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shap_half
Aug 17th, 2003, 07:26 PM
Justine's all time record against the Russian is no 28-2 with her losses coming to Dementieva this year and Myskina last year.
2002 Pilot Pen df. by Anastasia Myskina 6-7(2) 2-6
2003 Amelia Island df. by Elena Dementieva 6-3 4-6 5-7

Her all time record in finals is now 12-8
her losses>
2001 Wimbledon df. by Venus Williams 1-6 6-3 0-6
2001 Big Island Championships df. by Sandrine Testud 3-6 0-2* retired
2001 Porsche Tennis Grand Prix df. by Lindsay Davenport 5-7 4-6
2002 Gold Coast df. by Venus Williams 5-7 2-6
2002 Antwerp df. by Venus Williams 3-6 7-5 3-6
2002 Amelia Island df. by Venus Williams 6-2 5-7 6-7(5)
2002 Italian Open df. Serena Williams 6-7(6) 4-6
2003 Ordina Open df. by Kim Clijsters 7-6, 0-3* retired
This year alone it is 6-1
Ordina Open df. by Kim Clijsters 7-6, 0-3* retired

Hingiswinsthis
Aug 17th, 2003, 07:29 PM
nice numbers for JuJu;) she entered this year with a LOSING record in finals, but its nice that she corrected that;) Justine is only 21, but she's got some huge titles already to her name!

shap_half
Aug 17th, 2003, 07:31 PM
I honestly think that Justine will become a more successful player than Kim. I mean Justine wins a title first, wins a Tier 1 first, wins a Grand Slam first, and has more tier 1s and has more wins over those who are ranked above her. Kim on the otherhand has the #1 ranking on paper but doesn't play like a number 1.

rhz
Aug 17th, 2003, 07:35 PM
and 4 of her losses were against Venus. i want to see a rematch against Venus. 2 of her losses she had to retired because of injuries.

bandabou
Aug 17th, 2003, 07:36 PM
I honestly think that Justine will become a more successful player than Kim. I mean Justine wins a title first, wins a Tier 1 first, wins a Grand Slam first, and has more tier 1s and has more wins over those who are ranked above her. Kim on the otherhand has the #1 ranking on paper but doesn't play like a number 1.

some very true words! Plus Justineīs a surface where sheīs much better than the rest:Clay. Almost her titles all on her clay....whereas Kimīs good on almost all surfaces but she isnīt the best at none of them.

Sheīs good on clay, but Jujuīs better. Kimīs good on hardcourts, but the sisters are MUCH better.....that wonīt win you any titles. You have to have surface when you RULE. Like Graf had grass, seles had rebound ace and the sisters have any thing thatīs fast: Grass,hardcourts...

So Kimīs best hope may well be rebound ace, but the sisters can play there too...

bandabou
Aug 17th, 2003, 07:39 PM
and 4 of her losses were against Venus. i want to see a rematch against Venus. 2 of her losses she had to retired because of injuries.

Yep, that would be a rematch.....but I think she hates playing against Venus. Juju and Venus both like the backhand but Venus is more powerful...and Juju hates players who can beat her with a backhand. Sheīs the only player besides Venus to defeat Serena twice in a final...pretty cool...now if only she could meet Serena on hardcourt to settle that score.

Hingiswinsthis
Aug 17th, 2003, 07:43 PM
yea, half of Justine's titles this year were on hard courts :rolleyes: so much for being just a clay courter.....

shap_half
Aug 17th, 2003, 07:44 PM
yea, half of Justine's titles this year were on hard courts :rolleyes: so much for being just a clay courter.....

That's actually very interesting.

Justine has three hardcourt tournaments and three clay tournaments won this year. And would have had a grass tournament if she hadn't had to retire

great smash
Aug 17th, 2003, 07:45 PM
That's actually very interesting.

Justine has three hardcourt tournaments and three clay tournaments won this year. And would have had a grass tournament if she hadn't had to retire

That's rediculous. Matches need to be completed before calling the outcome.

shap_half
Aug 17th, 2003, 07:48 PM
That's rediculous. Matches need to be completed before calling the outcome.

So since it wasn't completed, Kim is not the winner either?

I think Justine was in a better position to win that match than Kim. Justine has defeated Kim in 2001 in the very same final. Justine up to that point, had never lost a final to Kim. So I think my assumption is quite accurate

great smash
Aug 17th, 2003, 07:51 PM
So since it wasn't completed, Kim is not the winner either?

I think Justine was in a better position to win that match than Kim. Justine has defeated Kim in 2001 in the very same final. Justine up to that point, had never lost a final to Kim. So I think my assumption is quite accurate

I'm not claiming Kim would have won. However Henin barely won the first and was down a break in the second at the time the injury happened. Hardly a sure win...

