, i turn on the close caption because i can't always understand her (i do this with other players including those that are native english speakers). it is noticeable with henin-hardenne that her vocabulary is limited so i take that into consideration with quotes from her that could be deemed "controversial" to native english speakers.

doloresc
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:04 PM
Surely it's the context that's the key though. From what I've seen of Justine in interview she's more than able of answering the questions put to her and more importantly she understands what's put to her so she presumably understands what she's saying. Stress is not as important as vocabulary.

All these quotes though are missing the whole interview which is the problem ... take anyone's quotes out of context and it's open to misinterpretation.

i don't know henin-hardenne's academic background but as a i told a dutch poster on another thread, there's a difference, for example, between "i demand you to do something" and "i expect you to do something". henin-hardenne strikes me at not knowing the difference between the two and will may make mistakes in her intent with english because she's thinking in french and making literal translations that can occasionally come across as "aggressive" in english.

Maajken
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:06 PM
are you guys even sure justine said those things in english? for all you know she said them in french and were translated (correct or not) by some journalist.

i think the foreign language excuse is way overrated. you can perfectly say what you want to say with a limited vocabulary :rolleyes:

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:10 PM
Ik eis iets van je
Ik verwacht iets van je

that's a different thing in dutch too and I doubt it's different in french.

doloresc
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:13 PM
are you guys even sure justine said those things in english? for all you know she said them in french and were translated (correct or not) by some journalist.

i think the foreign language excuse is way overrated. you can perfectly say what you want to say with a limited vocabulary :rolleyes:

i disagree. considering that the majority of tennis players didn't graduate from high school, i wouldn't count on them as being the most articulate people (it's true of other sports as well). in english, henin-hardenne gives a standard interview. she's not terribly expressive so as i said before, her fractured english (that's being put together with a french mindset) can misconstrue her intentions.

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:24 PM
I am sure traveling the world spending a lot of time in english speaking country's is better for your english then a few years in highschool.

Kart
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:29 PM
i don't know henin-hardenne's academic background but as a i told a dutch poster on another thread, there's a difference, for example, between "i demand you to do something" and "i expect you to do something". henin-hardenne strikes me at not knowing the difference between the two and will may make mistakes in her intent with english because she's thinking in french and making literal translations that can occasionally come across as "aggressive" in english.

Why does it strike you that she does noy know the difference ?

DunkMachine
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:31 PM
It is definately overrated. What else could she try to say. At first I thought she mite want to say something in the line of: "My gameplay on court is much smarter than other top players". This would be a bit arrogant still but a correct assumption. But saying "I'm much more intelligent than other players" is something completely different.

Her english isn't that bad. Besides if I've learned one thing about speaking difficult foreign languages, it is that you should"never try to explain antyhing that is complicated in a language that you do not fully posess".

Maajken
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:34 PM
anyway...giving an interview is not the same as writing an essay or giving a presentation in perfect english. how difficult can it be to talk about sth like tennis for god's sake!

Josh
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:36 PM
But saying "I'm much more intelligent than other players" is something completely different.

For the last time : she didn't say that! That was eta-psi' unbiased interpretation. What she really sad was : "Some people try to beat me with power but I use my intelligence to answer them."

doloresc
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:43 PM
I am sure traveling the world spending a lot of time in english speaking country's is better for your english then a few years in highschool.

not necessarily. a player is speaking english often with players whose first language is NOT english so they may be picking up mistakes (bad habits) and even passing these mistakes on to other players.

doloresc
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:45 PM
Why does it strike you that she does noy know the difference ?

it strikes me that she wouldn't know the difference because henin-hardenne's english (in live interviews and transcripts) has always seem fractured to me.

DunkMachine
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:47 PM
For the last time : she didn't say that! That was eta-psi' unbiased interpretation. What she really sad was : "Some people try to beat me with power but I use my intelligence to answer them."

Oh ok, than I withdraw my comments.

starr
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:48 PM
Nevermind, Josh. You must have noticed that many on this board will believe what they want to believe even when confronted with the truth.

