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View Full Version : Are Henin/Clijsters 2003 as good as Linzi/Hingis 98-00?


liuxuan
Jun 12th, 2003, 12:14 AM
OK, so from 1998 until 2000, there were the big four who were considered the best and most exciting (excluding Graf's comeback and swift retirement), and that was Martina, Lindsay, Venus and Serena.

Since then however, Venus and Serena have gotten a lot better and the other two who now make up the big exciting four are Justine Henin and Kim Clijsters.

They are ranked 2 and 3 although most consider them to be 3rd and 4th best in the world. However, I was wondering how all you guys think they compare to the Hingis and Davenport pair in their prime.

Are Henin and Clijsters as good? Is Kim as good and powerful a hitter of the ball as LInzi? Would Henin at her best be better than Hingis at her best?

I never did think that the belgians were as good as LInzi and Martina were, but now i do believe that they are playing at a higher level and i now believe we are witnessing the highest quality of tennis from the top 4 we maybe have ever seen.

Do you guys think the Belgians in 2003 are better than Linzi and Martina were in 1997-2000?

Mad-About-Venus
Jun 12th, 2003, 12:20 AM
I don't think Justine compares to Martina in any way. Martina during her prime was able to compete and many times win against hard hitters on any surface, even hard. Justine just simply can't do it. Justine is an excellent clay player, but something tells me that her thunder is going to be stolen very quickly by Venus, Serena and definitely Kim. Justine is no competition to any of them outside of clay.

See ya next year Justine !!!!

cirelowe
Jun 12th, 2003, 12:29 AM
I don't think Justine compares to Martina in any way. Martina during her prime was able to compete and many times win against hard hitters on any surface, even hard. Justine just simply can't do it. Justine is an excellent clay player, but something tells me that her thunder is going to be stolen very quickly by Venus, Serena and definitely Kim. Justine is no competition to any of them outside of clay.

See ya next year Justine !!!!

I personally believe that tennis was at its Zenith when Lindsay and Martina routinely challenged the Williams Sisters! Their battles during 1998-2000 laid the foundation for what Kime and Justine are enjoying now!

This period now IS NOT comparable to 98-00 series. When Venus took on Lindsay;or Serena took on Hingis, no one really knew who would win! When Kim, or Justine, faces the WS, you kinda have that feeling that a WS will come out victorious.

Since Kim and Justine are not considered SERIOUS threats to the WS, most don't feel that we have the same energy that existed then!

I believe that once Lindsay gets her focus back, she's the only person that can succesfully challenge the sisters! She's the only player on the tour that's been in 7 finals in the last year! 7 finals! That's pretty darn good!


Cire

tennisIlove09
Jun 12th, 2003, 12:34 AM
cirelowe--While I agree to an extent, Henin-Hardenne beat Serena 3 of the last 4 times they've played. Yet we think the Williams will always come out the victor.

Obviously on a hardcourt/grass surface you'd expect a Williams. Now that's clay's over.

To me the biggest difference are the Williams themselves. They've cut down their errors (for the most part anyway), so they don't lose matches anymore. I don't mean to disrespect any Davenport or Hingis fans, but I don't think I've seen a match where Davenport or Hingis actually BEAT a sister. The closest thing that comes to my mind are the 2000 US Open QF (Davenport over Serena) and the 99 (?) BOW Final where Davenport beat Venus in three sets.

So are Henin and Clijsters as good? Who knows. It's hard to say because the Williams are that much better.

cirelowe
Jun 12th, 2003, 12:49 AM
Justine and Kim just don't do it for me! There's something about their game - outside of Clay - that leads me to believe that neither girl will succesfully challenge the Sisters on a regular basis!

Kim's lost to Serena at the AO was a shame! The sport, even 4 months after the fact, hasn't gotten over it! 5-1 in the 3rd, and you don't close out the match! Come on, Kim! You are better than that! And, TO NOT ADMIT YOU CHOKED! Please!

Hingis nor Lindsay would have blown a lead as such. They were, and still are, more solid players.

Justine's going around praying the mental game of Venus Williams! Why on earth would any player - especially one that you've lost to 7 times - let another player know that her mental game is tops!!? What kind of crap is that!????

Justine believes that Venus will beat her in every match; Kim has her doubts about Serena!


Cire

o0O0o
Jun 12th, 2003, 01:03 AM
Um Hingis BEAT Venus on many occasions. Look at their early matches, Hingis was serving and volleying. And Hingis sprinted past Serena at the Auusie Open quarterfinals by pumping up the aggression. Hingis earned her stripes in that match. So I disagree that the Williams sisters were never "beaten" by Hingis or Lindsay. LOL @ the thought.