XMan
Aug 17th, 2003, 07:52 PM
I honestly think that Justine will become a more successful player than Kim. I mean Justine wins a title first, wins a Tier 1 first, wins a Grand Slam first, and has more tier 1s and has more wins over those who are ranked above her. Kim on the otherhand has the #1 ranking on paper but doesn't play like a number 1.

Yes but Kim was always one step ahead in the rankings. And Kim was the first to reach the final of a tier II, a tier I and a grand slam. And Kim has won 16 titles, Justine 12. Of course, Justine won a slam but on the other hand, Kim won the WTA championships. Kim is leading in the head-to-head standings: 8-5. It's true that Kim has a bad record against Justine and the Williams this year but on the other hand she hasn't much problems with the rest of the field. Actually, she had no problems at all with the rest, she is probably the player with shortest average match duration. And she did prove already that she can beat the Williams and Justine. At this moment, she has a mental disadvantage against the Williams and Justine but that's something that can chance in an instant. So who will have the best career? I bet on Kim but it could be close.

bandabou
Aug 17th, 2003, 07:54 PM
I'm not claiming Kim would have won. However Henin barely won the first and was down a break in the second at the time the injury happened. Hardly a sure win...

She was down a break in the first set too and look who won it....

Hingiswinsthis
Aug 17th, 2003, 07:55 PM
doesn't matter.........as long as she wins, in this case Justine does that;)

irma
Aug 17th, 2003, 07:56 PM
life is not black or white :o

great smash
Aug 17th, 2003, 07:56 PM
She was down a break in the first set too and look who won it....

Stop this! She wasn't a sure winner, that's all.

In the same way I regret Kim never got a chance to show she could have won that Masters semi. We'll never found out but just as Kim could have won that final without the default, she could have defeated Venus in LA.

It's a pitty she won by default, just not fair claiming she wouldn't have otherwise.

Rtael
Aug 17th, 2003, 07:58 PM
pfff....Justine has THREE Tier I's this year alone! And not only that she has a Grand Slam. Kim Can't claim either of those things. Kim also can't claim a winning record this year against formewr #1 two-time slam winner Serena W. And her record is tied 3-3 against Justine this year (only people desparate for a win actually include retires). Soon Justine will hold another slam (unless Venus turns up healthy and match tough) and Kim will lose the two things she has that mean anything, the #1 ranking and the Year-Ends

shap_half
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:00 PM
Yes but Kim was always one step ahead in the rankings. And Kim was the first to reach the final of a tier II, a tier I and a grand slam. And Kim has won 16 titles, Justine 12. Of course, Justine won a slam but on the other hand, Kim won the WTA championships. Kim is leading in the head-to-head standings: 8-5. It's true that Kim has a bad record against Justine and the Williams this year but on the other hand she hasn't much problems with the rest of the field. Actually, she had no problems at all with the rest, she is probably the player with shortest average match duration. And she did prove already that she can beat the Williams and Justine. At this moment, she has a mental disadvantage against the Williams and Justine but that's something that can chance in an instant. So who will have the best career? I bet on Kim but it could be close.

yes she was the first to get to the finals. but she wasn't the first to win them. Kim could have 9 titles by now and a Grand Slam but she doesn't because Justine beat her in all of it. Justine plays well when she needs to play well. Kim just doesn't. Kim was also a pro a year before Justine. If I remember correctly, Kim was pro in 98 and Justine in 99. All the tournaments Kim won this year, only in two did she have to face either a Williams or Justine and she won one tournament because Justine had to retire.

bandabou
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:01 PM
pfff....Justine has THREE Tier I's this year alone! And not only that she has a Grand Slam. Kim Can't claim either of those things. Kim also can't claim a winning record this year against formewr #1 two-time slam winner Serena W. And her record is tied 3-3 against Justine this year (only people desparate for a win actually include retires). Soon Justine will hold another slam (unless Venus turns up healthy and match tough) and Kim will lose the two things she has that mean anything, the #1 ranking and the Year-Ends

No kidding!! Only player likely to stop Juju right now is Venus...Kimīs still a force, but her mind is a MESS!

irma
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:03 PM
so the wins justine has over kim don't count. we heard the same thing when it was the opposite :o

bandabou
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:05 PM
yes she was the first to get to the finals. but she wasn't the first to win them. Kim could have 9 titles by now and a Grand Slam but she doesn't because Justine beat her in all of it. Justine plays well when she needs to play well. Kim just doesn't.

Exactly....WINNING is the name of the game. Something that Kim ainīt doing! Look at Jujuīs finals record this year: 6-1 and compare that to Kim 6-5....not good!

shap_half
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:05 PM
so the wins justine has over kim don't count. we heard the same thing when it was the opposite :o
why wouldn't they? did kim retire?

irma
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:07 PM
I don't know it wasn't my idea

Hazy
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:07 PM
Exactly....WINNING is the name of the game. Something that Kim ainīt doing! Look at Jujuīs finals record this year: 6-1 and compare that to Kim 6-5....not good!

This just means Kim made 4 more finals this year...