It is a well known psychological phenomenon and stems from people needing to believe in a myth to sustain their identity and sense of worth. It is more flagrantly displayed on this board, but once you have noted it, you will see it everywhere. When the myth is threatened by the truth, the believers in the myth become angry and agressive. This can also be witnessed in much of what passses for politics today. :)

doloresc
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:49 PM
anyway...giving an interview is not the same as writing an essay or giving a presentation in perfect english. how difficult can it be to talk about sth like tennis for god's sake!

it's not discussing tennis (strokes, strategy, training). it's making comments that were (mis)quoted here because the intent was potentially misconstrued.

super maeike, in case it's lost in the translation (haha), i'm defending henin-hardenne. :)

starr
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:52 PM
dolores, you make many good points, but unfortunately, unless people have had the experience of having spoken a foreign language and having discovered that they are only able to express themselves bluntly without all the nuances of their native language, they are simply not going to understand. And then there are those who simply don't want to understand. :)

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:52 PM
not necessarily. a player is speaking english often with players whose first language is NOT english so they may be picking up mistakes (bad habits) and even passing these mistakes on to other players.

there you have a point. I always thought biasm was the translation for vooroordeel but last week spirit was laughing me out so I checked the dictionary and there is no m at all. I must have gotten that idea from somewhere and I am sure it's this board :p

doloresc
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:57 PM
dolores, you make many good points, but unfortunately, unless people have had the experience of having spoken a foreign language and having discovered that they are only able to express themselves bluntly without all the nuances of their native language, they are simply not going to understand. And then there are those who simply don't want to understand. :)

thanks, starr. travelling has helped as well as being american where people take it for granted of how difficult it is to uproot yourself, move here leaving behind loved ones and then have to deal with obnoxious people who yell at you "speak english!". :o

starr
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:57 PM
Irma, you write so well in English. I could not do so well in German.

One of the things I like about this board is that there are people who are communicating in a second language and, in general, people are quite understanding any mistake they make. Sometimes, some of the non-native speakers are writing better English than the native speakers. :o

gentenaire
Aug 19th, 2003, 12:58 PM
not necessarily. a player is speaking english often with players whose first language is NOT english so they may be picking up mistakes (bad habits) and even passing these mistakes on to other players.

That's a very good point! I used to spell definitely as definately and was convinced that was the correct spelling because I'd seen so many native speakers write it like that. Now I only trust books and newspapers, things that have been edited.

starr
Aug 19th, 2003, 01:01 PM
lol lol........ I see that mistake so many times!! Where did it come from? I'm the worst speller in the world so I shouldn't laugh so hard. :)

But even in formal writing one sees dreadful things. I was reading at ******************** and Matt Cronin used "have went" !!!!! The worst mangling of a verb other than "I seen"

doloresc
Aug 19th, 2003, 01:05 PM
does anyone remember the story that bud collins used to tell about sanchez vicario? i wish i could remember the exact phrase (sorry) but bud said that there was this really cute grammatical mistake thta sanchez vicario used to make and when she learned she had been saying it wrong all along, she said: "why didn't anybody ever correct me?!" :)

doloresc
Aug 19th, 2003, 01:07 PM
That's a very good point! I used to spell definitely as definately and was convinced that was the correct spelling because I'd seen so many native speakers write it like that. Now I only trust books and newspapers, things that have been edited.

don't ever trust native english speakers with spelling and grammar! :o

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 01:09 PM
thanks starr I speak dutch though. well I sort of speak german too but my first language is dutch ,then german, english and then nothing but je ne parle pas francais et Je suis Irma.

starr
Aug 19th, 2003, 01:10 PM
And let us not even talk about how many times posters here write "loose" when they mean "lose" even though they get corrected constantly.

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 01:11 PM
english grammar :rolleyes:

as I said a million times before it sucked and I was really not that bad in grammar in the other three languages I had in school especially german wich was known as the most difficult.

starr
Aug 19th, 2003, 01:13 PM
thanks starr I speak dutch though. well I sort of speak german too but my first language is dutch ,then german, english and then nothing but je ne parle pas francais et Je suis Irma.

