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leslie
May 13th, 2003, 12:33 PM
O.K. people this is where the double standards come into play when dealing with the W/S. What Dockic said about her opponent yesterday was truly abhorrent. Could you imagine if the W/S had said anything like that, we would see a 4 page thread on the topic rediculing them and calling them all sorts of names, yet, nothing is said about Dockic. DOUBLE STANDARDS WE SAY. I hope the next time the W/S say anything that most of the time is not negative but is turned into something negative by their haters I do not see pages of threads about it.

Flatstat
May 13th, 2003, 12:36 PM
It looks well covered in the Martinez Def Dokic thread.

gentenaire
May 13th, 2003, 12:42 PM
what do you mean, nothing is said? I've always said I like Dokic least of all the players because of her comments! She's often like that after a loss!

~RedRose~
May 13th, 2003, 12:47 PM
Yes this has been discussed .... I think that the conclusion is that the staements were not v.nice on Jelena's part. However they were quite true to the most extent, even Conchita said she played bad herself and was surprised. Jelena was just a little upset and angry and it is a common fact that the girl tells it like it is.

& Beggin' Beguine, Jelena doesn't say many mean comments at all. Basically this is the only recent one she has said. SOmetimes she says it was her that lost, but that is because most of the time it is.
I think ppl bag DOkic cause she tells it like it is, and ppl are afraid of the truth.

DEETHELICK
May 13th, 2003, 12:47 PM
I have to agree with Leslie, if it was a Williams sister, then we would have seen a much more HUGE thread picking on them. The same would also apply to Jen.

I know my faves (Jen and Elena) have been catty, but never to the extent that Dokic goes. Jen sometimes withholds credit due to other opponents, but I have never heard her or Elena actually diss the other opponents play.

EG - Jen didnt say nothing negative about Conchita or her play after her 6-0 6-3 loss to her last year.

Dokic needs to sort out a helluva alot of things IMO. Attitude being number 1, as whilst Jen can get fired up and still compete, all Jelena does is sulk (I saw the match yday).

King Lindsay
May 13th, 2003, 12:51 PM
O.K. people this is where the double standards come into play when dealing with the W/S. What Dockic said about her opponent yesterday was truly abhorrent. Could you imagine if the W/S had said anything like that, we would see a 4 page thread on the topic rediculing them and calling them all sorts of names, yet, nothing is said about Dockic. DOUBLE STANDARDS WE SAY. I hope the next time the W/S say anything that most of the time is not negative but is turned into something negative by their haters I do not see pages of threads about it.

first of all, a bunch of people jumped all over jelena for it.

Second of all, if Dokic was as big a star as Venus or Serena, you could bet it would be an even larger story.

Thirdly, quit bitching about NOTHING.

leslie
May 13th, 2003, 12:51 PM
what do you mean, nothing is said? I've always said I like Dokic least of all the players because of her comments! She's often like that after a loss!

As I said before that thread is nothing compare to if Venus or Serena had said those words and we all know that they would not say something like that but the slighest non-negative thing you guys jump all over the sisters. When serena said something about playing below her level something like 9000 notches this board went insane and grant it Serena was talking about herself not her opponent. I am just trying to point out how you guys are towards the sisters and not other opponents but I guess you guys will never see the difference.

Another example, Justine pulled out of the IO and everyone was on her side and agreed that she should not play but boy, let it be Serena or Venus we would be hearing oh, they have no respect for the sport, they are always pulling out of tournments, they do not play enough etc. etc. As I said before they are damn if they do and damn if they don't. Like Venus said "If I lose there's a problem, If I win there's a problem what am I to do". So true Vee.

Dava
May 13th, 2003, 12:55 PM
But people slag Jelly off to the high heavens anyway about what she says in her PC's!!! Why does it warent a thread.

