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View Full Version : How many players are really famous and popular enough to draw crowds to a tournament?


CamilleVidann
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:11 AM
I think there's only a handful of them. Most of the casual tennis fans have no clue who the other players are. In that sense, they don't really play a part in promoting the tournament.
Here's my list of the player who sell tickets (wherever there are tournaments): Anna Krounikova..........period.......

ZAK
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:14 AM
Venus
Serena
Anna
Jen
Monica

Hawk
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:16 AM
Well a suppose it would depend on what country you're in..cause the local fav can draw crowds. On a world scale though besides Anna..probably either Williams sister..moreso Serena though I think.

Volcana
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:20 AM
Worldwide, Serena, Venus and Anna K. And Kournikova is fading fast.

In the USA, add Jenn.

CamilleVidann
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:21 AM
Worldwide, Serena, Venus and Anna K. And Kournikova is fading fast.

In the USA, add Jenn.


The Williams sistaz world wide?? That's the most laughable statement I have heard this week so far.

~|Naomi|~
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:23 AM
I think it depends on what country you are in

In australia I would say - but others may disagree

Serena
Venus
Monica
Kim
Anna

then a bit less
Daniela
Jen
Lindsay

tenn_ace
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:44 AM
Worldwide, Serena, Venus and Anna K. And Kournikova is fading fast.

In the USA, add Jenn.

Anna fading fast??? do you have stats to support it?

Amanda
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:52 AM
:tape: @ Camille

:lol: @ Anna period....That is definitely the most laughable statement posted....period!

jenglisbe
Aug 6th, 2003, 04:47 AM
I wouldn't say Anna is fading fast - her WTT team has had its best attendance ever...by a lot

ASTRID
Aug 6th, 2003, 04:59 AM
Im in Australia and I would say Monica and Anna.

TylerDurden
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:40 AM
Anna draws even bigger crowds the worse she plays, because she plays so infrequently. By far the biggest draw ever. Imagine if she made a Slam final. Actually, if Kournikova ever miraculously won a Slam, it would be the biggest moment in women's tennis, ever.

Ballbuster
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:48 AM
Fading fast. How about GONE!!!

Sorry kids....Anna is history. She couldn't pull her game together this year and her fanbase eroded.

Rothes
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:51 AM
Patty is a well known presence in Australia, Not Martina or Anna type flamboyancy, but is well known enough to raise an eyebrow.
Defintly well known in Scandanavia and in Her own Country Switzerland.

TylerDurden
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:52 AM
LOL @ ballbuster, no matter how much she has managed to suck this year, her matches oversell. OVERSELL. It doesn't matter how fast she fades or how bad she loses.

Ballbuster
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:55 AM
LOL @ ballbuster, no matter how much she has managed to suck this year, her matches oversell. OVERSELL. It doesn't matter how fast she fades or how bad she loses.

Dude she is about as washed-up as Ja-Rule. Give it a minute they will both be back and watch their SELL FACTOR.

Rollo
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:06 AM
You were kidding Volcana, right?

Pornikova (oops KOURNIKOVA) is the only one people will pay to see anywhere. When she came to Charlottesville Virginia there were over 2,500 for a first round match in a challenger event. Sorry-but Venus, Serena and Jen don't do that, and we've already seen that they don't sell out in Europe or even in Los Angeles.

I'm not exactly an Anna fan and people aren't coming for the tennis, but facts are facts, Anna sells.

Mateo Mathieu
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:36 AM
I'm Australian and live in the country. I would say Martina Hingis, Monica Seles and Anna Kournikova are very popular in Australia.

BigTennisFan
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:47 AM
When Venus and Serena were announced as Fed Cup players last time, I understand that the tickets sold out very quickly.

Then again the public may have been buying up those tickets in order to see Meghann and Alex. ;)

banana
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:34 AM
Popularity or Notoriety???