Yeah, I knew Dutch was your native language, but I couldn't even begin to write anything in that. My second language is German... so that's why I was comparing my German with your English. I can make out a lot of Dutch when it is written, but when it is spoken, I only get isolated phrases and words. Dutch seems to be a meeting place of German and English somehow. :)

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 01:17 PM
true a lot of words have a link to german (of course it's coming from the same source, deutsch, dutch says it already)

and english has clear links to both german and french.

gentenaire
Aug 19th, 2003, 01:20 PM
does anyone remember the story that bud collins used to tell about sanchez vicario? i wish i could remember the exact phrase (sorry) but bud said that there was this really cute grammatical mistake thta sanchez vicario used to make and when she learned she had been saying it wrong all along, she said: "why didn't anybody ever correct me?!" :)

Though I haven't heard this particular story, it's very familiar. I didn't know it was definitely until someone told me. But you never know how someone will react when you correct them. Some might appreciate it, some might be offended.

DunkMachine
Aug 19th, 2003, 01:21 PM
english grammar :rolleyes:

as I said a million times before it sucked and I was really not that bad in grammar in the other three languages I had in school especially german wich was known as the most difficult.

Ugh German grammar is the worst to learn. I shiver just thinking about it. :p My english isn't wat it used to be either.

gentenaire
Aug 19th, 2003, 01:21 PM
true a lot of words have a link to german (of course it's coming from the same source, deutsch, dutch says it already)

and english has clear links to both german and french.

We always say English borrowed half of its words from German and the other half from French

Cybelle Darkholme
Aug 19th, 2003, 01:29 PM
well the best statement that always comes to mind is :

"she thinks she's the fucking venus williams"- i love u irina sprilea 4 having the guts 2 say it :hearts:


uh who else would she think she was, chris everett? what a stupid statement.

also the fact that you admire someone who intentionally ran into another player just to start trouble tells a lot about u and her. Irina sucks. she got outplayed and out thought on that day and couldn't cope so she resorted to gamesmanship and bullying.

starr
Aug 19th, 2003, 01:38 PM
We always say English borrowed half of its words from German and the other half from French

That's what I love best about English. It just gobbles up words from other languages. I think English has about twice the words as most languages because of that. I makes the language infinitely nuanced and the dictionary good reading. :) I'm always finding words I didn't know existed. And then there are all those words that mean exactly the same thing but one is Anglo-Saxon, and the other is from the French... like fall and autumn. Some great sylists of the english language teach that where possible the simpler anglo-saxon words should be chosen rather than the more complicated latin forms.

I marvel at people like ASV who can speak so many languages.

And I love to be corrected when I am speaking German because that is the only way I can really learn. :)

doloresc
Aug 19th, 2003, 02:00 PM
Yeah, I knew Dutch was your native language, but I couldn't even begin to write anything in that. My second language is German... so that's why I was comparing my German with your English. I can make out a lot of Dutch when it is written, but when it is spoken, I only get isolated phrases and words. Dutch seems to be a meeting place of German and English somehow. :)

i'm the opposite, starr. when i see dutch written, i have problems understanding but hearing it spoken i can understand a little bit because i know a little german. the day after the blackout, a few of my neighbors and i watched this dutch film called "zus and zo". while i was watching, i was reading the subtitles naturally but some of the dutch i understood because of the bit of german i know.

doloresc
Aug 19th, 2003, 02:05 PM
Though I haven't heard this particular story, it's very familiar. I didn't know it was definitely until someone told me. But you never know how someone will react when you correct them. Some might appreciate it, some might be offended.

that's true about corrections. it depends on the individual really. personally i don't correct anyone especially non-native speakers because it's one way i can show my gratitude that they are accomodating me by speaking english. :o i know some want to be critiqued and corrected but i just can't do it because i'm not bilingual. :o

starr
Aug 19th, 2003, 02:08 PM
i'm the opposite, starr. when i see dutch written, i have problems understanding but hearing it spoken i can understand a little bit because i know a little german. the day after the blackout, a few of my neighbors and i watched this dutch film called "zus and zo". while i was watching, i was reading the subtitles naturally but some of the dutch i understood because of the bit of german i know.


