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View Full Version : Could a white European be as athletic as Serena and Venus?


Steffica Greles
Jun 3rd, 2003, 12:55 AM
This isn't meant to be controverisial. IF people are immature, then I'm sorry for them.

We all know that Venus and Serena are athletes that are incomparable to anything that has ever graced the courts before.

True, Navratilova, Novotna and Mandlikova were better across the net, and Graf had better footwork, but these women were simply not as athletic AND powerful as either of the Williams'.

I say it now, I can't imagine a player of white European descent ever being born to grow to the size that they are.

Which begs the question, IF Venus and Serena do inspire more black youngsters, will tennis become like athletics, dominated by black athletes?

kiwifan
Jun 3rd, 2003, 01:00 AM
You honestly don't think that Steffi wasn't on the same level athletically?

White's who use black athleticism as an excuse are just cowards.

In one of the first posts I ever made here I said, you could take the University of Miami college football team at stick rackets in their hands and they won't win a set in the pros or a match in a World Cup.

They are bigger and faster than whoever would be on the court or field against them, so why wouldn't they win everything?

Pureracket
Jun 3rd, 2003, 01:01 AM
You've gotta be kidding me!!!!! Venus and Serena were not BORN athletes. Do you think that maybe training on the court and off the court could have anything to do with why you consider them so athletic?

Players of white European descent and Purple N. American descent can be as athletic as they wanna be.

treufreund
Jun 3rd, 2003, 01:01 AM
i actually think they can come very close. and athleticism is not the only factor in tennis anyways. if you are 90% as athletic but better in other areas you can still win.

i think Pete Sampras or Navratilova are just as athletic and certainly more and more whites have been winning in all sorts of track and field. It is actually a phenomenon of the last five years that has gone somewhat unnoticed. All sports are diversifying IMO. Look at golf and tennis being more open to African Americans whereas NBA basketball now has Steve Nash, Dirk Nowitski, Jason Kidd, Stojakovic and Yao Ming as some of its biggest stars

rhz
Jun 3rd, 2003, 01:15 AM
mauresmo?

Havok
Jun 3rd, 2003, 01:50 AM
ir could very well be. who knows

Midnite Surfer
Jun 3rd, 2003, 01:55 AM
Of course they could if they worked as hard as Venus and Serena off court.

PhoenixStorm
Jun 3rd, 2003, 02:04 AM
This isn't meant to be controverisial. IF people are immature, then I'm sorry for them.

We all know that Venus and Serena are athletes that are incomparable to anything that has ever graced the courts before.

True, Navratilova, Novotna and Mandlikova were better across the net, and Graf had better footwork, but these women were simply not as athletic AND powerful as either of the Williams'.

I say it now, I can't imagine a player of white European descent ever being born to grow to the size that they are.

Which begs the question, IF Venus and Serena do inspire more black youngsters, will tennis become like athletics, dominated by black athletes?

sounds like more racist clap trap to me. Oh those black people are so athletic! They're just born that way! Nevermind all the years of training that goes into it. Athletes are not born they are made otherwise everyone and their mother would be winning grandslams.

F-R-E-A-K
Jun 3rd, 2003, 02:16 AM
Zvonareva i believe proved something with her match against venus the other day.. she was fit enough to chase all those balls down that venus struck very hard.... Anything is possible with Athletics!

Midnite Surfer
Jun 3rd, 2003, 02:19 AM
By the way has anyone seen Venus and Serena's othr sisters? It stands to reason that they would be as athletic as Venus and Serena if were a genetic thing. They are average women.

Greenout
Jun 3rd, 2003, 02:27 AM
There are some body types that make it
easier for certain sports for example
short legs, a huge upper body, and strong
shoulders make it easier to be a good surfer
than a basket ball player. A nimble smaller frame
makes it easier to be a rock climber. Good lungs,
strong long legs , body type is better for sprinting
in cycling as oppose to the slimmer body type for
mountain riding up to the alps. In tennis longer
arms is an advantage than a shorter wing span.
If your shorter than a ability to sprint fast is
an asset. You can train to sprint quicker; but
different muscle twitch factors individual to each
and person makes some faster than others.

