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View Full Version : Henin now vs. Martina 1997+ who would win?


leszcd2
Jun 13th, 2003, 12:52 AM
Just like Amelie proved that at her best she could Kill Martina on any court (minus being young, and injured) I think that Justine would squash the serve of Martina Hingis and move into a 6-4 6-3 win on any court!

Justine is fast and fitter than Martina ever was and her serve is much bigger.

King Lindsay
Jun 13th, 2003, 01:00 AM
Just like Amelie proved that at her best she could Kill Martina on any court (minus being young, and injured) I think that Justine would squash the serve of Martina Hingis and move into a 6-4 6-3 win on any court!

Justine is fast and fitter than Martina ever was and her serve is much bigger.

When did amelie "prove" that?

I think this a is a totally useless topic, but if you held a gun to my head, I'd say Hingis in straight sets on anything but clay, where it's a pick 'em.

Mrs. Peel
Jun 13th, 2003, 01:05 AM
It is a shame that Henin and Hingis never had a match up! I would put my money on the 1997 Hingis...she was so skilled and supremely confident, beating her was no easy feat!

King Lindsay
Jun 13th, 2003, 01:07 AM
It is a shame that Henin and Hingis never had a match up! I would put my money on the 1997 Hingis...she was so skilled and supremely confident, beating her was no easy feat!

they did play, actually. Twice in 2000. Martina won easily both times.

faboozadoo15
Jun 13th, 2003, 01:08 AM
i pick martina 97... for sure.

Hurley
Jun 13th, 2003, 01:09 AM
Yeah, but that was a completely different Justine!

I think Justine would whomp her, actually.

Dawn Marie
Jun 13th, 2003, 01:09 AM
Without a doubt Martina Hingis of 1997 would destroy Henin of 2003.

People are acting Like Justine is dominating the sport or something... this is still the same kid who needed gamesmenship and a racial crowd to hold a trophy.

Bacardi
Jun 13th, 2003, 01:12 AM
Tough say, and it would depend on what surface the game was to be played on. While Martina has a creme puff serve, and was a little chubby back then, she did seem to master nearly ever surface (except clay) that she crossed in 1997. But, ultimately I would have to give the edge to Justine Henin, no matter what court it was to be played on. She just has more game than Hingis did in 1997.

Dawn Marie
Jun 13th, 2003, 01:20 AM
In 1997 Hingis serve was actually faster and she would beat Henin with consistency. Henin still makes alot of errors compared to Hingis.


Henin has to do more on all surfaces and she has to win some more slams and make it to many more finals to even be compared to Hingis of 1997.

spencercarlos
Jun 13th, 2003, 01:21 AM
Martina 1997 winner of 3 slams... for sure i`ll pick her

King Lindsay
Jun 13th, 2003, 01:22 AM
Yeah, but that was a completely different Justine!

I think Justine would whomp her, actually.

True.

You think she'd whomp her on US Open hardcourt?

F-R-E-A-K
Jun 13th, 2003, 01:23 AM
Hingis was farr farr farr to supreme back thent o lose to a girl like henin's games!

downtheline
Jun 13th, 2003, 01:37 AM
Henin became good because she developed a game to combat the Williamses. Hingis did not have that kind of pace in mind while developing her game.

Henin is a reaction to the Williamses, so I agree with the previous poster who said that this is a pointless argument.

Overall, Hingis is definitely a 2nd team ALL-TIME-ALL-STAR. With Graf, Navratilova, etc on the first team. Henin is up to now a one-Slam winner.

Henin could definitely challenge the 97 Hingis. Hingis was good, but she has not proven that her game could stand the test of several generations of players.

disposablehero
Jun 13th, 2003, 01:48 AM
Martina was already 40 years old in 1997. Justine would thrash her.

WtaTour4Ever
Jun 13th, 2003, 02:36 AM
Hmm...On clay...that would be interesting. However I don't think Henin possesses enough "power" to really push Hingis off the court.

Sam L
Jun 13th, 2003, 02:40 AM
Martina was already 40 years old in 1997. Justine would thrash her.
LOL, always impeccable timing. :)

I'd take Hingis on hardcourts but Justine on clay or grass. This brings me to the attention that I think Hingis was really underrated on hardcourts. She had some record at the Aus-US Opens.

Robbie.
Jun 13th, 2003, 02:54 AM
Its not even a comparison! Hingis could handle Justine on all surfaces. Clay would be more difficult, but I still think Martina would have the edge. People often bag Martina's Wimbledon Record but it is only relatively poor compared to her impeccable record at the other majors where she didn't fall before the semifinals between the 1996 US Open and 2002 Australian Open. She was a champion at the All England Club in 1997 and in 1996,1998 and 2000 she lost to the eventual champion. In fact in Venus' 20 match winning streak at Wimby Hingis was the only one who even looked like beating her. So apart from when she was incapacitated she was very effective on grass :D

Ryan
Jun 13th, 2003, 02:59 AM
Hingis would beat Justine on every surface IMO, with the most trouble on clay and grass. Hingis is/was a more superior tactician than Justine, and in 1997 she was fast and more powerful.

shap_half
Jun 13th, 2003, 03:15 AM
In 1997 Hingis serve was actually faster and she would beat Henin with consistency. Henin still makes alot of errors compared to Hingis.


