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View Full Version : How many times has Venus retired from matches, or given her opponent a walkover?


Volcana
Aug 5th, 2003, 11:46 AM
Venus has long had a rep for pulling out of matches. But does she really do that more often than most players?

Remember,

Retirements occur mid-match.
Walkover mean you never play the first point.

Indian Wells '01 was a walkover, for example.

She's played 384 matches

Volcana
Aug 5th, 2003, 11:50 AM
reference points

567 matches, 2 retirements, 0 walkovers - Martina Hingis

728 matches, 4 retirements, 3 walkovers - Monica Seles (the malingerer :))

259 matches, 4 retirements, 0 walkovers - Justine

Glenn
Aug 5th, 2003, 11:51 AM
I honestly don't know, 9?

Martian Willow
Aug 5th, 2003, 12:23 PM
So you're telling us that the one time in her career she pulled out of a match was the one against, of all people, her sister...and that's supposed to be defending her, right? :confused:

Volcana
Aug 5th, 2003, 12:36 PM
So you're telling us that the one time in her career she pulled out of a match was the one against, of all people, her sister...and that's supposed to be defending her, right? :confused:

No, I'm defintiely NOT telling you that. Nor am I offering Venus a defense. She does that quite well on her own.

Maajken
Aug 5th, 2003, 12:46 PM
its probably just 3 cause this thread wouldnt be posted if it was actually 12

Josh
Aug 5th, 2003, 12:52 PM
1. Amelia Island 1996
64 L Veronika MARTINEK (GER) 3-5 Retired

2. San Diego 1998
QF L Mary PIERCE (FRA) 6-2 6-7 0-4 Retired

3. Indian Wells 2001
SF L Serena WILLIAMS (USA) Walkover

4. Los Angeles 2002
SF L Kim CLIJSTERS (BEL) 0-5 Retired

5. Warsaw 2003
FR L Amelie MAURESMO (FRA) 7-6(6) 0-6 0-3 Retired

oddkayla
Aug 5th, 2003, 12:56 PM
Josh if your stats are accurate, then it is shocking because I'd have thought that she had retired or had more walkovers than that. I would have thought that is the expectations in her matches, that she will most likely retire.

People should leave Venus alone!

TonyP
Aug 5th, 2003, 12:58 PM
Volcana:

Not a lot, obviously and not a disproportionate number compared to Martina or Monica or Justine.

I think there's another factor, though, and that is the number of tournaments from which she has withdrawn before they began.

That, in truth, is not unique to her, however. For my money, Andre Agassi has probably been equally guilty of that on the men's side and he is almost never criticized by the press for doing so. But Agassi is probably cut a little slack because he has been around a lot longer than Venus or Serena.

It would also be interesting to see the number of withdrawals Serena has made during her career.

doloresc
Aug 5th, 2003, 01:03 PM
1. Amelia Island 1996
64 L Veronika MARTINEK (GER) 3-5 Retired

2. San Diego 1998
QF L Mary PIERCE (FRA) 6-2 6-7 0-4 Retired

3. Indian Wells 2001
SF L Serena WILLIAMS (USA) Walkover

4. Los Angeles 2002
SF L Kim CLIJSTERS (BEL) 0-5 Retired

5. Warsaw 2003
FR L Amelie MAURESMO (FRA) 7-6(6) 0-6 0-3 Retired

very interesting! you'd think with venus' injuries that retiring or defaulting would've happened more often.

where did you get your statistics? is that information available on the itf site?

Josh
Aug 5th, 2003, 01:08 PM
very interesting! you'd think with venus' injuries that retiring or defaulting would've happened more often.

where did you get your statistics? is that information available on the itf site?

Yes it's on the www.itftennis.com site. Under player database/player activity.

TonyP
Aug 5th, 2003, 01:12 PM
What is also interesting to note here are the records of Martina and Venus. They are almost the same age, and they both joined the tour within weeks of one another at the end of 1994.

However, if Volcana's stats are correct, Martina played 183 more singles matches than Venus, and remember Martina missed a large part of 2002 and hasn't played at all in 2003. Venus was still active both of those years.