Venus and Serena are natural athlete's;but it doesn't
mean that all blacks are as natural of an athlete as
they are. What's the population of the US? With such
a huge population there's bound to be some individuals
superior in ability to others.

The other thing to note that for example where I live
now Singapore. Singapore is a city nation of about
4 million people. There's no real sports culture here.
Kids take 8-12 classes. Yes- 8- 12! There's no time for
sports. The key to success here is school grades. The
Singapore national sports teams feature alot of part time
athlete's such as police officers etc.. Nobody here is
particulary athletic because nobody encourages them
no family member, no friend, no school teacher. Sports
are for people who can't cut it in school.

The US, Russia etc.. breeds alot of athletes because it's
encouraged, and respected as a career. Back to the
original question..white European athletes? Off course!

TeeRexx
Jun 3rd, 2003, 02:31 AM
Thread answer:
Yes, but the athlete will not come from the British Isles, Spain, Italy or France.
Look for the athlete coming from Germany, Russia, Czechoslavokia, former Soviet satelites and maybe Poland.
Scandanavian countries are a possibility, but even if they are female and not great, they will probably be quite cute. :eek: LOL

o0O0o
Jun 3rd, 2003, 03:37 AM
Kim Clijsters has the physical build of Serena. She runs as fast, has better footwork, is more flexible, and equally as powerful.

IMO she is the best athlete on the tour. I think the Williams sisters muscles are so noticable that people take them to be stronger and more athletic than they are. Although I think the top 3 players in the world according to the rankings are also the top 3 athletes in the world.

Smygelfh_III
Jun 3rd, 2003, 07:10 AM
Is it just me who don't think Venus looks very athletic compared to most other top players? Of course, "athletic" could be anything that is related to the physical state of the players, so anyone can be the most athletic if you just define it to suit you...

"natural born athlete" is a silly concept if you ask me. As is talent. Everyone's saying Hingis was so talented. Who the hell wouldn't be if you started practising at 2 and focused on "technical" tennis rather than "powerful" tennis? Same with athletism... if you start very early and focus hard on muscles and speed you will undoubtly be very strong and quick when you're 15... but you still weren't naturally born that way, you were forced by your parents to become athletic.

Race has nothing to do with it.

Messenger
Jun 3rd, 2003, 09:12 AM
Some races do "lean" themselves to certain sports though. It's probably a combination of culture or genetics.

Not sure whether this applies to tennis.

Experimentee
Jun 3rd, 2003, 09:33 AM
Yes i think white europeans are definitely as athletic as blacks. There was a thread about this on atpworld, but i think that assumption is bullshit. If blacks were so naturally advanced then there would be more than 4 black women in the top 50.

To answer the question about white europeans, look at the Russian girls. Bovina and Petrova, etc are built like tanks. They have worked hard and are powerful and athletic, as was Martina Nav in her time. And also, power and athleticism isnt the only thing you need to succeed in tennis.

irma
Jun 3rd, 2003, 09:33 AM
lindsay is as powerfull as venus or serena
mary p is, even mirjana l

they are all blond and white

and I think nav was very athletic too when she became dedicated to it.
steffi even more since she hardly worked for it (in the gym I mean not on the on the tenniscourt)

so the answer is yes!

*JR*
Jun 3rd, 2003, 09:51 AM
It can be analyzed somewhat scientifically. First, let's toss that "bigger" nonsense as Linzi and Lena are larger than either, and the better athlete of the W/S (Serena) is shorter than Dani and the same height as Monica. Serena certainly has the explosiveness of a sprinter, hurdler, running back, etc. (5-0 dosen't have the 411 in that Kimmy dosen't combine skills nearly as well, like sprinting to a ball, barely stopping, and rifling a forehand down the line for a W). Blacks have more "fast-twitch" muscles, which is why they dominate the "speed" positions in American sports. While whites tend to have done better @ distance running, the world's "superpower" in the marathon of course is Kenya, as the high altitude "breeds" better oxygen utilization and larger lungs; AND, unlike other "mountain peoples", they train @ distance running alot. Bottom line: genetics confer only greater potential, work the results. And great athletes like Steffi demonstrate that race is only one of various factors.