Oh my god! I watched that movie too, and it was driving me crazy because it seemed like I should be understanding it, but I couldn't!! I just picked up some things here and there... It was like listening to a radio that was fading in and out.... sometimes I could understand and sometimes I couldn't.... and then in trying so hard to understand, I would miss out on reading the subtitles...... So frustrating!! lol

starr
Aug 19th, 2003, 02:11 PM
I try to ask people to correct me so they will feel comfortable. So, I agree with you, I wouldn't really correct someone unless they were saying something awful so that they wouldn't say it again to someone else and get into a big misunderstanding. I would wait until they asked me to give them correction.

But for a year, I ate lunch several times a week with a German speaker and he would always correct all my mistakes. It was great.

gentenaire
Aug 19th, 2003, 02:11 PM
You get Dutch movies with English subtitles? :D

doloresc
Aug 19th, 2003, 02:38 PM
Oh my god! I watched that movie too, and it was driving me crazy because it seemed like I should be understanding it, but I couldn't!! I just picked up some things here and there... It was like listening to a radio that was fading in and out.... sometimes I could understand and sometimes I couldn't.... and then in trying so hard to understand, I would miss out on reading the subtitles...... So frustrating!! lol

hahaha. :) it was the same for me (the radio fading in and out analogy) but i was quick to read the subtitles to see if i understood it correctly. :)

doloresc
Aug 19th, 2003, 02:43 PM
You get Dutch movies with English subtitles? :D

beggin beguine, all foreign films are shown in their original language (even if you rent it on dvd/video or see it on cable). :) the only times i've seen them dubbed is when they used to run those chinese kung fu films on tv on weekend afternoons. i have a swiss friend who's currently living in italy and she's rather frustrated because they dub everything and she said it's terrible to see some of her favorite english actors such as maggie smith and not hear their natural voices. :o

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 02:43 PM
I always use subtitles when I watch the bbc. it's much easier that way

jenny161185
Aug 19th, 2003, 02:46 PM
All the players have a certain amount of arrogance - its what makes them so fun to listen to and read their comments , it doesn t mean they're not nice people :)

Cariaoke
Aug 19th, 2003, 02:46 PM
what about dvd subtitles/dubbing?

I need to go home and watch some but I'll ask anyway; is the dubbing good when you choose another language? I think it was my Ever After DVD with Drew Barrymore and the French actors were really good with their timing from what I can remember.

gentenaire
Aug 19th, 2003, 02:53 PM
beggin beguine, all foreign films are shown in their original language (even if you rent it on dvd/video or see it on cable). :) the only times i've seen them dubbed is when they used to run those chinese kung fu films on tv on weekend afternoons. i have a swiss friend who's currently living in italy and she's rather frustrated because they dub everything and she said it's terrible to see some of her favorite english actors such as maggie smith and not hear their natural voices. :o

That's good to know. It helps a lot in learning a language. Fortunately, we get everything in the original version as well. I'd never watch a dubbed movie, it's just too horrible. Children's movies are dubbed, for obvious reasons, but even then they'll show the original version in a different theatre for the adults.

The Crow
Aug 19th, 2003, 02:56 PM
I always use subtitles when I watch the bbc. it's much easier that way

Me too. Otherwise it goes a bit too quick sometimes ;)

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 02:58 PM
in my memory it was different as a kid but they repeated emile van de hazelhoeve here and that was not dubbed but some man spoke over it, same happened with lotte uit de kabaalstraat. that sounds so stupid :o

doloresc
Aug 19th, 2003, 03:02 PM
what about dvd subtitles/dubbing?

I need to go home and watch some but I'll ask anyway; is the dubbing good when you choose another language? I think it was my Ever After DVD with Drew Barrymore and the French actors were really good with their timing from what I can remember.

cariosity, i've never tried with dvds but that's because i never wanted to (no offense). i think it's best to see films in their native tongue.:)
it has nothing to do with being in sync with the film. drew barrymore, your example, has a particular voice and her performance may be lost or disjointed when it's vocalized by a foreign actress.

beggin beguine, that's exactly why the dutch, the belgians and the scandinavians english is better than other europeans. italy and spain, for example, show everything dubbed and that's really too bad. i can only imagine what jim carrey sounds like in catalan. :lol:

decemberlove
Aug 19th, 2003, 03:07 PM
films are so much better in their native language. in a real good foreign film, sometimes i dont even need the subtitles cos you can feel the emotion through the actors [like in amores perros].

