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View Full Version : Breaking down the strokes...Top Five


DA FOREHAND
May 13th, 2003, 07:07 PM
1st Serve

Serena
Venus
Lindsay
Justine
Stevenson

2nd Serve

Serena
Lindsay
Justine
Venus
?

Forehand

Serena
Lindsay
Capriati
Kim
Venus

Backhand

Venus
Serena
Henin
Lindsay
Kim

Overhead

Lindsay
Henin
Kournikova
Serena
Venus

Volleys(net play)

Venus
Henin
Lindsay
Kournikova
Rubin

DA FOREHAND
May 13th, 2003, 08:28 PM
Any questions?

ys
May 13th, 2003, 08:32 PM
Questions about what? Would you ever ask a janitor about electronics?

Kart
May 13th, 2003, 08:34 PM
My question is : is that second serve no.4 a joke ?

Ryan
May 13th, 2003, 08:37 PM
Venus has the best volleys? Hahahahahahaha.

DA FOREHAND
May 13th, 2003, 08:41 PM
I see there are lots of dissenters, but nobody else is putting forth a list to be picked apart.

R.I.F.

It says Volleys(net Play) and we're talking singles here not doubles where you are already at the net. Nobody else in the game covers the net like Venus.

faboozadoo15
May 13th, 2003, 08:49 PM
my take... since u did not put monica in any of the top 5's

1st serve
venus
serena
lindsay
stevenson
iroda or justine

2nd serve
serena
lindsay
justine
monica
kim

forehand
serena
jennifer
lindsay
kim
venus

backhand
venus
monica
justine
momo
serena

overhead
serena
venus
lindsay
monica
jenn

net play (hmmm) do they have to be "net player" or just successful WHEN they get there... like jenn, lindsay, or monica...
if not, then
ai
lisa
justine
chanda
?

CJ07
May 13th, 2003, 09:11 PM
Forehand
Serena
Venus (very underrated)
Lindsay
Jennifer
Kim

Backhand
Venus
Serena
Lindsay
Monica
Justine

Serve
Serena
Venus
Justine
Lindsay
?

kodeRED
May 13th, 2003, 09:59 PM
venus at second serve and forehand is the worst analysis i have ever heard have u ever seen either of those two shots.... her second serve is punished by anyone/everyone...and her forehand breaks down and falters all the time !!!! u r whack'd

mboyle
May 13th, 2003, 10:35 PM
First Serve:
1. Serena
2. Lindsay
3. Venus
4. Stevenson
5. Iroda/Justine

Second Serve:
1. Serena Williams

BIG GAP

2. Lindsay
3. Kim

BIG GAP

4. Stevenson (best when on, but inconsistent)
5. Ms. Nobody (no one else knows how to hit it so it isn't a weakness

Forehand:
1. Serena
1. Jen Cap
3. Lindsay
4. Kim
5. Dementieva

Backhand:
1. Venus
1. Justine
3. Serena
4. Monica
5. Lindsay
(though pretty much all the top players have good if not great backhands)

Overhead:
1. Lindsay
2. Kournikova
3. Venus
4. Serena
5. Kim (but she likes those swingie things more)

Net Play:
1. Venus
2. Kournikova
3. Amelie Mauresmo
4. Justine Henin
5. Stevenson

Dava
May 13th, 2003, 10:36 PM
Serenas forehand is not that good, her backhand is much better. Its usually the first thing to go when she plays.

QUEENLINDSAY
May 13th, 2003, 10:51 PM
First Serve:
1. Serena
2. Lindsay
3. Venus
4. Justine
5. Iroda

Second Serve:
1. Serena
2. Lindsay
3. Kim
4. Justine
5. Iroda

Forehand:
1. Jen Cap
2. Lindsay
3. Serena
4. Rubin
5. Kim
6. Dementieva

Backhand:
1. Lindsay
2. Venus
3. Serena
4. Monica
5. Kim

Overhead:
1. Lindsay
2. Kournikova
3. Venus
4. Serena
5. Kim

Net Play:

