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View Full Version : Top 10 - Who doesn't deserve to be there? And who should take their place?


shap_half
May 11th, 2003, 04:44 PM
I don' think at this point Daniela Hantuchova has any business being in the top 10 anymore. She's been playing soo poorly it hurts. And I mean unlike Jelena Dokic, Daniela doesn't seem to have any outside stress that could be affecting her.

I think Vera Zvonoreva will be in the Top 10 in a year with the way she's been playing. She's great on all surfaces and she's extremely powerful. I would expect her to be able to defeat top 15ers by the US Open.

Rtael
May 11th, 2003, 04:48 PM
Vera will not be going beyond around 20 if she can't ever beat anyone in the top 7 =P

per4ever
May 11th, 2003, 04:50 PM
the first one who still dares to say that Justine Henin-Hardenne doesn't belong in the top 10 gets a slap ;) lol

ns_Henin
May 11th, 2003, 04:50 PM
Vera should takes Daniela place
Dementieva should takes Anastasia place
yeah i think Dani deserves her place but she plays like a crap after her successfull moved to top 5.. Get better soon Dani, Get better soon Jelena :sad:

faboozadoo15
May 11th, 2003, 05:13 PM
a lot of the girls are in the top ten that i dont think belong there. monica has beaten chanda twice alone this year, has beaten mauresmo, and the only reason she is low is because she sprained her ankle and hasn't played at dokic pace. my opinion: chanda (though i love her), dani, and myskina are up there a little too high because of monica's injury, but i can't think of any other player outside the top 10 who really deserves to be there. who has vera beaten?

AjdeNate!
May 11th, 2003, 05:23 PM
Really from Chanda thru Seles is not the best right now... Not playing due to injuries, or some are just pathetically struggling. So, anyone 8-13 could be moved up/down.

GermanBoy
May 11th, 2003, 05:31 PM
I think, it`s difficult to say who deserves a Top 10 ranking and who not.
If you say that e. g. Myskina, Chanda or Hantuchova don`t deserve their ranking in the top ten you perhaps offend their fans.

IMO players like Chanda, Hantuchova and Myskina/Dokic - they both change the 10th/11th spot very often - wouldn`t be Top 10 without Monica`s injury and Hingis`retirement - is she or not :confused:

Myskina, Hantuchova and Chanda had their results to reach the Top 10 but they have great results one week and the week after they lose in their first match.

To mention some players who I think should be in Top 10 because of their achievements in their carreers or because of their names, I say:

Dementiewa perhaps
Martinez
Monica
Hingis
Coetzer perhaps

Nimi
May 11th, 2003, 05:36 PM
Martinez & Coetzer in the top ten now? What have you been drinking?

gladysharon
May 11th, 2003, 05:40 PM
the first one who still dares to say that Justine Henin-Hardenne doesn't belong in the top 10 gets a slap ;) lol

LOL! :D

calabar
May 11th, 2003, 05:45 PM
I disagree with the premise of this question. EVERY ranked deserves to be where they are. Please be reminded that the WTA's ranking system is not like figure skating where the scores are subjective. Every ranking position is empirically derived, hence the question of who deserves what is irrevelant. What has been confusing to many including some on this board is the purpose of the ranking system. The ranking system that has been in existence for over 25 years is NOT to determine who the "BEST" player is. For that reason, the system has been attacked and derided by many in the media and message boards. That's unfortunate. The ranking system, with all of its flaws works.

Peace

calabar
May 11th, 2003, 05:46 PM
I disagree with the premise of this question. EVERY ranked deserves to be where they are. Please be reminded that the WTA's ranking system is not like figure skating where the scores are subjective. Every ranking position is empirically derived, hence the question of who deserves what is irrevelant. What has been confusing to many including some on this board is the purpose of the ranking system. The ranking system that has been in existence for over 25 years is NOT to determine who the "BEST" player is. For that reason, the system has been attacked and derided by many in the media and message boards. That's unfortunate. The ranking system, with all of its flaws works.

