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View Full Version : Why does Justine do poorly on hard courts?


jenglisbe
Jun 12th, 2003, 08:56 PM
Not that Henin-Hardenne is bad on hard courts, but her results during the summer hard court seasons are nowhere near as good as her results on clay and grass. Why is this?

I can understand Justine being good on clay - she has more time to hit her long strokes, and the power of players like Serena is blunted.

Justin's good record on grass surprises me, and that is only heightened by her relative poor results on the hard courts (never getting past the 4th round at the U.S. Open).

Why is this?

Hendouble
Jun 12th, 2003, 09:10 PM
Well, I can see why she does well on grass - the low bounce means the ball comes through at the perfect height for her groundstrokes, she's good around the net and she's now getting more snap on the serve.

As for hardcourts, it seems she is vulnerable to the bigger hitters in the game because they can rush and overpower her from the back of the court. Although to be honest, it always seems to me that she struggles more against no-pace, heavily topspinning clay-courters because she likes to feed off pace and isn't great at generating her own when she is given high, floating balls around her shoulders.

o0O0o
Jun 12th, 2003, 09:14 PM
Very simple: Unlike other players who have had success on hard courts without power (Hingis and Coetzer, Sugiyama come to mind), Henin does not take the ball early. Hingis, for example, would refuse to be overpowered by standing on the baseline and as a result would almost have to half-volley a lot of very deep shots but it worked for her. Henin, however, takes the ball very late and as a result gets pushed back very far behind the baseline. She does this on all surfaces but clay best suits this style of game. On hardcourt she really lets herself get overpowered. If I were her coach I would tell her to sacrifice some retreiving by inching on the baseline and refusing to get pushed back.

SJW
Jun 12th, 2003, 09:17 PM
because they are FASTER and her speed isnt always enough to give her the opportunity to stay in the rally.

i agree shes good on grass because the ball bounces at a perfect height

actually...i dont think Henin HAS a real excuse for being "bad" on hardcourts :confused:

it will be interesting to see if the fact she has a better game prevails over players who have a better "surface game" (Irvin, Hantuchova, Rubin etc) on HC part II this year...

Hendouble
Jun 12th, 2003, 09:20 PM
Sorry if I'm not too clued up about it, but are her results actually that bad on hardcourts? Who did she lose to in some of the big summer tournaments last year, out of interest?

SJW
Jun 12th, 2003, 09:26 PM
well part II she lost to Irvin (like i said), JCap, Nastya and Dani outdoors....

Glenn
Jun 12th, 2003, 09:29 PM
She's been working on her hardcourt game specifically in Saddlebrook, I'm curious to see how it's worked out.
But still, she likes hardcourt the least, I don't think that will ever change.

SJW
Jun 12th, 2003, 09:30 PM
ok dude, ur sig is too big and thats coming from ME :p:kiss:;)

Glenn
Jun 12th, 2003, 09:31 PM
ok dude, ur sig is too big and thats coming from ME :p:kiss:;)
NO! :mad:

fleemke³
Jun 12th, 2003, 09:31 PM
this year Justine lost from
Kim (2 times), Venus en Chanda.
She won from Jennifer, Monica, Myskina, Casanova and Davenport

Well imo that isn't so bad :p

SJW
Jun 12th, 2003, 09:33 PM
NO! :mad:

YES! :p

yes fleemke....i guess she was out for revenge :angel:

Glenn
Jun 12th, 2003, 09:35 PM
do as i asked you sarah! :p

SJW
Jun 12th, 2003, 09:37 PM
pffffffffffft@a Justine fan telling me what to do :p

im SerenaJWilliams dammit :mad:

*JR*
Jun 12th, 2003, 09:46 PM
pffffffffffft@a Justine fan telling me what to do :p

im SerenaJWilliams dammit :mad:
Cari, her middle name is (-------) and there's this gurl from Malaysia named (--------).... :p

auntie janie
Jun 12th, 2003, 10:02 PM
Justine does have one hardcourt title already, so she is obviously starting to get better on this surface.

I think Justine's natural best surface is a slow one. But she succeeds on grass too because:

* She plays VERY well from a crouching position close to the ground, right where the ball will bounce on grass.

* She likes to, and is adept at, charging the net and ending points.

* She has a big serve & is able to serve and volley.