King Lindsay
May 13th, 2003, 12:56 PM
I'm getting really, really, really sick of all these "double standard" and "the williams sisters are picked on" threads from a few complaining whiners. Just SHUT UP ALREADY. You have no case! nothing you say holds any weight because you're full of shit. You would think being the fans of the best players in the world would make you less irritable and sensitive. Yeah, Serena and Venus are just SOOO hard done by. Just leave it alone. what exactly is the aim of threads like this? To make me pity Venus and Serena? To make me feel sorry for the terrible, horrible, awful, disgraceful, malicious treatment they get on a MESSAGE BOARD? Or is one person's desire to just be a complete moronic bitch? ding ding ding, yes, I think we have a winner right there.

gentenaire
May 13th, 2003, 12:58 PM
I'm getting really, really, really sick of all these "double standard" and "the williams sisters are picked on" threads from a few complaining whiners. Just SHUT UP ALREADY. You have no case! nothing you say holds any weight because you're full of shit. You would think being the fans of the best players in the world would make you less irritable and sensitive. Yeah, Serena and Venus are just SOOO hard done by. Just leave it alone. what exactly is the aim of threads like this? To make me pity Venus and Serena? To make me feel sorry for the terrible, horrible, awful, disgraceful, malicious treatment they get on a MESSAGE BOARD? Or is one person's desire to just be a complete moronic bitch? ding ding ding, yes, I think we have a winner right there.

:worship:

leslie
May 13th, 2003, 12:58 PM
I have to agree with Leslie, if it was a Williams sister, then we would have seen a much more HUGE thread picking on them. The same would also apply to Jen.

I know my faves (Jen and Elena) have been catty, but never to the extent that Dokic goes. Jen sometimes withholds credit due to other opponents, but I have never heard her or Elena actually diss the other opponents play.

EG - Jen didnt say nothing negative about Conchita or her play after her 6-0 6-3 loss to her last year.

Dokic needs to sort out a helluva alot of things IMO. Attitude being number 1, as whilst Jen can get fired up and still compete, all Jelena does is sulk (I saw the match yday).

You are right, I know I get on Jen sometimes but I have never heard her say anything that outrageous about her opponents. Jen might withhold true, and it is smart of players to do that rather than to say crap like what Dockic said.

gentenaire
May 13th, 2003, 12:59 PM
& Beggin' Beguine, Jelena doesn't say many mean comments at all. Basically this is the only recent one she has said. SOmetimes she says it was her that lost, but that is because most of the time it is.
I think ppl bag DOkic cause she tells it like it is, and ppl are afraid of the truth.

stress on 'recent', I guess. If there's one player who's a terrible loser, it's Jelena.

leslie
May 13th, 2003, 01:04 PM
I'm getting really, really, really sick of all these "double standard" and "the williams sisters are picked on" threads from a few complaining whiners. Just SHUT UP ALREADY. You have no case! nothing you say holds any weight because you're full of shit. You would think being the fans of the best players in the world would make you less irritable and sensitive. Yeah, Serena and Venus are just SOOO hard done by. Just leave it alone. what exactly is the aim of threads like this? To make me pity Venus and Serena? To make me feel sorry for the terrible, horrible, awful, disgraceful, malicious treatment they get on a MESSAGE BOARD? Or is one person's desire to just be a complete moronic bitch? ding ding ding, yes, I think we have a winner right there.

The aim of this thread is to show that Richard Williams is King and he knows what he is talking about when he speaks of racism and his daughters in the WTA as we can all see racism is on this board towards the sisters also. Venus and Serena certainly does not need your pity they could buy you and sell you over and over again. You can call me whatever the hell you want. The truth hurts and you can't stand it that what I am saying is the truth when it comes to the sisters. Live with it. And yes baby, I do have a case.

servenrichie
May 13th, 2003, 01:14 PM
Quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by King Lindsay
I'm getting really, really, really sick of all these "double standard" and "the williams sisters are picked on" threads from a few complaining whiners. Just SHUT UP ALREADY. You have no case! nothing you say holds any weight because you're full of shit. You would think being the fans of the best players in the world would make you less irritable and sensitive. Yeah, Serena and Venus are just SOOO hard done by. Just leave it alone. what exactly is the aim of threads like this? To make me pity Venus and Serena? To make me feel sorry for the terrible, horrible, awful, disgraceful, malicious treatment they get on a MESSAGE BOARD? Or is one person's desire to just be a complete moronic bitch? ding ding ding, yes, I think we have a winner right there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

King Lindsay, Leslie's thread is not soliciting for pity, rather pointing out the double standards when it comes to V&S, no more and no less!

cooolconchita
May 13th, 2003, 01:15 PM
i've just made my comments known in the martinex def dokic thread.