Peace



Oops, I meant to say "EVERY ranked PLAYER deserves to be where they are"

SJW
May 11th, 2003, 05:48 PM
none of them deserve to be there

this is the real top 10

1. Elena Bovina (Rus)
2. Elena Dementieva(Rus)
3. Anna Kournikova(Rus)
4. Svetlana Kuznetsova(Rus)
5. Lina Krasnoroutskaya(Rus)
6. Dinara Safina(Rus)
7. Elena Likhovtseva(Rus)
8. Vera Douchevina(Rus)
9. Maria Kirilenko(Rus)
10. Tatiana Panova(Rus)

:)

GermanBoy
May 11th, 2003, 05:53 PM
Martinez & Coetzer in the top ten now? What have you been drinking?

I mentioned them because of their carreer achievements. Do you think Zwonarewa deserves a Top 10 ranking because she has reached two or three quarterfinals this season? :rolleyes:

hollywood7172
May 11th, 2003, 05:58 PM
it's extremely interesting that posters on this board think they have a right to claim who does or doesn't "deserve" to be in the top ten. most posters here aren't even registered with their nationl tennis associations, and they think they know who "deserves" a ranking or not.

i realize one can have his/her own opinions. but it is also my opinion that every girl in the top ten has earned those points placing them there. say what you will about the WTA ranking system, say what you will about how much those points mean, say what you will about how fair those points are. fact is, it's the same for all players. they all know EXACTLY how the system works and how to get the points they need to be top ten. if they are not top ten, they either don't care to go for the points to place them there, or they are incapable of getting the points. plain and simple.

:)

maccardel
May 11th, 2003, 05:59 PM
Well I think if you want an answer to who deserves to be there and who doesn't then you just have to wait a couple of weeks cos time reveals the truth and the time is now. Look at the last few weeks where we saw a lot "top ten-ers" fall. Now we know who have been faking the funk and who hasn't been faking it. Oh well.

GrahamD
May 11th, 2003, 06:02 PM
Daniela has reached 6 QF's (including the AO) and 1 SF so far this year. Steady if not spectacular with the odd shocker thrown inbetween. I think that's more than enough to justify a top ten place, and I certainly don't think Zvonereva can better that so far this year.

Vincent
May 11th, 2003, 06:32 PM
Daniela has reached 6 QF's (including the AO) and 1 SF so far this year. Steady if not spectacular with the odd shocker thrown inbetween. I think that's more than enough to justify a top ten place, and I certainly don't think Zvonereva can better that so far this year.
Well said, but she needs to do better to show people that she is a CONSISTENT top 10 players.
Go DANI :cool:

Whatzup
May 11th, 2003, 08:20 PM
The top 10 isn't there for nothing! Everyone who is in there has deserved it!!! They all have received the rankingpoints! :p :D

GermanBoy
May 11th, 2003, 08:23 PM
it's extremely interesting that posters on this board think they have a right to claim who does or doesn't "deserve" to be in the top ten. most posters here aren't even registered with their nationl tennis associations, and they think they know who "deserves" a ranking or not.


Don`t take it too serious! Perhaps the word "deserve" is not the best one used in this sentence. ;)

Fingon
May 11th, 2003, 08:33 PM
There is a clear difference between the ranking system and what most people perceives the ranking should be.

The ranking system, with all its flaws (it has a few) tries to measure performance.

People tend to look exclusively at tournaments wins, and forget about the rest, but getting to the semis, the finals, the quarters also counts.

I've seen posts comparing players just by the number of tournament they have won in a year, without considering the level of those tournaments, like winning 5 tier 5 is more than winning 1 tier 1.

That's why players like Capriati or Daniela don't look good on paper, because they haven't won a tournament in the last year but they have won matches, more matches (or more valuable matches) than the players behind them.

Martian Willow
May 11th, 2003, 08:48 PM
Um, hi.

I kind of understand the argument about how the rankings are an objective measurement, so players deserve whatever ranking they have, but the problem is that it's very hard to make a mathematical system work accurately. I mean, if they changed the points you got for each round, the rankings would be different. I'm sure the WTA tries to make to rankings reflect players performances as well as possible, but it's not perfect: for example, did Hingis really 'deserve' to be no1 for all that time?

Sorry if I haven't explained that very well.

selesfan
May 11th, 2003, 08:55 PM
I mentioned them because of their carreer achievements. Do you think Zwonarewa deserves a Top 10 ranking because she has reached two or three quarterfinals this season? :rolleyes:

Aren't the rankings based on results for this year? Then I would think that Amanda and Conchita are ranked where they deserve to be.

