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View Full Version : Player has to win - no excuses


DannerCal
Jun 11th, 2003, 05:20 PM
Not to be redundant, but in my opinion:

1. The player has to win the match.

2. Crowds and conditions are going to be different in every tourny. Fans scream at the Italian Open, Wimbledon is much more refined and the crowd is more respectful.

Bottom line:

3. The player needs to be focused enough to block out all distractions - and do the job.


To say that a crowd won a match is not fair to either player.
Hypothetically there are lots of things that should or should not happen, but they do. We don't live in a perfect world. Sometimes changes can be made by things that happen, and that makes it better for the tour.

A recommended change:

Personally, I think using shot spot and other electronic devices should be allowed by the chair ump. Bad calls can change a match. Things that are not seen, can be reviewed by quick video. Other sports do it, so why not tennis? Maybe a few tourny events should experiment with adding to make it more fair to the players.

This may or may not happen, so for now we have to rely on humans to make these judgments. In the end - the player with the best game and best focus that day will come out the winner.. We can speculate all we want about what could have happened if only........but at the end of the day we can't change what happened.

Tough losses make better players. Other players breaking through and winning slams is also good for the tour.

Rollo
Jun 11th, 2003, 06:52 PM
Hope you enjoy the board DannerCal:)

I'm 100% with you on shot spot.

One good reason for playing Davis/Fed Cup is it prepares you for hostile
crowds.

SerenaSlam
Jun 11th, 2003, 07:05 PM
good post but when you through Venus and Serena's name in the mix things get different.

1. yes the player has to win the match
2. (here is the big ass change) the crowd is never different no matter where venus or serena go and play.

3. this is a sport, and personally why should every crowd you go play tennis at be against you? I know you should have to fight the distractions, but when is there a let up? Why have to struggle from the beginning of your career to then end? why these two players that happen to be black get all crowd hatred, and no-one else?

Shot spot, personally it needs to be put up on big screen for the crowd. The chair ump needs it, and so does the crowd. It would settle everything. Like i said before. If justine were to watch that Match against Serena with Espn's taping, as sad and sorry she tried to feel, she would really be ashamed of herself if she is the sweetheart everyone is making her out to be.

Will we get this feature every? Well in the other sports, they had to have a lot of controversial happenings and what not to happen over and over again before they realized it would settle a lot of bull. Mary C reccomends it all the damn time. Not to many others do, and I think its b/c it shows the truth and the right results.

Shot spot is the best, it has nothing on Mac Cam or anything else. ESPN has the good technology. It shows where to ball landed, now "how" it landed like CBS and NBC do.

*JR*
Jun 11th, 2003, 07:11 PM
SS, winning is the best "revenge" re. hostile crowds. The W/S usually win (inc. Venus against everyone else when healthy like last year). It'll take a generation to get the country club mentality out of tennis crowds and I doubt it affects them very much. In fact, breaking down that "barrier" will be just one more achievement.

shap_half
Jun 11th, 2003, 07:27 PM
The crowd doesn't like you then what can you do? It's not the crowd's fault if their feeling doesn't coincide with every player.

And perhaps, the crowds may be on to something. If the crowd is booing Serena and Venus (more Serena than Venus, really) then perhaps Serena needs to do something to prevent it from happening again, i.e. get a better personality.

TonyP
Jun 11th, 2003, 07:40 PM
While changes in line calling might be nice, they aren't in the works anytime soon. Notice, not every tournament has radar guns to clock service speeds. That's because they cost money. How much would it cost to install electronic line calling devices on every tennis court at a grand slam event?

Lots!

How much would it cost to install Diamond Vision or Gumbotron screens at ever court? A fortune.

A lot of those line callers you see out there are volunteers, working for free. If you think the tournament organizers are going to give up free labor in favor of installing and maintaining expensive electronic gear, you don't understand the capitalist system.

Besides, I am sure many of them think the big arguments with the chair umpires actually enhance the game by making it more exciting. Many people think the Justine/Serena match was exciting for just that reason. That's the match people are talking about, not the final.