Henin has to do more on all surfaces and she has to win some more slams and make it to many more finals to even be compared to Hingis of 1997.

Most ignorant comment of the day! Are you serious? Someone's talent and ability to defeat another is now based on how many other Grand Slams they haven't won?

Just like how Justine has defeated Serena without having to win a GS, Justine doesn't need any more GS titles to defeat the Hingis of 1997. I love Martina, but I think Justine is just a more complete player now. You must really hate Justine to even say that Hingis has a better and faster serve than Justine of now.

Nan Cu
Jun 13th, 2003, 03:23 AM
Hingis. Justine doesn't have enough power to beat 1997 Hingis.

F-R-E-A-K
Jun 13th, 2003, 03:28 AM
OKAY 1997 HINGIS WINS!
SHE KICKS JUSTINES BUTT.. 6-4 6-2!

deal!

Dawn Marie
Jun 13th, 2003, 03:29 AM
shap-half must be a huge Henin fan.;)

I like Justine's game infact I predicted her to win RG this year.

That still does not mean that Hingis of 1997 and 1998 would not spank the Henin of 2003. Henin makes too many errors.. she always leaves the bigger babes an opening. Where as with Martina she would make you play.. u had to beat her. Again.. Martina would beat the shit out of Justine.

Peter M
Jun 13th, 2003, 03:40 AM
She was a champion at the All England Club in 1997 and in 1996,1998 and 2000 she lost to the eventual champion. In fact in Venus' 20 match winning streak at Wimby Hingis was the only one who even looked like beating her.

Martina's QF against Wimbledon was where she first started to wimp out against power players. Lindsay said she saw some of the match and was shocked at how passive Martina was. I agree. Martina of 1997 would have romped through that match. But, that match, she was playing without her usual controlled agression.

Anyway, the biggest difference b/tw Hingis of '97 vs Hingis of '02 is her mental game. Opponents did get better but Hingis's game deterriorated. Hingis of '97 would rout Justine on carpet (imo, her best surface) and hard (a close second best). Clay would be a closer match with Hingis the victor and grass would be Henin's best shot-- but a toss-up, at best for Henin.

fried_beans
Jun 13th, 2003, 04:08 AM
Hingis easily

england_rules
Jun 13th, 2003, 04:37 AM
Hingis about 6-4, 6-3

Couver
Jun 13th, 2003, 04:48 AM
I have to go with Martina of 1997. Until the latter stages of her career, she was still giving the big babes some tough competition. So I think she could handle Justine's power.

Also Justine does suffer from nerves and Martina of 1997 would know how to exploit them and push Henin into making errors.

ys
Jun 13th, 2003, 04:52 AM
Depends on a surface. On clay Justine would be favourite. Martina-97 could not beat Iva Majoli of all people. Henin plays supreme clay court tenins. On Rebound Ace, the best surface of Martina and very good surface of Justine it could be close. But I would still give Martina an advantage. Grass is a great surface of Henin, and Hingis was absolutely unpredictable on grass - from brilliant ot awful. Even chances. On US hardcourts and indoors it would be no contest. Hingis.

persond
Jun 13th, 2003, 05:06 AM
:cool: :cool: Children, children, children, again, this is just another "exercise in futility"...!!! Again, comparing atheletes across generations or "eras", is just "futile", and only ends up as an "opinionated mess" of a thread. Unfortunately, you'll not be able to go back and have them play, both at their best, so why beat yourselves over what will never happen...!!!...???...!!! :cool: :cool:


And, Shap_Half, I truely understand why you have so few "good rep" points...!!!

Robbie.
Jun 13th, 2003, 05:13 AM
Depends on a surface. On clay Justine would be favourite. Martina-97 could not beat Iva Majoli of all people. Henin plays supreme clay court tenins. On Rebound Ace, the best surface of Martina and very good surface of Justine it could be close. But I would still give Martina an advantage. Grass is a great surface of Henin, and Hingis was absolutely unpredictable on grass - from brilliant ot awful. Even chances. On US hardcourts and indoors it would be no contest. Hingis.

Grass may be a great surface for Henin, but Hingis has achieved more than her on it. The only time Hingis has been awful on grass is when she was injured or had just had a break down. To judge Hingis' grasscourt game on those results is like judging Justine's Claycourt game on her loss to Aniko Kapros (of all people)!

To compare Iva Majoli 1997 with Iva Majoli 2003 is unfair. At the time she was was a great player.

ys
Jun 13th, 2003, 05:23 AM
Grass may be a great surface for Henin, but Hingis has achieved more than her on it. The only time Hingis has been awful on grass is when she was injured or had just had a break down.