I would say the most popular in Australia is: Kim followed by Jen and then Monica

Notoriety: Kournikova, The williams sisters r tied and marty

vs1
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:55 AM
People, all of the stats and research indicate that when people worldwide want to see TENNIS, there are two names that are the biggest headliners: Venus and Serena. Love them or not, people clammour to see these two. When they played Wimbey doubles, the courts were packed! When they play singles, the stadiums are packed. Other players have devoted fans who enjoy watching those players. Venus and Serena have devoted fans as well as curious detractors who watch them play. Years from now, we can all say: Yes, we were there. We were part of women's tennis history in the making. :worship:

Dawn Marie
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:58 AM
The Williams sisters, Anna(although she IS fading)Jen, Monica,Daniela,Kim and Juju,Hingis.

It's not everyday that the hottest superstar in Australia (kylie)goes to watch the sisters play a doubles match. Now V@S are more popular outside the USA than players who are from other countries are to the USA.

Players who are about to become super popular as well and draw tickets.

Chance
Aug 6th, 2003, 09:03 AM
I found this on another board and found it quite interesting.

This is from the April 2003 issue of tennis magazine. Popular Opinion
Who do you love?
The Q Score reveals all

Serena Williams is No.1 on the court and in the hearts of Americans. So says the gold standard of popularity ratings, the Q Score. The number, derived annually from surveys of a few thousand people, is a measure of likability of top sports and entertainment celebrities. Advertisers pay serious cash for the Q's ($14,800 for the sports list alone) to help determine which stars to seek for ad campaigns.

The Q Score quantifies popularity in many categories, including the general public and fans of a particular sport. The number is the percentage of respondents familiar with the celebrity who rate him or her as "one of my favorites." Among active tennis players, Serena Williams was followed by her sister Venus in popularity in both the general-public and tennis-fans categories, according to Steven Levitt, president of Marketing Evaluations Inc., the Manhasset, N.Y., research firm that minds the Q's. The top men were Pete Sampras, Andy Roddick, Andre Agassi, and Lleyton Hewitt. - Kevin O' Keefe

Q Score - General Public - Tennis Fans
Serena Williams 18 - 45
Venus Williams 17 - 45
Pete Sampras 14 - 36
Anna Kournikova 14 - 31
Lindsay Davenport 11 - 25
Andy Roddick 10 - 22
Martina Hingis 10 - 34
Jennifer Capriati 10 - 25
Monica Seles 9 - 27
Andre Agassi 9 - 32
Lleyton Hewitt 5 - 12


Apparently The Q score is considered very important for advertising, esp., and sometimes other things. Advertisers want people they hire to promote their product to be not only known but popular, liked by the public. The Q score is not about just knowing a celebrity or famous person but figures in how likeable by the public they are too. In some of the articles posted here the authors say Venus and Serena will be limited in what they can effectively advertise. But their high Q scores as athletes let advertisers know they're known and favorably perceived by the public.


Now from an Australian perspective Anna, Monica, Hingis,Venus and Serena. This year Kim is beginning to be quite popular as well.

per4ever
Aug 6th, 2003, 09:10 AM
People, all of the stats and research indicate that when people worldwide want to see TENNIS, there are two names that are the biggest headliners: Venus and Serena. Love them or not, people clammour to see these two. When they played Wimbey doubles, the courts were packed! When they play singles, the stadiums are packed. Other players have devoted fans who enjoy watching those players. Venus and Serena have devoted fans as well as curious detractors who watch them play. Years from now, we can all say: Yes, we were there. We were part of women's tennis history in the making. :worship:
keep on dreaming. That might be how it is in the USA, but definitly not in Europe. Btw Wimbly main courts are always sold out :rolleyes:

CamilleVidann
Aug 6th, 2003, 10:03 AM
When will you Williams fans realize that the sistaz are not so popular outside the u.s.a.? They may sell many tickets in the states but that's not always the case in other parts of the world. I don't think they are even famous in Asia let alone popular. Sure, their story is great and worth a lot of attention but the fact is the fact. Anna K is way more popular and sells way more tickets when it comes to martetting the tour worldwide. She may not be as great a tennis player as the sistaz but she plays as big a part or even bigger part in boosting the popularity of the game and tour. In my country, many people know there are black sistaz dominating the sport but are unable to tell them apart from their appearances, let alone their play styles. When it comes to Anna K, she doesn't even have to be recognized as a tennis player cuz wherever she goes, or whatever she does, ppl follow her. It's a bit pathetic given she's actually a pro tennis player who's tryin to be the best at it. But from the marketers' point of view, she's worth cherishing. So, Anna rulez!!!

