PDA

View Full Version : Will the US Open crowd finally give Venus respect instead of booing her?


harloo
Aug 6th, 2003, 12:52 AM
The reason why I ask this question is because since everyone has claimed the reason Venus was booed in 2001 semis, and 2002 semis among other matches is because:

1. She is not the underdog, and the poor little girl on the other side of the net deserves support.

2. She is always winning everything, too dominant. She never loses anything and we want to see new winner

3. Venus and Serena are destroying tennis with their dominance
We don't want the Williams sisters to win all the time.

Fast forward 1 1/2 years later

1. Venus has not won a slam in 1 1/2 years losing to her little sister which is a consolation, but not the goal of a champion.
Other girls are being touted as the favorite for the open. They have made Venus the underdog.

2. Venus has been injured and has not won everything as of late, and these injuries has hampered her progress.

3. No Serena here so people cannot cry about how the sisters are destroying tennis at the USO.

Now, if Venus gets booed at the USO now then I know for sure that it's racism and their will be no denying it. Sorry, but if Venus meets up against Justine or Kim and the crowd starts to react like they did in the 2001 semis against Capriati, and the 2002 semis against Amelie then that will confirm it.

JMO!!!
GO VENUS!! :D

Cybelle Darkholme
Aug 6th, 2003, 01:03 AM
she has been cheered at the us open before. in 97 and in and 1999 and 2000. i dont remember 98

cool bird
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:25 AM
LOL DA BACKHAND
But who knows if Venus will be booed. Id worry more abiut Justine to be honest

Vegetable
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:29 AM
LMAO :lol:

Dawn Marie
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:00 AM
Actually Harloo you have a strong case. Of course many already know the truth behind the booing, but maybe others will see the light.

Now what I am actually curious to see and HEAR(if me little ears can stand it)... IS how the biased COMMENTATORS are gonna get out of it. It will be a treat to hear Pam and Mary Jo and a few other dumbasses.. explain away the crowds behavior when they boo Venus, WHILE BEING THE UNDERDOG.

Can't hardly wait.:)

Volcana
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:18 AM
Actually Harloo you have a strong case. Of course many already know the truth behind the booing, but maybe others will see the light.

Now what I am actually curious to see and HEAR(if me little ears can stand it)... IS how the biased COMMENTATORS are gonna get out of it. It will be a treat to hear Pam and Mary Jo and a few other dumbasses.. explain away the crowds behavior when they boo Venus, WHILE BEING THE UNDERDOG.

Can't hardly wait.:)

Forget it. If the other player is Kim or Justine, they'll start out saying they're favored, then after Venus gets ahead, they'll just call Justine/Kim the underdog. Otherwise, they'll just say venus is favored.

Still, cut them some slack. Outside of football (soccer), what sport have you EVER heard a commentator talking about white bias in that sport. Sometimes you get a 'long, long ago there was a problem', but that's about it. Commentators aren't paid to make their sports look bad.

Pam and Mary Jo wouldn't have admitted Althea Gibson faced white racism if they had been the announcers then.

Sam L
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:22 AM
Venus had strong crowd support from 97-00.

Out of the players today she's won the MOST US Opens and has been the most dominant player there in the last 3 years (winning twice and being a finalist last year). I wouldn't be surprised if the crowd supported the underdog (i.e. whoever faced her) again. She's the favourite.

Dawn Marie
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:28 AM
Volcana, I agree they'll play that lil hat trick. By calling KIM AND JUSTINE the underdog if she starts getting ahead and thus more crowd booing.

BUT I disagree about cutting Mary jo and Pam and other commentators some slack. I have seen many commentators state commentatory in an unbiased tone and I refuse to give them dumbasses any slack. They need to give the fans and the T.V. viewers some RESPECT first.

Waiting to see if Mary Carillo and company state ways to beat Kim and Justine. Lord knows how many times she stated ways to beat the Sisters. "You have to keep the ball down the middle" HA HA ..

oh lordy I know I'll be waiting a lifetime. rotflmao.:)

~CANUCK~
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:43 AM
i think you are takin this way out of proportion...u make it seem like everyone in the crowd is booing vee

Knizzle
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:43 AM
Actually Harloo you have a strong case. Of course many already know the truth behind the booing, but maybe others will see the light.

Now what I am actually curious to see and HEAR(if me little ears can stand it)... IS how the biased COMMENTATORS are gonna get out of it. It will be a treat to hear Pam and Mary Jo and a few other dumbasses.. explain away the crowds behavior when they boo Venus, WHILE BEING THE UNDERDOG.

Can't hardly wait.:)

there will be no Pam and Mary Joe unless they have switched over to USA Network. Pam is sometimes a sideline reporter for CBS, but Carillo McEnroe, and Dick Enberg or one other guy(can't think of his name) usually call for CBS. We do have to listen to Tracy Austin though.

Knizzle
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:44 AM
Waiting to see if Mary Carillo and company state ways to beat Kim and Justine. Lord knows how many times she stated ways to beat the Sisters. "You have to keep the ball down the middle" HA HA ..

oh lordy I know I'll be waiting a lifetime. rotflmao.:)

I've been waiting for this all my life also. How to beat Justine and Kim.

Amanda
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:58 AM
Venus has always been a crowd favorite at the US Open.

mishar
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:37 AM
I sure don't remember the crowd booing Venus last year. Sure, they cheered Mauresmo, and you can certainly argue that that is weird/racist/whatever.