At least it was not "the only time" for Hingis.

In her only two Wimbledons since she was considered a top player, Henin reached finals and semis. In her last 4 Wimbledons Hingis had 1 semi, one quarterfinal and two early round losses. The one Hingis won in 1997 was just a lucky time for Martina - Davenport and Williams were not there yet, and Graf was injured. The only real opponent was Novotna. Compare that to opposition Henin has to face these days at W.

Sam L
Jun 13th, 2003, 05:26 AM
Martina-97 could not beat Iva Majoli of all people.

What do you mean by that? Iva is a great claycourt player. She's not now, but in 1997 she was. She won Hamburg and French Open. I bet she can even beat Justine of now if she concentrated on her game and if injuries didn't get in her way. Don't think Majoli was a fluke, she's just an underachiever. She should have more than that French Open.

Robbie.
Jun 13th, 2003, 05:47 AM
At least it was not "the only time" for Hingis.

In her only two Wimbledons since she was considered a top player, Henin reached finals and semis. In her last 4 Wimbledons Hingis had 1 semi, one quarterfinal and two early round losses. The one Hingis won in 1997 was just a lucky time for Martina - Davenport and Williams were not there yet, and Graf was injured. The only real opponent was Novotna. Compare that to opposition Henin has to face these days at W.

The only decent (and in reasonable form) grasscourt player that Justine has ever beaten at Wimbledon is Jennifer Capriati, and even she has never reached a Wimbledon final.

Don't dismiss Novotna, she is one of the great Grasscourt players of the nineties. Infact I would go as far as to say she was the second best (after steffi), judging by her Wimbledon results.Between 1993-1999 Novotna never fell before the quarters of Wimbledon, reaching 3 finals (winning one), and a semifinal. During that time she lost only to Graf (3 times, the eventual champ), Hingis (eventual champ), Navratilova (eventual finalist) and Davenport (eventual champ). That is outstanding by anyone's measure. Beating such a grass court specialist in a Wimbledon final can hardly be considered luck.

Who are the great grass court players that Justine must face now? Serena and Venus and perhaps Lindsay but she is always injured. The only times that Justine has faced a genuine grass court champ she has been crushed. There are always a shortage of genuine grasscourt players. If Hingis has been lucky at Wimbledon then Henin has been equally lucky.

Mrs. Peel
Jun 13th, 2003, 06:19 AM
they did play, actually. Twice in 2000. Martina won easily both times.


Dayummmmmmmm! :o :o

Knizzle
Jun 13th, 2003, 06:37 AM
I think Hingis of 97-00 would beat Justine in straight sets. Martina would exploit Justine's weaknesses the same way Venus does.

Mr. Man
Jun 13th, 2003, 06:42 AM
Right on Knizzle.

Martina 6:3 6:3. ;)

go hingis
Jun 13th, 2003, 06:46 AM
Martina 97 will kick Justine's ass, IMO.

Justine doesn't have as much power as Serena and Venus and Hingis stuck with them.
Martina would just have to keep the ball in play and be consistant, Henin 2003 will make many more errors. Also Martina burst to the scene as a confident teenager, Henin still doesn't have that confidence, this might be a good thing, she doesn't have to worry about losing it.

o0O0o
Jun 13th, 2003, 06:49 AM
Actually, Hingis of 97 would beat anyone except Serena. But I'd still pick Hingis on some surfaces.

Robbie.
Jun 13th, 2003, 06:54 AM
Actually, Hingis of 97 would beat anyone except Serena. But I'd still pick Hingis on some surfaces.

absolutely agree :D

cynicole
Jun 13th, 2003, 07:33 AM
Too bad Martina was "ahead of her time." Imagine if Hingis 1997 was around today and was in the bottom half of the RG draw. She would've rolled over Justine [and Kim] won Roland Garros and gotten her career GS.

</sarcasm>

great smash
Jun 13th, 2003, 09:29 AM
Don't you think the level of play these days is better than back in 1997?

You simply can't tell. What I do remember is that when Hingis played Justine at the AO, she spoke at how well she had to play in order to beat Justine.

Don't compare things you can't and draw conclusions too soon

irma
Jun 13th, 2003, 09:33 AM
about carpet

if amanda c can beat martina on it then justine can too even when amanda c in 97 didn't make errors. I still call justine a better player. I am sure she had double bageled steffi that year on clay (but then martina would have too)

and martina in 97 lost 5 matches, that's amazing for a 16 year old but she was not unbeatable or something like that!

schris
Jun 13th, 2003, 09:34 AM
We will never know !!!

Glenn
Jun 13th, 2003, 09:44 AM
LOL@ all these comments.
The game has evolved so much since 1997, if the Hingis of 1997 would be playing now, she wouldn't stand a chance against anyone out of the top 5.
Seriously, did anyone watch matches from back in 1997, you get irritated watching them because they don't go for a winner when they can ever.
You can't compare the 2 because it's in completely different generations.