I completely disagree that Justine is not speedy -- in fact her speed around the court is phenomenal, equal to Kim's. I just think she is less experienced on hard courts. But she stays in Florida a lot now, and I am sure she is down there learning how to improve her hard court game. And it's working! Hence, the title she won in Dubai earlier this year, beating MYSKINA, CAPRIATI, and SELES. :)

Sanneriet
Jun 12th, 2003, 10:13 PM
The ball also bounces more consistently on hard courts, regardless of the type of spin. This means her opponents are not having to make as many adjustments in footwork to blast back her shots.

*JR*
Jun 12th, 2003, 10:20 PM
* She plays VERY well from a crouching position close to the ground, right where the ball will bounce on grass.

"Just" for fun, here's a h2h where someone else is hitting "closer to the ground" than Juju:
Justine HENIN-HARDENNE (BEL) v Amanda COETZER (RSA)

2000 New Haven Hard (O) 16 Amanda COETZER 2-6 6-4 1-6
2001 Hamburg Clay (O) QF Amanda COETZER 5-7 6-4 2-6
2003 Sydney Hard (O) QF Justine HENIN-HARDENNE 6-4 6-4

Amanda COETZER (RSA) leads 2 : 1

faboozadoo15
Jun 12th, 2003, 10:21 PM
she needs more time to set up for her shots than she gets when she plays a power hitter on a hardcourt. on grass, she gets a much more effective volley, and the ball bounce is lower, and so is she. for clay, she has time for her artfult shots, and she slides well.

Knizzle
Jun 12th, 2003, 10:23 PM
Very simple: Unlike other players who have had success on hard courts without power (Hingis and Coetzer, Sugiyama come to mind), Henin does not take the ball early. Hingis, for example, would refuse to be overpowered by standing on the baseline and as a result would almost have to half-volley a lot of very deep shots but it worked for her. Henin, however, takes the ball very late and as a result gets pushed back very far behind the baseline. She does this on all surfaces but clay best suits this style of game. On hardcourt she really lets herself get overpowered. If I were her coach I would tell her to sacrifice some retreiving by inching on the baseline and refusing to get pushed back.

It's hard to take the ball early with a one-handed backhand especially for Henin because she is so short. That's why looping high to Henin's backhand is a good tactic to use against her because it draws short balls.

Rtael
Jun 12th, 2003, 11:12 PM
"Just" for fun, here's a h2h where someone else is hitting "closer to the ground" than Juju:
Justine HENIN-HARDENNE (BEL) v Amanda COETZER (RSA)

2000 New Haven Hard (O) 16 Amanda COETZER 2-6 6-4 1-6
2001 Hamburg Clay (O) QF Amanda COETZER 5-7 6-4 2-6
2003 Sydney Hard (O) QF Justine HENIN-HARDENNE 6-4 6-4

Amanda COETZER (RSA) leads 2 : 1


lol, one of those was in her first year on the pro tour....no excuse for the second one, but the two losses were in 3 sets and she won the last one in straights on her worst surface....

jenny161185
Jun 13th, 2003, 12:01 AM
I think she'll really improve on her 4th round showing of last year at the USO - she will probably reach the semis - shes beaten monica lindsay and jen this year on hardcourts

Celeste
Jun 13th, 2003, 12:15 AM
.......
Although to be honest, it always seems to me that she struggles more against no-pace, heavily topspinning clay-courters because she likes to feed off pace and isn't great at generating her own when she is given high, floating balls around her shoulders.

You nailed it completely. That is how Dementieva beat her this year. Dementieva did not play power that day, she played precisely how you described. I could not have said it better myself. Excellent observation and entirely accurate.

Hurley
Jun 13th, 2003, 12:16 AM
She broke her finger during her loss to Irvin....

Frank_Rulez
Jun 13th, 2003, 03:05 AM
lol, one of those was in her first year on the pro tour....no excuse for the second one, but the two losses were in 3 sets and she won the last one in straights on her worst surface....
actually Rebound Ace is not a bad surface for Justine,
she after all did take out Lindsay Davenport in Australian Open,
it's the faster American court that is troubling her...:(
i guess that's one of the reasons she is comitting so few events.

ys
Jun 13th, 2003, 03:09 AM
In terms of groundstrokes pace the US hardcourts are the fastest service available. So singlehander topspin backhands don't really work there.

Brαm
Jun 13th, 2003, 11:16 AM
In terms of groundstrokes pace the US hardcourts are the fastest service available. So singlehander topspin backhands don't really work there.
Topspin :confused: I think her backhand is pretty flat, really!

Greenout
Jun 13th, 2003, 11:29 AM
You can't compare last year to this year for
Justine. Last year she was re-working her
game to improve her serves, and do a better
forehand. If you noticed she's changed her
serve style from previous years. I think
she'll do way better this year than previous
years since she's got a bigger serve now. I recall
the previous hardcourt season's being mainly
1 handed backhand stuff and the not ideal the
hardcourt game.