-Sonic-
May 13th, 2003, 01:18 PM
I'm getting really, really, really sick of all these "double standard" and "the williams sisters are picked on" threads from a few complaining whiners. Just SHUT UP ALREADY. You have no case! nothing you say holds any weight because you're full of shit. You would think being the fans of the best players in the world would make you less irritable and sensitive. Yeah, Serena and Venus are just SOOO hard done by. Just leave it alone. what exactly is the aim of threads like this? To make me pity Venus and Serena? To make me feel sorry for the terrible, horrible, awful, disgraceful, malicious treatment they get on a MESSAGE BOARD? Or is one person's desire to just be a complete moronic bitch? ding ding ding, yes, I think we have a winner right there.

Beggin', I second the :worship:

Spot on King L.

servenrichie
May 13th, 2003, 01:24 PM
So what else is new?

King Lindsay
May 13th, 2003, 01:25 PM
The aim of this thread is to show that Richard Williams is King and he knows what he is talking about when he speaks of racism and his daughters in the WTA as we can all see racism is on this board towards the sisters also. Venus and Serena certainly does not need your pity they could buy you and sell you over and over again. You can call me whatever the hell you want. The truth hurts and you can't stand it that what I am saying is the truth when it comes to the sisters. Live with it. And yes baby, I do have a case.

If the aim of this thread was that, then it has failed. All it has shown is that you know not of what you speak.

I'm not for sale. And certainly not to Venus or Serena, good god.

Why would "the truth" hurt me, Leslie? I do not care about this issue. I don't care whether you're right or wrong. I just can't help but be amazed by the pointlessness/stupidity of the things you write. And I'm a little sick of it, too. Same thing over and over and over again. Redundant, you are.

leslie
May 13th, 2003, 01:27 PM
But people slag Jelly off to the high heavens anyway about what she says in her PC's!!! Why does it warent a thread.

It warrants a thread because theres such injustices towards the sisters and we need to point these injustices out whenever and whereever there are discrepancies. And I will continue to do that.

King Lindsay
May 13th, 2003, 01:27 PM
Quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
King Lindsay, Leslie's thread is not soliciting for pity, rather pointing out the double standards when it comes to V&S, no more and no less!

Okay, and why is she doing that? What's the point of doing that? To "solicit my pity"?

What Leslie is doing is pointing out the double standards in her mind. Apparently, she has dealt with a large amount of racism in her life and now sees it wherever. Hopefully one day she'll manage to realize that what happened to her was terrible, but there are not hidden racial undertones in EVERYTHING.

cooolconchita
May 13th, 2003, 01:29 PM
i don't care whether its venus, jelena or anne bloomin keothavong who says things like that - either way, it's not acceptable, and makes the tour look bad - so in theory, i support leslie. :)

gentenaire
May 13th, 2003, 01:32 PM
I agree with Leslie though, in a way. I noticed the BBC website and other journalists have called Jelena ungracious in defeat. I didn't hear them say that about Serena. There are clearly double standards, the sisters are being protected.

Shuji Shuriken
May 13th, 2003, 01:42 PM
anyone of you care for a good shag :devil:? I've been celebate for a while, and cariosity or SJW wouldn't give me any :sad:.

Cybelle Darkholme
May 13th, 2003, 01:49 PM
I'm getting really, really, really sick of all these "double standard" and "the williams sisters are picked on" threads from a few complaining whiners. Just SHUT UP ALREADY. You have no case! nothing you say holds any weight because you're full of shit. You would think being the fans of the best players in the world would make you less irritable and sensitive. Yeah, Serena and Venus are just SOOO hard done by. Just leave it alone. what exactly is the aim of threads like this? To make me pity Venus and Serena? To make me feel sorry for the terrible, horrible, awful, disgraceful, malicious treatment they get on a MESSAGE BOARD? Or is one person's desire to just be a complete moronic bitch? ding ding ding, yes, I think we have a winner right there.


the only moronic bitch I've seen so far is you... leslie made a point.... which is true... if you dont have the intelligence to see that what she said was true then dont take it out on her... the fact is when serena or venus pull out of a tournament you see a number of threads and they are derided for the most part by non fans.... however when some other player does the same you get encouragement...

if thats not a double standard I dont know what is... also I find it highly ironic you accuse leslie of bitching when your whole post is nothing but bitching.

Its so funny how people dont like inconsistencies pointed out to them.