And no, the Belgians aren't as good as Lindsay/Martina. They might be eventually but Justine doesn't take the ball as early as Martina and Kim still tends to make WAAAAAAy more errors than Lindsay. When and if they fix that, a comparison can be made.

Infiniti2001
Jun 12th, 2003, 01:17 AM
o0O0o , can't you repond to a topic without showing your contempt for the Williames?? :rolleyes: Meanwhile Venus and martina played 19 times with Martina winning 10 to Venus's 9.. Most of Martina's wins were early on in Venus's career . That's not many times UGH

Now to respond to the topic the answer is a resounding no-- no explanation needed.

o0O0o
Jun 12th, 2003, 01:23 AM
o0O0o , can't you repond to a topic without showing your contempt for the Williames?? :rolleyes: Meanwhile Venus and martina played 19 times with Martina winning 10 to Venus's 9.. Most of Martina's wins were early on in Venus's career . That's not many times UGH

Now to respond to the topic the answer is a resounding no-- no explanation needed.

And most of Venus' wins were when Hingis was at the end of her career! They had very few matches against eachother when both were in their prime. This could go on and on, but the point of my post was responding to Infiniti2001 who said that Hingis and Lindsay never actually beat a Williams sister, except for twice. By my count they've beaten them almost 30 times.

So I'm sure you'll forgive me to responding to a post in a non-offensive manner. :(

Bezz
Jun 12th, 2003, 01:24 AM
If for talking sake we picked justine and kim the way there are playing now and put them in 98-00, i would stil see martina and lindsay beating them both. KIm can make loads of errors and i still think justine isnt all there mentally. I also think a fully fit Martina and Lindsay have a better chance of beating the williams sisters, maybe its just becuase there rivalry lasted longer, and my opinion might change in 2 years when kim and justine have been playing longer. I just think martina and Lindsay are better players than kim and justine when they are all playing there best tennis.

shap_half
Jun 12th, 2003, 01:31 AM
Kim and Justine are nowhere near the end of their careers. Who's to say they've already played their best tennis? Justine just won a GS and Kim the WTA Champs. It has not been that long and now that they have placed a gap between the sisters and are gaining on Serena, I don't know if it's the right time to speculate about their "best" tennis.

Wasn't it only a year ago when people thought Serena would never win a clay title at a tier I or higher, or clay period. Now she has 2 (to Justine's 4 ahahaha) over the same period of time. So who's to say Justine can't prove everyone else wrong by winning a hardcourt Grand Slam? :rolleyes:

Infiniti2001
Jun 12th, 2003, 01:42 AM
And most of Venus' wins were when Hingis was at the end of her career! They had very few matches against eachother when both were in their prime. This could go on and on, but the point of my post was responding to Infiniti2001 who said that Hingis and Lindsay never actually beat a Williams sister, except for twice. By my count they've beaten them almost 30 times.

So I'm sure you'll forgive me to responding to a post in a non-offensive manner. :(


You better read this post over :eek: Meanwhile check out the head to head between Venus and martina.. Martina was the #1 player and the favourite to win in almost all the matches they every played , so PLEASE don't mention anything about the end of her career here.

Venus Williams (USA) vs. Martina Hingis (SUI)
1997-03-17 Key Biscayne Hardcourt R32 Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-4 6-2
1997-07-28 San Diego Hardcourt R16 Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-2 6-1
1997-08-25 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-0 6-4
1998-01-12 Sydney Hardcourt R16 Venus Williams (USA) 3-6 6-4 7-5
1998-03-02 Indian Wells Hardcourt SF Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-0 7-6(7)
1998-03-16 Key Biscayne Hardcourt SF Venus Williams (USA) 6-2 5-7 6-2
1998-05-04 Rome Clay F Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-3 2-6 6-3
1998-05-25 Roland Garros Clay QF Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-3 6-4
1999-05-03 Rome Clay SF Venus Williams (USA) 6-4 1-6 6-4
1999-08-02 San Diego Hardcourt F Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-4 6-0
1999-08-30 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-1 4-6 6-3
1999-09-27 Munich Indoor Carpet SF Venus Williams (USA) 6-2 6-7(6) 9-7
1999-10-11 Zurich Indoor Hardcourt F Venus Williams (USA) 6-3 6-4
1999-11-15 Chase Championships Indoor Carpet SF Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-4 7-6(2)
2000-06-26 Wimbledon Grass QF Venus Williams (USA) 6-3 4-6 6-4
2000-08-28 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Venus Williams (USA) 4-6 6-3 7-5
2001-01-15 Australian Open Hardcourt SF Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-1 6-1
2001-03-19 Miami Hardcourt SF Venus Williams (USA) 6-3 7-6(6)
2002-04-29 Hamburg Clay SF Venus Williams (USA) 7-5 6-3
Martina Hingis (SUI) leads 10:9

o0O0o
Jun 12th, 2003, 01:51 AM
LOL and you really should have seen Venus in some of those losses. US Open 99 & Chase Championships 99 = Venus playing the best tennis of her life up to that point against a fragile Hingis...and still losing.