Hingiswinsthis
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:08 PM
Yes but Kim was always one step ahead in the rankings. And Kim was the first to reach the final of a tier II, a tier I and a grand slam.

jeez...wut's next? Kim went to the bathroom first? :rolleyes:

Justine ALWAYS follows Kim's achievements pretty quickly, but just does better at it;) They are both talented players, but at this point in their careers, Justine is just slightly the better player in both on court and in their head in the matches. GO BELGIUM! :bounce:

great smash
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:09 PM
jeez...wut's next? Kim went to the bathroom first? :rolleyes:

Justine ALWAYS follows Kim's achievements pretty quickly, but just does better at it;) They are both talented players, but at this point in their careers, Justine is just slightly the better player in both on court and in their head in the matches. GO BELGIUM! :bounce:

Just as Justine will always be one year older as well...

shap_half
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:12 PM
This just means Kim made 4 more finals this year...

yes losing three to Justine, one to Ai, and one to Venus.
Kim was also in winning positions to make two other Grand Slam finals but couldn't consilidate. And she won't even admit there was something wrong with her mentality. Come on now. If you can't beat a limping girl and couldn't win 1 of three match points, then there is something wrong with you.

Hingiswinsthis
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:13 PM
lol great smash :wavey:

great smash
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:14 PM
yes losing three to Justine, one to Ai, and one to Venus.
Kim was also in winning positions to make two other Grand Slam finals but couldn't consilidate. And she won't even admit there was something wrong with her mentality. Come on now. If you can't beat a limping girl and couldn't win 1 of three match points, then there is something wrong with you.

How quick people forget. Who was it again that lead 6-2 4-0 with chances at 5-0 some time ago in some final??

Just to tell you things do can change (and I give Justine a lot of credit for that), but then why would Kim be able to win the big ones?

Hazy
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:17 PM
yes losing three to Justine, one to Ai, and one to Venus.
Kim was also in winning positions to make two other Grand Slam finals but couldn't consilidate. And she won't even admit there was something wrong with her mentality. Come on now. If you can't beat a limping girl and couldn't win 1 of three match points, then there is something wrong with you.

Yet she has a 60-9 record in 2003, 6 titles, 1 slam F
& 2 SF and the #1 ranking.

Now imagine what she will achieve when she gets her head together...

shap_half
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:24 PM
How quick people forget. Who was it again that lead 6-2 4-0 with chances at 5-0 some time ago in some final??

Just to tell you things do can change (and I give Justine a lot of credit for that), but then why would Kim be able to win the big ones?

Yeah but Justine didn't just beat Venus. Kim just defeated Serena at the Tour Champs and the next tournament they played Kim could have won again. Clearly, things should have changed by now but they haven't.

irma
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:27 PM
justine didn't beat venus either and got her but kicked by serena bad the last time they played

shap_half
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:31 PM
justine didn't beat venus either and got her but kicked by serena bad the last time they played

yeah but was venus injured and did justine have match points against serena and still didn't capitalize. yeah i don't mind saying that serena is a better player than justine. and justine has made a lot of changes to her game since she last played venus. but kim is winning tournaments with hardly any competition and when comepetition comes, she folds like paper.

bandabou
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:32 PM
jeez...wut's next? Kim went to the bathroom first? :rolleyes:

Justine ALWAYS follows Kim's achievements pretty quickly, but just does better at it;) They are both talented players, but at this point in their careers, Justine is just slightly the better player in both on court and in their head in the matches. GO BELGIUM! :bounce:

:lol: Thatīs so true! Like when Kim couldnīt beat Serena this year, she showed her how it should be done. The same thing with Cappy back in ī01.

Serendy Willick
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:34 PM
yeah but was venus injured and did justine have match points against serena and still didn't capitalize. yeah i don't mind saying that serena is a better player than justine. and justine has made a lot of changes to her game since she last played venus. but kim is winning tournaments with hardly any competition and when comepetition comes, she folds like paper.


Justine was knowhere near sniffing a match point against Serena at Wimbeldon.

shap_half
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:35 PM
What I'm impressed with Justine and not with Kim is that when Justine says something like she wants more GS titles and wants to be number 1, she shows the world that she can back that story up. She won two American hardcourt tournaments this year when the best she usually could do was make quarters. she is actually doing what needs to be done to get to where she is. kim decided that it's cute to play 2 millions events in the span of 4 weeks including doubles. and by the time the tier 1 comes along she's bruised up. Justine backs up what she says she wants by making good decisions and learning from her errors, and actually solidifying with results.

irma
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:35 PM
like justine won this tournament without competition?

and san diego she only beat a mental wrecked kim, big deal right?

great smash
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:36 PM
yeah but was venus injured and did justine have match points against serena and still didn't capitalize. yeah i don't mind saying that serena is a better player than justine. and justine has made a lot of changes to her game since she last played venus. but kim is winning tournaments with hardly any competition and when comepetition comes, she folds like paper.