Petersmiler
May 13th, 2003, 01:53 PM
[QUOTE='leslie']It warrants a thread because theres such injustices towards the sisters and we need to point these injustices out whenever and whereever there are discrepancies. And I will continue to do that.[/QUOTE

But surely these descrepencies also apply to everyone else on the tour? Jenny gets regularly pulverised for her comments, as did Martina in her day and even Lindsay!

So what is it you actually want? For Jelena to be publicly humiliated for her comments? For everyone to comment that V & S would never make such gaffs?

And surely the fact that fewer people criticise Jelena is due to the higher profile of the Williams sisters than that of lil Jelena, who's only just inside the top ten at the moment!

leslie
May 13th, 2003, 01:54 PM
If the aim of this thread was that, then it has failed. All it has shown is that you know not of what you speak.

I'm not for sale. And certainly not to Venus or Serena, good god.

Why would "the truth" hurt me, Leslie? I do not care about this issue. I don't care whether you're right or wrong. I just can't help but be amazed by the pointlessness/stupidity of the things you write. And I'm a little sick of it, too. Same thing over and over and over again. Redundant, you are.

If you are sick of it and do not care about the issue then, do not read my posts and do not reply to them like some other people are doing. By you replying to my thread tells me that you do care about the issue and what I am saying is true. Redundancy is my game I will keep saying it, and saying it over and over again and again. Redundant, there you have it. Sure is is pointless/stupid but true. Now have a wonderful day since I do not expect to see you here again.

Cybelle Darkholme
May 13th, 2003, 01:55 PM
Okay, and why is she doing that? What's the point of doing that? To "solicit my pity"?

What Leslie is doing is pointing out the double standards in her mind. Apparently, she has dealt with a large amount of racism in her life and now sees it wherever. Hopefully one day she'll manage to realize that what happened to her was terrible, but there are not hidden racial undertones in EVERYTHING.


no there's not but please how in the hell do you know when there's a racial undertone and when there is not unless you are part of the situation? it always amazes me that people who do not encounter racism or discrimination act like it doesnt exist or doesn't happen. I take it you are not a person of color. Its like men telling women there is no sexism. Its like straights telling gays there is no homophobia. oh no you didn't lose your job because your a flaming queen even though your new boss is a big homophobe. it couldn't possibly be homophobia! please.

for the record im not saying it is racism but I do know a double standard when I see one and it sucks and its wrong.

gentenaire
May 13th, 2003, 01:58 PM
I don't see the double standards, to be perfectly honest.

When one of the sisters pull out, threads are started about it. When someone else pulls out, threads are started about it and other threads are started complaining of double standards.

Mercury Rising
May 13th, 2003, 02:00 PM
I don't see the double standards, to be perfectly honest.

When one of the sisters pull out, threads are started about it. When someone else pulls out, threads are started about it and other threads are started complaining of double standards.
Indeed lol.

KL you're so right.

Ted of Teds Tennis
May 13th, 2003, 02:09 PM
Dava_Russianrule wrote:
But people slag Jelly off to the high heavens anyway about what she says in her PC's!!! Why does it warent a thread.

Because Leslie is part of the Cult of Williams. Basically, you're not allowed to say anything less than hagiolatrous about the Williamses, and you can only heap ridicule on everybody else.

If the Cult of Williams perceives the criticism given a player like Dokic to be even 0.1% less than the criticism given a Williams sister in a similar situation, out comes a thread like this. :rolleyes:

I'm off to put Leslie in my ignore list....

Cybelle Darkholme
May 13th, 2003, 02:12 PM
Look, I know this simple concept is hard to understand for some people (read some VENUS and SERENA fans), but this isn't a double standard, this is just logic. VENUS and SERENA are 2 mega stars, so if one of the 2 says and does something that can be perceived as negative of course the reaction won't be the same as another lower ranked player. Anyway, get over it. We hear the "double standard" song since 3 years on this board and the old sanex board and even listening to "American Life" is less boring than that.

