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apoet29
Aug 1st, 2003, 01:46 AM
Middle East - AP

New Law for Israeli-Palestinian Couples
Thu Jul 31,12:03 PM ET

By GAVIN RABINOWITZ, Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM - Israel's parliament passed a measure Thursday that would force Palestinians who marry Israelis to live separate lives or move out of Israel. The government said the law was necessary to prevent terror attacks, but critics called it racist.



The law, to be in effect for one year, would prevent Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza Strip (news - web sites) who marry Israeli Arabs from obtaining residency permits in Israel.


In pushing the measure, Israel's government cited instances in which Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza have exploited their residency permits which grant them freedom of movement in Israel to carry out terror attacks.


"This law comes to address a security issue," Cabinet Minister Gideon Ezra told Israel Radio. "Since September 2000 we have seen a significant connection, in terror attacks, between Arabs from the West Bank and Gaza and Israeli Arabs."


The vote was 53 in favor, 25 against and one abstention.


Israeli Arabs were outraged.


"We see this law as the implementation of the 'transfer' policy by the state of Israel," said Jafar Savah from Mossawa, an advocacy center for Israeli Arabs. He was referring to a plan by ultranationalist Jewish groups to persuade or force Israeli Arabs and Palestinians to leave for Arab countries.


Savah said the law was an attempt to legalize unofficial policy that has been in effect since September 2000, when Israeli-Palestinian violence broke out. He warned that the law would damage relations between Israel and its Arab minority.


Local and international human rights groups have condemned the law as racist.


"This is a racist law that decides who can live here according to racist criteria," said Yael Stein from the Israeli rights group B'tselem.


Two New York-based rights groups, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, sent letters to the parliament protesting the law and urging lawmakers not to pass it, a statement from Human Rights Watch said.


Israel and the Palestinians have been locked in a bloody conflict for 33 months, though a limited cease-fire declared by the Palestinians on June 29 has significantly reduced attacks against Israelis.


Arabs make up about 20 percent of Israel's population of 6 million. About 3 million Palestinians live in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Many families were divided by cease-fire lines after Mideast wars, and over the years, marriage between the two groups has been common.


Some Israelis see this as a security threat. Ezra told the radio that since 1993, more than 100,000 Palestinians have obtained Israeli permits in this manner. "It has grown out of control," he said.


However, Stein from B'tselem said there have been only 20 cases from these 100,000 people who have been involved in terror.


"I am not taking these attacks lightly, but this is an extreme solution to a marginal phenomenon," Stein said.

Lisbeth
Aug 1st, 2003, 03:08 AM
I know they have their reasons but I think that's really sad.

PointBlank
Aug 1st, 2003, 03:13 AM
My Grandma lives in Israel and is a citizen(for 2 years) and married to an Arab..she is gonna move to belgium were she was raised anyway but she is still propably pissed!

polishprodigy
Aug 1st, 2003, 03:58 AM
so sad.

Colin B
Aug 1st, 2003, 11:44 AM
Nothing new of course.
Similar legislation was common in South Africa under apartheid and in central Europe during the 30s.
Sadly, nothing that either side does in that region surprises me any more.

Iconoclast
Aug 1st, 2003, 02:16 PM
Nothing new of course.
Similar legislation was common in South Africa under apartheid and in central Europe during the 30s.
An article inundated with the expected knee-jerk charges of racism from the critics, but without addressing the reasons for putting this temporary law in place. Now we have already moved on to the Nazi Germany parallels, still without touching on the substance.

Unless you use 'similar' in an extremely flexible manner, I doubt you will be able to find a historical analogy to this legislation. Which makes it pretty uncalled for to bring up a murderous, genocidal regime intent on world domination in connection with something as complex as the Middle Eastern conflict.

Sure, it's discriminatory against people from a certain country, or should I say 'country in progress'. But not more so than any rigorous visa law. Keep in mind that the law applies to all Israeli citizens, Jews and Arabs alike. But, of course, there is no doubt who is at aimed at and who will be hurt by it. Which is also why settlements are excepted.

However, we must keep the regrettable backdrop to the legislation in mind. 87 innocent Israeli civilians killed by people using these permits to perpetrate terrorist acts. 19 cases in total, most of them in the last few years.