tennisIlove09
Jun 12th, 2003, 02:07 AM
I said it before, I'll say it again...I never seen Hingis actually beat a Williams sister. They always beat themselves with the errors. No disrespect, just my belief.

cheeky
Jun 12th, 2003, 02:08 AM
And most of Venus' wins were when Hingis was at the end of her career! They had very few matches against eachother when both were in their prime. This could go on and on, but the point of my post was responding to Infiniti2001 who said that Hingis and Lindsay never actually beat a Williams sister, except for twice. By my count they've beaten them almost 30 times.

So I'm sure you'll forgive me to responding to a post in a non-offensive manner. :(
as a fellow williams fan i must say that i agree with you here,that neither player was a there prime when facing each other and sometimes you never really knew the outcome of the match which made for could matches(i.e US Open 2000),and it's appreciative that you did it in such a well written manner without having to resort into any kind of bashing,i applaud you!!!!

cheeky
Jun 12th, 2003, 02:14 AM
(give me rep points please!!!)

Rtael
Jun 12th, 2003, 02:54 AM
I said it before, I'll say it again...I never seen Hingis actually beat a Williams sister. They always beat themselves with the errors. No disrespect, just my belief.


:rolleyes: Yeah and I've never seen Venus beat Justine either, actually...it was always her nerves and her making errors, ya know?

Dawn Marie
Jun 12th, 2003, 03:40 AM
They are no where near Hingis and Lindsay in 1998-2000. Well maybe Henin is as good as Hingis was in 1998-2000. Hingis was slamless and Justine has a slam. I just don't think Hingis's prime was in 1998-2000. It was more like 1997.

tennisIlove09
Jun 12th, 2003, 04:03 AM
:rolleyes: Yeah and I've never seen Venus beat Justine either, actually...it was always her nerves and her making errors, ya know?

LOL! Amelia Island I'll give you... :D

stefanieforever
Jun 12th, 2003, 04:10 AM
Henin isn't a escapist,she will have a glary future!

F-R-E-A-K
Jun 12th, 2003, 04:53 AM
They arent near hingis and Lindsay!!

MAYBE you should compare Hingis/Davernport 98-00 to Williams/Williams 00/02 or even 01/03. I believe that would be a better combination!

franny
Jun 12th, 2003, 06:43 AM
people seem to have this perception that to "beat" a player, you must overpower them. It really is a shame because that shows how people view tennis these days. Tennis is as much of a strategy game than it is a power game. When martina was playing the williams, you were really watching a chess game. You dont need to blow someone off the court to beat them. Martina was amazing, she was moving the ball everywhere, flustering venus and serena, using different spins, creating different angles, it was brilliant, martina at her best was when she was able to do all that aggressively, you kno, before she turned passive near the end of her career. Martina did indeed "Beat" the williams, she did so by messing and playing with the williams minds and causing their level of confidence and play go down, dragging them down to their worst, and then capitalizing with her brilliant and consistent play. Thats called "beating" a player.

Dawn Marie
Jun 12th, 2003, 07:46 AM
Hingis only beat V@S because she has talent but also because V@S were inexperienced players where as Hingis was playing tennis all the time. We all know that tennis is about physics. No matter how great Hingis was if a power babe stopped making errors Hingis would always lose.


Sometimes Hingis BEAT Venus and Serena becasue they made alot of errors but anyone could see that when they cleaned up their game even 65% that Hingis was through.

Serena beat Hingis at the age of 17 years to win her first grandslam. She is still competing with the best. If Hingis was so superior and beat them with so much tennis knowledge what pray tell happend from 1999 on?

Robbie.
Jun 12th, 2003, 08:11 AM
Venus Williams and Martina at their respective peaks are very evenly matched. To say conclusively that one was better than the other is a fallacy. IMO Serena at her best is better than them both.

Dawn you say Martina never BEAT a Williams Sister who was playing better than 65%. This is a load of crap. You have been saying some very worthy things in this thread but you just blew your credibility with that comment. What US Open 1999 was not Venus at above 65% of her ability? In the first set of that match Hingis OUTHIT, OUTMANEUVERED AND OUTSMARTED Venus. The same can be said of the first set of 2001 Australian Open QF, when Hingis OUTHIT, OUTMANEUVERED AND OUTSMARTED Serena. They had no chance in either of those sets. If you believe otherwise go and watch the tapes.