i get the two hbo spanish channels and basically everything is dubbed... its HORRIBLE.

doloresc
Aug 19th, 2003, 03:09 PM
films are so much better in their native language. in a real good foreign film, sometimes i dont even need the subtitles cos you can feel the emotion through the actors [like in amores perros].

i get the two hbo spanish channels and basically everything is dubbed... its HORRIBLE.

oh that's too bad. fortunately, ifc and bravo do not dub and neither does pbs.

gentenaire
Aug 19th, 2003, 03:10 PM
cariosity, i've never tried with dvds but that's because i never wanted to (no offense). i think it's best to see films in their native tongue.:)
it has nothing to do with being in sync with the film. drew barrymore, your example, has a particular voice and her performance may be lost or disjointed when it's vocalized by a foreign actress.

Exactly! And not only that. A lot gets lost in the translation. Some things simply can't be translated, such as puns. I'm thinking of this silly joke in the Lion King.

Pumbaa, noticing Simba is feeling low, "Hey, what's eating you?"

Timon: "Nothing, he's at the top of the food chain!"

The joke is that the first sentence has two different meanings. But when you try to translate it to another language, the sentence will have only one meaning. The translators have to choose between one of the two, either way, the joke doesn't make much sense in a different language.

irma
Aug 19th, 2003, 03:17 PM
they just often turn the whole thing around then. I don't know about this one since I have the lion king in english without subtitles (it was on sale;)) you often see that with subtitles too. that they say something totally different on tv then what they actually translate.

Daniel
Aug 19th, 2003, 03:21 PM
What do you think? She made a lot of statements after the FO which might lead one to think that Justine has probably eclipsed the sisters atleast in this regard: Here are some of her statments (paraphrased ofcourse)
"I am intelligent unlike other players"
"I don't only use my muscle unlike other players"
"Power players are scared of me"
....

So, where is Justine's arrogance in the spectrum? 10% below the sisters, at 50 %, at the same level, at 200%?

No, she is so sweet :kiss: :kiss:

Serendy Willick
Aug 19th, 2003, 06:49 PM
Hehehehe. Do you know what I find funny? Is that whenever Justine and Hingis can make these kind of statements, its "The tour is getting its edge back" :rolleyes: and "They are just being honest, :rolleyes: thats what so great about them." Serena, and Venus says anything remotely close to that? Then you have idiots like John McPissenroe trying to tell them that they dont respect the sport and that they need to "get some class" (like this man of all people can tell ANYONE, ANYTHING about class)

Shuji Shuriken
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:12 PM
For the last time : she didn't say that! That was eta-psi' unbiased interpretation. What she really sad was : "Some people try to beat me with power but I use my intelligence to answer them."
Shows just how "intelligent" she is when she plays the likes of Venus Williams :p :lol:

Diya
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:15 PM
Some of these Williams fans act like Justine WILL NEVER beat Venus again.......LOL :lol:

SJW
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:15 PM
shes arrogant but its funny :p

SJW
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:16 PM
btw LMAO @ Justine getting a 4 page thread dedicated to her

i guess people love to loathe her aswell

Shuji Shuriken
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:17 PM
she must be thick as a brick for coming up with the wrong answers time after time :haha:. off to detention for you justine :lol:. plus extra homework :p :lol:

Ukari
Aug 19th, 2003, 07:21 PM
williams sisters aren't liars , cheats , dishonest and arrogants.
They are the best of the best.
Nuff.

Jakeev
Aug 19th, 2003, 08:22 PM
pure and simple

NO ONE will ever be as arrogant as the williams sisters

See another person confusing arrogance with confidence.......back up your statement would you.

Cybelle Darkholme
Aug 19th, 2003, 08:38 PM
To me its confident to say what you can do, how you can do it and what you need to do to get it done.

Its arrogant to talk about other people and say you are smarter, they are afraid of you, etc..etc... when you're that bigheaded that you feel you have to tell other people what they are thinking well how arrogant can you get?

its the difference between:

I'm going to win this match.

versus.

That girl has no chance against me.

or

In my mind I feel I am the number one player.

versus.

All those other girls suck and are afraid of me.

If you cant see the difference then your rose colored glasses are too thick.