1. Kournikova
2. Venus
3. Amelie Mauresmo
4. Rubin
5. Lindsay

faboozadoo15
May 13th, 2003, 11:13 PM
monica's second serve is underrated. she has good placement and averages about 82-85 mph... that's pretty darn good...

o0O0o
May 13th, 2003, 11:51 PM
Oh my God these lists are pathetic, some of you are completely clueless about tennis. Venus good at volleying? Ha! When is the last time she won a net point when she was on equal ground with her opponent? Probably never. Volleying is not whacking a 50 foot lob every other point. And her second serve and forehand? You've got to be kidding. Also the Williams sisters flub a hell of a lot of overheads too.

First Serve
1) Serena
2) Venus
3) Lindsay
4) Mauresmo
5) Henin

Second Serve
1) Serena
2) Lindsay
3) Daniela (HELLO PEOPLE, are you seriously that lacking in common tennis knowledge? Her kick second serve is great)
4) Justine
5) Kim

Forehand
1) Lindsay
2) Capriati
3) Dementieva
4) Serena
5) Kim
Honorable Mention: Chanda Rubin, Meghann Shaughnessy

Backhand
1) Lindsay
2) Venus
3) Henin
4) Hantuchova
5) Mauresmo

Overhead
Anyone except Venus, Serena, and Clijsters. Other than that choosing the best would be splitting hairs.

Volleys
1) Kournikova
2) Mauresmo
3) Henin
4) Rubin (Oh this is so sad that she is the fourth best on tour, no one can volley anymore)
5) Davenport

Court Coverage
1) Kim
2) Serena
3) Venus
4) Justine
5) Capriati

Groundstroke Power
1) Lindsay Davenport
2) Jelena Dokic
3) Monica Seles
4) Serena Williams
5) Elena Dementieva

Finesse
1) Henin
2) Mauresmo
3) Kournikova
4) Clijsters
5) Schnyder

faboozadoo15
May 13th, 2003, 11:57 PM
i agree abt foregtting dani's second serve, but u put dementieva on more top5 lists than monica... and that's just crazy.

ktwtennis
May 13th, 2003, 11:59 PM
Court Coverage isn't breaking down strokes of a player...:rolleyes:

shap_half
May 14th, 2003, 12:00 AM
First Serve
Venus Williams
Serena Williams
Alexandra Stevenson
Justine Henin-Hardenne
Iroda Tulyaganova

Second Serve
Serena Williams
Justine Henin-Hardenne [go for broke]
Lindsay Davenport
Alexandra Stevenson
Kim Clijsters

Forehand
Jennifer Capriati
Kim Clijsters
Serena Williams
Justine Henin-Hardenne [very, very underrated due to the forehand]
Elena Dementieva

Backhand
Justine Henin-Hardenne
Venus Williams
Lindsay Davenport
Daniela Hantuchova
Monica Seles

Overhead
Jennifer Capriati
Venus Williams
Justine Henin-Hardenne
Serena Williams
Anna Kournikova

Net Play
Venus Williams
Justine Henin-Hardenne
Chanda Rubin

o0O0o
May 14th, 2003, 12:05 AM
I know what court coverage is and is not, but I'd figure I'd throw it in for fun. And Dementieva is much like Kournikova in that she has a lot of great individual shots but cannot seem to put them together for a match. And last time I checked, Monica and Elena are juxtaposed in the rankings and one of them is rapidly improving and one of them is not.

~|Naomi|~
May 14th, 2003, 01:03 AM
Interesting that not many of you actually rate Kim's backhand as that good. She sets the majority of her points up with it, Davenport thinks it's better than her forehand that it is one of ther best in tennis. She can also do anything with it. Kim's backhand is better than her forehand. And her forehand is mighty fine :)

faboozadoo15
May 14th, 2003, 01:08 AM
i would hope that a player who is "rapidly improving" would be "juxtaposed" to monica seles in the rankings if she plays 14 more tournaments than her. monica is simply in another league certainly just by her consistency alone. she wins with regularity, whereas...
and a player's "stroke quality" should not be based on what you CAN see happening in their game. it's based on what it is.

faboozadoo15
May 14th, 2003, 01:13 AM
not to say anything against elena. her title run was beautiful, and i'm proud she didn't ever give up on her return back to the top...