Kim and justine don't even approach the level that Martina and Lindsay displayed between 98-2000. Dawn I'm not sure that you are thinking straight when you say Hingis didn't win a Slam in that period because she won 2 and was in another 4 finals which is more than the Belgians have achieved combined. On hardcourts Justine is no match for the Wlliams Sisters, and Clijsters is barely one. Between 1998-2000 Hingis and Davenport regularly beat the Williams Sisters on harcourts.

per4ever
Jun 12th, 2003, 08:13 AM
I think the Williams sisters improved A LOT since 98-00...tennis is on a much higher level. Justine and Kim are very close to that level.

If Kim/Justine would play Linds/Marti of 98-00..I'm sure Kim and Justine would win. The level of tennis is just higher now because of the williamses.

Robbie.
Jun 12th, 2003, 08:28 AM
I think the Williams sisters improved A LOT since 98-00...tennis is on a much higher level. Justine and Kim are very close to that level.

If Kim/Justine would play Linds/Marti of 98-00..I'm sure Kim and Justine would win. The level of tennis is just higher now because of the williamses.

There is no evidence that Venus has improved.

Serena has definitely she has gone to another level. But I don't buy the argument that women's tennis as a whole has gone to another level argument, it is complete and utter rhetoric. Conchita Martinez and Amanda Coetzer, great players though they are, play a game style seemingly more suited to the 1970's and they are both past their best and yet they are both a handful of points away from the top 15.

per4ever
Jun 12th, 2003, 08:30 AM
true..but look at all results in this years tournaments... everything is dominated by the top 4. Those players are definitly better then the rest.

great smash
Jun 12th, 2003, 08:34 AM
I personally believe that tennis was at its Zenith when Lindsay and Martina routinely challenged the Williams Sisters! Their battles during 1998-2000 laid the foundation for what Kime and Justine are enjoying now!

This period now IS NOT comparable to 98-00 series. When Venus took on Lindsay;or Serena took on Hingis, no one really knew who would win! When Kim, or Justine, faces the WS, you kinda have that feeling that a WS will come out victorious.

Since Kim and Justine are not considered SERIOUS threats to the WS, most don't feel that we have the same energy that existed then!

I believe that once Lindsay gets her focus back, she's the only person that can succesfully challenge the sisters! She's the only player on the tour that's been in 7 finals in the last year! 7 finals! That's pretty darn good!


Cire

What about Kim who's been in 7 finals already this year, actually winning three of them

Robbie.
Jun 12th, 2003, 08:35 AM
true..but look at all results in this years tournaments... everything is dominated by the top 4. Those players are definitly better then the rest.

The same was true of 1998-2000

Kim and Justine are very good don't get me wrong. But I think that Lindsay and Martina were far more effective on all surfaces than Justine and Kim. Martina was great on everything. Lindsay was weak on clay. Both excelled on hardcourts where most tennis is played. Justine and Kim have not shown this ability. Justine in particular has shown a distinct disliking for hardcourts. Time will tell, but I just don't think they are at the Martina/Lindsay level yet on surfaces other than clay.

BasicTennis
Jun 12th, 2003, 08:46 AM
the comparison is yet to be seen...hope they'll live up to the challenge and expectations.:angel:

rikvanlooy
Jun 12th, 2003, 08:56 AM
I personally believe that tennis was at its Zenith when Lindsay and Martina routinely challenged the Williams Sisters! Their battles during 1998-2000 laid the foundation for what Kime and Justine are enjoying now!

This period now IS NOT comparable to 98-00 series. When Venus took on Lindsay;or Serena took on Hingis, no one really knew who would win! When Kim, or Justine, faces the WS, you kinda have that feeling that a WS will come out victorious.

Since Kim and Justine are not considered SERIOUS threats to the WS, most don't feel that we have the same energy that existed then!

I believe that once Lindsay gets her focus back, she's the only person that can succesfully challenge the sisters! She's the only player on the tour that's been in 7 finals in the last year! 7 finals! That's pretty darn good!

Cire



What are you talking about ?

Serena won 7 tournaments last year.

In the last 12 months Kim and Justine both won 6 tournaments. Kim played 12 finals. This year she has played 7 finals.

rikvanlooy
Jun 12th, 2003, 09:23 AM
I think the Williams sisters improved A LOT since 98-00...tennis is on a much higher level. Justine and Kim are very close to that level.