tennnisfannn
Jun 3rd, 2003, 10:52 AM
Can someone please define athletic. If you are talking of being muscular, where does that leave mauresmo, jen , Kim and shaughnessy. Why is height an advantage when people talk of Venus wing span, doesn't Daniela, Lindsay and Molik have the same?
Where does that leave chanda, she doesn't look like serena in stature at all.
Venus and serena are just individuals like every white player is. They are not representative of the entire black race.

fifiricci
Jun 3rd, 2003, 11:45 AM
I have an interesting proposal for this argument, if we are talking about pure athleticism:-

In her tennis playing prime Steffi Graf could run the Olympic qualifying time (at the time) for the 800m.

Get Serena and Venus to try that and see how it comes out.

PS: I bet Kim could give them a good race over that distance too!!

Cybelle Darkholme
Jun 3rd, 2003, 12:43 PM
Kim Clijsters has the physical build of Serena. She runs as fast, has better footwork, is more flexible, and equally as powerful.

IMO she is the best athlete on the tour. I think the Williams sisters muscles are so noticable that people take them to be stronger and more athletic than they are. Although I think the top 3 players in the world according to the rankings are also the top 3 athletes in the world.

True same build. Serena is faster. Kim has better footwork. Kim is more flexible no doubt. Serena is more powerful.

Andy_
Jun 3rd, 2003, 12:54 PM
I clearly remember that back in 1998, when tennis was a demonstrative sport at the Olympics in Seoul, Steffi Graf went and trained with the german athletics team and for the sake of fun she ran the 400ms with them. She was nearly as fast as them, which, with no specific training, was quite amazing :worship: I think Serena has more the built of a 100ms runner, it would be interesting to test her skills.

DunkMachine
Jun 3rd, 2003, 02:41 PM
Exactly Andy, I've heard somewhere that Venus (and Serena) had a choice at the beginning of her career to either become a distance runner or a tennisplayer. It's actually noticable if you look at the way she runs. I've never seen anyone score a dropshot on Vee.

Sprinters are bulky and that's why oth of them girls are fast.

On a sidenote, I think being of african descent does give you a natural disposition in movement and speed (Hence the longer and stronger limbs).
Europeans on the otherhand and even better the Asians have a disposition in upper body strength (hence the shorter limbs and larger upper body). That why they have an edge in weightlifting, hammerthrow etc... But because Asians are generally smaller than europeans they don't have representatives in higher weighclasses.
These are all facts. The question is what is the better asset in tennis, sprinting, football etc. I'd say speed and movement.

It ignorant to say there aren't any differences between the races. But ability within sports is more than just talent and your disposition. It's also about effort and practice.

That's why the Serena is so dominant because she excells in both strength and movement.

CC
Jun 3rd, 2003, 03:25 PM
I personally believe those Venus girls are mutants.

VivalaSeles
Jun 3rd, 2003, 03:26 PM
I am sorry, Steffica Greles, but your first post (either voluntarily or involuntarily) is racist and full of racial bias.

fifiricci
Jun 3rd, 2003, 04:47 PM
I personally believe those Venus girls are mutants.

From planet venus! More android than mutant I think and programmed by their father.

XMan
Jun 3rd, 2003, 04:55 PM
I agree with rd878.

DA FOREHAND
Jun 3rd, 2003, 06:16 PM
Jason Kidd is white OMG!

Again with the inferiority complex. Venus is not a very muscular woman. Pure strength is not the only factor in hitting a tennis ball hard(at least not one that lands in the court) if that's all it took Lucic would be at or near the top of the game. Lindsay crushes the ball and makes it look effortless. Hantu. could be a science class skeloton, and her shots pack a punch. Technique!