XMan
Jun 13th, 2003, 09:48 AM
Justine in straight sets I think, but it is difficult to compare. The level of play definitly increased.

NaF
Jun 13th, 2003, 11:14 AM
I miss Marti.... :sad:

Both are great players... too bad we can't watch the 2 play each other anymore...

I'd give more support on Marti though.... i just love her so much!
But after her retirement, I'd route for Justine than anyother player.. beside Widjaja, Prakusya and Clijsters :)

rikvanlooy
Jun 13th, 2003, 11:42 AM
LOL@ all these comments.
The game has evolved so much since 1997, if the Hingis of 1997 would be playing now, she wouldn't stand a chance against anyone out of the top 5.
Seriously, did anyone watch matches from back in 1997, you get irritated watching them because they don't go for a winner when they can ever.
You can't compare the 2 because it's in completely different generations.

You're so right. On French television I saw some images of the win of Noah at RG. I couldn't believe my eyes (Justine serves faster than Noah). I'm not sure that Serena would lose against these players. The game has totally changed.

Justine has been obliged to bulk up (look also at the bodies of Dokic and Meghan). The Sisters have totally changed the game. Players like Hingis (with enormous talent) don't stand a chance against the real power players of now. Once the Sisters learned to keep their power in check Hingis had no chance any more.

It's silly to talk about the losses of Justine against Hingis in 2000. Justine only started playing as a pro in the middle of 1999. How many years was Hingis a pro in 2000 (6 ?)

Justine has become a power player with brains. I can't imagine that she won't win anything anymore in her career. Her trainer thinks that the win at RG will be the beginning of a tremendous career. Henin wants to play at least 10 more years. So if she wins 1 GS every 2 years she will have won as many GS as Hingis has. That's very much a possibility. There are not a lot of players who are able to beat Justine on clay.

moby
Jun 13th, 2003, 12:11 PM
In fact in Venus' 20 match winning streak at Wimby Hingis was the only one who even looked like beating her. So apart from when she was incapacitated she was very effective on grass :D

i remember this point from the 2000 wimbledon. venus pushed martina around the court and martina put up a short lob to the deuce court on venus' side. venus let it bounce, then smashed it sharply crosscourt.

it wasnt until then that i noticed that martina had materialised on that end of the court and she hit a forehand dtl winner. amazing stuff. somehow in that span of a few seconds martina corrected anticipated venus shot and was able to counteract the power by hitting a winner of it.

With such magic, the 97 hingis would beat the henin now easily on hardcourts and in 3 sets on grass or clay. in fact i believe that the 01/02 hingis would have beaten henin now even though she was no longer the same player.

irma
Jun 13th, 2003, 12:17 PM
so the competition went down a lot in the last 6 months?

moby
Jun 13th, 2003, 12:25 PM
no. i'm not talking about martina after the us open where she was obviously in terrible form. i was talking about martina earlier in the season.

as for the competition going down... well, serena's level has definitely dropped since last year. as has venus'. jennifer needs to get herself in her 2001 shape again. daniela is... hmmm...

on top of that, its not like justine wasnt in the top 10 last year. in fact she's been in the top 10 for 2 years already. so she only had to overtake a couple of players to get to her current rank?

*JR*
Jun 13th, 2003, 12:27 PM
I wonder what odds the London bookies will give if I want to bet that Marti will be back by '05. :confused:

irma
Jun 13th, 2003, 12:35 PM
maybe you are right but that was rebound ace a surface martina is always confident on till 6:4 4:0 last year

moby
Jun 13th, 2003, 12:36 PM
oh and i forgot
justine loves to feed off pace

you can be sure that martina knows that and wont give her any pace at all. she'll also give justine high balls to her backhand and hit the ball deep. imo, marti rarely loses to anyone who doesnt have A LOT of power and precision.

fleemkeł
Jun 13th, 2003, 01:04 PM
Maybe Henin her serve is better but Martina had such an insight in tha game :eek: and that was one of her strongest wapens ... I would like to see those 2 play against eachother!

moby
Jun 13th, 2003, 01:33 PM
Maybe Henin her serve is better but Martina had such an insight in tha game :eek: and that was one of her strongest wapens ... I would like to see those 2 play against eachother!

martina... :sad:

heartBREAKeRS
Jun 13th, 2003, 01:45 PM
Heellll no.... Martina will win over Justine... That I know for sure... Even in Martina time she WAS a treat to the williams.. so that means that she was good like hell... her cover of the court and her tatics skill was fantasity.....


Hail to Martina :worship: :hearts: :worship: :bounce:

Mister B
Jun 13th, 2003, 01:45 PM
I remember last year.. Martina and Justine had the chance to meet 2 times, in Montreal and New Haven, and both lost before the semis so they never met in any of the 2.. but it wouldn't have been a match to base ourselves, because Martina was faaaaaar from her real level..

ys
Jun 13th, 2003, 02:41 PM
LOL@ all these comments.
The game has evolved so much since 1997, if the Hingis of 1997 would be playing now, she wouldn't stand a chance against anyone out of the top 5.
Seriously, did anyone watch matches from back in 1997, you get irritated watching them because they don't go for a winner when they can ever.
You can't compare the 2 because it's in completely different generations.