But I don't post anymore here, so BYE, I'll come back when the boring Williams sisters will retire, because their annoying fans (who probably don't even like tennis) will go away with them.


sorry but I dont see any logic coming from you and thank goodness you dont post here anymore so we dont' get more of this crap. So to take your point to the extreme if George Bush slaps his wife in public and then Joe Blow does the same are you telling me that its more important that George Bush did it? That it doesn't matter that some unknown man's wife as abused as well? She should just be overlooked huh? Well I disagree. I and I'm sure leslie understands why the w/s get more press good and bad But that doesn't make it right. Does it? They didn't ask for the press good or bad.

servenrichie
May 13th, 2003, 02:14 PM
Dr. Martian Bagel wrote:

<QUOTE>
Look, I know this simple concept is hard to understand for some people (read some VENUS and SERENA fans), but this isn't a double standard, this is just logic. VENUS and SERENA are 2 mega stars, so if one of the 2 says and does something that can be perceived as negative of course the reaction won't be the same as another lower ranked player. Anyway, get over it. We hear the "double standard" song since 3 years on this board and the old sanex board and even listening to "American Life" is less boring than that.

But I don't post anymore here, so BYE, I'll come back when the boring Williams sisters will retire, because their annoying fans (who probably don't even like tennis) will go away with them.
</QUOTE>

I think the reason why you are no more reading the board is because Martina retired, but it sounds brave for you to blame it on V&S and their fans. Thank God she retired taking her annoying fans with her!!!

Anyway, YOU just sang the same song. 3 years ago, V&S were also heavily criticised, even though they werent the top players then. Saying that the disproportionate criciticisms that get thrown their way is because they are now the top women doesnt cut. The same people who doesnt see any double standards are the same people who foam on the mouth, when it comes to criticising V&S.
Reveal in your ignorant bliss!

leslie
May 13th, 2003, 02:17 PM
[QUOTE='leslie']It warrants a thread because theres such injustices towards the sisters and we need to point these injustices out whenever and whereever there are discrepancies. And I will continue to do that.[/QUOTE

But surely these descrepencies also apply to everyone else on the tour? Jenny gets regularly pulverised for her comments, as did Martina in her day and even Lindsay!

So what is it you actually want? For Jelena to be publicly humiliated for her comments? For everyone to comment that V & S would never make such gaffs?

And surely the fact that fewer people criticise Jelena is due to the higher profile of the Williams sisters than that of lil Jelena, who's only just inside the top ten at the moment!


I just want fairness when it comes to all the players. If you critized V&S critized the other players also. I want balance if we had balance here on this board I would never be so critical of other posters.

best best better
May 13th, 2003, 02:18 PM
When ANY player makes a comment like that, they are going to come in for some kind of criticism (quite rightly imo).

And as others have said, the way such comments are perceived and reported tends to be proportionate to their 'quotability'.

What surprises me is that Jelena and Conchi used to play doubles together.

Cybelle Darkholme
May 13th, 2003, 02:19 PM
I think the reason why you are no more reading the board is because Martina retired, but it sounds brave for you to blame it on V&S and their fans. Thank God she retired taking her annoying fans with her!!!

Anyway, YOU just sang the same song. 3 years ago, V&S were also heavily criticised, even though they werent the top players then. Saying that the disproportionate criciticisms that get thrown their way is because they are now the top women doesnt cut. The same people who doesnt see any double standards are the same people who foam on the mouth, when it comes to criticising V&S.
Reveal in your ignorant bliss!

I have to agree with this. Venus and Serena received more criticism than other players even when they were not in the top ten or twenty or even fifty. So I guess that nullifies the "bigger the star the more criticism"....

leslie
May 13th, 2003, 02:23 PM
Look, I know this simple concept is hard to understand for some people (read some VENUS and SERENA fans), but this isn't a double standard, this is just logic. VENUS and SERENA are 2 mega stars, so if one of the 2 says and does something that can be perceived as negative of course the reaction won't be the same as another lower ranked player. Anyway, get over it. We hear the "double standard" song since 3 years on this board and the old sanex board and even listening to "American Life" is less boring than that.

But I don't post anymore here, so BYE, I'll come back when the boring Williams sisters will retire, because their annoying fans (who probably don't even like tennis) will go away with them.

Now you see that's where it is wrong. You are segregating players by status and that is so wrong. Whether you are a lower rank player or high rank why should there be a differences. That is why we have racism because of this very same thing, segregation putting people in different classes because of the colour of their skin or their wealth and that is why racism will never die.