Petersmiler
Aug 6th, 2003, 10:08 AM
In the UK, I would have to go with the usual, Anna, Venus and Serena, Hantuchova (after all the media frenzy surrounding her weight at Wimbledon) and possibly Jenny.

I have to confess here that most people I speak to here who are not big tennis fans HAVE heard of the Williams sisters! They might know little else, but why else would Channel 4 show a documentary about them?

oddkayla
Aug 6th, 2003, 11:10 AM
The Q score is the very reason that both Venus and Serena earned more than Anna in off-court earnings last year!

doloresc
Aug 6th, 2003, 12:44 PM
Well a suppose it would depend on what country you're in..cause the local fav can draw crowds. On a world scale though besides Anna..probably either Williams sister..moreso Serena though I think.

that's what i was thinking as well. martinez is a marquee name in all of spain. henin-hardenne, clijsters and mauresmo will attract europeans as will the russians. in japan and other parts of asia, sugiyama and tanasugarn can draw good crowds.

Kart
Aug 6th, 2003, 12:59 PM
Williams sisters and Anna K.

Dava
Aug 6th, 2003, 01:02 PM
It depends where the tournament is, certain players are more popualr in Europe then in America. This is even regonized on the WTA commitiment list. Hingis position was changed in America because she was not as popular there, I believe.

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 01:42 PM
Camille i would like to stress the sisters are a big attraction in England too

ive said this before but ill repeat.....women= Anna>Williams sisters>Hantuchova

Jasmin
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:10 PM
The Williams sisters and Anna K.

They may not like them but they go in hopes of seeing a good battle and hopefully for the sisters to be upset.

Chance
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:23 PM
When will you Williams fans realize that the sistaz are not so popular outside the u.s.a.? They may sell many tickets in the states but that's not always the case in other parts of the world. I don't think they are even famous in Asia let alone popular.

Reported earlier
according to the Shanghai tournament director
"She(Serena Williams) is without doubt the most wanted player of every tournament in the world."

Earlier reports in Chinese newpapers said organisers were shelling out 300,000 dollars in apperance fees to Williams.


Also one could say the Gold exempt lists are bascially revealing who the WTA thinks will put bums on seats- Guess who has topped the list in the last 2 years... give you a clue their names started with W.

Anna is very popular, but so are Venus & Serena... depending where you are from, one will be more known.

TonyP
Aug 6th, 2003, 04:10 PM
I think there are about a half dozen in the women's game right now.

The Williams sisters, (but fading because their matches vs. one another are usually duds. TV ratings are down. Until they start producing good matches against one another on a regular basis, their stars will continue to fade as tennis players, although Serena could become famous in show biz, but that depends upon how good she is at that line of work)

Anna (the cover of Maxim proves her drawing power still. Thouands young males would turn up at a tournament just to see her.)

Jennifer (received a lot of publicity for her bad girl days and this lingers. At least, she has an image.)

Seles (a sentimental favorite, but fadding fast because of lack of play and lack of big results)

Kim (just starting to get recognition and some TV coverage. But she may not have the charisma to become a real star for anyone but hard core tennis fans.)

Justine (just starting to get recognitionand some tV coverage. Probably will never become a big star for anyone but hard core tennis fans.)

Davenport (only with hard core tennis fans and much of her fan based was a sort of female sympathy vote)

No one else on the tour at the moment sits people in the stands.

alfajeffster
Aug 6th, 2003, 04:15 PM
Martina Navratilova
Chris Evert
Billie Jean King (as long as a speaking engagement is involved)
Steffi Graf (not that this family needs her money from an exhibition tour)

of the current crop:

Anna, Serena, Venus, Jennifer, and after those 4, it's empty seats, folks!

Legends
Aug 6th, 2003, 04:53 PM
keep on dreaming. That might be how it is in the USA, but definitly not in Europe. Btw Wimbly main courts are always sold out :rolleyes:

Right and this is the same Wimbledon (in London which is England which is in Europe :rolleyes: )that myself and my friend had to queue for over 1 hour to get the RESALE tickets for court two hoping to catch Venus and Serena who were scheduled to play their doubles match last thing. while the stewards were being innundated by request and queries for the 'Williams sisters match' and right next to us the Center court and Court one RESALE queue was flashing by at the rate of a road-runners galore.