Knizzle
May 14th, 2003, 01:20 AM
venus at second serve and forehand is the worst analysis i have ever heard have u ever seen either of those two shots.... her second serve is punished by anyone/everyone...and her forehand breaks down and falters all the time !!!! u r whack'd

Name 5 current players who punish Venus' second serve.

Knizzle
May 14th, 2003, 01:29 AM
Oh my God these lists are pathetic, some of you are completely clueless about tennis. Venus good at volleying? Ha! When is the last time she won a net point when she was on equal ground with her opponent? Probably never. Volleying is not whacking a 50 foot lob every other point. And her second serve and forehand? You've got to be kidding. Also the Williams sisters flub a hell of a lot of overheads too.

First Serve
1) Serena
2) Venus
3) Lindsay
4) Mauresmo
5) Henin

Second Serve
1) Serena
2) Lindsay
3) Daniela (HELLO PEOPLE, are you seriously that lacking in common tennis knowledge? Her kick second serve is great)
4) Justine
5) Kim

Forehand
1) Lindsay
2) Capriati
3) Dementieva
4) Serena
5) Kim
Honorable Mention: Chanda Rubin, Meghann Shaughnessy

Backhand
1) Lindsay
2) Venus
3) Henin
4) Hantuchova
5) Mauresmo

Overhead
Anyone except Venus, Serena, and Clijsters. Other than that choosing the best would be splitting hairs.

Volleys
1) Kournikova
2) Mauresmo
3) Henin
4) Rubin (Oh this is so sad that she is the fourth best on tour, no one can volley anymore)
5) Davenport

Court Coverage
1) Kim
2) Serena
3) Venus
4) Justine
5) Capriati

Groundstroke Power
1) Lindsay Davenport
2) Jelena Dokic
3) Monica Seles
4) Serena Williams
5) Elena Dementieva

Finesse
1) Henin
2) Mauresmo
3) Kournikova
4) Clijsters
5) Schnyder

Kim better than Venus and Serena in court coverage??? Are you crazy?? You cannot be serious!! Kim is good, but not that good. And for everyone who is leaving Venus off of their top five lists. How then is she a player who others in the top ten can't beat?? (other than Serena of course) It doesn't make sense for her to be not as good as these other players in so many areas, but they can't beat her.

Leena
May 14th, 2003, 01:40 AM
Just because someone hits a 1st serve hard like Alex, doesn't mean it's the best...

I don't feel like making lists now...

Mikey
May 14th, 2003, 02:49 AM
Name 5 current players who punish Venus' second serve.
Amelie, Meghann, Serena, Clijsters, Davenport....

Knizzle
May 14th, 2003, 02:49 AM
Just because someone hits a 1st serve hard like Alex, doesn't mean it's the best...

I don't feel like making lists now...

Right, because if Alex's serve was really top five she would probably have better results.

Knizzle
May 14th, 2003, 02:52 AM
Amelie, Meghann, Serena, Clijsters, Davenport....

Amelie-No
Meghan- did the last time they played
Serena- Of course, she started the whole thing
Clijsters- NO
Davenport-She tries but it is not good enough. Used to back in the day though.

Next!!

SerialKiller#69
May 14th, 2003, 02:57 AM
umm... alex's serve can be deadly though even if it's not the best.

CJ07
May 14th, 2003, 03:11 AM
Amelie, Meghann, Serena, Clijsters, Davenport....
Venus's second serve and forehand are waay too crticized

Kims forehand can be the sloppiest thing I've ever seen. That thing can spray some balls.

Justine, while she has improved it vastly, mishit her forehand more times than i have fingers and toes.

Lindsay makes just as many errors off that side as Venus does.

AND

Elena Dementieva, yes Elena Dementieva won more points on her second serve than Davenport did in the AI Final!!!