Why all the questions about who and who does not deserve to be in the top ten. The rankings have been this way for years, Dani is in the top ten because of her accumulated points, she can't help it if nobody else gined enough points to overtake her or if she is there because someone else happens to be injure.

faboozadoo15
May 11th, 2003, 08:56 PM
sorry about something in my post. i'm not saying that all the girls i mentioned dont deserve it, i just think monica and maybe someone else may deserve it more, but the rankings don't reflect that yet. dani has good results in all the slams, dokic plays like 30 events, and anya is consistent-- so i dont have any problem with them really. but the fact that monica has beatn chanda twice and yet is ranked 5 spots lower bothers me a little bit. but hey, thats life.

Nimi
May 11th, 2003, 08:58 PM
Also, the rankings do not reflect a player's quality, they reflect his/her achivements in the last 12 months. Conchita & Amanda will not reach the top 10 due to that.

Also i forgot that we were in a "comparing players' entire careers & making a top 10 rankings" thread :confused:

Kuti Kis&Monica
May 11th, 2003, 10:17 PM
In my view, the rankings in sports, especially in tennis, don't reflect totally the value of each player. In the case of Women in here, we all know for example that, if we're speaking about potential, Monica is a Top 10 player instead of Chanda or Myskina for example.
But these rankings are based on the regularity, or the supreme quality on great events (Williams). Every player knows it, so we can say that that, yes, Chanda, Daniela and Anastassia deserve their place, because if we're seeing the last 52 weeks, they accomplished some great results as you all know, i won't come in details on their performances.
So ok, Daniela is not presently in her best shape, but she deserves her rankings ... until she will repeat the same performances all along the rest of the season.
Conclusion: potentially, everyone can have his own opinion about the player who should be in the top 10 (in my case, Seles as i said), but technically, that's obvious, all the players who belongs to the top 10 deserve it. I find that is normal that the players who are travelling and working hard by playing a lots of tournaments with some good results (you can't be in the 10 without results, whatever the maneer to suceed it). In the case of Myskina, she could not stay in the top 10 by playing less tournaments. She's in the top 10 but condamned to play a lots of tournaments to survive in this top 10, there are consequences ; Daniela played so much next year, particularly at the end, that it's logical right now she's having troubles physically and mentally speaking. About Myskina, i feel the same thing, she shows less joy of play, another consequences of playing a lots.
That's why i think all these girls deserve top 10 : we can't imagine how hard it must be for hers, and it's a great accomplishment.
The real problem is that the perfect rankings don't exist and this one is far to be one of them. Whatever happens, girls, if they're not of top10 potentially, are obliged to play the game of the WTA: play, play, play.
But the WTA doesn't care: the show must go on...

jenglisbe
May 11th, 2003, 10:23 PM
Depends what you are looking at; Daniela's results haven't been poor the last few weeks (she has some QF appearances), and let's not forget she made the QF of the Aussie Open this year. All of those are top 8 results, so she deserves to be top 10. A few bad losses don't take away from her whole of 2003 (and then from her past 52 weeks).

As for Dementieva - beyond her one great result at a Tier 2 event, what has she done to deserve a top 10 ranking? Not much, which is why she isn't top 10.

jenglisbe
May 11th, 2003, 10:28 PM
Chanda Rubin this year:
two semis in Tier I events
one quarterfinal in a Tier 1 event
4th round of Aussie Open
**She is a solid player and deserves to be top 10 in my mind

Anastasia Myskina this year:
QF at Aussie Open
Won a Tier III title
Won a Tier IIII title
**She has many 1st round losses this year and not much big except her QF at the Aussie Open

selesfan
May 11th, 2003, 10:30 PM
Chanda certainly belongs in the top ten, she beat Justine this year also.