You would not need to compare a Hingis of 1997. Hingis of 2002, January was every single bit as good as in 1997. And better than Henin.

Game developes within few years, but not that much. I remember, when Graf was coming back after surgery in 1998, they said she had no chance, that the game got faster, and she is old and had so many injuries. Yet, Graf managed to be very competitive. People are judging Hingis by her last playing period, when she was playing injured and could not do much. They quickly forgot how good she actually was..

hingis-seles
Jun 13th, 2003, 05:16 PM
Everyone's talking like Power tennis didn't exist before the Williams Sisters showed up. What about Graf and Seles, the two women who introduced power to the women's game?

In response to this thread, I pick Hingis. She was simply too smart.

CanIGetAWhat
Jun 13th, 2003, 05:36 PM
Hingis in two sets. She didn't win 3 slams and a bunch of tournaments for nothing. To beat the Hingis of 97, you had to practically play flawless tennis. Hingis in 97 was so mentally strong and wasn't rattled by anything.

Hardcourts, clay, rebound and indoor would favor Martina Hingis while grass, IMO, would be a tossup.

Fedcup
Jun 13th, 2003, 09:28 PM
Without a doubt Martina Hingis of 1997 would destroy Henin of 2003.

People are acting Like Justine is dominating the sport or something... this is still the same kid who needed gamesmenship and a racial crowd to hold a trophy.

Yeah that's why she defeated Kim in the final?

Cause she needed to win the final you know to take the trophy!
Tennis isn't simply about defeating Serena. There are 6 other players t odefeat to take the trophy

Mrs. Peel
Jun 13th, 2003, 10:08 PM
and back then...Martina played so clean with so few errors...It would be shocking to see her double fault!

o0O0o
Jun 14th, 2003, 12:17 AM
Don't remind me Mrs. Peel.

Compare this statistic:

Hingis vs. Seles Aussie 2002
Hingis wins 4-6 6-1 6-4
Hingis committed 11 unforced errors in 27 games.

Hingis vs. Seles US Open 2002
Seles wins 6-4 6-2
Hingis committed over 40 errors in 18 games.

Her last comeback was so saddening...she was weaker, slower, and made so many errors...

Kart
Jun 14th, 2003, 12:20 AM
In 1997, Martina was one match away from the grand slam.

She would beat Justine, any time, any place.

shap_half
Jun 14th, 2003, 12:45 AM
And, Shap_Half, I truely understand why you have so few "good rep" points...!!!

and why is this exactly? let me know coz i'd like to know how you know i have very little good rep points and exactly why i don't get them...

anyhow, i think whoever said that martina can serve better than justine must be blind and only with a strong dislike for justine can anyone really say that. martina herself have said that she isn't a power hitter. justine can serve big and can get a lot of cheap points off it from just about every surface...

WE LOVE MARTINA HINGIS
WE LOVE JUSTINE HENIN-HARDENNE

LeonHart
Jun 14th, 2003, 01:37 AM
Most ppl saying that Justine would win are remembering Martina's 2002 form in US Open. That was by far the worst I have seen Martina play..ugh her game with Seles was UGLY. She made so many UEs, and most of her shots were short....just watch tapes of Martina back in the day, she was much better, even hitting some aces every now and then :p.

1jackson2001
Jun 14th, 2003, 01:40 AM
Hingis of '97 is my pick. ;)

Ryan
Jun 14th, 2003, 02:14 AM
and why is this exactly? let me know coz i'd like to know how you know i have very little good rep points and exactly why i don't get them...

anyhow, i think whoever said that martina can serve better than justine must be blind and only with a strong dislike for justine can anyone really say that. martina herself have said that she isn't a power hitter. justine can serve big and can get a lot of cheap points off it from just about every surface...

WE LOVE MARTINA HINGIS
WE LOVE JUSTINE HENIN-HARDENNE



I believe people here were saying Hingis' serve in 1997 was much better than her OWN in 2002, not Justines. But if you can find something stating otherwise, please quote it.

Mister B
Jun 15th, 2003, 02:32 AM
no, I have tapes from Martina in US Open 1997 and Aus 2002, and she has pretty much the same serve.. I never saw her hit over 104 MPH, but I heard she hit once over 107 MPH(I don't know when)...

Martina said it herself in last January 2002, that she was a more complete player now than in 1997.. she said the only difference is the competition, and she was right.. Take the Martina of early 2002 and put her again in 1997, and I'm absolutely certain she would repeat it!! I saw all her matches in Aus Open 2002 (before 6-4, 4-0 in the finals) and she was playing REAAALLY well, totally flawless, a lot better than in mid-2001, where she lost to Seles twice.. in late 2002, her play was totally changed and we could see her feet were hurt, she was so slow and her movement was a lot reduced, which led to a great amount of UFEs..