Maybe she hasn't done so recently, which is bad for people with a short term memory, but just take a look at how she won in Filderstadt. A Tier II, I know, but if you take a look at the results, and the way the matches were won, I'd hardly say Kim isn't possible of winning the hard way.

shap_half
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:37 PM
Justine was knowhere near sniffing a match point against Serena at Wimbeldon.

I know. I completely agree that in that day Serena was too good and Justine was nowhere near her best. But that's just my point, when Justine is in a winning position (these days) she does what she needs to do to win. Something Kim has not been able to do against the sisters or Justine. She had match points against Justine at Berlin and she had so many break chances against Justine at Roland Garros. She had a lot of match points against serena and was up by 4 games before folding. And she had to play a broken Venus at Wimbledon and still lost.

bandabou
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:38 PM
How quick people forget. Who was it again that lead 6-2 4-0 with chances at 5-0 some time ago in some final??

Just to tell you things do can change (and I give Justine a lot of credit for that), but then why would Kim be able to win the big ones?

Yep, but Juju turned it around better than Kim. After that match, Justine hasnīt lose a final which she completed!! Kim made the same mistake twice: couldnīt beat a serena with blisters, couldnīt beat a Venus with abdominal strain.

shap_half
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:39 PM
like justine won this tournament without competition?

and san diego she only beat a mental wrecked kim, big deal right?

of course it's a big deal. seeing as how justine was known for losing the first round of an american hardcourt.

what's the matter with most of you people? when justine entered these hard court events everyone was willing to bring up the fact that justine does so poorly on this surface that she will never win or can't beat dementieva, petrova, or clijsters. then she wins, and it's not a big deal becasue kim is a mental case!! think again.

great smash
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:41 PM
Yep, but Juju turned it around better than Kim. After that match, Justine hasnīt lose a final which she completed!! Kim made the same mistake twice: couldnīt beat a serena with blisters, couldnīt beat a Venus with abdominal strain.

I'm sorry but this is really something I've heard enough of. Midway that Venus match she wasn't hampered by that injury too much anymore.

Every time I read she wasn't even able to beat an injured Venus seems to imply Venus was only playing at 50 %. Sorry they way Venus played towards the end was great, I'd hardly would qualify that as hampered by injury.

bandabou
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:41 PM
What I'm impressed with Justine and not with Kim is that when Justine says something like she wants more GS titles and wants to be number 1, she shows the world that she can back that story up. She won two American hardcourt tournaments this year when the best she usually could do was make quarters. she is actually doing what needs to be done to get to where she is. kim decided that it's cute to play 2 millions events in the span of 4 weeks including doubles. and by the time the tier 1 comes along she's bruised up. Justine backs up what she says she wants by making good decisions and learning from her errors, and actually solidifying with results.

Yeah and then Kim comes with the:" I donīt think about rankings and slams." crap! The hell with that. Everybody wants to be no.1 and win slams. Kim comes with the" Iīm so nice" crap!! Hell, even Britney wasnīt such a saint!

irma
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:42 PM
because she is more succesfull at this point doesn't mean she will be forever for sure

see I have all respect what justine did with her career and how she worked on her weak spots but she is not a god and her "unbeatable" run will last till eternity

bandabou
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:45 PM
I'm sorry but this is really something I've heard enough of. Midway that Venus match she wasn't hampered by that injury too much anymore.

Every time I read she wasn't even able to beat an injured Venus seems to imply Venus was only playing at 50 %. Sorry they way Venus played towards the end was great, I'd hardly would qualify that as hampered by injury.

I see the Lei-influence is readily present!!

Serendy Willick
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:46 PM
I know. I completely agree that in that day Serena was too good and Justine was nowhere near her best. But that's just my point, when Justine is in a winning position (these days) she does what she needs to do to win. Something Kim has not been able to do against the sisters or Justine. She had match points against Justine at Berlin and she had so many break chances against Justine at Roland Garros. She had a lot of match points against serena and was up by 4 games before folding. And she had to play a broken Venus at Wimbledon and still lost.


Justine was the only one of the semifinalist to not drop a set so I think she was playing pretty darn good ;)

irma
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:46 PM
of course it's a big deal. seeing as how justine was known for losing the first round of an american hardcourt.

what's the matter with most of you people? when justine entered these hard court events everyone was willing to bring up the fact that justine does so poorly on this surface that she will never win or can't beat dementieva, petrova, or clijsters. then she wins, and it's not a big deal becasue kim is a mental case!! think again.

don't turn it around, people were saying that when kim was kicking justine's ass all over the court that it was not a big deal so I only say why would it be when it is the other way around?

and I never said justine would never win on american hardcourt. I always had the opinion that all topplayer has succes on that surface and didn't think justine would be an exception

great smash
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:49 PM
I see the Lei-influence is readily present!!

You saw Venus in that 3rd set. Did she play at her usual level yes or no?

I absolutely believe she was injured, but I still think they managed to ease the pain momentarily with wathever pills.