Alberto
May 11th, 2003, 10:32 PM
The Real Top 10 should be:

1.- Serena Williams (USA)
2.- Venus Williams (USA)
3.- Kim Clijsters (BEL)
4.- Justine Henin (BEL)
5.- Amelie Mauresmo (FRA)
6.- Elena Dementieva (RUS)
7.- Jennifer Capriati (USA)
8.- Meghann Shaughnessy (USA)
9.- Iroda Tulyaganova (UZB)
10.- Ai Sugiyama (JPN)

11.- Chanda Rubin (USA)
12.- Lindsay Davenport (USA)
13.- Anastasia Myskina (RUS)
14.- Daniela Hantuchova (SLO)

jenglisbe
May 11th, 2003, 10:35 PM
Alberto - What has Dementieva done to deserve a #6 ranking? Also, Daniela H has made the QF of the last 4 majors. She easily deserves to be top 8. A few bad losses don't change that.

Kuti Kis&Monica
May 11th, 2003, 10:54 PM
Psted by Alberto- The top 10 should be (...) 9. Tulyaganova, 10- Sugiyama
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :worship:

smarties
May 12th, 2003, 12:00 AM
Hey, If they are in the Top 10, it's because they deserved it. It's not because a certain player is in a funk (that happens to almost every player) that they don't belong there.

fammmmedspin
May 12th, 2003, 12:13 AM
The rankings reflect how well, by the ranking rules, players have done over the last 12 months. By definition each player deserves their ranking - unless they employed a body-double to play some of their matches!

You can argue to the cows come home that the system should be changed - with changed points for some tournaments or different quality points - or that some players exploit the rules by playing too few (big) or too many (smaller) tournaments. The ranking system can be changed to resort the top 20 as many times as you wish (although its pretty difficult to avoid Serena coming top and Kim and Justine getting near to her in any system that counts GS significantly higher than other tournaments)

The point about players not deserving their ranking seems to reflect a feeling that they are not playing well recently or that they have achieved their ranking by some means that does not reflect their ability or the best players are not getting an appropriate ranking.

The first argument substitutes a different timescale for 12 months - "player of the moment" or "player of the month"? Pretty difficult to measure in either case. If you want to look at a shorter period (this year) look at the one available - the race. Remember though the 12 month rankings allow more time to even out the effect of sickness, different surfaces and lack of consistency. Shorter term rankings may be no better at predicting who will do well in the next period on the next surface than the 12 month ranking which includes older performances.

The second argument reflects a subjective view about the value of the tournaments the player has won her points in (and particularly the value of GS versus participation on the tour) and/or the value of quality points. Its impossible to get a high ranking without earning enough points somewhere. Martina H just didn't get them at GS while her competitors failed to get enough anywhere else - even though they had opportunities to beat the number one player and she couldn't. If you are really worried that you can get points without beating top players look at the H2H results and the quality points (and note the lack of many differences in player's quality point ranking and overall rankings) - be aware though that who you play depends on who turned up and the draw.

Finally, there is the "X is a better player really" argument.The first variant of this is the "lets ignore consistency" one. Patty Schnyder in her best 2 weeks last year was the best player on the planet - overall though her ranking was around 20. Should she be in the top ten? - no. Should opposing players be aware that she might play like the number one - yes. Related to this is the historical or recent evidence argument. Monica (or Conchita) was the best player and should be ranked higher but for some strange losses, or they have been injured, and will soon come back because they are "better" than the interlopers who took their ranking slot. Unfortunately, this is not very helpful as "better" is a subjective judgement. Its an argument that requires some losses to count less than others and time sick to be counted against time spent by some other players winning matches. Its also an argument which is often based on experience that goes back beyond the 12 months of the rankings or rests on a recent leap forward. Past heroes do tire and future prospects do fade. Monica may play well enough to get into the top 10 again and Vera and Elena B may get to the top 10 but lets not put them there until they actually win the required matches.

ys
May 12th, 2003, 12:13 AM
Hantuchova, no question about that. The girl did nothing, really nothing since her fluke IW win.. Her QF os Slams were all courtesy of good draws. Watch her failing to defend them all, when she is given a normal draw...

Dokic.. Not much has to be said about that..

Others:

Henin - a solid Top 5 player, but not higher as long as she hasn't mastered US hardcourts..

Myskina - how can we even talk about someone being overranked when the player's rankings is growing steadily for already more than an year.

Capriati.. She hasn't won a tournament for long time, but who from outside of Top 7 would consider her as cheap quality points? She plays very strong schedule, and she loses to very strong players.