But there are a lot of vocal Venus fans at the Open. I've been there every year since 97 and she's always gotten a lot of support. The crowd was definitely rooting for her from 97 through 2000. Maybe the last couple of years not so much. Maybe now more.

Rollo
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:26 AM
So you are saying Venus is now the "real" underdog right Dawn?

Following that logic, I don't expect to hear you in threads about Venus being the "real" #2 ;)

LeonHart
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:30 AM
You ppl keep sayin Serena and Venus are the "REAL" #1 and 2, and in this thread u guys say they're the underdogs? Venus is still the favorite to win the US OPEN IMO.

Knizzle
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:32 AM
So you are saying Venus is now the "real" underdog right Dawn?

Following that logic, I don't expect to hear you in threads about Venus being the "real" #2 ;)

But on the other hand people are sayin that Clijsters and Henin are better than Venus now and that they are definitely the second and third best players, and are favorites to win the Open, but yet they still use the underdog excuse as to why crowds cheer against Venus and Serena.

irma
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:39 AM
venus is not the underdog

gentenaire
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:39 AM
I don't get it, the same people who're saying Martina was the most unpopular player (and now Justine), who post that the Williams sisters are the most popular, those very same people complain about them not being popular sometimes :confused:

Has Venus really received such a terrible treatment at the US Open?

And underdog doesn't necessarily have to mean in every match. When people want someone other than Serena to win, they're not goint to root against Kim or Justine when they're playing a low ranked player because then Serena's main rivals would be out.

Rollo
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:02 AM
Perception is everything Knizzle. Venus is hardly the underdog to the public when she has 5 slams under her belt-more than any other active woman except an over the hill Seles.

If Venus starts losing before finals at the US Open she'll get more crowd support. If I were a Venus fan I'd rather have her winning than hearing cheers. You don't get both in tennis.

Dawn Marie
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:21 AM
Knizzle well stated and I couldn't agree more/

You better believe that if Kim and Justine won the next 5 slams and Venus won nothing in the next five years .. THAT THE "MAJORITY" of the crowd will still Boo Venus and the commentators will STILL sweep that under the rug. again, I'll be waiting for a lifetime.

I know yah feel me Knizzle:)

SerialKiller#69
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:37 AM
If Venus faces Serena, then Venus is clearly the underdog and expectedly would have the crowd's support. That's the only situation I can think of where she becomes the underdog.

Knizzle
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:52 AM
Knizzle well stated and I couldn't agree more/

You better believe that if Kim and Justine won the next 5 slams and Venus won nothing in the next five years .. THAT THE "MAJORITY" of the crowd will still Boo Venus and the commentators will STILL sweep that under the rug. again, I'll be waiting for a lifetime.

I know yah feel me Knizzle:)

Knizzle "feeling" Dawn Marie ------>> :hug:

Rollo
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:57 AM
You better believe that if Kim and Justine won the next 5 slams and Venus won nothing in the next five years .. THAT THE "MAJORITY" of the crowd will still Boo Venus and the commentators will STILL sweep that under the rug. again, I'll be waiting for a lifetime.

And what is that nugget of wisdom based on sweetie? Other than your opinion-that is.

harloo
Aug 6th, 2003, 04:38 PM
Yes, between 97-00 Venus was not booed at the US Open, but part of that was because she silenced the crowd. Their was really noone who could step to her.

However, what I find dissapointing is that Venus goes out of her way to compliment everyone and that's all she get crap from the crowds, and commentators. And the argument that she was not booed at the US Open from 97-00 does not hold water when she is a US citizen herself.

I wonder why Capriati, Davenport, or Seles has not been booed? Hmmmmmm......???? Capriati especially since she has found every opportunity to diss others.

I don't wish any player to be booed, but I just find it odd that Venus is booed in her own country against a player from another country. And don't act like it does not exist because I tape almost every tennis match. Well at least the ones I can get. :D

CapFan#1
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:07 PM
Yes, between 97-00 Venus was not booed at the US Open, but part of that was because she silenced the crowd. Their was really noone who could step to her.

However, what I find dissapointing is that Venus goes out of her way to compliment everyone and that's all she get crap from the crowds, and commentators. And the argument that she was not booed at the US Open from 97-00 does not hold water when she is a US citizen herself.

I wonder why Capriati, Davenport, or Seles has not been booed? Hmmmmmm......???? Capriati especially since she has found every opportunity to diss others.

I don't wish any player to be booed, but I just find it odd that Venus is booed in her own country against a player from another country. And don't act like it does not exist because I tape almost every tennis match. Well at least the ones I can get. :D


If Venus is recovered from her injury, she is the CLEAR FAVORITE, not the underdog.

I take you to task about your statement that Capriati has found every opp. to diss others. It would take me days to post all the complimnetary things she has said about her opponents, including your beloved venus and serena. It cracks my shit up how jealous you are of Cappy and her successful comeback. Crowds love her because they can identify with her - a human being overcoming the mistakes of their past. The only person dissing others at every turn is Juju. grow up! :fiery:

alfajeffster
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:16 PM
There's that word again, popping it's ugly head up: RACISM

I think the Williams sisters suffer boos for a number of reasons:

1. The tennis public still hasn't forgotten the last-minute pull out from the prime time ESPN semi at Indian Wells;

2. Richard Williams chose to bring them to where they are by using the USTA and the tennis establishment and at the same time not giving anything back in the way of participating in USTA programs or promotions;

3. They are African-American women who have risen to the top of a traditionally white straight-laced prim and proper sport. In fact tennis was for a very long time, THE ONLY sport which was socially acceptable for women to play.