And also, I didnt here anyone saying anything about Venus 2 years ago. Everyone said she was the best thing since slice bread. Serena has been facing that serve since she was 4, she showed people how to pop it. And Venus's second serve just lacks depth and pace at times, but usually its just fine.

And with her forehand, thats the side she just makes errors from. Everyone makes errors, and thats where they come from with her. Its not as bad as people say it is. Trust me, some players would KILL to have V's forehand.

oh and with your list

Amelie-No, shes not really a great returner and if so, why has she only "beaten" Venus once?

Meghann-only when she can run around on her forehand, and she did that twice when she was on and when venus was OFF (and the other time she still needed a third set tiebreak)

Serena- Well Duh. Shes been returning V's serve since they were kids! And Shes the best returner ever anyway!

Kim- See Meghann, and otherwise NO

Davenport-she used to back in the day, but nowadays shes lucky to win games against V
6-2 6-1 and 7-5 6-0 (losing what 10 games in a row?) isnt exactly popping a second serve. and if it is, everything else must be pretty darn good

whew. Anyway, the Queen is the queen and ya'll are just jealous :p

CJ07
May 14th, 2003, 03:15 AM
http://eur.news1.yimg.com/eur.yimg.com/xp/empics/20020702/1946771484.jpg
:worship:

http://www.suntimes.co.za/2002/09/01/sport/sport/27-s1venus.jpg
:worship:

:p

Knizzle
May 14th, 2003, 04:46 AM
Great pics, mmcdonald!!!

switz
May 14th, 2003, 05:21 AM
patty schnyder for all categories except backhand and volleys. Of course i mean when she is on, because a lot of time she would not be in the top 30.

the one thing i will say, however, is that her forehand is one of sweetest strokes. i am sure that few of you have seen her play a lot, but when you watch it live it is just mesmerising the way she can do anything with the play and she rarely misses when she is playing well. i am saying this a objective point, not just because she is my favourite.

best best better
May 14th, 2003, 08:31 AM
It's a really difficult, but nevertheless interesting topic. I couldn't even begin to claim enough knowledge to rate the top 5 in the WTA on strokes. But from what I've seen over the last 4 years or so, and sticking roughly to the Top 20 I would rate my Top 5 on strokes as follows. (Out of the Top 20 I admit to not knowing enough about the games of Rubin, Daniliidou and Bovina and Myskina). Also you have to take into consideration consistency of the stroke too, and how easily it breaks down under pressure (imo). So it's not easy at all.

First Serve

Serena Williams
Lindsay Davenport
Venus Williams (consistency issues)
Justine Henin (rarely gets taken to the cleaners when the first serve is in)
Amelie Mauresmo

Second Serve

Serena Williams
Lindsay Davenport
Iroda Tulyaganova
Daniela Hantuchova
Monica Seles

Return of Serve

Serena Williams
Lindsay Davenport
Venus Williams
Jennifer Capriati
Henin (possibly her most underrated stroke)/Clijsters


Forehand

Lindsay Davenport
Jennifer Capriati
Elena Dementieva
Serena Williams
Kim Clijsters


Backhand

Serena Williams
Justine Henin
Venus Williams
Amelie Mauresmo
Patty Schnyder

Forehand Volley

Patty Schnyder
Ai Sugiyama
Serena Williams
Amanda Coetzer
Chanda Rubin

Backhand Volley

Patty Schnyder
Serena Williams
Daniela Hantuchova
Justine Henin
Lindsay Davenport

(Is it me, or do many of the Top 10 players really struggle comparatively with their forehand volleys?)

Overhead

Serena Williams
Venus Williams
Lindsay Davenport
Kim Clijsters
Justine Henin

Just a little note. Kim Clijsters is currently the No2 player in the world, and doesn't feature prominently on many of my category choices. I think that, aside from Serena, Kim is the most consistent player out there right now. If I were a Kim a fan, I would never have the problem of worrying 'which' Kim is gonna turn up on the court, because I know that she's is gonna give a really good account of herself. She does have some great, heavy strokes (her forehand for example), but in terms of sheer weaponry I think hers are movement, shot selection and consistency - none of which are actually 'shots'.