Robbie.
Jun 15th, 2003, 02:42 AM
no, I have tapes from Martina in US Open 1997 and Aus 2002, and she has pretty much the same serve.. I never saw her hit over 104 MPH, but I heard she hit once over 107 MPH(I don't know when)...

Martina said it herself in last January 2002, that she was a more complete player now than in 1997.. she said the only difference is the competition, and she was right.. Take the Martina of early 2002 and put her again in 1997, and I'm absolutely certain she would repeat it!! I saw all her matches in Aus Open 2002 (before 6-4, 4-0 in the finals) and she was playing REAAALLY well, totally flawless, a lot better than in mid-2001, where she lost to Seles twice.. in late 2002, her play was totally changed and we could see her feet were hurt, she was so slow and her movement was a lot reduced, which led to a great amount of UFEs..

Martina in January 2002 was the best Martina gamewise we had seen in some time and what was the result? She should have been undefeated. I remember MANY comments about how vastly imrpoved her serve was from the recent past, it doesn't suprise me that you say it was back at her 1997 level. In 2001 her serve was meek and it showed in her results. Before 2001, Hingis held her own against virtually everyone. She might not have been the DOMINANT top player in the world, but it was hard to say that anyone was better than her on a consistent basis. The biggest difference between Hingis 1997 and Hingis January 2002 was her mind. And thats a big difference. There is no chance in hell that Martina 1997 would have choked away the lead she had in the AO final.

Mister B
Jun 15th, 2003, 03:08 AM
yah I agree, that was the big difference.. and I think it's because of the harder competition.. in 1997, she didn't have a big rival, and in 2001-2002 there were the Williams and Capriati, which were major rivals.. so these losses might have affected her mental yah..

I miss Marti so much!!

shap_half
Jun 15th, 2003, 06:28 PM
I miss Marti so much!!

Me, too!!!!!! :(

Martina brought soo much to the sport not just with her amazing tennis abilities but with her quick wit and personality!

justine&coria
Jun 15th, 2003, 07:54 PM
Why do some people here dislike/hate and underestimate Justine ? :fiery: :mad: . The Justine 2003 is very different from the Justine 2001 or 2002 !

Justine is the only one who has 4 titles this year. She’s 1st in the Porshe Ranking. :bounce: :)

She’s the only one who beat the “unbeatable player” twice this year, and who has a positive head-to-head to Serena this year. You might say she cheated, she was helped by a “racist crowd”, but you can’t deny she played really well against Serena at RG, especially in the first 2 sets and the end of the 3rd set : she could/ should have won this match in 2 sets, if she didn’t have some errors at the wrong moment : the cheating and the public’s help controversy then wouldn’t even exist. Some people here were saying Justine would be blown away by Serena, but it wasn’t the case !
Justine2003 only has 2 negative head-to-heads this year to Venus and Dementieva but they played only once.

At RG, she had 3 matches when she had more winners than unforced errors (Serena had 1, Venus and Clijsters too) : and it’s on clay. Sure, she had bad matches at RG, but the Justine 2003 knows, much than before, when to raise her level, and make less UEs. Justine probably can’t double-bagel Schett, or destroy Mauresmo, as Serena did at RG or Wimby, but a win is a win even when you win 12/10 in the 3rd set. :angel: :angel:
Do you really think Justine will have a crap hardcourt season ? Of course every thing can happen, but the results, she had so far, she probably won’t ! Those who are thinking this way, are just hoping for that to happen, but they know there’s small chance it happens. :o :o

Maybe, those people, who hate Justine, are frustrated : either they are fans of Serena and it’s understandable (because Justine broke 2 of her records this year = winning-streaks at the beginning of the year + in Grand Slam). Or these people are other fans (especially some Lindsay’s fans in this forum), and they are frustrated because the one they’re cheering for, just hasn’t been able to do what justine did.

And it’s not because you didn’t win many Slams that you’re not a great player : just want to tell you there must have been a beginning for every thing : before Serena and Hingis won their first Slam, they didn’t win 1 Slam ! It’s incredible ! :angel:

Someone in another thread was asking why there’s a “Justine Mania” (because there are, according to him, too many thread about Justine) and there wasn’t an “Iva Majoli mania” when she won RG. What a stupid question ? I’ve answered to it at the beginning of my post.

I’m not saying Justine would destroy Hingis and that it’s bad saying Hingis would destroy Justine. But I’m just wondering why some people hate and underestimate someone who’s bringing a lot to tennis.