Even then on reaching Court two it transpired that a whole multitude of people had not even bothered to seek resale tickets and were themselves queuing up to watch from the stands.

Unpopular in Europe indeed.




oh but considering how reluctant Britain is to join Europe maybe you do know what you are talking about.

Fantastic
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:43 PM
I think a true measure of being "really famous" is if a player is also recognized or talked about when she's NOT on the tennis court.

On a global scale, we're definitely talking about Anna Kournikova here. She is the world's most famous tennis player. She is literally stalked by photographers and papparazzi. She is the most-photographed woman in sport. She has the biggest internet fanbase of ANY celebrity currently out there, and she's given wildcards into tournaments because she's a proven drawcard.

I'm not sure if there's anyone else that is "really famous" but from what I gather, the next level of players down would include Monica Seles, Serena Williams, Steffi Graf and Martina Navratilova. Venus Williams might also make that list as a result of her relationship with sister Serena. The stars of Jennifer Capriati and Martina Hingis is debatable.

As pretty and popular as they were, I really don't think Chris Evert or Gabriela Sabatini could join such an illustrious bunch of names. They certainly don't (IMO) inspire as much conversation as those already listed above.

Rollo
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:50 PM
I'd want Serena first if I were promoting an event. Kournikova sells more tickets for earlier rounds I'm sure, but she gets beaten early these days and the public knows it.

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:59 PM
Right and this is the same Wimbledon (in London which is England which is in Europe :rolleyes: )that myself and my friend had to queue for over 1 hour to get the RESALE tickets for court two hoping to catch Venus and Serena who were scheduled to play their doubles match last thing. while the stewards were being innundated by request and queries for the 'Williams sisters match' and right next to us the Center court and Court one RESALE queue was flashing by at the rate of a road-runners galore.

Even then on reaching Court two it transpired that a whole multitude of people had not even bothered to seek resale tickets and were themselves queuing up to watch from the stands.

Unpopular in Europe indeed.




oh but considering how reluctant Britain is to join Europe maybe you do know what you are talking about.

LMFAO! ok this much is true. court two first thing on the first monday was packed and i was curious to know why....i mean it was only Paradorn vs Hrbaty! so me and my friend, forever the talkative idiots started talking to the crowd in the standing area.....they were there to see Venus :rolleyes: there was a sense of suprise that us lucky buggers only had to pay 14 to see a former champ play her first rounder. this lady next to me said she travelled from LEEDS ( :eek: ) just to see her fave.

then at autograph island everyone was asking for the following people: Henman (obviously) Agassi (obviously) Roddick (Queens champ) and the sisters. so yea Europe doesnt like these brash arrogant kids :rolleyes:

and when the sisters DID finally make their appearance to sign autographs...there was a lot of screaming and a lot of pushing and thats not even including me :angel:

so while some people would LOVE to cling onto this "everyone hates the sisters" theory...im sorry but it aint true :kiss: to the general public, they are still a great thing.

persond
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:06 PM
The Williams sistaz world wide?? That's the most laughable statement I have heard this week so far.


CamilleVidann,

Why are you so convinced that the Williams sistaz ( as you put it) are not popular enough to draw a crowd worldwide...??? Please, I'm really very, very, curious as to your answer...!!!...???...!!!

For, it seems that you are "allowing for YOUR own personal feelings about the Williamses, not what has been shown to be the case, as your reasoning. And, as far as Anna is concerned, again, that reeks of YOUR own personal preference. Maybe, you haven't noticed, but, Anna's stock is slowly, but surely dropping. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Mrs. Peel
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:10 PM
LOL @ ballbuster, no matter how much she has managed to suck this year, her matches oversell. OVERSELL. It doesn't matter how fast she fades or how bad she loses.