That has absolutely nothing to do with Lei claiming she wasn't even injured. She was, the question is, was her level of play towards the end of the match really that much below her usual?

You see I was really impressed with what she showed, but don't tell me she usually plays a lot better (3 set that is)

shap_half
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:54 PM
don't turn it around, people were saying that when kim was kicking justine's ass all over the court that it was not a big deal so I only say why would it be when it is the other way around?

and I never said justine would never win on american hardcourt. I always had the opinion that all topplayer has succes on that surface and didn't think justine would be an exception

i wasn't referring to you in particular but there is a lot of people out there who said just before justine would play dementieva in san diego that elena was too good on hard to lose to justine who has had bad history on this surface. and then she went on to win, but now people are already trying to dimiss that title.

bandabou
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:56 PM
because she is more succesfull at this point doesn't mean she will be forever for sure

see I have all respect what justine did with her career and how she worked on her weak spots but she is not a god and her "unbeatable" run will last till eternity

And we know you know what you are talking about,girl! ;)

bandabou
Aug 17th, 2003, 09:01 PM
You saw Venus in that 3rd set. Did she play at her usual level yes or no?

I absolutely believe she was injured, but I still think they managed to ease the pain momentarily with wathever pills.

That has absolutely nothing to do with Lei claiming she wasn't even injured. She was, the question is, was her level of play towards the end of the match really that much below her usual?

You see I was really impressed with what she showed, but don't tell me she usually plays a lot better (3 set that is)

The third-set is only a fraction of what a healthy Venus can do on grass.
A healthy Venus and Kim doesnīt even win a set.

great smash
Aug 17th, 2003, 09:04 PM
The third-set is only a fraction of what a healthy Venus can do on grass.
A healthy Venus and Kim doesnīt even win a set.

That's where will continue to disagree then. I thougt Venus in that 3rd set was pretty awesome already, playing what she considers a good level.

That's why this will never will be a fair battle. To some Williams fans, it's like every time either Williams loses it will be because they didn't play at their best. By definition a Williams wins every match in which they don't face each other. And that's where things are starting to get ridiculous :rolleyes:

Fingon
Aug 17th, 2003, 09:09 PM
like justine won this tournament without competition?

and san diego she only beat a mental wrecked kim, big deal right?


I am sorry Irma but you have this one wrong.

Yes, Justine had an easy draw in Toronto, compared to her wins in Berlin or Charleston this tier 1 is a lot weaker, I admit that (so was Kim's Indian Wells but her Rome title was pretty good).

There are only two matches where Kim beat Justine when there were "factors" one was the FO semis in 2001 when Justine obviously choked after being up a set and a break.

The other was Rossmalen this year.

I was the first to admit that the ease of Justine's win in RG was due to Kim playing very poorly, which of course doesn't mean that Justine wouldn't have won anyway but we will never know.

But San Diego, give me a break, Justine clearly outplayed Kim there, in the first set Kim was playing well and Justine wasn't, that changed, Justine really got her level up in the second and the third.

Kim has had some excellent wins over Justine.

On the other hand, if Kim is a # 1 player in the world and a win over her doesn't count, then what does?, any tournament won by any player is tainted because beating the # 1 on her best surface isn't good, so nothing is. They should just stop the tour alltogether.

irma
Aug 17th, 2003, 09:10 PM
steffi also won wimbledon being on so many injections that she broke down afterwards

still nobody, but me :p, sees that as prove what steffi would have done when being healthy even when that was proved three years later and she was not even that healthy there;)

irma
Aug 17th, 2003, 09:16 PM
I am sorry Irma but you have this one wrong.

Yes, Justine had an easy draw in Toronto, compared to her wins in Berlin or Charleston this tier 1 is a lot weaker, I admit that (so was Kim's Indian Wells but her Rome title was pretty good).

There are only two matches where Kim beat Justine when there were "factors" one was the FO semis in 2001 when Justine obviously choked after being up a set and a break.

The other was Rossmalen this year.

I was the first to admit that the ease of Justine's win in RG was due to Kim playing very poorly, which of course doesn't mean that Justine wouldn't have won anyway but we will never know.

But San Diego, give me a break, Justine clearly outplayed Kim there, in the first set Kim was playing well and Justine wasn't, that changed, Justine really got her level up in the second and the third.

Kim has had some excellent wins over Justine.

On the other hand, if Kim is a # 1 player in the world and a win over her doesn't count, then what does?, any tournament won by any player is tainted because beating the # 1 on her best surface isn't good, so nothing is. They should just stop the tour alltogether.


of course it counts. justine won those matches fair and square. if kim doesn't take her chances then that's not justine's fault, neither who she has to play in a tournament

but when ever kim beats a player a lot of people always come up with the player is a mental wreck, tired, injured etc or the draw was too ease
that's pretty annoying too. :o

rottweily
Aug 17th, 2003, 10:04 PM
and her "unbeatable" run will last till eternity

Correct ;)

bandabou
Aug 17th, 2003, 10:12 PM
That's where will continue to disagree then. I thougt Venus in that 3rd set was pretty awesome already, playing what she considers a good level.