Racism? Yes, from some, but I don't think most of the boos are racially motiviated. Some of the most racist comments I've ever heard regarding tennis and tennis players have come from the mouth of Richard Williams. I think it's just part of the territory- they are at the top, and they did it their way, and many people in the establishment resent this.

doloresc
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:20 PM
i'm realize that you're essentially saying the same thing, harloo, but i am genuinely intrigued to see who the us open crowd supports in the final 3 rounds if venus makes it that far. (i know she will, so please no cries of "foul"). personally i didn't buy the "mauremso is the underdog" excuse from last year but that's just me.

best of luck venus! :bigclap:

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:33 PM
if u have a problem with ur commentators....get bootlegged cable and get British Eurosport....those guys are real fair.

haha@who said "id be more worried about Justine". cant wait to see how the crowd reacts to her

Serendy Willick
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:46 PM
if u have a problem with ur commentators....get bootlegged cable and get British Eurosport....those guys are real fair.

haha@who said "id be more worried about Justine". cant wait to see how the crowd reacts to her


Hmm considering the arrogant US crowd has about 3 US citizens that even have a remote chance in hell of winning the open this year and that all three of those are now nursing injuries, I would hope that the stank US open crowd would give Venus (and Linds and Jenny) some monster cheers and respect. On that last sunday, you may just have another All-Belgian final,so dont fucking pick and choose your champions US citizens :rolleyes: BTW, as for Justine, she'll probably get a standing ovation :rolleyes: had someone pull that ish on their beloved Jennifer, Lindsay, or Ashley Harlkelroad, than the reaction would be different. :rolleyes: :)

DA FOREHAND
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:51 PM
"Actually Harloo you have a strong case. Of course many already know the truth behind the booing, but maybe others will see the light."

Like they saw the light about justine after Ms. Manners accused her of gamesmanship?

Cappy4Ever, you're right the crowd "identifies" with Jennifer, many of them have no clue what it's like to grow up blk. in America. I'm not saying I've had it hard(I haven't)but I'm not going to discount the struggles others have had to face.

persond
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:55 PM
There's that word again, popping it's ugly head up: RACISM

I think the Williams sisters suffer boos for a number of reasons:

1. The tennis public still hasn't forgotten the last-minute pull out from the prime time ESPN semi at Indian Wells;

2. Richard Williams chose to bring them to where they are by using the USTA and the tennis establishment and at the same time not giving anything back in the way of participating in USTA programs or promotions;

3. They are African-American women who have risen to the top of a traditionally white straight-laced prim and proper sport. In fact tennis was for a very long time, THE ONLY sport which was socially acceptable for women to play.

Racism? Yes, from some, but I don't think most of the boos are racially motiviated. Some of the most racist comments I've ever heard regarding tennis and tennis players have come from the mouth of Richard Williams. I think it's just part of the territory- they are at the top, and they did it their way, and many people in the establishment resent this.


Alfajeffster,
RACISM, is only an ugly word to those of you who choose to ignore it, believing that it doesn't exist, not to those of us who have and still do live it...!!!

And, what is it that Richard did to, as you say "use the USTA"...??? Correct me if I'm wrong, but, it was Richards choice to not use the USTA and only let his daughters participate in limited USTA events as Juniors. So, I don't think there's any "credit" to be given an organization he didn't utilize nor trust in...!!! The USTA programs, as far as I know, did absolutely "nothing" for the Williamses, so why should he do anything for them...??? Richard acquired the "help" he needed independent of that organization, by going directly to whomever it was he needed help from. It's my understanding that the USTA thought him unorthodox in the way he was teaching/training his daughters.

And, the argument about the Sisters being at the top and therefore didn't receive "the underdog" status is again, just plain bullshit. Bullshit, that is to explain away the racism of the game. It's as simple as that...!!! No one deserves credit for what Richard has done, except Richard and Oracene Price Williams.

And, as far as the commentators, I don't expect much in the way of change from them, except no "long dissertations on "how to beat the Belgians.

Rollo
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:09 PM
To answer Harloos's question:

It's quite simple really-

With rare exceptions great champions (read-those who dominate) go through 3 cycles.

Cycle 1: Public adores young cute rising star.

Cycle2: Public turns on rising star once she DOMINATES as #1. She is often treated coldly, cheered against, or booed.

Cycle 3: Star gets older. Star gets bumped down by a cycle 1 girl. Roles are reversed and suddenly she is the crowd favorite (again).


Davenport and Capriati don't fit this profile because they never got to cycle 2.

Serena and Venus are in cylce 2. If Venus keeps losing she'll graduate to loved again.

This pattern holds for every female champ I've ever seen, from King, Evert, Navratilova, Graf, Seles, Hingis, Venus, and now Serena.

I've seen EVERY one of them booed and every one gets loved again once she's started losing.

There are no exceptions to this cycle:)

Dawn Marie
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:12 PM
U S Open crowds in the past have not booed Jennifer,Lindsay or Seles WHILE THEY WERE THE OVERDOG. They keep on booing V@S WHILE THEY ARE THE OVERDOG.

I just hope one fine day, many people who do love to watch Venus and Serena and other colorful players can one day have a tennisbox and some good seats. So the majority of those folks who are sitting in the good seats will eventually move their asses over and became a more diverse crowd.

I'll be waiting a lifetime for that as well.