BBB

Zhao
May 14th, 2003, 08:50 AM
First Serve

Serena Williams
Lindsay Davenport
Venus Williams
Jennifer Capriati (Lets not forget she aces Serena a couple of times)
Amelie Mauresmo

Second Serve

Serena Williams
Lindsay Davenport
Iroda Tulyaganova
Daniela Hantuchova
Monica Seles

Return of Serve

Serena Williams
Jennifer Capriati
Lindsay Davenport
Venus Williams
Monica Seles


Forehand

Jennifer Capriati
Lindsay Davenport
Elena Dementieva
Serena Williams
Justine Henin


Backhand

Serena Williams
Justine Henin
Venus Williams
Jennifer Capriati
Lindsay Davenport

Overhead

Serena Williams
Venus Williams
Lindsay Davenport
Justine Henin
Jennifer Capriait

ktwtennis
May 14th, 2003, 10:34 AM
I know what court coverage is and is not, but I'd figure I'd throw it in for fun. And Dementieva is much like Kournikova in that she has a lot of great individual shots but cannot seem to put them together for a match. And last time I checked, Monica and Elena are juxtaposed in the rankings and one of them is rapidly improving and one of them is not.Just because I proved your obnoxious post wrong, does not mean you have the right to make stupid comments like these...Give Monica time and health, and she'll be back in the top ten...

CJ07
May 14th, 2003, 11:47 AM
as much as I love Serena, her traditional volleys are awful. They REALLY need work. Her Swing Volleys are great, but I think she wanted to be like Monica a little too much in that department.

DA FOREHAND
May 14th, 2003, 02:08 PM
No way does Serena Volley or have better net coverage than Venus.

Court coverage?

Venus(nobody else has the reach or gets it back deeper from defensive position)
Serena
Kim
Capriati(the best on the forehand side)
Henin

Mikey
May 15th, 2003, 02:14 AM
Amelie-No
Meghan- did the last time they played
Serena- Of course, she started the whole thing
Clijsters- NO
Davenport-She tries but it is not good enough. Used to back in the day though.

Next!!
You asked me to name players that attack her second serve. I gave them to you. They're all right.

Everything you said is contradictory. You say, "only this time" - you asked for players that have done it, she did, but yet you disagree with that. :rolleyes:

I didn't say all of those players beat her, I just said they attack her second serve. If you want to say that they don't, then you're either blind, insane, or ridiculously naive.

And mmcdonald, unless you didn't read knizzle's original post, the same goes for you.

Why do people ask for something in their posts, get it, and then say that the other person is wrong because they were actually asking a different question? It makes no sense to me :rolleyes: I guess we should all know what people are trying to say even when they don't say it.

CJ07
May 15th, 2003, 03:05 AM
well everyone attacks everyones second serve so he should have worded that differently

I was going under the presumption you mean who has beaten Venus by attacking her second serve

Anybody's second serve can be vulnerable

F-R-E-A-K
May 15th, 2003, 03:12 AM
HINGIS = Backhand, Volleys, Court coverage..

Martina always had excellent Volley skills and 1 of best Backhand down the lines... and her court coverage was excellent b4 she had all these injuries!!
She should have been put onto these lists!

Knizzle
May 15th, 2003, 04:23 AM
You asked me to name players that attack her second serve. I gave them to you. They're all right.

Everything you said is contradictory. You say, "only this time" - you asked for players that have done it, she did, but yet you disagree with that. :rolleyes:

I didn't say all of those players beat her, I just said they attack her second serve. If you want to say that they don't, then you're either blind, insane, or ridiculously naive.

And mmcdonald, unless you didn't read knizzle's original post, the same goes for you.

Why do people ask for something in their posts, get it, and then say that the other person is wrong because they were actually asking a different question? It makes no sense to me :rolleyes: I guess we should all know what people are trying to say even when they don't say it.

Mikey, I was originally responding to this post.