Petersmiler
May 13th, 2003, 02:37 PM
I just want fairness when it comes to all the players. If you critized V&S critized the other players also. I want balance if we had balance here on this board I would never be so critical of other posters.


Ok, I see your point. Though I must point out that there is a thread criticising her comments.

But I do think that maybe you should concentrate on what IS said about the williams, and not what ISN'T said about the others. I think you may find less vehement opposition to your message and won't wind up all those who seem to dislike them.

Anyhoo, just a thought!

:)

leslie
May 13th, 2003, 02:48 PM
Ok, I see your point. Though I must point out that there is a thread criticising her comments.

But I do think that maybe you should concentrate on what IS said about the williams, and not what ISN'T said about the others. I think you may find less vehement opposition to your message and won't wind up all those who seem to dislike them.

Anyhoo, just a thought!

:)

If I concentrate on what IS said about the sisters, and not what ISN'T said about others, wouldn't that be double standards on my part? and that is what I am trying to stomp out. I would be a hypocrite if I did that. All the players should be treated the same. I don't know maybe I missed read your post.

Equinox
May 13th, 2003, 02:55 PM
Serena didnt say anything bad about anyone. It's not the same. Even if she wasn't gracious Jelena was worse.

Petersmiler
May 13th, 2003, 03:05 PM
If I concentrate on what IS said about the sisters, and not what ISN'T said about others, wouldn't that be double standards on my part? and that is what I am trying to stomp out. I would be a hypocrite if I did that. All the players should be treated the same. I don't know maybe I missed read your post.

What I meant was, if people are posting unwarranted criticism of the sisters, then I think you have every right to feel annoyed and to start a thread ( or add to an existing one) stating your annoyance.

However, there were no threads started that said 'Why is Jelena not being criticised for her comments when, if it were Jennifer, there would be a huge hoohah in here.

Ditto, every other player on the tour? So why one about the Williams?

But I don't think we're actually going to agree on this one, apart from the fact that all the players should be treated the same.

CapFan#1
May 13th, 2003, 03:22 PM
I don't know... I think any player that disses another is in poor taste. However, I don't pay to much attention to the "quotes" in the press.. they take parts of quotes and spin them to make a "story".

I also don't see that there is a double standard for V+S. Anyone who has sat at the top of tennis ( Steffi, Monica pre-stabing) always comes under fire and close scrutiny. And anyone who draws a lot of attention to them selves (Anna K) always comes under fire and close scrutiny. I think that is what has happened to V+S. They are at the top of the game, and them and their father have drawn a lot of attention to themselves.

leslie
May 13th, 2003, 03:46 PM
What I meant was, if people are posting unwarranted criticism of the sisters, then I think you have every right to feel annoyed and to start a thread ( or add to an existing one) stating your annoyance.

However, there were no threads started that said 'Why is Jelena not being criticised for her comments when, if it were Jennifer, there would be a huge hoohah in here.

Ditto, every other player on the tour? So why one about the Williams?

But I don't think we're actually going to agree on this one, apart from the fact that all the players should be treated the same.

O.K. I see your point. And to be honest with you I do not have an answer for that. But you are right a thread should have been started about Jelena's comments. You are right had Jen said that the thread would just as long as the W/S thread.

leslie
May 13th, 2003, 03:50 PM
I don't know... I think any player that disses another is in poor taste. However, I don't pay to much attention to the "quotes" in the press.. they take parts of quotes and spin them to make a "story".

I also don't see that there is a double standard for V+S. Anyone who has sat at the top of tennis ( Steffi, Monica pre-stabing) always comes under fire and close scrutiny. And anyone who draws a lot of attention to them selves (Anna K) always comes under fire and close scrutiny. I think that is what has happened to V+S. They are at the top of the game, and them and their father have drawn a lot of attention to themselves.

What attention has V&S drawn to themselves? Do you mean winning GS is that the attention you are talking about?

Bероника
May 13th, 2003, 03:51 PM
The lack of respect that Dokic shows towards her opponents,I've never seen it in the Williams

MarcusRock
May 13th, 2003, 04:38 PM
A leslie thread never disappoints :) There's always a good mixture of http://www.angelfire.com/rock3/marcusrock/Curse.gif and http://www.angelfire.com/rock3/marcusrock/Psycho.gif to go around.

On that note, Petersmiler get out of this thread and stop making sense. People need to get back to fighting here.