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:18 PM
apparently lot of people hated Monica...my mom told me that when she was at the top, she acted like a spoilt bitch. she told me all these stories which made me laugh, cos they are nothing like monica of today :)

Rollo
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:19 PM
Did you read my post Dawn? Davenport and Capriati are exempt because they have never dominated.

And you date yourself. Seles was booed worse than anything either Williams sister has gotten at the US Open.

She had the crowd against her heavily in both the semis (vs JCap) and Navratilova (final) at the 1991 Open. It was when she was #1 and dominating. Go figure :rolleyes:

Monica was even booed during the presentation ceremony that year. Get a tape and watch those matches. She wasn't always Saint Monica.

harloo
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:20 PM
If Venus is recovered from her injury, she is the CLEAR FAVORITE, not the underdog.

I take you to task about your statement that Capriati has found every opp. to diss others. It would take me days to post all the complimnetary things she has said about her opponents, including your beloved venus and serena. It cracks my shit up how jealous you are of Cappy and her successful comeback. Crowds love her because they can identify with her - a human being overcoming the mistakes of their past. The only person dissing others at every turn is Juju. grow up! :fiery:

CAPPYFOREVER, I am not jealous of Capriati. How can I be jealous of any player I don't know personally? I have to say that Jen has truly reformed from her "bad girl" behaviour. LOL

Also, I am not saying she did not say anything complimentary about other players, but that does not excuse the negative comments she made about others. What I'm saying is that even while she was saying all that, not once did she recieve backlash from the fans. So CAPPYFOREVER that's good for her, but what does it say about the tennis establishment as a whole? And what does it say about the US tennis community as a whole?

I continue to question the boo's even though I know the reality of what's going on, I'm still trying to find out what is the mentality behind it.

alfajeffster
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:30 PM
Alfajeffster,
RACISM, is only an ugly word to those of you who choose to ignore it, believing that it doesn't exist, not to those of us who have and still do live it...!!!

And, what is it that Richard did to, as you say "use the USTA"...??? Correct me if I'm wrong, but, it was Richards choice to not use the USTA and only let his daughters participate in limited USTA events as Juniors. So, I don't think there's any "credit" to be given an organization he didn't utilize nor trust in...!!! The USTA programs, as far as I know, did absolutely "nothing" for the Williamses, so why should he do anything for them...??? Richard acquired the "help" he needed independent of that organization, by going directly to whomever it was he needed help from. It's my understanding that the USTA thought him unorthodox in the way he was teaching/training his daughters.

And, the argument about the Sisters being at the top and therefore didn't receive "the underdog" status is again, just plain bullshit. Bullshit, that is to explain away the racism of the game. It's as simple as that...!!! No one deserves credit for what Richard has done, except Richard and Oracene Price Williams.

And, as far as the commentators, I don't expect much in the way of change from them, except no "long dissertations on "how to beat the Belgians.

I'm not sure what post you were reading, but I don't believe I belong in the category of people who don't believe racism exists. My best friend is African-American, and in fact, I am more comfortable with my African-American friends (yes, it's plural) than I am with most of my "white turkey" acquaintences, to borrow a phrase from Richard.

What I object to is this cry of racism where it doesn't exist, and the bastardization and use of that word unfairly and unjustly, when in reality, the boos that the Williams sisters have gotten don't have anything to do with racism, they have more to do with sexism. They are powerful, outspoken women who have taken their brash, in-your-face rise to prominence to levels previously non-existent in womens tennis. This meteoric rise was accomplished using the training tools sponsored by, and the coaches paid by the USTA on a selective and secretive basis by Richard Williams- have you ever heard Richard, Oracene, Venus, or Serena give Rick Macci credit?

I also can't remember (and I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong) Venus or Serena mention racism or racially motivated crowds they've experienced- it's always been the media and the fans afterwards trying to bring in the RACISM card to blow a situation that doesn't exist out of proportion. They get boos occasionally because from the start (and to this day), they have thumbed their nose at the very same establishment that they have used at their will to get where they are. Tennis fans are more intelligent that the false cry of RACISM every time an African-American gets a boo during a match.

GoGoMaggie
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:30 PM
U S Open crowds in the past have not booed Jennifer,Lindsay or Seles WHILE THEY WERE THE OVERDOG. They keep on booing V@S WHILE THEY ARE THE OVERDOG.

I just hope one fine day, many people who do love to watch Venus and Serena and other colorful players can one day have a tennisbox and some good seats. So the majority of those folks who are sitting in the good seats will eventually move their asses over and became a more diverse crowd.

I'll be waiting a lifetime for that as well.

Ms. Paranoid, please give us an example of Venus being booed at the U.S. Open.

harloo
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:39 PM
To answer Harloos's question:

It's quite simple really-

With rare exceptions great champions (read-those who dominate) go through 3 cycles.

Cycle 1: Public adores young cute rising star.

Cycle2: Public turns on rising star once she DOMINATES as #1. She is often treated coldly, cheered against, or booed.

Cycle 3: Star gets older. Star gets bumped down by a cycle 1 girl. Roles are reversed and suddenly she is the crowd favorite (again).


Davenport and Capriati don't fit this profile because they never got to cycle 2.

Serena and Venus are in cylce 2. If Venus keeps losing she'll graduate to loved again.

This pattern holds for every female champ I've ever seen, from King, Evert, Navratilova, Graf, Seles, Hingis, Venus, and now Serena.

I've seen EVERY one of them booed and every one gets loved again once she's started losing.