People...Americans in particular will always pay good money for a sideshow! :p It's like getting a glimpse of a rare animal on loan from a remote part of the world.....it's called Novelty.

persond
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:16 PM
When will you Williams fans realize that the sistaz are not so popular outside the u.s.a.? They may sell many tickets in the states but that's not always the case in other parts of the world. I don't think they are even famous in Asia let alone popular. Sure, their story is great and worth a lot of attention but the fact is the fact. Anna K is way more popular and sells way more tickets when it comes to martetting the tour worldwide. She may not be as great a tennis player as the sistaz but she plays as big a part or even bigger part in boosting the popularity of the game and tour. In my country, many people know there are black sistaz dominating the sport but are unable to tell them apart from their appearances, let alone their play styles. When it comes to Anna K, she doesn't even have to be recognized as a tennis player cuz wherever she goes, or whatever she does, ppl follow her. It's a bit pathetic given she's actually a pro tennis player who's tryin to be the best at it. But from the marketers' point of view, she's worth cherishing. So, Anna rulez!!!

Can't tell the Sisters apart, but, are able to distinguish the Russians blondes from one another...???...??? Where are you from...???

I bet in Africa or any of the other NON-Caucasian countries, they would be able to tell them apart. I thought this was where you were coming from when I read your first posts, but, only now needed it written here to know what a FOOL you are...!!! Not because you don't like the Sisters, but, because of the obvious RACIAL TENOR of your posts. I still can spot a RACIST no matter where the fuck they hide...!!!! :kiss: :kiss:

TonyP
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:47 PM
While I assumed the question was limited to current players, I have to say that the amount of press Hingis has gotten since her retirement pretty much proves her celebrity.

Hello, the people magazine of England, ran a two page color spread on her in retirement.

CamilleVidann
Aug 17th, 2003, 09:02 AM
Final Consensus:

The Willisams Sistaz never fill the stands!!!

IcePrincess
Aug 17th, 2003, 11:48 AM
If I were a tournament organizer, I would want AT LEAST 3 of the following:

Serena Williams
Venus Williams
Jennifer Capriati
Anna Kournikova

Next in line:

Monica Seles
Lindsay Davenport
Martina Navratliova (doubles)

MONEY TALKS! :wavey:

Sean
Aug 17th, 2003, 12:37 PM
The Sexiest or most controversial players attract the most crowds.

Volcana
Aug 17th, 2003, 03:54 PM
Final Consensus:

The Willisams Sistaz never fill the stands!!!

The Williams Sisters, however, fill stands wherever they go both individually and as a pair.

tommyk75
Aug 17th, 2003, 04:07 PM
CamilleVidann... forget it, it's not worth it.

DEETHELICK
Aug 17th, 2003, 04:41 PM
Venus and Serena are very popular globally as is Anna. I think people underestimate Jennifer's global worth too, as she is also a player that many know of and is exciting to watch. Ditto for Monica.

In addition to these, in Europe especially, Kim and Justine really hold the fort.

So in order:

1) Anna K - the attention she has bought to tennis surpasses anyone else on the planet, male or female.

2) Serena - She;s outgoing, chatty and a World No. 1. Plus I think people want to watch her to see how hard she actually hits.

3) Venus - These days, she is more popular as Serena's sister and in the UK, many of my friends weren't actually aware which one was Venus and if she was a good player!! LOL, I set them right!!

At 3) I'd also chuck in Jen and Monica, their comeback stories are part of tennis folklore and will never be forgotten, and they too can really pull in the fans.

Then on the next level I'd have:

4) Justine
5) Kim
6) Daniela

Brandon85
Aug 17th, 2003, 04:44 PM
jennifer would draw me in :)

Experimentee
Aug 17th, 2003, 04:55 PM
The Willaims sisters are definitely popular worldwide. They are every tournament organisers dream, along with Anna K. After that would be Monica Seles. Those are the players that everyones heard of, even non tennis fans.
The sisters are not only popular in the USA, even in Australia they had the biggest crowds gathering just to see them practise! I swear there are more people watching them practise than there are watching 10 matches on the small courts put together!

Bella
Aug 17th, 2003, 05:08 PM
Isn't it something? The same people who insist Venus and Serena are unpopular use the same heated insistence when asserting that they are the most popular. Is that 'having your [strange] cake and eating it, too'?

JCAP
Aug 17th, 2003, 06:58 PM
In the Uk i would say Danny, Anna K, Jen, and the sisters.

BigTennisFan
Aug 17th, 2003, 07:45 PM
Anna draws even bigger crowds the worse she plays, because she plays so infrequently. By far the biggest draw ever. Imagine if she made a Slam final. Actually, if Kournikova ever miraculously won a Slam, it would be the biggest moment in women's tennis, ever.