Just watch- 2003 hardcourt vast improvements.

Scorch
Jun 13th, 2003, 11:43 AM
I think the next few weeks are going to be really interesting. We will see how Justine reacts to winning her first slam - I think that this boost in confidence will allow her to improve vastly. Its not just the technical side of the game but the mental side where Justine is soooo mcuh better.

As Greenout said, her summer will surely prove that she can be just as good on hardcourts.

By the way, out of the top 20 players how many would say their fav surface is hardcourt? I reckon most of them. Justine is one of the few who would say otherwise: here are my views (some are guesses):

1.Serena Williams (U.S.) HARD
2.Kim Clijsters (Belgium) HARD/ CLAY
3.Justine Henin-Hardenne (Belgium) CLAY/ GRASS
4.Venus Williams (U.S.) HARD
5.Lindsay Davenport (U.S.) HARD
6.Amelie Mauresmo (France) CLAY/ HARD
7.Chanda Rubin (U.S.) HARD/ GRASS (?)
8.Jennifer Capriati (U.S.) HARD
9.Daniela Hantuchova (Slovakia) HARD
10.Anastasia Myskina (Russia) HARD
11.Jelena Dokic (Yugoslavia) GRASS/ HARD
12.Ai Sugiyama (Japan) HARD
13.Magdalena Maleeva (Bulgaria) INDOOR
14.Eleni Daniilidou (Greece) HARD
15.Elena Dementieva (Russia) ?
16.Amanda Coetzer (South Africa) ?
17.Conchita Martinez (Spain) CLAY
18.Monica Seles (U.S.) HARD/ CLAY
19.Meghann Shaughnessy (U.S.) HARD
20.Vera Zvonareva (Russia) CLAY ?

By my guesses Justine is one of only a few players who does not count hardcourts in her top surfaces. Since most of the year is on hardcourts then she needs to improve to get to the top.

SJW
Jun 13th, 2003, 01:01 PM
She broke her finger during her loss to Irvin....

:rolleyes:

ps....Scorch i dont think Kims best surface is clay, in fact i think she prefers it LEAST. shes just real good on it

irma
Jun 13th, 2003, 01:06 PM
kim's favorite surface is indoor

jenglisbe
Jun 13th, 2003, 01:14 PM
janie - Ok, most of that makes sense, just not the comment on her serve. I wouldn't say she has as big of a serve as you made it seem. She doesn't hit a lot of aces, really, and while she can serve it at a decent speed, I don't know how effective it really is. I mean, I don't remember her getting a lot of cheap points off her serve. Maybe I just didn't pay attention, though.

More than any of that, though, she doesn't get a lot of 1st serves in. She tends to hover around 50% of her serves in, which isn't great.

I'm not saying her serve is bad - it's pretty decent. I just wouldn't call it "huge" (or whatever word you used).

jenglisbe
Jun 13th, 2003, 01:14 PM
irma - indoor isn't a surface ;)

Rtael
Jun 13th, 2003, 01:16 PM
irma - indoor isn't a surface ;)
It actually really isn't =P

Scorch
Jun 13th, 2003, 01:21 PM
OK then indoor hardcourt or carpet (not indoor clay or grass or slate or wood or ice or...)

I just love people who pick up on these important details! :p

Rtael
Jun 13th, 2003, 01:22 PM
There is Supreme Indoors, Green-set Indoors, Indoor Carpet, and Indoor Hardcourt

SJW
Jun 13th, 2003, 01:23 PM
u are sooooooooo difficult! :p

rikvanlooy
Jun 13th, 2003, 01:58 PM
irma - indoor isn't a surface ;)

It's not a surface but it makes a big difference (no wind, ...).

Kim and Davenport love to play indoor. Their way of playing seems to be made for playing indoor.

Capriati says that she loves to play when there is a lot of wind (eg. GS's). Her balls seem to be much more effective when they are influenced by the wind.

It's a shame for KIm that there are no slams indoor. Only the Championships are played indoor. Last year she won. The year before she had a enormous battle with Davenport in the semifinal. She fought so hard that Davenport injured herself (Serena won by default). I was not at all pleased that Kim lost that match. That were the matches the Belgians seemed to lose on a regular basis. Nowadays they seem to win those kind of matches almost allways (well, Justine does, Kim has lost such matches this year against Ai, Justine and Serena).