If Kim/Justine would play Linds/Marti of 98-00..I'm sure Kim and Justine would win. The level of tennis is just higher now because of the williamses.

The Williams sisters have improved enormously. It's ridiculous to compare the results of the Sisters against Davenport and Hingis when they were starting their career. The h2h was massive in favour of the latter in the beginning. But at the end (just look at the h2h between Hingis and Venus) this was completely reversed.

Justine and Kim didn't have a chance of winning against Davenport in the beginning of their career. They had very close matches, but lost anyway. Nowadays Davenport doesn't seem to have the weapons anymore to beat the two Belgians. Davenport is maybe not as strong as she was, but I think it is because the two Belgians have improved a lot. We will see what the endresult (h2h) will be between the Belgians and Davenport, Seles, Capriati, Mauresmo, ...

This year they are 9-0 against these players. Since the US Open they are 4-4 against the Sisters.

The rivalry between the Sisters and between Belgians players have made that the latter improved enormously.

BTW : I'm not sure Justine is that weak on grass.

F-R-E-A-K
Jun 12th, 2003, 09:41 AM
I think the Williams sisters improved A LOT since 98-00...tennis is on a much higher level. Justine and Kim are very close to that level.

If Kim/Justine would play Linds/Marti of 98-00..I'm sure Kim and Justine would win. The level of tennis is just higher now because of the williamses.

Is that why justine has only BEATEN lindsay once?? and it was a struggle for her to do that?

Rtael
Jun 12th, 2003, 09:46 AM
Is that why justine has only BEATEN lindsay once?? and it was a struggle for her to do that?

That win was their ONLY meeting this year, and not on one of Henin's best surfaces (grass, clay) so....I don't see your point?

nante4ever
Jun 12th, 2003, 09:47 AM
cirelowe--While I agree to an extent, Henin-Hardenne beat Serena 3 of the last 4 times they've played. Yet we think the Williams will always come out the victor.

Obviously on a hardcourt/grass surface you'd expect a Williams. Now that's clay's over.

To me the biggest difference are the Williams themselves. They've cut down their errors (for the most part anyway), so they don't lose matches anymore. I don't mean to disrespect any Davenport or Hingis fans, but I don't think I've seen a match where Davenport or Hingis actually BEAT a sister. The closest thing that comes to my mind are the 2000 US Open QF (Davenport over Serena) and the 99 (?) BOW Final where Davenport beat Venus in three sets.

So are Henin and Clijsters as good? Who knows. It's hard to say because the Williams are that much better.


SO hingis didn't beat the williams (take note--both) at the OZ open in 2001? COme on

rikvanlooy
Jun 12th, 2003, 10:27 AM
Is that why justine has only BEATEN lindsay once?? and it was a struggle for her to do that?


Justine and Kim have lost a lot of matches that were very close (eg. the first encounter between Davenport and Justine, ... - I can name at least 15 matches which they should have won).

On this board this only counts as a losses. The loss of Kim against Serena at the Aus Open is seen as a big win for Serena, so why is a win after a close match a minor win for a Belgian player. :(

Maajken
Jun 12th, 2003, 11:27 AM
not even close. they'd have to meet in a bunch of consecutive finals first and then theyll maybe reach martina and lindsay's ankles.

Robbie.
Jun 12th, 2003, 11:37 AM
The Williams sisters have improved enormously.

Where is the evidence that Venus is playing better now than she was in 1999 and 2000?

BasicTennis
Jun 12th, 2003, 01:37 PM
Jennifer & Venus are stuck to their level of play, and their results reflect this.:rolleyes:

QUEENLINDSAY
Jun 12th, 2003, 02:21 PM
true..but look at all results in this years tournaments... everything is dominated by the top 4. Those players are definitly better then the rest.

Correction!!!! these 4 are better than the rest?????
I never seen Henin doing better than Lindsay except on clay. Besides she has only has one cheating won over Lindsay. Do get over excited with Henin winning the French Open, Clay season is over now.

I can accept that Kim,Serena and Venus were better than Lindsay at the moment but not Henin. Plssssssssss................

QUEENLINDSAY
Jun 12th, 2003, 02:25 PM
I JUST WISH LINDSAY would Draw HENIN in QUARTERS AT WIMBLEDON!!!!! Then we will talk!!!!!

Did Iva Majoli fans halucinate too when she won the French??????

great smash
Jun 12th, 2003, 02:33 PM
Correction!!!! these 4 are better than the rest?????
I never seen Henin doing better than Lindsay except on clay. Besides she has only has one cheating won over Lindsay. Do get over excited with Henin winning the French Open, Clay season is over now.