It should also be noted that it doesn't prevent any one from getting married. But it does put a halt to a remarkable demographic trend, 100.000 permits in ten years, which is quite a lot couples wanting to live in Israel. And it seems that it is mostly Palestinian men who want to join their wives in Israel, which is reverse from the normal pattern in the Arab world where women traditionally follow the men in such marriages.

Maybe they like it in the democratic state of Israel.

Josh
Aug 1st, 2003, 02:34 PM
Maybe they like it in the democratic state of Israel.

A democratic state that makes it impossible for foreign reporters to do their job and goes as far too shoot at them. Smells like censorship...

A democratic state that is building a 21st century version of the Berlin Wall...

No democracy is perfect but if you wanna be called a democratic country, you also have to act like it.

Iconoclast
Aug 1st, 2003, 07:59 PM
A democratic state that makes it impossible for foreign reporters to do their job and goes as far too shoot at them. Smells like censorship...
Israel is mined with foreign reporters. Few other countries can bolster such a massive international media presence. And few other countries are scrutinized to the same degree. Even by native Israeli papers, Haaretz being an example. Israel has both freedom of press and freedom of expression, two cornerstones of democracy.

To say that it is 'impossible' for foreign reporters to do their job is flat-out wrong. You can open just about any newspaper or turn on your tv to attest to that. I've seen thousands of reports from the West Bank and Gaza. Shootings, demolitions of houses, daily scenes from checkpoints, interviews with local residents etc. Many of those reports are extremely critical of Israel. If they have made it impossible for foreign journalists to report, it's certainly not showing. Just think of the Jenin "massacre" - and how that was reported by some media outlets.

You have to keep in mind that this is an armed conflict. Covering something of that nature from close range is extremely dangerous. Yes, Israel has sometimes put unreasonable hindrances in the way of journalists working in the Palestinian areas, especially those from the local population. I'm sure you can cite examples of that. I can as well.

But have they been involved in the confiscation of tapes - which the PA has done on occasion? That would make the censorship charge somewhat relevant, but I don't think they have. For the record, I do not agree with their boycott of the BBC.

Yes, there have been some very tragic killings of journalists since the second intifada broke out. These are in no way endorsed by even the tiniest fragment of Israeli society. Such cases are internally investigated to see if any breach of regulations have taken place on part of the soldiers. Such killings typically happen during firefights or at night. Even the harshest critics usually stop short of accusing Israel of deliberately shooting reporters.

A democratic state that is building a 21st century version of the Berlin Wall...
Ah, now a GDR comparison. This is getting good, I wonder when Stalin will pop up. It's a security fence, intended to keep out terrorists and stop people from entering Israel illegally. Have a look at U.S.-Mexican border for reference.

Unlike the Berlin Wall, the purpose is not to prevent people from leaving their country. Israelis are free to do so.
No democracy is perfect but if you wanna be called a democratic country, you also have to act like it.
That's true, and on most accounts Israel does so. But they are certainly not perfect. Had they lived in the same neighbourhood as Iceland, things might have been different. But alas.

Colin B
Aug 1st, 2003, 11:39 PM
However, we must keep the regrettable backdrop to the legislation in mind. 87 innocent Israeli civilians killed by people using these permits to perpetrate terrorist acts. 19 cases in total, most of them in the last few years.
Yup, terrible thing terrorism, state terrorism included. The Uk had it's own little terrorist problem for decades. Hundreds died; I don't remember us banning Anglo/Irish marriages though, or bulldozing Irish republican communities for that matter.

It should also be noted that it doesn't prevent any one from getting married.
Oh well, that's OK then.
"So you two want to get married eh? - Good. You love each other very much? -That's nice. Childhood sweethearts? - Ahh, how sweet. Lets see now...different gender? - Yup; same species? - Yup.......but hang on. What's this?.....YOU EACH HAVE A DIFFERENT NAME FOR GOD?!!!.........LEAVE THIS COUNTRY IMMEDIATELY!!!"

polishprodigy
Aug 1st, 2003, 11:49 PM
What's this?.....YOU EACH HAVE A DIFFERENT NAME FOR GOD?!!!.........LEAVE THIS COUNTRY IMMEDIATELY!!!"