The question asked in this thread could be this one : “Who do you prefer : Justine 2003 or Hingis 1997 ? “. We will never know. Anyway, I think Justine 2003 would beat Hingis 1997 (perhaps because I’m a fan of hers).
Justine 2003, when she beat top players this year, didn’t have so many Unforced errors (not the same as Justine 2001 or 2002).
I was really impressed by the way Hingis played, but if Justine 2003 can handle Serena, Mauresmo, Davenport, she definitely would have beaten Hingis : especially on clay (but the Justine 2003 didn’t have a lot of matches on hardcourt, so can we compare ?)
‘Easy’ was saying “Martina would just have to keep the ball in play and be consistant, Henin 2003 will make many more errors.” Did you see the 1st set of the Justine-Serena’s match or the 1st set of the Justine-Kim’s match ? She played really well : she didn’t have many errors and was putting great pressure on them by making great shots!

And when Martina was dominating the WTA in 1997, were her opponents as good as today ? Serena and Venus has improved a lot, (Martina may have been a threat to them in 1997 but it’s not the same). They were making too much errors. Steffy, Lindsay weren’t at their best. Maybe Monica, and Pierce (?), but that’s almost all. It’s very far from what Serena did last year, for example!

Sorry, for being this long!

moby
Jun 16th, 2003, 03:27 PM
‘Easy’ was saying “Martina would just have to keep the ball in play and be consistant, Henin 2003 will make many more errors.” Did you see the 1st set of the Justine-Serena’s match or the 1st set of the Justine-Kim’s match ? She played really well : she didn’t have many errors and was putting great pressure on them by making great shots!

actually i didn't say that... it was go hingis...
This is what I said, and I still stand by it

oh and i forgot
justine loves to feed off pace

you can be sure that martina knows that and wont give her any pace at all. she'll also give justine high balls to her backhand and hit the ball deep. imo, marti rarely loses to anyone who doesnt have A LOT of power and precision.

notice how justine struggled in the earlier rounds in RG against opponents who didnt hit as hard, forcing her to generate her own power if she wanted to hit winners. well, martina is a tactically astute player and she will exploit this weakness of justine's

+ the depth of the shots of 97 martina was simply astounding. justine wont have many opportunities to attack short balls.

seldom83
Jun 16th, 2003, 03:54 PM
i think it would be a close match, with the edge to hingis, cuz of her intelligence...but in a year or so justine would wail her

Fedcup
Jun 16th, 2003, 06:20 PM
oh and i forgot
justine loves to feed off pace

you can be sure that martina knows that and wont give her any pace at all. she'll also give justine high balls to her backhand and hit the ball deep. imo, marti rarely loses to anyone who doesnt have A LOT of power and precision.


You're suggesting Justine is a player who doesn't has a lot of power and precision???

Sorry but I can simply :D with that statement.

And don't come with the fact of "Justine having difficult with players at the first rounds at RG this year"
Cause the only difficulty she had was against Patty. And she a very goo player when on-form. And Patty was. But on the end Justine found the key to win the match.

The first round...wel Justine has always been a slow starter. If she would heave met those players to the end of RG....

ComeBackHingis
Jun 16th, 2003, 06:24 PM
Hingis Easily!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bella
Jun 16th, 2003, 07:24 PM
i think it would be a close match, with the edge to hingis, cuz of her intelligence...but in a year or so justine would wail her

Can you really assume Justine will be that much better (or even better) in one year?

To whoever said Martina has won three slams: it's five.

BrianII
Jun 16th, 2003, 08:14 PM
'97 was a transition year Hingis wasn't better than hingis in susequent years as people are trying to make out, she was simply better than anyone else around. The best I have probably seen hingis play was '98 Chase final (usually overlooked possibly cos it wasn't a slam) against davenport, she was definetly sleeker faster and more powerful than in '97( but still aggessive). Hingis' weakness is not power players its fast power player or at least not slow ones ....there wern't any in 97 steffi was injured the williamses had no experience slow powerplayers Davenport..Pierce Monica stood little chance against hingis. The difference between hingis 97 and subsequent years was more that she was fearless in 97, she had a massive array of shots and wasn't afraid to use them ..but I think it was more youthful aggression than natural aggression once she settled in to no1 her game became increasingly more conservative over the years with only an occassional flash of the aggression of '97......Justine on the other hand is the very thing that martina has had problems with, a fast aggressive player it would be a tough call, martina being supremly confident but henin a far better athelete.....one of the matches hingis lost in '97 was to lisa raymond which just goes to show how tough a call it is because lisa of '97 was no justine henin of 2003.

DA FOREHAND
Jun 16th, 2003, 08:28 PM
One loss does to Raymond is not enough to base any kind of logical conclusion on. For the most part I agree with your assesment, but Martina would have no problem w/justine's serve, or groundies.

Unfortunately this is a match-up that's we're very unlikely to see.

Ryan
Jun 16th, 2003, 08:33 PM
BrianII: Not only was Hingis better in 1997, she was faster, DID have a stronger serve(watch any hingis match and a commentator will mention it).

DA FOREHAND
Jun 16th, 2003, 08:35 PM
Hingis 02 A.O. could compete w/the girls today physically, it was her confidence that'd been beaten up, and once you lose that......it's a slippery slope.

moby
Jun 20th, 2003, 12:31 PM
You're suggesting Justine is a player who doesn't has a lot of power and precision???