I can accept that Kim,Serena and Venus were better than Lindsay at the moment but not Henin. Plssssssssss................

I think points gathered reflect your performances.

Just to please you I left out the Clay court tournaments, then you'll see they've earned the same amount of points 1116, only Justine did in 5 tournaments whereas Lindsay played 6 to get to this number.

All I'm asking is give Justine the credit she deserves, she not 'just a clay court player'

QUEENLINDSAY
Jun 12th, 2003, 02:42 PM
I think points gathered reflect your performances.

Just to please you I left out the Clay court tournaments, then you'll see they've earned the same amount of points 1116, only Justine did in 5 tournaments whereas Lindsay played 6 to get to this number.

All I'm asking is give Justine the credit she deserves, she not 'just a clay court player'

Yeah right!!!! henin gets most of those points from AO where she cheated just to have her first win.

You dont need to pls me, I know where Lindsay belongs and I know where Justine is and everybody knows who got the hype.

great smash
Jun 12th, 2003, 02:47 PM
That must be the difference between me and you. I may have seen some players not behave the way they should (although I don't consider that match to be one of them), still I'm not saying players win matches by cheating.

I guess we better close the discussion here, both players will have to probe themselves further along this season. Maybe Lindsay will prove to have better results, I just give Justine the benifit of the doubt believing she could do equally well.

shap_half
Jun 12th, 2003, 02:52 PM
Correction!!!! these 4 are better than the rest?????
I never seen Henin doing better than Lindsay except on clay. Besides she has only has one cheating won over Lindsay. Do get over excited with Henin winning the French Open, Clay season is over now.

I can accept that Kim,Serena and Venus were better than Lindsay at the moment but not Henin. Plssssssssss................

gyes, let's not get over excited that justine won clay since it is the only surface lindsay will never, ever win! :rolleyes:

shap_half
Jun 12th, 2003, 02:54 PM
Yeah right!!!! henin gets most of those points from AO where she cheated just to have her first win.

You dont need to pls me, I know where Lindsay belongs and I know where Justine is and everybody knows who got the hype.

I don't understand how Lindsay can get a cramp yet people get over it; but you seem to not get over Justine getting a cramp. Let me tell you, cramps are not easy to fake. It might be really easy for you since you're the only one convinced Justine was faking it.

QUEENLINDSAY
Jun 12th, 2003, 03:08 PM
I don't understand how Lindsay can get a cramp yet people get over it; but you seem to not get over Justine getting a cramp. Let me tell you, cramps are not easy to fake. It might be really easy for you since you're the only one convinced Justine was faking it.

How many times does Justin needs to display her EVIL sides for u to see it????? DESPERATE WIN!!!! we can call it!!!!

Back to the main topic, I just dont see any proof at all the Justin is better now than Lindsay other than Clay.

DA FOREHAND
Jun 12th, 2003, 03:11 PM
Where is the evidence that Venus is playing better now than she was in 1999 and 2000?


How about the Wimbledon and Us Open Champion! DUH! Not to mention her 30+winning match streak.

"1999-10-11 Zurich Indoor Hardcourt F Venus Williams (USA) 6-3 6-4 "

This match was the turning point in thier rivalry. It was the first match that i'd seen where Venus didn't simply overpower Martina, but actually out rallied her. Beautiful match.

QUEENLINDSAY
Jun 12th, 2003, 03:21 PM
That must be the difference between me and you. I may have seen some players not behave the way they should (although I don't consider that match to be one of them), still I'm not saying players win matches by cheating.

I guess we better close the discussion here, both players will have to probe themselves further along this season. Maybe Lindsay will prove to have better results, I just give Justine the benifit of the doubt believing she could do equally well.


Exactly my point!!! I'm just replying to an idiot post saying that Henin belongs to the BIG 4 better than the rest!!!!!!
I just dont see Henin there coz, she is not better on any surface than Lindsay nor Capriati nor a Healty Seles nor Hantuchova on hardcourts.

If she said on clay!!!! Handsdown I will agree!!!

DA FOREHAND
Jun 12th, 2003, 03:27 PM
To answer the question of the thread headline.

No they aren't .

Nan Cu
Jun 12th, 2003, 03:33 PM
There is no evidence that Venus has improved [since 98-00].

1. ROTFLMAO.

2. Sad and true.

DA FOREHAND
Jun 12th, 2003, 03:38 PM
Funny how people forget the two Slams and the 34 (?) match win streak. Besides her sister how many other players reached four consecutive slam finals in the time period since then?