Originally Posted by kodeRED
venus at second serve and forehand is the worst analysis i have ever heard have u ever seen either of those two shots.... her second serve is punished by anyone/everyone...and her forehand breaks down and falters all the time !!!! u r whack'd

Then I posed the question "Name 5 people who punish Venus' second serve" The keyword being "punish" There are certainly not 5 players who punish the second serve of Venus Williams. Attacking it is one thing punishing it is another, Serena has the ability to punish Venus' second serve, Meghan showed she can do it from her forehand side. Lindsay used to do it, but now her return is not lethal like it used to be. Alot of players attack Venus' second serve, but Venus is such an athlete that she is able to get to that attack and send it deep over the net bringing the point back to neutral. The players who have punished her second serve have beaten her. (Serena/Meghan) There is a fine line between punishing and attacking.

Mikey
May 16th, 2003, 12:08 AM
well everyone attacks everyones second serve so he should have worded that differently

I was going under the presumption you mean who has beaten Venus by attacking her second serve

Anybody's second serve can be vulnerable
That's kind of what I figured actually ;)

Sorry I sort of yelled at you then :p - You were right in what you said though ;)

Mikey
May 16th, 2003, 12:09 AM
Mikey, I was originally responding to this post.



Then I posed the question "Name 5 people who punish Venus' second serve" The keyword being "punish" There are certainly not 5 players who punish the second serve of Venus Williams. Attacking it is one thing punishing it is another, Serena has the ability to punish Venus' second serve, Meghan showed she can do it from her forehand side. Lindsay used to do it, but now her return is not lethal like it used to be. Alot of players attack Venus' second serve, but Venus is such an athlete that she is able to get to that attack and send it deep over the net bringing the point back to neutral. The players who have punished her second serve have beaten her. (Serena/Meghan) There is a fine line between punishing and attacking.
That's fine. I still might argue from my list, but it's not really worth it. I agree that punishing and attacking are two different things.

Next time, don't be so rude when someone disagrees with you :rolleyes:

Ryan
May 16th, 2003, 12:18 AM
Wow Mikey, Knizzle is just completely stupid so ignore him. Players that "punish" Venus' second serve? Define punish. I assume that it means take an offensive stance from the second serve and control the point from that return. So all 5 of Mikey's choices are correct, and you could add Seles to that list, hellooooo, last years Masters?

o0O0o
May 16th, 2003, 12:20 AM
Don't forget Henin, she stands almost on the damn service line when she returns Venus' second serve (although she does a terrible job with Venus' first serve).

CJ07
May 16th, 2003, 03:45 AM
I would define Punish as what Serena did to lindsay at charleston

and in that sense, no one consistently "punishes"
Venus's second serve other than Serena

I really fail to understand why people have to criticize V so much. Just like she said, when shes winning, theres a problem, when shes losing, theres a problem

Give the girl a break!

I was just watching some LD matches and her forehand was even worse than Venus's

the difference i see is that LD is just sloppy, while V tends to mishit and or take balls late

I guess thats why pick on her so much

and also because she's supposed to be #2/#1 in the world

and the fact that she goes into 90% of her tournaments unprepared with a "bad" forehand and second serve it just shows how shes Queen

http://photos.wtastarz.com/data/505/7113162be05a0.jpg

:hearts: :worship: :hearts:

Knizzle
May 16th, 2003, 04:17 AM
Wow Mikey, Knizzle is just completely stupid so ignore him. Players that "punish" Venus' second serve? Define punish. I assume that it means take an offensive stance from the second serve and control the point from that return. So all 5 of Mikey's choices are correct, and you could add Seles to that list, hellooooo, last years Masters?

Ryan15 you don't know me to call me stupid #1. Punish is definitely a stronger synonym for attack in tennis terms. Which would you think is worse?? If that many people punished Venus' second serve then Venus would have many more losses than she does.

Knizzle
May 16th, 2003, 04:18 AM
That's fine. I still might argue from my list, but it's not really worth it. I agree that punishing and attacking are two different things.

Next time, don't be so rude when someone disagrees with you :rolleyes:

How was I rude?? I apologize if I came off as rude, but I didn't think what I said was rude.