XMan
Jun 13th, 2003, 02:19 PM
Very simple: Unlike other players who have had success on hard courts without power (Hingis and Coetzer, Sugiyama come to mind), Henin does not take the ball early. Hingis, for example, would refuse to be overpowered by standing on the baseline and as a result would almost have to half-volley a lot of very deep shots but it worked for her. Henin, however, takes the ball very late and as a result gets pushed back very far behind the baseline. She does this on all surfaces but clay best suits this style of game. On hardcourt she really lets herself get overpowered. If I were her coach I would tell her to sacrifice some retreiving by inching on the baseline and refusing to get pushed back.

I think that Justine's powerfull groundstrokes are partially a result from the fact that she takes them early after the bounce. Justine uses the high velocity of the ball directly after the bounce and in this way she creates more power in her shots. There are of course situations where she is in a very defensive position, which pushes her to the back of the court, but normally she takes the ball early.

ys
Jun 13th, 2003, 02:22 PM
There is Supreme Indoors, Green-set Indoors, Indoor Carpet, and Indoor Hardcourt
There is indoor carpet and indoor hardcourts. Supreme is an old version of carpet. Greenset is more modern. Most of these days tournaments are played on Greenset carpet.

arn
Jun 13th, 2003, 02:23 PM
Justine has been working a lot during the winter on taking the ball earlier, so I'm hopeful for the American summer :)

ys
Jun 13th, 2003, 02:30 PM
1.Serena Williams (U.S.) HARD
2.Kim Clijsters (Belgium) HARD/ CLAY
3.Justine Henin-Hardenne (Belgium) CLAY/ GRASS
4.Venus Williams (U.S.) HARD
5.Lindsay Davenport (U.S.) HARD
6.Amelie Mauresmo (France) CLAY/ HARD
7.Chanda Rubin (U.S.) HARD/ GRASS (?)
8.Jennifer Capriati (U.S.) HARD
9.Daniela Hantuchova (Slovakia) HARD
10.Anastasia Myskina (Russia) HARD
11.Jelena Dokic (Yugoslavia) GRASS/ HARD
12.Ai Sugiyama (Japan) HARD
13.Magdalena Maleeva (Bulgaria) INDOOR
14.Eleni Daniilidou (Greece) HARD
15.Elena Dementieva (Russia) ?
16.Amanda Coetzer (South Africa) ?
17.Conchita Martinez (Spain) CLAY
18.Monica Seles (U.S.) HARD/ CLAY
19.Meghann Shaughnessy (U.S.) HARD
20.Vera Zvonareva (Russia) CLAY ?


1.Serena Williams (U.S.) US Hardcourts
2.Kim Clijsters (Belgium) Rebound Ace Hardcourts/ Clay
3.Justine Henin-Hardenne (Belgium) Clay/Rebound Ace
4.Venus Williams (U.S.) US Hardcourts/Grass
5.Lindsay Davenport (U.S.) US Hardcourts/Grass
6.Amelie Mauresmo (France) Clay/ Rebound Ace Hardcourts
7.Chanda Rubin (U.S.) Equally good on all surfaces.
8.Jennifer Capriati (U.S.) Prefers surfaces with higher bounce ( i.e. , not grass or carpet ). Equally good on Clay or hardcourts.
9.Daniela Hantuchova (Slovakia) Indoors.
10.Anastasia Myskina (Russia) Prefers fast surfaces. Hardcourts, grass, indoors
11.Jelena Dokic (Yugoslavia) Equally good on all surfaces
12.Ai Sugiyama (Japan) Equally good on all surfaces
13.Magdalena Maleeva (Bulgaria) Indoors
14.Eleni Daniilidou (Greece) Clay, Grass
15.Elena Dementieva (Russia) Prefers slower surfaces.
16.Amanda Coetzer (South Africa) Rebound Ace, Green Clay
17.Conchita Martinez (Spain) Clay
18.Monica Seles (U.S.) Hardcourts, Clay
19.Meghann Shaughnessy (U.S.) Hardcourts
20.Vera Zvonareva (Russia) Clay, Hardcourts

auntie janie
Jun 13th, 2003, 02:56 PM
Jason, I did not see Justine employ her big serve during Roland Garros, but earlier in the year she was hitting aces at 115 MPH. When she served for the match against Lindsay in Charleston, her final game featured 3 aces, all above 110 MPH. Maybe at Roland Garros she decided not to go for broke on her serve for some reason?

But I agree with you that she has to improve her first serve percentage, which is often pretty darn poor. Failing that, she needs to keep working on improving her 2nd serve, though I think it is pretty good now.