Nan Cu
Jun 12th, 2003, 03:53 PM
And I'm sure this was discussed on this board, but as for Justine's RG win...Had it not been for the typically french crowd she won't even have made the final.

Hazy
Jun 12th, 2003, 04:00 PM
And I'm sure this was discussed on this board, but as for Justine's RG win...Had it not been for the typically french crowd she won't even have made the final.

Yes, this was discussed on this board, but maybe not exhaustive enough... Only something like 62563 threads (excluding leslie's) and we still aren't sure if Serena lost because of

- the crowd

- the hand

- because she played 9000 notches below her normal level

- she beat herself

- elvis stole her raquet

Maybe you can give your groundbreaking insights on this?

shap_half
Jun 12th, 2003, 04:14 PM
Yes, this was discussed on this board, but maybe not exhaustive enough... Only something like 62563 threads (excluding leslie's) and we still aren't sure if Serena lost because of

- the crowd

- the hand

- because she played 9000 notches below her normal level

- she beat herself

- elvis stole her raquet

Maybe you can give your groundbreaking insights on this?

ALLEZ! lol

rikvanlooy
Jun 12th, 2003, 04:15 PM
I JUST WISH LINDSAY would Draw HENIN in QUARTERS AT WIMBLEDON!!!!! Then we will talk!!!!!

Did Iva Majoli fans halucinate too when she won the French??????

Well, let's see and wait.

Justine has had her best slam results on grass (final and semifinal the last two years - better than Davenport). The first time she beat Kim was on grass, when she won in the final at Rosmalen.

Justine is made for grass tennis. She has a good service and she has an awesome backhand which keeps the ball very low. She is good at the net.

She is now a lot better.

I just hope Justine plays against Serena in the semifinal to prove everybody that her wins are no flukes.

moby
Jun 12th, 2003, 04:16 PM
they should change the Wimbledon movie title to "The Hand"

would make for a great story

SJW
Jun 12th, 2003, 04:34 PM
Queen Linzi i want Justine to draw Linzi too :angel:

Glenn
Jun 12th, 2003, 04:38 PM
Queen Linzi i want Justine to draw Linzi too :angel:
Ohhh yea, me too! :drool:

Nan Cu
Jun 12th, 2003, 04:49 PM
I just hope Justine plays against Serena in the semifinal to prove everybody that her wins are no flukes.

Be careful what you wish for. Serena will detonate and annihilate Justine. There was a return hit in their RG semi match. Serena will hit a thousand of those. Like a Sampras serving to Andre, Justine would get her racket on neither serve nor return

CHeaters never prosper. I predict Justine will be a one-slam-wonder.

SJW
Jun 12th, 2003, 04:55 PM
dont forget grass has short rallies...the thing that helped Justine was the longer the rallies went on, the more likely Serena was to hit an error

Nan Cu is right....becareful what u wish for

TonyP
Jun 12th, 2003, 04:57 PM
A couple of points. In '98 thru 2000, it wasn't Lindsay and Martina challenging the Williams sisters, it was the Williams sisters challenging them. Martina and Lindsay were numbers one and two.

Secondly, Venus is not number two right now in much of anyone's mind. The rankings reflect who is doing better these days and both Kim and Justine have surpassed Venus. I think both Kim and Justine are capable of making strong Wimdledon showings. But neither has reached number one yet.

ONe of the most memorable aspects of 2000 was the fact that Martina and Lindsay, ranked one and two, played in five major finals during the year, Lindsay winning three of them, AO, IW and Philadelphia, and Hingis two, Miami and Zurich. All but Phily were big, important tournaments.

They played some really great matches, the best being Zurich in my mind, a three set barn burner that was settled 7-5 in the third.

Justine and Kim are not quite there yet and of course, Kim has yet to win a slam, so she doesn't replace Lindsay in anyone's mind. (And I am a Kim fan.) Justine also has quite a way to go before being considered Martina's equal. She will have to win a few more slams and get to number one and hold it for some time to do that.

SJW
Jun 12th, 2003, 05:14 PM
ok if Venus and Justine were to face off on ReboundAce, Clay, Grass, HC, and carpet, i know who i would pick to win the best of series :D

Nan Cu
Jun 12th, 2003, 05:19 PM
ONe of the most memorable aspects of 2000 was the fact that Martina and Lindsay, ranked one and two, played in five major finals during the year, Lindsay winning three of them, AO, IW and Philadelphia, and Hingis two, Miami and Zurich. All but Phily were big, important tournaments.

35-match win streak anyone? I suppose there were memorable if you''re a Hingis/Davenport die hard.


They played some really great matches, the best being Zurich in my mind, a three set barn burner that was settled 7-5 in the third.