That's why this will never will be a fair battle. To some Williams fans, it's like every time either Williams loses it will be because they didn't play at their best. By definition a Williams wins every match in which they don't face each other. And that's where things are starting to get ridiculous :rolleyes:

Not true at all. Itīs just that a player like Kim wonīt beat a healthy Venus on a fast surface. Simple. Venus has a huge edge with the serve, her game is more agressive, more court coverage, more athletic...canīt see Kim beating Venus on grass! Hardcourt, maybe..not grass.

Berlin_Calling
Aug 17th, 2003, 10:22 PM
This just means Kim made 4 more finals this year...

And it also means that Kim played more tournaments than Justine this year...

:rolleyes:

great smash
Aug 17th, 2003, 10:29 PM
And it also means that Kim played more tournaments than Justine this year...

:rolleyes:

Well, first that's something not to be concluded from those stats.

Second, she had 4 more finals for 2 more tournaments, if you insist dragging the no. of tournaments along :p

treufreund
Aug 17th, 2003, 10:44 PM
OMG!! I AM SOOOO SICK OF KIM-JUSTINE DEBATES!!! BOTH are AWESOME and SPECTACULAR! Can't we just celebrate how great both of them are???

Toontje
Aug 17th, 2003, 10:46 PM
Kim already played 138 matches within 7 months and 15 days, with a Win/Loss rekord from 125/13!!

Give Kim two weeks rest and she will crunch Justine within 50 minutes, if Justine can reach the US open finals.


Kim Clijsters (BEL) vs. Justine Henin-Hardenne (BEL)

2001-03-05 Indian Wells Hardcourt R32 Kim Clijsters (BEL) 1-6 6-4 6-3
2001-05-28 Roland Garros Clay SF Kim Clijsters (BEL) 2-6 7-5 6-3
2001-06-18 's-Hertogenbosch Grass F Justine Henin-Hardenne (BEL) 6-4 3-6 6-3
2002-01-07 Sydney Hardcourt QF Kim Clijsters (BEL) 7-6(5) 6-2
2002-01-14 Australian Open Hardcourt QF Kim Clijsters (BEL) 6-2 6-3
2002-05-13 Rome Clay SF Justine Henin-Hardenne (BEL) 7-5 6-2
2002-11-04 WTA Championships Indoor Hardcourt QF Kim Clijsters (BEL) 6-2 6-1
2003-01-06 Sydney Hardcourt SF Kim Clijsters (BEL) 6-2 6-3
2003-02-10 Antwerp Indoor Hardcourt SF Kim Clijsters (BEL) 6-2 7-6(3)
2003-05-05 Berlin Clay F Justine Henin-Hardenne (BEL) 6-4 4-6 7-5
2003-05-26 Roland Garros Clay F Justine Henin-Hardenne (BEL) 6-0 6-4
2003-06-16 's-Hertogenbosch Grass F Kim Clijsters (BEL) 6-7(4) 3-0 ret
2003-07-28 San Diego Hardcourt F Justine Henin-Hardenne (BEL) 3-6 6-2 6-3

Kim Clijsters (BEL) leads 8:5

Hard: Kim Clijsters (BEL) leads 6:1
Clay: Justine Henin-Hardenne (BEL) leads 3:1
Grass: Tied 1:1
Indoor: Kim Clijsters (BEL) leads 2:0

bandabou
Aug 17th, 2003, 10:50 PM
Well, first that's something not to be concluded from those stats.

Second, she had 4 more finals for 2 more tournaments, if you insist dragging the no. of tournaments along :p

But 4 more finals but as many titles..that isnīt that efficient!

great smash
Aug 17th, 2003, 10:50 PM
Kim already played 138 matches within 7 months and 15 days, with a Win/Loss rekord from 125/13!!


:eek: :eek:

I wonder what age she will feel like if she were to lose the Championships final to Serena ;)

great smash
Aug 17th, 2003, 10:52 PM
But 4 more finals but as many titles..that isnīt that efficient!

Relative no. are worse, absolute numbers speak to her advantage...

You don't seem to like any statement of mine unless I'm admiring the greatness of the Williams ;)

bandabou
Aug 17th, 2003, 10:57 PM
:eek: :eek:

I wonder what age she will feel like if she were to lose the Championships final to Serena ;)

Or better: What age will she be when she beats Serena again?! ;)

bandabou
Aug 17th, 2003, 10:58 PM
Relative no. are worse, absolute numbers speak to her advantage...

You don't seem to like any statement of mine unless I'm admiring the greatness of the Williams ;)

So now itīs absolute?!

great smash
Aug 17th, 2003, 10:59 PM
So now itīs absolute?!
:confused: maybe a language problem, if not, check your maths!
Anyway good night

bandabou
Aug 17th, 2003, 11:03 PM
:confused: maybe a language problem, if not, check your maths!
Anyway good night

Good night smash. What age will Kim be when she beats Serena again( absolute.)