The operative word being miraculously. :lol:

CamilleVidann
Aug 17th, 2003, 11:28 PM
The sistaz ain't that popular in many countries.
In fact their domination is making hte game boring to many ppl

SJW
Aug 17th, 2003, 11:44 PM
no

the Toronto final was boring and an insult to the WTA

Runningtennisguy
Aug 17th, 2003, 11:54 PM
Who cares if the Williams sisters don't sell out outside of the U.S. They win stuff...end of story. Can you say that for Kournikova. I'm sure people come to watch her for her athletic ability. PUHLEASE.

angele87
Aug 17th, 2003, 11:59 PM
I think world wide, Anna followed by the Williams Sisters can draw a crowd and then it would vary depending on the country or even continent.

As for who's the player who has the ability to pull in the most people, that has to be Anna, I don't think there's any question about that.

Jamie
Aug 18th, 2003, 12:10 AM
I have gone to see 8 live tournaments (paid good money). The reason:

Martina Hingis was playing. She would be the only reason I would make an effort to see live tournaments. In my opinion, she is what real tennis is all about.

fammmmedspin
Aug 18th, 2003, 12:30 AM
If you mean draws crowds to tournaments rather than TV viewers it depends where you are.Some crowds like national favourites (Zurich=Patty) others just turn up and back players who have won fans there (Chanda = Eastbourne, Hingis=anywhere) Its interesting to note that (sparse) Californian audiences can now cheer Kim over Lindsay and Canadians this week seemed perfectly happy to turn out, cheer and watch Russians and Belgians perform. Some crowds seem to be responding to the return of attractive tennis with longer rallies - interesting to see who the USO crowds like this year. Some US crowds seem partial to the sisters - some obviously dislike them. Wimbledon crowds seem to still like the sisters more than FO ones who seemed overly keen to see anyone beat them.

CamilleVidann
Aug 18th, 2003, 07:23 AM
I doubt it.
The sistaz may be a big crowd drawer in the U.S. but it's not the case everywhere on the earth. They can be the least popular somewhere where they are always booed whether winning or losing.
I like them and always root for them whenever and wherever they are playing cuz they're just amazing as hell. It's good to have such dominant players as your favorites cuz you can always enjoy victory.

Whatzup
Aug 18th, 2003, 11:22 AM
Anna Kournikova, Serena and Venus! :D

firefly_ac
Aug 18th, 2003, 11:35 AM
It used to be Anna...However i think it's Dani now...Hee. . .

Gallofa
Aug 18th, 2003, 03:07 PM
Well, I think it depends on the country. Take this news from today's paper for instance: "Monica Seles won't play the US Open" that is the news. If you look, right on top of that, on smaller letters it says "Nor will Serena". Obviously, the big name in Spain is Monica, not Serena. Or at least, that is the way the newspaper see it.

Anna K, Conchita and Arantxa are the biggest names in Spain. Followed by Monica.

SJW
Aug 18th, 2003, 03:20 PM
Venus and her boyfriend made the front of a broadsheet paper in England

so no, nobody cares about the sisters outside of the US :rolleyes:

Petersmiler
Aug 18th, 2003, 03:47 PM
Venus and her boyfriend made the front of a broadsheet paper in England

so no, nobody cares about the sisters outside of the US :rolleyes:

Was that today, sweets? If so which paper, I want one!

Paneru
Aug 18th, 2003, 04:30 PM
Venus and her boyfriend made the front of a broadsheet paper in England

so no, nobody cares about the sisters outside of the US :rolleyes:

Certain types of people will never give V&S their due.
This thread is simply used to re-hash another popularity contest debate.

Anna draws on her physical appearance and fashion.

V&S draw on their game, physical attributes, and fashion.


All three are huge draws,
and depending on where you are in the world and people motives for attending, one or two will draw more at certain places than the other and vice versa.

This thing is so tired and played out!

SJW
Aug 18th, 2003, 04:58 PM
Was that today, sweets? If so which paper, I want one!

it was 2 summers ago.....cant remember which broadsheet it was, i just remember i didnt have the patience to deal with the massive pages :p