No, they didn't.
[br]
AO - Hingis crushed
[br]
IW - Lindsay played like crap 'til 2-4 in the second, Hingis didn't won another game.
[br]
Lipton - Lindsay was sick and injured, Hingis finally gets a win in two ugly sets.
[br]
Zurich - Lindsay served for the match so many times only to lose.
[br]
Advanta - Lindsay served for the first set so many times, played like crap, only to win in a tiebreak. Second set same thing, winning it 6-4, after being up 5-1. Lindsay's forehand DTL was totally off.

Great matches indeed. Not.

QUEENLINDSAY
Jun 12th, 2003, 05:50 PM
Well, let's see and wait.

Justine has had her best slam results on grass (final and semifinal the last two years - better than Davenport). The first time she beat Kim was on grass, when she won in the final at Rosmalen.

Justine is made for grass tennis. She has a good service and she has an awesome backhand which keeps the ball very low. She is good at the net.

She is now a lot better.

I just hope Justine plays against Serena in the semifinal to prove everybody that her wins are no flukes.


Better than Davenport?????? ARE YOU CRAZY????

Lindsay won it in 1999 over Steffi.
She lost in finals to Venus at 2000
She lost in Semis to Venus at 2001 the eventual champion
Did'nt play in 2002.
Lindsay also won Eastbourne already and Juju the faker has'nt.

Can you check your mind, How come Justin had better results on grass.

BE CAREFULL TO WISH FOR A LINDSAY OR A WILLIAMS to be in your early draw.

DA FOREHAND
Jun 12th, 2003, 07:13 PM
A Resounding No!

barmaid
Jun 12th, 2003, 08:44 PM
Lindsay and Martina had a better game in the 1998-2000 period...they accomplished much more...were more consistent and had more experience! :hearts: Last year Serena was in "a league of her own" while Venus's game slipped a bit. Kim should have won AO but didn't...+ to Serena...she had the determination to come back! :) Kudos to Justine for her RG win.....but its only her first....long way to go Juju. :D ...we'll see what you're made of at Wimbledon...same goes for Kim...."nerves" still her problem...she's got the "tools" but needs the mental toughness! But I give the nod to Martina and Lindsay!! :hearts: :kiss:


barmaid :wavey:

tennisIlove09
Jun 12th, 2003, 09:47 PM
SO hingis didn't beat the williams (take note--both) at the OZ open in 2001? COme on

If you think Hingis beat Venus at the 01 OZ, then you didn't see the match. In 14 games Venus had about 50 errors.

Against Serena it was closer, but I still say Serena's errors cost her the match.

Hendouble
Jun 12th, 2003, 09:59 PM
Hmm... having read through this thread, I can only ask the question: do any of you get out much? Honestly, I think I'd go insane if I had the same small group of players constantly circulating in my thoughts, able to reel off statistics and debate opinions over the same endlessly, tediously, insufferably recurring issues. Still, that's women's tennis for you...

Mister B
Jun 13th, 2003, 12:32 AM
some people here say Venus beat herself with doing errors.. but I think a good player is able to NOT doing a lot of errors! I also think Martina and Lindsay were better than Justine and Kim now.. I saw Kim last week, and I'm sure Lindsay and Martina at their best(well maybe not Lindsay because of the surface) would have beaten her!! Justine was great though.. and the ones who say Venus improved a lot since 2000, I don't know why you say that.. in 2000 and 2001 she won 2 GS each year, and I saw her matches against Martina in WB 2000 and US 2000 and I can tell you she played A LOT better than in Roland Garros last week, where I saw all her matches and it wasn't really impressive!

Kim wasn't able to beat Serena in AO, but Hingis was able to in 2001, when she was down 3-5 in the third.. and her match against Davenport in Swisscom Challenge 2000 was one of the greatest matches I've ever seen! same thing in Sydney 2001 in the finals against Lindsay..

Robbie.
Jun 13th, 2003, 02:43 AM
How about the Wimbledon and Us Open Champion! DUH! Not to mention her 30+winning match streak.

"1999-10-11 Zurich Indoor Hardcourt F Venus Williams (USA) 6-3 6-4 "

This match was the turning point in thier rivalry. It was the first match that i'd seen where Venus didn't simply overpower Martina, but actually out rallied her. Beautiful match.

Yeah so how has she improved since 1999-2000?

Nan Cu
Jun 13th, 2003, 03:38 AM
I guess we better close the discussion here, both players will have to probe themselves further along this season.

Ouch.

Kim should have won AO but didn't...

No guarantee Kim would've beaten Venus. Beating Serena is one thing, destroying opponents the way she does is another.