There are no exceptions to this cycle:)

Rollo, good analysis but how much must Venus lose? She has lost the last 4 slams. She lost in early at the FO.

So yes your theory sounds logical, but their is also some discrepancies in your logic.

Davenport was the #1 player before, so was Jen(and she was dominant at the time). Venus has been the #1 player not longer than these 2. Yes, she was the best player on the tour for a long time, but did not play enough to be #1.

But what I'm saying is that these two players have never been booed in the USO even when they were FAVORITES.

So while I agree with your logic somewhat, in some cases the situation is different which still leaves the question as too why the booing?

Good post, Rollo! :D

TylerDurden
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:41 PM
I know, neither Williams sister was ever booed at the US Open. Dawn is paranoid and bitter that Venus loses so she needs some crowd support for consolation, and when Dawn doesn't get what she wants, she cries racisim. Typical, can't say I'm suprised, she really gives a bad reputation to other Williams fans, although they help the cause.

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:42 PM
Jen wasnt a dominant #1 :tape:

when she got to #1 (2001 October?) she lost it soon after....then the beginning of 2002 she won the Aus but did fuck all after.

so how can a DOMINANT #1 not win (m)any titles?? (and i say this as a Jen-lover. i jut think your misinformed :))

alfajeffster
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:46 PM
I know, neither Williams sister was ever booed at the US Open. Dawn is paranoid and bitter that Venus loses so she needs some crowd support for consolation, and when Dawn doesn't get what she wants, she cries racisim. Typical, can't say I'm suprised, she really gives a bad reputation to other Williams fans, although they help the cause.

It is VERY important for people to identify racism and do something about it whenever and wherever possible. It is EQUALLY important to realize that screaming the word unjustly or using it out of context actually hurts the cause, and makes the continuation of racism possible. There is an industry in this country devoted to the perpetuation of racism, and, ironically, it is peopled with African-Americans.

persond
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:00 PM
I'm not sure what post you were reading, but I don't believe I belong in the category of people who don't believe racism exists. My best friend is African-American, and in fact, I am more comfortable with my African-American friends (yes, it's plural) than I am with most of my "white turkey" acquaintences, to borrow a phrase from Richard.

What I object to is this cry of racism where it doesn't exist, and the bastardization and use of that word unfairly and unjustly, when in reality, the boos that the Williams sisters have gotten don't have anything to do with racism, they have more to do with sexism. They are powerful, outspoken women who have taken their brash, in-your-face rise to prominence to levels previously non-existent in womens tennis. This meteoric rise was accomplished using the training tools sponsored by, and the coaches paid by the USTA on a selective and secretive basis by Richard Williams- have you ever heard Richard, Oracene, Venus, or Serena give Rick Macci credit?

I also can't remember (and I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong) Venus or Serena mention racism or racially motivated crowds they've experienced- it's always been the media and the fans afterwards trying to bring in the RACISM card to blow a situation that doesn't exist out of proportion. They get boos occasionally because from the start (and to this day), they have thumbed their nose at the very same establishment that they have used at their will to get where they are. Tennis fans are more intelligent that the false cry of RACISM every time an African-American gets a boo during a match.



Firstly, I am Black. I grew up during the turbulent '60's and even marched in several demonstrations, so "I have lived racism". Based on my experiences, I am more "adept" at recognizing racism even in it's most subtle forms. That, in itself, qualifies me at identifying racism. To be sure, every incident is not racial in and of itself, in fact, more often than not, incidents are often "overtones of racism", which I dare say I don't have the time nor inclination to distinguish the difference here. But, suffice it to say, "I KNOW RACISM". And, suffice it also to say that, I know "some of your best friends are African Americans" doesn't mean you too are racist, but, I heard that quite alot too. The issue of race and racism as it exist in American Sports is just too broad for a discussion on a tennis board, but, take it from me, those who "know racism", are not bastardizing or simply "playing the race card". Hell, why worry about the "race card" when all 52 cards in the deck are dealt by the white man. And, because you don't see racism, means it doesn't exist...??? If there is indeed a "cry of racism", then just because it is a person of color stating so, does it mean it is a cry without merit...???

I have seen stories on the Williamses and their rise in tennis, and yes, the name Rick Maci, did surface on occasion. But, is it fair to ask Richard to do what other coaches rarely, if ever, do. Do other coaches ever mention the hoards of other "experts" they bring into their players lives to improve their games...??? We shouldn't expect more from Richard than we do from others, or else we guilty of imposing a "double standard"...???...!!!

Knizzle
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:05 PM
I know, neither Williams sister was ever booed at the US Open. Dawn is paranoid and bitter that Venus loses so she needs some crowd support for consolation, and when Dawn doesn't get what she wants, she cries racisim. Typical, can't say I'm suprised, she really gives a bad reputation to other Williams fans, although they help the cause.


The crowd was heavily favored for Venus' opponent in 2001 and 2002. In 2001 Venus was #4 and her opponent had won 2 GS that year and was #2. In 2002 her opponent was from a foreign country, and Venus being American, you would think she would get the crowd support like Capriati did the round before against the same opponent.

alfajeffster
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:17 PM
Firstly, I am Black. I grew up during the turbulent '60's and even marched in several demonstrations, so "I have lived racism". Based on my experiences, I am more "adept" at recognizing racism even in it's most subtle forms. That, in itself, qualifies me at identifying racism. To be sure, every incident is not racial in and of itself, in fact, more often than not, incidents are often "overtones of racism", which I dare say I don't have the time nor inclination to distinguish the difference here. But, suffice it to say, "I KNOW RACISM". And, suffice it also to say that, I know "some of your best friends are African Americans" doesn't mean you too are racist, but, I heard that quite alot too. The issue of race and racism as it exist in American Sports is just too broad for a discussion on a tennis board, but, take it from me, those who "know racism", are not bastardizing or simply "playing the race card". Hell, why worry about the "race card" when all 52 cards in the deck are dealt by the white man. And, because you don't see racism, means it doesn't exist...??? If there is indeed a "cry of racism", then just because it is a person of color stating so, does it mean it is a cry without merit...???