Remember, there is no such thing as bad publicity.

There was a match once where McEnroe was having a lot of trouble with the service line machine. It kept beeping and going off even before he served. Finally, he walked up to where the box was set up and he said.

"I know you know it's me."

CapFan#1
Jun 11th, 2003, 08:25 PM
DarrenCal is right on the money! And this BS that it is different for V&S is just that -- BS. !. They are not booed at every tourney--please grow up and stop exaggerating. 2. Dont even dare say it is about skin color and racism because that is BS also. Chanda Rubin isnt met with boos when she plays tourneys... Why??, because she has a full mature personality, unlike big spoiled brat baby Serena.

Helen Lawson
Jun 11th, 2003, 08:35 PM
It is the same on Broadway. You either hit all your notes, your lines, and your marks, or you don't. No excuses. You cannot blame untalented co-workers, directors, whatever, it is YOU and YOU ONLY out there on that stage, singing, dancing, giving the audience what they want, dodging that Calder mobile, trying to master the lip synch, wow, exhiliterating, but it is all on YOU!

At least on film (I have made several), you can redo a scene as many times as you like until it is right, but that is hard also. Daniel Mann directed me once in a musical, and I about died. He was a slavedriver! A beast! I had to do about 12 takes once on a 3 second scene. Ghastly! 18-20 hour days, the man was evil! And I did not even get an Oscar for it either. I would do a brilliant scene with singing and everything and he would demand we do it all over again, that he wanted it done differently. He was no choreographer, trust me, those scenes were fine. There are some advantages to Broadway!

DA FOREHAND
Jun 11th, 2003, 08:37 PM
". Many people think the Justine/Serena match was exciting for just that reason. That's the match people are talking about, not the final."

LOL that's because anyone who watched the final is still drowsy.

"Chanda Rubin isnt met with boos when she plays tourneys... Why??, because she has a full mature personality, unlike big spoiled brat baby Serena."

That's because Chanda isn't a threat to the establishment.

I don't agree that V&S are booed everywhere they go, but the crowds are generally rooting against them even in amer. Even when they were the underdogs. Maybe it's because they are big strong and athletic, and they feel for thier opponents. Or maybe just maybe thier tans are a tad to dark.

Nefateri
Jun 11th, 2003, 08:38 PM
Believe me the booing is called as blunlty as is "white jealousy "and I have seen plenty of this in my professional career. Don't tell me Agassi is never bood blah blah blah ! and we like Chanda blah blah.
He has never won 4 grand slams in a row and doesn't have a brother with four grandslams as well. He doesn't even dominate a white sport.
I don't want to debate anybody. Keep your rebutal to yourself.
We all know why the Williams are not appreciated and Capriati is the Darling of many despite of all what we know. Do you know why?

By the way the french are very good at beating up 21 year girls and not much else.

Helen Lawson
Jun 11th, 2003, 08:44 PM
I have seen them play loads, they are always the crowd favorite. The only more popular player I have ever encountered with a crowd was Monica Seles.

If they are really hated, why all the endorsement money? They get bigger endorsements than Lin-C and Jennifer, even Martina and Anna with the Reebok and I guess Serena stuck with Puma, or Nike, whichever one pays her heaps now.

spencercarlos
Jun 11th, 2003, 09:03 PM
The crowd doesn't like you then what can you do? It's not the crowd's fault if their feeling doesn't coincide with every player.

And perhaps, the crowds may be on to something. If the crowd is booing Serena and Venus (more Serena than Venus, really) then perhaps Serena needs to do something to prevent it from happening again, i.e. get a better personality.
pfff dont be ridiculous. Just imagine yourself playing a tournament where everybody is booing you. Now imagine yourself in a grand slam, playing an important match for your career, a semifinal of a grand slam and be threated like that. And also have to deal against a player who is playing well (like Henin was at RG)...
You think a "get a better presonallity" will change a thing.. You want them to act like Robots? Venus and Serena now they should not hear, they should not speak, they can not argue calls etc... They are humans don`t forget that.