Sorry but I can simply :D with that statement.

And don't come with the fact of "Justine having difficult with players at the first rounds at RG this year"
Cause the only difficulty she had was against Patty. And she a very goo player when on-form. And Patty was. But on the end Justine found the key to win the match.

The first round...wel Justine has always been a slow starter. If she would heave met those players to the end of RG....


I'm not suggesting Justine isn't accurate or powerful
But she just isn't powerful enough and with the 97 martina, you really have to go for all or broke, which is simply not justine's game

and the point i was trying to make is not justine having difficulties early in RG, but her weakness against "opponents who didnt hit as hard, forcing her to generate her own power if she wanted to hit winners". she faced such a player in the 1st round of RG and also in Charleston I believe.

Both times she pulled out a win, but much tougher then it should be on paper. This is because she much better than those players. Martina of 97 isnt your average run-of-the-mill player.

rikvanlooy
Jun 20th, 2003, 12:56 PM
Can you really assume Justine will be that much better (or even better) in one year?

To whoever said Martina has won three slams: it's five.

The answer is yes. She has been training now in the USA for only half a year (look at the enormous improvement in her results in that same period) . Her trainer has stated several times that it will take at least two years before she will have enough muscles to compete with the best. I'm almost certain that Justine will be a awesome player in 2005-2006.

It seems that only the two Belgians have improved enormously the last year. It looks as if they are the only female players who have learned to play like the men. Most female power babes just try to hit the ball as hard as they can and then they hope that the ball doesn't come back (Serena, Venus, Davenport, Capriati, Dementieva, Dokic, ...).

Kim and Justine also play the power game, but they try to play the angles, drop shots, variety, .... This makes the difference with the other players. I've read several times that other players hit the ball harder than Kim, but that doesn't count for anything. Kim and Justine are so fast that they can retrieve those balls (look at what happens to Davenport nowadays if she plays against Kim). The two Belgian players outthink their opponents.

BTW : Hingis had probably more talent, but the lack of power had become to big for her to further dominate the tour.

Ryan
Jun 20th, 2003, 03:34 PM
The answer is yes. She has been training now in the USA for only half a year (look at the enormous improvement in her results in that same period) . Her trainer has stated several times that it will take at least two years before she will have enough muscles to compete with the best. I'm almost certain that Justine will be a awesome player in 2005-2006.

It seems that only the two Belgians have improved enormously the last year. It looks as if they are the only female players who have learned to play like the men. Most female power babes just try to hit the ball as hard as they can and then they hope that the ball doesn't come back (Serena, Venus, Davenport, Capriati, Dementieva, Dokic, ...).

Kim and Justine also play the power game, but they try to play the angles, drop shots, variety, .... This makes the difference with the other players. I've read several times that other players hit the ball harder than Kim, but that doesn't count for anything. Kim and Justine are so fast that they can retrieve those balls (look at what happens to Davenport nowadays if she plays against Kim). The two Belgian players outthink their opponents.

BTW : Hingis had probably more talent, but the lack of power had become to big for her to further dominate the tour.


If the fact that the other girls hit harder than Kim, but it doesn't count for anything, why has Kim only beaten Serena ONCE, and Venus once? You'd think if she's so superior with her angles and variety she'd smoke them every time.:)

Experimentee
Jun 20th, 2003, 03:39 PM
Martina 97 of course. Maybe Justine has a chance if it was on clay.

rikvanlooy
Jun 20th, 2003, 03:41 PM
If the fact that the other girls hit harder than Kim, but it doesn't count for anything, why has Kim only beaten Serena ONCE, and Venus once? You'd think if she's so superior with her angles and variety she'd smoke them every time.:)

Venus twice : 4-2 is the h2h

The Sisters are still too strong for Kim, but the other players not.

That was different last year.

Since the US Open of last year :

Henin/Clijsters - Serena/Venus : 4-4 h2h

Since the beginning of the year :

Henin/Clijsters - Mauresmo/Seles/Capriati/Davenport : 9-0 h2h
Henin/Clijsters - Serena/Venus : 2-4 h2h

Ryan
Jun 20th, 2003, 03:58 PM
5-0 ret. hardly counts as a win, unless you're desperate. :)


And why are you comparing Henin/Clijsters together? Are they a new, powerful crime fighting force to take out the un-original power players? :rolleyes:


I'm not denying that they are great players. I think Justine is obviously the more talented of the two. But I don't think comparing their h2h together is smart. It's only being done because Henin is better then Kim in terms of beating top players.

DA FOREHAND
Jun 20th, 2003, 03:59 PM
"Since the US Open of last year :

Henin/Clijsters - Serena/Venus : 4-4 h2h "

They still haven't gotten a bead on Venus. Of those four losses three belong to Serena. Venus has crushed Kim and justine this year.

Jamie
Jun 22nd, 2003, 08:02 AM
Martina at her best was and is unbeatable. She has the most natural game.