Steffi Graf world class athelete.
Martina Nav.
Lisa Raymond
Kim


Of the remaining Williams sisters only one looks like she could be into atheletics. Training discipline make a diff.

fammmmedspin
Jun 3rd, 2003, 06:43 PM
The answer is obviously yes. If you look at the world's top womens 100 M runner (Bloc) Marathon runner, 5000 M runner, hammer thrower/javelin thrower you will find people who are not Black. The best 400m runner (Mutola) is Angolan but her main competitors are European. Its the combination of abilities that matters plus economics, access and tradition. If it is genetic it is something more complex (look at where Seles/Majoli/Dokic or Hingis/Novotna/ Hantuchova/Navratilova or Steffi, Anke, Kim and Justine come from) Its not as simple as Black or White - even without allowing for 300 years of genetic exchanges in America.

korben
Jun 3rd, 2003, 06:56 PM
Not without banned substances. Period.

PhoenixStorm
Jun 3rd, 2003, 07:16 PM
How did jason kidd get into this discussion? oh and he's not white for the record.

brickhousesupporter
Jun 3rd, 2003, 07:42 PM
so what is Jason Kidd?

DunkMachine
Jun 3rd, 2003, 09:59 PM
Actually Da Forehand it's simple physics. It's all in the leverage. Hantu Vee and Linsday are tall players. Thats why they can generate more speed in their shots.

Zenith
Jun 3rd, 2003, 10:32 PM
No one is born an athlete, you may develop into one more quickly than the average person, but you still have to put in the hard work. There is no escaping that. If that was the case Zina Garrison, Alexandra Stevens and Chanda Rubin would've been right up there with the Williamses.

controlfreak
Jun 3rd, 2003, 10:53 PM
Ignoring the Williamseses for just a minute, I would like to express my thoughts on athleticism and tennis ability.

Firstly, I believe there is such a thing as natural athleticism. This is a hereditary trait. However it is also possible for anybody to increase their athleticism by hard work and training. Most of the top tennis players possess a combination of these two types of athleticism. Observe any sport at an amateur level and you will see natural athletes outmoving and outpacing those kids who were always picked last in the playground but have spent years striving to get better. Let's not forget Lindsay Davenport ;) . Of course in the end it's always the natural athletes who have the greater potential athleticism - although whether they fulfil that potential by training sufficiently hard is up to them.

The other main ingredient of a top tennis player is what I like to call Tennis Skill. Again, some people have it and some don't, and it's all determined before you are even born. You could take a young kid with no Tennis Skill and make them hit 100 forehands and 100 backhands every day for 15 years. You'd end up with a pretty good player, but they would still get beaten by a kid with Tennis Skill who only played once a month. These are the cruel facts of life people - and we've all experienced that bitter taste of defeat at the hands of the opponent we thought we should have beaten. Once again, virtually every pro player has a fair amount of this Tennis Skill I keep talking about, yet all of them have supplemented it with thousands of hours of drills and practises.

So the ideal tennis pro has natural plus supplementary athleticism, natural plus supplementary Tennis Skill... and then there is the mental side of the game.

As in the previous two examples, the mental aspect comes both as a natural gift and through training... I don't want to go into the gory details here but I will just say that in my opinion the mental side is as important as athleticism and skill COMBINED! It is at least 50% of any successful tennis player. You've seen what happens when a player breaks down and can't hit a ball in. What's the use of all your speed and skill if you don't know how to win? But that, my furry friends, is another story, for another day.

Goodnight.

VivalaSeles
Jun 4th, 2003, 12:02 AM
Just a correction: Maria Mutola is from Mozambique :)

Celeste
Jun 4th, 2003, 12:39 AM
I think lower Eastern/middle European players have tended to be the best at tennis, that has always been "my prejudice". Hana and Martina were such incredible athletes, and so was Steffi. Steffi could have been orld-class track material, and Hana also. Hana's father told her after a run as a youth that she was terrible at track. Years later he admitted she ran world-class numbers, but that steroids dominated that field so he lied to her so as to get her out of track because he didn't want her messed up with steroids.