DannerCal
Jun 11th, 2003, 09:38 PM
interesting responses.

Regarding the race comments: I really think that skin color was not an issue at the French. The fans did not react that way in other matches.

The fans were not booing Serena until she was questioning calls.
Of course we got to see on TV that she was right on all of them, but the audience at the French does not get to see shot spot.

Serena did the right thing to question the calls.

The chair ump could have asked the crowd to be quiet, but he opted not to. not sure what difference it would have made a difference.
Serena just reacted like a human - she was upset. If it was not such a big event, she may have been able to shake it off.

Do not worry - she will grow from this experience.

Rollo
Jun 11th, 2003, 10:28 PM
Serena had the right to question calls BUT

--She's made a habit of it a la Sanchez-Vicario, and the French used to get on ASV just as much. She was booed just as bad as Serena more than once at RG.

--And moreover, Serena makes the calls rather than just ask the chair to check it afterwards. It's annoying.

shap_half
Jun 12th, 2003, 12:20 AM
pfff dont be ridiculous. Just imagine yourself playing a tournament where everybody is booing you. Now imagine yourself in a grand slam, playing an important match for your career, a semifinal of a grand slam and be threated like that. And also have to deal against a player who is playing well (like Henin was at RG)...
You think a "get a better presonallity" will change a thing.. You want them to act like Robots? Venus and Serena now they should not hear, they should not speak, they can not argue calls etc... They are humans don`t forget that.

That's not even what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that if they are continuously getting booed, then there must a problem. I don't really think that if they are getting booed at different places and at different circumstances that there is no problem with them. Yeah, if this only happens in France, then fine. I'll concede that the French are just rude and don't like Serena. But if happens just about anywhere, especially in their own country, then there must truly be a problem with the way they are coming off to the public.

I think has nothing to do with racism. I mean Surya Bonaly is from France and she's black and the French loves her! Black gymnasts are also very well respected at Olympic level competition. Get over it! People are not racist! This is no longer a valid excuse for anything!

spencercarlos
Jun 12th, 2003, 12:52 AM
That's not even what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that if they are continuously getting booed, then there must a problem. I don't really think that if they are getting booed at different places and at different circumstances that there is no problem with them. Yeah, if this only happens in France, then fine. I'll concede that the French are just rude and don't like Serena. But if happens just about anywhere, especially in their own country, then there must truly be a problem with the way they are coming off to the public.

I think has nothing to do with racism. I mean Surya Bonaly is from France and she's black and the French loves her! Black gymnasts are also very well respected at Olympic level competition. Get over it! People are not racist! This is no longer a valid excuse for anything!
Serena did nothing wrong, sportsmans like conduct i mean, in that match versus Henin.

I watched the tape of Henin-Serena at 4-2 30-0 she clearly had her hands up and did it after Serena was about to hit the serve.

Im not talking about racism, neither about them been booed at all events because i donīt know if thatīs true.

You said "If the crowd is booing Serena and Venus (more Serena than Venus, really) then perhaps Serena needs to do something to prevent it from happening again, i.e. get a better personality"

So tell me what she did wrong that day versus Henin to get booed.... so she shoudl ger a better personality, i just donīt get your point.. i hope you can clear my doubts

and BTW Arantxa was booed mostly because of the moonballs, i can relate it because i saw her matches and being booed many times.

*JR*
Jun 12th, 2003, 01:07 AM
And perhaps, the crowds may be on to something. If the crowd is booing Serena and Venus (more Serena than Venus, really) then perhaps Serena needs to do something to prevent it from happening again, i.e. get a better personality.
Uh, would that apply to your gurl Marti? Love her or not, you can't deny that in the late 90's, Sista Smirk was arrogant and proud of it. Go check some of her MANY quotes. I mean she made Pam Shriver AND Helen Lawson seem modest by comparison! :p (Of course Miss Hingis had a "little" problem with the French fans, too). ;)

shap_half
Jun 12th, 2003, 01:26 AM
Uh, would that apply to your gurl Marti? Love her or not, you can't deny that in the late 90's, Sista Smirk was arrogant and proud of it. Go check some of her MANY quotes. I mean she made Pam Shriver AND Helen Lawson seem modest by comparison! :p (Of course Miss Hingis had a "little" problem with the French fans, too). ;)

See Martina has NO problem owning up to that arrogance, which I appreciate. If she's a bitch and she's willing to say it and acknowledge it, then more power to the girl. Serena (and her fans) will attach the moon to the Atlantic Ocean before she'll (and her fans) own up to her own arrogance.