I have seen stories on the Williamses and their rise in tennis, and yes, the name Rick Maci, did surface on occasion. But, is it fair to ask Richard to do what other coaches rarely, if ever, do. Do other coaches ever mention the hoards of other "experts" they bring into their players lives to improve their games...??? We shouldn't expect more from Richard than we do from others, or else we guilty of imposing a "double standard"...???...!!!

I agree with most of what you are saying- especially the 52 cards being dealt by the white man. You are right, there isn't enough time or space on this board to discuss racism in American Sports on this board. The original thread (which I am trying to stick to) was designed to bring in racism as a purported reason Venus was booed in her match against Mauresmo. Other than a few loud lesbians in the crowd, I don't remember Venus getting jeered that badly, and it most certainly had nothing to do with racism. My point is, why bring in the word when it doesn't apply- it only serves to strengthen racism.

Rick Macci is probably the single greatest influence on the Williams Sisters' game- he moulded both players into what they are today. They never talk about him at all- the PLAYERS don't- Venus and Serena don't. You can compare them to other champions in this regard- from as far back as Althea Gibson giving her coaches and trainers and Alice Marble credit to today's champions. The Williams sisters not only ignore Rick Macci- they don't mention him at all! This is an ignorant precedent they are setting, in my opinion.

DA FOREHAND
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:20 PM
Rent the DVD

alfajeffster
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:24 PM
Rent the DVD

To hear a few loud, obnixious lesbians jeering whomever Amelie plays, no thank you! I remember sitting in Madison Square Garden trying to watch Monica Seles dismember Martina Navratilova years ago and the same thing went on- rude, officious, loud dykies in nikes screaming obscenities and every Seles winner and every time she dared to question a call. This is nothing new, and it is certainly not racism.

Serendy Willick
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:25 PM
I agree with most of what you are saying- especially the 52 cards being dealt by the white man. You are right, there isn't enough time or space on this board to discuss racism in American Sports on this board. The original thread (which I am trying to stick to) was designed to bring in racism as a purported reason Venus was booed in her match against Mauresmo. Other than a few loud lesbians in the crowd, I don't remember Venus getting jeered that badly, and it most certainly had nothing to do with racism. My point is, why bring in the word when it doesn't apply- it only serves to strengthen racism.

Rick Macci is probably the single greatest influence on the Williams Sisters' game- he moulded both players into what they are today. They never talk about him at all- the PLAYERS don't- Venus and Serena don't. You can compare them to other champions in this regard- from as far back as Althea Gibson giving her coaches and trainers and Alice Marble credit to today's champions. The Williams sisters not only ignore Rick Macci- they don't mention him at all! This is an ignorant precedent they are setting, in my opinion.


Well I wouldnt mention him either considering that intially he didnt even think that neither of them would be good enough to be tennis players. They only spent a year and a half with him and they werent even his top priorities. Richard Williams on the other hand spent his whole life, learning the game himself and then teaching his kids. Capriati isnt crediting Harold Solomon for her rise back to the top either, is she setting an ignorant precedent :confused:

CapFan#1
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:26 PM
CAPPYFOREVER, I am not jealous of Capriati. How can I be jealous of any player I don't know personally? I have to say that Jen has truly reformed from her "bad girl" behaviour. LOL

Also, I am not saying she did not say anything complimentary about other players, but that does not excuse the negative comments she made about others. What I'm saying is that even while she was saying all that, not once did she recieve backlash from the fans. So CAPPYFOREVER that's good for her, but what does it say about the tennis establishment as a whole? And what does it say about the US tennis community as a whole?

I continue to question the boo's even though I know the reality of what's going on, I'm still trying to find out what is the mentality behind it.


Ok Harloo, you are singing a different tune now..... In your original post you stated the Cappy was dissing EVERYONE at EVERY opp. she got. NOT TRUE AT ALL! She may have NOT bowed down at the Williams alter every time a reported asked her some dumb ass question about Venus or Serena, but that does not constitute her dissing them, nor does it constitute her 'dissing everbody at every opportunity"


I think one of the problems Venus may have is that the US population likes their famous folks to be accessible. Venus is not. She is shy, and not outgoing, and while that is more than OK, I think that may tend to come off as arrogant and snooty, which I dont think she is, but I have heard others say that is their impression of her.....

Knizzle
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:28 PM
To hear a few loud, obnixious lesbians jeering whomever Amelie plays, no thank you! I remember sitting in Madison Square Garden trying to watch Monica Seles dismember Martina Navratilova years ago and the same thing went on- rude, officious, loud dykies in nikes screaming obscenities and every Seles winner and every time she dared to question a call. This is nothing new, and it is certainly not racism.

Well if they were only booing Monica because of sharing the same sexual preference as Martina then maybe they were heterophobic.

alfajeffster
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:31 PM
Well if they were only booing Monica because of sharing the same sexual preference as Martina then maybe they were heterophobic.