Venus and Serena are great athletes, but a young Martina or someone could challenge them and beat them. Most Black women in the U.S. are not close to their skill level. The Williams girls really have it, but most Black girls don't, because being huge and hitting hard don't cut it, tons of white girls, and some Black girls, already do this and get no results. Their size and all helps them, but they are nothing special in the whole history of tennis. Time will reveal that Venus and Serena were great athletes, and great at tennis. Most girls from their backround cannot have both. White Russian girls will dominate in about 5-7 years, trust me.

Steffica Greles
Jun 4th, 2003, 01:03 AM
Okay, quickly before I go to bed.

Firstly for those who alleged I am a racist, I don't have to justify myself - so I won't.

But I'll take what you said as an unintended compliment :)

I have my own rules on what is politically correct and what is a legitimate topic to discuss.

I could have articulated my thoughts far better in the initial post, but as I am now, I was tired.

All I'll quickly say is this: I stand by my opinion that no white person could ever be AS athletic as they are.

No, I'm not disputing the Williams' have great minds. There simply is no doubt about that. Nor am I saying that all black women are stronger than white women. I'm not even saying that white women can't be great athletes.

But as ALL ROUND athletes (power, size, strength, movement, fleixibility) the Williams' are like nothing seen ever before.

And it is still my opinion that no white woman could ever be as athletic as the Williams'. Turn the argument on its head. Can you imagine a Japanese player being Serena's size? Of course not. So some races are obviously more athletic than others.

That doesn't mean any race is superior. Neither does it mean I begrudge the Williams' their dominance. They are the best, whatever colour they are - and I want to see them break records.

But that doesn't mean I'll be bound by political correctness. I make no apologies.

Good night.
:)
:)

Tennis Fool
Jun 4th, 2003, 01:16 AM
Yeah, James Blake has just been tearing through the draw, as always:rolleyes:

Tennis Fool
Jun 4th, 2003, 01:18 AM
To be fair, we had an ongoing discussion on this topic at Atpworld (RIP :sad: ).

Anyway, interesting that most of the ATP posters thought race *definitely* had an influence on athleticism.

Freewoman33
Jun 4th, 2003, 03:30 AM
I the Lucic hits the ball the hardest. Only problem is that her shots are not controlled. Mostof them land outside of the lines. I saw her play Venus at the USO last year and I can remember telling myself what a hard hitter she was.

VivalaSeles
Jun 4th, 2003, 03:38 AM
I did not state you were racist. I stated the message was.
This has little to do with political correctness. When even the concept of "race" is questioned and not accepted by numerous scholars, I think it is incorrect to attribute to a certain so called race more athletic genetic capabilities than to others. That's all.

DunkMachine
Jun 4th, 2003, 09:54 PM
I strongly belive that being from a particulair descent, either African, European or Asian, have different physical attributes and are therefore more profficient in different areas.

If it balances out, I don't know. But the most appealing and intense sports are dominated by Africans and those of African descent. I saw a documentairy about a tennis coach that went to africa(I think Ghana) to find talent. I gotta say, there were some kids out there with some mad skills.

I see it like this white people have been saying when airial combat that black people were a liability, yet in WW2 an all black squadron were the first in history to sink a destroyer with gunfire. Not to mention the inventors and scholars etc... Then when black people dominated the sprints, white people began to say that they would be blown away in long distance runs, yet the Ethiopians emerged. In boxing and kickboxing, who were the greatest athletes? Black guys and one of em from :bounce: Suriname :worship: .

All I can say is that theres an apparent pattern in the physical abilities of my people, so how else can it be explained?

Jakeev
Jun 5th, 2003, 02:35 AM
I strongly belive that being from a particulair descent, either African, European or Asian, have different physical attributes and are therefore more profficient in different areas.

If it balances out, I don't know. But the most appealing and intense sports are dominated by Africans and those of African descent. I saw a documentairy about a tennis coach that went to africa(I think Ghana) to find talent. I gotta say, there were some kids out there with some mad skills.