Serena did nothing wrong, sportsmans like conduct i mean, in that match versus Henin.

I watched the tape of Henin-Serena at 4-2 30-0 she clearly had her hands up and did it after Serena was about to hit the serve.

Im not talking about racism, neither about them been booed at all events because i donīt know if thatīs true.

You said "If the crowd is booing Serena and Venus (more Serena than Venus, really) then perhaps Serena needs to do something to prevent it from happening again, i.e. get a better personality"

So tell me what she did wrong that day versus Henin to get booed.... so she shoudl ger a better personality, i just donīt get your point.. i hope you can clear my doubts

and BTW Arantxa was booed mostly because of the moonballs, i can relate it because i saw her matches and being booed many times.

It' not about what happened that day. Most of the fans there were Belgians. And recently when a Belgian press asked Serena about her loss to Justine at Charleston prior to RG, she made it clear that she's a bitter and arrogant little bitch. Who appreciates that? And then she has no qualms denying her own arrogance and conceit. Please, I don't give a flying fuck really about her personality outside of the tennis courts, I allow her to make her statement with her tennis. But this might not be the case with the crowd during that specific match.

If the crowd don't like you then too fucking bad! She's not the only person to have ever gotten booed. She should know that all the comments she make kinda tick people off.

*JR*
Jun 12th, 2003, 02:00 AM
Actually, Sharpy, I totally agree that the crowds can be as partisan as they want and don't need to justify who they're rooting for or why. They do pay a very large % of the prize pools the W/S have won a whole lot of $$$ from, entitling them to be "right or wrong", as long as they're civil. (Obviously, unruly fans can be ejected, but that's different). In another thread I even quoted Larry Bird's dismissive comment about the effect of hostile basketball crowds. There are many issues the game needs to address and I still say the linespersons directly behind both players had a far better "simultaneous view" of them on "the serve" than the ump and should have been consulted. And SerenaSlam, if your gurl needed crowd support, you wouldn't have that screen name. ;) One effect I predict is that Serena will be seen as a person, not a tennis "terminator" and Juju as a person no longer "defined" by her difficult childhood.

shap_half
Jun 12th, 2003, 03:13 AM
Speaking of crowds,

In the 1996 Atlanta Games it was the Women's Team Finals in the sport of gymnastics. I don't know if everyone is familiar with the infamous Kerri Strug vaulting situation. If not, I'll quickly talk about it. In the team portion of gymnastics in 1996, in order for a team to win they must average the total of the preliminaries and the actual team finals both held on different nights. In the preliminaries in 1996, the Russians were leading the American women by a slight margin. And during the team finals, the American women had gained ground and surpassed the Russians through the first three rotations (there are 4 rotations in gymnastics). The final rotation, the Russians are performing on the floor exercise where there is music played for the women to dance to; the Americans were on the vault. Kerri Strug was the final vaulter for the American women. And up until she vaulted the Americans were somewhat losing their lead. She botched her first vault and tried for the second where all the drama started when she sprained her ankle right after her landing. To that point the Americans in the stadium were sooo loud. They were screaming and cheering out of excitement. And what happened to the Russians? They lost. The crowd was cheering so loudly that they could barely hear the music being played for their routines. The Russians never expressed their feelings about losing due to the crowd. They lost and sucked it up!

A crowd is a crowd. And I know there is a difference between cheering and booing, but I don't understand how Serena gets the benefit of the doubt. She knows better than to expect the perfect crowd. She knows better! And I don't think she was making a big deal out of crowd as much as everyone else is.