Dementieva.. She has to prove that her AI miracle win was something more than one week of sheer inspiration.

Rubin.. Results are there.. And being the only player who has beaten Serena on US hardcourts since 2001 puts her beyond any doubts..

rhz
May 12th, 2003, 12:27 AM
I think all top tenners deserve their spots!! they would not be there if they had not played well! but the argument should be who should be there inside the top ten because they could not maximized their potential.

1. Anna Kournikova (we know whe belongs there)
2. Iroda Tulyaganova ( she is a trouble maker, but she is not consistent enough)
3. Elena Dementieva (top ten material, but again not consistent enough, she needs to shape up her serve if she wants to be back there)

Vera Z.. even Justine admits.. but not her time yet

BOvina and Eleni D... if they can only be more consistent...

the key her consistency.. these players except Vera Z are not there because they are not week in and week out play to their potential

other to be mentioned...

Maleeva and Schnyder

also Seles (well we know why she's #12... not enough tournie monica!!!)

F-R-E-A-K
May 12th, 2003, 12:28 AM
Lets face it, this year there has been no real consistent proformance of any top 10 player. I think thats what is making the WTA TOUR so good this year. Last year you had to say it was quite boring seeing the same 2 excellent players (William sisters) in every grand slam final! This year things are slowly changing, we are seeing the other TOP 10 girls mixing and matching when it comes to winning.

This is the current TOP 10.

1 (1) SWilliams 6809
2 (3) CLIJSTERS 4519
3 (2) VWilliams 4508
4 (4) HENIN-HARDENNE 3917*
5 (5) Davenport 3304
6 (6) MAURESMO 3090
7 (7) CAPRIATI 2870
8 (8) RUBIN 2490
9 (9) HANTUCHOVA 2466
10 (11) DOKIC 2242

Players who shouldn`t be in the TOP 10 due to the performance of 2003 are:
D.Hantuchova
Y.Dokic
:cool: Regardless of family problems or wateva.. this is purely baesd on tennis performance and if family problems are that bad and affecting you or watev a TAKE TIME OFF and sort the issues of FAMILY AND WEIGHT/PHYSICAL problems!

2 players who should be replacing them are:
13 (13) DEMENTIEVA 1687 >>>> More consistent results.
22 (25) ZVONAREVA 1237.75 >>>> But she needs to beat the TOP 10 players.

Gowza
May 12th, 2003, 12:36 AM
as much as i want to say someone shouldn't be there and someone else would i can't. if the rankings say that player is there then based on this system they should be but obviously the system doesn't work very well in some cases.

players like dokic, rubin, hantuchova and myskina they are all questionable. dokic hasn't done anything special this year, hantuchova hasn't done much except for reaching the oz open quarters which has to count for something but at least hantuchova does well consistantly in the grand slams (although i have to wonder if she wasn't seeded so high would she get so far in the big events?), rubin hasn't done to much either and myskina well at least she is reaching finals and winning tournaments but also is doing well in the grand slams as her quarter final run at oz open says.

none of them really dominate the tour. like the last couple of years when dokic made her jump she was winning 4 or 5 events. none of these players consistantly win tournaments (maybe because they are only playing the big events?) i guess myskina is closer to this than any of the others so she should probably stay and i think hantuchova should stay while she is doing well in the grand slams.

but there isn't really a replacement for the others. no one outside the top 10 is consistantly winning titles at any level. we have different winners each week.

obviously the most consistent player has to be zvonareva as she has made it to 3 quarter finals of her last 4 tier 1 events and has also won a tier 3 title. so she is probably the only player worthy of getting near the top 10 but dementieva has also done quite well this year not as well as vera but she's done pretty well.

to me a top 10 player needs to be winning titles consistently like maybe 2 or 3 a year and get them on different surfaces. or they need to at least be almost unbeatable to anyone outside the top 10.

the last couple of years the top 10 has been so strong because no one has really been able to consistently beat any of the top 10 players and at this point no one outside the top 10 this year has that sort of record.

imo rubin, dokic, hantuchova shouldn't really be in the top 10 (hantuchova i have to weait and see what happens at RG) but no one should really replaces them either.

kournikovafan13
May 12th, 2003, 01:00 AM
rubin hasn't done to much

imo rubin, dokic, hantuchova shouldn't really be in the top 10

Chanda hasn't done too much? She's made the semi-finals of two Tier I's this year (Tokyo & Miami) and has had wins over Henin & Mauresmo. She did decently in Melbourne and has reached a few quarter-finals elsewhere. Aside from Scottsdale, she hasn't lost to a player that she has no business losing to. I think she definately deserves to be top 10.