The thing with Justine is, you always know she is working hard on improving all aspects of her game. As someone said in anothe rpost or another thread, you can't even compare the 2002 version of Justine's game with this year's model; her game has changed a LOT. Now her forehand has become a big weapon; look out for it on the hard courts.

fleemke³
Jun 13th, 2003, 03:25 PM
Janie I heard that Pete Sampras his first service percentage wasn't high in the most matches but he had 80% of his points won on the services who went in.

I'm not comparing Justine with Pete but if you get 60% in and win 80% of the points (she has that often) than that's pretty good! Justine takes a lot of risc in her first service but it's worth it.

Nan Cu
Jun 13th, 2003, 03:41 PM
There is a vast difference between Indoor Hardcourt, and Indoor Carpet. As different as outdoor grass, and outdoor hardcourt.

I thought greenset was merely the "color" of the court, while supreme meant the actual "texture"" of the surface?

Eg: If a court is said to be "Greenset" it's a given to be green-colored hardcourt surface. If it was ""Supreme" it was carpet surface. No?

Nan Cu
Jun 13th, 2003, 03:46 PM
This goes to show how much you know.

5.Lindsay Davenport (U.S.) US Hardcourts/Grass

Lindsay Davenport is the BESTEST indoor carpet player on the WTA tour. Her hard flat strokes and perfect technique make her tough to beat.

Primula
Jun 13th, 2003, 03:50 PM
I think that Kim is the best indoor player!

arn
Jun 13th, 2003, 03:59 PM
This goes to show how much you know.



Lindsay Davenport is the BESTEST indoor carpet player on the WTA tour. Her hard flat strokes and perfect technique make her tough to beat.

I don't think he was talking about BEST surface of the player, but the surface they LIKE most.

Bella
Jun 13th, 2003, 04:10 PM
…but if you get 60% in and win 80% of the points (she has that often) than that's pretty good! Justine takes a lot of risc in her first service but it's worth it.

Well, that's 48% of the game points won on your first serve, which leaves 52% of the game points. So, do you know her numbers on the other 40%, the second serves? I'm curious.

Nan Cu
Jun 13th, 2003, 04:13 PM
Well, Maggie Maleeva being listed as liking the surface of ""indoors"" led me to believe he was referring to the surface the suits their games best. How does he know Serena prefers US hardcourts over, say, grass?

fleemke³
Jun 13th, 2003, 04:25 PM
Well, that's 48% of the points won on your first serve, which leaves 52% of the points. So, do you know her numbers on the other 40%, the second serves? I'm curious.

here you'll find a statistic from Pete
http://www.usopen.org/scores/stats/day14/0126ms.html
http://www.usopen.org/scores/stats/day13/0125ms.html

Here are some of Justine @RG
http://www.rolandgarros.com/en_FR/scores/stats/day11/0354ms.html
http://www.rolandgarros.com/en_FR/scores/stats/day9/0326ms.html

I'm not saying Justine is a better server than Pete lol but hey Pete was/is a great server and his statistics aren't that different ;)

Bella
Jun 13th, 2003, 05:40 PM
Thanks, fleemke. I looked it up myself. She isn't hitting 60 and 80, really, but she did great.

Patty Schnyder apparently topped them all with a 143 mph serve. Whoa, Patty! Obviously, she threw her arm out and that's why she lost the third set. Check it out.

http://www.rolandgarros.com/en_FR/scores/stats/day13/0368ms.html

auntie janie
Jun 13th, 2003, 06:03 PM
LOL! 143! She could join the circus with a trick shot like that! :D

Scorch
Jun 13th, 2003, 07:27 PM
Thanks for taking the baton ys :)

Nan Cu there's no need to get so anal about it, whats with all the 'shows what you know' talk????

auntie janie
Jun 14th, 2003, 12:25 PM
Here is what I mean by Justine palying low to the ground:

Hulet
Jun 14th, 2003, 01:01 PM
May be it's really hard to cheat on hard courts and that's probably why Justine doesn't do well?
:p

SJW
Jun 14th, 2003, 01:04 PM
LMFAO@ETA!!!!!!!!

*dead*

why is this thread still being discussed??! :angel:

auntie janie
Jun 14th, 2003, 01:46 PM
why is this thread still being discussed??!

SerenaJWilliams, I brought back the thread simply to post the photo. If you have no interest in this topic, it's a bit silly to post in the thread and thus keep it going even longer. But thanks for bumping it up so more people can see the pic. ;)

monicain
Jun 14th, 2003, 06:47 PM
It's all explained with her slice. Slice did rarely well on hardcourt, not to mention steffi.