Sean
Aug 17th, 2003, 11:03 PM
Kim can only beat the same players she cant beat Vee nor Serena apart tour champs last year where serena was completely burned out. and struggles with Juju alot.

Kim is just doing what Hingis did play loads win tournies with weakened fields and stay at the top without winning a slam or beating her greatest rivals to a slam.

bandabou
Aug 17th, 2003, 11:14 PM
Kim can only beat the same players she cant beat Vee nor Serena apart tour champs last year where serena was completely burned out. and struggles with Juju alot.

Kim is just doing what Hingis did play loads win tournies with weakened fields and stay at the top without winning a slam or beating her greatest rivals to a slam.

No kidding....come on Kim. Show us what you really can! :lol:

Knizzle
Aug 17th, 2003, 11:23 PM
Justine's all time record against the Russian is no 28-2 with her losses coming to Dementieva this year and Myskina last year.
2002 Pilot Pen df. by Anastasia Myskina 6-7(2) 2-6
2003 Amelia Island df. by Elena Dementieva 6-3 4-6 5-7

Her all time record in finals is now 12-8
her losses>
2001 Wimbledon df. by Venus Williams 1-6 6-3 0-6
2001 Big Island Championships df. by Sandrine Testud 3-6 0-2* retired
2001 Porsche Tennis Grand Prix df. by Lindsay Davenport 5-7 4-6
2002 Gold Coast df. by Venus Williams 5-7 2-6
2002 Antwerp df. by Venus Williams 3-6 7-5 3-6
2002 Amelia Island df. by Venus Williams 6-2 5-7 6-7(5)
2002 Italian Open df. Serena Williams 6-7(6) 4-6
2003 Ordina Open df. by Kim Clijsters 7-6, 0-3* retired
This year alone it is 6-1
Ordina Open df. by Kim Clijsters 7-6, 0-3* retired

Venus' name sure shows up alot on that list!!!

Toontje
Aug 17th, 2003, 11:36 PM
Kim can only beat the same players she cant beat Vee nor Serena apart tour champs last year where serena was completely burned out. and struggles with Juju alot.

Kim is just doing what Hingis did play loads win tournies with weakened fields and stay at the top without winning a slam or beating her greatest rivals to a slam.

Is it Kim's fault that the Williams sisters withdrawn from each tournament?.............besides,Kim is still young!!!!

When was first and the last time that Justine won from Venus?

shap_half
Aug 17th, 2003, 11:43 PM
Is it Kim's fault that the Williams sisters withdrawn from each tournament?.............besides,Kim is still young!!!!

When was first and the last time that Justine won from Venus?

in 2001 in straight sets...what's your point?
when was the last time kim defeated a healthy venus?
how about kim couldn't even defeat an injured venus?

Toontje
Aug 17th, 2003, 11:57 PM
injured venus :zzz:.....is that news!......she's always injured when she hardly can handle it against Kim! :lol:


Let the Williams sisters play at least 15 tournaments a year!........but I believe they can't!

LOS ANGELES (AFP) - Tennis legend Martina Navratilova has accused the Williams sisters of taking more time off than necessary from the WTA Tour.

"Even without an injury they (Serena and Venus) pulled out of more tournaments in one year than I did in my career," said Navratilova, who has captured a record 167 WTA singles titles and 18 Grand Slams in her 21 years of playing singles.

Speaking after her doubles victory at the Los Angeles WTA event, Navratilova said the Tour's marquee players should play at least 15 tournaments a year. Navratilova mentioned Serena's knee surgery but said the sisters were withdrawing from tournaments even before their recent injuries.

"I think they (Williams sisters) don't play enough and the other women play too much. I think for the top players the number is between 15-18 tournaments," said Navratilova.

Venus, who is ranked fifth in the world, has played just 10 WTA tournaments in the past 12 months while world number one Serena has played in 12 events in the past 12 months and seven this year.

In comparison, Belgian Kim Clijsters played in 22 WTA tournaments in 2002 and 23 in 2001.

Jelena Dokic is considered the workhorse on the Tour, competing in 30 WTA events over the past 12 months.

firefly_ac
Aug 18th, 2003, 01:07 AM
Yup...is'nt it hilarious that kim happens to be the first number 1 without a singles slam...haiz~ Justine should be no.1!

xin
Aug 18th, 2003, 01:23 AM
Just as Justine will always be one year older as well...

Yeah, Kim turns pro one year earlier. Look at Hingis and you know the difference age can make. Especially now we are talking about tennis, where different players peak at different ages.

per4ever
Aug 18th, 2003, 07:12 AM
Kim already played 138 matches within 7 months and 15 days, with a Win/Loss rekord from 125/13!!