No, simply obnoxious lesbians, which isn't to say all lesbians are obnixious- GODDESS FORBID!!! I just wanted to point out who these Venus jeers really were coming from.

alfajeffster
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:35 PM
Well I wouldnt mention him either considering that intially he didnt even think that neither of them would be good enough to be tennis players. They only spent a year and a half with him and they werent even his top priorities. Richard Williams on the other hand spent his whole life, learning the game himself and then teaching his kids. Capriati isnt crediting Harold Solomon for her rise back to the top either, is she setting an ignorant precedent :confused:

How can Jennifer credit Harold Solomon, when she should really be crediting any of the pharmaceutical comanies who manufacture the performance enhancing drugs she used to transform herself from flabby to having the pecks of a Russian olympic swimmer in the span of less than 6 months? Harold Solomon had nothing to do with building the Capriati game up from scratch.

DA FOREHAND
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:35 PM
To hear a few loud, obnixious lesbians jeering whomever Amelie plays, no thank you! I remember sitting in Madison Square Garden trying to watch Monica Seles dismember Martina Navratilova years ago and the same thing went on- rude, officious, loud dykies in nikes screaming obscenities and every Seles winner and every time she dared to question a call. This is nothing new, and it is certainly not racism.


HUH? Tell us how you really feel about lesbefriends.

I meant the DVD on the Williams Sisters

alfajeffster
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:37 PM
HUH? Tell us how you really feel about lesbefriends.

I meant the DVD on the Williams Sisters

Oh, a little more verbage and a little less left to speculation, please...

Knizzle
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:38 PM
No, simply obnoxious lesbians, which isn't to say all lesbians are obnixious- GODDESS FORBID!!! I just wanted to point out who these Venus jeers really were coming from.

You know what, people try to make excuses as to why Venus was booed that day against Mauresmo, but honestly out of that 20,000 people in the stands. Do you really think there were that many Mauresmo fans there to cheer their favorite on?? Be realistic. The majority were obviously true fans of neither player, but for whatever reason decided to all get together and root for Amelie, and cheer against Venus.

DA FOREHAND
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:39 PM
LOL

I like what the less verbage pulled out of you though...interesting lil tirade.


LOL

CapFan#1
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:47 PM
How can Jennifer credit Harold Solomon, when she should really be crediting any of the pharmaceutical comanies who manufacture the performance enhancing drugs she used to transform herself from flabby to having the pecks of a Russian olympic swimmer in the span of less than 6 months? Harold Solomon had nothing to do with building the Capriati game up from scratch.


You obviously have never worked out. You can transform you body in 3 months, let alone 6.... Cappy can thank Karen Burnett, her PERSONAL TRAINER and herself (for her own hard work) for the transformation


:rolleyes:

Knizzle
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:48 PM
You obviously have never worked out. You can transform you body in 3 months, let alone 6.... Cappy can thank Karen Burnett, her PERSONAL TRAINER and herself (for her own hard work) for the transformation


:rolleyes:

I thought her fitness trainer was named Lisa??

CapFan#1
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:51 PM
I thought her fitness trainer was named Lisa??


He new trainer is Lisa, as of about 6 -7 months ago she hired her. She hired Karen in the fall of 2000 and worked with up through last year.

DA FOREHAND
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:52 PM
Whatever her name is she needs to fire her and get back w/Karen.

alfajeffster
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:53 PM
LOL

I like what the less verbage pulled out of you though...interesting lil tirade.


LOL

Hey- when you're sitting there in Madison Square Garden and you can't hear Monica Seles grunt because a crowd of big fat mullet-headed drill seargents are screaming at the poor little girl trying to pass Martina- it leaves a lasting memory.

Kart
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:55 PM
Now, if Venus gets booed at the USO now then I know for sure that it's racism and their will be no denying it. Sorry, but if Venus meets up against Justine or Kim and the crowd starts to react like they did in the 2001 semis against Capriati, and the 2002 semis against Amelie then that will confirm it.

JMO!!!
GO VENUS!! :D

Please specify exactly what you want the crowd to do to indicate they are not all racists out there rooting against her.

Whatever you say, you are going to be disappointed because we all know that there will always be that element.

Does that mean that everyone booing against her is a racist ?

Or just some of them ?

Personally what interests me is what kind of person would go to a public tournament to jeer at anybody. Indicates to me a flagrant lack of manners and a rather unnattractive personality.

That is more consistent with a definition of scum (or words to that effect) than racist, because we have seen people of all races booed at places like the French open. Of course, all racists are scum, but the reverse isn't necessarily true.

Undoubtedly there will be a mixture of both at any tennis tournament, including the US open, so brace yourself or congratulate yourself for the truth of your prophecy depending on your outlook.

CapFan#1
Aug 6th, 2003, 08:23 PM
Whatever her name is she needs to fire her and get back w/Karen.


I disagree.... things were getting stale with Karen, and thus Jen started to get a little bit out of shape around the middle of last year. Since she's hooked up with Lisa, her mobility and speed are back to where they were and she is in much better shape than 6 months ago.

TylerDurden
Aug 6th, 2003, 09:11 PM
It's not about being black. It's about being haughty, arrogant, unattractive, imposing, favored, bitchy, having an ugly game, beating other peoples favorites, bad fashion, etc. There are a million and one reasons to dislike someone and to immediately say racism (i.e., you white people are racists) is racist itself, and it's not suprising to find out who the real racists on this board are.