I agree with your statement, but I don't think the law is aiming to infringe on Jewish-Arab marriages but rather Arab Israelis - Palestinian Refugees marriages. Either way, it is pretty sad. But this is what is going to continue to happen so long as Sharon or Netenyahu are prime ministers of Israel.....:rolleyes:

Colin B
Aug 2nd, 2003, 12:52 AM
Try living in your house everyday, not worrying about your children playing out in the open when you know for a fact that two blocks down the road someone's waiting to kill them. not a comfortable feeling at all.
Are you talking about Palestinian children or Israeli children? Presumably the latter - Newsflash - Last year in Gaza fifty (50) Palestinians under the age of eight (8!) were killed by Israeli soldiers! I bet your media never told you about that. Sure Israeli children have died too and that is equally bad. You should really learn to look at both sides of the story

You merely hunted down anyone with any hint of a Sinn Fein connection and slaughtered them in the streets from Galwin to Dublin and Cork to Magee like dogs. Before you argue this, ask yourself this. Is there a possiblity that my government is involved in things atrocious in regards to the irish that i have no idea about?
No need to ask. BAD shit went on. We knew about it. I was against it. British soldiers and politicians are still being brought to book for it and a good thing too. If they can prove any British soldier shot a child, I hope they lock him up and throw away the key. However, two wrongs don't make a right.
BTW - Cork? you must be joking. Have you ever been to Cork?

Until you've lived that way, or experienced the day in and day out life of your everyday israeli, it is folly to even think that you have a valid point of view.
An IRA bomb went off less than two miles from where I am sitting now.

The issue here in regard to this article is the safety and security of Israel. It has a right, regardless of the U.N.'s crookery and the rest of the world's complaints to defend itself like every other nation on earth regardless what name they use for God.
You assume I'm taking sides. I'm not. I'd like to see their God/s come down and bang both their stupid heads together. They are all fucking HUMAN BEINGS. Both sides should learn to act like human beings. I felt the same way about the Catholics and Protestants, still do.

i-girl
Aug 2nd, 2003, 10:31 AM
see, this is what happens when your info sources are shabby. you have no way NOT to be ignorant :rolleyes: .

this new law changes a situation which FAVOURED arab Israelis to other Israelis. when an Israeli marries a non Israeli, the right to get a citizenship is never automatic. I, for example, have a friend who married a girl from Peru, and she's been given a work permit, but was declined citizenship. arab Israelis were given a BETTER treatment in that that when they married, their spouce recieved citizenship automatically. this has now been changed, and the normal rule will apply to them- they will have to apply to the interior ministry for citizenship, like everyone else, and their request will be evaluated and not aproved automatically.

awfull quick to yell "discrimination", aren't we :rolleyes: . I keep wishing you guys would apply a minimal amount of modesty, and leave slight room for the possibilty you don't know EVERYTHING there is to know about us, but I guess that's never going to happen. you guys always know best, right?

Yoel etc.
Aug 2nd, 2003, 10:39 AM
see, this is what happens when your info sources are shabby. you have no way NOT to be ignorant :rolleyes: .

this new law changes a situation which FAVOURED arab Israelis to other Israelis. when an Israeli marries a non Israeli, the right to get a citizenship is never automatic. I, for example, have a friend who married a girl from Peru, and she's been given a work permit, but was declined citizenship. arab Israelis were given a BETTER treatment in that that when they married, their spouce recieved citizenship automatically. this has now been changed, and the normal rule will apply to them- they will have to apply to the interior ministry for citizenship, like everyone else, and their request will be evaluated and not aproved automatically.

awfull quick to yell "discrimination", aren't we :rolleyes: . I keep wishing you guys would apply a minimal amount of modesty, and leave slight room for the possibilty you don't know EVERYTHING there is to know about us, but I guess that's never going to happen. you guys always know best, right?

Go get them Noga :p

Colin B
Aug 3rd, 2003, 12:14 AM
See, this is what happens when your info sources are shabby. You have no way NOT to be ignorant.

Hello Noga, haven't seen you post for a while.
All I have to go on is the article at the top of this post. The source is Associated Press - a neutral agency not often regarded as 'shabby'; the writer, a Mr Rabinowitz, who, judging by his name at least, would appear not to have an axe to grind with Israel.