Give Kim two weeks rest and she will crunch Justine within 50 minutes, if Justine can reach the US open finals.


Kim Clijsters (BEL) vs. Justine Henin-Hardenne (BEL)

2001-03-05 Indian Wells Hardcourt R32 Kim Clijsters (BEL) 1-6 6-4 6-3
2001-05-28 Roland Garros Clay SF Kim Clijsters (BEL) 2-6 7-5 6-3
2001-06-18 's-Hertogenbosch Grass F Justine Henin-Hardenne (BEL) 6-4 3-6 6-3
2002-01-07 Sydney Hardcourt QF Kim Clijsters (BEL) 7-6(5) 6-2
2002-01-14 Australian Open Hardcourt QF Kim Clijsters (BEL) 6-2 6-3
2002-05-13 Rome Clay SF Justine Henin-Hardenne (BEL) 7-5 6-2
2002-11-04 WTA Championships Indoor Hardcourt QF Kim Clijsters (BEL) 6-2 6-1
2003-01-06 Sydney Hardcourt SF Kim Clijsters (BEL) 6-2 6-3
2003-02-10 Antwerp Indoor Hardcourt SF Kim Clijsters (BEL) 6-2 7-6(3)
2003-05-05 Berlin Clay F Justine Henin-Hardenne (BEL) 6-4 4-6 7-5
2003-05-26 Roland Garros Clay F Justine Henin-Hardenne (BEL) 6-0 6-4
2003-06-16 's-Hertogenbosch Grass F Kim Clijsters (BEL) 6-7(4) 3-0 ret
2003-07-28 San Diego Hardcourt F Justine Henin-Hardenne (BEL) 3-6 6-2 6-3

Kim Clijsters (BEL) leads 8:5

Hard: Kim Clijsters (BEL) leads 6:1
Clay: Justine Henin-Hardenne (BEL) leads 3:1
Grass: Tied 1:1
Indoor: Kim Clijsters (BEL) leads 2:0
:lol: all you can think about are stupid statistics. It's really hard to admit that Justine has become a very competitive topplayer huh?

Keep on dreaming :wavey: I'll think of your stats when Justine won the US open :cool:

per4ever
Aug 18th, 2003, 07:20 AM
Kim already played 138 matches within 7 months and 15 days, with a Win/Loss rekord from 125/13!!


Justine has a 54-7 record this year... just look at the huge difference of played matches :eek:

skanky~skanketta
Aug 18th, 2003, 09:20 AM
um, kim isnt the best on hardcourts or grass or clay, but she's the best on carpet. and indoors.

katrientje
Aug 18th, 2003, 09:29 AM
This thread ain't pretty you guys ;)
Cut the crap, I'd say: amazing stats for both justine and Kim! the girls are doing great!
:worship:

Roland Garros
Aug 18th, 2003, 09:33 AM
quite impressive, those aces Juju :devil:

irma
Aug 18th, 2003, 09:49 AM
justine's therapy sessions really show through her interviews these days.

I am so fast and strong now
my opponents don't matter for matter for me anymore (and then she says they are jealous, she still needs a little work there)
I am a new me
I love myself now

:lol:

(this is not to bash since she did it to become mentally stronger on court wich she achieved)

Toontje
Aug 18th, 2003, 06:09 PM
:lol: all you can think about are stupid statistics. It's really hard to admit that Justine has become a very competitive topplayer huh?

Keep on dreaming :wavey: I'll think of your stats when Justine won the US open :cool:

Wake up.......be pleased when she can reach the semi-finals.

Justine is a competitive topplayer.......but two days of good playing in RG against topplayers isn't enough to be #1.

The Crow
Aug 18th, 2003, 06:52 PM
Justine is a competitive topplayer.......but two days of good playing in RG against topplayers isn't enough to be #1.

Okay I know you want to defend Kim, but this is ridiculous. Only two days of good play :lol: :lol:

Martian KC
Aug 18th, 2003, 07:16 PM
Kim is just doing what Hingis did play loads win tournies with weakened fields and stay at the top without winning a slam or beating her greatest rivals to a slam.

This is the most absurd thing I've read all day. I guess getting to finals and semifinals of grandslams don't help either?!?! At least Martina won the important Tier I titles. Please get back to us when you actually follow tennis.

Toontje
Aug 18th, 2003, 08:51 PM
Okay I know you want to defend Kim, but this is ridiculous. Only two days of good play :lol: :lol:




Watch next week........... she doesn't play in the second week at the US open.



greetings :)

The Crow
Aug 18th, 2003, 08:52 PM
Watch next week........... she doesn't play in the second week at the US open.



greetings :)

So?

Crazy Canuck
Aug 19th, 2003, 06:38 PM
Wake up.......be pleased when she can reach the semi-finals.

Justine is a competitive topplayer.......but two days of good playing in RG against topplayers isn't enough to be #1.
This thread is full of many many many idiotic posts, but this one deserves to be highlighted.