Dokic, Hantuchova & Myskina all have either slumped or hit a plateau in their form, but there isn't anybody I can see replacing them anytime soon.

And re: Dementieva - I don't think she deserves a top 10 spot at all. To me, her win in Amelia was a little flukey. Hantuchova & Henin both played like total shite, and Lindsay, well, how well has she played in finals recently? (although that is the one match Elena played fantastically) And Elena's results this year outside of AI - with losses to Asagoe, Pratt, ect; tell me that she isn't ready to be in the top ten yet.

Ruski
May 12th, 2003, 01:11 AM
none of them deserve to be there

this is the real top 10

1. Elena Bovina (Rus)
2. Elena Dementieva(Rus)
3. Anna Kournikova(Rus)
4. Svetlana Kuznetsova(Rus)
5. Lina Krasnoroutskaya(Rus)
6. Dinara Safina(Rus)
7. Elena Likhovtseva(Rus)
8. Vera Douchevina(Rus)
9. Maria Kirilenko(Rus)
10. Tatiana Panova(Rus)

:)

Wow!!! It will be FANTASTIC!! :bounce:

But I will put my girl Alyona in the 1st place :hearts: :kiss: ....

and where is Vera?? :confused:

Gowza
May 12th, 2003, 01:13 AM
Chanda hasn't done too much? She's made the semi-finals of two Tier I's this year (Tokyo & Miami) and has had wins over Henin & Mauresmo. She did decently in Melbourne and has reached a few quarter-finals elsewhere. Aside from Scottsdale, she hasn't lost to a player that she has no business losing to. I think she definately deserves to be top 10.

Dokic, Hantuchova & Myskina all have either slumped or hit a plateau in their form, but there isn't anybody I can see replacing them anytime soon.

And re: Dementieva - I don't think she deserves a top 10 spot at all. To me, her win in Amelia was a little flukey. Hantuchova & Henin both played like total shite, and Lindsay, well, how well has she played in finals recently? (although that is the one match Elena played fantastically) And Elena's results this year outside of AI - with losses to Asagoe, Pratt, ect; tell me that she isn't ready to be in the top ten yet.


i meant in the way of winning titles. i tend to agree with you on dementieva but if i had to pick someone she would be on the list somewhere. i also forgot to mention tulyaganova who has done ok this year.

Gowza
May 12th, 2003, 01:16 AM
if i had a choice my top 10 would be

1)kuznetsova
2)zvonareva
3)douchevina
4)sharapova
5)safina
6)krasnoroutskaya
7)bovina
8)dementieva
9)myskina
10)kirilenko/bastrikova/linetskaya (to close to call at this point.

Rollo
May 12th, 2003, 01:22 AM
Based on 2003 results the obvious answer is Dokic. She's 11-11 (.500).
At this pace forget the top 10, she'd be lucky to be top 20 if the rankings took into account quality over quantity.

While Hantuchova may be performing below expectations. let me remind her detractors that her record this year is 18-9 (.666). For the most part she's been making the quarters. Is she a weak top tenner? sure-but that's why her ranking is at #9.

Myskina may be a weak top tenner also, but her 2003 record is 17-7, with 2 titles (tier 3 or 4 wins) and an Aussie Open quarter. I think a healthy Seles and Shaughnessy Will overtake her in the rankings, but it's a respectable record.

Dokic is the weakest link, but she won't even care I think. She's enjoying
her Brazilian boy toy and freedom from dracula dad :)

korben
May 12th, 2003, 01:26 AM
Hey ! Donīt be knocking Dani out of Top 10 if she plays like **** for couple months.

With same attitude JenCap and Chanda have no place in that group neither !

It is 12 month ranking so all that are there now have deserved there place. Damned :mad:

Rollo
May 13th, 2003, 12:31 AM
Jelena is now 11-12 for the year. She's running out of 18th event points to keep her ranking afloat.