Knizzle
Aug 6th, 2003, 09:13 PM
It's not about being black. It's about being haughty, arrogant, unattractive, imposing, favored, bitchy, having an ugly game, beating other peoples favorites, bad fashion, etc. There are a million and one reasons to dislike someone and to immediately say racism (i.e., you white people are racists) is racist itself, and it's not suprising to find out who the real racists on this board are.

Hingis had all of those qualities times 2, so I don't see your reasoning??

DA FOREHAND
Aug 6th, 2003, 09:14 PM
Hey- when you're sitting there in Madison Square Garden and you can't hear Monica Seles grunt because a crowd of big fat mullet-headed drill seargents are screaming at the poor little girl trying to pass Martina- it leaves a lasting memory.

Just turned you against women forever huh? ;)

alfajeffster
Aug 6th, 2003, 09:20 PM
Just turned you against women forever huh? ;)

No, I'm still waiting for one of them to tell me why they hate men, and gay men (most of them I've met) basically worship women. Weird, ain't it? I have a lesbian friend who has to keep reassuring me that not all lesbians hate men. It's called Post-NavratilovaSelesFinal Syndrome, and only Mom can cure me.

TylerDurden
Aug 6th, 2003, 09:22 PM
Hingis had all of those qualities times 2, so I don't see your reasoning??

That's because you're a fucking douche, if you don't like Hingis it can be for any one of those qualities, no shit, but I won't stand here and say it's because she's white. You, on the other hand...

alfajeffster
Aug 6th, 2003, 09:25 PM
Hingis had all of those qualities times 2, so I don't see your reasoning??

Hingis had many of those qualities, EXCEPT she was reasonably attractive, and had a much prettier and more intelligent game

Cybelle Darkholme
Aug 7th, 2003, 03:21 AM
Bored now.

I can't believe this is still being discussed. I could give a flying f*ck if the crowd doesn't cheer my fav. I'm there cheering and thats all that matters. Hell I booed martina hingis during the us open in 2000 so how can I throw stones?

In fact I wish she would come out of retirement so I can boo her some more. :lol:

Now I'd like to know why some of you are so obsessed with the crowd?

Ballbuster
Aug 7th, 2003, 03:46 AM
Fuck the crowd. Venus is taking this one home. Besides the Crowd will be with her. And Martina, I hope she comes out of retirement to continue getting Smacked-down. She left too soon. That troll made out like a bandit and hide away.

*JR*
Aug 7th, 2003, 04:41 AM
Fuck the crowd. Venus is taking this one home. Besides the Crowd will be with her. And Martina, I hope she comes out of retirement to continue getting Smacked-down. She left too soon. That troll made out like a bandit and hide away.
RB, I told Sweets that BB was you! :devil: So how's Da Windy City doin NEway? And yer boy Ah-nuld is runnin fer Guv after all! ;)

Tplayer
Aug 7th, 2003, 05:12 AM
The crowd pays respect to those who deserve it. Right now both Williams sisters are on are not very popular.
In fact I think history will write that Venus and Serena have been booed more than any other female tennis player in the history of the game. And for good reason.
This is the way it is. Learn to deal with it.

TylerDurden
Aug 7th, 2003, 06:32 AM
What's responsible for the bitterness of so many Venus fans?

I think its two numbers and a dash.

10-9.

:)

Knizzle
Aug 7th, 2003, 06:41 AM
What's responsible for the bitterness of so many Venus fans?

I think its two numbers and a dash.

10-9.

:)

You know what I think is responsible for bitterness of Hingis fans?? I think it's one word.

RETIREMENT.

TylerDurden
Aug 7th, 2003, 06:47 AM
Hingis retired? Oh, well, I'm sure Venus has won a Tier I more recently than Martina has, so I have every right to...oh, wait. Hmmm.

Knizzle
Aug 7th, 2003, 06:49 AM
Hingis retired? Oh, well, I'm sure Venus has won a Tier I more recently than Martina has, so I have every right to...oh, wait. Hmmm.

She also has been to more GS finals in the last year than Martina. I guess I need to shut up because Martina won a GS last in....oh wait. HMMM...

Sam L
Aug 7th, 2003, 06:49 AM
The crowd pays respect to those who deserve it. Right now both Williams sisters are on are not very popular.
In fact I think history will write that Venus and Serena have been booed more than any other female tennis player in the history of the game. And for good reason.
This is the way it is. Learn to deal with it.
Poor Tplayer, why is your reputation so low? :o

TylerDurden
Aug 7th, 2003, 06:53 AM
I know, Martina is so far past her prime and last won a GS so long ago, it's ridiculous, but believe it or not, some of her older rivals have had four years now to catch up and still can't do it.

Knizzle
Aug 7th, 2003, 07:07 AM
I know, Martina is so far past her prime and last won a GS so long ago, it's ridiculous, but believe it or not, some of her older rivals have had four years now to catch up and still can't do it.

I know. That Davenport is pitiful isn't she??

Cybelle Darkholme
Aug 8th, 2003, 03:50 AM
I know. That Davenport is pitiful isn't she??

Hey I like davenport. She had the drive and the character to overcome her injury with hard work and patience and motivation and an innate belief that she still had the game to beat the top players and rise to the top. She's a true contender unlike some other player who disappeared with an "injury"...

Beat
Aug 8th, 2003, 08:22 AM
Venus is hardly the underdog to the public when she has 5 slams under her belt-more than any other active woman except an over the hill Seles.

wow, you know your tennis very well, don't you?