And before anyone goes off on Martina playing too many tournaments, I point out that in the year when she won the most matches, 77 in the year 2000, Martina played only 19 tournaments, about the average number for WTA players and obviously far fewer than many top players play.

villa
Aug 5th, 2003, 01:24 PM
What this about venus starting to play same-time as martina in 94? what tournaments did she play in that year or in 95, 96 for that matter??
i know richard didn't want his girls play in the juniors or becoming pro to early becuase of burnout...

villa
Aug 5th, 2003, 01:26 PM
Tony p- its only natural that martina won more matches than venus due to the type of game she played- it was low risk tennis and developes alot quivker and easier than the high risk power bashing players which requires a lot of time to harness the power and arises in a alot more losses...

TonyP
Aug 5th, 2003, 01:27 PM
Venus Williams turned pro October 31, 1994. That's according to the WTA players guide. Assuming it is correct, she must have played in a tournament in order to get the pro status.

doloresc
Aug 5th, 2003, 01:34 PM
Yes it's on the www.itftennis.com site. Under player database/player activity.

thanks! i didn't realize that their database got that specific but i'm glad, for the sake of argument, that they do. :)

doloresc
Aug 5th, 2003, 01:37 PM
Venus Williams turned pro October 31, 1994. That's according to the WTA players guide. Assuming it is correct, she must have played in a tournament in order to get the pro status.

that is correct. it was the bank of the west classic. she defeated shaun stafford. sorry i forget the score.

villa
Aug 5th, 2003, 01:43 PM
Yeah but how many torunaments did she play- i know that the age-ristriction thing was coming in and anyone who didn't turn pro tha year would not have been able to aviod it and hence venus turned pro but don't thing she play pro for several years after whereas martina did...

Volcana
Aug 5th, 2003, 01:56 PM
What is also interesting to note here are the records of Martina and Venus. They are almost the same age, and they both joined the tour within weeks of one another at the end of 1994.


Here is a summary of the respective records. Besdies being almost the same age and turning pro at exacetly the same time, (f TonyP's stats are correct), check out the similarity is percentage of tournaments won and percentage of matches won.

freaky, eh?


Hingis - Matches played: 567
V.Williams - Matches played: 384

Hingis - Tournaments played: 138
V.Williams - Tournaments played: 100

Hingis - Win/Loss: 468 - 99 (82.53%)
V.Williams - Win/Loss: 313 - 71 (81.51%)

Hingis - Tournaments won: 40 (28.98%)
V.Williams - Tournaments won: 29 (29.00%)

Volcana
Aug 5th, 2003, 02:00 PM
Tony p- its only natural that martina won more matches than venus due to the type of game she played- it was low risk tennis and developes alot quivker and easier than the high risk power bashing players which requires a lot of time to harness the power and arises in a alot more losses...

villa - You MAY be right in terms of risk, but Venus and Martina won matches and tournaments at almost exactly the same rate. See my last post above.

Infiniti2001
Aug 5th, 2003, 02:27 PM
Venus Williams turned pro October 31, 1994. That's according to the WTA players guide. Assuming it is correct, she must have played in a tournament in order to get the pro status.

We can always count on you to chime in about the Williames considering your attitude towards them UGH. Meanwhile, while Venus turned pro in 1994, she did not play fulltime until 1997, so get off your high horse. You're always quick to compare her to hingis sheesh :tape:

1994- 1-1 (One tournament)
1995- 2-3 (three tournaments)
1996- 2-5 (five tournaments)
1997-19-13 (thirteen tournaments)

disposablehero
Aug 5th, 2003, 03:06 PM
reference points

567 matches, 2 retirements, 0 walkovers - Martina Hingis

728 matches, 4 retirements, 3 walkovers - Monica Seles (the malingerer :))

259 matches, 4 retirements, 0 walkovers - Justine

I know you are joking, but still, it is silly to call Monica "The Malingerer" when her frequency is actually much lower than Venus or Justine. Martina's record is a bit freaky, and if she tried now to play through her injuries, like Monica does, I imagine she would catch up quickly.

TonyP
Aug 5th, 2003, 03:39 PM
FYI, I just discovered Hingis played 20 tournaments in 2000. I couldn't figure it out,because she won nine and had ten defeats, so that added up to 19. But the 20th turns out to be Scottsdale. That's the one where she and Lindsay got to the final and it was rained out, so no one was given the victory and it turns up in neither her win nor loss column.

Volcana
Aug 5th, 2003, 05:07 PM
I know you are joking, but still, it is silly to call Monica "The Malingerer" when her frequency is actually much lower than Venus or Justine.

dh - Jokes often are silly. I kinda figured '728 matches' would successfully inform anyone who missed the emoticon that this WAS a joke. Next time I'll try to be more obvious.