I see it like this white people have been saying when airial combat that black people were a liability, yet in WW2 an all black squadron were the first in history to sink a destroyer with gunfire. Not to mention the inventors and scholars etc... Then when black people dominated the sprints, white people began to say that they would be blown away in long distance runs, yet the Ethiopians emerged. In boxing and kickboxing, who were the greatest athletes? Black guys and one of em from :bounce: Suriname :worship: .

All I can say is that theres an apparent pattern in the physical abilities of my people, so how else can it be explained?

So SkunkMachine then what explains your moronic and homophobic pea-brian of yours?

CC
Jun 5th, 2003, 02:50 AM
All I'll quickly say is this: I stand by my opinion that no white person could ever be AS athletic as they are.

But as ALL ROUND athletes (power, size, strength, movement, fleixibility) the Williams' are like nothing seen ever before.

And it is still my opinion that no white woman could ever be as athletic as the Williams'. Turn the argument on its head. Can you imagine a Japanese player being Serena's size? Of course not. So some races are obviously more athletic than others.



I'm telling you, they are freaks of nature. Awe-inspiring anomalies we have never seen before and will never see the likes of again. I can certainly understand why you would be so taken aback.

decemberlove
Jun 5th, 2003, 08:20 AM
so what is Jason Kidd?


kidd is mixed... isnt it obvious?

DunkMachine
Jun 5th, 2003, 08:28 AM
So SkunkMachine then what explains your moronic and homophobic pea-brian of yours?

LOL I mite be a bit radical in my beliefs. But just because I declined your sexual advances in PM and called you a buttpirate you don't have to get personal.

I can't say I really blame you for trying, good luck in finding a new love :wavey:

1jackson2001
Jun 5th, 2003, 08:31 AM
I think so.

DunkMachine
Jun 5th, 2003, 08:33 AM
Look what you made me do. You made me tho yo bidness all out.

Back to the subject. What's wrong with calling Jason Kidd white, he IS for the most part. If someone who's half black is considered black can't someone who's 80% white be called white?

treufreund
Jun 5th, 2003, 09:00 AM
OMG Jason Kidd may have some black in him which I did not know but if he is 80% white he should not be so athletic according to the race hypothesis concerning athletics. But you certainly cannot look at the guy and say that he is black. :rolleyes:

America is sometimes so screwed up. You can have the palest skin, light eyes and light hair and still be considered black. Believe me, you can and no amount of telling me why that is right based on old discriminatory practices which considered you black if you had a drop of black blood will make me look at that differently. And yes James Blake is VERY athletic but his mom was a long jumper and she is British so who knows why he is so athletic.

Pete Sampras and Patrick Rafter in their prime were the most athletic tennis players I can even think of.

decemberlove
Jun 5th, 2003, 10:00 AM
in america, if you are "tainted" by something other than a shade darker than white, or even olive, then you arent considered white. sad but true. and while jason may be closer to white [im not sure of the exact percentage], he is nowhere near the "whiteness" of dirk, peja, nash, etc. plus, kidd is known mostly for his great court vision than for his athletism.

the truth is, is that not anyone can become an athlete. one can train harder than any other athlete and they may never accomplish anything. certain body types restrict a person. i agree with rd# on this one.

of course a white european can be just as good as vee and ree. serena and venus have two totally different body types. im sure its a lot easier to find a taller, lankier white european, than a tall, bulkier european girl.

Kirt12255
Jun 5th, 2003, 10:28 AM
:wavey: I have alot of respect for both of the Williams'....my point being this is a world game....why America or Europe?? I think if someone with the natural ability as the Williams' have and determination comes through a bubble of beurocratism and money.....perhaps Africa could produce a champion?. I know Gavin Hopper has been training his daughter for success here in Australia..at 11 and speaks to the Media like they owe her something.

My point is.....there is no reason to claim all champions will come from the US or Europe.....only 2 continents :wavey: